{me ko'a} instead of {broda} ?

[gleki]

I wonder how to express the phrase "he is the owner of two cafes" using {ko'a} ("he") and {ko'e} (each of the cafes)

{ko'a ponse lo re me ko'e goi lo gusta} ?

{broda} series won't work if in the following text each of the cafes is described.

[Jonathan Jones]

I would go with {ko'a ponse ko'e goi re gusta}. It seems to me you're overthinking it a tad.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/kszrSxLem-wJ.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[gleki]

No ! What you suggest is that {ko'e} is two restaurants. But I need {ko'e} to be each of the restaurants !

On Friday, March 9, 2012 9:18:50 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

I would go with {ko'a ponse ko'e goi re gusta}. It seems to me you're overthinking it a tad.

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:35 PM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder how to express the phrase "he is the owner of two cafes" using {ko'a} ("he") and {ko'e} (each of the cafes)

{ko'a ponse lo re me ko'e goi lo gusta} ?

{broda} series won't work if in the following text each of the cafes is described.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/kszrSxLem-wJ.

To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.

[Jonathan Jones]

You want the term ko'e to refer to the two restaurants collectively, you want {ko'e goi re gusta}, or {ko'e goi re le gusta} if you want to explicit about specificity.

If you want to refer to them individually, I don't think that's possible with only one term.

What you have means the pretty much same thing as what I wrote, although your ko'e assignment is different and your bridi is obviously much more complicated:

ko'a ponse lo re me ko'e goi lo gusta

ko'a owns two of something that is amongst (ko'e = one or more things that actually is a restaraunt).
Ko'a owns two things that are ko'e, where ko'e is "one or more restaraunts"

ko'a ponse ko'e goi re gusta

ko'a owns (ko'e = two restaraunts).
ko'a owns ko'e, where ko'e is "two restaraunts"

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/QdVUwPSUNJkJ.

To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.

[gleki]

OK. So imagine that one restaurant is a fish restaurant. Another one is a pancake restaurant.

A fish one.

A pancake one.

How do I refer do them in the following text ?

Obviously English word "one" should correspond to {broda} or {ko'a}. How do I achieve this ?

[ianek]

Maybe {lo finpe me ko'e}? {me} clauses can be used in tanru. And
{ko'e} may be defined as aionys suggested.

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 9 Mar, 08:19, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK. So imagine that one restaurant is a fish restaurant. Another one is a
> pancake restaurant.
>
> A fish one.
> A pancake one.
>
> How do I refer do them in the following text ?
>
> Obviously English word "one" should correspond to {broda} or {ko'a}. How do
> I achieve this ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, March 9, 2012 10:32:21 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> > You want the term ko'e to refer to the two restaurants collectively, you
> > want {ko'e goi re gusta}, or {ko'e goi re le gusta} if you want to explicit
> > about specificity.
>
> > If you want to refer to them individually, I don't think that's possible
> > with only one term.
>
> > What you have means the pretty much same thing as what I wrote, although
> > your ko'e assignment is different and your bridi is obviously much more
> > complicated:
> > ko'a ponse lo re me ko'e goi lo gusta
> > ko'a owns two of something that is amongst (ko'e = one or more things that
> > actually is a restaraunt).
> > Ko'a owns two things that are ko'e, where ko'e is "one or more restaraunts"
>
> > ko'a ponse ko'e goi re gusta
> > ko'a owns (ko'e = two restaraunts).
> > ko'a owns ko'e, where ko'e is "two restaraunts"
>

> > On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:13 PM, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> No ! What you suggest is that {ko'e} is two restaurants. But I need
> >> {ko'e} to be each of the restaurants !
>
> >> On Friday, March 9, 2012 9:18:50 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
> >>> I would go with {ko'a ponse ko'e goi re gusta}. It seems to me you're
> >>> overthinking it a tad.
>

> >>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:35 PM, gleki <gleki.is.my.n...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>> I wonder how to express the phrase "he is the owner of two cafes" using
> >>>> {ko'a} ("he") and {ko'e} (each of the cafes)
>
> >>>> {ko'a ponse lo re me ko'e goi lo gusta} ?
>
> >>>> {broda} series won't work if in the following text each of the cafes is
> >>>> described.
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.

> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/**
> >>>> msg/lojban-beginners/-/**kszrSxLem-wJ<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/kszrSxLem-wJ>
> >>>> .
> >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.**
> >>>> com <lojban-b...@googlegroups.com>.

> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscr i...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>> .
> >>>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/**
> >>>> group/lojban-beginners?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en>
> >>>> .

>
> >>> --
> >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> >>>  --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/QdVUwPSUNJkJ.
>

> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.

> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >> lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.

[Jonathan Jones]

If you wanted to refer to them individually, as far as I am aware, you'd have to either call them directly ({le finpe gusta} and {le pinynabycerni gusta) (Note: There's no current valsi I know of for pancake. I'm using "flat breakfast bread" for it.)), or assign them individually.

I suppose you could say something like {le finpe me ko'e}. Although that sounds ugly to me, I believe it would work for either your or my assignment of ko'e, the difference being that your assignment of ko'e would make {le finpe me ko'e} refer to a fish restaraunt out of the set of all existing restaraunts, whereas my ko'e would make it refer to a fish restaraunt out of the set of two restaraunts, regardless of how many exist.

Now that I think about it, I think the best assignment for ko'e would be {ko'e goi re ko'a gusta}, since you are wanting to talk about HIS two restaraunts.

So, with all that in mind, my best guess would be:

ko'a ponse ko'e goi re ko'a gusta
ko'a owns ko'e, where ko'e is his two restaurants.
ko'a owns two restaurants.

.i lo finpe me ko'e vi zvati lo xamsi
The fish type-of ko'e is near the ocean.
His fish restaurant is near the ocean.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/pxN0SfjwtLMJ.

To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you wanted to refer to them individually, as far as I am aware, you'd have to either call them directly ({le finpe gusta} and {le pinynabycerni gusta) (Note: There's no current valsi I know of for pancake. I'm using "flat breakfast bread" for it.)), or assign them individually.

I suppose you could say something like {le finpe me ko'e}. Although that sounds ugly to me, I believe it would work for either your or my assignment of ko'e, the difference being that your assignment of ko'e would make {le finpe me ko'e} refer to a fish restaraunt out of the set of all existing restaraunts, whereas my ko'e would make it refer to a fish restaraunt out of the set of two restaraunts, regardless of how many exist.

Now that I think about it, I think the best assignment for ko'e would be {ko'e goi re ko'a gusta}, since you are wanting to talk about HIS two restaraunts.

So, with all that in mind, my best guess would be:

ko'a ponse ko'e goi re ko'a gusta
ko'a owns ko'e, where ko'e is his two restaurants.
ko'a owns two restaurants.

.i lo finpe me ko'e vi zvati lo xamsi
The fish type-of ko'e is near the ocean.

Sorry, that should be "The fish type-of things-which-are-ko'e is near the ocean."
 

[Jonathan Jones]

Another thing I nearly forgot to mention.

lo gusta = "one or more things which actually is a restaurant" = "(a) restaurant(s)"
re gusta = re lo gusta = "two things which actually are restaurants" = "two restaurants".
re lo pa gusta = "one of two things (blah blah)" = "one of two restaurants".
lo re gusta = "two of one or more things (blah blah)" = "two of X restaurants", where X is an unstated number.

In PA1 lo PA2 broda, PA1 is the number of things, PA2 is how many of PA1 we're currently talking about.

I just wanted to mention that because you originally wrote {ko'a ponse lo re me ko'e goi lo gusta}.

[gleki]

On Friday, March 9, 2012 11:56:46 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you wanted to refer to them individually, as far as I am aware, you'd have to either call them directly ({le finpe gusta} and {le pinynabycerni gusta) (Note: There's no current valsi I know of for pancake. I'm using "flat breakfast bread" for it.)), or assign them individually.

I suppose you could say something like {le finpe me ko'e}. Although that sounds ugly to me, I believe it would work for either your or my assignment of ko'e, the difference being that your assignment of ko'e would make {le finpe me ko'e} refer to a fish restaraunt out of the set of all existing restaraunts, whereas my ko'e would make it refer to a fish restaraunt out of the set of two restaraunts, regardless of how many exist.

Now that I think about it, I think the best assignment for ko'e would be {ko'e goi re ko'a gusta}, since you are wanting to talk about HIS two restaraunts.

So, with all that in mind, my best guess would be:

ko'a ponse ko'e goi re ko'a gusta

I guess it should be  {ko'a ponse ko'e goi re LO ko'a gusta} otherwise it won't parse.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 1:44 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, March 9, 2012 11:56:46 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

ko'a ponse ko'e goi re ko'a gusta

I guess it should be  {ko'a ponse ko'e goi re LO ko'a gusta} otherwise it won't parse.

<snip>

Yes, my mistake. {... re gusta pe ko'a} would also work.

[Lindar]

re gusta = re lo gusta = "two things which actually are restaurants" = "two restaurants".
re lo pa gusta = "one of two things (blah blah)" = "one of two restaurants".
lo re gusta = "two of one or more things (blah blah)" = "two of X restaurants", where X is an unstated number.

You have this backward. One of two restaurants is {pa lo re gusta}.

Source: genrei 

[Jonathan Jones]

No I don't.

How to use xorlo

• lo with an outer quantifier, which is exactly the same thing as just sticking a number before an item (i.e. "mu lo bakni" == "mu bakni" == "five cows), works pretty much as before: "five things that really are cows".
• lo's inner quantifier indicates the number of things we're talking about....

Also, quoting a source and not linking to it is poor taste. I'm assuming you mean http://genrei.lojban.org/, in which case the only things that gives such information are the "Translate" choices, which obviously use jbofi'e, as it gives the same output, and jbofi'e was made pre-xorlo. The meanings of inner and outer quantifiers of lo were quite drastically changed by xorlo.
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/MfJKX8-cmqgJ.

To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.

[ianek]

It can also be deduced from "BPFK Section: gadri".

We have definitions:
lo [PA] broda zo'e noi ke'a broda [gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda]
PA [sumti] PA da poi ke'a me [sumti]

So, {pa lo re gusta} translates to {pa da poi ke'a me zo'e noi ke'a
gusta gi'e zilkancu li re lo gusta}
ie.
"one (quantified) thing which is one of something, which is
restaurant(s) and consists of two counting by units of restaurants" or
something like that, or if you'd like it put more simply: "Never
imagine yourself..." err sorry, "one of two restaurants".

mu'o mi'e ianek

[ianek]

Sorry for quoting and not linking: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK+Section%3A+gadri

As for "How to use xorlo", I understand it differently:

- lo with an outer quantifier, which is exactly the same thing as

just
sticking a number before an item (i.e. "mu lo bakni" == "mu bakni"
== "five
cows), works pretty much as before: "five things that really are
cows".

- lo's inner quantifier indicates the number of things we're
talking
about....

When we have both outer and inner quantifier, eg. {re lo mu bakni}, it
tells that we're talking about five cows, ie. the universe of disourse
contains five cows, but the number of cows we're stating something
about is two. And also, I think that this quoted text is not quite
clear.

mu'o mi'e ianek

[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 2:41 AM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry for quoting and not linking: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK+Section%3A+gadri

As for "How to use xorlo", I understand it differently:

  - lo with an outer quantifier, which is exactly the same thing as

just
  sticking a number before an item (i.e. "mu lo bakni" == "mu bakni"
== "five
  cows), works pretty much as before: "five things that really are
cows".

  - lo's inner quantifier indicates the number of things we're
talking
  about....

When we have both outer and inner quantifier, eg. {re lo mu bakni}, it
tells that we're talking about five cows, ie. the universe of disourse
contains five cows, but the number of cows we're stating something
about is two. And also, I think that this quoted text is not quite
clear.

Agreed. I've been double-checking my previous statement. Part of that involved determining when xorlo was accepted by the BPFK vs. when those definitions you quoted were written (as it was possible the definitions were for pre-xorlo lo). From what that text says, my statement is at least a likely interpretation, if not as is my opinion, the most likely. It is also wrong, as can be seen by the definitions, which I have determined are not pre-xorlo. So, yes, it should be {pa lo re ...} not {re lo pa ...}. I'll determine a better wording for what I quoted and update the page accordingly, so that we can prevent future jbopre from repeating my mistake.
 

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 9 Mar, 10:29, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It can also be deduced from "BPFK Section: gadri".
>
> We have definitions:
> lo [PA] broda    zo'e noi ke'a broda [gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda]
> PA [sumti]               PA da poi ke'a me [sumti]
>
> So, {pa lo re gusta} translates to {pa da poi ke'a me zo'e noi ke'a
> gusta gi'e zilkancu li re lo gusta}
> ie.
> "one (quantified) thing which is one of something, which is
> restaurant(s) and consists of two counting by units of restaurants" or
> something like that, or if you'd like it put more simply: "Never
> imagine yourself..." err sorry, "one of two restaurants".
>
> mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> On 9 Mar, 10:12, Lindar <lindartheb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > re gusta = re lo gusta = "two things which actually are restaurants" =
> > > "two restaurants".
> > > re lo pa gusta = "one of two things (blah blah)" = "one of two
> > > restaurants".
> > > lo re gusta = "two of one or more things (blah blah)" = "two of X
> > > restaurants", where X is an unstated number.
>
> > You have this backward. One of two restaurants is {pa lo re gusta}.
> > Source: genrei

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.

To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.

[Jonathan Jones]

I was at a loss for a better way to word the comments about inner quantifiers, so I just added the following:

lo with both an inner and outer quantifier indicates how many of the things we are talking about are involved in the bridi. "mu lo pano bakni cu bevri lo pipno" means "Five of the ten cows each carried a piano individually".

[Michael Turniansky]

  While you can use the me construction, what you want (but why you would want it, I don't know ;-) ) is 

ko'a ponse re gusta cei broda [no'e pa finpe broda ku jo'u pa za'e pankeiki broda]

                    --gejyspa

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/pxN0SfjwtLMJ.

To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.

[Michael Turniansky]

 (sorry, typo -- no'e should be no'u)

[gleki]

  While you can use the me construction, what you want (but why you would want it, I don't know ;-) ) is 

ko'a ponse re gusta cei broda [no'u pa finpe broda ku jo'u pa za'e pankeiki broda]

 Thank you. I also think that broda series better suit such situations than ko'a.

By the way, is {lo broda ku} = {ko'a} ?

[Michael Turniansky]

Ummm.. I don't think I would make that equivalence, no.  

Be careful using broda, though, since the most prevalent use of it is as a place holder to show constructions in lojban.  In those uses it remains undefined, and jbopre are most used to seeing them that way.

             --gejyspa

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/-/P8efomhn6m4J.

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

>> By the way, is {lo broda ku} = {ko'a} ?

No.
For one thing, you can't assign {lo broda} to an arbitrary sumti as
you assign {ko'a}.
For instance, you may say
{ti goi ko'a grana .i ko'a melbi},
but the plain substitution
{ti goi lo broda cu grana .i lo broda cu melbi}
is not ok.

You could say
{ti grana cei broda .i lo broda cu melbi},
but, I guess, this would be equivalent to
{ti grana .i lo grana cu melbi},
where {lo grana} need not be the rod you were pointing to.

Hope it clarifies.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.