More efficient house heating or engineereing human body?

[Mega]

Hi,

Some time ago, I read a blog post with one doing the maths that people could save a LOT of energy by turning their thermostats to 15°C, which should be quite bearable for mammals that have been evolving for millions of years and more.
AFAI Remember, he tried it out himself and wants to continue doing so.

Of course, he puts on warm clothes and had a heating lamp that heats just the spot where he sits ("why should I heat my books and my walls?")


At the end he gives a thought on this: Why shouldn't we engineer the human body to be able to withstand colder temperatures instead of heating? That could save a giant ammount of gas burnt and slow down climate change.





I don't want to discuss the ethical aspects of this, but as anyone ever thought about this? What would we need to change the human body to withstand colder temperatures?

I assume it's just the enzymes that don't work at lower temperatures? So, basically, one would have to study all enzymes of the human body, identify the ones that don't work below 37°C,  and find homologous proteins in cold-tolerating bacteria / etc. and add this to the human genome?

[ruphos]

For a minor degree shift like that, I doubt it would require much in the way of biological engineering. Environmental exposure seems to do a lot just on its own. Look at people raised in Scandinavia vs. UK vs. the Mediterranean. While certain people definitely handle temperature extremes (hot and cold) better, exposure and natural acclimation do a lot on their own.

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[Nathan McCorkle]

I have my thermostat set on 12.77 degrees C right now, if I threw a wool hat on I'd get quite warm at this temp.

There is definitely waste heat produced by metabolism, and I bet 37 C is above the waste level, to account for extra heat produced by muscles. So if I'm sitting reading in a chair, I bet my body has a heater turned on, but when I'm outside cleaning the yard my body turns off extra heating because my muscles are now generating more heat. If the enzymes were optimized for the waste heat level (likely lower than 37 at steady state) then if we started using muscles we'd be above the optimal temp for the enzymes, with no heater to turn down to make up the difference.

Short story, I agree most people probably have their home too warm during cold months. My father prefers very warm home temperatures to the point where you're comfortable in short sleeves, probably in the mid 20's C... much too warm for me.  

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Mega <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Andreas Sturm]

Yeah, most of the people have 22°C or even more.
And they don't want to use their muscles, that's why nowadays everyone has a car (some 80 or 90% of the trips are shorter than 2 km, IIRC. )

So engineering the body would be the only way to bring lazy average Joe to turn the thermostat lower. If he felt confortable, and wouldn't "feel cold".

[Matthias Bock]

Some time ago, I read a blog post with one doing the maths that people could save a LOT of energy by turning their thermostats to 15°C, which should be quite bearable for mammals that have been evolving for millions of years and more.

...

Of course, he puts on warm clothes and had a heating lamp that heats just the spot where he sits ("why should I heat my books and my walls?")

Yes, you could save a lot of energy (and money, and CO2 etc.) by turning down your heater.
According to Vantaan Energia (http://www.tulikivi.com/usa-can/fireplaces/Heating_with_wood)
heating accounts for about half of an electrically (!) heated appartment's energy consumption
(electrical heating is very inefficient though, better heat with wood or gas).

At the end he gives a thought on this: Why shouldn't we engineer the human body to be able to withstand colder temperatures instead of heating? That could save a giant ammount of gas burnt and slow down climate change.

That's a giant undertaking, since really ALL biochemical processes in the body are optimized to about 37°C,
you immediately feel it, when it changes by only 1°C (fever / frost).

The temperature affects not only metabolic rates, but also protein-protein-, protein-DNA-, DNA-DNA- and protein-organic-
interactions. E.g. protein surfaces have evolved to bind with a certain probability at normothermia.
Reducing the temperature increases such binding, presumably non-linearly, leading e.g. to higher rates of false-positive signalling events.
Considering, that most protein structures (and thus surfaces) are unresolved yet,
the thought of engeneering is - let's say at least very far away.
Also reduced diffusion rates of signalling molecules could play a role.

I don't want to discuss the ethical aspects of this, but as anyone ever thought about this? What would we need to change the human body to withstand colder temperatures?

I guess, withstanding low temperates would be something different than re-engineering metabolism to a different optimum:
Probably it would e.g. be possible to add some ice crystal avoiding proteins from lizards to humans
in order to avoid physical frost damage to cells.
 

I assume it's just the enzymes that don't work at lower temperatures? So, basically, one would have to study all enzymes of the human body, identify the ones that don't work below 37°C,  and find homologous proteins in cold-tolerating bacteria / etc. and add this to the human genome?

See above: The cell contains not only enzymes (for metabolism), but also signalling, cytosceleton, DNA, DNA regulation and all that stuff.
Metabolism would be the smallest problem, I guess.

Another thing: Since really many animals are optimized to 37°C, you can expect
there to be more reasons, which favor exactly this temperature.
In fact (can't find the article now, sorry, maybe try googling if interested),
I read somewhere that also immunology is important here,
as bacterial (pathogen) growth rates vs. pathogen clearance rates (immunological efficiency) also need to be considered:
Pathogens are usually inhibited in growth by higher temperatures, as they
come from "the outside" and thus are adapted to lower temperatures.

Cheers! Matthias

[Andreas Sturm]

Matthias,

I don't think that ALL enzymes require 37°C.

There surely are some which handle cooler temperatures better than others, stochastic evolution. Those ones one would need to substitute/ augment by others.

Damage to the cells? This happens when freezing. But when the human body just gets a few degrees colder in it's "core", it may die.

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[Andreas Sturm]

That with the pathogens will be true, perhaps.
One would need more antibiotics, if that's correct, which would lead to more resistances in pathogenic organisms.
On the other hand the body would save energy from heating, so basically it would have more energy to fight germs?



(By the way, has anyone heard of the 2045 initiative? They want to bring human minds into artificial brains -> immortality. That would make viruses and pathogenic bacteria harmless, because they don't infect abiotic organisms. Just wanted to mention, not that I strongly believe that it will work :) )

[Cathal Garvey]

I follow a post-peak-oil blog called the "Archdruid Report". A lot of
great stuff, and a lot of self-important assumptions, but one nice
detail I recall: he lives in hot, humid mid-south America (can't recall
precisely where), and he's the only guy in his area not to use Air
Conditioning. His reasoning? Get used to the heat you'll have to deal
with when Air Conditioning is a profligate waste of money. And according
to his own experience, he's totally acclimatised to a temperature that
his neighbours find induces light-headedness in summer.

Same's certainly true of cold: I can't cope in Florida, for example, but
I'm pretty comfortable for short stretches outdoors in the Alps (as long
as I'm moving!). Ireland's just generally a bit chilly, if not freezing. :)

www.indiebiotech.com
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PGP Public Key: http://bit.ly/CathalGKey

[Jeswin]

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Cathal Garvey <cathal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Same's certainly true of cold: I can't cope in Florida, for example, but
> I'm pretty comfortable for short stretches outdoors in the Alps (as long
> as I'm moving!). Ireland's just generally a bit chilly, if not freezing. :)
>

I agree. I spent my first 5 years in tropical climate and then moved
into the 4 seasons of east coast USA. I can stand 2 of the seasons but
hate the cold ones. I have poor heat distribution to the hand and
feet, even if my torso is warm. The use of heat also dries out the
skin. I solve this by getting the heart rate up with quick exercises
and using body lotion to keep the skin from drying. For me, the
ultimate solution is to move back to the warmer climate.

I guess some people are more biologically suited for certain climates.

[Cathal Garvey]

You know how babies and young children have a tissue called "Brown Fat"
that generates loads of heat and burns loads of energy? Apparently they
lose it at an earlier age in warmer homes, which has been supposed to
play a role in childhood obesity.

There's lots of research into re-generating brown fat in adulthood to
burn fat and help people lose weight; this would be a pretty bad idea
somewhere like Florida, where you might just die of overheating or be
forced to lower the thermostat on the air-conditioning.

Somewhere like Ireland though, where people generally have to heat their
homes, it would save energy spent on heating fuel.. at the expense of
extra food.

[Cathal Garvey]

Tips from a chilly irishperson: avoid caffeine in cold weather, as it
triggers adrenaline release and thus constricts peripheral vasculature:
cold hands and feed may result. Try ginseng or other
circulation-boosting herbs/foods to push it in the other direction,
although ginseng isn't so great for longer than a few weeks; I get
migraines if I take it for longer than 2-3 weeks, so spare it for midwinter!

Ginger and Lemon tea comes highly recommended over here also, from those
in the know. Ginger is somewhat pyrogenic, I find, and actually does
warm you up. Capsaicin-containing stuff like hot chillies can trick the
body into thinking it's hot, which can often have a similar effect as it
tries to dump heat through the skin, but that's probably only true of
the face; might help avoid windburn on cheeks though.

[Jeswin]

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Cathal Garvey <cathal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tips from a chilly irishperson: avoid caffeine in cold weather, as it
> triggers adrenaline release and thus constricts peripheral vasculature:
> cold hands and feed may result. Try ginseng or other
> circulation-boosting herbs/foods to push it in the other direction,
> although ginseng isn't so great for longer than a few weeks; I get
> migraines if I take it for longer than 2-3 weeks, so spare it for midwinter!

I drink some tea in the morning drive and hot water till I get home.
Then I drink hot mint water. Thanks for the heads-up on the caffeine.
I drink 1 cup on Saturdays, best avoid now.

>
> Ginger and Lemon tea comes highly recommended over here also, from those
> in the know. Ginger is somewhat pyrogenic, I find, and actually does
> warm you up. Capsaicin-containing stuff like hot chillies can trick the
> body into thinking it's hot, which can often have a similar effect as it
> tries to dump heat through the skin, but that's probably only true of
> the face; might help avoid windburn on cheeks though.
>

Hmm, might have to try some combo of ginger and mint.

Hey, maybe we should make another thread discussing dietary-hacking?
Is that even a thing?

[Alex Hoekstra]

Ah, Cathal beat me to it - I was about to bring up Brown Adipose Tissue and non-shivering thermogenesis.  Neat stuff that I can personally attest to being quite useful in Michigan and Massachusetts winters.

See also: cold immersion - http://www.marksdailyapple.com/cold-water-therapy/#axzz2BqPtyVzS

On Friday, November 9, 2012 1:23:41 PM UTC-5, Cathal wrote:

You know how babies and young children have a tissue called "Brown Fat"
that generates loads of heat and burns loads of energy? Apparently they
lose it at an earlier age in warmer homes, which has been supposed to
play a role in childhood obesity.

There's lots of research into re-generating brown fat in adulthood to
burn fat and help people lose weight; this would be a pretty bad idea
somewhere like Florida, where you might just die of overheating or be
forced to lower the thermostat on the air-conditioning.

Somewhere like Ireland though, where people generally have to heat their
homes, it would save energy spent on heating fuel.. at the expense of
extra food.

On 08/11/12 19:51, Andreas Sturm wrote:

> Yeah, most of the people have 22�C or even more.

> And they don't want to use their muscles, that's why nowadays everyone has
> a car (some 80 or 90% of the trips are shorter than 2 km, IIRC. )
>
> So engineering the body would be the only way to bring lazy average Joe to
> turn the thermostat lower. If he felt confortable, and wouldn't "feel cold".
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:28 PM, Nathan McCorkle <nmz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have my thermostat set on 12.77 degrees C right now, if I threw a wool
>> hat on I'd get quite warm at this temp.
>>
>> There is definitely waste heat produced by metabolism, and I bet 37 C is
>> above the waste level, to account for extra heat produced by muscles. So if
>> I'm sitting reading in a chair, I bet my body has a heater turned on, but
>> when I'm outside cleaning the yard my body turns off extra heating because
>> my muscles are now generating more heat. If the enzymes were optimized for
>> the waste heat level (likely lower than 37 at steady state) then if we
>> started using muscles we'd be above the optimal temp for the enzymes, with
>> no heater to turn down to make up the difference.
>>
>> Short story, I agree most people probably have their home too warm during
>> cold months. My father prefers very warm home temperatures to the point
>> where you're comfortable in short sleeves, probably in the mid 20's C...
>> much too warm for me.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Mega <masters...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Some time ago, I read a blog post with one doing the maths that people

>>> could save a LOT of energy by turning their thermostats to 15�C, which

>>> should be quite bearable for mammals that have been evolving for millions
>>> of years and more.
>>> AFAI Remember, he tried it out himself and wants to continue doing so.
>>>
>>> Of course, he puts on warm clothes and had a heating lamp that heats just
>>> the spot where he sits ("why should I heat my books and my walls?")
>>>
>>>
>>> At the end he gives a thought on this: Why shouldn't we engineer the
>>> human body to be able to withstand colder temperatures instead of heating?
>>> That could save a giant ammount of gas burnt and slow down climate change.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't want to discuss the ethical aspects of this, but as anyone ever
>>> thought about this? What would we need to change the human body to
>>> withstand colder temperatures?
>>>
>>> I assume it's just the enzymes that don't work at lower temperatures? So,
>>> basically, one would have to study all enzymes of the human body, identify

>>> the ones that don't work below 37�C,  and find homologous proteins in