Sensing the presence of God

[Roger Clough]

According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One
(ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I
sense God's presence.


[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/9/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

[Telmo Menezes]

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

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[Roger Clough]

Hi Telmo Menezes

In the Christian tradition, Satan.

In the Platonic tradition (which Bruno knows
much better than I do), I think the Demiurge.

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/9/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Telmo Menezes
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-09, 07:26:45
Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

[Bruno Marchal]

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote:

>
>
> According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from
> the One
> (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or
> beauty, I
> sense God's presence.

I can be OK with this, but this will not convince an atheist, who will
tell you that if "beauty" is god, then he believes in God, but that is
not the God he is talking about when declaring himself an atheist.

An atheist is just someone who does not believe in Santa Claus. Really.

Some people suggests that comp is two times more atheistic than
atheism, because with comp, not only the literal Christian God does
not exist, but the myth or a primitive material universe has to be
abandoned too. I disagree because comp invite us firmly to come back
to the scientific notion of God (transcendental truth at the root of
everything, faith in reincarnation).

Science is always based on a religion. Scientist who pretend to have
no religion are person who take so much their religion for granted
that they cannot doubt it, and so becomes pseudo-priest of some sort.
It is often the case with the (weak) materialist (as almost all people
are still today).

Bruno

>
>
> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
> 1/9/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>

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>

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem). Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency) gives an evolutionary advantage. Like the true Dt, Bf can be used to prove correct arithmetical propositions, to shorten the proofs of non trivial propositions, etc. I am able to conceive, some day, that all axioms of infinity are of this type (but this is a strong statement).

So basically the hate, the falsehood and the ugliness comes from their local evolutionary advantage. A bit like robbing a bank can be justified, when the goal is to make money locally and quickly. A bit like when the "first animal" decided to feed on a vegetal, which is a form of molecules stealing, at some level. Then other animals steal the molecules of those vegetarians, and so on. This has generated the evolutionary heuristic: to eat or to be eaten, and sometimes that hurts.

In the main line ...

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

On 09 Jan 2013, at 14:29, Roger Clough wrote:

> Hi Telmo Menezes
>
> In the Christian tradition, Satan.
>
> In the Platonic tradition (which Bruno knows
> much better than I do), I think the Demiurge.

Platonists are not so good on the bad, and the bad is really a complex
problem. I suggest an answer in my post to Telmo.

To give you a "bad" example, Plotinus explains that the bad occurs
only to bad people. It warns that if you rape a woman, you will be
punished. How: by becoming a woman in your next life, and by being
raped.

This is unfortunate, as it might gives the idea that if a woman
attracts you up to the point you will rape her, it is OK, as it can
only mean that you are raping some "guy" who raped a woman in his/her
preceding life! But this will only justify and perpetuate the bad.

It is not entirely nonsensical, and may be Plotinus was to quick. It
can be related to the buddhist notion of karma, but here too, a danger
remains to make sick and miserable people, if that was not enough,
also feeling guilty. It leads to the idea that whatever bad happens to
you comes from bad thing you did in a preceding life, and this means
that it is always your fault. Basically, the idea of sin comes from
this too. But this can be used by people who want to manipulate you,
as history illustrates.
With the explanation suggested to Telmo, I would say the bad exists
due to its logical closeness to the good. Also good can be a
protagorean virtue, meaning that if you try to define the good in some
normative way, then the bad will be guarantied to happen.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Telmo Menezes]

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

That makes sense with my empirical understanding of realty: there are things that I find beautiful and others find ugly. Hate groups feel that they just have a correct understanding of reality, and so on.

 

Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency) gives an evolutionary advantage. Like the true Dt, Bf can be used to prove correct arithmetical propositions, to shorten the proofs of non trivial propositions, etc. I am able to conceive, some day, that all axioms of infinity are of this type (but this is a strong statement).

So basically the hate, the falsehood and the ugliness comes from their local evolutionary advantage. A bit like robbing a bank can be justified, when the goal is to make money locally and quickly. A bit like when the "first animal" decided to feed on a vegetal, which is a form of molecules stealing, at some level. Then other animals steal the molecules of those vegetarians, and so on. This has generated the evolutionary heuristic: to eat or to be eaten, and sometimes that hurts.

Ok - at the evolutionary level of abstraction.

[John Mikes]

Dear Bruno,

you know we agree (mostly), you wrote lately that you are "more" agnostic than myself - what I doubt since your "religion" includes numbers and math(logic)  and mine not. 

What I take for "granted" is our limited capability to learn them all about the infinite complexity of which we formulate a 'model' of the (already) knowable - as adjusted to our present level mind-function.

There is 'evidence' of a steady growing of such knowledge over the millennia of (human) enlightenment. There is  N O 

evidence about it's qualia - i.e. that we CAN comprehend any facet of that infinite complexity. We think in 'facts' and their factual(?) relations what may be absolutely false. 

I am not an atheist: I just do not fall for hearsay. I say it in all honesty that "I dunno". Nor am I a materialist - consider the physical world (and conventional sciences) figments how our human mind (??) explains the not-understood phenomena we get a glimps of. You do it by math: an unexplained arithmetics, I do not do it at all. 

The best for the New Year

John M

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote:

According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One
(ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I
sense God's presence.

I can be OK with this, but this will not convince an atheist, who will tell you that if "beauty" is god, then he believes in God, but that is not the God he is talking about when declaring himself an atheist.

An atheist is just someone who does not believe in Santa Claus. Really.

Some people suggests that comp is two times more atheistic than atheism, because with comp, not only the literal Christian God does not exist, but the myth or a primitive material universe has to be abandoned too. I disagree because comp invite us firmly to come back to the scientific notion of God (transcendental truth at the root of everything, faith in reincarnation).

Science is always based on a religion. Scientist who pretend to have no religion are person who take so much their religion for granted that they cannot doubt it, and so becomes pseudo-priest of some sort. It is often the case with the (weak) materialist (as almost all people are still today).

Bruno

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/9/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

Why?

I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.

This can be made more precise in "model theory", or "set theory" where we can define "absolute" and "relative".

That makes sense with my empirical understanding of realty: there are things that I find beautiful and others find ugly. Hate groups feel that they just have a correct understanding of reality, and so on.

I am OK with this, except on elementary arithmetic. You need this just to define "formalism", "machine", etc. But even such kind of truth cannot be communicate as such, unless we first agree on some axioms, and on what axioms are.

 

Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency) gives an evolutionary advantage. Like the true Dt, Bf can be used to prove correct arithmetical propositions, to shorten the proofs of non trivial propositions, etc. I am able to conceive, some day, that all axioms of infinity are of this type (but this is a strong statement).

So basically the hate, the falsehood and the ugliness comes from their local evolutionary advantage. A bit like robbing a bank can be justified, when the goal is to make money locally and quickly. A bit like when the "first animal" decided to feed on a vegetal, which is a form of molecules stealing, at some level. Then other animals steal the molecules of those vegetarians, and so on. This has generated the evolutionary heuristic: to eat or to be eaten, and sometimes that hurts.

Ok - at the evolutionary level of abstraction.

Well, OK. It still hurts, and the hurting feeling seems to be something absolute. We cannot doubt a feeling of headache, even if we can doubt the primary existence of the head.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

Dear John,

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:30, John Mikes wrote:

you know we agree (mostly), you wrote lately that you are "more" agnostic than myself - what I doubt since your "religion" includes numbers and math(logic)  and mine not. 

My "religion" (I prefer to say: my favorite working hypothesis) is that "we are machine" (to be short). But this cannot even be explained if you doubt things like 43 is prime, etc.

Then we can try refuting that theory, especially that I expain that the physical laws are theorems in that theory.

I will be franc John, I have no clue by what you mean when you say that numbers are not part of your religion. 

We agree on the deep, I think. We disagree on the amount of agreement between us. I think it is greater than you think :)

What I take for "granted" is our limited capability to learn them all about the infinite complexity of which we formulate a 'model' of the (already) knowable - as adjusted to our present level mind-function.

Terms like "limited", "capacity" are more complex to me than 2+2=4. I can hardly imagine an explanation of "limited capacity" which does not rely on natural numbers relations or something "Turing equivalent".

There is 'evidence' of a steady growing of such knowledge over the millennia of (human) enlightenment. There is  N O 

evidence about it's qualia - i.e. that we CAN comprehend any facet of that infinite complexity. We think in 'facts' and their factual(?) relations what may be absolutely false. 

I am not an atheist: I just do not fall for hearsay. I say it in all honesty that "I dunno". Nor am I a materialist - consider the physical world (and conventional sciences) figments how our human mind (??) explains the not-understood phenomena we get a glimps of. You do it by math: an unexplained arithmetics, I do not do it at all. 

It is nice to recognize our ignorance, which can only be abyssal (probably so with comp). But this is not a reason to try theories, as this is the only chance to be shown wrong, and to learn a little bit. If you don't do it at all, which is quite wise, you get the empty theory, which is irrefutable, but explains too much. I am just *trying* to get an idea of what is going on.

The best for the New Year

?

I thought you were not believing in arithmetic :)

Best wishes,

Bruno

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[John Clark]

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I sense God's presence.

That's nice, but how do you know (and more important how do we know) if you are sensing a omnipotent being who created the universe or if you are sensing a bad potato that you ate yesterday? 

I've never had a mystical experience, but if I did I'd have the courtesy to keep my mouth shut about it if the evidence for its validity was available only to myself. Even if I had discovered a new fact about the nature of reality there would be no way to communicate the truth about it to others. And even if you are certain about it you can't be certain that you should be certain about it, because you can be 100% sure about something and still be dead wrong, in fact it's very common, just look at Muslim suicide bombers.   

  John K Clark

[meekerdb]

On 1/9/2013 7:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One
>> (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I
>> sense God's presence.
>
> I can be OK with this, but this will not convince an atheist, who will tell you that if
> "beauty" is god, then he believes in God, but that is not the God he is talking about
> when declaring himself an atheist.
>
> An atheist is just someone who does not believe in Santa Claus. Really.
>
> Some people suggests that comp is two times more atheistic than atheism, because with
> comp, not only the literal Christian God does not exist, but the myth or a primitive
> material universe has to be abandoned too. I disagree because comp invite us firmly to
> come back to the scientific notion of God (transcendental truth at the root of
> everything, faith in reincarnation).
>
> Science is always based on a religion.

?? Surely you mean a scientific theory is always based on a "religion" by which you
probably mean some basic assumptions. But it doesn't follow that science as a whole is
based on a (singular?) religion.

So what's your religion, Bruno? What are its tenets that you believe on faith? Who are
the adherents?

Brent

[Roger Clough]

Hi Bruno Marchal

 

Could the incompleteness theorem simply be an artifact of

wrong-headedly trying to reach the necessary from the realm of contingency ?

 

That is, trying synthesize a system, whereas it is actually already complete

if deduced analytically ?

 

 

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]

1/10/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Bruno Marchal

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-09, 12:10:16

Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: G锟絛el's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

Why?

I don't think so. G锟絛el's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Roger Clough]

Hi Bruno Marchal

Could it be -- borrowing from Leibniz's Theodicy-- that in Heaven,
all of the forms are perfect, as, say, prisms in a display cabinet,
but when you spill the cabinet and try to fit the perfect prisms
back together down here on the floor (in this contingent world),
there are gaps and misfits ?

In other words, from energy (Heaven) to entropy (Earth).

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/10/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-09, 10:41:37

[Roger Clough]

Hi Bruno Marchal

Atheists are those that refuse to worship the false gods they invent.
They look for truth and untruth from the logic of analogies
instead of seeking the Living God of the Bible, who isn't an analogy.

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/10/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-09, 10:20:25

Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

[Alberto G. Corona]

It would say that they worship, and worship very hard. But his worship does adopt different forms. All of them primitive, since their impulses are not moderated by an assumption of tradition, so they lack the knowledge of best practices due to previous failures. It is necessary to take into account that a God in the primitive sense hansn´t to be a transcendental. It may be intramundane. It can be an ordinary person. An Emperor for example. 

Or a actor. When people tell about Hollywood as the Olympus of the stars he does no know up to what level this analogy, that comes from the same locations of the brain than in a ancient greek worshipper of Zeus is not an analogy, but an identity.  I do not mix things. People mix them alone because all of them are part of the some single experience, historically perceived in different ways.

By what I said in Robotic truth, worship and sacrifices are unavoidable in a social being who has memory and cooperates. worship is the public proclamation of admiration and the commitment to follow a personal entity. 

The sacrifices are the seal that certifies the adherence of the group principles in the eyes of the fellows. Just like a insurance company demand entry , exit and periodic fees.  The sacrifice can be as subtle and venial as to mock rival groups in a public forum, but lacking a transcendental umbrella that embraces humanity, dignity and other things that give meaning and security in life, invariably the tribal cults take care of the whole of the person, and this can not be accomplished without higher payments. 

And, friends, I have to say that protection from the higher dangers, demands the higher prices in the catalog of your insurance company.  That´s why bloody offenses demand blood as sacrifice.  The  growing quantity of youngters enlisted in urban Gangsta knows that well, and show how our societies are being degraded. The corrupt mafias that dominate each sector of the economy know it too. Every group of well organized delinquents need a cult to the leader and his set of ideas. Sometimes with supernatural powers. for example, the ability to predict global climate,  or capable of creating wealth by printing paper money.

In this sense christianism gives a freedom from religion. The God that sacrifices for ourselves once and forever instead of us sacrificing for it periodicaly seems like made to liberate us from the deeds of primitive religion, that

2013/1/10 Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net>

--
Alberto.

[Alberto G. Corona]

I meant:

That´s why PROTECTION FROM bloody offenses demand blood as sacrifice

2013/1/10 Alberto G. Corona <agoc...@gmail.com>

That´s why bloody offenses demand blood as sacrifice

--
Alberto.

[Bruno Marchal]

On 09 Jan 2013, at 19:37, John Clark wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I sense God's presence.

That's nice, but how do you know (and more important how do we know) if you are sensing a omnipotent being who created the universe or if you are sensing a bad potato that you ate yesterday? 

Or the devil imitating God to fail you. Yes.

I've never had a mystical experience, but if I did I'd have the courtesy to keep my mouth shut about it if the evidence for its validity was available only to myself. Even if I had discovered a new fact about the nature of reality there would be no way to communicate the truth about it to others. And even if you are certain about it you can't be certain that you should be certain about it, because you can be 100% sure about something and still be dead wrong, in fact it's very common, just look at Muslim suicide bombers.   

OK. Again this is a theorem in the comp theory. The wise remains mute (on the spiritual matter). But the machine can express some part in the conditional way, like she cannot prove "non provable (my-consistency), but she can prove "if I am consistent then non provable (my-consistency). Likewise, a part of the "spiritual truth" can be proved in the form "if comp then ...".

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

Yes it is. Science is based on our faith in some "stable" reality.
This is at the root of both Aristotle and Plato Theology.

>
> So what's your religion, Bruno?

I believe that there is something.

> What are its tenets that you believe on faith?

That there is something different from me.



> Who are the adherents?

The non-solipsistic people. The belief in others is faith, even if
partially build in in our mammal brain. This makes us hard to
understand that it is faith, but with some work and introspection you
can get the point. It is very elementary and widespread religion, and
then with comp, it specializes a bit into a doctrine close to Plato,
Plotinus, and most mystics.

Bruno

[Bruno Marchal]

On 10 Jan 2013, at 13:30, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

 

Could the incompleteness theorem simply be an artifact of

wrong-headedly trying to reach the necessary from the realm of contingency ?

It is as much an artifact than the fact that there is an infinity of primes. Gödel's theorem concerns all sound machines or theories (or relative numbers). 

Note also that incompleteness is also a quasi-direct consequence of Church thesis. 

I often give the proof, and that might happen again :)

Bruno

 

That is, trying synthesize a system, whereas it is actually already complete

if deduced analytically ?

 

 

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]

1/10/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Bruno Marchal

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-09, 12:10:16

Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: G鰀el's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

Why?

I don't think so. G鰀el's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

On 10 Jan 2013, at 13:46, Roger Clough wrote:

> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> Could it be -- borrowing from Leibniz's Theodicy-- that in Heaven,
> all of the forms are perfect,

Like perfect crime. You can say that with perfect means definitely
true or false.

> as, say, prisms in a display cabinet,
> but when you spill the cabinet and try to fit the perfect prisms
> back together down here on the floor (in this contingent world),
> there are gaps and misfits ?

OK. But I would say that with comp we are in heaven, but we forget it
and and then "matter" will give the room for gaps and misfits, but
also suffering and frustration, insatisfaction, etc.

>
> In other words, from energy (Heaven) to entropy (Earth).

Hmm... Energy is basically Matter, or Information. For the
neoplatonist that's more like hell than heaven. By chance, it is also
a temporary illusion (for them).

But OK, the emanation of the intelligible, and the soul and matter
from the one, and the dual conversion can be related to what you say,
perhaps.

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 10 Jan 2013, at 13:52, Roger Clough wrote:

> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> Atheists are those that refuse to worship the false gods they invent.

OK.

> They look for truth and untruth from the logic of analogies
> instead of seeking the Living God of the Bible, who isn't an analogy.

Here I can't follow you, as I don't believe more in the Bible (and
which bible?) than in Alice in Wonderland (one of the deepest
spiritual text in my opinion)

My willingness to attribute a reference to God in the bible is
proportional to the idea that the bible is not a sacred text.

Even formal arithmetic has different non-isomorphic interpretations
(yet with a common standard part), so the bible is too much prose to
see it as a serious reference, with univocal interpretation. I honor
the bible as an historical important text(s) in the human development,
but I would not refer to it as "serious or factually convincing
theology".

>> To post to this group, send email to everything-
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[meekerdb]

But it's only that *she* cannot prove her consistency.  Her consistency may be provable by someone other machine - it's not 'unprovable' in an absolute sense.

Brent

Likewise, a part of the "spiritual truth" can be proved in the form "if comp then ...".

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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[John Clark]

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net> wrote:

> Atheists are those that refuse to worship the false gods they invent. They look for truth and untruth from the logic of analogies instead of seeking the Living God of the Bible,

Atheists are those that refuse to worship any God because all of them are not only false they are silly. Atheists look for truth from logic and mathematics and scientific experimentation and not from the myths of a primitive bronze age tribe of 3000 years ago because they are imbecilic.

It's really amazing that well into the 21'th century so many otherwise intelligent people can take a really really REALLY stupid book like the Bible seriously. I guess that childhood brainwashing usually does hold for a lifetime and it turns out that the Jesuits, those masters of psychological conditioning, were correct when they said "Give me a child for his first seven years and I'll give you the man".

  John K Clark

[meekerdb]

On 1/10/2013 8:10 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
> On 09 Jan 2013, at 22:03, meekerdb wrote:
>
>> On 1/9/2013 7:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>> On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One
>>>> (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I
>>>> sense God's presence.
>>>
>>> I can be OK with this, but this will not convince an atheist, who will tell you that
>>> if "beauty" is god, then he believes in God, but that is not the God he is talking
>>> about when declaring himself an atheist.
>>>
>>> An atheist is just someone who does not believe in Santa Claus. Really.
>>>
>>> Some people suggests that comp is two times more atheistic than atheism, because with
>>> comp, not only the literal Christian God does not exist, but the myth or a primitive
>>> material universe has to be abandoned too. I disagree because comp invite us firmly to
>>> come back to the scientific notion of God (transcendental truth at the root of
>>> everything, faith in reincarnation).
>>>
>>> Science is always based on a religion.
>>
>> ?? Surely you mean a scientific theory is always based on a "religion" by which you
>> probably mean some basic assumptions. But it doesn't follow that science as a whole is
>> based on a (singular?) religion.
>
> Yes it is. Science is based on our faith in some "stable" reality. This is at the root
> of both Aristotle and Plato Theology.

Ok, I can buy that. It even assumes that we can know about reality in at least some
approximate and incomplete sense.

>
>
>
>>
>> So what's your religion, Bruno?
>
> I believe that there is something.
>
>
>
>
>> What are its tenets that you believe on faith?
>
> That there is something different from me.

But you have evidence for that - if you can figure out what is meant by "me".

>
>
>
>> Who are the adherents?
>
> The non-solipsistic people. The belief in others is faith, even if partially build in in
> our mammal brain. This makes us hard to understand that it is faith, but with some work
> and introspection you can get the point. It is very elementary and widespread religion,
> and then with comp, it specializes a bit into a doctrine close to Plato, Plotinus, and
> most mystics.

Brent
I'm a Solipist, and I must say I'm surprised there aren't more of us.
-- letter to Bertrand Russell

[Telmo Menezes]

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

Why?

I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.

"Local" was a poor choice of words. A better term for what I meant would be "subjective to the machine". Taking the point of view of the machine: if it can't know certain truths about itself, how can it know any absolute truth? Apart from algebra, since rejecting it would invalidate Godel's theorem?

[Roger Clough]

Hi Bruno Marchal

 

OK.

 

 

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]

1/11/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Bruno Marchal

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-10, 12:04:54

Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

On 10 Jan 2013, at 13:30, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

 

Could the incompleteness theorem simply be an artifact of

wrong-headedly trying to reach the necessary from the realm of contingency ?

It is as much an artifact than the fact that there is an infinity of primes. G锟斤拷del's theorem concerns all sound machines or theories (or relative numbers). 

Note also that incompleteness is also a quasi-direct consequence of Church thesis. 

I often give the proof, and that might happen again :)

Bruno

 

That is, trying synthesize a system, whereas it is actually already complete

if deduced analytically ?

 

 

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]

1/10/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Bruno Marchal

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-09, 12:10:16

Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: G锟絛el's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

Why?

I don't think so. G锟絛el's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

On 10 Jan 2013, at 19:30, meekerdb wrote:

On 1/10/2013 7:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 19:37, John Clark wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I sense God's presence.

That's nice, but how do you know (and more important how do we know) if you are sensing a omnipotent being who created the universe or if you are sensing a bad potato that you ate yesterday? 

Or the devil imitating God to fail you. Yes.

I've never had a mystical experience, but if I did I'd have the courtesy to keep my mouth shut about it if the evidence for its validity was available only to myself. Even if I had discovered a new fact about the nature of reality there would be no way to communicate the truth about it to others. And even if you are certain about it you can't be certain that you should be certain about it, because you can be 100% sure about something and still be dead wrong, in fact it's very common, just look at Muslim suicide bombers.   

OK. Again this is a theorem in the comp theory. The wise remains mute (on the spiritual matter). But the machine can express some part in the conditional way, like she cannot prove "non provable (my-consistency), but she can prove "if I am consistent then non provable (my-consistency).

But it's only that *she* cannot prove her consistency.  Her consistency may be provable by someone other machine - it's not 'unprovable' in an absolute sense.

Not really. The other machine will give a trivial proof, by assuming the consistency of the machine at the start, or it will assume something equivalent or stronger, but perhaps not trivially related to the consistency of the machine we talk about. 

Nobody can prove the consistency of arithmetic, from less than something equivalent to that consistency. Proof of consistency are equivalent to transfinite induction on a constructive ordinal. To prove the consistency of an induction made on ordinals, you need an induction on higher ordinal. Another machine can prove a consistency, but that proof can only be convincing if we believe in the consistency of the other machine.

Bruno

Brent

Likewise, a part of the "spiritual truth" can be proved in the form "if comp then ...".

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

OK.

>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> So what's your religion, Bruno?
>>
>> I believe that there is something.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> What are its tenets that you believe on faith?
>>
>> That there is something different from me.
>
> But you have evidence for that - if you can figure out what is meant
> by "me".

I think you need faith to make data into evidence.

>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Who are the adherents?
>>
>> The non-solipsistic people. The belief in others is faith, even if
>> partially build in in our mammal brain. This makes us hard to
>> understand that it is faith, but with some work and introspection
>> you can get the point. It is very elementary and widespread
>> religion, and then with comp, it specializes a bit into a doctrine
>> close to Plato, Plotinus, and most mystics.
>
>
> Brent
> I'm a Solipist, and I must say I'm surprised there aren't more of us.
> -- letter to Bertrand Russell

I'm a Solipsist and I am surprised that some student want to believe
me. (Brouwer, from memory, not exact terming, it was in Dutch ).


Bruno

[Bruno Marchal]

On 10 Jan 2013, at 23:05, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

Why?

I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.

"Local" was a poor choice of words. A better term for what I meant would be "subjective to the machine". Taking the point of view of the machine: if it can't know certain truths about itself, how can it know any absolute truth?

By proving it. (and praying for betting correct, not having confuse a + with a *, etc.)

I assume that you are willing to agree that "17 is prime" is an example of an "absolute truth".

Apart from algebra, since rejecting it would invalidate Godel's theorem?

Gödel's theorem is a theorem in elementary arithmetic.

It is both a meta-theorem *on* a formal arithmetic, and a theorem *in* that formal arithmetic. 

I might miss your question perhaps. Please say so if it is the case.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[meekerdb]

On 1/11/2013 10:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

What are its tenets that you believe on faith?

That there is something different from me.

But you have evidence for that - if you can figure out what is meant by "me".

I think you need faith to make data into evidence.

That would vitiate the concept of evidence.  I'd say you only need a theory to make data into evidence which can count for or against the theory.

Brent

[Roger Clough]

The only tenet to faith is trust in God. Period.


[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/12/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: meekerdb
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-11, 15:47:58

Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

[Bruno Marchal]

But for making data into evidence, you need to have faith in some theory, even if the data will refute some other theory. It might be unconscious theory used in the brain, and so it might be (and certainly is in most case) an unconscious faith (which is close to my suggestion for consciousness, following Helmholtz theory of perception).

There is always implicit theories, and we always need to bet on a reality behind them, to be able to make interpretations.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Telmo Menezes]

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 10 Jan 2013, at 23:05, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

Why?

I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.

"Local" was a poor choice of words. A better term for what I meant would be "subjective to the machine". Taking the point of view of the machine: if it can't know certain truths about itself, how can it know any absolute truth?

By proving it. (and praying for betting correct, not having confuse a + with a *, etc.)

But proving only really works from outside the system. If we are a machine inside the system, how can we be sure that we are not making a systematic mistake that we are not able to recognise.

 

I assume that you are willing to agree that "17 is prime" is an example of an "absolute truth".

Yes.

 

Apart from algebra, since rejecting it would invalidate Godel's theorem?

Gödel's theorem is a theorem in elementary arithmetic.

It is both a meta-theorem *on* a formal arithmetic, and a theorem *in* that formal arithmetic. 

I might miss your question perhaps. Please say so if it is the case.

Argh, sorry. Of course.

So if we are a machine inside the system, imagine there's something about us we can't know that makes use commit fundamental mistakes. Is it possible that arithmetics only makes sense to us because of that flaw?

[Bruno Marchal]

On 12 Jan 2013, at 12:30, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 10 Jan 2013, at 23:05, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:

Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?

I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).

Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?

Why?

I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.

"Local" was a poor choice of words. A better term for what I meant would be "subjective to the machine". Taking the point of view of the machine: if it can't know certain truths about itself, how can it know any absolute truth?

By proving it. (and praying for betting correct, not having confuse a + with a *, etc.)

But proving only really works from outside the system. If we are a machine inside the system, how can we be sure that we are not making a systematic mistake that we are not able to recognise.

We are not. Proof does not lead to certainty, nor to knowledge. That is why (Bp & p) obeys a different logic than Bp, even for correct machine on p sigma_1. In that case we do have Bp <-> p, but the machine cannot prove that. That is why I said "by proving *and* praying".

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

On 12 Jan 2013, at 11:56, Roger Clough wrote:

>
> The only tenet to faith is trust in God. Period.

Yes.

That is even why we should never try to convince some others about
God. We can only trust that God will do that, at the best moment. We
can teach by example, but not with words, still less with normative
moral, I think. Hell is really paved with good intentions. God might
be the good, but the Devil is the "good".

Bruno

[Roger Clough]

Hi Bruno Marchal

Personally I have found that reading the Bible a little
and knowing some scripture verse, helps.
I believe (as did Luther) that the actual words are semi-physical
and paste themselves in our memories or subconsciousness
and work on us like cognitive therapy:

Hebrews 4:12

"12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword,
it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the
thoughts and attitudes of the heart. "

Luther suffered from time with depression, and found words
and cognitive therapy very helpful.

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/12/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-12, 07:05:18

[Platonist Guitar Cowboy]

A large part of this is not always conscious and taken for granted, which by default puts the theorist into a mystical situation. A point at which, after say her or his child will have bombarded them with a chain of "why questions?" about the nature of their work, at which there will be some unverified statement "because I have to make a living, because I love what I do, because of the advancement of knowledge, because I have to survive".

It's not totally unconscious, and as with religion, there are paradigm shifts, differing schools of thought etc. so to pass off progress in techne or understanding as purely "scientific in the disinterested sense", is a flaw. Mystic nomads came up with hunting tools despite their deities, and I guess many would say precisely because of their faith in deities. That a 21st century scientist tends to use "working hypothesis", "theory" or some variation thereof does not place him above the mystic. The very act of stating: "well, this differs from theism" is the oldest mystical trick in the book: my religion is more awesome than yours because...

In one sense, this distinction between science and theology is more deceptive than mysticism: where a mystic will wear her or his current unjustifiable belief on a shirt, some scientists will not avow to themselves that they have some. I do not care if certain scientists do this out of vanity, to place themselves above mystics and crazies in their internal narratives about their relationship to the world. Fine, we all need a bit of vain hero-narrative for motivation. I do care, when this internal negation of a scientist's theology is so literal and fanatic, that they start asking things like: "How many can we fit into a gas chamber? How can we extract fossil fuels from even deeper deposits at the lowest cost? How do people react to electrocution?" - at the mercy of political forces, ideologies of markets etc. for example.

For now I stick with Bruno Latour's notion that "we were never moderns" and that when we "reasonably" take the correct fork in the road after reading the direction sign, some alien observer will state: "the metallic panel obviously exerts a force on the entity believing some propositions, same situation essentially as when we visited last time and they were still nomadic mystics taking cues from shamanic forces and betting on game, that they now apprehend with digital technology on wall street. Deities morphed into "incorporated corporations" and enshrined entities in law, the market, political systems, and other gurus. All of this stuff still seems very dreamy and subconscious, still war driven, like last time we visited. They don't seem like fun just yet."

This is why I avoid strong forms of distinction between scientists and mystics, and will give both of them benefit of the doubt if they are not aholes.

PGC
------ "No Walter, you're not wrong! You're just an... ahole" - Jeff Bridges in some movie :)
----

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[meekerdb]

But you don't have to believe the theory to test it, you don't need faith in it.  You only need to consider it hypothetically in order to see whether data counts for or against it, i.e. for turning data into evidence.  "Betting on" isn't the same as having faith if it's provisional and subject to refutation.

Brent
“When we come to believe, we have no desire to believe  anything else, for we begin by believing that there is nothing else  which we have to believe….  I warn people not to seek for anything  beyond what they came to believe, for that was all they needed to  seek for. In the last resort,  however, it is better for you to remain ignorant, for fear that you  come to know what you should not know….  Let curiosity give place to  faith, and glory to salvation.  Let them at least be no hindrance, or  let them keep quiet.  To know nothing against the Rule [of faith] is  to know everything.”
    --- Tertullian

[Bruno Marchal]

On 12 Jan 2013, at 13:35, Roger Clough wrote:

> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> Personally I have found that reading the Bible a little
> and knowing some scripture verse, helps.

Why not?

But Chuang-tseu, Lie-tseu, Lao-Tseu, Alan Watts, and even the Baghavad
Gita (a rather crazy text from the conventional spiritual pov), and
many texts can help.

But such text should never been taken literally. Only for inspiration.
Unless they contain reasoning, like in "the question to king
Milinda" (one of my favorite spiritual text).

> I believe (as did Luther) that the actual words are semi-physical
> and paste themselves in our memories or subconsciousness
> and work on us like cognitive therapy:
>
> Hebrews 4:12
>
> "12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-
> edged sword,
> it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;
> it judges the
> thoughts and attitudes of the heart. "
>
> Luther suffered from time with depression, and found words
> and cognitive therapy very helpful.

It can be. A lot of plants can help too. Unfortunately, by tolerating
prohibition, we assist to an unfair competition between nature and
artifice, and we have made the state into a drug dealer. In the human
science we are below being nowhere. We do money from diseases, crisis,
catastrophes. There is something wrong, and I think it has been
facilitated by a tradition of artificial lack of rigor in the human
sciences, and in the fundamental sciences.

>> To post to this group, send email to everything-
>> li...@googlegroups.com.

[Telmo Menezes]

On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 12 Jan 2013, at 13:35, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

Personally I have found that reading the Bible a little
and knowing some scripture verse, helps.

Why not?

But Chuang-tseu, Lie-tseu, Lao-Tseu, Alan Watts, and even the Baghavad Gita (a rather crazy text from the conventional spiritual pov), and many texts can help.

I have a friend who keeps recommending the Bhagavad Gita. Alan Watts is great, always makes me feel better.

An interesting book written by a cognitive therapist is "Feeling Good: the New Mood Therapy" by David D. Burns, M.D. There is one study where reading this book had the same effectiveness as conventional anti-depressants (both above placebo). I'm attaching a pdf based on this work that I refer to from time to time.

 

But such text should never been taken literally. Only for inspiration. Unless they contain reasoning, like in "the question to king Milinda" (one of my favorite spiritual text).

I believe (as did Luther) that the actual words are semi-physical
and paste themselves in our memories or subconsciousness
and work on us like cognitive therapy:

Hebrews 4:12

"12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword,

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the
thoughts and attitudes of the heart. "

Luther suffered from time with depression, and found words
and cognitive therapy very helpful.

It can be. A lot of plants can help too.

Yup :)

 

Unfortunately, by tolerating prohibition, we assist to an unfair competition between nature and artifice, and we have made the state into a drug dealer. In the human science we are below being nowhere. We do money from diseases, crisis, catastrophes. There is something wrong, and I think it has been facilitated by a tradition of artificial lack of rigor in the human sciences

Why do you think that the lack of rigor in human sciences is artificial?

 

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[Bruno Marchal]

On 12 Jan 2013, at 15:37, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:

On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <mar...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 11 Jan 2013, at 21:47, meekerdb wrote:

On 1/11/2013 10:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

What are its tenets that you believe on faith?

That there is something different from me.

But you have evidence for that - if you can figure out what is meant by "me".

I think you need faith to make data into evidence.

That would vitiate the concept of evidence.  I'd say you only need a theory to make data into evidence which can count for or against the theory.

But for making data into evidence, you need to have faith in some theory, even if the data will refute some other theory. It might be unconscious theory used in the brain, and so it might be (and certainly is in most case) an unconscious faith (which is close to my suggestion for consciousness, following Helmholtz theory of perception).

There is always implicit theories, and we always need to bet on a reality behind them, to be able to make interpretations.

Bruno

A large part of this is not always conscious and taken for granted, which by default puts the theorist into a mystical situation. A point at which, after say her or his child will have bombarded them with a chain of "why questions?" about the nature of their work, at which there will be some unverified statement "because I have to make a living, because I love what I do, because of the advancement of knowledge, because I have to survive".

... or because I have the mystical believe that 0 is different from s(0), and I accept that "p&q" is true if p is true and q is true, etc. Yes.

of course the revelation that 0 is different than s(0) is done in the early month of life, so we get blasé about it, and even forget the faith, about it.

It's not totally unconscious, and as with religion, there are paradigm shifts, differing schools of thought etc. so to pass off progress in techne or understanding as purely "scientific in the disinterested sense", is a flaw.

I am not sure. May be I don't get what you mean by "scientific in the disinterested sense". Science comes from the interest in (varieties) of truth.

Mystic nomads came up with hunting tools despite their deities, and I guess many would say precisely because of their faith in deities. That a 21st century scientist tends to use "working hypothesis", "theory" or some variation thereof does not place him above the mystic.

On the contrary, I think it is the only mystical attitude. of course we are living a long time of opposition between religion and science, but this can only lead to pseudo-religion (and suffering), and bad science (and suffering). It is a sort of schizophrenia. We cut our social corpus callosum. We separate the heart and reason, but they have to work together all the time. 

We tolerate lack of rigor in the human science, like we tolerate idolatry, in philosophy, theology, etc. We are still in the dark age, a lasting coming back since about +500 in occident.

The very act of stating: "well, this differs from theism" is the oldest mystical trick in the book: my religion is more awesome than yours because...

In one sense, this distinction between science and theology is more deceptive than mysticism: where a mystic will wear her or his current unjustifiable belief on a shirt, some scientists will not avow to themselves that they have some. I do not care if certain scientists do this out of vanity, to place themselves above mystics and crazies in their internal narratives about their relationship to the world. Fine, we all need a bit of vain hero-narrative for motivation. I do care, when this internal negation of a scientist's theology is so literal and fanatic, that they start asking things like: "How many can we fit into a gas chamber? How can we extract fossil fuels from even deeper deposits at the lowest cost? How do people react to electrocution?" - at the mercy of political forces, ideologies of markets etc. for example.

For now I stick with Bruno Latour's notion that "we were never moderns"

I am not that pessimist. "We" have been modern from -500 to +500, and modernity is still in the heart of everyone, but a bit sleepy. Some people still want to defend truth, instead of searching it. They have missed the deepest truth common among (genuine) mystics and (genuine) scientist, which is that truth is the last thing needing argument per authority.

and that when we "reasonably" take the correct fork in the road after reading the direction sign, some alien observer will state: "the metallic panel obviously exerts a force on the entity believing some propositions, same situation essentially as when we visited last time and they were still nomadic mystics taking cues from shamanic forces and betting on game, that they now apprehend with digital technology on wall street. Deities morphed into "incorporated corporations"

? false deities I guess. They got name, and here it is important to not let them be considered as person (unless we decide to abandon our universality, but I would not recommand that). This problem will rea-appear all the time in the long futures of humanity and the more general Löbianity, if I can say. 

and enshrined entities in law, the market, political systems, and other gurus.

democracy should prevent them to be like "gurus", but for this to work, you need good separation between the different powers. Those days, there is a lot of leaking. democraties are machine, and machines always ages. That's why there is sex and other metamorphoses.

All of this stuff still seems very dreamy and subconscious, still war driven, like last time we visited. They don't seem like fun just yet."

This is why I avoid strong forms of distinction between scientists and mystics, and will give both of them benefit of the doubt if they are not aholes.

I can' agree more. I don't separate them at all. It can be a good methodological idea  to separate some aspect of science from some aspect of mysticism, but they can progressed only together.

Bruno

PGC
------ "No Walter, you're not wrong! You're just an... ahole" - Jeff Bridges in some movie :)

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

On 13 Jan 2013, at 01:40, meekerdb wrote:

On 1/12/2013 3:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 11 Jan 2013, at 21:47, meekerdb wrote:

On 1/11/2013 10:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

What are its tenets that you believe on faith?

That there is something different from me.

But you have evidence for that - if you can figure out what is meant by "me".

I think you need faith to make data into evidence.

That would vitiate the concept of evidence.  I'd say you only need a theory to make data into evidence which can count for or against the theory.

But for making data into evidence, you need to have faith in some theory, even if the data will refute some other theory. It might be unconscious theory used in the brain, and so it might be (and certainly is in most case) an unconscious faith (which is close to my suggestion for consciousness, following Helmholtz theory of perception).

There is always implicit theories, and we always need to bet on a reality behind them, to be able to make interpretations.

But you don't have to believe the theory to test it,

You have to believe enough.

you don't need faith in it. 

It depends on the applications. If your life can be endangered you need some sort of faith, like with the "yes doctor", or like in taking a plane. 

You only need to consider it hypothetically in order to see whether data counts for or against it, i.e. for turning data into evidence.  "Betting on" isn't the same as having faith if it's provisional and subject to refutation.

But it becomes faith in comp and quantum suicide, as it involves surviving when the theory is correct or dying when the theory is incorrect.

But you need faith also when you put your feet on the ground, but as I said, we do have faith like that since so long that we forget the act of faith.

Bruno

Brent
“When we come to believe, we have no desire to believe  anything else, for we begin by believing that there is nothing else  which we have to believe….  I warn people not to seek for anything  beyond what they came to believe, for that was all they needed to  seek for. In the last resort,  however, it is better for you to remain ignorant, for fear that you  come to know what you should not know….  Let curiosity give place to  faith, and glory to salvation.  Let them at least be no hindrance, or  let them keep quiet.  To know nothing against the Rule [of faith] is  to know everything.”
    --- Tertullian

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[Roger Clough]

Hi Telmo Menezes

Burns' therapy is called "cognitive therapy". I use it all of the time.



[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/14/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Telmo Menezes
Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-13, 12:59:38
Subject: Re: cognitive therapy


The attachments of the original message is as following:
(1). CBT-distortions.pdf

On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 12 Jan 2013, at 13:35, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Bruno Marchal

Personally I have found that reading the Bible a little
and knowing some scripture verse, helps.


Why not?

But Chuang-tseu, Lie-tseu, Lao-Tseu, Alan Watts, and even the Baghavad Gita (a rather crazy text from the conventional spiritual pov), and many texts can help.



I have a friend who keeps recommending the Bhagavad Gita. Alan Watts is great, always makes me feel better.


An interesting book written by a cognitive therapist is "Feeling Good: the New Mood Therapy" by David D. Burns, M.D. There is one study where reading this book had the same effectiveness as conventional anti-depressants (both above placebo). I'm attaching a pdf based on this work that I refer to from time to time.

?

But such text should never been taken literally. Only for inspiration. Unless they contain reasoning, like in "the question to king Milinda" (one of my favorite spiritual text).




I believe (as did Luther) that the actual words are semi-physical
and paste themselves in our memories or subconsciousness
and work on us like cognitive therapy:

Hebrews 4:12

"12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword,
it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the
thoughts and attitudes of the heart. "

Luther suffered from time with depression, and found words
and cognitive therapy very helpful.


It can be. A lot of plants can help too.


Yup :)

?

Unfortunately, by tolerating prohibition, we assist to an unfair competition between nature and artifice, and we have made the state into a drug dealer. In the human science we are below being nowhere. We do money from diseases, crisis, catastrophes. There is something wrong, and I think it has been facilitated by a tradition of artificial lack of rigor in the human sciences


Why do you think that the lack of rigor in human sciences is artificial?

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[Telmo Menezes]

Hi Roger,

Me too - well maybe not as often as I should. I hope it's helping you!

[Roger Clough]

Hi Telmo Menezes

Same here.

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/14/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Telmo Menezes
Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-14, 07:42:02

Subject: Re: Re: cognitive therapy

Hi Roger,


Me too - well maybe not as often as I should. I hope it's helping you!

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Telmo Menezes

Burns' therapy is called "cognitive therapy". ? use it all of the time.

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/14/2013

"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Telmo Menezes
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-13, 12:59:38
Subject: Re: cognitive therapy


The attachments of the original message is as following:

? (1). CBT-distortions.pdf








On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Bruno Marchal ?rote:

[Craig Weinberg]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 – 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of ‘disorders’ and was judged to be “disturbed but sane” by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "

On Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:56:06 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

The only tenet to faith is trust in God. Period.

Period?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 – 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of ‘disorders’ and was judged to be “disturbed but sane” by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "

There are many, many more of course...

[Roger Clough]

Hi Craig Weinberg

 

Period, meaning that's it. 

 

 

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Craig Weinberg

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-23, 12:48:50

Subject: Re: Re: Sensing the presence of God

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 � 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of 慸isorders� and was judged to be 揹isturbed but sane� by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "


On Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:56:06 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

The only tenet to faith is trust in God. Period.

Period?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 � 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of 慸isorders� and was judged to be 揹isturbed but sane� by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "

There are many, many more of course...

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[Roger Clough]

Hi Craig Weinberg

 

 

An article in the American Journal of Psychiatry in 2004 suggested that atheists might have a higher suicide rate than theists.^[10] According to William Bainbridge, atheism is common among people whose social obligations are weak and is also connected to lower fertility rates in some industrial nations.^[11] Extended length of sobriety in alcohol recovery is related positively to higher levels of theistic belief, active community helping, and self-transcendence.^[12] Some studies state that in developed countries, health, life expectancy, and other correlates of wealth, tend to be statistical predictors of a greater percentage of atheists, compared to countries with higher proportions of believers.^[13][14] Multiple methodological problems have been identified with cross-national assessments of religiosity, secularity, and social health which undermine conclusive statements on religiosity and secularity in developed democracies. ^[15]"

 

^{- wikipedia}

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Craig Weinberg

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-23, 12:48:50

Subject: Re: Re: Sensing the presence of God

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 � 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of 慸isorders� and was judged to be 揹isturbed but sane� by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "


On Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:56:06 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

The only tenet to faith is trust in God. Period.

Period?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 � 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of 慸isorders� and was judged to be 揹isturbed but sane� by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "

There are many, many more of course...

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[Craig Weinberg]

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:46:47 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

Hi Craig Weinberg

 

Period, meaning that's it. 

I know what you meant by period. If you noticed, I attached a list of serial killers who followed what they understood to be the voice of God.

The implication is that if you disable your own critical thinking and open your will to whatever claims to be God in your psyche, then don't be surprised if you end up murdering and eating people, as so many have found out and continue to find out. Ah, but they're probably Liberals, eh? The Godless Nazi-Hippies that do whatever God says.

Craig
 

 

 

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Craig Weinberg

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-23, 12:48:50

Subject: Re: Re: Sensing the presence of God

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 � 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of �isorders� and was judged to be �isturbed but sane� by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "


On Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:56:06 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

The only tenet to faith is trust in God. Period.

Period?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 � 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of �isorders� and was judged to be �isturbed but sane� by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "

There are many, many more of course...

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[Craig Weinberg]

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:52:59 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

Hi Craig Weinberg

 

 

An article in the American Journal of Psychiatry in 2004 suggested that atheists might have a higher suicide rate than theists.^[10] According to William Bainbridge, atheism is common among people whose social obligations are weak and is also connected to lower fertility rates in some industrial nations.^[11] Extended length of sobriety in alcohol recovery is related positively to higher levels of theistic belief, active community helping, and self-transcendence.^[12] Some studies state that in developed countries, health, life expectancy, and other correlates of wealth, tend to be statistical predictors of a greater percentage of atheists, compared to countries with higher proportions of believers.^[13][14] Multiple methodological problems have been identified with cross-national assessments of religiosity, secularity, and social health which undermine conclusive statements on religiosity and secularity in developed democracies. ^[15]"

 

^{- wikipedia}

Maybe it's because atheists have higher intelligence on average, and higher intelligence is associated with higher suicide rates in some studies. It's not that hard to see why. If you are smart enough to see through religion, you are smart enough to see through the spectacle that passes for life on this planet. Without the fear of burning in hell forever, a lot of people would probably be more likely to end their lives.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201005/the-real-reason-atheists-have-higher-iqs
 

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Craig Weinberg

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-23, 12:48:50

Subject: Re: Re: Sensing the presence of God

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 � 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of �isorders� and was judged to be �isturbed but sane� by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "


On Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:56:06 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

The only tenet to faith is trust in God. Period.

Period?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7894536/Yorkshire-Ripper-Peter-Sutcliffe-could-leave-Broadmoor-despite-life-behind-bars-ruling.html

"Sutcliffe, now known as Peter Coonan, murdered 13 women and attempted to kill seven others during a five-and-a-half year reign of terror across Yorkshire and Greater Manchester 1975 to 1981. He claimed he heard the voice of God, speaking from tombstones while he was working in a graveyard, telling him to kill prostitutes. "

http://listdom.wordpress.com/category/a-serial-killers-view/

"Albert Fish 1870 � 1936.  Fish said he had killed around 23 people. He apparently had an array of �isorders� and was judged to be �isturbed but sane� by a psychiatrist prior to any convictions. Fish murdered then ate his victims, and at his trial professed that he heard the voice of God telling him to kill children. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2012/05/22/mb-vince-li-schizophrenia-interview-manitoba.html

"Vince Li, who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus in Manitoba nearly four years ago, believed he was chosen by God to save people from an alien attack."

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KALLINGER_joseph.php

"On January 23, 1972 he branded his oldest daughter for running away. He was arrested for child abuse and found incompetent to stand trial. By mid-1974 he was constantly hearing voices from a floating head that followed him around. God also spoke to him and told him to kill young boys and sever their penises. Eager to comply, Joe enlisted his 13-year-old son, Michael, and proceeded to torture and murder a nine-year-old Puerto Rican youth. Their next victim was one of his own children, Joe Jr., who had previously accused him of abuse. For such a transgression the hapless youngster was found drowned in an abandoned building. "

There are many, many more of course...

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[meekerdb]

On 1/24/2013 9:32 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:52:59 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:

Hi Craig Weinberg

 

 

An article in the American Journal of Psychiatry in 2004 suggested that atheists might have a higher suicide rate than theists.^[10] According to William Bainbridge, atheism is common among people whose social obligations are weak and is also connected to lower fertility rates in some industrial nations.^[11] Extended length of sobriety in alcohol recovery is related positively to higher levels of theistic belief, active community helping, and self-transcendence.^[12] Some studies state that in developed countries, health, life expectancy, and other correlates of wealth, tend to be statistical predictors of a greater percentage of atheists, compared to countries with higher proportions of believers.^[13][14] Multiple methodological problems have been identified with cross-national assessments of religiosity, secularity, and social health which undermine conclusive statements on religiosity and secularity in developed democracies. ^[15]"

 

^{- wikipedia}

Maybe it's because atheists have higher intelligence on average, and higher intelligence is associated with higher suicide rates in some studies. It's not that hard to see why. If you are smart enough to see through religion, you are smart enough to see through the spectacle that passes for life on this planet. Without the fear of burning in hell forever, a lot of people would probably be more likely to end their lives.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201005/the-real-reason-atheists-have-higher-iqs

It's probably a lot simpler than that.  In the U.S. if you're an atheist it may be hard to find a sympathetic ear.  Depending a lot on where you live, you may be isolated and reviled.

Brent

[Stathis Papaioannou]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 4:55 AM, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:

> It's probably a lot simpler than that. In the U.S. if you're an atheist it
> may be hard to find a sympathetic ear. Depending a lot on where you live,
> you may be isolated and reviled.

Is that really true? I was in the US recently for the first time,
Scottsdale Arizona and NYC, and other than Christmas decorations I
can't recall seeing much evidence of religion at all. This is perhaps
a superficial impression but I was a bit surprised nevertheless.


--
Stathis Papaioannou

[meekerdb]

Scottsdale is pretty cosmopolitan - it's where airline pilots go to retire. NYC of course
is as secular, diverse, and worldly as any place in the world. Try visiting small towns
in Kentucky, South Carolina, Mississippi, Oklahoma,... It's not called "the bible belt"
for nothing.

Brent

[Craig Weinberg]

It would be more tedious than genuinely threatening to be an atheist adult in redneck America - unless you insist upon being as vocal as the Fundies. Yes, there's a lot of churches, and people will ask you what church you go to, but they will also ask you what sports team you support and think you are just as threatening if you are unaffiliated that way.

Craig

Brent

[meekerdb]

I'd didn't say they'd be threatening.  But if you were an atheist looking for a friendly ear the only ones you'd find would probably want to convert you.

Brent

[Craig Weinberg]

I don't know that not being able to talk to others about your (non) religious beliefs would be cause for suicide though. Especially now that there's the internet... I can't remember the last time I had a conversation with someone about religion IRL. If it was that important to find a friendly ear in multiple neighbors and co-workers specifically to listen to you talk about being an atheist, then that makes me think about questioning the claim that atheism isn't like a religion.

Craig

Brent

[meekerdb]

On 1/24/2013 8:43 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

I don't know that not being able to talk to others about your (non) religious beliefs would be cause for suicide though.

Not a cause, just the absence of a little prevention.

Brent

[Roger Clough]

Hi Stathis Papaioannou

 

I think right-to-lifers are those with some moral or religious foundation

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30771408/ns/us_news-life/t/majority-americans-now-pro-life-poll-says/#.UQKkI2cUBlM

 

 

 

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Stathis Papaioannou

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-24, 20:14:48

Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

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[Craig Weinberg]

Theoretically, ok, but in practice, most people who have access to the internet or telephone should be able to plug that absence without too much trauma.

Craig

Brent

[Bruno Marchal]

Hi Roger,

Pro-life will lead to comp abuse, when you will get an artificial brain without your consent. 

Pro-life is risky making comp into a (pseudo)-religion, but comp warns us that if this happen, we will get unsound, arithmetically. But there is a possibility we already are.

Bruno

On 25 Jan 2013, at 16:29, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Stathis Papaioannou

 

I think right-to-lifers are those with some moral or religious foundation

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30771408/ns/us_news-life/t/majority-americans-now-pro-life-poll-says/#.UQKkI2cUBlM

 

<abortionPoll-bcol.grid-6x2.jpg>

 

 

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Stathis Papaioannou

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-24, 20:14:48

Subject: Re: Sensing the presence of God

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 4:55 AM, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:

> It's probably a lot simpler than that. In the U.S. if you're an atheist it
> may be hard to find a sympathetic ear. Depending a lot on where you live,
> you may be isolated and reviled.

Is that really true? I was in the US recently for the first time,
Scottsdale Arizona and NYC, and other than Christmas decorations I
can't recall seeing much evidence of religion at all. This is perhaps
a superficial impression but I was a bit surprised nevertheless.


--
Stathis Papaioannou

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[Bruno Marchal]

Atheism (at least the non agnostic strong form of it) is a (pseudo) religion. The atheists believe religiously in a primary material reality (the creation), and define God like the Christians (to not believe in it). So they are ally with (strong) Christians to prevent the coming back of seriousness, inquiries and deductive reasoning in the theological field. Seen from the Plato/Aristotle difference perspective, (strong) atheism is a slight variant of Christianism, and that is even more palatable when you are aware of the atheist sects (which are often secret and non transparent, practice communion, give a name to a God, etc. and are largely ignored by the media).

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

[meekerdb]

OK, I'm ready for an expose'  What are these secret atheist sects that practice communion, etc.

I was just imagining some poor teenage non-believer in Kentucky who couldn't get a date because nobody would let their daughter go out with an atheist from the pit of hell.  I didn't consider that he might commit suicide because he couldn't find any atheists to have communion with.

Brent

[Roger Clough]

Hi Bruno Marchal

 

That is, if comp actually works.  

Is there any experimental proof available ?

 

 

----- Receiving the following content -----

From: Bruno Marchal

Receiver: everything-list

Time: 2013-01-27, 07:03:11

[Craig Weinberg]

On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 1:37:58 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net> wrote:

> I sense God's presence.

That's nice, but how do you know (and more important how do we know) if you are sensing a omnipotent being who created the universe or if you are sensing a bad potato that you ate yesterday? 

I've never had a mystical experience, but if I did I'd have the courtesy to keep my mouth shut about it if the evidence for its validity was available only to myself.

Maybe that's why you've never had a mystical experience.
 

Even if I had discovered a new fact about the nature of reality there would be no way to communicate the truth about it to others. And even if you are certain about it you can't be certain that you should be certain about it, because you can be 100% sure about something and still be dead wrong, in fact it's very common, just look at Muslim suicide bombers.   

The longer we live, the more we will see that what we thought was right, wasn't the whole story, and that many of the things that we thought were most wrong is not completely false. There has never been a time in history when this was not true and I don't expect that there ever will be.

Craig

  John K Clark

[Bruno Marchal]

On 30 Jan 2013, at 11:58, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

 

That is, if comp actually works.  

Is there any experimental proof available ?

Comp is the hypothesis by default, as it is far simpler than non-comp, and there are no evidence at all for non-comp, just feeling by some people having usually a pre-Gödelian conception of numbers and machines.

I got comp from observation of amoeba, and i was lucky to be born with the discovery of the genetic code, making biological organism digital relatively to chemistry and physics.

Bruno

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/