Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in Doubt

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freqflyer07281972

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Oct 18, 2012, 2:16:44 PM10/18/12
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Is anyone here aware of the following?

http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/66654-heisenbergs-uncertainty-principle-in-doubt

Does it have implications for MW interpretations of quantum physics?

I'd love to see comments about this.

Cheers,

Dan

Richard Ruquist

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Oct 18, 2012, 2:42:19 PM10/18/12
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Dan,
I think the implication for MWI is that such weak measurements do not
cause the universe to split into a different version for each possible
quantum state. I also think that most of us are aware of these
results.
Richard
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Jason Resch

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Oct 18, 2012, 5:19:36 PM10/18/12
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This must be what the "Heisenberg compensators" do in star trek. :-)

Jason

Jesse Mazer

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Oct 18, 2012, 5:30:09 PM10/18/12
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There was another article about this group's work back in September, at http://www.nature.com/news/quantum-uncertainty-not-all-in-the-measurement-1.11394 -- it seems as though this is not really about contradicting the mathematical form of uncertainty in the equations of quantum mechanics, but rather about certain interpretations of uncertainty which say it's all induced by measurement. As Steinberg says in that article:

'Don't get too excited: the uncertainty principle still stands, says Steinberg: “In the end, there's no way you can know [both quantum states] accurately at the same time.” But the experiment shows that the act of measurement isn't always what causes the uncertainty. “If there's already a lot of uncertainty in the system, then there doesn't need to be any noise from the measurement at all,” he says.'

Also see the abstract of a paper by Rozema et al (the main scientist they quoted in Dan's link) at http://physics.aps.org/synopsis-for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.109.100404 which says:

"When first taking quantum mechanics courses, students learn about Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, which is often presented as a statement about the intrinsic uncertainty that a quantum system must possess. Yet Heisenberg originally formulated his principle in terms of the “observer effect”: a relationship between the precision of a measurement and the disturbance it creates, as when a photon measures an electron’s position. Although the former version is rigorously proven, the latter is less general and—as recently shown—mathematically incorrect."


On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:16 PM, freqflyer07281972 <thismind...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Stephen P. King

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Oct 18, 2012, 11:19:52 PM10/18/12
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Hi Dan,

This article is rubbish. The writer does not understand the
subtleties involved and does not understand that nothing like the tittle
was found to be true.

--
Onward!

Stephen


Roger Clough

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Oct 19, 2012, 6:02:01 AM10/19/12
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Hi Richard Ruquist

Don't take this too seriously, but my dislike of
the idea of multiple universes makes me suggest
that the "other" universes could be just potential
or probable universes.


Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net
10/19/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Richard Ruquist
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-18, 14:42:19
Subject: Re: Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in Doubt


Dan,
I think the implication for MWI is that such weak measurements do not
cause the universe to split into a different version for each possible
quantum state. I also think that most of us are aware of these
results.
Richard

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:16 PM, freqflyer07281972

Craig Weinberg

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Oct 20, 2012, 3:10:09 PM10/20/12
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I agree. I see what they were trying to get at: Measurement can cause uncertainty but not all of the uncertainty. They leave open the question of what does cause the uncertainty - i.e. perhaps the very nature of quantum is uncertain or immeasurable.

The problem of course is in the assumption "we're just going to make a *weak* measurement that won't have an effect on it". Sigh. I'll just stand in the bathroom with you...you won't even know I'm here. You can't fool the fabric of the universe. You can spoof it maybe, but you can't hide from it entirely.

Craig
 
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Onward!

Stephen


Stephen P. King

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Oct 20, 2012, 5:13:52 PM10/20/12
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Hi Craig,

    Uncertainty is in the geometric/statistical relationship between observables themselves.

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Onward!

Stephen

Roger Clough

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Oct 21, 2012, 6:52:45 AM10/21/12
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Hi Craig Weinberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle


"...the uncertainty principle is inherent in the properties of all wave-like systems...."


Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net
10/21/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Craig Weinberg
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-20, 15:10:09
Subject: Re: Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in Doubt




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Bruno Marchal

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Oct 22, 2012, 7:05:56 AM10/22/12
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On 21 Oct 2012, at 12:52, Roger Clough wrote:

> Hi Craig Weinberg
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
>
>
> "...the uncertainty principle is inherent in the properties of all
> wave-like systems...."

Formally yes, but the meaning of the uncertainty principle is very
different according to the fact that a material substance is
vibrating, (Classical Mechanics) or an amplitude of probability
(Quantum Mechanics).

Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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