Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ?
gleki
MorphemeAddict
stevo
Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ? Can we rearrange words in extreme cases and use other cmavo like {kei} and {cu} ?
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gleki
It's a textbook for newbies. So don't worry. It will be an introduction to Lojban.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:49:14 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
Even if it is possible to eliminate {ku} in speech, why would you want to?
stevo
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 2:35 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ? Can we rearrange words in extreme cases and use other cmavo like {kei} and {cu} ?
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Jonathan Jones
cu is kind of like an optional half-.i, in that whereas .i implicitly adds whatever terminators are required to end the previous sentence and begin a new one, cu does the same, but only up the point of the selbri (, and please keep in mind that that is where my comparison ends- I doubt there are any other similarities between cu and .i).
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Jonathan Jones
ianek
On 20 Mar, 13:23, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, in that case, I recommend cu, not ku. cu is actually easily elidable,
> unlike ku. I believe we determined not long ago that in the worst case, it
> would take a maximum of three terminators in the absence of cu to correctly
> terminate a grammatical structure, and rarely more than one.
ku brodu}? Jbofi'e says that it needs at least these four {ku} if we
want to avoid {cu}.
I like avoiding {cu}, but only when it doesn't require a string of
more than two terminators.
mu 'o mi'e ianek
> cu is kind of like an optional half-.i, in that whereas .i implicitly adds
> whatever terminators are required to end the previous sentence and begin a
> new one, cu does the same, but only up the point of the selbri (, and
> please keep in mind that that is where my comparison ends- I doubt there
> are any other similarities between cu and .i).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:38 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well. We are preparing a textbook that will teach how to speak lojban.
> > But this textbook must use as few words as possible.
> > I wanna get rid of all words that can be replaced by other words.
>
> > It's a textbook for newbies. So don't worry. It will be an introduction to
> > Lojban.
>
> > On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:49:14 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
>
> >> Even if it is possible to eliminate {ku} in speech, why would you want to?
>
> >> stevo
>
>
> >>> Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ? Can we
> >>> rearrange words in extreme cases and use other cmavo like {kei} and {cu} ?
>
> >>> --
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MorphemeAddict
What a about {lo nu broda lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo ku ku ku
On 20 Mar, 13:23, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, in that case, I recommend cu, not ku. cu is actually easily elidable,
> unlike ku. I believe we determined not long ago that in the worst case, it
> would take a maximum of three terminators in the absence of cu to correctly
> terminate a grammatical structure, and rarely more than one.
ku brodu}? Jbofi'e says that it needs at least these four {ku} if we
want to avoid {cu}.
I like avoiding {cu}, but only when it doesn't require a string of
more than two terminators.
Jonathan Jones
However, your example is extremely contrived. I highly doubt that anyone would talk about an event of an event of an event of an event in any real-life situation, nor can I conceive of what such a thing is. I'm not even sure of what an event of an event is, let alone the fourth iteration. (lodu'u broda losi'o brode lonu brodi , on the other hand, at least makes some sort of coherent sense to me, however.)
Also, vlasisku.lojban.org appears to be down. Someone not about to go to sleep want to go on IRC and let Robin et al know? (It happens that while I know there are other NU, si'o du'u and nu are the only ones I remember off the top of my head.)
selpa'i
You can see something like {mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste} everyday. It's not extremely contrived, anyway.
The way to avoid all the terminators is to rearrange the order of sumti. You can elide all of them by putting the selbri first.
lo nu mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] [kei] [ku] mukti lo nu mi cafne tadni
You can avoid all the teminators by saying:
mukti lo nu mi cafne tadni kei fa lo nu mi djica lo nu mi kakne lo nu jbota'a se cau lo nu pilno lo jbovlaste
This can be done pretty much always. Sometimes, however, using ku will save you syllables.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
-- .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
ianek
would mean, too.
Example: {lo nu bapli lo nu bebna lo nu bredi lo nu sipna}: An/The
event of forcing someone to be stupid about being ready to sleep.
Totally comprehensible.
mu'o mi'e ianek
> I didn't actually do the experimenting to determine such a thing myself, so
> I really can't say exactly.
>
> However, your example is extremely contrived. I highly doubt that anyone
> would talk about an event of an event of an event of an event in any
> real-life situation, nor can I conceive of what such a thing is. I'm not
> even sure of what an event of an event is, let alone the fourth iteration.
> (lodu'u broda losi'o brode lonu brodi , on the other hand, at least makes
> some sort of coherent sense to me, however.)
>
> Also, vlasisku.lojban.org appears to be down. Someone not about to go to
> sleep want to go on IRC and let Robin et al know? (It happens that while I
> know there are other NU, si'o du'u and nu are the only ones I remember off
> the top of my head.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:10 AM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On 20 Mar, 13:23, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Well, in that case, I recommend cu, not ku. cu is actually easily
> >> elidable,
> >> > unlike ku. I believe we determined not long ago that in the worst case,
> >> it
> >> > would take a maximum of three terminators in the absence of cu to
> >> correctly
> >> > terminate a grammatical structure, and rarely more than one.
>
> >> What a about {lo nu broda lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo ku ku ku
> >> ku brodu}? Jbofi'e says that it needs at least these four {ku} if we
> >> want to avoid {cu}.
> >> I like avoiding {cu}, but only when it doesn't require a string of
> >> more than two terminators.
>
Felipe Gonçalves Assis
> I didn't actually do the experimenting to determine such a thing myself, so
> I really can't say exactly.
>
> However, your example is extremely contrived. I highly doubt that anyone
> would talk about an event of an event of an event of an event in any
> real-life situation, nor can I conceive of what such a thing is. I'm not
> even sure of what an event of an event is, let alone the fourth iteration.
> (lodu'u broda losi'o brode lonu brodi , on the other hand, at least makes
> some sort of coherent sense to me, however.)
lo nu broda lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo is not an event of an event
of an event of an event. It is an event of broda, with broda2 being an
event, etc.
lo nunununu broda is an event of ... an event.
mu'o
mi'e .asiz.
Pierre Abbat
> I didn't actually do the experimenting to determine such a thing myself, so
> I really can't say exactly.
>
> However, your example is extremely contrived. I highly doubt that anyone
> would talk about an event of an event of an event of an event in any
> real-life situation, nor can I conceive of what such a thing is. I'm not
> even sure of what an event of an event is, let alone the fourth iteration.
> (lodu'u broda losi'o brode lonu brodi , on the other hand, at least makes
> some sort of coherent sense to me, however.)
Also, "nu" can be terminated by "kei". Years ago I came up with "lo nu punji
lo sovda be lo cipnrkuku ku ku ku zvati lo zdani be lo na'e cipnrkuku ku ku",
which is contrived to have the syllable "ku" five times in a row, but describes
an actual event in the life cycle of a brood parasite.
Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
Lindar
Jonathan Jones
An event of an event would be {lo nu nu ...} and I don't know what it
would mean, too.
More like {lo nu lo nu ...}.
ianek
On 20 Mar, 22:05, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > An event of an event would be {lo nu nu ...} and I don't know what it
> > would mean, too.
>
> More like {lo nu lo nu ...}.
after the inner {lo nu}. And then it's not an event of an event, but
an event of that selbri, with an event as x1.
Meanwhile, {lo nu nu broda} is "An event of nu broda", ie. "An event
of [something being] an event of broda".
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
Jonathan Jones
Jorge Llambías
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 9:10 AM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 20 Mar, 13:23, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Well, in that case, I recommend cu, not ku. cu is actually easily
>> > elidable,
>> > unlike ku. I believe we determined not long ago that in the worst case,
>> > it
>> > would take a maximum of three terminators in the absence of cu to
>> > correctly
>> > terminate a grammatical structure, and rarely more than one.
>>
>> What a about {lo nu broda lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo ku ku ku
>> ku brodu}? Jbofi'e says that it needs at least these four {ku} if we
>> want to avoid {cu}.
>> I like avoiding {cu}, but only when it doesn't require a string of
>> more than two terminators.
>
> Maybe the original meant three distinct terminators. You've used only one,
> albeit four times.
In that case, the worst case is that it takes a maximum of one
distinct terminator (repeated however many times) to replace "cu". The
same terminator for the outermost structure (sometimes repeated)
should always do the trick. So the "maximum of three" doesn't really
work under either interpretation.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
gleki
selpa'i
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-- .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
Jonathan Jones
When cu is eventually introduced, it's function is made much more clear and understandable as a result, as well.
Jonathan Jones
gleki
On Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:30:59 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Agreed. While cu is a very versatile cmavo, and is quite frequently used specifically because of this, I doubt there is a single jbopre among us who does not think that teaching terminators is /extremely/ important, /especially/ in the very beginning.
When cu is eventually introduced, it's function is made much more clear and understandable as a result, as well.
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 7:14 AM, selpa'i <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:
You may think it's easier without ku, but it will cause problems for the students later on. I strongly recommend teaching full terminators from the beginning on. Teach how to elide them a bit later. Trust the people here who tell you to teach terminators. We have a lot of experience teaching beginners and this method has proven effective again and again.
Am 21.03.2012 07:54, schrieb gleki:
My point was to teach in the form of{lo broda cu brode lo brodi lo brodo be lo brodu}In this case student can learn only "lo".Otherwise they will have to learn{lo broda ku brode lo brodi ku lo brodo be lo brodu [ku ku]}which is a bit more bulky and harder to understand.
{lo} without looks like "a" or "the" in English.{lo ... ku} looks like a programming language which is not easy for everyone.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:35:01 AM UTC+4, gleki wrote:--Is it possible to completely get rid of {ku} in speech ? Can we rearrange words in extreme cases and use other cmavo like {kei} and {cu} ?
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-- .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
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.arpis.
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>>> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
>>> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>
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mu'o mi'e .arpis.
gleki
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>>>
>>> --
>>> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
>>> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>
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.arpis.
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
>> >>> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>> >>>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >>
>> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >>
>> > --
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>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
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gleki
I speak Russian.
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
>> >>> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>> >>>
>> >>> --
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >>
>> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >>
>> > --
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>> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
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Pierre Abbat
> https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/menli-bangu-put-koteenka
>
> The Kitten's Way is still in progress.
I don't know Russian well enough to translate into it, but I can read it
fairly well.
In the Cyrillic alphabet for Lojban, ъ, not ы, is used for y. Ъ is not used as
a vowel in Russian, but it is in Bulgarian, and as I understand it (I don't
speak Bulgarian), it's closer to Lojban y than ы is.
> mi dunda lo plise ku fa'a do - я даю яблоко тебе.
I'd say "mi dunda lo plise ku do". "fa'a" is not a proper preposition but a
spatial tense marker (though all tense markers can be used as prepositions)
and doesn't denote motion unless preceded by "mo'i".
> zo'e pe do - что-то о тебе
"pe" isn't a preposition. It can be used to attach a prepositional phrase to a
sumti (e.g. "le renro pe pa'o lo canko" means "the thrower who is through a
window", which is different from "le renro be pa'o lo canko" which means "the
thrower through a window", i.e. he throws something through a window). "pe" is
in the same selma'o as "goi", which does something quite un-preposition-like.
> xu do cusku bau la .lojban. ? (Ты говоришь на Ложбане ?)
For "Do you speak Lojban?" I'd say "xu do se bangu la lojban". Is "Ты говоришь
по-ложбански" proper Russian? Btw, what about "бурушаский язык"? (language
isolate spoken in Hunza) You may want to point out that "xu", like "ли", can
follow the word being questioned.
> ti me ma (Это что ?)
> plise (яблоко)
That has to be either "ti me ma? — lo plise" or "ti mo? — plise". "Что он
делает" is "mo", not "me ma".
Enough comments for now. Keep up the good work!
Pierre
--
lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
arcady....@gmail.com
On Thursday, March 22, 2012 10:15:45 gleki wrote:
> https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/menli-bangu-put-koteenka
>
> The Kitten's Way is still in progress.I don't know Russian well enough to translate into it, but I can read it
fairly well.In the Cyrillic alphabet for Lojban, ъ, not ы, is used for y. Ъ is not used as
a vowel in Russian, but it is in Bulgarian, and as I understand it (I don't
speak Bulgarian), it's closer to Lojban y than ы is.
> mi dunda lo plise ku fa'a do - я даю яблоко тебе.
I'd say "mi dunda lo plise ku do". "fa'a" is not a proper preposition but a
spatial tense marker (though all tense markers can be used as prepositions)
and doesn't denote motion unless preceded by "mo'i".
> zo'e pe do - что-то о тебе
"pe" isn't a preposition. It can be used to attach a prepositional phrase to a
sumti (e.g. "le renro pe pa'o lo canko" means "the thrower who is through a
window", which is different from "le renro be pa'o lo canko" which means "the
thrower through a window", i.e. he throws something through a window). "pe" is
in the same selma'o as "goi", which does something quite un-preposition-like.> xu do cusku bau la .lojban. ? (Ты говоришь на Ложбане ?)
For "Do you speak Lojban?" I'd say "xu do se bangu la lojban". Is "Ты говоришь
по-ложбански" proper Russian?
Btw, what about "бурушаский язык"? (language
isolate spoken in Hunza) You may want to point out that "xu", like "ли", can
follow the word being questioned.> ti me ma (Это что ?)
> plise (яблоко)
That has to be either "ti me ma? — lo plise" or "ti mo? — plise". "Что он
делает" is "mo", not "me ma".
Enough comments for now. Keep up the good work!
Pierre
--
lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
.arpis.
> On Friday, March 23, 2012 12:10:13 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday, March 22, 2012 10:15:45 gleki wrote:
>> > https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/menli-bangu-put-koteenka
>> >
>> > The Kitten's Way is still in progress.
>>
>> I don't know Russian well enough to translate into it, but I can read it
>> fairly well.
>>
>> In the Cyrillic alphabet for Lojban, ъ, not ы, is used for y. Ъ is not
>> used as
>> a vowel in Russian, but it is in Bulgarian, and as I understand it (I
>> don't
>> speak Bulgarian), it's closer to Lojban y than ы is.
>
> We don't teach Cyrillic writing system there. It's just transcription.
> Unstressed "ы" sounds like "schwa". It's just like we all hear it. Although
> we are not experts.
>
>> > mi dunda lo plise ku fa'a do - я даю яблоко тебе.
>> I'd say "mi dunda lo plise ku do". "fa'a" is not a proper preposition but
>> a
>> spatial tense marker (though all tense markers can be used as
>> prepositions)
>> and doesn't denote motion unless preceded by "mo'i".
>
> Do you really think that {mi dunda ti fa'a do} can't have any meaning ?
It has meaning; it's just the wrong meaning. It means that the act of
giving is taking place in your direction, whatever that means.
> It's just what the Kitten's Way is all about.
> We replace x3 with sumtcita in first lessons. Only then we learn about x3
> It's just the policy of this textbook.
>
>> > zo'e pe do - что-то о тебе
>> "pe" isn't a preposition. It can be used to attach a prepositional phrase
>> to a
>> sumti (e.g. "le renro pe pa'o lo canko" means "the thrower who is through
>> a
>> window", which is different from "le renro be pa'o lo canko" which means
>> "the
>> thrower through a window", i.e. he throws something through a window).
>> "pe" is
>> in the same selma'o as "goi", which does something quite
>> un-preposition-like.
>>
>> > xu do cusku bau la .lojban. ? (Ты говоришь на Ложбане ?)
>> For "Do you speak Lojban?" I'd say "xu do se bangu la lojban". Is "Ты
>> говоришь
>> по-ложбански" proper Russian?
>
> It is. ki'e. We need to find another example for {bau}.
{xu do cusku bau la .lojban.} does have a reasonable meaning: "Are you
speaking in lojban?" (Although I'd probably move the {xu} to follow
the {bau})
I think Russian is ambiguous as to whether that or "Do you speak
lojban?" is being asked.
>
>>
>> Btw, what about "бурушаский язык"? (language
>> isolate spoken in Hunza) You may want to point out that "xu", like "ли",
>> can
>> follow the word being questioned.
>>
>> > ti me ma (Это что ?)
>> > plise (яблоко)
>> That has to be either "ti me ma? — lo plise" or "ti mo? — plise". "Что он
>> делает" is "mo", not "me ma".
>
> Oh, indeed.
>
>>
>> Enough comments for now. Keep up the good work!
>>
>> Pierre
>> --
>> lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko
>
>
> ki'esai doi .pier.
>
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