Conlang test sentence failure.

[gleki]

From http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Conlang+Test+Sentences

The tallest and smallest men in the world both joined the circus.

• lo clarai e lo toryrai be lo ro nanmu pe le munje cu cmibi'o le tigbe'e
• It's not exactly right, because {be lo ro...} applies only to {toryrai}. Maybe:
• lo clarai je toryrai be lo ro nanmu pe le munje cu cmibi'o le tigbe'e

The second solution fails as well. How to say "(The tallest and smallest) men in the world"?

[ianek]

If we accept that {je} is good here, then {lo ke clarai je toryrai
ke'e be lo ro nanmu} works. Personally I don't, so I'd prefer {joi}
here.

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 12 Lip, 13:11, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *From *http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Conlang+Test+Sentences
> *The tallest and smallest men in the world both joined the circus.*
>
>    - lo clarai e lo toryrai be lo ro nanmu pe le munje cu cmibi'o le tigbe'e
>    - *It's not exactly right, because {be lo ro...} applies only to
>    {toryrai}. Maybe:*
>    - lo clarai je toryrai be lo ro nanmu pe le munje cu cmibi'o le tigbe'e
>
> The second solution fails as well. How to say "(*The tallest and smallest)
> men in the world*"?

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

On 12 July 2012 09:32, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If we accept that {je} is good here, then {lo ke clarai je toryrai
> ke'e be lo ro nanmu} works. Personally I don't, so I'd prefer {joi}
> here.
>

I read that as "The ones who are both the tallest and the smallest men
in the world",
which is illogical unless all men in the world are of the same height.

I guess we would be closer with {lo [re / ro] ke clarai ja toryrai
ke'e be lo ro nanmu}.

ta'o contrary to the lujvo scoring algorithm, I much prefer {to'unrai}
to {toryrai}...

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

[Michael Turniansky]

  The problem is the assumption that you can directly translate the sentence from English with the same kind of syntax, and in the same order.  But what we are really talking about are two beings, lo traji be lo ka tordu bei fo lo'i munje nanmu be'o , and lo traji be lo ka clani bei fo lo'i munje nanmu be'o.  And if we join those with jo'u, we can certainly have them join the circus in lojban (  lo traji be lo ka tordu bei fo lo'i munje nanmu be'o kujo'u lo traji be lo ka clani bei fo lo'i munje nanmu be'o cu cmibi'o le tigbe'e ) But I think what you really want is : le remei poi cmibi'o lo tigbe'e cu traji lo ka tordu fa'u clani  keifo lo'i munje nanmu 

              --gejsypa

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[Jacob Errington]

Indeed, the issue is that English lets us use two connected adjectives
on one single noun, but yielding two different kinds of referents. {lo
clarai je toryrai nanmu} says that for each of its referents that they
have the additional properties {clarai} and {toryrai} which is silly,
va'i illogical. Really, we need to create two sets of referents by
using two descriptors: {lo clarai nanmu .e lo toryrai nanmu}.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

[Jorge Llambías]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:11 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The second solution fails as well. How to say "(The tallest and smallest)
> men in the world"?

I'd go with "lo clarai fa'u toryrai nanmu".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[.arpis.]

Doesn't parse; jbofi'e doesn't like the {ce} after the {ke}.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 6:35 PM, Lindar <lindar...@gmail.com> wrote:

le ke clani traji ke ce ke tordu traji ke nanmu ku co'e

I win. =D

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[selpa'i]

Indeed, but the problem is that lindar used ke instead of ke'e.
The sentence he intended was:
le ke clani traji ke'e ce ke tordu traji ke'e nanmu ku co'e
To get the following structure:
le (ke clani traji ke'e) ce (ke tordu traji ke'e) nanmu ku co'e

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

Am 13.07.2012 14:51, schrieb .arpis.:

Doesn't parse; jbofi'e doesn't like the {ce} after the {ke}.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 6:35 PM, Lindar <lindar...@gmail.com> wrote:

le ke clani traji ke ce ke tordu traji ke nanmu ku co'e

I win. =D

-- 
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u 
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla 
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata

[ianek]

I don't think {ce} should be used anywhere outside "(set)" places (or
similar). The set of balls does not have properties of balls, it has
properties of a set. A set of people doesn't join a circus; people do.
And honestly I'm not half sure what {ce} exactly does as a tanru
connective. In fact there are no tanru connectives with this property
(I mean, "lo ka mi xadba zo'o jimpe ce'u").
http://dag.github.com/cll/6/4/
"Lojban speakers should generally think twice before employing the set
descriptors."

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 13 Lip, 15:04, selpa'i <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:
> Indeed, but the problem is that lindar used ke instead of ke'e.
> The sentence he intended was:
> le ke clani traji ke'e ce ke tordu traji ke'e nanmu ku co'e
> To get the following structure:
> le (ke clani traji ke'e) ce (ke tordu traji ke'e) nanmu ku co'e
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>
> Am 13.07.2012 14:51, schrieb .arpis.:> Doesn't parse; jbofi'e doesn't like the {ce} after the {ke}.
>

[selpa'i]

I agree. I only corrected his grammar, making no comment about semantics.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i