Where have all the Senior developers gone?

[Steel City Phantom]

I work out of Pittsburgh.  we have two world class universities about a half hour down the road.  Carnegie Mellon University's computer science department is one of the best in the world, and University of Pittsburgh isn't shabby either.  so i have to ask, where are all the good java developers?

we have been trying to staff out a project for 6 weeks now.  every resume we get is from people with 4-5 years experience.  I do tech interviews on them for the technologies we are using and its all the same, they have a vague understanding of how to use the technologies (spring, hibernate, struts, nothing major) work, but for my needs, that puts them in the class of jr developer.  i need senior guys that have done this already, lived the learning curve, knows how to fix issues, knows how to squeeze every last bit of functionality out of these technologies, and i can't find them.

we are paying good market rates for these guys, so its not like we are being cheap.  i refuse to believe that Google swallowed all the good java guys when they opened their development center here in Pittsburgh a few years ago.  

its so bad that i had one candidate that i interviewed a few weeks ago.  he got irritated with me when i was drilling him on the technology.  his actually had the huevos to say to me "I have a masters degree from CMU in computer science, i don't care what technology you are using, i can figure it out and use it"  to which i replied "that may be true, but that makes you a junior developer in my eyes.  as a senior developer, im not paying you to figure it out, im paying you to step in and do it"  he had 4 years experience writing web pages for a marketing firm.  why the recruiter even thought he would pass the test is still beyond me.  

where have all the good guys gone?  is a 9-10 year experienced very seasoned java guy really demanding salaries north of 90K now or what?  

--
You want it fast, cheap, or right.  Pick two!!

[Kevin Wright]

A couple of my own experiences here, so completely subjective, but some of this is probably affecting you:

4-5 years is about long enough to get truly frustrated with Java/Struts/Spring/Hibernate/etc. and want to seek something more productive, there are a lot of alternate languages out there fighting for developer mindshare - and Java is *not* seen as a sexy choice.  I personally took great pleasure in switching to Scala, being finally available to avoid the great swathes of boilerplate and ugly, non-type-safe XML configuration files was like a breath of fresh air.

It's now a well established meme not to look for <insert-skillset-here> developers, but to just look for *good* developers, regardless of their experience in a particular skillset.  When I see a prospective client/employer who has a very specific pick-list, my thoughts (in no particular order) are:

- This job description was put together by HR (or the agency) from a bunch of buzzwords

- They're only after a junior developer, not someone with enough experience to stand up and question "Is struts really the best choice here?"

- I only see old technologies listed, the job is unlikely to be either challenging or interesting

- The specification doesn't actually describe what the job is, just that you want a vacuum-formed and easily replaceable "<insert-skillset-here> developer"

- That you think your challenges can be solved by someone who's done it all before, that there's no innovation required and nothing new to be seen in the job

- That it will be boring

At the very least, consider starting a small trial project in Scala (or clojure, python, groovy, haskell, etc.) and mention this as a "nice to have" skill in the specification.  It suddenly makes you look a whole lot more fresh and interesting.  Also, are you making any mention of agile practices in the job spec (BDD, pair programming, continuous deployment and such-like), as this seems to attract people as well.

 

[Steel City Phantom]

trust me, i would love to try scala or some of these newer languages.  but when you have a client cutting a 7 digit check and saying "i want it done in java", all i can really do about it is  cash the check and write it in java.  this client doesn't want any of the newer stuff because in his eyes, it hasn't had enough time in the market to mature and prove itself.  i can't fault him too much for that.

im really worried here because after this project is done i have 3 more that im going to be architecting, all in java.  two i may be able to do in scala, but the third, BIG one (possibly 8 digits by the time we are done) must be done in java.

ive been programming for 12 years now, 8 almost exclusively in java.  ive worked with some brilliant programmers along the way, im trying to recruit a few of them currently but they are tied up in other projects at the moment.  i find it hard to believe that these top end guys will pass nice money simply because the project isn't interesting or using the latest and greatest.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group.
To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.

[Kevin Wright]

On 25 August 2011 17:52, Steel City Phantom <scph...@gmail.com> wrote:

trust me, i would love to try scala or some of these newer languages.  but when you have a client cutting a 7 digit check and saying "i want it done in java", all i can really do about it is  cash the check and write it in java.  this client doesn't want any of the newer stuff because in his eyes, it hasn't had enough time in the market to mature and prove itself.  i can't fault him too much for that.

im really worried here because after this project is done i have 3 more that im going to be architecting, all in java.  two i may be able to do in scala, but the third, BIG one (possibly 8 digits by the time we are done) must be done in java.

ive been programming for 12 years now, 8 almost exclusively in java.  ive worked with some brilliant programmers along the way, im trying to recruit a few of them currently but they are tied up in other projects at the moment.  i find it hard to believe that these top end guys will pass nice money simply because the project isn't interesting or using the latest and greatest.

Java's also the name of a platform, it's sometimes a very revealing question to ask clients if they truly mean to dictate your language and programming style, or if they're mostly concerned with binaries they can throw at their tomcat installation and which will be understood by their ops team.

In some cases, it's not unkown for a skunkworks project to rename scala-library.jar as apache-closures.jar and deliver classes/jar files as they always have in the past :)

If stuck with code review, code escrow, or other such arrangements, then consider querying if all the *Tests* must be written in Java as well!  Even this kind of usage of another language will attract developers looking to expand their horizons...

None of this is specific to Scala, you can apply the same logic to Clojure, JRuby, Mirah, Jython, Jaskell, etc. It doesn't matter what language you choose, what I've witnessed is that *anything* which goes beyond Java is often an effective tool for attracting and retaining talent.

[phil swenson]

I don't think not knowing a specific framework you are using means
anyone is a "junior developer"

There are only about 294307030 different java frameworks to choose
from. Hire smart people who can cite some good coding principles.
Anyone decent can learn your framework choices.

BTW, if you are using struts 1, anyone worth their salt would avoid
the job like the plague :)

[Steel City Phantom]

have really good programmers gotten so vain that good money isn't enough but the project must also be interesting?

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Steel City Phantom <scph...@gmail.com> wrote:

have really good programmers gotten so vain that good money isn't enough but the project must also be interesting?

Vain? That's harsh.

If you are good at what you do, you will have several options to choose from, why not pick the one that is the best fit for you? I don't see anything wrong, much less vain, with this.

-- 

Cédric

[Kevin Wright]

On 25 August 2011 21:00, Steel City Phantom <scph...@gmail.com> wrote:

have really good programmers gotten so vain that good money isn't enough but the project must also be interesting?

Vain? No

Perhaps "jaded" would be a better choice of adjective

--
Kevin Wright
mail: kevin....@scalatechnology.com
gtalk / msn : kev.lee...@gmail.com

quora: http://www.quora.com/Kevin-Wright

google+: http://gplus.to/thecoda

twitter: @thecoda

vibe / skype: kev.lee.wright

steam: kev_lee_wright

"My point today is that, if we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as "lines produced" but as "lines spent": the current conventional wisdom is so foolish as to book that count on the wrong side of the ledger" ~ Dijkstra

[pforhan]

On Aug 25, 10:20 am, Steel City Phantom <scpha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...  so i have to ask, where are all the good java developers?

You may be looking for the wrong thing. Raw talent and ability to
learn are the only things that matter. There has to be a certain
spark in the person, that nerdy desire to figure out how things work,
to the point where they won't rest until they know it all. We hired a
fantastic developer with 1 year of experience on to a team brimming
with "senior" developers, and she outpaced developers 5 years her
senior.

Be careful, or the only developers who will qualify for your team are
the ones already there.

> ... is a 9-10 year experienced very seasoned

> java guy really demanding salaries north of 90K now or what?

I would hope so. I was around there at 10 years, and I'm a terrible
negotiator, and live in the midwest to boot.

Pat. Java developer of 13 years.

[ags]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Steel City Phantom <scph...@gmail.com> wrote:

have really good programmers gotten so vain that good money isn't enough but the project must also be interesting?

Vain? If there are options on the market that give both?!

Self- and market-aware.

Additionally, I do not agree with your Senior 'knows struts and spring' definition - to me, you're needing a Struts and Spring expert.

Somebody who just gets programming will figure this out anyway.

I have a real pleasure to have 2 ex-Ruby devs in what is mostly a Java project now. Their approach is really inspiring,

how many people will know how to strace a jvm to find out which file was missing because the exception was crap?

For me this is a Senior Dev all the way, even though he's been doing Java for the last 3 months. We review to kill

language quirks, but otherwise, it's a different level of living.

[Jon Kiparsky]

Do you really want someone who's bored working for you? I'd think that you're not just looking for someone who can do the job, you want someone who's excited about doing this particular job. I mean, it's be a drag if something more interesting came their way in the middle of your project, wouldn't it?

[Kevin Wright]

On 25 August 2011 23:10, Jon Kiparsky <jon.ki...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you really want someone who's bored working for you? I'd think that you're not just looking for someone who can do the job, you want someone who's excited about doing this particular job. I mean, it's be a drag if something more interesting came their way in the middle of your project, wouldn't it?

I think this is why banks pay so well.  Outside of certain specialist roles (e.g. quants) it's largely tedious and uninspiring work.

They want to shackle you economically, so you won't run off to some sexy new start-up once you realize the glacial pace at which they update their environment and find the bureaucratic red-tape slowing you to 1/3 of normal productivity levels.

 

If you want someone who cares, then either you pay through the nose for the privilege, or you give them something to care *about*.  "just another Struts website" makes a poor target for anyone's passion.

[Kirk]

>
> Additionally, I do not agree with your Senior 'knows struts and spring' definition - to me, you're needing a Struts and Spring expert.
> Somebody who just gets programming will figure this out anyway.

+1, I believe know Java, the JVM and a significant number APIs and frameworks very well. But you're clearly not looking for any of the skills that I have to offer and I doubt you'd hire me because of that.

Regards,
Kirk

[Ricky Clarkson]

Perhaps you need to ask the question "Why would programmers want to work for us?".  If the answer is only money, you're going to get the usual crowd who got into programming because it looked like a good move financially, and you probably do need to reject most of those.

Can you make the answer something else?

> have really good programmers gotten so vain that good money isn't enough but the project must also be interesting?

It's probably more about having control of their projects.  If your client dictates the programming language your company is probably a bottom feeder.  Especially on the JVM, where there aren't any technical reasons to mandate Java without at least a discussion.

--

[Casper Bang]

If your definition of a "senior developer", means one whose CV matches
your buzz word stream 100%, then good luck with that because I doubt
if you will find one. The Java ecosystem is so diverse and littered
with different technologies throughout the stack, that it makes little
sense to expect to find a perfect piece in the puzzle. Unless of
course you bring in consultants who specialized in a certain stack
(which is then usually old and/or proprietary, in which case you're
probably f..... anyway).

Chances are that a "senior developer" will observe patterns, honor
practices and recognize pitfalls, regardless the technology. In any
event, the good "senior developers" which may fit your bill, will
likely have reached a point in life where they no longer value
paycheck over happiness (freedom, inspiration, motivation...) and
mandated old technology is as sexy as a cold, wet and dirty kitchen
cloth/rag.

/Casper

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Casper Bang <caspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

If your definition of a "senior developer", means one whose CV matches
your buzz word stream 100%

My interpretation is that these interview questions are more geared toward finding someone that's exactly like you, which is a very common pitfall when interviewing.

The question "Do you read blogs?" is particularly telling, especially if you're going to count a negative response as going against hiring this person. I don't want to overly generalize, but I know a lot of brilliant developers who pretty much never read books, blogs or articles because they are simply too busy delivering awesome stuff.

Go ahead, ask the blog question, but make sure you analyze the response objectively, because even someone who doesn't read books might have something to teach you.

-- 

Cédric

[Casper Bang]

True, incl. the question "Do you have a blog", which can be seen as
replacing the CV (signals capacity and exposes capabilities). But even
that is unreliable, my personal hero, Anders Hejlsberg, has no blog!

On Aug 26, 7:26 am, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:

[paul....@gmail.com]

I imagine that most good developers get their jobs via word of mouth.
They generally don't need to send out CVs and traipse around a dozen
interviews.

I know that when I was part of a hiring committee, the vast majority
of candidates we got were very inexperienced and had trouble answering
basic Java syntax questions. This was in New York, so good luck in
Pittsburgh :/

There are so many frameworks out there that looking for a candidate
that can answer questions on your particular combination of them is
always going to be hard.

Instead, try to find great programmers. They will always be able to
get up to speed on new frameworks without any trouble.

Paul

[Russel Winder]

On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 22:26 -0700, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
[ . . . ]

> My interpretation is that these interview questions are more geared
> toward finding someone that's exactly like you, which is a very common
> pitfall when interviewing.

[ . . . ]

In the UK, and increasingly in the EU, the diversity legislation makes
it illegal to structure the hiring process so as to select only people
who fit a rigid "clone" type. Hiring people who can do the job you want
but possibly in ways you had not expected is positively encouraged!

However the City banks still tend to have a model of "have you worked
for a bank before, if not, goodbye". It is going to be interesting when
someone has the courage to use the diversity legislation against this
practice.

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel...@ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@russel.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder

[Karsten Silz]

On Aug 25, 10:03 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ <ced...@beust.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Steel City Phantom <scpha...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > have really good programmers gotten so vain that good money isn't enough
> > but the project must also be interesting?
>
> Vain? That's harsh.
>
> If you are good at what you do, you will have several options to choose
> from, why not pick the one that is the best fit for you? I don't see
> anything wrong, much less vain, with this.

I fully agree. All else being equal, I'd always pick the most
interesting project.

[Robert Casto]

I'm seeing a lot of negative against their hiring practices, but no one is answering the question. So here is the question again.

      "where have all the good guys gone?  is a 9-10 year experienced very seasoned java guy really demanding salaries north of 90K now or what?"

- All the good guys have jobs!
- Yes. Someone with that much experience and ability is going to want more than $90k. In fact, they are going to want stock options, bonuses, part ownership, etc.

I live in Cincinnati Ohio and you get 4 choices. Health care, banking, insurance, or consulting helping one of those 3. All of them pay the going salary which has been dropping steadily over the last decade. Where do really strong developers go for jobs? Either the East Coast with financial or research companies, or the West Coast to work with technology companies.

My friend, you live in the Midwest which is considered fly-over country. The cool jobs are on the coasts and if you must live in the Midwest, you will either be trying to get a telecommute job with someone on the coasts or move.

Don't get me wrong, there are tons of great developers living in the Midwest and live here either by choice or need. But the great ones have good jobs and are not going to leave unless there is a really good reason. People in the Midwest want more security than that. If all you can offer is a paycheck, you will have a hard time attracting good candidates. Developers are not normal employees who sit around and code. They are thinkers, problem solvers, and very well informed and connected. There are a lot fewer of these types of people than there is demand.

So what would I suggest?

Hire consultants and get the job done. Stop wasting time looking for someone who wants a career. You have problems, hire someone that can get you results. You will have to pay more to get the job done, but you can be really picky about their skills. They will get in there and work their magic and be happy about it. If you really like them and they like you, make them an offer. Just make sure that options is spelled out with the consulting company at the start.

Another option is to open up the work to telecommuting. There are lots of people who have skills but don't want to live in Pittsburgh. Pay for their travel and use conferencing to interact. Break away from the old ways and focus on what it takes to get the job done.

Yet another option is to outsource the work if you are able. There are too many things developers have to do today to be an expert in any one of them. Things change and it takes time to learn new technologies. Someone who is 9-10 years into Java is going to have a lot of old technology baggage with them. You might find someone who fits your needs today, but can't grow into the developer you need tomorrow.

Everyone keeps talking about your hiring practices but I think that is just a symptom of the business culture. The company needs to stop wasting time trying to find the perfect fit and just concentrate on getting the job done. Keep options open so if you find someone great you can make them an offer. In this way you get to try before you buy. And while they are earning and you are getting work done, both can see if things will be a good fit.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group.
To post to this group, send email to java...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.

--
Robert Casto
www.robertcasto.com
www.sellerstoolbox.com

[mgkimsal]

On Aug 25, 11:20 am, Steel City Phantom <scpha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I work out of Pittsburgh.  we have two world class universities about a half
> hour down the road.  Carnegie Mellon University's computer science
> department is one of the best in the world, and University of Pittsburgh
> isn't shabby either.  so i have to ask, where are all the good java
> developers?

<snip>

>
> where have all the good guys gone?  is a 9-10 year experienced very seasoned
> java guy really demanding salaries north of 90K now or what?
>

I should hope so. Many people I know with *5* years of Java
experience were getting close to that years ago.

You may truly have been 'jr' people through, but it sounds more like
people were more 'jr' for your particular environment. You may be
overlooking some value that these people might bring in the future.
If you project requirements change such that you need, for example,
someone with SOLR experience, and one of these candidates had it,
you'd be ahead of the game. You might even be 'jr' at SOLR in their
eyes (actually, by your own definition, you would be).

The "I can figure it out part" followed with "you're only jr - I'm not
paying you to figure it out" is extremely short sighted, imo. Are you
*never* having to learn anything new in your position? Nothing? If
not, that's sad (and indicative that maybe many people wouldn't want
to work there). And if you are, someone's paying *you* to figure it
out, and you're being a bit hypocritical. The question to ask is
"how quickly do I think this person can pick up new stuff?". If it's
a few days to be minimally productive, then a few weeks to be
contributing, that's acceptable in my view. If they have a track
record of taking months to pick up any new tech, then yeah, maybe not
a good fit. How much time have you wasted interviewing and looking
for the 'perfect fit' vs going with a good candidate? Perfect is the
enemy of the good.

If all your projects are such that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt
that you're just going to be using Spring version X and Java version Y
with no deviation or new requirements for the next Z years, I'm not
sure many people would want to work there - certainly not for 90k.

"we are paying good market rates for these guys". If people won't
work for you for that rate, by definition you're not paying "market
rate". *your* market may be different than the place on the other
side of town for a variety of factors.

[Andreas Johansson]

I agree with most of the others here that you are focusing on the
wrong thing if you want to hire great developers. If you think that a
great paycheck is the only incentive that is needed then only people
that consider that as the most important thing will show up for an
interview. Its not necessarily a bad thing but if you can't offer
anything else that's "interesting" it is. I would suggest you look for
passionate people that are into this job because they love what they
are doing (they may not match your profile 100%, but that is a good
sign) and giving them enough freedom to do their work without to much
disturbance. Focus on building a great team; eliminate as much
burochratic crap as possible, have fun and deliver excellent software.

You should watch this video on what motivates us if you haven't
already done so: http://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc

Good luck!

[Mike Wolfson]

I think technical interviews should not be the main criteria when hiring for a Java position.  You need to look for developers that have a proven track record of success, and people who have demonstrated they can learn, and adapt to different technologies.

You need to hire a developer, not someone who can do the specific things you are looking for (you will have a hard time finding someone available, that knows the exact things you are looking for, will work for the pay you are offering, is easy to work with, is comfortable in your work environment...).

You need to look for people who demonstrate a proficiency with technology, that will be able to handle whatever you throw at them.

Hire for ability, not for skillset.

[Alexey Zinger]

I would say that's the opposite of vanity.  If that's what's happening, it's not because they have something to prove by going after an "interesting" project -- it's because they're actually motivated by that kind of work, not just the money.

 

Alexey

---

From: Steel City Phantom <scph...@gmail.com>
To: java...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [The Java Posse] Where have all the Senior developers gone?

[Alexey Zinger]

Of course, all technical interviews aren't created equal.  My latest career move involved a few very serious technical talks, but most of it was pretty high level stuff -- drawing boxes on a white board, pseudo code, etc.  There was also a specific take-home (over email) exercise, which happened to be fun and I was glad to do it, as it got my brain juices flowing.  And then at the end of it all, I joined a team using a whole host of technologies, including a programming language, I'd never used before!  Not because I misrepresented myself or they screwed up, but because they thought I'd be a good fit for that project and that team.  And I'm having a blast learning new things, expanding my horizons, exchanging ideas, and enjoying my team members' company.  I've been on both sides of the interview table before and this is about as close to a perfect hiring process as I've seen.  I'm not tooting my own horn, but looking around this place, I'm surrounded by people who are driven and are good at what they do.  Sure no one's starving, but after a certain level, money matters little.  I'm just excited to come to work every day.

 

Alexey

---

From: Mike Wolfson <mwol...@gmail.com>
To: java...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: [The Java Posse] Re: Where have all the Senior developers gone?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/qW-aZYKsz98J.

[clay]

Years ago (early '90s), "years of experience" was an extremely
important metric when applying for jobs and academic credentials had
little relevance. Today, I think that has reversed. There is disdain
for "years of experience" and more people view university credentials
as a caste system (as that one candidate you quoted suggested). The
corollary to this is that people following a classical full time
programmer career path is much rarer.

There are plenty of experienced developers out there that I believe
fit what you are looking for, they are just harder to find. The
traditional resume and job board route often yields very disappointing
results for both parties.

On Aug 25, 10:42 am, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 4-5 years is about long enough to get truly frustrated with
Java/Struts/Spring/Hibernate/etc

Struts/Spring/Hibernate have all gone well past their peaks. Struts
has been a 100% legacy tool since 2005. Lumping Java in there isn't
fair. Java is completely fine as a general purpose language. I do
appreciate the cleaner syntax, functional support, and standard
library of Scala over Java, but Java is more than adequate for most
purposes. The JVM has better open source build/dependency/testing
infrastructure that the non-JVM alternatives I've used.