JED Listings Caution
Nick Savov
Just a word of caution, if you have any GPL extensions that are listed
on the JED and some non-GPL extensions on your own site, all your
extensions on the JED *may* be unpublished from the JED.
See:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=655313
Kind regards,
Nick
Rob Stocker
I've read your posts on the forum and wish to congratulate you for taking this issue to heart , and supporting hikashop the way you did. Highly commendable.
I think the rule should be clearly placed in the TOS and strictly adhered to.
I was stunned today while hacking away at Frontpage Slideshow only to discover it was not GPL. I have been using this extension on numerous sites, under the assumption that it was on the JED. I have used a joomlaworks extension on every site I've ever built and I feel I was tricked.
I happily pay for extensions and will even use a non-gpl one if I have no other option. But I expect anything that revolves around the official joomsphere to be safe and I should not be obliged to double check the licences for every extension I buy. (- the notion of having to check the licence of a gpl derivative is absurd by definition.)
I also think that those who don't release ALL their joomla extensions as gpl (or encode their own framework plugins) send out the wrong message to the community. It's as if they comply with the gpl when and where they do, only because they have to, to stay on the JED.. And the fact that large players within our community do this, really irks me.
thanks for highlighting this important topic.
Rob
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
To post to this group, send an email to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
--
Rob & Lisa - EMC23
083 416 0618
091 877 335
in...@emc23.com
www.emc23.com
brian teeman
Nicholas Dionysopoulos
Nick Savov
responses I've gotten today from different people! Based on those
responses, I know that Joomla and the Joomla community will only be
stronger once all the dust settles! :)
Kind regards,
Nick
> <http://goog_1827821969>091 877 335
> in...@emc23.com
> www.emc23.com
>
Nick Savov
Kind regards,
Nick
> Hasn't there always been the rule that JED will not link to sites that
> promote and distribute non GPL extensions.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/dmsUkkNf5gwJ.
Nick Savov
http://www.joomlaworks.gr/content/view/23/33/
FrontPage Slideshow is non-GPL now.
Kind regards,
Nick
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
--
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
On Thursday, 15 September 2011 at 23:55, Nick Savov wrote:
Not according to their new terms and conditions:
http://www.joomlaworks.gr/content/view/23/33/
FrontPage Slideshow is non-GPL now.
Kind regards,
Nick
Hi Rob,
AFAIK, FrontPage Slideshow is GPL (the PHP part of it), but it also
contains some non-GPL JavaScript. This is not against the GPL as,
technically, JS and CSS are media files and not linked directly with the
PHP code. In terms of relation to the code, they constitute aggregation
and are therefore not subject to the terms of the GPL which pertains to
the rest of the code. It's the same as templates which have a GPL PHP
framework and proprietary graphics files. If, however, you found a non-GPL
PHP file, let me know so that I can inform Fotis (the owner of JoomlaWorks
who I also know personally) so that they can fix that issue.
Cheers,
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
Web: https://www.akeebabackup.com
Blog: http://www.dionysopoulos.me/blog
Sent from my iPad. Please excuse my brevity.
15 Óåð 2011, 22:53, ï/ç Rob Stocker <in...@emc23.com> Ýãñáøå:
Nick Savov
Yeah, it is disappointing but I can't blame JoomlaWorks for wanting to
make a living off of their work. Part of the bigger problem is that some
parts of the JED are very closed and unresponsive (I had difficulty find
the words, but I think those two explain it) and that makes it very
difficult to continue a thriving extension community and even more
difficult for individual developers to stick around when they are ignored
.
Examples of unresponsiveness would be going 3 months, 1 month, 2 months
without a reply (happens quite a bit...just check the JED forum). It's
hard to run a business focused around Joomla when your extension goes
unpublished for long periods of time (as the JED puts it..."Up to 31 days
or more") and the JED Team doesn't make any contact for over a month.
It's very unprofessional going that long without a reply.
But they are just volunteers right? Kind of, quite a bit more though. They
are in volunteer positions and we've entrusted them with certain
responsibilities. When you don't hear from someone for three months after
repeated attempts at contact, that's negligence.
I truly do understand that (1) they can't do everything and respond
instantly and (2) that it should be a community effort. The JED is the
community's responsibility and is not solely on the shoulders of the JED
Team. So the solution is to get more of the community involved to help on
the JED Team, BUT... it's closed (due to unresponsiveness).
A great example of being closed would be someone (or several people)
volunteering to help and never getting a reply back.
A totally different example of being closed is in the way of thinking. I
remember you had a blog post about an index.html
(http://www.dionysopoulos.me/blog/the-files-of-wrath). The reasonable
thing in that situation isn't "these are the rules, we're not changing
them." I had a very similar experience with the JED Team (specifically
one person) and the more I'm around the more occurrences I see of these
sort of things happening to other people.
I've given many praises to the JED Team in the past and still give praise
where praise is due, but I can't turn a blind eye (or close my mouth:P )
when our community members like Hikashop are being ignored and
discriminated. If Hikashop goes, who's next? I love Joomla and it's
community and want to see their success.
Kind regards,
Nick
>> > Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com (http://AkeebaBackup.com)
>> > Web: https://www.akeebabackup.com
>> > Blog: http://www.dionysopoulos.me/blog
>> > Sent from my iPad. Please excuse my brevity.
>> > 15 ��� 2011, 22:53, �/� Rob Stocker <in...@emc23.com
>> (mailto:in...@emc23.com)> ������:
>> (mailto:ni...@iowawebcompany.com)>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > Hey everyone,
>> > > Just a word of caution, if you have any GPL extensions that are
>> listed
>> > > on the JED and some non-GPL extensions on your own site, all your
extensions on the JED *may* be unpublished from the JED.
>> > > See:
>> > > http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=655313
>> > > Kind regards,
>> > > Nick
>> > > --
>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>> > > To post to this group, send an email to
>> > > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
>> (mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com).
>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com
>> (mailto:joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com).
>> > > For more options, visit this group at
>> > > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB. -- Rob
& Lisa - EMC23
>> > > 083 416 0618
>> > > 091 877 335
>> > > in...@emc23.com (mailto:in...@emc23.com)
>> > > www.emc23.com (http://www.emc23.com)
>> > > --
>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>> > > To post to this group, send an email to
>> > > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
>> (mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com).
>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com
>> (mailto:joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com).
>> > > For more options, visit this group at
>> > > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> > "Joomla! General Development" group.
>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>> > joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
>> (mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com).
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com
>> (mailto:joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com).
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>> To post to this group, send an email to
>> joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
>> (mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com).
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com
>> (mailto:joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com).
Marius van Rijnsoever
Its really sad to read that JED is causing a nightmare for "selected
developers" only. Reading the forum posts it seems that a developer
made an easy mistake in the description of his extension (which he
fixed immediately) and has never been able to republish his extension
as then different "violations" were applied and the JED team is
unresponsive for more than 3 months. Either the rule "no non-GPL
extension should be present on the developers website" should be
applied to all or it should be removed.
option 1:
If this rule is applied to all JED, it would result in hundreds of the
current listings being removed including many popular extension.
option 2:
This rule should really be removed as it does not make sense and is
unfairly penalising a selected few "offenders".
It is understandable that there is a waiting period for many things in
the JED, as it is run by volunteers. However this should NOT be the
case when listings have been removed by the JED team itself. You can
not take away the livelihood of developers and then never again be
heard of.
Thanks, Marius
Terrance Arthur
I'm glad some of us are paying attention. Thanks guys. I wonder if it would be any more productive if we moved this conversation to the jPeople group for the JED
they claimed one year ago:
"At the Joomla! Extensions Directory (JED) we welcome your suggestions
and input. We've asked for your input on our rating system, listing
descriptions, review system, and our Terms of Service (TOS). The
suggestions coming in have been great and we really appreciate the
in-depth discussions that have been taking place. Thank you for taking
time out of your day to give us your opinion.
We now want to go one step further to help facilitate these discussions.
The JED board on the Joomla! forum has been overwhelmed with a variety
of topics, and it is starting to get difficult to sort between support
topics and suggestion topics. In order to better receive community
input, we would like to ask everyone to utilize the
J!People JED Group to make suggestions and have discussions for changes to the way the site and Team operate."
It would at least publicize this issue more if these very cogent arguments were put on the web for all to read.
I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards,
Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
Always in touch with my clients!
24/7 toll free support (800) 669-0729 or text (904) 385-0043
LinkedIn 
StumbleUpon 
TwitterContact me:
terry...@gmail.com 
terryarthur 
terry...@gmail.com 
terrancewarthur 
terry...@gmail.com
elin
Nick Savov
Great feedback! I respect you and the work that you do every much, so I
hope you don't take my following questions the wrong way or out of
context:
If it's a JED policy then why does JoomlaWorks not have to follow it?
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2614470#p2614470
If it's a JED policy then why does the leader of the JED team (who should
know the policy) make an exception for JoomlaWorks but not AcyMailing or
Hikashop?
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2614489#p2614489
If it's a JED policy then why is this not in the Terms of Service?
http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
If it's a JED policy, when and where was it publicly stated as a JED policy?
If it's a JED policy, why won't the JED talk about it?
As extension developers we agree to the TOS upon submitting extensions. If
it's a policy put it on the TOS. It's unfair, and just plain wrong, of
the JED Team to go 3 months without responding to someone when that person
has made every effort to be compliant (as is even now changing the pro
version to GPL, which will be available in October) and then to turn
around and give someone else preferential treatment!
Kind regards,
Nick
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/VozWW5dArekJ.
Terrance Arthur
I agree carrots are way better than sticks and stones
it does seems like the JED covered themselves and the unequal treatment with the "but not the obligation" part
they can leave in or put out whatever they want
but they clearly state that they can penalize you for an amount of time based on the frequency and seriousness of the violations - perhaps that is the source of the unequal treatment the complaints are about?
F - Violations of the Terms of Use and/or Directory Guidelines
We
reserve the right, but not the obligation, to monitor the content of
the Joomla Extensions Directory and usage of the site. Any activity
that is suspected to be in conflict with the rules, as determined by the
CLT, Joomla Extensions Directory team management or their appointees,
will:
- Be investigated by the assigned team member in conjunction with a Team Manager. During the time of investigation, up to 14 days, a listing may be temporarily unpublished and the listing owner notified. If an email is sent to the listing owner during this time, a response must be received within 5 days, otherwise the investigation will end and the listing owner will have waived their rights to a suspension review.
- If a violation is found, the violating account will be immediately deactivated and any listings will be unpublished for a defined period based on the frequency of violations and the level of seriousness.
Depending on the Suspension period, the developer may seek a suspension review by the JED Council and a member of the CLT, with the member of the CLT being the final decision maker.
If no reply to the suspension notice is received in 14 days, the extension will be permanently removed from the Joomla Extensions Directory.
you also have a deadline for responding or you just get deleted permanently hopefully none of the extensions in this discussion missed it
I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards,
Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
Always in touch with my clients!
24/7 toll free support (800) 669-0729 or text (904) 385-0043
LinkedIn StumbleUpon TwitterContact me:
terry...@gmail.com terryarthur terry...@gmail.com terrancewarthur terry...@gmail.com
--
Nick Savov
Good point :) But make sure you're quoting from:
http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
and not from:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2381398
So legally they are not obligated to monitor JoomlaWorks, but if we're
going to interpret things legally then it must be noted that legally the
JED Team has broken the TOS by unpublishing Hikashop for a "rule" that is
not specified in the agreement (the TOS). Near the end of the TOS it says
"Any dispute with respect to our Site shall be governed by the laws of the
State of Maryland". I'm pretty sure that in Maryland you're not allowed
to violate an agreement (TOS) that you've made with another party by
adding conditions on top of that agreement that weren't agreed to in the
agreement. Sure the TOS says that the rules can be changed at any time,
but the rules haven't been changed. It's still the same TOS and still
without that hidden "rule".
Now to put aside all the legal stuff, the JED Team owes it to the
community to do things fairly and to quit with the biases. If the JED has
a community to serve, treat people equally. If there is policy, apply it
to everyone and don't make preferential exceptions. If they have a policy
hidden away in some document somewhere, put it in the TOS so that there is
no question about it. Not only that but publicly announce it (blog post,
posting on this Google group, and a tweet is more than enough). When will
people learn that communication is vital? I don't think anything that I've
stated is asking for too much.
BTW, I know you're not saying all the stuff I objected to in my last two
paragraphs, but just had to get it out there :)
Kind regards,
Nick
> [image: The eclectic EASEL - Joomla! Professionals]
> I agree carrots are way better than sticks and stones
> it does seems like the JED covered themselves and the unequal treatment
with
> the "but not the obligation" part
> they can leave in or put out whatever they want
> but they clearly state that they can penalize you for an amount of time
based on the frequency and seriousness of the violations - perhaps that
is
> the source of the unequal treatment the complaints are about?
> *F - Violations of the Terms of Use and/or Directory Guidelines* We
reserve the right, *but not the obligation*, to monitor the content
of
> the Joomla Extensions Directory and usage of the site. Any activity that is
> suspected to be in conflict with the rules, as determined by the CLT,
Joomla
> Extensions Directory team management or their appointees, will:
> - Be investigated by the assigned team member in conjunction with a
> Team
> Manager. During the time of investigation, up to 14 days, a listing
may
> be
> temporarily unpublished and the listing owner notified. If an email
is
> sent
> to the listing owner during this time, a response must be received
> within 5
> days, otherwise the investigation will end and the listing owner will
> have
> waived their rights to a suspension review.
> - If a violation is found, the violating account will be
> immediately *deactivated
> and any listings will be unpublished for a defined period based on
the
> frequency of violations and the level of seriousness.*
> Depending on the Suspension period, the developer may seek a suspension
review by the JED Council and a member of the CLT, with the member of
the
> CLT being the final decision maker.
> *If no reply to the suspension notice is received in 14 days, the extension
> will be permanently removed from the Joomla Extensions Directory.* you
also have a deadline for responding or you just get deleted
> permanently
> hopefully none of the extensions in this discussion missed it
> I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't
hesitate
> to
> contact me.
> Kind regards,
> Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
> Always in touch with my clients!
> 24/7 toll free support (800) 669-0729 or text (904) 385-0043
> Follow Me: <http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
> LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
> <http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
> StumbleUpon<http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
> <http://twitter.com/terryarthur> Twitter
<http://twitter.com/terryarthur>
> Contact me: [image: Google Talk] terry...@gmail.com [image:
> Skype]terryarthur [image:
> MSN] terry...@gmail.com [image: Y! messenger] terrancewarthur [image:
AIM] terry...@gmail.com
Chris Burgess
argumentation somewhat going to waste preaching to the converted (i.e.
other developers)?
I guess it also must be said, while there may be some legitimate
concerns here, the JED team probably have the right to defend
themselves and put their perspective forward, which they may not do
here (I'm relatively new, so I'm not sure). Particularly when there
are accusations of bias flying about, whether it's intentional bias or
otherwise. It's not a trivial accusation, and I'm sure we'd all like
to hear some response from the other side of this debate.
If this debate, as Terrance suggested also, has been taken elsewhere
where the JED team are more likely to hear it and respond, I'd love to
follow this issue further.
It sounds to me, at any rate, Nick, that most people around here agree
with much of what you've said, myself included.
> > Skype]terryarthur [image:
> > MSN] terryart...@gmail.com [image: Y! messenger] terrancewarthur [image:
>
> AIM] terryart...@gmail.com
Marius van Rijnsoever
non-GPL extension on that website is extremely common on the JED. 5
minute of searching revealed hundreds of violations:
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/owner/Blogomunity
(7 extenstions, sells many ioncube non-gpl extensions on the same
website with "lite" GPL equivalents in JED)
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/owner/Atomant
(141 extensions, specifically restricts GPL "freedoms" and is not GPL
http://www.joomla-payment-gateways.osdcs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=6
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/owner/joomlaworks
(14 extension, sells non-GPL extensions on the same website)
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/owner/joohopia
(7 extension, sells extension by domain name, not compatible with GPL)
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/owner/grvulture
(10 extensions, sells non-GPL extensions on websiet and offers "lite"
extension on JED)
http://www.axxis.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=66
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 8:38 AM, elin <elin....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I personally believe strongly in using carrots to reward compliance with the
> license rather than sticks of punishing non compliance such as sending legal
> letters or publicly going after violators (compare with the WP/Thesis
> mess).
Removing extensions immediately without developers comments and jed
having months in response times is as close as you can get to a stick
:)
My opinion is that the requirement to only allow developers that ONLY
develop GPL extension onto the JED is over the top. It can't be
policed, hundreds of current jed extensions do this and it is not in
the JED TOC.
My recommendation to Hikashop would be to bypass the JED moderators
(they have taken months) and escalate it to the leadership team as per
the JED guidelines.
Thanks, Marius
Nick Savov
well :)
I mostly said it on here so that other developers are aware. It was also
good for me to get off my chest to be honest.
In answer to your question, yes, some members of the JED Team follow this
group (although I don't know how closely they follow), however the best
place for discussion is on the JED Feedback forum or the jPeople group.
I'm not very familiar with the jPeople group so I hang out at the forum.
The leader of the JED Team, Matt L., has already stated on the JED Forum
that the forum is a form of direct feedback, see:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=643758&p=2582810#p2582810
Therefore, if you'd like feedback from the JED Team I'd suggest you post
it in the actual discussion on the forum where it was brought up:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=655313
As you can see, there still isn't a response, although several members of
the JED Team have been online on that JED Forum in the last few days. How
do I know? There's a nice little feature at the bottom of the forum that
states "Users browsing this forum". I'm not at all saying that they are
required to answer that minute or anything like that, but just that they
do know and have chosen for whatever reason to not respond thus far. They
could have family life, job, etc, etc, that's more important and I
completely understand that! :) My main concern is when issues go
unanswered for months and just tossed to the side.
Kind regards,
Nick
Troy
--
Bear / N6REJ
Troy
stays, then your biggest names in the joomla community will no longer be
on jed. This would either spell the end of JED or something far worse.
Troy
--
Bear / N6REJ
Troy
Troy
Bear / N6REJ
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
--
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
Troy
GPL = the right for others to take your software ( even if you sell it ) and do anything with it they wish. Even put it out on the net for free.
Which means EVERY template club out there is in violation.
Which means virtually all the commercial extensions are in violation.
here's an excerpt straight from gnu
=====================
We maintain this free software definition to show clearly what must be true about a particular software program for it to be considered free software. From time to time we revise this definition to clarify it. If you would like to review the changes we've made, please see the History section below for more information.
“Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer.”
Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it means that the program's users have the four essential freedoms:
- The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
- The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
- The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
- The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
Now please feel free to correct me. I admittedly know very little about this and its always been a bit fuzzy
Troy
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
The content of the message has not been downloaded yet.
David Barrett
The important phrase in my opinion being: “Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer.”
It is a philosophy more than anything, and one that many developers have a hard time understanding – because it does essentially mean that if someone wanted to, they could take your code and redistribute it.
But in my opinion this can be turned to a good developer’s advantage. You have to change your business model. For a useful extension, the vast majority of people would rather that they obtained it from the original developer. They are happy to pay a reasonable price for support and updates. So, the easiest business model to implement in my opinion is to charge for the support and access to the parts of the site where the component can be obtained. This is entirely within GPL scope.
There are many advantages to GPL once you have managed to get over the initial “but that means anyone can copy my software!” idea. The world moves on, GPL creates communities in a way that proprietary software never can. I have had suggestions in my forums and bugfixes by users in a couple of cases. If my component(s) were encrypted/protected etc. a lot more work would have been involved for both the user and myself in these cases.
Must be said, my bugbear is the exclusion of JavaScript from GPL. I have had this argument before with the FSF, but there is no point going over it. I believe that if you truly embrace GPL (rather than just use it to get listed on JED, for example), then you will not encrypt any part of your component. And yes, it is possible to make a living this way.
Regards,
Dave Barrett MCSA
Office: 01962 658999
Mobile: 07799 411974
http://www.cedit.biz
http://www.outlookrulesmanager.com - sorting your inbox so you don't have to
http://www.registrationvalidator.com - protect your Joomla! site from bots and spammers
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/emeamsgdev - Microsoft Messaging Developer Blog
--
Andrew Eddie
Regards
Andre Eddie
Rob Stocker
We wish to discuss this amongst ourselves, not with the JED group (although that is a goal too) or Jpeople.
Rob Stocker
Troy
I completely agree that software that is "encoded" should not be considered GPL.. its obviously NOT open source. So I can't "modify it".
I always thought that as long as the code was readable , modifiable, that the 'source was open" and I could substantially change it and then it could become "my" product that that was "open source" and "gpl".
Troy
Bear / N6REJ
Troy
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To post to this group, send an email to
> joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
literally right @ the core of J! and reminds me very very much of the
time when SMF bridge was forced off JED.
From my very naive perspective as I currently understand it. EVERY
commercial extension is in violation of the GPL. Especially company's
like Yoo and RocketTheme who charge for templates and while you are free
to change them, you are not free to resell nor especially give away
their products. Again feel free to correct me.
I do agree with Andrew in that we need JED and more importantly OSM
involved in this as well. Ultimately I guess its up to OSM to make the
decision about how Joomla is going to handle this as JED is not its own
entity afaik.
Rouven Weßling
On 16.09.2011, at 14:43, Troy wrote:
> From my very naive perspective as I currently understand it. EVERY commercial extension is in violation of the GPL. Especially company's like Yoo and RocketTheme who charge for templates and while you are free to change them, you are not free to resell nor especially give away their products. Again feel free to correct me.
Only the PHP part of a extension or template have to be licensed as GPL under the JED rules. Since you can license images, css and javascript however you want thus effectively limiting distribution of the extension/template.
> I do agree with Andrew in that we need JED and more importantly OSM involved in this as well. Ultimately I guess its up to OSM to make the decision about how Joomla is going to handle this as JED is not its own entity afaik.
The JED operates under the Community Leadership Team so I assume in the end it is their call.
Rouven
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
--
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
David Barrett
I think you took insult there where none was intended in the slightest. Troy is openly stating he doesn’t understand much of the detail of GPL. There is nothing more sinister in the comments at all.
And GPL means that there is no such thing as an illegal copy on a Warez site… or in fact, an illegal copy. I am a developer and a user. As such, I know that as a user I want to have full access to the software I use if possible (including source, as this interests me as a developer). This means that as a developer I must allow this, and hope others do too. I don’t believe that there needs to be a cost for GPL, just a change of attitude and/or business models. People prefer openness, and this is what GPL is. Given the choice between two pieces of software that do the same thing but under different licences, I would choose GPL and pay the developer under whatever business model he has chosen. I believe most people would do the same.
Regards,
Dave Barrett MCSA
Office: 01962 658999
Mobile: 07799 411974
http://www.cedit.biz
http://www.outlookrulesmanager.com - sorting your inbox so you don't have to
http://www.registrationvalidator.com - protect your Joomla! site from bots and spammers
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/emeamsgdev - Microsoft Messaging Developer Blog
From: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com [mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Sent: 16 September 2011 13:55
To: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [jgen] Re: JED Listings Caution
Troy,
Marius van Rijnsoever
> People, this is an interesting discussion but I need to remind you this is a development list. The forum and jpeople sites have
> avenues for feedback on Jed policy, etc. Thanks for your understanding.
This is a developers list and I believe it is totally appropriate to
have a discusion here on the JED policy that "developers extension can
only be listed in the JED if they do not have non-GPL extension on
their site". After all this is something that affects many developers
including many of the big joomla extension companies (this JED rule
seems only applied to small start-up developers).
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Attachments:- smime.p7s
Troy
you entirely misread and misunderstood my statement!
I dont' know wtf crawled up your butt and died but chill the hell out!!!
you wanna try taking me on for slander do it! But bring a big sack your going to need it.
NOW.. that i've ranted like u have on a PUBLIC list as you so vehemently reminded me..............
my statement WAS...
From my very naive perspective as I currently understand it. EVERY commercial extension is in violation of the GPL. Especially company's like Yoo and RocketTheme who charge for templates and while you are free to change them, you are not free to resell nor especially give away their products. Again feel free to correct me. "
I've been using joomla just as long if not longer then you have so don't go all high and mighty on me just cause you got a kick arse piece of software. That crap don't fly.
While you were ranting about something you CLEARLY did not understand I was having a chat in skype with a fellow Joomla person to help clarify my thoughts and understandings.
HERE is what i feel and if you don't like it then you can kiss my shorts!
ANYONE should be able to have a free or commercial extension on JED as long as its OPEN SOURCE.. meaning I can read it, and change it and if my changes are substantial enough market it as my own.
thats it.. just that simple. If that GPL, NON-GPL ABC, 123 fine... idc.. If they also happen to sell some program, say kayako just to list one on their site also they should have that right to. its their site not mine.
all the stuff I've ever made for joomla I've always "given" away... do w/e u want with it, its here you can use it or not, change it or not. I am for the first time, considering making a commercial product but it will still be "open source". You wanna change it go for it.
Troy
Bear / N6REJ
Troy
I agree with you 100%
Troy
Bear / N6REJ
Troy
offense to be accused of slander for stating basically "i don't get it,
this makes no sense" . ESPECIALLY by someone who's software I use and
think is tops!
Troy
Jonathan Neubauer
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]
--
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
Troy
> Your post did make a claim, expressly stated to be factual
and welcomed, infact encouraged, to be corrected.
elin
Gary Glass
Agreed.
And in addition I would say that it is a serious concern that the JED team is not responsive in a reasonably timely manner. If the JED service is not well-maintained it could be a real impediment to Joomla’s success.
______________________________
Gary Glass
From: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com [mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Neubauer
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 10:04 AM
To: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [jgen] Re: JED Listings Caution
First, get rid of the personal attacks - no one is here to fight, this has been a fairly reasonable discussion - a very important discussion.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/jmJjW_FWVlgJ.
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
--
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
Alfred Vink
What are we…12 ?
Guys, grow up, respect eachother and get back to the issue at hand.
Alfred
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
--
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
Troy
> In that case, I apologise. I understood your post as an assertion, not
> a question.
nick. We've talked privately before. I've been talking to others (
still am ) trying to get this through my thick head :P
like others have said, lets get back on track.
Marius van Rijnsoever
> No the rule is every Joomla extension complies with the license not that
> every product that they sell does. I see where you are getting confused.
> Note the word extensions.
Would you be able to relay this to the JED team? This whole confusion
started when the developer of hikashop listing was removed and JED
specified the following condition:
[quote from JED member]
"It is the JED's policy not to link to sites that include non-GPL
Joomla extensions. You must remove the non-GPL versions from the
linked site and no mention of them can be on your site."
[/quote]
If this is a simple misunderstanding of the JED rules, then a quick
email to the JED team will get hikashop relisted and we can close this
discussion.
Thanks, Marius
Marius van Rijnsoever
Or if this is the correct JED policy as stated by the JED member, this
should be clearly stated in the JED TOS and many other hundreds of
current JED extensions that also violate this policy removed.
All that is asked is that the rules are clarified and that there is an
equal playing field.
Thanks, Marius
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
--
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
elin
"It is the JED's policy not to link to sites that include non-GPL
Joomla extensions. You must remove the non-GPL versions from the
linked site and no mention of them can be on your site."
[/quote]
Nick Savov
I'm sorry, but did you ever answer these?
If it's a JED policy then why does JoomlaWorks not have to follow it?
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2614470#p2614470
If it's a JED policy then why does the leader of the JED team (who should
know the policy) make an exception for JoomlaWorks but not AcyMailing or
Hikashop?
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2614489#p2614489
If it's a JED policy then why is this not in the Terms of Service?
http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
If it's a JED policy, when and where was it publicly stated as a JED policy?
If it's a JED policy, why won't the JED Team talk about it?
As extension developers we agree to the TOS upon submitting extensions. If
it's a policy put it on the TOS. It's unfair, and just plain wrong, of
the JED Team to go 3 months without responding to someone when that person
has made every effort to be compliant (as is even now changing the pro
version to GPL, which will be available in October) and then to turn
around and give someone else preferential treatment!
Kind regards,
Nick
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
- Since it's not illegal to create non-GPL Joomla! extensions, nobody can state that as a reason for a developer not to have non-GPL extensions on his site. If something is outside the provisions of Joomla!'s GPL license, it is outside of OSM's legal reach and it all comes down to a business choice (one that I wouldn't make for moral reasons, not legal ones)
- If having non-GPL Joomla! extensions on your site is forbidden, where can I see that rule written? By listing our extensions in JED we agree to abide by the Terms of Service. As a result, a startup would be based on the contents of the TOS to make an informed decision on the way it is going to proceed. By not making this clause a part of the TOS, JED is doing a disservice to the community. Developers are banned because of an unwritten rule they did not agree upon when they signed up to the JED. This makes the JED team look like a bunch of amateurs. I know they are real pros, despite being volunteers, but consider how someone from the outside sees it.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/SsMvy6y1qkEJ.
Terrance Arthur
sorry to the list for my poor research I was quoting from the wrong source previously but this is right from http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
"Any listing can be removed at any time at the discretion of the Joomla! Extensions Directory team without notice."
"Extension listings that infringe upon one or more of the criteria listed above will not be considered for inclusion in the Joomla! Extension Directory. In such cases the Joomla! Extensions Directory team may choose but is not obligated to inform the developer as to the reason for rejection."
This means they can do whatever they want and are not obligated to even explain it to us so get a lawyer or get involved with the JED team the only choices I see for change complaining won't help and it is really getting annoying
without some action this whole discussion is just mental masturbation which does make me feel better but it puts hair on my forehead
I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards,
Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
Always in touch with my clients!
24/7 toll free support (800) 669-0729 or text (904) 385-0043
LinkedIn StumbleUpon TwitterContact me:
terry...@gmail.com terryarthur terry...@gmail.com terrancewarthur terry...@gmail.com
Nick Savov
the discretion of the JED Team doesn't mean they can unpublish a listing
because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed; the *context* is if
rules are broken it's at the discretion of the JED Team (that's why that
part is in "Additional informations to entries").
Breaking mutual agreements (read TOS) by having hidden rules in some
document somewhere (who knows where?) puts OSM (and Joomla)at risk in
Maryland.
Kind regards,
Nick
> [image: The eclectic EASEL - Joomla! Professionals]
>
>
> sorry to the list for my poor research I was quoting from the wrong source
> previously but this is right from http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
>
>
> "Any listing can be removed at any time *at the discretion of the Joomla!
> Extensions Directory team *without notice."
>
>
> "Extension listings that infringe upon one or more of the criteria listed
> above will not be considered for inclusion in the Joomla! Extension
> Directory. In such cases *the Joomla! Extensions Directory team may choose
> but is not obligated to inform the developer as to the reason for
> rejection*
> ."
>
>
> This means they can do whatever they want and are not obligated to even
> explain it to us so get a lawyer or get involved with the JED team the
> only
> choices I see for change complaining won't help and it is really getting
> annoying
>
>
> without some action this whole discussion is just mental masturbation
> which
> does make me feel better but it puts hair on my forehead
>
>
> I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't hesitate
> to
> contact me.
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
> Always in touch with my clients!
> 24/7 toll free support (800) 669-0729 or text (904) 385-0043
> Follow Me: <http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
> LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
> <http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
> StumbleUpon<http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
> <http://twitter.com/terryarthur> Twitter <http://twitter.com/terryarthur>
> Contact me: [image: Google Talk] terry...@gmail.com [image:
> Skype]terryarthur [image:
> MSN] terry...@gmail.com [image: Y! messenger] terrancewarthur [image:
> AIM] terry...@gmail.com
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos <
> niko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Elin,
>>
>> It is perfectly possible for someone to create a non-GPL Joomla!
>> extension
>> and still remain perfectly legal. All he has to do is not use any of the
>> Joomla! Framework code. This is not even half as hard as it sounds. In
>> this
>> case, Joomla! is including the extensions source files, not the other
>> way
>> around, therefore the extension developer is not legally obliged to use
>> the
>> GPL license for his/her code. During the days of the "GPL wars" there
>> was a
>> decision made, that non-GPL software (while not always illegal) does not
>> fit
>> our community's mentality. That's fine. But this brings up two points:
>>
>> 1. Since it's not illegal to create non-GPL Joomla! extensions,
>> nobody
>> can state that as a reason for a developer not to have non-GPL
>> extensions on
>> his site. If something is outside the provisions of Joomla!'s GPL
>> license,
>> it is outside of OSM's legal reach and it all comes down to a
>> business
>> choice (one that I wouldn't make for *moral* reasons, not legal ones)
>> 2. If having non-GPL Joomla! extensions on your site is forbidden,
>> where can I see that rule written? By listing our extensions in JED
>> we agree
>> to abide by the Terms of Service. As a result, a startup would be
>> based on
>> the contents of the TOS to make an informed decision on the way it is
>> going
>> to proceed. By not making this clause a part of the TOS, JED is doing
>> a
>> disservice to the community. Developers are banned because of an
>> unwritten
>> rule they did not agree upon when they signed up to the JED. This
>> makes the
>> JED team look like a bunch of amateurs. I *know* they are real pros,
>> despite being volunteers, but consider how someone from the outside
>> sees it.
>>
>> So, how can the JED violate its own TOS? It's absurd. This rule has
>> either
>> to go in the TOS or not be applied to anyone at all. Having a "hidden
>> rule"
>> which is selectively applied makes zero business sense. And as we all
>> admit,
>> the JED is all about business, both for developers (exposure drives
>> sales)
>> and for the project (ad clicks bring in a lot of revenue).
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> *Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos*
elin
Troy
Troy,oh cool.. ty
Read that forum post again. It reads "the copyright to the materials and reviews in the Directory". Basically, it says that OSM can use your component description and all of the reviews you have received as they see fit. It also means that you can not copy the reviews off the JED without asking OSM permission. This was done to deter developers using JED reviews as selling points by copying them verbatim in their own sites. The copyright of the extensions listed is of course not affected.
Bear / N6REJ
Nick Savov
I say this with due respect to you and simply inform you of what's going on.
They don't welcome suggestions. They ignore them (check the dates):
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644962
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965
And they are not quick in correcting things. They don't even respond.
They just ignore you. It's been 3 months now for the Hikashop issue.
Furthermore, I've offered to help in whatever way I can several times
now...guess what...no reply. It's not because I've been speaking out like
this then, because I wasn't speaking out then. It's just unresponsiveness
on their part. Why? Perhaps they are too busy which is fine. Why not
allow others to help? Ask them that.
And they are the ones Baiting and Switching, not developers, because it's
not in the TOS!
Again, with all respect! :)
Kind regards,
Nick
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/Dc8Vt_aHDgAJ.
Nick Savov
I say this with due respect to you and simply inform you of what's going on.
They don't welcome suggestions. They ignore them (check the dates):
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644962
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965
And they are not quick in correcting things. They don't even respond.
They just ignore you. It's been 3 months now for the Hikashop issue.
Furthermore, I've offered to help in whatever way I can several times
now...guess what...no reply. It's not because I've been speaking out like
this then, because I wasn't speaking out then. It's just unresponsiveness
on their part. Why? Perhaps they are too busy which is fine. Why not
allow others to help? Ask them that.
And they are the ones Baiting and Switching, not developers, because it's
not in the TOS!
Again, with all respect! :)
Kind regards,
Nick
> Correct Terry. The terms of service give broad latitude.
Terrance Arthur
I understand your frustration and it seems to be clouding your reason.
You are presupposing that one somehow has a right to be included in the JED and even in Maryland this isn't the case. The JED owns that right and licenses it to the developer through the TOS. If you had exchanged some consideration for the service then you might have a leg to stand on but free doesn't get you too much in the way of rights no matter where you are.
Since they reserve the right to change the rules at any time without prior notice they can just make things up as they go along and then by making the new rules retroactive easily reverse your judge's opinion
I'm not taking their side but let's be realistic these are legal terms made up by lawyers and the things they do and say are almost never in any way fair or just they just follow the law or their take on it
I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards,
Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
Always in touch with my clients!
24/7 toll free support (800) 669-0729 or text (904) 385-0043
Nick Savov
One thing that I am very good at is being reasonable (even in frustration)
:) I don't think my reason has been clouded.
1) I never said anyone has the right to be included in the JED.
2) They can change the rules (read as TOS) whenever they want and as much
as they want, but they can't break agreements (TOS) (by adding some hidden
rules)! The fact is the rules (read TOS) *haven't* been changed. It's the
same same TOS! It's fine if they change the TOS and add that rule, but
that hasn't happened yet.
I don't think it's asking for too much to add the hidden "rule" to the TOS
so that things are clear for anyone.
Kind regards,
Nick
> Follow Me: <http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
> LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
> <http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
> StumbleUpon<http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
> <http://twitter.com/terryarthur> Twitter <http://twitter.com/terryarthur>
> Contact me: [image: Google Talk] terry...@gmail.com [image:
> Skype]terryarthur [image:
> MSN] terry...@gmail.com [image: Y! messenger] terrancewarthur [image:
> AIM] terry...@gmail.com
>
>
Terrance Arthur
Hi Nick,
Of course you are correct I am not arguing the validity of your point just the futility of arguing it here.
I was right in the middle of integrating HikaShop into a client's site when it got delisted so I understand first hand what you are complaining about but doing it here isn't helping which was my point not that you are not a great and reasonable guy. Reason is not the same thing as being reasonable. Expending this much energy and time on this in this forum is IMHO a waste of your considerable talents. Isn't it possible to escalate your cogent and well put case to the next layer of OSM management for resolution?
If you though it would help, I'd be happy to write up my own case and the very undesirable reaction my client had when I told them about the problem. They blamed me for using a "bad" extension in the first place even though I spent time on due diligence prior to going with HikaShop.
I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards,
Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
Always in touch with my clients!
24/7 toll free support (800) 669-0729 or text (904) 385-0043
JM Simonet
Hi Nick,
Of course you are correct I am not arguing the validity of your point just the futility of arguing it here.
I was right in the middle of integrating HikaShop into a client's site when it got delisted so I understand first hand what you are complaining about but doing it here isn't helping which was my point not that you are not a great and reasonable guy. Reason is not the same thing as being reasonable. Expending this much energy and time on this in this forum is IMHO a waste of your considerable talents. Isn't it possible to escalate your cogent and well put case to the next layer of OSM management for resolution?
If you though it would help, I'd be happy to write up my own case and the very undesirable reaction my client had when I told them about the problem. They blamed me for using a "bad" extension in the first place even though I spent time on due diligence prior to going with HikaShop.
I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards,
Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
Please keep the Subject wording in your answers
intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
Nick Savov
here but it is good here). As stated previously by others, it's a group
for Joomla developers about developing Joomla extensions. Part of that
process is listing those extensions on the JED. This affects all of us
whether directly or indirectly!
As we've seen from this discussion, there is some uncertainity about the
process and having a discussion like this clarifies things :) This is
certainly not a place for discussion with the JED Team (forum or JPeople
for that), but is it a place for educating ourselves.
As a whole, I would say this topic has been very productive. There was
that one exchange of heated words, but both parties in that effectively
apologized to each other (one more clearly than the other, but hey, it's
all good in the end :)
Hopefully the result from this discussion will be knowledge that will
hopefully transition into the JED forum that will hopefully result in:
1) The TOS being updated and used as the rule book as it should be.
2) JED Team response times will hopefully improve
3) JED Team response times will hopefully improve by allowing those who
want to help (and are apt to help) to help.
4) The TOS will hopefully be applied the same to everyone and not make
exceptions for some developers and not others.
The JED Team is the policing force of the JED and developers who list on
the JED, however as a community we have the responsibility to police the
JED Team (hate to have to say it that way, but it's true)
Kind regards,
Nick
Nick Savov
Sorry I disagree and others have as well. The description of the group
states: "This is the main discussion list for software developers working
on the Joomla! platform. If you have questions about how to build
something or want to others about general ideas about Joomla! development,
then please join us."
I think this discussion would fall under the general ideas about Joomla!
development. Part of Joomla development is publishing to the JED.
If the group strictly code-based that should be included in the
description and I'll shut my mouth and go elsewhere.
Kind regards,
Nick
>>> 24/7 toll free support <tel:%28800%29%20669-0729>(800) 669-0729 or
>>>text <tel:%28904%29%20385-0043>(904) 385-0043
>>
>> > Follow Me:
>> <<http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
>>>
>>>LinkedIn<<http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
>>>
>>><<http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
>>>
>>>StumbleUpon<<http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
>>> <<http://twitter.com/terryarthur>http://twitter.com/terryarthur>
>>>Twitter
>>><<http://twitter.com/terryarthur>http://twitter.com/terryarthur>
>>
>> > Contact me: [image: Google Talk]
>><mailto:terry...@gmail.com>terry...@gmail.com [image:
>>> Skype]terryarthur [image:
>>> MSN] <mailto:terry...@gmail.com>terry...@gmail.com [image:
>>>Y! messenger] terrancewarthur [image:
>>> AIM] <mailto:terry...@gmail.com>terry...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Nick Savov
>>> <<mailto:ni...@iowawebcompany.com>ni...@iowawebcompany.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Elin,
>>>>
>>>> I say this with due respect to you and simply inform you of what's
>>>> going
>>>> on.
>>>>
>>>> They don't welcome suggestions. They ignore them (check the dates):
>>>>
>>>><http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644962>http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644962
>>>>
>>>><http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965>http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965
>>>><https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/Dc8Vt_aHDgAJ>https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/Dc8Vt_aHDgAJ.
>>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> >
>>>><mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com>joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> >
>>>><mailto:joomla-dev-general%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> > For more options, visit this group at
>>>> >
>>>><http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB>http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups
>>>> "Joomla! General Development" group.
>>>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>>
>>>><mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com>joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>
>>>><mailto:joomla-dev-general%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>
>>>><http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB>http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>> "Joomla! General Development" group.
>>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>
>>><mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com>joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>
>>><mailto:joomla-dev-general%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>
>>><http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB>http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>>To post to this group, send an email to
>><mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com>joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>><mailto:joomla-dev-general%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
>>For more options, visit this group at
>><http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB>http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>>
>>
>>--
>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>>To post to this group, send an email to
>> joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
>>For more options, visit this group at
>>http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>
>
> --
>>Please keep the Subject wording in your answers
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not
> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are
> not the
> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768
> Joomla Production Working group
> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
>
Nick Savov
Furthermore, there have been other discussions on this group about the
TOS, see:
http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general/browse_thread/thread/b0a4b0059cc265e1/5f4656bb9d4c3ac7?lnk=gst&q=TOS#5f4656bb9d4c3ac7
I didn't read every reply but it doesn't like anyone in those discussions
were shoo'ed off to discuss elsewhere. Our present discussion has remained
civilized, so IMO and based on other examples whoever wants to discuss,
discuss :)
Kind regards,
Nick
Nick Savov
"doesn't like anyone in those discussions" should be "doesn't look like
Nick Savov
JM, if you're the moderator of this group and that was a command for me to
shut up and go elsewhere, I'll obey and go elsewhere. Sorry I'm not sure
if your statement was just an opinion as a member of this group or if it
was meant to be as something more than that. I'm not trying to break any
rules, sorry if it appears that way. A clarification would be nice :)
Kind regards,
Nick
Rich Friedel
Where else should this discussion take place?
Furthermore, who exactly is in charge? I have been watching this for some time now and the obvious issue is that there is absolutely no clear order of heirarchy and a complete lack of organization.
Frankly, this whole issue makes JED and Joomla! look completely unprofessional and amaturish.
It is sad to see this after going through unrest and bullshit during the move from Mambo to Joomla!
whatever...
> Folks, even if some say that Papy is grumpy again, I will
> nevertheless ask you to stop this discussion.
> This list is targetted at joomla code-related issues and is properly
> named JOOMLA_DEV_GENERAL
> It is maintain by the Production Leadship Group, not JED, or OSM.
> Thanks for your understanding
>
> JM
>
>>
>>
>>Of course you are correct I am not arguing the validity of your
>>point just the futility of arguing it here.
>>
>>
>>I was right in the middle of integrating HikaShop into a client's
>>site when it got delisted so I understand first hand what you are
>>complaining about but doing it here isn't helping which was my point
>>not that you are not a great and reasonable guy. Reason is not the
>>same thing as being reasonable. Expending this much energy and time
>>on this in this forum is IMHO a waste of your considerable talents.
>>Isn't it possible to escalate your cogent and well put case to the
>>next layer of OSM management for resolution?
>>
>>
>>If you though it would help, I'd be happy to write up my own case
>>and the very undesirable reaction my client had when I told them
>>about the problem. They blamed me for using a "bad" extension in the
>>first place even though I spent time on due diligence prior to going
>>with HikaShop.
>>
>>
>>
>>I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't
>>hesitate to contact me.
>>
>>
>>Kind regards,
>>
>>Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Follow Me:
>> <<http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
>>>
>>>LinkedIn<<http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>http://www.linkedin.com/in/eclecticeasel>
>>>
>>><<http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
>>>
>>>StumbleUpon<<http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/terryarthur/>
>>> <<http://twitter.com/terryarthur>http://twitter.com/terryarthur>
>>><<http://twitter.com/terryarthur>http://twitter.com/terryarthur>
>>
>> > Contact me: [image: Google Talk]
>>> Skype]terryarthur [image:
>>> MSN] <mailto:terry...@gmail.com>terry...@gmail.com [image:
>>>Y! messenger] terrancewarthur [image:
>>> AIM] <mailto:terry...@gmail.com>terry...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Nick Savov
>>>
>>>> Hi Elin,
>>>>
>>>> I say this with due respect to you and simply inform you of what's going
>>>> on.
>>>>
>>>> They don't welcome suggestions. They ignore them (check the dates):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965>http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965
>>>> > To post to this group, send an email to
>>>> >
>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> >
>>>> > For more options, visit this group at
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups
>>>> "Joomla! General Development" group.
>>>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Joomla! General Development" group.
>>> To post to this group, send an email to
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>>To post to this group, send an email to
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>For more options, visit this group at
>>
>>
>>--
>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
>>To post to this group, send an email to joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
>>For more options, visit this group at
>>http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
>
>
> --
> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not
> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are
> not the
> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jean-Marie Simonet / infograf768
> Joomla Production Working group
> Joomla! Translation Coordination Team
>
Keith Mountifield
My penny's worth as a relative newbie to this group...
As far as I can see main issue here is without doubt, the apparent tardiness
of the JED team in the handling of some cases of TOS breaches. I have to
agree that it is important that such a vital portal is not only impartial,
but is SEEN TO BE impartial. The only way for them to achieve this is to
respond in a timely manner to queries and put an effective communication
channel in place for those developers who have fallen foul of the TOS or
other rules.
Perhaps some kind of charter for the JED or at least a commitment to respond
within a certain time frame. It's certainly not acceptable for developers to
be ignored. While the JED team are not responsible for peoples businesses
they should at least respect that the majority of developers are doing it as
a business and do, to some extent rely on their JED listing as a revenue
stream. I would be surprised if any were unwilling to fix issues that the
JED team discovered or had had reported.
For me the discussion about licencing is both informative and pertinent.
I've a number of extensions that I've created for projects that I'm looking
to monetise in some way, so learning more about the licencing issues is
definitely relevant to a developers' list. It's a subject as important as
the great help I've had from the other members of this group with coding
issues.
Cheers
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:joomla-de...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Troy
Sent: 16 September 2011 13:43
To: joomla-de...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [jgen] Re: JED Listings Caution
On 9/16/2011 7:30 AM, Rob Stocker wrote:
> No disrespect Andrew but "this is a development list" and we are all
> developers and this is about development and developers. And the other
> avenues have proved completely fruitless for the likes of Nick and
> Hikashop.
>
> We wish to discuss this amongst ourselves, not with the JED group
> (although that is a goal too) or Jpeople.
>
> Rob Stocker
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To post to this group, send an email to
> joomla-de...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> joomla-dev-gene...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general?hl=en-GB.
I disagree. we need EVERYONE involved in this. This is a HUGE issue,
literally right @ the core of J! and reminds me very very much of the time
when SMF bridge was forced off JED.
From my very naive perspective as I currently understand it. EVERY
commercial extension is in violation of the GPL. Especially company's like
Yoo and RocketTheme who charge for templates and while you are free to
change them, you are not free to resell nor especially give away their
products. Again feel free to correct me.
I do agree with Andrew in that we need JED and more importantly OSM involved
in this as well. Ultimately I guess its up to OSM to make the decision
about how Joomla is going to handle this as JED is not its own entity afaik.
Troy
--
Bear / N6REJ
--
Jennifer Marriott
Developers are free to build upon, build out from, learn from and even make huge amounts of money from expanding, improving and extending Joomla. Developers are able to use the Joomla trademarks as long as they follow the terms of use as set out by the Joomla project and OSM. The only thing developers have to do at the same time is adhere to the license that afforded them that freedom to build upon, build out from, learn from and even make huge amounts of money from expanding, improving and extending Joomla, and respect the trademarks.
Hopefully this post helps to clear up a lot of the misconceptions and misinformation that have been presented in this thread.
Terrance Arthur
I had hoped this thread was dead but thanks for clearing things up for us Jennifer
it would have been helpful to point out the misconceptions and misinformation you were referring to instead of essentially rehashing what has already been said here and calling it clearing things up
I look forward to assisting you in any way I can so please don't hesitate to contact me.
Kind regards,
Terry Arthur, Freelance designer & programmer
Always in touch with my clients!
24/7 toll free support (800) 669-0729 or text (904) 385-0043
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/Iwhqv1X4Id4J.
Marius van Rijnsoever
<marpomu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The JED policy has not changed.
> Also the JED policy of working on TOS issues has not changed. The JED
> relies on people to report extensions that are not compliant with the TOS.
> The JED relies on people to report GPL violations. The JED team then
> assess each and everyone as they can. There are THOUSANDS of extensions.
> New ones are being added every day. Developers are updating and changing
> their listings all the time.
> Give the JED team a break. Everyone should make sure they have their facts
> correct and instead of vilifying the volunteers that work so hard for the
> project with LITTLE if NONE thankfulness. It isn't that hard to show a
> little gratitude and graciousness to each other instead of vitriol and
> venom.
Jennifer, no one is questioning the hard work of JED volenteers. This
is about an unwritten JED policy, that nobody understands (just look
at this discussion), it not documentent on the JED TOS and that is
applied at random. Nick's simpel question have still gone unanwered if
you want to help clear things up:
If it's a JED policy then why does JoomlaWorks not have to follow it?
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2614470#p2614470
If it's a JED policy then why does the leader of the JED team (who should
know the policy) make an exception for JoomlaWorks but not AcyMailing or
Hikashop?
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2614489#p2614489
If it's a JED policy then why is this not in the Terms of Service?
http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
If it's a JED policy, when and where was it publicly stated as a JED policy?
If it's a JED policy, why won't the JED Team talk about it?
Thanks, Marius
Nick Savov
First I'm very thankful for thoughtful reply! :)
Could you please clarify some things for me? By policy do you mean TOS? By
rules do you mean those outlined in the TOS? ACYMailing was unpublished
for a rule that doesn't appear in the TOS. Joomlaworks was not:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2616686#p2616686
The biggest problem here is lack of communication in the TOS and from the
JED Team. All of this could have been avoided a year ago, 3 months ago, 2
months ago, and even 1 month ago. As developers we agree to the JED TOS
when we enter a listing. The TOS is the JED Team's mutual agreement with
us as well. We don't agree to rules we don't know about, aren't notified
about (until after we break them), and which aren't properly documented.
If we're penalized for rules it should be rules that are from the JED TOS.
And if we're penalized we should be penalized fairly and not one person
penalized but another person not penalized.
As to giving praise, I totally agree! I've praised the JED before and I'll
praise them again when and where praise is due:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=637679&p=2561750#p2561750
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=622533&p=2507762#p2507762
but please don't turn this into a "you're not being grateful" thing. As
you said, stick to the facts.
Also, I think giving the JED team 3 months is more than enough of a break.
1 month is also more than enough of a break. Time to do something about
it now so that we're not having these conversations in 6 months or even a
year. Also, I've helped answer questions on the JED forum for some time
now so that should give them a break a well. If they really want a break
they should let others help out and apply others to join the team and help
out.
Kind regards,
Nick
elin
Nick Savov
Sure, I'll keep things in the JED Feedback forum from now on :)
(unless of course people keep bringing up inaccuracies in this discussion
and imply that others or I have done something wrong when we haven't).
As a last note to your suggestion, it should be pointed out that we cannot
report JoomlaWork's extension because in the report button area it states:
[quote]You are reporting a listing, which means that you believe it is
against the JED Terms of Service. Only reports that meet these guidelines
will be reviewed.[/quote]
And:
[quote]Yes, I understand the rules for reporting a listing, and also
understand that if my report does not meet the JED Terms of Service it
will not be reviewed.[/quote]
Since the hidden rule is not in the TOS, I can't report it. BTW, the
first quote (above) also means ACLMailing's report shouldn't have been
reviewed by the JED in the first place, since the rule is not in the TOS.
It's a lose/lose/lose situation.
Lastly, it's been reported and nothing has been done about it:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=655313
Remember that posting in the forum is a form of direct communication :)
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=643758&p=2582810#p2582810
I love you all! :)
Cheers,
Nick
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/_gGy5dsRViwJ.
Nick Savov
Marius van Rijnsoever
I do not have any problems with Joomlaworks, they are an awesome
company and I will not report them or any other "violators of
unwritten JED policy". It was only highlighted in this discussion as a
JED team member made a call not to apply these unwritten JED laws to
them but does apply them to others.
Again this is not about legal action, putting down the hard work of
the JED or starting a witch hunt on JED listings (like I previously
mentioned hundreds of JED entries violate these unwritten JED rules).
Proper procedure was followed by Nick and others, but this was being
ignored and not addressed for many months. This affects all of us
developers (and that why it is on this joomla developers list). One
clear set of rules and an equal playing field by these being applied
to all developers.
Fixing this is not that hard either:
1: amend the JED TOS to include this new rule and prepare for a wave
of "abuse reports" and see the JED workload triple.
2: do not remove listings for "violations" that are not in the TOS
(my preference as this rule is not enforcable)
This all started when a hardworking joomla developer listings were
removed, for a rule that is not in the TOC and without proper appeal
methods or reasonable response times. Thats just unfair, you can't
take away livelihoods without being transparent and being timely in
responding.
Thanks for your help, Marius
Jennifer Marriott
If you see something that is not right in a JED listing. You have every opportunity to report it.
There is no application of the rules for this extension and not that extension. There is a when there is an individual problem that someone sees and reports it, then someone analyzes the report and then acts on it situation. And we aren't talking about 10, 20, 50 or 100 things to analyze, we talking THOUSANDS. All of it depends on community interaction.
Every TOS I have ever seen always has a clause that makes it YOUR responsibility as the person agreeing to it, to comply with the TOS and any changes that may come in the future. I agree that some really big systems send a notification of a TOS change. J isn't there yet. It may be what you don't want to hear, but it is the truth. The system isn't there to automatically notify every single person registered on the JED that the TOS may have changed. The JED does an excellent job of using every single notification channel available to communicate changes, or ask the community for input. If you think a better system should be used to notify of changes, more power to you to build it. I would love to see it. :)
The "you're not being grateful" is not a direct quote. So let me directly quote myself so it is in context:
Bottom line, the JED asks for input. Everyone has the ability to report a listing they think is incorrect in whatever way. Developers have the ability to take part in the discussions and input and inform themselves of the TOS at their leisure.
Cautioning the entire community with an inflammatory posting title about listings in the JED doesn't do a service to anyone - not developers, not the community members, not the volunteers for the project - no one.
Nick Savov
*Sign* You're very good intentioned at least, but very misinformed :)
You really have to read the discussion and get your facts straight before
posting (you asked us to do so). In reply to your comments:
I can't report it:
http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general/msg/41a17d0881d9d426
As stated n-times already, it's not in the TOS!!!!!!!!! I'll stated it
again for clarification, it's not in the the TOS!!!!!! I agree to the TOS.
The JED Team can change the TOS. But the TOS haven't been changed! And
it's still not in the TOS and developers are still being penalized for it
(months). If it is in the TOS, please show me ;)
I'm sorry but the JED Team does not do an excellent job of using every
single notification channel available to communicate changes otherwise we
wouldn't be talking about this for so long without anyone giving me an
accurate answer. The official forum even goes unanswered...guess what
about? About which notifications channels they use (wonderful, huh?):
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965
Yes, I didn't directly quote you on that. I paraphrased you and quotes can
be used for paraphrasing someone. Sorry if I made it sound like I was
directly quoting you and twisting your words. My apology!
I think sometimes the truth can sound like vitriol and venom, but better
is open rebuke than concealed love (http://bible.cc/proverbs/27-5.htm). I
haven't been cruel to anyone and I don't think I will be cruel in the
future. I'm pretty nice although I would say that it's a lot easier to
realize that in person than in my writing online :) I might be passionate
about this but when others are affected for months and I myself have been
ignored for months at a time, it's hard to not be passionate. This
affects all of us.
As to your last comment, it has certainly done some people a service if
you read this discussion (they said so themselves) so I guess I'll have to
disagree with your last comment as well. BTW, are you doing me a service
by saying these things to me? If so, then how haven't I done a service to
the JED Team or everyone else?
If other people see this discussion and it reflects badly on Joomla, well,
maybe we should wake up and make some corrections so that these things
don't keep happening...
I hope I'm doing you a favor by correcting you, just like you did me a
favor by trying to correct me :)
Kind regards,
Nick
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/laLQbOyBK6QJ.
Nick Savov
Where in the TOS does it say that a developer CANNOT have any NON-GPL
Joomla Extension on their OWN personal site?
http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
According to the TOS, if you want to list an extension on the JED that
extension must be GPL. But where in the TOS does it say that if you have
a non-GPL extension on your OWN personal site, then ALL your JED GPL
extensions get unpublished?
If it doesn't state it in the TOS, why are extensions being banned?
Kind regards,
Nick
Chris Burgess
this discussion. I'm a new developer working through licensing issues
as we speak, and I've found this discussion VERY informative and VERY
worthwhile. It easily falls under the banner of Joomla! General
Development, and if it doesn't occur here, then where else is it going
to happen?
On Sep 17, 11:10 am, "Nick Savov" <n...@iowawebcompany.com> wrote:
> BTW, Jenifer (or anyone else), here's a very easy way to settle this.
>
> Where in the TOS does it say that a developer CANNOT have any NON-GPL
Nick Savov
elin
Mike Hamanaka
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/laLQbOyBK6QJ.
Nick Savov
Please quote me the phrase that implies it in the TOS then. Don't just
state it's there. Please quote me the phrase that implies it because
others and I don't see it. What's with all this cryptology?
No, *neither* the TOS nor the add an extension page links to the page you
referenced. One links to:
http://docs.joomla.org/Publishing_to_JED
The other to:
http://docs.joomla.org/Category:JED
The TOS when it links http://docs.joomla.org/Publishing_to_JED (not the
page you mentioned) states it as a FAQ *not* rules. Here's a direct
quote:
"You find additional help in the JED FAQs"
The submission form states "Before publishing your file to JED please
read" (in small letters so I don't know where you're seeing the big
letter). Please be accurate!
NO where are those pages stated as rules yet you keep insisting them to be
rules! The hidden "rule" that you mention is TWO links away from the
rules hidden in a mass of other links! Come on now.
As developers, we're not google and I don't think we should be expected to
spider crawl the whole Joomla docs (and penalized for months for
misdocumentation). Why can't it be stated in the TOS? Why do we have to
play pin the tail on the donkey? Here's another important question, if
it's a "rule" and it's SO obvious, why doesn't the JED Team Leader even
know about the "rule"?
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2322583#p2322583
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2614489#p2614489
How can we as developers be expected to know about it when the leader of
the JED Team doesn't even know about it. Wonderful, so you, Brian, and Jen
(and others) have been around long enough to know it. Great! Wonderful!
What about the new poor saps that agree to be bound by the JED TOS? Oh
wait..it's not in there. How hard is it just to put it in there for
newbies?
Finally, in answer to your finally, if it was added to the TOS I'd be
happy :) I'd congratulate the person (people) who added it. I would go on
my merry way.
Have you seen me complain about other things that you would imply in your
questions that I've been an all-around complainer/jerk? Oh please, do
share a link. Seriously if you're going to have accusatory questions like
that at least have something to back it up. I have a clear conscience
before everyone and before myself and before my God (who knows my heart
better than I do)! So if you have anything, please let me know, and I'll
gladly recant if I'm wrong... but I know of nothing! Therefore, please
don't paint me as a complainer/jerk for trying to correct the wrongs done
by the JED Team (whether unintentionally or intentionally).
There is no bigger issue other than the JED being unresponsive for months,
being close to dialogue and suggestions, and banning people
differentially. How is it wrong of me to expect fairness and accuracy and
to stand behind Hikashop and Acymailing? 3 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and not a lick done about it.
Kind regards,
Nick
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/VmbbNMBw4N8J.
Jennifer Marriott
"Where in the TOS does it say that a developer CANNOT have any NON-GPL
Joomla Extension on their OWN personal site?"
C- General Site Usage
- All extensions, listings and developer sites must comply with the latest version of the Joomla! license.
Nick Savov
I'm very thankful for your reply! :) Yes, when I say on, I mean for
download as an extension that they developed that they are distributing.
To break this down,
1) Joomla is licensed as GPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html).
2) The GPL doesn't say that a developer can't distribute non-GPL
extensions for download on their own site.
3) Therefore, if a developer were to distribute non-GPL extensions for
download on their own site they, *as well as their site*, would still be
in compliance with the GPL (which is the latest version of the Joomla
license).
Kind regards,
Nick
>
> "Where in the TOS does it say that a developer CANNOT have any NON-GPL
>
> Joomla Extension on their OWN personal site?"
>
>
>
> When you say ON do you mean using them on their own site or offering them
> for download as an extension that they developed that they are
> distributing?
>
> If you are asking about the latter:
>
> It says specifically here:
> C- General Site Usage
>
> 1. All extensions, listings and developer sites must comply with the
> latest version of the Joomla! license.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/ZYgKUFdZ-7kJ.
JM Simonet
I am no moderator of this list.
I am ordering nothing to anyone and I am known enough around here
that the doubt should not exist on this.
It is indeed a personal opinion.
I am sort of fed up with this kind of thread.
It started in the forum. it should have stayed in the forum.
I guess I will just abstain reading any more of this thread and keep
concentrating on my tasks.
1.7.1 is on its way.
JM
Nick Savov
Kind regards,
Nick
Nick Savov
I gave a reasonable and accurate interpretation? More importantly, do you
see how someone who is new could easily interpret it as I did?
Kind regards,
Nick
Jennifer Marriott
JM is absolutely correct in that this discussion should have stayed on the forum in the 3-4 threads that you have either participated in or started.
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
--
Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos
Lead Developer, AkeebaBackup.com
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla! General Development" group.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/88iQss3q3BEJ.
Nick Savov
this is what I get? 4 points of attack?
1) What? When did I change the subject? I was responding to your
statement. That's not a subject change that's a response.
I'm saying that what you pointed out does NOT say that a developer CANNOT
have any NON-GPL Joomla Extension on their OWN personal site. It doesn't
imply that either (if it's correctly read by a normal person...not someone
who has insider knowledge... and especially by a newbie).
What it states is that extensions, listings, and developer's sites have to
comply with the GPL. If the developers have non-GPL extension on their
OWN personal site that AREN'T listed on the JED, it doesn't (according to
that rule) disqualify ALL their GPL extenions, because the GPL doesn't say
they can't do that. I asked for your fair evaluation of that
interpretation, what was wrong with that?
Ok, so in #1 you accuse me of changing the subject but then look what you
do in numbers 2-4.
2) Again, I'll point out that the leader of the JED Team doesn't think
there's such a rule as you think there is:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2322583#p2322583
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2614489#p2614489
Go argue against him. You two disagree ;)
3) What? Here, show me where I've gotten a reply in the following
discussions (check the dates):
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2535338#p2535338
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2516644#p2516644
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644962
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965
These are just *some* of the ones I found quickly. Others haven't gotten
replies to their issues either.
I've NEVER stated that I've gotten no response ever to any discussion!
Keep things in context. To certain topics I have. To certain topics, I
haven't. So I really don't know what you're going on about. Ad hominem?
I'm not sure, but you're definitely railing on me a bit and taking the
things I've said out of context, don't you think?
And I CLEARLY stated why I would not report Joomlaworks. It's not in the
JED TOS, so I can't check mark that I believe it's in the JED TOS. That
would be dishonest at best. Please don't put the exact opposite in my
mouth. Re-read:
http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general/msg/41a17d0881d9d426
If you have trouble understand my writing I'm sure you can have someone
else help you out. Marius has been particularly good at understanding and
so have many others. Perhaps you should consult with someone else rather
than attacking me before you get your facts straight.
4)Wonderful! I'm glad it's explained, but practically speaking do is it
so? Do they actually listen or do they ignore?
Let's see...show me where I've gotten a reply:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=655313
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2535338#p2535338
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p=2516644#p2516644
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644962
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=644965
Look I understand they are human and can't do everything. That's why I've
offered to help several times before and it's almost always (perhaps
always) resulted in a dead end due to unresponsiveness. Others have
offered to help too. We just get excluded due to lack of response.
I'll add my #5
5) Would you kindly please quit with the untrue attacks against me? At
least I've got some evidence to back up my claims. If you actually go
back and re-read my comments you can see how grossly you've misinterpreted
me and how you're making me out into something I'm not.
Kind regards,
Nick
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Joomla! General Development" group.
> To view this discussion on the web, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-general/-/88iQss3q3BEJ.
Phill Brown
brings up this link
http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
When I go to add an extension to a directory the following requirement
is at the bottom of the form
"I have read, understand and agree to abide the JED rules."
Which links to
http://extensions.joomla.org/tos
I would there for believe and accept that this link *is* the Terms of
Service for the extensions directory?
No where does it mention in there that a developer cannot have NON-GPL
extensions on their website in this TOS.
I have no preference for whether the TOS was changed or not however I
can see as an outsider and being a Joomla enthusiast who has listed
extensions in the directory and has followed this topic I can see that
people are given different treatment for abstract rules that are NOT
listed in what seems to be the extensions TOS.
How are new people supposed to know about supposed rules that are not
listed in the Terms of Service above and abstracted somewhere in wiki
documents?
I've been around Joomla since the Mambo days and I had never heard of
this hidden rule until today.
I rarely speak out but to ignore does the Joomla Community an
injustice to the developers that have a hard time being accepted by
the whim of the JED over hard to find abstracted rules. And these are
people that have chosen to use Joomla as their tool and are helping to
shape and drive Joomla into the future.
I can also understand why the discussion has moved here. Where does
one go when the other methods of contact and resolve fail?
Some questions gathered from this include:
Should hidden abstracted rules be a part of the TOS?
If they are not part of the TOS should they even be considered a rule?
To forget this and move on would only cause more heartache to more
people down the track.
All IMHO.
Regards,
Phill Brown
M 04 2481 9754
Bathurst Software Solutions
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Davenport
Thread locked.
Joomla Leadership Team - Production Working Group
Joomla Documentation Coordinator