DART vs. GWT

[deepak chauhan]

One question is disturbing me from a long time. Why Google invented DART, when GWT is already there?

One reason I can see is that Google is planning to port DART in chrome browser and dreaming to support by all browser in future, which may not be feasible in case of Java based GWT.

But, don't you think that it will decrease the popularity of GWT and active activities on GWT?

I am asking this, because I have to decide between GWT and DART in a project.

--
Deepak Chauhan....

[Alan Chaney]

On 8/22/2012 8:57 AM, deepak chauhan wrote:
> One question is disturbing me from a long time. Why Google invented
> DART, when GWT is already there?

Google has invented (and discarded) all sorts of things which overlap
and are otherwise competitive. If this disturbs you, I'm afraid you are
in for a disturbing future, as I doubt that they are going to stop now.

>
> One reason I can see is that Google is planning to port DART in chrome
> browser and dreaming to support by all browser in future, which may
> not be feasible in case of Java based GWT.

Yes, well "dreaming" is the correct term here. According to the Dart
wiki, currently you have to build your own version of Chrome to even
test Dart, and that only runs on Snow Leopard and Linux.

All browsers *ALREADY* support Java GWT, because GWT compiles the
browser side to Javascript, an interpretive language supported by all
mainstream browsers including IE6-IE10, Chrome, Firefox, Opera etc.

>
> But, don't you think that it will decrease the popularity of GWT and
> active activities on GWT?

No. Well, not until thousands of developers are successfully deploying
Dart projects on all the available commercial browsers, and that is
years away, if ever.

>
> I am asking this, because I have to decide between GWT and DART in a
> project.

Well, if you want your project to be unusable by most people, then, by
all means, use Dart! However, if you want your project to be able to
deliver high-quality results to all available browsers, and your
development efforts to be supported by an extensive and very active
development community, then GWT may just be a better choice.

Alan



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[Thomas Broyer]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 6:15:42 PM UTC+2, Alan Chaney wrote:

According to the Dart
wiki, currently you have to build your own version of Chrome to even
test Dart, and that only runs on Snow Leopard and Linux.

I don't know where you looked at but the docs are OK http://www.dartlang.org/dartium/, Dartium binaries are available for Windows, Linux and Mac: http://www.dartlang.org/downloads.html

 

All browsers *ALREADY* support Java GWT, because GWT compiles the
browser side to Javascript, an interpretive language supported by all
mainstream browsers including IE6-IE10, Chrome, Firefox, Opera etc.

All browsers *ALREADY*  support Dart, because Dart compiles to JS too! http://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart2js/

[Alan Chaney]

On 8/22/2012 9:23 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote:

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 6:15:42 PM UTC+2, Alan Chaney wrote:

According to the Dart
wiki, currently you have to build your own version of Chrome to even
test Dart, and that only runs on Snow Leopard and Linux.

I don't know where you looked at but the docs are OK http://www.dartlang.org/dartium/, Dartium binaries are available for Windows, Linux and Mac: http://www.dartlang.org/downloads.html

Yes, sorry, my mistake. I got the instructions from:

http://code.google.com/p/dart/wiki/BuildingDartium

"These are instructions to check out and build a modified version of Chromium that embeds the DartVM. We currently build on Mac OS X (Snow Leopard and XCode 3.2) and Linux."

However, my point is still valid. Support for Dart is in its infancy, and GWT is a mature and well-supported project.

Alan

 

All browsers *ALREADY* support Java GWT, because GWT compiles the
browser side to Javascript, an interpretive language supported by all
mainstream browsers including IE6-IE10, Chrome, Firefox, Opera etc.

All browsers *ALREADY*  support Dart, because Dart compiles to JS too! http://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart2js/

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[Arash]

I have no experience with DART but GWT is already in a very stable and usable state practically. Unfortunately, I can't help but share the same fear though since the community is getting less responsive or at least the experts in the group. I recently have posted the following two issues on GWT group and I have yet to receive a reply on any of them. This is where the group was very active and responsive in the past years and recently they just seem to be less involved. 

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/google-web-toolkit/d9gZMff7RlI

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/google-web-toolkit/_xYVPg1xVG4

Thanks,

Arash

[Thomas Broyer]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:57:42 PM UTC+2, deepak chauhan wrote:

One question is disturbing me from a long time. Why Google invented DART, when GWT is already there?

See Alan's answer, and http://www.dartlang.org/slides/2012/06/io12/Dart-A-Modern-Web-Language.pdf

 

One reason I can see is that Google is planning to port DART in chrome browser and dreaming to support by all browser in future, which may not be feasible in case of Java based GWT.

But, don't you think that it will decrease the popularity of GWT and active activities on GWT?

No:

• popularity: has CoffeeScript and/or Node.js had any impact in GWT's popularity? I don't think so.
• active activities: activities on GWT are no longer lead by Google only, so even if Google's activities on GWT decreased (and I don't think they will, quite the contrary actually; FYI, they're recruiting), it wouldn't mean that "general activities" would. There's the steering committee, there's the community.

I am asking this, because I have to decide between GWT and DART in a project.

Dart is young and still not mature (only reached its first milestone) , things will continue to change under your feet and break your code.

AFAICT, Dart has no equivalent to widgets and tools like GWT-RPC/RequestFactory, UiBinder, etc. It's much more "to the metal".

Dart's generated JS also does not support IE: http://www.dartlang.org/docs/technical-overview/#howtouse (yes, I lied when replying to Alan), maybe it'll work in IE10 (maybe not).

I'm not preaching for GWT though, only trying to be objective here. Dart looks great and some people have already deployed web apps in production using Dart. It really depends on your project (your needs, your deadline, etc.), and of course your skills.

[Thomas Broyer]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 6:36:53 PM UTC+2, Arash wrote:

I have no experience with DART but GWT is already in a very stable and usable state practically. Unfortunately, I can't help but share the same fear though since the community is getting less responsive or at least the experts in the group. I recently have posted the following two issues on GWT group and I have yet to receive a reply on any of them. This is where the group was very active and responsive in the past years and recently they just seem to be less involved. 

You know, it's vacation time in many parts of the world ;-)

I'm just back from 3 weeks of vacations with limited connectivity (smartphone only)

[deepak chauhan]

Dart2js is same as the GWT compiler compiles the Java code into javascript. 

Again, I am copying pasting few lines from my origination message to answer the original problem.

Why Google invented DART, when GWT is already there? 

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[deepak chauhan]

Thanks Thomas :)

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Deepak Chauhan....

[deepak chauhan]

Thanks Thomas for your very satisfactory answers.Do you know the expected final release date of GWT 2.5?

--
Deepak Chauhan....

[Joseph Lust]

Frankly the only issue GWT has, which Dart likely does not, is that it requires intelligent Java developers. You know, that language that is all strict and requires you to really understand what you're doing. Generics, oh my!

Script kiddies don't much care for XML, unit testing frameworks, Aria, UiBinder, i18n, hyper optmized JS and the like. To them these are hoops. I would not expect frameworks that really are best in class at making RIA's to be the 'most popular' for this reason. And it's not just the kiddies. To others like seasoned JSP developers, many of the concepts are still new in GWT, and why would they want to change?

So I'd never expect GWT to become super popular or to surpass PHP/jQuery mashups. But I can say from experience that in the enterprise space, where these features are sought afters, it is continuing to gain popularity. We've got 70 GWT devs in my office alone.

Sincerely,

Joseph 

[Brian Slesinsky]

We don't have any date yet due to distractions and other priorities, but we hope to do it soon.

[b0b]

On Wednesday, 22 August 2012 17:57:42 UTC+2, deepak chauhan wrote:

One question is disturbing me from a long time. Why Google invented DART, when GWT is already there?

To have one more project to can in a few months/years, instead of puting all resources behind GWT.

[Ryan Shillington]

Google is an incubator.  They throw a lot of "darts" at the wall to see what sticks (pun intended).  When you have 10 irons in the fire, one or 2 of them are bound to glow hot.  

There's no reason to believe that Dart will win over GWT in the next 2-3 years if you're building something of modest complexity.  My company (onlyinsight.com) is a start-up.  We use wordpress for our main site (so basically PHP) which is super-simple (5-10 pages).  For our first big real product, with half a million lines of code, we're using GWT (and wouldn't consider Ruby/PHP).  Ruby/Rails/PHP to me is like a chainsaw - it's super-easy to cut down trees with, but it's just as easy to cut your arm off.  You don't want a million lines of a scripting language.

Ryan

[dhoffer]

+1 Very well said.

[Chris Lercher]

About Dart:

- I really (!) hope that Dart will succeed.

- Ideally, Dart would even become the new JavaScript alternative in all browsers (however, AFAIK a few browser vendors have signaled, that this ain't gonna happen). If not, then it could maybe still be successful with dart2js.

About GWT:

- GWT allows to code in Java for the client side, which is perfect, if you already use Java on the server side.

- There is no significant amount of existing Dart code for the server side, so Dart does not have that advantage.

Conclusion:

"GWT + Dart" would be such an awesome combination: GWT compiling Java to Dart. And then Dart to JS only if necessary.

- This would require changing GWT internals, 

- but it wouldn't require changing the GWT API and programming techniques much (except for low level JSNI and JSO) - remember, that a lot of the GWT API is about manipulating the DOM (which stays the same no matter if the underlying language is JS or Dart), handling browser events, ...

- As long as you want to work with Java on the server side, it's a good idea to use GWT - otherwise you'd have to duplicate common parts of your code for the server (Java) and client side (Dart) - like in the medieval days before GWT. (I hope we'll never have to fall back to that situation.)

Alternative:

The alternative would be that Dart also succeeds on the server side, completely replacing Java. This is rather unlikely, but if things like O/R mapping, fully-fledged IDEs, and anything of value that Java provides is available in Dart someday, plus if it provides any real advantage over Java, then I'm the first one to switch completely to Dart. Then we wouldn't need GWT anymore, and Dart would probably adopt all useful GWT features. (And it should be straightforward to port existing GWT code to Dart.)

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:57:42 PM UTC+2, deepak chauhan wrote:

[Kara Marie Rawson]

umm no.

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[Richard Eng]

I've been trying to understand the reasons GWT has not become a widespread JS alternative. It has lost a great deal of mindshare; it's pretty much a niche market now. Dart appears to be Google's second crack at the whip (possibly learning from GWT's mistakes?).

There is very little discussion on the web about these reasons. Is it really because of Java's reputation for being complicated and difficult?

Or could the elephant in the room be issues surrounding compiling to JS? If so, this would be the same obstacle Dart faces.

So, why did GWT not take the world by storm?

[Paul Robinson]

I don't have an answer for you, but here's an interesting description of how Google's Inbox uses Java as a base for building Android, web (via gwt) and iOS (via j2objc) apps. Three separate native apps sharing about two thirds of the source code.

http://gmailblog.blogspot.nl/2014/11/going-under-hood-of-inbox.html?m=1

It's hard to see how Dart could do that.

Paul

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[Ümit Seren]

I guess it is largely related to the fact that it's Java and most people in web-development come from the Javascript side of things and for them Java is much more verbose than Javascript (this will change when GWT supports the Java 8 syntax). 

Dart has basically the same problem. People are asking why Dart hasn't yet replaced Javascript yet although as a language it combines the powerful features from different languages (Java, C#, smalltalk, etc).

Javascript is not going anywhere and is becomming more and more the new assembler language/intermediate (IL)/VM (whatever you want to call it) of the web. 

Even Javascript itself can nowadays be compiled down to a simpler form of Javascript (Traceur ES6 -> ES5).

  

A lot of high level languages have emerged that try to solve the pitfalls of Javascript (Dart, GWT, Typescript, Atscript). You can even compile C++ down to Javascript but none of them will replace Javascript.

I think future Javascript versions might evolve more towards the direction of Typescript/Atscript and solve some of the issues.  

[Richard Eng]

I believe you're right. A lot of people, myself included, are turned off by Java. (It's no coincidence that Java is one of the most despised languages in the world, along with PHP, Visual Basic, C++, and JavaScript, with Perl often mentioned, too.) Java is too "heavy" a language, and it is by no means a "fun" language. (I personally favour Go, Python, and Smalltalk.)

For both GWT and Dart project, Google should've focused on a much simpler and more elegant language. Google should not have tried to appeal to Java developers. Making Dart Java-like may well be the nail in the coffin.

I agree that JS is the 'assembler' language of the web. Given that, I am drawn to Amber Smalltalk...

[Blake McBride]

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Thomas Broyer <t.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:57:42 PM UTC+2, deepak chauhan wrote:

One question is disturbing me from a long time. Why Google invented DART, when GWT is already there?

See Alan's answer, and http://www.dartlang.org/slides/2012/06/io12/Dart-A-Modern-Web-Language.pdf

Experience has taught me that, although the quality of technology plays a role in technological choices, politics and marketing always trumps it.  (I.e. original Intel processors over Motorola, Windows vs. Mac, Unix, or Linux, Flash vs. HTML, etc.)

GWT is a really, really good tool.  Google was devoting a lot of effort into it _until_ Oracle sued Google over Java (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_v._Google).  Now Google just wants to get away from Oracle's purview.  Switching from Java to Dart does that.  Of course, while you are at it, you can throw in some other things from lessons you've learned _and_ to make the case not look like politics.  You can rationalize all day about it, but that is the reason.

With all the competition and various technological trade-offs, it is anyone's guess whether Dart will make it or not.  GWT works real well.  It is up to the community to keep it alive.

Blake

[Blake McBride]

I have to add that Oracle suing Google over Java when Google was such a huge proponent of Java has got to be one of the industry's stupidest moves.  As Oracle makes one stupid move after another concerning Java, and couple that with Microsoft open sourcing C# and .NET, things will surely get interesting over the next few years.

Blake

[Guillaume Rebesche]

I don't see the relation between the Oracle vs Google case, and GWT.

Oracle vs Google is about Android and has nothing to do with GWT.

And I don't think Google is "switching from Java to Dart".

Guillaume

[David]

As usual, history repeats itself. Microsoft sued Sun over Java, the applet died. Oracle sued Google over Java... there goes GWT.

But in reality, all Google did was separate GWT from the company too guard itself against expensive litigation. I think the GWT project is doing quite well in OpenSource. Java 8 fixes quite a lot of the verbosity of Java. Many cool languages are nothing else but cool, nice for small projects, but often they need a rewrite to get it to scale.

[Marko]

On Monday, November 24, 2014 1:37:17 AM UTC+1, Guillaume Rebesche wrote:

I don't see the relation between the Oracle vs Google case, and GWT.

Oracle vs Google is about Android and has nothing to do with GWT.

 

GWT - just like Android - uses Java APIs in Emulated JRE. So if Supreme Court decides that APIs are indeed copyrightable, we will also have copyright problems inside GWT...

If I would be Google, I would put GWT into open source and just maintain the technology until the case is closed in Supreme Court...

Marko