Fwd: Reuse request

[Janek]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rex May <rm...@mac.com>
Date: 2 March 2012 21:22
Subject: Re: Reuse request
To: jan...@gmail.com

Sounds like fun.  I'll say yes, with credit as you say, and a couple
of links.  One to my Ceqli site, and one to my cartoon site.

http://www.baloocartoons.com

And I'm looking forward to seeing it.  If you need any more input from
me, it sounds like a fun project.  I could do more drawings.  I
realized that what was needed was ultra-simple, childlike stuff
without the stiffness of the 'through pictures' series.

On Mar 2, 2012, at 1:16 PM, PBworks ceqli Contact Owner > wrote:

Message from jan...@gmail.com via ceqli (http://ceqli.pbworks.com/):

Hi! I've found the comic, "Ceqli Through Pictures". I think it's
great, I could read the whole whing with no knowledge of the language.
Being a Lojbanist, I envy it. Could we get a permission to translate
the comic into Lojban, with the original or recreated pictures? Of
course Ceqli would get a credit.

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Rex May
rm...@mac.com
PHONE: 1-970-218-0889
All about me here:
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[Jonathan Jones]

I asked him to do the first five panels with my translation. This is what he came back with.

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

This is fun.  Here you go. On that last one, i wasn't sure if the pause dots belonged at the end of the line or the beginning of the next.  And on the name tags, you don't need the second pause dot, do you?

On Mar 2, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

coi.clalis.

Rex May

rm...@mac.com

PHONE: 1-970-218-0889

All about me here:

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[MorphemeAddict]

Should all be lowercase. 

stevo

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[Janek]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rex May <rm...@mac.com>
Date: 3 March 2012 00:17
Subject: Re: Reuse request
To: jan...@gmail.com

Whoops, just thought of something else.  Please put ©2012 by Rex F.
May somewhere on it.

On Mar 2, 2012, at 1:16 PM, PBworks ceqli Contact Owner > wrote:

Message from jan...@gmail.com via ceqli (http://ceqli.pbworks.com/):

Hi! I've found the comic, "Ceqli Through Pictures". I think it's
great, I could read the whole whing with no knowledge of the language.
Being a Lojbanist, I envy it. Could we get a permission to translate
the comic into Lojban, with the original or recreated pictures? Of
course Ceqli would get a credit.

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feature. You can
change the delivery address or disable these messages from the
workspace settings page:
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[Jonathan Jones]

Apparently the reason for the capitals is because the chosen font was a small-caps font. He's provided samples in other fonts for us to look at:

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

Oops.  Here they are:

On Mar 3, 2012, at 3:46 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

We also got a complaint about it being in capitals, because Lojban is typically written in all lower-case, but I think that's a bit nit-picky myself.

In any case, would you be willing to re-do those first five again with the needed changes so I can show the community?

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Rex May

rm...@mac.com

PHONE: 1-970-218-0889

All about me here:

http://www.baloocartoons.com

http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/BALOO-THE-CARTOONIST/375938452048

http://www.zazzle.com/rexfmay*

Follow me on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/#!/RexMayBaloo

[MorphemeAddict]

Of these four sample fonts, the first three look equally good. The problem I see with the last one (#4) is that the apostrophe is treated as unimportant, added as an afterthought, when it should be considered an integral part of the word. 

stevo

[Remo Dentato]

On Mar 3, 2012, at 3:46 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

We also got a complaint about it being in capitals, because Lojban is typically written in all lower-case, but I think that's a bit nit-picky myself.

It's not! Lojban alphabeth has no uppercase letters.

remod

[Lee Carlson]

I'm very pleased with the look of #3 (Chalkboard) m'self.

mi'e brais

--
The World is a magical place, waiting for our senses to grow sharper.

[Luke Bergen]

It doesn't?  How would you say {la .EIbryxam.} with the proper pronunciation without capitals (or maybe accent marks or something)? 

[Remo Dentato]

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It doesn't?  How would you say {la .EIbryxam.} with the
> proper pronunciation without capitals (or maybe accent marks or something)?

Exactly, I would use an accent {la .èlbryxam.}. Non standard accents
are so rare, after all.

I understand that using uppercase is rooted to the times when 7bit
ASCII was the only available character set but I argue that is no
longer needed.

Unless, we take another way and say that the Lojban alphabet has bot
lower and uppercase letter, and that it happens that the lowercase "h"
is actually the uppercase apstrophe. We should also say that we only
have use for uppercase vowels (to mark the stress) but since we were
at that we added all the others.

In the meantime, I prefer to say that "lojban alphabet only uses (some
of the) roman lowercase letters plus the comma, the apostroph and the
dot". Non standard stress can be marked by any type of accent you have
at hand.

[Jorge Llambías]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 8:23 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  How would you say {la .EIbryxam.} with the
> proper pronunciation without capitals (or maybe accent marks or something)?

The normal stress for ".elbryxam." is on the "e", the penultimate
syllable not counting y-syllables or consonantal syllables, just like
for the lujvo "melbyxra".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

[Luke Bergen]

wait. what?  I said eibryxam (with e and i capitalized) not elbryxam (with only e capitalized).  does that change it?  I say the name Abraham with 3 syllables. 

[MorphemeAddict]

I misinterpreted the capital I (i) as a lowercase l (L), too. 

You want EIbryxam, then. Or Eibryxam, or EIbry'am, or Eibry'em. In all cases, the 'e' has to be capitalized to be stressed. Just capitalizing the 'i' makes an extra syllable: e-I-bry-xam.

stevo

[Jorge Llambías]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:35 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> wait. what?  I said eibryxam (with e and i capitalized) not elbryxam (with
> only e capitalized).  does that change it?

Another good reason not to use capitals then, since capital "i" and
lower case "L" are indistinguishable in some fonts.
And no, it doesn't change what I said.

> I say the name Abraham with 3
> syllables.

.eibryxam. has three syllables too, but as I said the y-syllable
doesn't count for stress purposes.

[MorphemeAddict]

Or avoid that problem and use {avra'Am}. 

stevo

[Luke Bergen]

hmm, I don't remember that rule.  So in {brabrebro} the emphasis would be on the {bre} syllable but in {brabrybro} (whatever that might be) the emphasis would be on the {bra}?

Seems weird, but ok.  Duly noted.

2012/3/3 Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com>

[Jorge Llambías]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Luke Bergen <lukea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hmm, I don't remember that rule.  So in {brabrebro} the emphasis would be on
> the {bre} syllable but in {brabrybro} (whatever that might be) the emphasis
> would be on the {bra}?

"brabrybro" is not a valid form for a Lojban word, but if it were,
yes, it would have a stressed bra.

> Seems weird, but ok.  Duly noted.

Lojban morphology does have its weird moments.

[Pierre Abbat]

On Saturday, March 03, 2012 19:52:35 Luke Bergen wrote:
> hmm, I don't remember that rule. So in {brabrebro} the emphasis would be
> on the {bre} syllable but in {brabrybro} (whatever that might be) the
> emphasis would be on the {bra}?

Correct. In cmevla, though, some things can happen which can't in brivla:

*A cmevla can have syllables with "iy" or "uy" in them.

*A cmevla can have "y" in the first syllable, in the last syllable, or in
consecutive syllables.

It's not clear where to put the stress in these cases, though I've proposed
something.

Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

[Jonathan Jones]

Those look good to me. I'll forward these to the community so they can see it. (I'll probably get those "it's in caps" complaints again, but oh well. I like the font.)

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

I like your splicing idea.  Here are the first five.  Let me know and I'll do five more

On Mar 9, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

Alright. Thanks.

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

No, no bother.  I've just been busy.  I'll do a few at a time, like you say.

On Mar 9, 2012, at 1:14 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

I hope I'm not being annoying here. I haven't heard anything from you in a few days, so I was wondering if you got my last email, and if so, whether or not you are working on the transcription, and if so, how far you've gotten as of yet.

I was also wondering if you'd be willing to show them to me as you went along, in, say, sets of 5, so that I can proofread them for issues like we had with the first sample.

If you've decided not to do the transcription after all, let me know that too, and I'll do it myself- making sure to include the information you require, of course.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Rex May

rm...@mac.com

PHONE: 1-970-218-0889

All about me here:

http://www.baloocartoons.com

http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/BALOO-THE-CARTOONIST/375938452048

http://www.zazzle.com/rexfmay*

Follow me on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/#!/RexMayBaloo

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Rex May

rm...@mac.com

PHONE: 1-970-218-0889

All about me here:

http://www.baloocartoons.com

http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/BALOO-THE-CARTOONIST/375938452048

http://www.zazzle.com/rexfmay*

Follow me on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/#!/RexMayBaloo

[Michael Turniansky]

  Should we insist on .i separators in the second and subsequent panels? (as it stands now, panels 1-3 read, "Hello, me. There is something named Clalis by him, who is John", and with the 4th panel becomes ungrammatical)

         --geyspa

[rden...@gmail.com]

Il giorno , Michael Turniansky <mturn...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

>   Should we insist on .i separators in the second and subsequent panels?

I think we should. I always envisaged lojban comics dialags to be a continous stream of text for each character speaking.

One might think that there's an implicit {.i} at the begininng of a new balloon but this would break some dialogue that uses multiple balloons for a single utterance (for example to show a different point of view in a new panel).

I once experimented with using ":" as an alternative ortography for {.i} (just imagine the initial dot and the small dot over the "i" to be re-arranged in space) but it doesn't seem to have caught on. There's an example here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=751 .

[Jonathan Jones]

No, there's no need. The fact of the text being in separate panels is enough. In panels where a single person is saying multiple sentences, they are separated with {.i}.

If a person said {coi}, and then 3 seconds later said {mi do nelci}, would you think they were talking to themselves about something you like?

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[Michael Turniansky]

  Oh, didn't realize we were suppose to read the panels 3 seconds apart.  That's gonna take an awfully long time to read :-P

   (It goes back to the whole "modelling correct behavior" issue, I think.  Would you like a strip teaching English that says, "Look! I see man with three balloon red"?)

                             --gejyspa

[Jonathan Jones]

No, but those aren't exactly the same. They are both bad grammar, yes, but for different reasons. The English one is not bad because of not starting a new sentence when it should have.

[Jonathan Jones]

I'm forwarding this to the community. To me, panel 8 looks a bit weird. In Lojban, {.i} is the start of a new sentence, not the end of one, so that's probably why. Could you re-do that one with {.i do ...} all on the same line?

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

5 more

On Mar 27, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

Ah, I guess you never got that email. I said they looked good.

In future, I think it would be safe to assume that I like them unless you hear otherwise. I will, of course, respond as much, but just in case you don't get the email. I wouldn't progress to be delayed because you're waiting on a response from me that I sent but you haven't received.

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

Augh!  No.  I was waiting for you to say the first were okay, and then I got busy and my mind wandered.  I'll do some more now.

On Mar 27, 2012, at 2:46 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

Have you done any more?

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

I like your splicing idea.  Here are the first five.  Let me know and I'll do five more

<lcpic0001.jpg><lcpic0002.jpg><lcpic0003.jpg><lcpic0004.jpg><lcpic0005.jpg>

On Mar 9, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

Alright. Thanks.

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

No, no bother.  I've just been busy.  I'll do a few at a time, like you say.

On Mar 9, 2012, at 1:14 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

I hope I'm not being annoying here. I haven't heard anything from you in a few days, so I was wondering if you got my last email, and if so, whether or not you are working on the transcription, and if so, how far you've gotten as of yet.

I was also wondering if you'd be willing to show them to me as you went along, in, say, sets of 5, so that I can proofread them for issues like we had with the first sample.

If you've decided not to do the transcription after all, let me know that too, and I'll do it myself- making sure to include the information you require, of course.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Rex May

rm...@mac.com

PHONE: 1-970-218-0889

All about me here:

http://www.baloocartoons.com

http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/BALOO-THE-CARTOONIST/375938452048

http://www.zazzle.com/rexfmay*

Follow me on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/#!/RexMayBaloo

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Rex May

rm...@mac.com

PHONE: 1-970-218-0889

All about me here:

http://www.baloocartoons.com

http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/BALOO-THE-CARTOONIST/375938452048

http://www.zazzle.com/rexfmay*

Follow me on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/#!/RexMayBaloo

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Rex May

rm...@mac.com

PHONE: 1-970-218-0889

All about me here:

http://www.baloocartoons.com

http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/BALOO-THE-CARTOONIST/375938452048

http://www.zazzle.com/rexfmay*

Follow me on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/#!/RexMayBaloo

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

Rex May

rm...@mac.com

PHONE: 1-970-218-0889

All about me here:

http://www.baloocartoons.com

http://balooscartoonblog.blogspot.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/BALOO-THE-CARTOONIST/375938452048

http://www.zazzle.com/rexfmay*

Follow me on Twitter:

http://twitter.com/#!/RexMayBaloo

[Jonathan Jones]

Alright. I'll see what everyone thinks of these two and let you know.

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

Did it two ways.  I think the 3-liner one is clearest to read.

On Mar 27, 2012, at 6:59 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:

I'm forwarding this to the community. To me, panel 8 looks a bit weird. In Lojban, {.i} is the start of a new sentence, not the end of one, so that's probably why. Could you re-do that one with {.i do ...} all on the same line?

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Rex May <rm...@mac.com> wrote:

5 more<lcpic0006.jpg><lcpic0007.jpg><lcpic0008.jpg><lcpic0009.jpg><lcpic0010.jpg>

[Jonathan Jones]

So, of the three versions of panel 8, which one do you like the most, considering the difference is purely visual spacing?

[ianek]

The second ("mi ninmu / .i do nanmu").

mu'o mi'e ianek

[Jonathan Jones]

So, only one person besides myself has shared their opinion, but we both like the second way best.

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[Remo Dentato]

On Wednesday, March 28, 2012, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, only one person besides myself has shared their opinion, but we both like the second way best.

I prefer the one with two lines. Only I would have liked them being in lowercase.

remod

[Jonathan Jones]

I knew I was going to hear about the capital-ness again! :D

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[Lee Carlson]

Using capitals, like failing to start each bridi with i simply sends an incongruent message with regard to how lojban is used. As long as we don't care about that, do whatever looks/feels right to the artist.

mi'e brais

[Jonathan Jones]

It's a small-caps font. Lojban doesn't care about capital or lowercase. The only time case matters is when marking non-default stress, and we have other, "prettier" ways of doing that, so it doesn't even really matter in those cases.

As far as "failing to start each bridi with .i", we humans do that all the time. Look at IRC chat. While we do without fail place .i between bridi in a single posting, we very seldom being a new one with it- even if no one else has said anything since the last one. The fact of it being a new post is apparently enough for us. It's the same thing with the panels.

Can we please stop being so damned nit-picky?

[Remo Dentato]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's a small-caps font. Lojban doesn't care about capital or lowercase.

Well, FWIW I do care.

I'm not against alternatve orthographies, though. There are many
around and I tried a couple of them as well.
I'm perfectly fine to say that all-uppercase is an alternative way to
write Lojban, it just seems odd to me that an introductory material
uses a non-standard notation.

> As far as "failing to start each bridi with .i", [...]

> Can we please stop being so damned nit-picky?

I just worry about the fact that this is a sort of level-0 material
and I would like to see certain aspect of Lojban making them
self-evident.

Anyway, as I had already said in other occasion, do not worry about
what we say. It's your work and it's up to you to decide how it should
be done. We can just suggest and complain :)

remod