Lojban Kids Show redux.

[Ali Sajid Imami]

Lojban Kids show evolves into LOJBAN VISUAL NOVEL!

Hi. basically i was thinking that instead of what we did last time,
i.e wasted a lot of time gathering resources for a potentially HUGE
project and burnt out before it began, we should start small.
We could make a small visual novel. All it requires is:

* A visual Novel engine
* A programmer for said VN engine
* A graphic designer
* A script writer.

For those thinking about this, we already have the first two. Ren'Py
is an excellent VN engine and I am the programmer, although my lojban
is a bit rusty.

I made a prototype here:
ww.nhmag.org/lojbo

I was thinking we could do it in episodic format and release them over
lojban.org.

for the links to old documents, here's a bundle for them.
http://bitly.com/yhlCO8

hit me in IRC if you want to help

regards
banseljaj

[Escape Landsome]

This is certaily a great way to teach Lojban !

By the way, this might be out of the topic, but which software did you
use to create this ? Are there some other instances of the same kind
of software somewhere else ? Even if not about lojban ??

Thanks !

--esc

[Ali Sajid Imami]

Ren'Py. It's python based and full stack. Nothing to add.

try renpy.org

And This being just a demo, I intend to modify the opening and ending
sequences to.

[Remo Dentato]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Ali Sajid Imami
<ali.saj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lojban Kids show evolves into LOJBAN VISUAL NOVEL!
>
> Hi. basically i was thinking that instead of what we did last time,
> i.e wasted a lot of time gathering resources for a potentially HUGE
> project and burnt out before it began, we should start small.

I think is very neat! You collected a lot of information about
jbogugde that would be very nice to have all together in a single
story.

Had you already decided for an order of topics? I'm still in doubt
which argument to introduce first. Starting from the alphabeth seems
too boring, jumping directly into bridi (as the Wave lessons) seems
too big of a step.

[la .lindar.]

Can we also web-embed this on lojban.org so we don't have to distribute executable files? remod has been working on a comic that I think would do a lot better in this presentation. The visual style is extremely appealing, but the plot / writing is still lacking severely. Could we perhaps combine forces to do this 'visual novel'? There's also supposed to be audio, which we can pull off later or keep to a minimum. I'd really like to see this entirely in Lojban using very simple grammar at first. We already have a sizable community that speaks at least some Lojban, and those that don't can quickly work up to being able to follow along. We have a really large setting already in place, so why not make use of it?

[Jacob Errington]

These are the instances in which I really would like all the chat in #lojban and #ckule to be logged, not just the lojban text. We could actually base plot off of real individuals' learning experiences; it would make everything less artificial, I think.

I don't think that making the plot *about* learning lojban would be particularly interesting, at least for those who have simply reached the phase where the acquisition of vocabulary and quick speech patterns is most important. A plot about, hmm, lojbanist guerrillas trying to overthrow government would be interesting :P

I do agree though, it could be very beginner-friendly, which the grammar getting progressively more complicated as the story advances. This would definitely appeal to nintadni, for whom, in my opinion, there's unfortunately too little reading material.

All this to say that I'd be interesting in writing plot and proofreading/editing.

I hope this turns out :D

mu'o mi'e la tsani

[kozmikreis]

Regarding plot, the pilot I wrote during the first iteration is more of a space adventure: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Figgelppx0xep5HC7GRConr445BHq3Oycb6uAB8tL2Y/edit?hl=en_US

For many kids I'd think this would be more appealing than themes based around geurillas and governments, but it largely depends on the age demographic a kids' show is aiming for I suppose :-)

kozmikreis

[CosmicRay]

Thinking about it, your idea is brilliant and would complement the original plot perfectly.

Back then, we discussed having a Dora The Explorer type of series (but less crappy) aimed at 8 year olds, but with parallel story arcs to satisfy older audiences.

How about this: Earth-based disaffected Lojbanists who have been denied access to, or even been ejected from, the utopian life on the space station would be disgruntled to say the least.  Seeing as the government is aware of Lojgugde but appears to do nothing about its existence bar cover it up, they are seen by the angry Lojbanists to be complicit in their repressal.  Now, they decide to unite and attempt to set up their *own* Lojbanic state, on Earth...

kozmikreis

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[la .lindar.]

Why would we reject people?

[CosmicRay]

Maybe for speaking Esperanto, loudly, in a cinema.

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On 2 Feb 2012, at 09:39, "la .lindar." <lindar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would we reject people?

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[CosmicRay]

More seriously, what would be done with criminally insane people, or evil infiltrators hell bent on exposing the existence of the space station?  (R/)ejection may be the only solution.

kozmikreis

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[selpa'i]

Rejection, war, taking over the world.. those things don't strike me as very positive and certainly aren't things I'd want to be associated with.
Why is it that every story needs war in it? It's not as if positive topics were boring, you know?
I always thought of the Lojban community as being very friendly and welcoming, but all this just sounds very negative, not to mention you seem to want this to be for children. I don't see why we should expose children to war, fighting, rebellions, hatred, etc. Instead, why not focus on ... Love and Tolerance?

-- 
.i su'o da ro roi me zo'e moi

[CosmicRay]

No, no, no, the plot for the *Kids'* show is pretty much all sweetness and light.  Honest :-)

The darker story arcs are intended for mature audiences only, and there will be plenty of positivity to counterbalance and ultimately overcome dark forces.

We must always bear in mind that our "community" will be judged by things like our works of fiction, so yes, love and tolerance ftw!

kozmikreis

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[Ali Sajid Imami]

The darker story arcs seem unfeasible because they would require a
different line of writing.

As for web-embed, I found this handy language. http://processing.org/

I haven't used it much, but it's pretty easy and it's based on java.
We can make a java webstart of it too.

As for the style, I vote for Dora The Explorer, but with real life
audience interaction, instead of an invisible hand moving a mouse
pointer on screen.

And Remo, I would love for you to help out with another of my
projects.

On Feb 2, 4:06 pm, CosmicRay <c...@cosmicray.co.uk> wrote:
> No, no, no, the plot for the *Kids'* show is pretty much all sweetness and light.  Honest :-)
>
> The darker story arcs are intended for mature audiences only, and there will be plenty of positivity to counterbalance and ultimately overcome dark forces.
>
> We must always bear in mind that our "community" will be judged by things like our works of fiction, so yes, love and tolerance ftw!
>
> kozmikreis
>
> --
> Sent from my iPhone
>

> On 2 Feb 2012, at 10:45, selpa'i <sela...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rejection, war, taking over the world.. those things don't strike me as very positive and certainly aren't things I'd want to be associated with.
> > Why is it that every story needs war in it? It's not as if positive topics were boring, you know?
> > I always thought of the Lojban community as being very friendly and welcoming, but all this just sounds very negative, not to mention you seem to want this to be for children. I don't see why we should expose children to war, fighting, rebellions, hatred, etc. Instead, why not focus on ... Love and Tolerance?
>
> > Am 02.02.2012 10:50, schrieb CosmicRay:
>
> >> More seriously, what would be done with criminally insane people, or evil infiltrators hell bent on exposing the existence of the space station?  (R/)ejection may be the only solution.
>
> >> kozmikreis
>
> >> --
> >> Sent from my iPhone
>
> >> On 2 Feb 2012, at 09:47, CosmicRay <c...@cosmicray.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>> Maybe for speaking Esperanto, loudly, in a cinema.
>
> >>> --
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>

> >>> On 2 Feb 2012, at 09:39, "la .lindar." <lindartheb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Why would we reject people? --
> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.

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[david demartin]

doi selpa'i : even for children... I don't think you'd want to get read of War, the Boogyman, or in general, of things that are not right. If everything's all right from the very begining, there is nothing to do, no compelling story to make. Teletubbies will be for ever lame because they lack a big bad wolf... and what use would be pinky and brain, if they weren't up to take over the world ?

I even suspect that if you don't portray a real negative figure, like an evil clawed dragon or a perverted cannibalistic teletubbie, something worth fighting against, the kids themselves would soon fill themselves the gap of the bad guy (and fancy themselves as some sort of teletubbie nemesis). 

The reason is simply that a world were everything's all right is just wrong (even for a small kid). It just doesn't match the way things are (or the way things feel anyway).  

So much so, that if you try hard enough to convince someone that "everything is fine" just the way it is (having a job and going bowling on the week ends), that person might well turn into a suicidal mass murderer, just for the heck of it (like those kids in Colombine high school). 

Why do you think a fairly normal guy (Anders Breivik) in one of the comfiest countries in the world (Norway) spent years cultivating the fantasy of a muslim plot to take over Europe... why would he want to disrupt so badly the society he lived in ? 

my guess is: because "whatever people said", Brevik new there was still something wrong, something that needed unmasking it and killing it. The moron was dramatically mistaken... but I think it is food for thought. 

conclusion: please, slaughter some teletubbies before it is too late :-)   

 

mi'e david

co'o

2012/2/2 selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de>

[Paul]

From an author's point of view common enemies and their machinations make for an excellent stream of plot devices and also act as highly potent points of sympathy/unification between the passive observer (the reader/watcher) and the protagonists.  Vis. Harry Potter and pals vs. Voldemort et al.  Yes it's trashy fiction but it's compelling and you can't help siding with the good guys.

kozmikreis

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[la .lindar.]

Please have a look over what existing script we have and let me know what you would change.

[Paul]

I found a neat little HTML5/JS-based graphic novel engine, "VN-Canvas".

I put the demo at http://cosmicray.co.uk/vncanvas_0.1.4/demo_vn.html for trying out on iOS but the UI doesn't appear to bind any click events, only mouse, though I'm sure that's easily fixed. Works well in desktop browsers. Overall it looks OK to me, opinions?

kozmikreis

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[la .lindar.]

Fantastic!

I absolutely don't want to do that character + background thing that they do, though. I want it to be actual comic panels with poses and stuff.

[Ali Sajid Imami]

Kozmikreis, AWESOME! Good Job. :)

lindar, by comic you mean static? Or like motion comics?

[la .lindar.]

Static. We're just doing frames. We may do -some- animation (like camera movements [panning?] and some small motions) later on.

[kozmikreis]

I'm not sure what that weird parallax effect is about other than to distract.  It'll be easy to turn off no doubt.

banseljaj - does the underlying JS array style of pseudo markup language look like something you'd be happy using?

remod - could you supply your gorgeous artwork?

kozmikreis

On 3 Feb 2012, at 18:41, la .lindar. wrote:

Static. We're just doing frames. We may do -some- animation (like camera movements [panning?] and some small motions) later on.

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[Jonathan Jones]

It's not his artwork. As he said, he used a program called ComiPo, which did all the drawing for him.

to pu benji ti fo lo mi me la.android. samcku toi

mu'o mi'e.aionys.

[kozmikreis]

Hmm, he said, "I use a long process involving four software: ComiPo!, Second LIfe, Gimp and Inkscape. It takes me two or three days at least to make a page" - I may be wrong but I don't construe that as a program doing all the drawing for him.

kozmikreis

[Jonathan Jones]

I looked at ComiPo. All the characters at the least were done by it.

He also said he sucks at drawing, which is a big hint in and of itself.

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[la .lindar.]

Either way, please collaborate on the art. I'm still waiting on the cover page. Figure out something that works for all of you.

[kozmikreis]

Fair enough, but it's not just characters that need drawing, it's backgrounds, items that can be interacted with by characters, and various incidentals.

Artists: please step forward and show us your skills :-)

kozmikreis

[Ali Sajid Imami]

kozmikreis:
I'll have to learn it, but sure. I can do it.
And ComiPo lloks nice.

On Feb 4, 4:30 am, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I looked at ComiPo. All the characters at the least were done by it.
>
> He also said he sucks at drawing, which is a big hint in and of itself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 4:23 PM, kozmikreis <kozmikr...@lojban.org.uk> wrote:
> > Hmm, he said, "I use a long process involving four software: ComiPo!,
> > Second LIfe, Gimp and Inkscape. It takes me two or three days at least to
> > make a page" - I may be wrong but I don't construe that as a program doing
> > all the drawing for him.
>
> > kozmikreis
>
> > On 3 Feb 2012, at 21:58, Jonathan Jones wrote:
>
> > It's not his artwork. As he said, he used a program called ComiPo, which
> > did all the drawing for him.
>
> > to pu benji ti fo lo mi me la.android. samcku toi
>
> > mu'o mi'e.aionys.

[Remo Dentato]

Well, as ayonis said it's very hard to make distinctive characters
with ComiPo (it's its greatest weakness) and I'm really working hard
to make the comics look passable.

There are other options though. Kozmikreis example is great in using
3d models (not sure if you used Daz Studio or Poser) and those can be
customized. This is a good example
http://inhermajestysservice.thecomicseries.com .

I've seen others using models from Miku Miku Dance or Second Life but
much less satisfactory results (imho).

One might even use something more abstract as "Strip Generator"
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/stripgenerator/strip/57/84/06/00/00/full.png).
I already checked with them and they are fine with redistribtion of
the images outside their site as long is not commercial).

If I can help with the startup on using ComiPo I'll be happy to, but
maybe it would be better to wait for the ability to import 3D models
(which the Japanese version already has) to see if we can make some
more original artwork.

remod

[Jonathan Jones]

Or, alternatively, we can find someone who can, you know, draw.

[kozmikreis]

I can draw, several people can draw, but I want something that is drawn well.  remod's artwork looks good, irrespective of the methods by which it came about.  Do you have a positive contribution to add?  Stating the obvious is…  Obvious.

remod: I didn't create that demo, that was by the person who wrote the graphic novel engine, and it appears they in turn "borrowed" the imagery from games.

kozmikreis

[rden...@gmail.com]

Il giorno , Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Or, alternatively, we can find someone who can, you know, draw.

Yes, I didn't think about actual drawing :)

As I said, I can't, so I have to resort to some other option

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 2:22 AM, kozmikreis <kozmi...@lojban.org.uk> wrote:

I can draw, several people can draw, but I want something that is drawn well. remod's artwork looks good, irrespective of the methods by which it came about.

That's an invalid statement. It isn't remod's artwork. In order for it to be his, it would have to have been created by him. It wasn't. All of the artwork was created by other people, remod merely paid for the permission to use it. His work was putting the parts together.
 

Do you have a positive contribution to add?  Stating the obvious is…  Obvious.

Obviously. :)

Let's see.... something positive.... Okay, how about this. www.reallifecomics.com is a webcomic done by someone who professes no artistic talent. It's made using SVG images put together into a comic, and entirely done in Photoshop. (Or Paintshop, I can't remember exactly, but it's an Adobe program- whichever one The gIMP is more like). In my own opinion, the comic's look is "good".

It wouldn't be hard for us to do something similar.

remod: I didn't create that demo, that was by the person who wrote the graphic novel engine, and it appears they in turn "borrowed" the imagery from games.

kozmikreis

On 4 Feb 2012, at 09:02, Jonathan Jones wrote:

Or, alternatively, we can find someone who can, you know, draw.

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, as ayonis said it's very hard to make distinctive characters
with ComiPo (it's its greatest weakness) and I'm really working hard
to make the comics look passable.

There are other options though. Kozmikreis example is great in using
3d models (not sure if you used Daz Studio or Poser) and those can be
customized. This is a good example
http://inhermajestysservice.thecomicseries.com .

I've seen others using models from Miku Miku Dance or Second Life but
much less satisfactory results (imho).

One might even use something more abstract as "Strip Generator"
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/stripgenerator/strip/57/84/06/00/00/full.png).
I already checked with them and they are fine with redistribtion of
the images outside their site as long is not commercial).

If I can help with the startup on using ComiPo I'll be happy to, but
maybe it would be better to wait for the ability to import 3D models
(which the Japanese version already has) to see if we can make some
more original artwork.

remod

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[Remo Dentato]

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 10:22 AM, kozmikreis <kozmi...@lojban.org.uk> wrote:

> remod: I didn't create that demo, that was by the person who wrote the
> graphic novel engine, and it appears they in turn "borrowed" the imagery
> from games.

I see. That's common to use 3D games (like I do with SL).

If you can draw, why don't you try to sketch a couple of characters?
Maybe other will be able to help too.

Backgrounds could still be taken from other sources but characters
will give an unique look to the work.

[kozmikreis]

On 4 Feb 2012, at 09:47, Jonathan Jones wrote:

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 2:22 AM, kozmikreis <kozmi...@lojban.org.uk> wrote:

I can draw, several people can draw, but I want something that is drawn well. remod's artwork looks good, irrespective of the methods by which it came about.

That's an invalid statement. It isn't remod's artwork. In order for it to be his, it would have to have been created by him. It wasn't. All of the artwork was created by other people, remod merely paid for the permission to use it. His work was putting the parts together.

His work is a derivative of other sources as he stated, and those source pieces were brought together in a novel and artistic way.  Derivative works of art are still art.  Semantics aside, the output artwork looks good, and for the purposes we're discussing my qualitative judgment is it is sufficient.  YMMV.

Do you have a positive contribution to add?  Stating the obvious is…  Obvious.

Obviously. :)

Let's see.... something positive.... Okay, how about this. www.reallifecomics.com is a webcomic done by someone who professes no artistic talent. It's made using SVG images put together into a comic, and entirely done in Photoshop. (Or Paintshop, I can't remember exactly, but it's an Adobe program- whichever one The gIMP is more like). In my own opinion, the comic's look is "good".

It wouldn't be hard for us to do something similar.

Yep, that looks good to me too.  Photoshop is the closest Adobe product to GIMP, Illustrator is close, and Paintshop is from a different vendor.  Are the SVG source images his own?  Would you be willing to have a try at creating a few panels this way?

kozmikreis

[Remo Dentato]

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 11:04 AM, kozmikreis <kozmi...@lojban.org.uk> wrote:
> Photoshop is the closest Adobe product to
> GIMP, Illustrator is close, and Paintshop is from a different vendor.  Are
> the SVG source images his own?  Would you be willing to have a try at
> creating a few panels this way?

The free option that is closest to Illustrator is Inkscape, it uses
SVG as its native format.

remod

[Remo Dentato]

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's an invalid statement. It isn't remod's artwork. In order for it to be
> his, it would have to have been created by him. It wasn't. All of the
> artwork was created by other people, remod merely paid for the permission to
> use it. His work was putting the parts together.

Not sure what's your problem with this, ayonis.

Maybe I gave the impression that I had a software doing all the work
for me, but if you give a try to ComiPo (there's a trial version)
you'll see that it's not exactly this way.

For example, I'm not using stock backgrounds (the ones that come with
the software) instead, for each panel I took one or more snapshots in
SL from the angle I imagined the panel to be drawn. Then I process
them in Gimp to make them match the tone of the characters.

Characters have been customized to the extent that ComiPo allows it
(which is not much, alas) and they need to be placed correctly to
match the perspective of the snapshots taken in SL.

You might also have noticed that the characters are not just placed in
front of the background (as it often happens with this type of comics)
but they are "embedded" into it, meaning that once the character is
placed in the right position I have to export separate layers and make
the "front" part emerge from the background.

Also the lettering is done in Inkscape because the ComiPo support for
lettering is very poor.

I claim no artristry, but if I gave the impression that I have a way
to instruct the computer to make comics on my behalf, that's not the
case. I just wanted to create something looking decent, I think the
process I've devised gives me the results I was looking for.

remod

[Jonathan Jones]

Yes. All the characters, scripts, etc. are wholly made by Greg Dean- including the web page design, except where it's obviously not (like the ads).
 

Would you be willing to have a try at creating a few panels this way?

I could try, but my time is rather limited what with school.
 

kozmikreis

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[Jonathan Jones]

I don't have a problem. I'm just saying it's not your art. Your work is a collage, not a painting.

remod

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[kozmikreis]

I've updated a couple of the project docs:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18hS5G3Qn7i4uqqZHMwZSk87B79jOxHeX_Yt-0u5wBaE/edit

"Alpha" is now "Guy" or {.gais.}

"Beta" is still "Beta" (or "Hope"?) or {la ka pacna}

Added links to the proposed graphic novel engine and demo.

As for who's on the staff, the list on the root doc goes back to the now dusty beginnings of the project and is out of date.  The project has changed format to that of a semi-interactive graphic novel for now - far less work will be required to create it but we still need help chiefly with:

* Character artwork

* Background artwork

* Incidental art

* A lesson plan, probably bite-sized conversational lessons drawn from a hacked up version of this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RozVcLwrmIv3eJlcYoryqsK9vEJap4ZOGbxArQn-u9k/edit?authkey=COPUsZYH&hl=en_US

If you want to contribute to any of these things, even if it's just a little, make yourself known :-)

kozmikreis

[Pierre Abbat]

On Sunday, February 05, 2012 09:55:53 kozmikreis wrote:
> I've updated a couple of the project docs:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18hS5G3Qn7i4uqqZHMwZSk87B79jOxHeX_Yt-0u5

> wBaE/edit "Alpha" is now "Guy" or {.gais.}

> "Beta" is still "Beta" (or "Hope"?) or {la ka pacna}
> Added links to the proposed graphic novel engine and demo.

I suggest "la .kampacn.". Main reason is, it works better when she gives her
family names: "mi'e la .kampacn.daicom.bo'erod." (of course those are
fulanics, not her real names). Secondary reason is, it allows for a joke on
the name: "Yes it sounds like Compassion, but it means Hope."

> As for who's on the staff, the list on the root doc goes back to the now
> dusty beginnings of the project and is out of date. The project has
> changed format to that of a semi-interactive graphic novel for now - far
> less work will be required to create it but we still need help chiefly
> with:
>
> * Character artwork
> * Background artwork
> * Incidental art
> * A lesson plan, probably bite-sized conversational lessons drawn from a
> hacked up version of this:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RozVcLwrmIv3eJlcYoryqsK9vEJap4ZOGbxArQ
> n-u9k/edit?authkey=COPUsZYH&hl=en_US

I'd be interested in making bite-size lessons. Also I have some skill in POV-
Ray. Would you be interested in, say, a panorama of the inside of the space
station? Or a view of its outside?

Pierre
--
Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen.

[Paul]

Hi Pierre,

I like the name suggestion, good word play, though the joke is biased to English speakers.

Regarding the lessons, superb, I can work with you to ensure the story fits to the lessons too.

As for POV-Ray and the space station, yes please on both counts! The space station is the main stage for future episodes, so I may ask for many more views of it from different standpoints. Depending on the visual style we settle on there may be some manual post-processing involved by myself or others but I'd love to see some renders of it ASAP. Are you happy to be the chief station architect as before?

kozmikreis

--
Sent from my iPhone

[Ali Sajid Imami]

Thanks a lot pierre.

On Feb 6, 6:47 am, Pierre Abbat <p...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 05, 2012 09:55:53 kozmikreis wrote:
> > I've updated a couple of the project docs:
>

> >https://docs.google.com/document/d/18hS5G3Qn7i4uqqZHMwZSk87B79jOxHeX_...

> > wBaE/edit "Alpha" is now "Guy" or {.gais.}
> > "Beta" is still "Beta" (or "Hope"?) or {la ka pacna}
> > Added links to the proposed graphic novel engine and demo.
>
> I suggest "la .kampacn.". Main reason is, it works better when she gives her
> family names: "mi'e la .kampacn.daicom.bo'erod." (of course those are
> fulanics, not her real names). Secondary reason is, it allows for a joke on
> the name: "Yes it sounds like Compassion, but it means Hope."
>
> > As for who's on the staff, the list on the root doc goes back to the now
> > dusty beginnings of the project and is out of date.  The project has
> > changed format to that of a semi-interactive graphic novel for now - far
> > less work will be required to create it but we still need help chiefly
> > with:
>
> > * Character artwork
> > * Background artwork
> > * Incidental art
> > * A lesson plan, probably bite-sized conversational lessons drawn from a
> > hacked up version of this:

> >https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RozVcLwrmIv3eJlcYoryqsK9vEJap4ZOG...

[Pierre Abbat]

On Monday, February 06, 2012 05:50:02 Paul wrote:
> Hi Pierre,
>
> I like the name suggestion, good word play, though the joke is biased to
> English speakers.

Of course some other names could be jokes in Spanish or Russian...

> Regarding the lessons, superb, I can work with you to ensure the story fits
> to the lessons too.

Sounds good. I have some experience teaching English informally to a
foreigner; this will be similar. He asks me something like "�Qu� es la
diferencia entre malo y cama?", which makes no sense until I figure out he's
asking how to pronounce the difference between two English words whose
translations he gave. The kids probably won't be delving deep into formal
grammar, but manipulating example sentences that are relevant to their world.

> As for POV-Ray and the space station, yes please on both counts! The space
> station is the main stage for future episodes, so I may ask for many more
> views of it from different standpoints. Depending on the visual style we
> settle on there may be some manual post-processing involved by myself or
> others but I'd love to see some renders of it ASAP. Are you happy to be
> the chief station architect as before?

Of course!

Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

On Monday, February 06, 2012 05:50:02 Paul wrote:
> Hi Pierre,
>
> I like the name suggestion, good word play, though the joke is biased to
> English speakers.

Of course some other names could be jokes in Spanish or Russian...

Or Arabic, or Japanese, or Jewish, or Afrikaans....

[kozmikreis]

On 6 Feb 2012, at 18:58, Pierre Abbat wrote:

> On Monday, February 06, 2012 05:50:02 Paul wrote:
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> I like the name suggestion, good word play, though the joke is biased to
>> English speakers.
>

> Of course some other names could be jokes in Spanish or Russian…

For this project let's make it a guiding principle, it'll be like a hidden Easter egg for the kids that realise it :-)

>> Regarding the lessons, superb, I can work with you to ensure the story fits
>> to the lessons too.
>
> Sounds good. I have some experience teaching English informally to a

> foreigner; this will be similar. He asks me something like "¿Qué es la

> diferencia entre malo y cama?", which makes no sense until I figure out he's
> asking how to pronounce the difference between two English words whose
> translations he gave. The kids probably won't be delving deep into formal
> grammar, but manipulating example sentences that are relevant to their world.

Good stuff. I'm wondering if we should also utilise the graphic novel engine's ability to include interactive parts like multiple choice pop quizzes, would they be a boon or a burden?

>> Are you happy to be
>> the chief station architect as before?
>
> Of course!

Welcome back on board! Everyone: if anyone has any architectural questions or suggestions, as far as I'm concerned .pier. has final veto. I'm going to do my best not to impose my storyline's needs onto his decisions this time around :-)

kozmikreis

[Jacob Errington]

Well, an interesting feature of visual novels is that the choices can be used to forge relationships of different strengths with different characters, which in turn influences the events taking places later on. These choices typically come in the form of responses to questions asked directly to the main character, whom I'd guess is Guy. For example upon meeting a new character, Guy has to say something, either [lo pluka mi li'i penmi] or colder things like simply [coi] or maybe meanest of all [je'e] (which I'd construe as being rude; I mean who answers to "Hi nice to meet you!" with "Yeah"?!)

Also, I'd figure that in a 100% lojbanic environment that regular cmevla would fall out of use for names, especially those of lojban origin. It seems to me like the real purpose of cmevla is to allow for inclusion of natlang names without resorting to using clunky stuff like zoi and friends, at the small cost of losing a bit of the original pronunciation or adding an extra consonant. Otherwise, the only use I see for cmevla is to use CVC rafsi as nicknames, but in my experience this isn't common right now either. But then again, only few have gismu names.

The [kampacn] two-language joke is pretty neat, gotta say. I think, though, that [ka pacna] or [kampacna] are just as nice as names. Maybe in lobgugde there will be a sort of natlangisation when it comes to nicknames, where [kampacna] gets reduced into [kampa].

Out of curiosity, why was it called [lobgugde]/[lojgugde] and not [jbogu'e]/[lobgu'e]?

mu'o mi'e la tsani

[la .lindar.]

I think the 'compassion' joke is lame. Anglophonic joke FTL. Personally I think we need some affirmative action in here for non-USians.
I think jbogugde was picked because that's my dialect / idiom. I was the one that came up with the idea for the show, so it ended up being written that way a lot.
As for the multiple choice aspect, we are not going to elect to take that route for now. A lot of people have mentioned the idea and it is certainly a good one, but we are electing not to use it at the moment. When I get a working embedded player and a cover sheet we will discuss those other ideas.

We need fewer ideas and more artists. We need rigging, models, and concept art. If you need direction, please talk to kozmikreis and he will update you on what has been done in concept previously and what we want. All other suggestions will be met with PR-esque non-answers or vague dismissals. Thank you!

[Jacob Errington]

That sounds like a very fair plan of action. Although the joke is funny, I think, it's wise not really to make a point of it; jokes should be as unbiased as possible. 

Anyhow, I'm afraid I won't be able to really help out, given that not only are my skills in this aspect basically nonexistent, but my time is too scarce.

I'll be following this though, and I hope it turns out.

Lindar, perhaps you could put up posts on our social networks to inform the larger community of this? Maybe some of our other followers would be interested, even though they aren't quite acquainted with the language.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

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[Paul]

The graphic novel engine now seems to work under iOS thanks to some changes the developer shared with me for early testing.  Can someone tell me how it fares under Android now please?

Regarding the Lobgugde name, iirc Lindar's decision on it partly came from the ease of guessing a more correct pronunciation for English speakers unfamiliar with Lojban phonetics.

As for Lindar's steer on what to focus on in the here and now, agreed.

kozmikreis

--

Sent from my iPhone

[kozmikreis]

Widening the net on finding a character artist, I'm guessing most people will know someone outside Lojbanic circles who is good at drawing. Can I ask you to ask the artists in your life to consider doing artwork for a project that can, in return, give them:

* Credit for their work, and a link.
* A talking point in their portfolio.
* Multilingual exposure.
* Better sleep at night knowing they've done good in the world :-)

The work required is not all that intense - we will be wanting images of characters emoting and in some differing postures, angles and attire, but they only get overlaid on the backgrounds at runtime and are re-used.

Thanks,

kozmikreis

[kozmikreis]

If you were given a 500m x 500m plot of prime land to build something for many generations of Lojbanists to enjoy, what would you do with it?

Pierre is architecting the fictional space station setting that the kids' comic and probably other works in the future will use. Now is your chance to nab a plot of virtual land and make a lasting impression!

What he needs is 12-17 (of which he already has 2) different designs for neighbourhoods about 500 metres square. The two he has already are a suburban subdivision of single-family homes and a group of four large shabonos which may be replaced by smaller shabonos. The different designs can be arranged haphazardly in the residential areas.

Pierre is maintaining a written description and table layout of the space station as well as a DXF file of the actual design. He can guide you on how to submit your masterpiece for inclusion.

kozmikreis

[Pierre Abbat]

On Saturday, February 11, 2012 19:51:20 kozmikreis wrote:
> What he needs is 12-17 (of which he already has 2) different designs for
> neighbourhoods about 500 metres square. The two he has already are a
> suburban subdivision of single-family homes and a group of four large
> shabonos which may be replaced by smaller shabonos. The different designs
> can be arranged haphazardly in the residential areas.

In case you've never heard of it: a shabono (which I spell "tcabono" in
Lojban, same place structure as "zdani") is a round multifamily dwelling
consisting of two walls, each almost a semicircle of the same circle, and a
sloping roof which is wide enough to cover one room. There are two entrances,
diametrically opposed. The courtyard may be used for keeping chickens,
bicycles, or whatnot. It's a Yąnomamö word. People who live in shabonos have
their lives open to neighbors and probably don't expect robberies to happen.

I'd like the neighborhoods to reflect architectures of diverse cultures around
the world. Some architectures (such as nomad's tents) make no sense in the
space station, but whatever does make sense is welcome.

> Pierre is maintaining a written description and table layout of the space
> station as well as a DXF file of the actual design. He can guide you on
> how to submit your masterpiece for inclusion.

The written description is in the Google Doc "Layout of Space Station", which
you can get to by following a link from the root doc. The neighborhood plans
are in a DXF file which I drew in Qcad. I also have Intellicad on a Windows box
for my (nearly zero at this time) job, but didn't when I started drawing the
space station map. Expect hiccups as we work out how to put the neighborhoods
together.

Pierre
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
Já não percebe nada, já não percebe nada.

[Michael Turniansky]

  .ije na'oku lo casnu be lo lojbo se gunka cu se maldimna lo vitno ke relxima'e tersro nu cintypu'i ku .uenaisai

              --gejyspa

[Sid]

IMO, I'm a bit iffy on the "kids show" premise and plot. Why not make
it an actual visual novel, with a real plot, that people can enjoy? Or
is this actually intended for children?

mi'e cntr

[kozmikreis]

That's an interesting question, I'm not sure how to answer that
without more feedback. I would be very interested to hear your views
(and everyone else's) on what does or doesn't make my original plot
real/enjoyable/intended for children.

For those who haven't seen it, the draft and links to the other docs
can be found at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Figgelppx0xep5HC7GRConr445BHq3Oycb6uAB8tL2Y/edit

kozmikreis

On Feb 13, 5:49 pm, Sid <cntratio...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IMO, I'm a bit iffy on the "kids show" premise and plot. Why not make
> it an actual visual novel, with a real plot, that people can enjoy? Or
> is this actually intended for children?
>
> mi'e cntr
>

[Sid]

Well, in my experience, good visual novels generally have fairly
involved plots, usually about the interactions between characters
(naturally, since most dialogue is spoken/thought); they usually end
up being very touching and emotional. The kids show plot, in
comparison, seems a bit...middling.

Additionally, most people who're going to read this are adults --
while they might read the game to help with their Lojban learning,
wouldn't it be better to make something that has an engaging plot and
story? Something that would really *motivate* them to continue
reading, to see what happens next -- and if you want to see what
happens next, you have to learn Lojban. That seems like a better way
of going about things, to me.

[Paul]

The plot wasn't written with a graphic novel in mind, and I doubt many 8 year olds would be into the emo touchy-feely stuff. It's under a Creative Commons license, feel free to fix it or write a better one.

kozmikreis

--
Sent from my iPhone

[Sid]

Sorry if I've chosen to ignore your message, since you think it's "emo
touchy-feely".

[Paul]

That's a shame because you've raised some interesting points, and even negative criticism can be useful :-)

kozmikreis

--
Sent from my iPhone

[la .lindar.]

I absolutely welcome a better idea for a premise. At this point my only requirement is that we start with very simple grammar.

[MorphemeAddict]

How about using Robin's novel as the basis? Or is it too dark? 

stevo

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:36 PM, la .lindar. <lindar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I absolutely welcome a better idea for a premise. At this point my only requirement is that we start with very simple grammar.

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[la .lindar.]

Never read it, and I can tell you right now that the language is waaaaaaaay too difficult.

If Robin would like to help us adapt it for comic form, that might be a bit more fun.

[kozmikreis]

Here's a crazy idea that might just work - how about adapting
la .alis. using imagery based on Tenniel's original illustrations?

kozmikreis

[la .lindar.]

I have a very serious problem with that. Namely, I would want to completely re-translate la .alis. because I disagree with pretty much everything xorxes has ever said on basic principal. He pisses me off to no end on pretty much any topic ever and his Lojban is flamingly nonstandard. That being said he's probably the most fluent speaker in existence and a brilliant man who I must respect. He's very smart and can teach everybody a thing or two about advanced lodgebanning. Respect aside, I'm not publishing his version, ever.

If we did Alice, I would have to translate a bit at a time and it would probably take several years to complete the whole thing.

We put a lot of effort into the setting we've already created, so why not do something with that for now?

(...or combine the two?)

[kozmikreis]

There've been one or two negative criticisms of the existing plot,
though probably only an exercise in bike shedding as they haven't
amounted to any fixes or alternatives. Even so I say we shouldn't be
too precious about the original storyline if a better alternative
comes along. I'm quite happy to return to the original plot in its
original intended format at some later date - let's gather resources
and get going on something suited to a graphic novel - with your
director's hat on what do you think about one of these:

* Take an existing Creative Commons or public domain graphic novel and
adapt and translate it.
* Go outside our community and ask in one or two writers' groups for
material.
* Give the existing plot to a writers' group to dissect and improve.
* Carry on with the existing plot pretty much as-is.
* ????
* Profit.

kozmikreis

[la .lindar.]

We have a lot of lovely people right here on the forums who have given some decent suggestions. From what I understand, people seem to want a more intimate story line which develops the characters and forms an intimate relationship between the characters and reader. However, we still have to keep things simple at first in order to facilitate a larger number of newbie readers. I think shelving the kids show plot for now would be good, but in exchange I would like something slightly more... adult.

A murder mystery?

A scandal?

Post-fic?

Still takes place in the setting we're developing.

I would like the community to weigh in on this.

What sort of genre would you like to see?

(Ideas are brewing!)

((I still want my test art!))

[Jonathan Jones]

Well, if it's a graphic novel, my current favourite comics are the Powers series by Bendis and Oeming, and the Bleach manga by Tite Kubo. I'm not suggesting translating either of them by any means, I'm just suggesting things that could be used for inspiration.

Also, for anyone who's actually planning on working on this, I suggest reading "Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art" and "Making Comics: Storytelling Secrets of Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels ", both by Scott McCloud.

Also, I have a quick question: is the intent to produce a book or series of books, or is it to produce a serial comic? In other words, book or strip? The line between the two is actually really thin- MegaTokyo is a serially-produced series of comic books in which each of the pages is posted one at a time, and when the chapter is complete, the author finalizes the pages (inking, colouring, etc.) and publishes it in book form. I think doing this project in that way may be the best approach- it has the advantage of quick initial output time that comes with serially-produced comics, as well as the long-term advantages of books.

I happen to like the idea of this project, mainly because of the advantage visual media present- it's pretty easy for someone to figure out gerku menas dog if they see a picture of someone petting one whilst saying {coi gerku xu nelci ti}, for example.

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[Remo Dentato]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, for anyone who's actually planning on working on this, I suggest
> reading "Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art" and "Making Comics:
> Storytelling Secrets of Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels ", both by Scott
> McCloud.

Those are absolutely brilliant! I liked the second more than the first.

[Pierre Abbat]

I'm not good at coming up with whole plots, but here are some ideas for
subplots:

Guy and Kampacn go to the zoo. They see an enclosure labeled "smani", another
labeled "cinfo", and one labeled "cionmau". Guy looks at his word list and
doesn't find "cionmau". Kampacn explains that it's a Chinese fu'ivla, and that
it's also called "latcribe", which is the translation.

The problem with this is that a zoo with big animals is implausible in a space
habitat of that size. Maybe they could see lo .arxokuna instead (also called
lumge'u). If there is a zoo, it's more likely in one of the agricultural
strips, rather than the urban strip. There may be room for lo kixsmani ja
cinfysmani in the station.

They meet a man on the street. Guy, putting together some phrases he's
learned, greets him with "coi mi'e .gais. doi ma?". The man answers "mi'e
.miatav." Guy doesn't understand, as he's never heard of such a name before,
and isn't used to his accent. Kampacn helps out, and Guy finally gets the name
right.

This is based on an incident in my life. I was visiting Portugal with a church
group, and someone stopped by. I asked him "C�mo se chama voc�?". He answered
"Delfim", but I didn't recognize that as a name, and with his missing teeth I
wasn't sure I heard him right. Our hostess talked with him and got his name
right.

Pierre
--
loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji

[kozmikreis]

Thanks, Pierre, these little anecdote snippets are good to write into
plots.

For an adult genre, I vote for a sci-fi murder mystery romance action
adventure, but I'm not that fussy tbh :-)

kozmikreis

[la .lindar.]

I have a semifinal idea based on these interests.

I will only discuss this in private with koz and Ali at the moment.

It's awesome.

koz, check your email.

[Pierre Abbat]

On Saturday, February 11, 2012 19:51:20 kozmikreis wrote:

> If you were given a 500m x 500m plot of prime land to build something for
> many generations of Lojbanists to enjoy, what would you do with it?
>
> Pierre is architecting the fictional space station setting that the kids'
> comic and probably other works in the future will use. Now is your chance
> to nab a plot of virtual land and make a lasting impression!
>
> What he needs is 12-17 (of which he already has 2) different designs for
> neighbourhoods about 500 metres square. The two he has already are a
> suburban subdivision of single-family homes and a group of four large
> shabonos which may be replaced by smaller shabonos. The different designs
> can be arranged haphazardly in the residential areas.

Any ideas? Even a verbal/numerical description would be a good start. If the
description is good enough, I can draw it and send it back to you for
comments.

Each neighborhood has access to a road (for bikes) and a canal (for boats,
which are used to transport bigger things). If the last digit of its address
(in octal) is 0 or 7, the canal ends at the corner and there are roads on two
sides; if the last digit is 4 or 5, the road ends at the corner and there are
canals (with the obligatory fillet) on two sides.

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.

[Michael Turniansky]

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote: 

Of course some other names could be jokes in Spanish or Russian...

Or Arabic, or Japanese, or Jewish, or Afrikaans....

  Just to threadjack here... There is no language called "Jewish" in English.  (Although the word "Yiddish" does mean "Jewish" in Yiddish).  Jewish is the adjectival form of Jew, someone of that religion/ethnicity/culture (like me {;-)>  ).  There are many specifically "Jewish" languages -- Hebrew (about half dozen varieties evolved over the millennia), Yiddish (spoken by the Jews in Eastern and Central Europe), Ladino (spoken by the Jews in the Iberian peninsula), etc. But Jews can and do  (usually)  speak the majority language of whatever land they find themselves in.

   As for the project itself -- ah, well.  Guess that leaves me out of this new incarnation.  I'm no graphic artist.

                         --gejyspa

[kozmikreis]

There will be voice acting parts as before, are you still up for that?

kozmikreis

[Michael Turniansky]

  Yes, but I'm confused.  Thought this was now a graphic novel?  

            --gejyspa

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[MorphemeAddict]

I prefer stories that do not include coercion (e.g., war, police, government, corporations). Challenges against nature, personal rivalries, overcoming circumstances, intellectual accomplishments are better to me. 

stevo

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:06 AM, CosmicRay <c...@cosmicray.co.uk> wrote:

No, no, no, the plot for the *Kids'* show is pretty much all sweetness and light.  Honest :-)

The darker story arcs are intended for mature audiences only, and there will be plenty of positivity to counterbalance and ultimately overcome dark forces.

We must always bear in mind that our "community" will be judged by things like our works of fiction, so yes, love and tolerance ftw!

kozmikreis

--

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On 2 Feb 2012, at 10:45, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:

Rejection, war, taking over the world.. those things don't strike me as very positive and certainly aren't things I'd want to be associated with.
Why is it that every story needs war in it? It's not as if positive topics were boring, you know?
I always thought of the Lojban community as being very friendly and welcoming, but all this just sounds very negative, not to mention you seem to want this to be for children. I don't see why we should expose children to war, fighting, rebellions, hatred, etc. Instead, why not focus on ... Love and Tolerance?

Am 02.02.2012 10:50, schrieb CosmicRay:

More seriously, what would be done with criminally insane people, or evil infiltrators hell bent on exposing the existence of the space station?  (R/)ejection may be the only solution.

kozmikreis

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On 2 Feb 2012, at 09:47, CosmicRay <c...@cosmicray.co.uk> wrote:

Maybe for speaking Esperanto, loudly, in a cinema.

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On 2 Feb 2012, at 09:39, "la .lindar." <lindar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would we reject people? --

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.i su'o da ro roi me zo'e moi

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[Michael Turniansky]

  .ie

[kozmikreis]

It'll be an online graphic novel with music and a few visual effects.  Some speech and some sound effects are likely too :-)

kozmikreis

[Ali Sajid Imami]

I had a few more ideas about the plot.
Also, Guys. PLEASE SETTLE ON A SINGLE FORMAT!

banseljaj

On Feb 23, 9:27 pm, kozmikreis <kozmikr...@lojban.org.uk> wrote:
> It'll be an online graphic novel with music and a few visual effects.  Some speech and some sound effects are likely too :-)
>
> kozmikreis
>
> On 22 Feb 2012, at 21:58, Michael Turniansky wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >   Yes, but I'm confused.  Thought this was now a graphic novel?
>
> >             --gejyspa
>

> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 11:15 AM, kozmikreis <kozmikr...@lojban.org.uk> wrote:
> > There will be voice acting parts as before, are you still up for that?
>
> > kozmikreis
>
> > On 22 Feb 2012, at 13:35, Michael Turniansky wrote:
>
> > >    As for the project itself -- ah, well.  Guess that leaves me out of this new incarnation.  I'm no graphic artist.
>
> > --
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[la .lindar.]

I need artists. We still need artists. We still have no artists.

In short, nobody is drawing this comic right now.

When we have an animation crew, SOMETHING will start.

I have everything else taken care of.

[Pierre Abbat]

And I need someone to help me lay out the neighborhoods. I don't know enough
about neighborhood layout in various cultures to do that.

I have a POV-Ray model of the habitat and will be adding the major streets and
canals soon (I have some programming work to do for someone).

[la .lindar.]

Okay, here's the story:

kozmikreis seems to have disappeared. I need a script writer / editor to help me turn nothing into something.The rest of the project is handled. If you happen to live in the Los Angeles area or know somebody in the Los Angeles area, please contact me directly as I could use some meatspace assistance. For all those still invested in the kids show, please keep up the good work. The project I'm starting in its place is something to get a crew started. Once we have staffing and have generated interest the kids show will be a lot more likely to happen. Unfortunately, that project requires a lot more heart and staffing than what we have available, so I'm not going to start it until I can give it the full attention it deserves. In the mean time, I have a fantastic treat waiting for everybody that's very soon to hit production.

[Paul]

Hello, folks, I'm still here!  I sometimes get a few days in a row where I'm too busy or too distracted to be able to chip in, but I get round to it eventually.

kozmikreis

--

Sent from my iPhone

On 26 Feb 2012, at 11:43, "la .lindar." <lindar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Okay, here's the story:

kozmikreis seems to have disappeared. I need a script writer / editor to help me turn nothing into something.The rest of the project is handled. If you happen to live in the Los Angeles area or know somebody in the Los Angeles area, please contact me directly as I could use some meatspace assistance. For all those still invested in the kids show, please keep up the good work. The project I'm starting in its place is something to get a crew started. Once we have staffing and have generated interest the kids show will be a lot more likely to happen. Unfortunately, that project requires a lot more heart and staffing than what we have available, so I'm not going to start it until I can give it the full attention it deserves. In the mean time, I have a fantastic treat waiting for everybody that's very soon to hit production.

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