3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback

[JM Simonet]

Folks,

after this post

http://community.joomla.org/blogs/community/1568-30-first-look.html

I downloaded the project itself and installed it
https://github.com/Joomla3-Admin-template/joomla-cms/zipball/template

Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the unfinished parts.

(No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken, Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)

Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.

1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of "Strapped"  ( ;-)  ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5 templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not systematic.

2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a fixed width is creating many issues.

Even in English, and at fortiori in other languages, the labels occupy 2 or more lines for some.

This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the Managers.

The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.

3. No RTL consideration at all for now

4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an important bonus for usability.

5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything == lost of time

I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.

Feedback welcome.

JM

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[elin]

As far as I know new templates are new features and have to go through the same testing and commenting as anything else. Once something is accepted then the JBS takes over and solves any problems that are found.

It would probably be a good idea to collect some screen shots in various languages that use longer strings since that will also have to be accounted for. If you pass them along then perhaps that team can solve.

This isn't a comment about that specific template (which I can't say I have looked at in depth) but baseline requirements for any template would  for me have to include 

working in RTL

working in languages that use long words

meet the same accessibility standards (508, etc) that Hathor and Beez meet. I'll leave that to the experts but if someone using only a tracker ball or a screen reader can't use it then I don't think it's  okay to ship. But we have months to make things work.

My main concern in general is that no existing site or template break during the move to 3.0.

Elin

[Amy Stephen]

Might be good to link to the 508 and other accessiblity testing you are speaking about so that folks understand what is expected. I can't remember extensive tracker ball and screen reader testing but even if a few of these items are identified it can be a good jumping off point for those working together on the new templates.

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[piotr_cz]

Usually under an article featured at joomla.org there is a link to
discussion (people.joomla.org), but not this time.
I think this would be quite helpful, as UX team could get impressions
from users.
As I understand, this group and ux.joomla.org is focused on
developers.

> >>http://community.joomla.org/**blogs/community/1568-30-first-**look.html<http://community.joomla.org/blogs/community/1568-30-first-look.html>

> >>  I downloaded the project itself and installed it

> >>https://github.com/Joomla3-**Admin-template/joomla-cms/**zipball/temp...<https://github.com/Joomla3-Admin-template/joomla-cms/zipball/template>

>
> >> Obviously it is unfinished and my feedback will not concern the
> >> unfinished parts.
> >> (No descriptions displayed during installation, Options toolbar broken,
> >> Articles Titles and Category field missing, menu items associations, etc.)
> >>  Nevertheless I am concerned about this design generally speaking.
>
> >> 1. This template's name should be called "Scroller" instead of
> >> "Strapped"  ( ;-)  ), for the need to scroll all over the UI is so
> >> important that we immediately feel the urge to recover our good old 1.5
> >> templates where the scrolls there were sometimes important but not
> >> systematic.
> >>  2. In the whole admin, the choice to display a menu on left with a
> >> fixed width is creating many issues.

> >> Even in English, and* at fortiori* in other languages, the labels occupy

> >> 2 or more lines for some.
> >> This can be seen in the left menu and also in the columns heads of the
> >> Managers.
> >> The Manager Titles are unreadable as they are cut, even in English.
>
> >> 3. No RTL consideration at all for now
>
> >> 4. I am not a fan either of the black and white icons. Colour is an
> >> important bonus for usability.
>
> >> 5. I welcome some of the Tabs but used systematically for everything ==
> >> lost of time
>
> >> I sincerely hope it will be possible to improve/change these issues.
>
> >> Feedback welcome.
>
> >> JM
>
> >> --
>

> >> *Please keep the Subject wording in your answers*

>
> >> This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not
> >> disclose or use the information contained in this e-mail if you are not the
> >> intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please
> >> notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies.

> >> ------------------------------**-----------------------------

[elin]

Angie did and does testing with actual users who rely on assistive technology. The results of one round of that were, in fact, we and the idea for and then picked the Hathor project for GSoC in 2009 and have been happily at the forefront of providing access to all to all aspects of web interaction since 1.6 was released.

Elin

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[Kyle Ledbetter]

Hey JM, sorry for the delayed reply, I was just made aware of this post (how are you btw, been a while :)

To your points, yes it's still very much under construction and lots left to do. So far it's been just me but I've made lots of progress in a short while. My plan is to do a 1st round of updates on everything to get the markup standardized and the new template built, then make rounds (and rounds) of UX improvements, test accessibility, add RTL, etc, etc.

I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive feedback from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to update their components and completely standardize them), template developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback https://twitter.com/#!/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen unified excitement like that in our community before.

Some of your thoughts seem to be personal opinions about design. I can guarantee you that all aspects of usability and experience will be improved and that the most modern and effect UX design patterns and styles are being applied here.

If you'd like to chat more about any aspect I'm always around and up for it in any of these channels:

http://ux.joomla.org/forum

https://twitter.com/#!/kyleledbetter

skype: pixelpraise

email: kyle.ledbetter <at> community.joomla.org

Hope all is well on your end and looking forward to working together to deliver this exciting new experience

-Kyle

[elin]

Hi Kyle,

Cool. Overall CMS related communication takes place on the CMS and JBS lists .   So I'm glad you've now made your first (I think ) foray into the world where your  work will be scrutinized, pushed in directions you never thought about, and in general given a workout like it never has had. It's really important that the people who will in the end have responsibility for long term maintenance get to know the code.   Probably you will want to listen for feed back on the general list too since the admin templates has big implications for the independent developer community and of course anything that touches core outputs.  Most important I think is to get something into the feature tracker with a link to your repo so people can try it out and start giving feedback and even patches. Make sure to subscribe to the issue report with the work since that way you will get email with each comment.

There is a great community out there that will do testing in all kinds of settings including every language and every kind of assistive device you can think of.

Of course there are months to go and no one expects that what you have now is ready for prime time, but early feed back is way better than later feed back so let's go for it. 

I think we are going to work insanely hard not to disrupt a single 2.5 site that goes to 3.0 but to offer them great new features too. So the sooner we have things to  test the sooner we can start coding and testing out things like how do we offer an upgrading user the option to switch templates. 

Elin

[JM Simonet]

Hello Kyle,

I guess Elin has rightfully summarized the present situation.

We have reached a step where trunk will become 3.0 pre-alpha at the end of May (after the 2.5.5 release).

Until I posted on this list, I was only aware of some screenshots you posted in your forum.

Getting a full branch to test made the difference.

I have tested your branch with 2.5 admin templates and they are in many respects broken. i.e. the changes you brought to core make them incompatible.

Therefore, as committing your proposal to Trunk implies a lot of code changes, we do need to test it now fully, for core and for 3pd, including legacy.

This is a much heavier task than when it took weeks to re-implement an International Menu which had been "forgotten" when the joomla.org family of sites design was revamped.

My thoughts are evidently personal, based on the tests I did with your branch.

You should not dismiss them though too fast.

CMS maintainers and JBS have spent countless hours to make bluestork usable (and Andy to create accessible Hathor) and we now have some experience to share.

Sorry, I don't tweet and I do not think that such an implementation can anyway be discussed or supported or not in a few words.

I have added you to my skype contacts and I am ready to explain to you with screenshots where I think are the main culprits + suggesting some improvements.

If this is not enough. I am willing to make a full pdf with details.

Friendly

JM

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[elin]

Obviously the questions for upgraders and new installs are very different.  With new installs you can basically make huge changes, although I would opt to give people the option of switching to the old look at least for 3.0, maybe not offering the old look at all by 3.5.  (Kind of like Ubuntu gave you an easy way to switch back to Gnome desktop initially but now you need to install it if you want it).

We're definitely going to have to have overrides one way or another since we shouldn't break existing templates for people upgrading. Some of us had informally discussed switching to the Hathor layouts except for the button for the filter bars since they are better than the core layouts in  a number of ways (having benefited from coming after the core ones were done). 

I'm wondering if we can do something for upgrading users like what Google does with it's "this is the new design do you want to go back to the old one?" question for people who are using Bluestork (and for Hathor assuming the new meets all the Hathor standards).   For people with other admin templates this will be particularly important, in fact for 3.0 we might start with a 'this is the old design do you want to try the new" question and then switch the question to "this is new do you want to go back to old?", and then by 3.5 we stop shipping the old but offer downloads. 

Anyway just some thoughts.

Elin

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[Michael Babker]

My two cents…

It's going to be impossible to use Kyle's work and maintain 100% B/C to 2.5.  Kyle's had to touch a lot of Platform files to change the HTML markup to follow suit with Bootstrap's standards.  That said, it would be possible to update both Bluestork and Hathor's CSS to cope with this, but for say AdminPraise (I know, bad example considering who the project is run by), they'd have to have a 2.5 and 3.0 version because of the changes in the HTML.  And Bluestork and Hathor both won't carry over a 100% similar look since there are some changes in the markup to cope with.

Part of the goal is to standardize the CSS if I'm not mistaken.  Maybe this would be a good way to show that it's possible to use non-Bootstrap templates with the new markup by following a standard CSS so that it's easier to install new templates.

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[Rouven Weßling]

On 22.04.2012, at 20:11, Michael Babker wrote:

> And Bluestork and Hathor both won't carry over a 100% similar look since there are some changes in the markup to cope with.

This leads to an interesting question. Bootstrap is designed in a way to heavily describes how something should look like trough classes. This goes kinda contrary to the CSS idea of being able to change how things looks by adapting the stylesheet instead of the markup but I suppose it's the only way to write a CSS "framework" that isn't application specific.

However I'm not sure we should use these - for lack of a better word - unsemantic class names in places that can't be changed trough layout overrides. One example may be our ACL widget (https://github.com/Joomla3-Admin-template/joomla-cms/commit/80fde2712b1b830e7e95a0fc7235ac4ee3016016). Now the current class name "pane-sliders" certainly isn't semantic but neither is "tabbable tabs-left". Indeed this is already going to be weird if we wanna put them on the right side for an RTL layout. What we could do is just use the id (maybe even a better one than "permissions-sliders" since that contains the slider again).

The downside is that this would use more CSS. What do others think?

Best regards
Rouven

[Kyle Ledbetter]

While the class names in Bootstrap aren't perfectly semantic, they're lightyears beyond where we currently are in Joomla and we get so much for free by using Bootstrap. I've barely had to add any UI elements to support any type of UI you can imagine, which is exactly what Joomla needs since components are so varied and versatile. Also we'll continuously add to it and extend Bootstrap to meet 3pd dev needs so they don't have to innovate outside the core UI and therefore get right back where we are today, where each new component feels like an entirely different CMS with it's own unique UI and unique CSS classes, etc, leading to a terribly disconnected user experience and impossibly disconnected UI that makes training and styling a nightmare.

Also in reference to Bluestork and J 2.5 stuff: we're in this effort because we all recognized a problem that needs to be fixed and we can't fix it if we have to try and create a new library of UI while still trying to fully support the old, lacking UI we'll end up limiting what the new UI/UX can do (since time and resources are limited). 2.5 is LTS and people can stick with is as long as they need. 3.0 is an entirely new version number than can (and should) have new, improved UI/UX to not only catch up, but surpass others out there. We all have to commit and work together to get this massive job done. Basically, if you want the old standards and old UI, you can use the old CMS, it's impossible to have both living in the same place.

What I really hope happens next is that we can collaborate and all bring our expertise to the table to divided and conquer. For example, I really need help and guidance in best practices for building things properly for the API and core, and of course identifying things like RTL, translation, accessibility issues (which has already started in this thread and I appreciate it). I'm a UX guy but really need help in properly updating the core as Rouven has already been doing. 

Lots to do in a short amount of time, but lots of excitement and promise lining up for 3.0, who's ready to knock this out? :)

-Kyle

[elin]

Yes anything with left or right really needs to be renamed if you want to avoid confusion, as we have been through before, one person's semantic becomes another person's crazy very very quickly. (This is why in Beez you see before and after describing the placement of one sidebar on either side of the body rather than right and left.) As soon as people start making overrides too, all the semantic naming becomes not just non-semantic but anti-semantic (which is why neutral names with strings or comments describing the usage in the actual template is the best thing.)  Writing  for the whole wide world of people who use all kinds of layouts we have not anticipated is hard, but we do have to know that it's going to happen that people will push anything in the core very very hard and far.  

LTS means that enterprise with a lot of custom applications requiring the old platform does not have to migrate, but the goal for 3.0 is for no migration problems period and we should hope lots of people upgrade either to 3.0 and 3.1 (and I but better admin UI will be a motivation for this).  We have major work to do to make up for the pain we caused with 1.6-2.5 to risk that bad reputation of incompatible upgrades again. Using a major extension that hasn't be upgraded to the current platform is a reason not to upgrade.  I don't think we should expect that choice of template is a reason not to upgrade.  Fortunately, many fewer people change admin templates than front end templates and I suppose hypothetically people with admin access have better skills than those who don't have it and the costs of some rough edges are not as great as in the front end, but still for people have invested time and/or money in the back end design, it's asking a lot so we need to work on it. 

I'm definitely for updating the current templates as models of how to do it if that is possible.  

So as usual we need to work together to solve problems and challenges, and I don't mean that in a cynical or sarcastic  way at all. It's not easy doing this work and meeting the needs of several million existing websites and several million that will launch with 3.0 will be challenging. By working our way through this for the next few months I think we'll probably come up with better solutions than we might have thought possible. We've seen this before. 

Elin

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:55:04 PM UTC-4, infograf768 wrote:

[Amy Stephen]

On Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:59:07 PM UTC-5, elin wrote:

So as usual we need to work together to solve problems and challenges, and I don't mean that in a cynical or sarcastic  way at all.

Definitely agree. And, Kyle has been working with others in a really positive and open way.

Kyle - one idea Elin mentioned that I think is very important is to create a Joomlacode Feature Request here => http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/tracker/?action=TrackerItemBrowse&tracker_id=8549

That will give you one more way to connect with people. In it, like you have done in the magazine articles, etc., link to the github repo, the UX location, this list, (in addition to the People group you have been using, the UX forum, the magazine articles, and twitter.) Hopefully, you'll have some time to work, too, in addition to pulling in help and good ideas. ;-)

We're pretty much guaranteed to not agree on class names. What I encourage be done is that we pass values into the HTML fields and modules and various locations and try not to hardcode them in. That will help separate the presentation layer from the HTML.

Also, I would encourage someone to create an Admin template using Foundation, or another framework environment. That way, it will be much easier to lift those presentation elements out of the rendering.

That will save us from a futile debate on semantics -- and make sure there is good flexibility.

I'm back working on a project at the University. I'll see what types of usability/accessibility labs and testing facilities might be available. I think we all agree that supporting our international community and accessibility is important to everyone.

Now - all this talk about one project. Let's get some other efforts fired up. Who else is contributing code for 3.0? Should be a great release.

[Kyle Ledbetter]

For the left VS right stuff, I think it's as simple as conditionally changing those from the "left" classname to "right" for RTL and everything will pop into place perfectly w/ Bootstrap.

For the markup and LTS, my 3.0 effort isn't just the admin template, it's changing the entire markup of Joomla to standardize and support component and template devs so they don't have to innovate outside the core and all get on the same page. Most of them are already following the new Bootstrap and JUX markup standards for 3.0 versions of their components, ditching their own theming and non-standard styles, etc. So when a user moves to 3.0 they'll need to update everything and magically get standards across the board. I know that's best-case scenario, but it's the vision and main driving force in all this. Because in reality, the JUX is about the experience in Joomla once you've extended it to meet your needs (aka install 10 components). 

Imagine the Google Apps user experience (since we're using the new google groups). When you go from Mail to Calendar to Docs to Groups, it's now a seamless user experience where you select your App in the top nav and then get an App-specific left nav and toolbar. This is the exact model I'm following for the 3.0 admin, where when you move from Content to JomSocial to RedShop to Kunena to K2, etc, it all feels like the same system. This is why I'm so excited about what's happening. Everyone's lining up to get on the same page as a community and system. We just need all the proper standard JUI available for them.

On Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:59:07 PM UTC-5, elin wrote:

[Gary Brooks]

Just throwing my 2 cents in, I think the value of creating the views first and then going through a iteration process with Kyle is the direction we should be heading.   I would be glad to provide user testing for the new admin template, and or organize a usability study with the community.    

Gary Brooks 
garyb...@cloudaccess.net
Phone:  +1-231-421-7160 Ext: 7161

Direct Office: +1-231-421-7161
Skype id: garyjaybrooks2000
Fax:    313-899-7032
Web:    http://www.cloudaccess.net
Address:  10850 Traverse Hwy, Suite 4480 | Traverse City, Michigan 49684

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[Gary Jay Brooks]

Test

[Sam Moffatt]

Test back at you.

Sam Moffatt
http://pasamio.id.au

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Gary Jay Brooks
<garyb...@cloudaccess.net> wrote:
> Test

>
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[Viet Vu]

Hi Kyle,

Thank for your great work so far.

I know that you are working on a new Joomla Admin Template but just be able to test it recently.

https://github.com/Joomla3-Admin-template/joomla-cms/blob/template/administrator/components/com_content/views/article/tmpl/edit.php

I notice that you are using a DIV with class="control-label", AFAIK it is because you can not add CSS class name to form field label (as Bootstrap required)? If it true then you may want to check my pull request https://github.com/joomla/joomla-platform/pull/1169

That pull would allow us to specify CSS class name for form field label via form manifest file. That can save a lot of markup too.

Viet

[Kyle Ledbetter]

Hi Viet,

Thanks for your post, I'll be updating to get the "control-label" class on the label, didn't know that was possible :)

Having the class on the <div around the label isn't necessarily a bad thing though, the Bootstrap guys made the class less specific for cases exactly like this.

-Kyle

On Monday, April 23, 2012 9:22:25 PM UTC-5, Viet Vu wrote:

Hi Kyle,

Thank for your great work so far.

I know that you are working on a new Joomla Admin Template but just be able to test it recently.

https://github.com/Joomla3-Admin-template/joomla-cms/blob/template/administrator/components/com_content/views/article/tmpl/edit.php

I notice that you are using a DIV with class="control-label", AFAIK it is because you can not add CSS class name to form field label (as Bootstrap required)? If it true then you may want to check my pull request https://github.com/joomla/joomla-platform/pull/1169

That pull would allow us to specify CSS class name for form field label via form manifest file. That can save a lot of markup too.

Viet

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:58 AM, Sam Moffatt <pas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Test back at you.

Sam Moffatt
http://pasamio.id.au

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Gary Jay Brooks
<garyb...@cloudaccess.net> wrote:
> Test
>
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[Kyle Ledbetter]

Hey JM just wanted to post this pic here in case you didn't see on twitter, I'm moving the page title up to the header where there is more room :)

More updates coming

-Kyle

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[TJ Baker]

Love the work Kyle, but not liking the page title next to the site title...as presented, at least.  Something about it feels clunky, for lack of a better term.  

The page title in the image where it's shown below the site title seems to make good UI sense, as in, this is where the user is, and these items to the right are actions that can be done here.

Just my tuppence... If that's even worth anything anymore, with inflation, recessions and what not :)

Keep up the great work!  It's awesome and exciting to see!

Cheers

TJ Baker

Team Joomlashack

www.joomlashack.com

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[Paulo Griiettner]

TJ... I like you very much, but I have to disagree to you in this point of view... The title going up make's more sense, because, there, is a vacant spot and on small screens, the space where it currently are, will be needed for the buttons. Besides that, the title can be long as well, and I would even suggest to that title work's like a breadcrumb, with links to go back to parents if it is more than one...

Paulo Griiettner

[elin]

Kyle,

That's a big help, the crowded-ness in that space right now is a big issue in the current managers even in English. 

Elin 

[elin]

Is the help link on the top bar the contextual help or is it still the top help menu?  Have you just not dealt with that button (and the preferences button) on the tool bar yet? 

I think it would be really good to have a contextual help icon that is more universal than the life preserver (I always wonder how people who live in land locked places interpret that one).

Elin

[Aaron Wood]

I agree with regards to a universal contextual help icon. What about a question mark? That seems to be pretty much universal.

 

Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director
The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

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From: elin <elin....@gmail.com>
To: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 10:08 AM

Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback

More updates coming

I've been trying to do lots of communication on twitter, skype and in the ux.joomla.org forum, and I've receive overwhelmingly positive  feedback from all types of folks, component developers (who are all onboard to update their components and completely standardize them), template developers, and end users. To get a quick pulse check all this feedback https://twitter.com/# !/search/joomla%203.0 < I've never seen unified excitement like that in our community before.

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[JM Simonet]

>Hey JM just wanted to post this pic here in case you didn't see on
>twitter, I'm moving the page title up to the header where there is
>more room :)

I have seen this, Kyle. Nice.
As I already told you, I do not Tweet.
I am keeping an eye on your branch. at least for the Usability issues.

The fixed-width fields and columns is still a big issue, as I
demonstrated to you the other day. As well as the left menu stealing
our real-estate.

BTW: one can't install sample data with your branch

[JM Simonet]

In Spanish it is

¿  ( &#xBF; )

and in some languages, it's not used at all.

JM

At 7:12 -0700 29/04/12, Aaron Wood wrote:

I agree with regards to a universal contextual help icon. What about a question mark? That seems to be pretty much universal.

 

Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director

The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

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[Aaron Wood]

I thought in spanish there was the upside down one before the question, and the regular one after?

    I may be mistaken, spanish class was 20 years ago.

However, you are correct that it is not used in other languages. Having said that, I still think it should be recognizable by most people as a symbol for a question or help.

    This bears thinking upon...

 

Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director
The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

---

From: JM Simonet <infog...@gmail.com>
To: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 1:20 PM

Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback

[Terrance Arthur]

Unlike question marks or life preservers a Red Cross has been a universal symbol for help/aid since 1881.

Terry Arthur

[brian teeman]

On Sunday, 29 April 2012 18:30:11 UTC+1, terryarthur wrote:

Unlike question marks or life preservers a Red Cross has been a universal symbol for help/aid since 1881.

Sorry but thats not true the red cross is not a global symbol for help/aid as can be seen by the correct official name 

 

Terry Arthur

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Aaron Wood <freshink...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I thought in spanish there was the upside down one before the question, and the regular one after?

    I may be mistaken, spanish class was 20 years ago.

However, you are correct that it is not used in other languages. Having said that, I still think it should be recognizable by most people as a symbol for a question or help.

    This bears thinking upon...

 

Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director
The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

---

From: JM Simonet <infog...@gmail.com>

To: joomla-dev-cms@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback

In Spanish it is

¿  ( &#xBF; )

and in some languages, it's not used at all.

JM

At 7:12 -0700 29/04/12, Aaron Wood wrote:

I agree with regards to a universal contextual help icon. What about a question mark? That seems to be pretty much universal.

 

Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director

The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

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[Terrance Arthur]

@Brian,

I'm afraid your knowledge of Joomla! far exceeds you understanding of the ICRC. It would have saved both of us some time if you had simply researched you reply prior to dismissing my suggestion.

The ICRC is part of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement  and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies so that is not it's proper name.  To quote Wikipedia "The ICRC is the oldest and most honored organization within the IRC and one of the most widely recognized organizations in the world, having won three Nobel Peace Prizes in 1917, 1944, and 1963."

I agree you are correct that adding a crescent might make it more universal but the Red Cross is a universal international symbol and has been since the 1950's. The Red Cross is recognized by all the signers of the Geneva Coventions. See this page on the site you referenced http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?ReadForm&id=375&ps=P which is a pretty exhaustive list of the countries of the world. The Red Cross is specifically named in article 9.

So can we agree the cross/crescent symbol would be completely universal?

Terry Arthur

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[brian teeman]

I'm not into arguing or pettiness. the fact is that the red cross is not a global symbol that would be immediately recognised by everyone in the world to mean help and assistance which is the whole point of the original suggestion. I certainly would not recommend adding a crescent ot the cross to make a universal symbol - if nothing else both of those marks are very protected symbols and can not be abused

[elin]

Can we not get into Middle Eastern politics? 

Let's see what Kyle comes up.

Elin

[brian teeman]

On Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:54:05 UTC+1, elin wrote:

Can we not get into Middle Eastern politics? 

It is nothing to do with the Middle East  - the Red Crescent is not restricted to the Middle East

 

Let's see what Kyle comes up.

I agree 1000%

[Terrance Arthur]

@Brian, Elin

Ok let's forget about the Red Cross/Red Crescent and just take a look at ISO 7001? Oh, look the international standard is a cross.

I'm sure Kyle doesn't mind me making suggestions and can speak for himself if he wants to do all the thinking himself.

Terry

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[elin]

Terry,

It's totally fine to make suggestions, what I am suggesting is that we not get into a flame war about it and the related political and religious issues or the different uses of these symbols. I, at least, would be thankful if we do not go down that path.  I also would consider it helpful if discussions did not include personal comments. 

So now we know why people invented the life preserver icon .. it doesn't use a ? or i and doesn't have religious connotations. 

Of course we could use this one ...

http://s3.thehighdefinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/NXcvK.jpg

Elin

[Nick Savov]

lol @ the image :)
~~~

[Terrance Arthur]

@Elin,

Thanks for the permission to contribute to the list. I'll try to conduct myself better in the future.

For some reason I had the idea that actual facts were pertinent and should be articulated but what does the International Standards Organization know anyway?

Terry

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[JM Simonet]

Folks,

the present icon in 2.5 is the interrnational sign for "Life Saver" on life buoys

http://images.search.conduit.com/search?q=life%20buoys%20icon&ctid=CT2336579&searchsource=3

Why reinvent the wheel? ;-)

JM

@Elin,

Thanks for the permission to contribute to the list. I'll try to conduct myself better in the future.

For some reason I had the idea that actual facts were pertinent and should be articulated but what does the International Standards Organization know anyway?

Terry

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 5:25 PM, brian teeman <joom...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I'm not into arguing or pettiness. the fact is that the red cross is not a global symbol that would be immediately recognised by everyone in the world to mean help and assistance which is the whole point of the original suggestion. I certainly would not recommend adding a crescent ot the cross to make a universal symbol - if nothing else both of those marks are very protected symbols and can not be abused

On Sunday, 29 April 2012 21:10:16 UTC+1, terryarthur wrote:

@Brian,

I'm afraid your knowledge of Joomla! far exceeds you understanding of the ICRC. It would have saved both of us some time if you had simply researched you reply prior to dismissing my suggestion.

The ICRC is part of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement  and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies so that is not it's proper name.  To quote Wikipedia "The ICRC is the oldest and most honored organization within the IRC and one of the most widely recognized organizations in the world, having won three Nobel Peace Prizes in 1917, 1944, and 1963."

I agree you are correct that adding a crescent might make it more universal but the Red Cross is a universal international symbol and has been since the 1950's. The Red Cross is recognized by all the signers of the Geneva Coventions. See this page on the site you referenced http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?ReadForm&id=375&ps=P which is a pretty exhaustive list of the countries of the world. The Red Cross is specifically named in article 9.

So can we agree the cross/crescent symbol would be completely universal?

Terry Arthur

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 3:01 PM, brian teeman <joom...@googlemail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 29 April 2012 18:30:11 UTC+1, terryarthur wrote:

Unlike question marks or life preservers a Red Cross has been a universal symbol for help/aid since 1881.

Sorry but thats not true the red cross is not a global symbol for help/aid as can be seen by the correct official name 

 

Terry Arthur

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Aaron Wood <freshink...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I thought in spanish there was the upside down one before the question, and the regular one after?

    I may be mistaken, spanish class was 20 years ago.

However, you are correct that it is not used in other languages. Having said that, I still think it should be recognizable by most people as a symbol for a question or help.

    This bears thinking upon...

 

Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director
The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

---

From: JM Simonet <infog...@gmail.com>
To: joomla-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [jcms] Re: 3-.0 Admin Template projects - asking for Feedback

In Spanish it is

¿  ( &#xBF; )

and in some languages, it's not used at all.

JM

At 7:12 -0700 29/04/12, Aaron Wood wrote:

I agree with regards to a universal contextual help icon. What about a question mark? That seems to be pretty much universal.

 

Sincerely,
Aaron Wood, Creative Director

The Fresh Ink Group, LLC

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[TJ Baker]

Thanks Paulo... What you and others say about space being cramped makes perfect sense..... I concede my opinion :)

I do like your mention of 'breadcrumbs' and that's brought to mind that perhaps we could have 'site title / page title' breadcrumbs in the header, with the titles formatted as typical breadcrumbs might be?......

I'm still hung up on having a large logo/site title with what looks like another large heading in the page title just floating there next to it......

TJ Baker

Team Joomlashack

www.joomlashack.com

Sent from my iPad

[TJ Baker]

Ermmmm, I meant I retract my opinion, and concede your points .... :p

TJ Baker

Team Joomlashack

www.joomlashack.com

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 28, 2012, at 10:13 PM, Paulo Griiettner <griie...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Russ Winter]

I agree with JM, the life-saver icon depicts "help" in the non-medical sense of the word, more so than the Red Cross, in my region, at least, the Red Cross is primarily used by Medical groups, meaning "Medical Aid" I don't think it would directly convey the type of "Help" or "assistance" that we would be conveying to users.