Linked sumti in the main bridi

[ianek]

In a recent thread there seemed to be an assumption that {ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i} means the same as {ko'a broda ko'e ko'i}, ie. linked sumti eliminate the filled brivla places. Where is the source of this fact? I looked into http://dag.github.com/cll/5/7/ and didn't find it.

mu'o mi'e ianek

[ianek]

Oh, I've realized that such assumption can only be found in gleki's new rafsi proposal (eg. jve = "be fe lo") and it wasn't explicitly stated.

Anyway, I'd like to know how do we treat such selbri. Maybe {ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i} is equivalent to {ko'a broda ko'e fe ko'i}? The latter, as far as I understand, is an awful way to say {ko'a broda ko'e e ko'i} (or maybe {ko'a broda ko'e ju'e ko'i}? I can't say I understand {ju'e} and I don't see it in CLL).

[Jonathan Jones]

{ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i} and {ko'a broda ko'e ko'i} are exactly equivalent. "be" has no effect on the jufra in this case. The reason for this is because "be" says the next sumti is the x2 of the immediately preceding selbri and not to any outer selbri that may contain it. (For example, in {lo zarci be ko'a zasti} the selbri "zarci" is an inner selbri contained within the bridi of "zasti".) The sumti "ko'i" fills the next unfilled slot, x3, as per normal.

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:40 AM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:

In a recent thread there seemed to be an assumption that {ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i} means the same as {ko'a broda ko'e ko'i}, ie. linked sumti eliminate the filled brivla places. Where is the source of this fact? I looked into http://dag.github.com/cll/5/7/ and didn't find it.

mu'o mi'e ianek

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Jonathan Jones]

I need to correct myself a bit. There is a small grammatical difference, in that {broda be ko'e} is considered a tanru unit (for cases like {broda be ko'e brode}), but it has no effect on the meaning- ko'e still goes into the x2 of broda, and ko'i still goes into the x3.

If you need verification, put {.i ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i .i ko'a broda ko'e ko'i} into the parser:

camxes

jbofi'e

[ianek]

camxes doesn't assign sumti places. I don't know if jbofi'e by itself has an authority in the  Lojban grammar (except xorlo, of course).

According to jbofi'e, x2 of {broda be ko'e} is still broda2, verified be {ko'a broda be ko'e fe ko'i}. I think now I understand how it works...

mu'o mi'e ianek

On Friday, April 27, 2012 2:35:05 PM UTC+2, aionys wrote:

I need to correct myself a bit. There is a small grammatical difference, in that {broda be ko'e} is considered a tanru unit (for cases like {broda be ko'e brode}), but it has no effect on the meaning- ko'e still goes into the x2 of broda, and ko'i still goes into the x3.

If you need verification, put {.i ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i .i ko'a broda ko'e ko'i} into the parser:

camxes

jbofi'e

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

{ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i} and {ko'a broda ko'e ko'i} are exactly equivalent. "be" has no effect on the jufra in this case. The reason for this is because "be" says the next sumti is the x2 of the immediately preceding selbri and not to any outer selbri that may contain it. (For example, in {lo zarci be ko'a zasti} the selbri "zarci" is an inner selbri contained within the bridi of "zasti".) The sumti "ko'i" fills the next unfilled slot, x3, as per normal.

On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:40 AM, ianek wrote:

In a recent thread there seemed to be an assumption that {ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i} means the same as {ko'a broda ko'e ko'i}, ie. linked sumti eliminate the filled brivla places. Where is the source of this fact? I looked into http://dag.github.com/cll/5/7/ and didn't find it.

mu'o mi'e ianek

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[tijlan]

Not that I have an official source to offer, but, rationally speaking:

ko'a broda ko'e ko'i = fa ko'a fe ko'e fi ko'i broda
ko'a broda be ko'e ko'i = fa ko'a fe ko'e fi ko'i broda

The same terbri filling the same selbri. As far as the effective
meaning of the bridi is concerned, they are identical.

I think the linked sumti no more 'eliminate' the places than the
unlinked sumti do. {broda be ko'e be'o fo'e} is as valid as {broda
ko'e fe fo'e}, examples of which can be found in xorxes' {lo nu binxo}
if I remember correctly. {broda be ko'e be'o fo'e} and {broda ko'e fe
fo'e} should make as much sense as {broda ko'e .i broda fo'e}.

mu'o

[tengo]

.i xu lo smuni be lu fa ko'a fa ko'e broda li'u ku du lo smuni be lu fa ko'a jo'u ko'e broda li'u

[Jonathan Jones]

pensi lo du'u zo joi .enai zo jo'u drani

.i.e'ocai ko gasnu lonu lo do se ciska cu zmadu lo do go'i loka cmalu

On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 4:53 AM, tengo <yurock...@gmail.com> wrote:

.i xu lo smuni be lu fa ko'a fa ko'e broda li'u ku du lo smuni be lu fa ko'a jo'u ko'e broda li'u

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[tengo]

.i va'i lo smuni be lu fa ko'a fa ko'e broda li'u ku du xu lo smuni be
lu fa ko'a joi ko'e broda li'u

[tengo]

.i mi xenru lo za'i le lerfu sinxa ku barda .i lo la .gugl.grups.
cnino je .uebre bo samtci be lo nu ciska cu claxu za'a lo sampu se
tcidu tadji .i mi pu pilno le mucti batke be fi lo nu vimcu lo datni
be le tarmi .i ku'i no za'a dai te zukte ku jalge .i ku'i nai ko
fu'esku la .gugl. .i mi ca pilno lo tolci'o

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 7:08 AM, tengo <yurock...@gmail.com> wrote:

.i va'i lo smuni be lu fa ko'a fa ko'e broda li'u ku du xu lo smuni be
lu fa ko'a joi ko'e broda li'u

 

pensi lodu'u la'edi'u drani

[Michael Turniansky]

mi necli le tanru no'u lu mucti batke li'u

                --gejyspa

[Michael Turniansky]

lo nu go'i cu cumki .i tu'a lu fa ko'a fa ko'e broda li'u nibli  lo za'i ko'a sumti fi li pa ku jo'u lo za'i ko'e sumti fi li pa .i ku'i lo tadji be lo nu ko'a jo'u ko'e sumti cu na satci .i mu'a mi puzu pilno lu mi klama lo patfu be mi fa la flaridas. li'u fi'o mi smuni lu mi klama lo patfu be mi poi zvati la flaridas li'u

           --gejyspa

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[Jonathan Jones]

la'o fi'o mi le'u na gendra

[Jonathan Jones]

la'o si lo'u

[Michael Turniansky]

zo mi pu selsre  selse'a u'u