zo'oi pomegranate se fanva fu ma
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gleki
Jul 7, 2012, 2:04:05 AM7/7/12
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zo'oi pomegranate se fanva fu ma
i lo nu bacru zo rutrgranate cu nandu mi
ianek
Jul 7, 2012, 4:02:09 AM7/7/12
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do kakne lo nu pilno la'o gy buffer vowel gy noi se valsi ma la lojban
mu'o mi'e ianek
mu'o mi'e ianek
Lindar
Jul 7, 2012, 6:17:06 AM7/7/12
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I suggest {granatu} from the linnean name "granatum".
gleki
Jul 7, 2012, 6:46:27 AM7/7/12
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oh my. I even adore this chaos in lojbanists' views.
To tell you the truth I don't like lujvo and fu'ivla Type 3 at all.
On Saturday, July 7, 2012 2:17:06 PM UTC+4, Lindar wrote:
I suggest {granatu} from the linnean name "granatum".
Your suggestion looks naturalistic but as for biological taxonomy everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Even biologists can't (and will never) come to a conclusion what to name this or that organism.
I think this is the only part of Lojban where we should "let usage decide".
In all the other cases Lojban must be regulated.
ianek
Jul 7, 2012, 7:46:10 AM7/7/12
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lujvo aren't half bad, but I don't think anybody loves stage-3
fu'ivla. The only advantage is that you have some hint on the meaning
if you hear the word for the first time. For the price of sounding
absolutely horrible.
On 7 Lip, 12:46, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> oh my. I even adore this chaos in lojbanists' views.
> To tell you the truth I don't like lujvo and fu'ivla Type 3 at all.
>
> On Saturday, July 7, 2012 2:17:06 PM UTC+4, Lindar wrote:
>
> > I suggest {granatu} from the linnean name "granatum".
>
> Your suggestion looks naturalistic but as for biological taxonomy everyone
> is right and everyone is wrong. Even biologists can't (and will never) come
> to a conclusion what to name this or that organism.
>
> I think this is the only part of Lojban where* *we should* "let usage
> decide".*
fu'ivla. The only advantage is that you have some hint on the meaning
if you hear the word for the first time. For the price of sounding
absolutely horrible.
On 7 Lip, 12:46, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> oh my. I even adore this chaos in lojbanists' views.
> To tell you the truth I don't like lujvo and fu'ivla Type 3 at all.
>
> On Saturday, July 7, 2012 2:17:06 PM UTC+4, Lindar wrote:
>
> > I suggest {granatu} from the linnean name "granatum".
>
> Your suggestion looks naturalistic but as for biological taxonomy everyone
> is right and everyone is wrong. Even biologists can't (and will never) come
> to a conclusion what to name this or that organism.
>
> decide".*
MorphemeAddict
Jul 7, 2012, 1:07:55 PM7/7/12
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And how do you propose that the language be regulated?
stevo
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Jacob Errington
Jul 7, 2012, 4:37:15 PM7/7/12
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It might be so that taxonomists can't figure out what to call this
thing or that thing, but they will eventually come to some kind of
conclusion, not to mention that such disagreements probably have to do
with species that're so uncommon or bizarre that we would most
certainly never need to actually talk about them, unless Lojban should
become the language of science, which is highly unlikely.
Concerning the fact that "no one like type-3 fu'ivla," it's my opinion
(and that of a handful of others on IRC) that type-3 are the ideal
solution for fu'ivla. On the other hand, I personally think that
type-4 zi'evla should be reserved/used primarily for lojban-based
zi'evla, which in my opinion are the good alternative to cimjvo.
Anyway, as for "pomegranate" itself, we had this discussion in IRC and
determined grutrgranate be the best word for it. Conversationally, I
think that you could presumably drop the grutr- after having said the
full word once or twice.
mu'o mi'e la tsani
thing or that thing, but they will eventually come to some kind of
conclusion, not to mention that such disagreements probably have to do
with species that're so uncommon or bizarre that we would most
certainly never need to actually talk about them, unless Lojban should
become the language of science, which is highly unlikely.
Concerning the fact that "no one like type-3 fu'ivla," it's my opinion
(and that of a handful of others on IRC) that type-3 are the ideal
solution for fu'ivla. On the other hand, I personally think that
type-4 zi'evla should be reserved/used primarily for lojban-based
zi'evla, which in my opinion are the good alternative to cimjvo.
Anyway, as for "pomegranate" itself, we had this discussion in IRC and
determined grutrgranate be the best word for it. Conversationally, I
think that you could presumably drop the grutr- after having said the
full word once or twice.
mu'o mi'e la tsani
Lindar
Jul 8, 2012, 3:49:32 AM7/8/12
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In all honesty my biggest complaint is the nagging idea that you prefer {granate} to {granatu} and named it thus because of the English name for the item and not the linnean name as is customary. It's my own weird twitch-reaction, but I'm going to cry malglitarmi on this simply for the fact that it is anything more than vaguely similar. It has nothing to do with a preferred final vowel and everything to do with the fact that you're making stuff look like English because you speak English.
gleki
Jul 8, 2012, 4:04:37 AM7/8/12
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On Saturday, July 7, 2012 9:07:55 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 6:46 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:oh my. I even adore this chaos in lojbanists' views.To tell you the truth I don't like lujvo and fu'ivla Type 3 at all.On Saturday, July 7, 2012 2:17:06 PM UTC+4, Lindar wrote:I suggest {granatu} from the linnean name "granatum".Your suggestion looks naturalistic but as for biological taxonomy everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Even biologists can't (and will never) come to a conclusion what to name this or that organism.I think this is the only part of Lojban where we should "let usage decide".In all the other cases Lojban must be regulated.And how do you propose that the language be regulated?
pe'i it was discussed long ago. Search for some Robin's paper called "Lojban, you are doing it wrong" or something.
stevo
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gleki
Jul 8, 2012, 4:10:26 AM7/8/12
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On Sunday, July 8, 2012 12:37:15 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
It might be so that taxonomists can't figure out what to call this
thing or that thing, but they will eventually come to some kind of
conclusion, not to mention that such disagreements probably have to do
with species that're so uncommon or bizarre that we would most
certainly never need to actually talk about them, unless Lojban should
become the language of science, which is highly unlikely.
Concerning the fact that "no one like type-3 fu'ivla," it's my opinion
(and that of a handful of others on IRC) that type-3 are the ideal
solution for fu'ivla. On the other hand, I personally think that
type-4 zi'evla should be reserved/used primarily for lojban-based
zi'evla, which in my opinion are the good alternative to cimjvo.
Type 3 fu'ivla is not unnaturalistic at all. Ancient Egyptian (ju'ocu'i the eldest written language that we are aware of)
actually had such type of words.
e.g.
pronounced as nfrw means "foundations of a house" where means house in order to distinguish it from other homophones pronounced as nfrw as well.It's like {grutrgranate} and {tricrgranate} in Lojban.
Anyway, as for "pomegranate" itself, we had this discussion in IRC and
determined grutrgranate be the best word for it. Conversationally, I
think that you could presumably drop the grutr- after having said the
full word once or twice.
mu'o mi'e la tsani
On 7 July 2012 13:07, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 6:46 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> oh my. I even adore this chaos in lojbanists' views.
>> To tell you the truth I don't like lujvo and fu'ivla Type 3 at all.
>>
>> On Saturday, July 7, 2012 2:17:06 PM UTC+4, Lindar wrote:
>>>
>>> I suggest {granatu} from the linnean name "granatum".
>>
>>
>> Your suggestion looks naturalistic but as for biological taxonomy everyone
>> is right and everyone is wrong. Even biologists can't (and will never) come
>> to a conclusion what to name this or that organism.
>>
>> I think this is the only part of Lojban where we should "let usage
>> decide".
>> In all the other cases Lojban must be regulated.
>
>
> And how do you propose that the language be regulated?
>
> stevo
>>
>>
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gleki
Jul 8, 2012, 4:11:35 AM7/8/12
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Sorry to say but I have to support Lindar's {granatu} Type 4 fu'ivla.
Don't ask me for any logic in such decision cuz I said earlier there could be no logic in this field at all.
gleki
Jul 8, 2012, 4:15:43 AM7/8/12
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On Sunday, July 8, 2012 12:37:15 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
It might be so that taxonomists can't figure out what to call this
thing or that thing, but they will eventually come to some kind of
conclusion,
^ ^ ^
No. the only way to true classification is non-linear descriptions of anatomy, genomes etc. which no speakable language in the world is capable of.
not to mention that such disagreements probably have to do
with species that're so uncommon or bizarre
No. Sometimes they argue whether foxes belong to dogs or should have a distinct taxon changing it's Linnean name accrodingly.
It's stupid. Change you databases but don't change Linnean names to preserve ... "backward compatibility" (have those mad biologists ever heard about such thing as "backward compatibility"?)
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Jacob Errington
Jul 8, 2012, 5:03:19 AM7/8/12
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Er, no? The rationale behind using -e and not -u is that the final
vowel from the fu'ivla head is -e and because in latin, the final
vowel is not really a true constituent of the *word*. The root itself
ends in a consonant, and therefore the final vowel has little real
bearing on the meaning, aside from grammatical implications. So no,
this isn't a malgli fu'ivla at all, especially considering that in
English, the word doesn't even end in a vowel (in speech, of course),
so "pomegranate" is lojbanised to {pamygranet} (probably, I'm no
expert on lojbanisation; I prefer to use real lojban words over
lojbanisations any day).
What'd be unjustifiably malglico would be {grutrpamagranete} and that
certainly isn't the case with {grutrgranate} which is justified in all
aspects.
mu'o mi'e la tsani
vowel from the fu'ivla head is -e and because in latin, the final
vowel is not really a true constituent of the *word*. The root itself
ends in a consonant, and therefore the final vowel has little real
bearing on the meaning, aside from grammatical implications. So no,
this isn't a malgli fu'ivla at all, especially considering that in
English, the word doesn't even end in a vowel (in speech, of course),
so "pomegranate" is lojbanised to {pamygranet} (probably, I'm no
expert on lojbanisation; I prefer to use real lojban words over
lojbanisations any day).
What'd be unjustifiably malglico would be {grutrpamagranete} and that
certainly isn't the case with {grutrgranate} which is justified in all
aspects.
mu'o mi'e la tsani
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gleki
Jul 8, 2012, 5:27:25 AM7/8/12
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On Sunday, July 8, 2012 1:03:19 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
Er, no?
If you mean my "No", i was replying to this phrase "It might be so that taxonomists can't figure out what to call this
thing or that thing, but they will eventually come to some kind of
conclusion," only.
I can agree with the rest, though
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Jacob Errington
Jul 8, 2012, 11:18:42 AM7/8/12
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Ah, gleki, I was pretty much only disagreeing with lindar. Assuming
"punica granatum" is the correct name, and that the thing is question
*is* a fruit, {grutrgranate} is the right type-3 for it.
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"punica granatum" is the correct name, and that the thing is question
*is* a fruit, {grutrgranate} is the right type-3 for it.
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Pierre Abbat
Jul 8, 2012, 1:48:55 PM7/8/12
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On Sunday, July 08, 2012 01:10:26 AM gleki wrote:
> Type 3 fu'ivla is not unnaturalistic at all. Ancient Egyptian (ju'ocu'i the
> eldest written language that we are aware of)
> actually had such type of words.
> e.g.
> [image: nfr][image: nfr][image: nfr][image: pr] pronounced as *nfrw *means
> Type 3 fu'ivla is not unnaturalistic at all. Ancient Egyptian (ju'ocu'i the
> eldest written language that we are aware of)
> actually had such type of words.
> e.g.
> "foundations of a house" where [image: pr] means house in order to
> distinguish it from other homophones pronounced as *nfrw* as well.
>
> It's like {grutrgranate} and {tricrgranate} in Lojban.
The Egyptian writing system has nothing to do with rafsi classifiers on
> It's like {grutrgranate} and {tricrgranate} in Lojban.
borrowed words. A better natlang example of a type-3 fu'ivla is "weeverfish"
(or "weaverfish"), where "weever" is from Old French and "fish" is native.
On Sunday, July 08, 2012 01:11:35 AM gleki wrote:
> Sorry to say but I have to support Lindar's {granatu} Type 4 fu'ivla.
> Don't ask me for any logic in such decision cuz I said earlier there could
> be no logic in this field at all.
"granate", which is the vocative, which was lost.
Another possibility is "rimbone" or "rumbona", from Semitic, with "b" thrown
in for the morphology.
Pierre
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li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
Jonathan Jones
Jul 8, 2012, 2:10:36 PM7/8/12
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Personally, being one of those people who hates fu'ivla of any kind, I like {tsiplise}, myself.
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
gleki
Jul 9, 2012, 1:32:34 AM7/9/12
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On Sunday, July 8, 2012 10:10:36 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Personally, being one of those people who hates fu'ivla of any kind, I like {tsiplise}, myself.
(facepalm)
I like this word too. Should I create a third version of this pixra?
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Jonathan Jones
Jul 9, 2012, 2:05:56 AM7/9/12
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Should? I can't answer that. Do it if you want to.
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gleki
Jul 9, 2012, 2:33:10 AM7/9/12
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It just reminds me of tatoeba where many lojbanic sentences have 2-3 versions like jbobau/banjubu'o/la .lojban.
Flexibility and synonymy is great but sometimes we need to choose one way not to be misunderstood by others.
Jonathan Jones
Jul 9, 2012, 2:42:25 AM7/9/12
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That's not a Lojban specific thing. Every language has that.
For example, you can call a person attractive, pretty, beautiful, handsome, sexy, cute, hot,...
For example, you can call a person attractive, pretty, beautiful, handsome, sexy, cute, hot,...
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Paul Predkiewicz
Jul 9, 2012, 6:43:16 AM7/9/12
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I think {tsiplise} is awesome. Allthough it's pulp really is more like
from a berry, but since on the outside it looks like an apple, one
might consider {tsijbaplise}
Or, you could even put the phoenecians into the game, "who were active
in broadening its cultivation, partly for religious reasons." as
wikipedia puts it.
just my 2 one-hundredth subdivisions of several units of currency...
from a berry, but since on the outside it looks like an apple, one
might consider {tsijbaplise}
Or, you could even put the phoenecians into the game, "who were active
in broadening its cultivation, partly for religious reasons." as
wikipedia puts it.
just my 2 one-hundredth subdivisions of several units of currency...
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>>>
>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>>>
>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
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> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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Jonathan Jones
Jul 9, 2012, 10:07:15 AM7/9/12
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I got {tsiplise} by looking up the etymology of "pomegranate", which is "seeded apple". Adding more bits just makes the word more complicated.
gleki
Jul 9, 2012, 11:12:44 AM7/9/12
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On Monday, July 9, 2012 6:07:15 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
I got {tsiplise} by looking up the etymology of "pomegranate", which is "seeded apple". Adding more bits just makes the word more complicated.
It does. That's why I like it. But it's malglico if we copy the structure of zo'oi pomegranate
And that's might be a drawback.
Pomegranates have no relation to apples.
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>>>
>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
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>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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Jonathan Jones
Jul 9, 2012, 11:24:27 AM7/9/12
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I wouldn't say "no relation". They're both fruit. :)
And it's not maglico to translate a name that in nearly every language is derived from it's LATIN name.
And it's not maglico to translate a name that in nearly every language is derived from it's LATIN name.
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Jonathan Jones
Jul 9, 2012, 11:28:26 AM7/9/12
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Also, it doesn't matter how much kinship pomegranates and apples share, for the same reason it doesn't matter that lo latcribe is neither bear nor cat. Descriptive metaphors are to'e forbidden in Lojban.
gleki
Jul 9, 2012, 12:02:13 PM7/9/12
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On Monday, July 9, 2012 7:28:26 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Also, it doesn't matter how much kinship pomegranates and apples share, for the same reason it doesn't matter that lo latcribe is neither bear nor cat. Descriptive metaphors are to'e forbidden in Lojban.
True. So we have
fu'ivla Type 3 - 1 vote (la tsani).
fu'ivla Type 4 - 1.5 votes (la .lindar. + 1/2 la gleki zo'o)
lujvo - 1.5 votes (la .aionys. + 1/2 la gleki)
We had no voices for experimental gismu (Save endangered Free gismu space! it's becoming too small) and cmene (but it's obvious).
I believe for every proposal for plants and animals we'll have the same distribution of voices.
We've got a good poll actually.
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
.arpis.
Jul 9, 2012, 1:35:55 PM7/9/12
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On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn't say "no relation". They're both fruit. :)
And it's not maglico to translate a name that in nearly every language is derived from it's LATIN name.
Notable exceptions (notable in that I have some familiarity with them and bothered to look them up on wiktionary) seem to include Hebrew and seemingly (but I can't be sure) three Asiatic languages (Japanese, Chinese, and Korean).
--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.
Jonathan Jones
Jul 9, 2012, 2:05:13 PM7/9/12
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On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:35 AM, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:I wouldn't say "no relation". They're both fruit. :)
And it's not maglico to translate a name that in nearly every language is derived from it's LATIN name.
Notable exceptions (notable in that I have some familiarity with them and bothered to look them up on wiktionary) seem to include Hebrew and seemingly (but I can't be sure) three Asiatic languages (Japanese, Chinese, and Korean).
My point was that it's not malglico because it's not glico, regardless of whether it's mabla.
.arpis.
Jul 9, 2012, 3:25:35 PM7/9/12
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Point taken.
Pierre Abbat
Jul 10, 2012, 2:02:07 AM7/10/12
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On Monday, July 09, 2012 09:28:26 AM Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Also, it doesn't matter how much kinship pomegranates and apples share, for
> the same reason it doesn't matter that lo latcribe is neither bear nor cat.
> Descriptive metaphors are to'e forbidden in Lojban.
lo latcribe be la barda ku ja'a cribe .iku'i lo latcribe be la cmalu cu se
> Also, it doesn't matter how much kinship pomegranates and apples share, for
> the same reason it doesn't matter that lo latcribe is neither bear nor cat.
> Descriptive metaphors are to'e forbidden in Lojban.
steci lo ka lazyjutsi pamei
On Monday, July 09, 2012 12:43:16 PM Paul Predkiewicz wrote:
> Or, you could even put the phoenecians into the game, "who were active
> in broadening its cultivation, partly for religious reasons." as
> wikipedia puts it.
calling it "rimbone", as Phoenician was closely related to Hebrew. Or should
it be "rimbonu"?
Pierre
--
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera
Jonathan Jones
Jul 10, 2012, 2:29:28 AM7/10/12
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On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Monday, July 09, 2012 09:28:26 AM Jonathan Jones wrote:lo latcribe be la barda ku ja'a cribe .iku'i lo latcribe be la cmalu cu se
> Also, it doesn't matter how much kinship pomegranates and apples share, for
> the same reason it doesn't matter that lo latcribe is neither bear nor cat.
> Descriptive metaphors are to'e forbidden in Lojban.
steci lo ka lazyjutsi pamei
Yes, I know. The Red Panda is cousin of the racoon. I should've realized that latcribe referred to Giant Panda as well.
On Monday, July 09, 2012 12:43:16 PM Paul Predkiewicz wrote:The Phoenicians being active in broadening its cultivation is an argument for
> Or, you could even put the phoenecians into the game, "who were active
> in broadening its cultivation, partly for religious reasons." as
> wikipedia puts it.
calling it "rimbone", as Phoenician was closely related to Hebrew. Or should
it be "rimbonu"?
Pierre
--
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera
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Michael Turniansky
Aug 22, 2012, 9:18:25 AM8/22/12
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Except that interposing an arbitrary consonant for the purposes of lojbanization would destroy the triliteral root, and make it look like it comes from "r-m-b", which is non-existent (at least in Hebrew). So in this case I'd prefer to not use the Semitic.
--gejyspa
P.S. Put me down for preferring type-3 fu'ivla over type 4 (but in this case, I wouldn't mind either one, and like the lujvo best).
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