RE: [ORE] [WT] Character help!

[Chris Fougere]

Since it seems the character is about controlling light and not creating it, throw on an if/then flaw (Must have a light source) if your ST lets you (it is borderline cheesy).

Off the top of my head I'd go with something like
Control Light (the if/then means the power only works if you have a light source)
A (1) - If/Then (-1), Obvious (-1), Speeding Bullet (+2), Go First (+1), Focus (-1), Willpower Bid (-1)
D (3) - If/Then (-1), Obvious (-1), Interference (+3), Duration (+2), Focus (-1), Willpower Bid (-1)
U (1) - If/Then (-1), Obvious (-1), Focus (-1), Radius (+2), Daze (+1), Willpower Bid (-1)
U (1) - If/Then (-1), Focus (-1), Obvious (-1), Willpower Bid (-1)

Total - 6/12/24

This gives you an attack that's hard to defend against.  With Duration and Interferance on Defends it emulates a light based force shield that will last for the combat and still gives you the ability to manipulate light and daze folks.  In our game we have a light manipulator who also has the ability to solidify light which comes in very handy (bought as a Useful).  Willpower Bid isn't a bad flaw if you have the pool to guarantee success (or lots of Will)

Now you can buy say 10d in it and still have 15 points to put into Willpower or Base Will.  I'd probably go with 7d +2hd though, HD are awesome for Defense with Interferance.  That would be 66 points for powers and 9 points left for will.

Chris Fougere

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Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 05:29:34 -0700
From: shark...@hotmail.com
To: cult-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ORE] [WT] Character help!

Hey guys! So, me and my gaming group have picked up Wild Talents... But I seem to have drawn the short straw when it comes to understanding the game, as I just don't seem to GET character creation, so my character is rather... Under powered...

Our group, so far, is a good guy magneto (able to whip around metal objects for defense, offense, and just about anything), Thorn man (Basically he's turned into a plant like being, and is covered in thorns, which hurts anyone that attacks him in melee, this also gives him a great brawling skill), and Doc. Oc. (Ok, not really, but he's got watery, jelly-fish tentacles coming out of his back that he can use to attack, defend and move around with), We also have sound man, but he hasn't shown up for the past month, so we're not too sure about him... Anyway, I wanted to play the support guy, a Lightbender (the ability to manipulate and control light, make it change color and all that), and use a bunch of dazzling effects to disrupt and daze his enemies. Right now, though, it seems like I need all the points in the WORLD to make this character work, and I've only got 75 points (at character creation) to spend on them.

See, the story is that at one time everyone was normal, then BAM, suddenly people changed... And are now not normal. To compensate for this, at character creation, we have 150 points to spend, but the first 75 of them are to be used to make a normal person (As, it was deemed, an average person would have 2d in every stat (60pts), and 3d in an occupation (15pts), this isn't how EVERYONE is built, but that's Mr. Average). So we get 75 points that CAN'T go towards powers, which seems fair.

But then we get Mr. jellyfish who has an awesome attack power that only costs 3 points (It was to a point where we had to nerf it, and engulf is a dirty extra >.>). Thorn man who has super claws and damaging armor, Magneto who's magneto... And my guy, who's basically a flashbang without the bang... and even then, the flash isn't THAT great... So can I get some help with power creation?

See, I want my character to be (later on in his career) an awesome manipulator of light, maybe to a point of illusions, but mostly razzle dazzle, disrupty stuff. Currently, though, my bread and butter power is just so darned expensive, I don't know if it's built right (Even with the DM's help, who is new to the system), and it's not NEARLY as effective as I had hoped. Here's the stats.

It's a Utility power, with the Daze, radius, spray and go first extras, and obvious and focus (glove), and a second effect of Attached Utility, Interference... All bundled for 8 points. This power is massive in what it CAN do, but it doesn't ever DO it. Since I have to roll it as a multiple action (that's what the spray in the daze effect is for), I have to roll multiple successes for both to go off, which means I need to pump a lot of dice (and points) into the power. With the remaining character points, I can put an equivalent of 9d into the power (Though, 2hd in the power would be sick with the interference attachment, since it's been ruled that the daze doesn't have to work for the interference to go off), and almost nothing else... Plus it doesn't fit that character theme that I really wanted to go for (a light manipulator that can daze and confuse with rapid changing color and intensities of light). I like the concept, basically shut down everyone, but when the power "Bind" is only 4 points, and can be just as effective, why would I spend double the points? Plus, this particular power feels more like a defensive mechanism then a utility mechanism...

Another problem is that my area of occupation is rather... Specific... He's a light-show host at a club, If there's a band, a DJ, or anyone else, he's the guy you call for the lights... But that, as an occupation, doesn't DO much for heroing (Endurance is wrapped into that, at least, streetwise, preform (lightshow), Scrutiny, Persuade, and various, modern knowledges). So he doesn't have a defensive skill (like dodge), or an ATTACK skill (any weapon or brawling), and his STATS aren't great, as well (having 1d strength, 1d coordination, 1d sense, 2d mind, 3d charm, 2d command), and 2 points in a contact (who's, honestly, kind of useless). That's all with the initial 75 points...

Right now, I'm just feeling amazingly underpowered compared to the rest of the guys at the table, and it showed last night, so how can I build this character as the badass-to-be light-wielder that I initially imagined, and not just some, spastic, Flash grenade that may not work? (For obvious reasons, we're trying to avoid the "Variable" and "Augment" extra's, but if those would actually help the cause, then explain it to me as to why)

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[Matt]

Not to be too critical but 150 pt characters are at the low end of the power scale. I know wonders can be worked for 75 pts but you need to have a really sound grasp of the "acceptable cheese" that the creators intended. 

You might fair well by breaking the power up into a bunch of limited effect powers that are more about support.

Strobe/Disco Ball/Dazzle 2/4/8 per die

Useful 2, Touch -2, radius 2, limited targets 1, daze 1, duration 2, if/then light source-1, if/then targets must be able to see him -1, Obvious-1, Depleted -1

This power blinds all selected targets in a 10 yard range around the hero for a short time. Resisted by Body+Endurance. 4hd is 16pts and likely to give you a major role in any melee combat as every enemy has to make a 4x10 resistance check or be blind and suffer a 4d penalty. this power can only be used 4 times before you have to "recharge" and you only get 4 recharges before you need to somehow recharge those (I'm a fan of zeta beam exposure but you could just as easily say you need to eat 3lbs of ham). 

Fairy Dust/Chaff/Rainbow Wall/Razzle 4/8/16

Defends, Touch 1, Radius 2, Interfering 3, Duration 2, No Upward Limit 2, If/then light source -1, Obvious -1, if/then no effect unless trying to see through edge -1, if/then no effect on foes that do not use visual data to target -1, Willpower Cost -2

At 4/8/16 provides a valuable trick for 3hd (24pts). You activate it on round one, it costs a minimum of 6WP, but you can increase its Width by 1 per additional WP spent, so it's an absolute defense in a pinch.  It rings you and everyone inside in a 10 yard radius bubble of light. Targets outside can't see in and require attacks of at least 5 width to hit anything. Inside the ring there's no effect, but anything inside the ring is in range of your Disco Dazzler power. With no upward limit you could also opt to "roll" both light wall and disco ball on round one, you'll have 6 HD, use 4 for the full effect Dazzle and 2+additional WP to get a decent defense. 

Note: the Touch Capacity has a stealth advantage, normally you add range to allow defends qualities to affect others but since we're going for an area it's unnecessary, touch is normally a flaw but in this instance it's better than self so I gave it a +1 value. This pulls double duty since you can also "dump" the effect on an item and flee behind it or (for large Willpower cost) slap one on a bunch of enemies so they run around in there own little bubbles (I rule radius can be scaled below the normal max) so a foe in his own 1yard radius bubble is all but blind.

Ok so we've spent 24 and 16 is 40 pts. Leaves 35.

Let's take 5 and give you another stat die so you don't have so many 1s. 

30 pts. If you want to feel powerful then you probably want a power with some punch, default attack powers do SK, sounds punchy, you only need 1 spray die to eliminate multiple action penalties, lots of spray are meant to compensate for a lack of raw power or skill. But we can get pretty cheesy if we want. 

They're All Ants! 1/2/4

Attacks 3, range, Spray +1, Speeding Bullet +2, if/then light source -1, Full Power Only -1, Slow -2, Obvious-1

So for this power you can get 4d+6wd for 28pts. It can only be dodged by targets with Coordination 6+. To mitigate the lethality it can only be used every other round. It does W+1 SK, with the spray you can declare up to 5 attacks and be guaranteed to hit them all. You can also aim for the head and probably one shot anything that isn't supremely fast and well armored. Another limiting factor is the excessive lethality of this power, you always roll the full dice pool, it always does full damage so if you're targeting a single foe and you don't want to kill him spread the damage to multiple hit locations but keep in mind that will slow your resolution speed (lower width). 

You can opt to refluff your disco ball power as something that creates "illusions" in the eyes of selected targets and the daze as a quasi hypnotic effect. That would allow you to use it as a supplement for your Light DJ side job. 

Sorry if this ranged too far afield from what you were looking for. Good Luck!

-Matt Conlon

[BronyPwny]

Honestly, Matt, you just showed me how powers can be rediculouse, looking at that attack power, it's easy to add the flaw (Limited damage: Shock, maybe switch for "Full Power Only") and not even HAVE to worry about killing people (Which my character IS kinda against...), Thus making it cost less, to gain more... I could also tool it to be able to be used in my light show career also (what's a good lightshow without lasers!) Kill the lethality some more, make it not slow. And these are great responses, it's giving me idea's on how to actually build powers. Right now, I don't think any of our "Themed" characters have any "If/then" flaws, which, come to think of it, means that they don't need a specific trigger to do anything they want (including mine...) It seems that, without the "If/then" flaw, then the power can be fluffed in any way as long as it does the same effect.

BUT, in looking at these... I'm beginning to realize that this may not be the game for our group >.>... Our DM doesn't like Hard Dice or Wiggle Dice as it then turns the game into "Who's got the better numbers," and instead he's just telling a glorified story, he also doesn't like them because then the character doesn't fail... at all... Forever... Dunno, he's not a bad DM, this is just a new system, and I'm not entirely sure any of us know how it's ACTUALLY supposed to work. I'll talk to him about it, and we'll probably have to use ANOTHER session to redefine all of our characters. Honestly, I could find this fun, as this is supposed to be an RPG, and my actions as a character should take effect more often then not... I think we just have to get over our prejudice against wiggle dice (Or "I win" Dice as my group kind thinks of them).

Another problem we have is that we're a group of 5 now... And we only have 2 books... None of which are mine, so I can't "easily" look at a book and learn it myself. That's half the reason why I turned to here... Anyway I'll need to explain to the DM about the mechanics of the game and see if he still wants to run it, I hope he does, but I'm not sure what he'll think of the "Acceptable cheese." Hmmm, knowing this, now, I may also be able to get him to realize why "Self Only" is, in fact, a penalty, and not just a pointless flaw that doesn't do much unless in very specific cases... If my thinking is correct on the matter... That's flaw, much like the extras "Variable" and "Augment." (two of which I'll probably ask about later) that doesn't make much sense in our eyes...

I think there's a lot more thinking that's going to have to go into the game before we can successfully play it.... But I think, if things can get settled, it could be a fun game.

Also, thanks a TON for the help, this is helping me wrap my head around power generation a LOT, but I'm sure I'll have a TON more questions as things progress.

[Allan Goodall]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 5:49 AM, BronyPwny <shark...@hotmail.com> wrote:

BUT, in looking at these... I'm beginning to realize that this may not be the game for our group >.>... Our DM doesn't like Hard Dice or Wiggle Dice as it then turns the game into "Who's got the better numbers," and instead he's just telling a glorified story, he also doesn't like them because then the character doesn't fail... at all... Forever... Dunno, he's not a bad DM, this is just a new system, and I'm not entirely sure any of us know how it's ACTUALLY supposed to work.

While hard and wiggle dice mean that you succeed, their use can limit how well you succeed. Wiggle dice are 4 times as expensive as regular dice. This has some important ramifications.

The number of dice in your pool determines the capacity of your power. Let's look at a character with 8d compared to a character with 2wd. They both cost the same. The guy with 8d will usually succeed. The guy with 2wd will always succeed (except when penalties are assessed) and can choose his level of success. But, the 2wd character will always only have a width of 2. A guy with 8d will sometimes have a width of 3, maybe even 4.

More importantly, the number of dice in the pool determine the upper range of a character's abilities. How fast you can move or how much you can lift is determined by the number of dice in the pool. That guy with 2wd in flight will always succeed, but he's going to be way slower than the guy with 8d. In a flying dash, the guy with 8d may have trouble getting into the air to begin with while the other guy is flying right from the start, but once the first guy gets airborne a lot faster than the guy with 2wd. How much faster? How about 5 miles an hour versus over 300 miles an hour?

Then there are the multiple actions rules. You get to do one thing for free. If you want to do the same thing twice in a round, you drop one die and look for two sets. That's not possible for the guy with 2wd. He'd be far better off taking 4d+1wd, as he will at least have a chance of making two successes (he'd be rolling 3d, looking for a matching set, and then matching his wd to whatever is left over, but at least it is possible). The 8d character has a better chance of rolling two successes (as his pool would be 7d).

If the character wants to to do two different things at once, he drops 1d as a penalty but then he rolls the smallest dice pool. If you have 8d in Climb Walls and 4d+1wd in Martial Arts Attack, and you want to do the Neo from the Matrix thing of running up a wall and kicking a guard in one attack, you'll have to drop 1d from your 4d+1wd pool and hope for two successes on your 3d+1wd roll. Again, you might be better off taking both pools at 8d.

Hard dice look like they're a bargain in this respect. They always roll 10 and they are only twice the price of regular dice. The problem is that you can never choose to "tone down" your use of hard dice. You have to roll all of them. And you can't take a regular die to soak up a multiple action, as the hard dice are lost first. (Okay, you can add 1 regular die to 4hd, but you'll lose one of the hard dice and you'd only have a 10% chance that the regular die would roll a 10 and match the three hard dice).

4hd looks better on paper than 2wd, but you still can't do two actions and you can never choose to ramp down your attack. Want to shoot the gun out of someone's hand? You can't. When firing a gun you're always in such a rage that you always try for the kill shot.

Hard dice are for powers you don't ever want to fail (like a shield, or armour) or for Hulk-like attacks. If your GM doesn't like them, there are other dice you can use instead, such as expert dice, where you can set them to any number, but you can't set two or more expert dice in the pool to the same number.

The other aspect of Wild Talents (and, even more so, Godlike) that goes hand-in-hand with the hard and wiggle dice is the use of Willpower. The game plays best with Willpower. It doesn't matter if wiggle dice always succeed if you are out of Willpower. Depending on the flaws used, hard and wiggle dice eat through Willpower much more quickly than regular dice. In the case of Godlike, wiggle and hard dice don't allow you to roll dice, so you can't roll a natural 10 to gain 1 Will point (a rule that can also be used in Wild Talents).
 

Hmmm, knowing this, now, I may also be able to get him to realize why "Self Only" is, in fact, a penalty, and not just a pointless flaw that doesn't do much unless in very specific cases... If my thinking is correct on the matter... That's flaw, much like the extras "Variable" and "Augment." (two of which I'll probably ask about later) that doesn't make much sense in our eyes...

There's a tendency for players to go through the extras and say, "How do I fit this into my power". That's when Augment and Variable Effect most often leave players scratching their heads.

Instead, those two extras are there to answer the question, "This is what I want my power to do, but how do I do that?" They aren't like other extras, where you can go down the list and pick and choose to beef up any old power. They are there to make certain types of powers possible within the rules. Variable Effect and Augment won't be used very often, but when they are you'll be glad they are there.

Variable Effect is for building a single power that can be used in many different ways. Variable Effect is not something you'd likely add to, say, flying. But it's a great extra if your power is sorcery. If you want to build a Doctor Strange character, Variable Effect is your friend. Create one all-encompassing power and use Variable Effect to make it do different things. Sometimes you use it to fly, other times you use it to attack, and another time you use it to pick a lock, or to read someone's mind.

Augment is similar. You have a dice pool you can add to other powers or dice rolls (for example, skills, or other powers). It's for powers that boost other dice pools.

You can build characters for years and never once use Variable Effect or Augment. You could build Dr. Strange without Variable Effect simply by defining all of his abilities as separate powers. These extras are there because some builds are easier or more efficient when using them, and they can be more fun to play because the abilities aren't limited at character creation.

--
Allan Goodall            http://www.hyperbear.com
awgo...@gmail.com

[matt conlon]

1. WT2E Essential Edition was on DrivethruRPG for 5 dollars digital when I got mine, I can even load it from my phone (iPhone 4).

 

2. WT and ORE games in general are crunchy but tend to lack the amount of swing many of us grew up with in D&D and other games with Critical successes and botches.  This can be a boon or bane depending on taste.  Old School DnD and even 4E with some tweaking meant a Crit could destroy a final encounter as someone 1 shots a boss.  In old White Wolf games botching could result in your death or permanent removal from play.  Some people like that kind of thing, I can do without it but I understand that's a personal preference.

 

to me the real advantage is that it might take a week to put a PC together just right, but once you actually run a combat each round might take a minute or two, compared to many other games where complex rule interactions and idiosyncracies can make each Action take several minutes to resolve.

 

3.  Hard and Wiggle Dice are only as great as the powers they represent.  A 10hd Attack is devastating, but not the instant win if the power has the Goes Last or Limited Width Flaw (Goes Last might mean you only use the power when you're in no danger, Limited Width might mean you just want an effect that happens FIRST).  By keeping track of character Passions and Loyalties a GM can greatly hinder the viability of Hard and Wiggle Dice, this means he has to hit your character where it hurts but that's good drama and should be fun.  How cool was it when Doctor Octopus tried to marry Peter's Aunt May?

 

The great expense of Wiggle dice makes them optimally used to insure some minimum but variable level of success, you stick 1wd in a power so that it always happens.  If it's an attack you can reliably make called shots to the head or hand etc, but those are likely to resolve on Width 2 which might not penetrate even weak armor or minor defenses.  Hard Dice in attack powers can be more trouble than their worth since even Shock Only powers with too many will kill someone which means every use is a Command/Stability roll because you know this is attempted murder, fail that and you lose half your Willpower and flee or sacrifice the rest of it which turns those Hard Dice into regular dice anyway.

4. About Variable Effect and Augment: I still steer well clear of them, the exception being something supremely obvious.

 

Good luck either way.

 

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[BronyPwny]

Hmmm... How freely should Willpower flow, then? It sounds like this is a resource that you have to carefully monitor... But should replenish easily so you have enough to do more, later. Also, what's "Too cheesy?" I'm guessing taking the "Self only" Flaw on a defensive power is kinda moot, as most defensive powers ARE self only (though, that does limit the extra's you take on the power, if the power is built to only protect you anyway, Self only is one of those flaws where it's like "Yea, duh, Defense is ALWAYS self only unless stated otherwise."), or am I wrong in thinking defense is always self only unless you take touch/range on it? Also, what's the general ruling on if a power fails (no pairs are rolled)? Does it miss? does it not activate? Or does that depend on the power? This is generally important for flaws like "willpower cost," and, honestly, is up to my GM, but I like to know how others rule it.



(Rambling ahead...)

Also, I told my DM about the light laser power attack thing, and he determined that the flaw "Full power only" shouldn't have been taken, as I have found a way around that flaw such as to make it pointless. This confused me because the flaw makes sense... As a matter of fact, all of the powers that have been made make sense, on paper, but it's only when one realizes what the power can do for how much is when people go a little nuts. We don't like cheesy tactics/power gaming in our games, as someone always knows how to do it, and it makes the rest have to try to compensate or feel worthless ("I can take a lot of damage" Says little Timmy... "Yea? Well I can take a lot of damage AND DEAL a lot of damage!" Say bully Sean.), but it sounds like this game is all about that ruling the system. And it's not like the flaws aren't flaws, it's just that working around the flaws, adding the right kind and mix of dice to the powers, and everything else just make them null, and therefore extra, discounted points to make the power cheap and powerful... But isn't that what you're supposed to do? Even in real LIFE we try to work around our flaws, master them, and even make them work in our favor, if we can. That dude with no legs, but instead has prosthetic legs, ran and completed the Ironman race! Sure, he wasn't first, but he at least did it. Sorry if this seems like rambling, but it's me justifying the fact of adding flaws that can, and have been, worked around.

I almost want to akin this game to a TCG. All TCG's have rules. You can only draw one card. You can only play one resource. You can only attack once. Etc... But then you play a card that allows you to "Draw a card," or "Play an extra resource," Or something like that, basically you break/change/add to the rules of the system, and whoever has the better rule breaking hand/deck will win the game. Powers, in this game, seem to be very much the same. The rules say "You have to discard one die if you want to do multiple actions," to which a power, with spray, says "Actually, gain a die." Or "Powers only do the effect that has been written." To which variable replies "Well, actually, I can fly, and later fire lightning bolts at people."

Anyway, those last walls of text were just me rambling and trying to wrap my head around the system and how it's supposed to work, and if my GM is being to strict in his thinking (which is understandable, it's a new game, so it's usually either "Oh wow, we did things wrong and now everything's out of hand," or "we're doing things BY THE BOOK until I know the system better." But this book is super confusing...)

[Shane Ivey]

> Also, what's "Too cheesy?" I'm guessing taking the "Self only" Flaw on a defensive power is kinda moot, as most defensive powers ARE self only

The rules explicitly say that the Defense quality has the Self capacity by default.

They also say that the fundamental rule for Flaws is that you don't get points back if it doesn't actually reduce the functionality of the power.

So taking "Self Only" to give the Self capacity to a quality that already has the Self capacity does not reduce the quality's cost.

Wild Talents in many places says outright that it's a game about building any powers you want, and therefore it requires the players and the GM to work together and agree on what things are worth and what's appropriate. Common sense in the literal meaning of that term is crucial.

If you approach power-building competitively like a card game, trying to outdo everyone else and especially the GM, you will probably break the game -- we basically made it to be breakable under those circumstances in order to allow maximum flexibility and creativity -- and you will definitely reduce the odds of everyone having a good time.

All of which is not to say don't do it your way or only have fun my way. Just remember that Wild Talents is about everybody in the group having fun playing their characters. Building powers is just one step toward that goal, and the engine works best when you collaborate with the others.

[BronyPwny]

And therein lies the problem with my group... Everyone is VERY individual... We hardly talk other then the nights that we game, so collaborating amongst us isn't, really, something we do...

Come to think of it... Ehn, that'd just go into a large rant. Thanks a ton for the help. I may ask more questions, but I think most of my thoughts have been sated for now. I'll probably play around with power generation for a bit, maybe ask some questions that pertain to said powers, figure things out. I was able to get the book from my GM the other day, so I have it on me to reference (again, a major flaw with us, 5 people, 2 books). I'll look forward to talking with you guys some more XD

[Chris Fougere]

I've always found that a group that doesn't communicate is bound to have issues regardless of the game setting.  That may be a point to bring up with your group, that RPGs require a group effort.  Especially games that adopt what is referred to as "competence porn", which Wild Talents can easily fit into with its Hard Dice and Wiggle Dice.  The term (often used in reference to Leverage, but could easily apply to Ocean's 11, The Avengers, and so many other things) is when the characters are so good at things they rarely if ever fail.  The story is about why they do things, how they overcome obstacles not whether or not they do. 

Wild Talents is my go to game for superheroics (and the ORE is rapidly becoming a favorite generic system) for just that reason.  I don't want to tell a story about the time the PCs failed to stop a bank robbery every time.  I like them to be competent, to be able to do the things they're supposed to do and do them well.  If I want a less certain game, simply dial back the points.

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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 05:51:00 -0700
From: shark...@hotmail.com
To: cult-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ORE] [WT] Character help!

And therein lies the problem with my group... Everyone is VERY individual... We hardly talk other then the nights that we game, so collaborating amongst us isn't, really, something we do...

Come to think of it... Ehn, that'd just go into a large rant. Thanks a ton for the help. I may ask more questions, but I think most of my thoughts have been sated for now. I'll probably play around with power generation for a bit, maybe ask some questions that pertain to said powers, figure things out. I was able to get the book from my GM the other day, so I have it on me to reference (again, a major flaw with us, 5 people, 2 books). I'll look forward to talking with you guys some more XD

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[Matt]

Not to belabor it but how did you work around Full Power, was it the limited damage Shock?  

If that's the case here's the deal- 

1. Shock doesn't mean you can't kill someone, it just Takes longer, also Fullpower means you always use the full Width so a lucky roll is even more likely to kill (normally if you roll 5x10 you could choose a pair of 10s, but with Full Power you have to go with 5x10)

2. To me It's a thematically inappropriate flaw so the GM has every right to go either way (no Shock or no full power).  After all, you're shooting a laser not sunburning. Lasers either cut things in half or light them on fire, otherwise they're light shows which you already have a power for...

That's the real key, getting the theme of the power to jive with the flaws, rather than trying to squeeze out the points just make something you know will be fun, sometimes you can/have to tweak to get what you want which involves a compromise.

Also, defends are always Self Only, thats never a flaw on Defends. 

-Matt Conlon

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[Matt]

Ah, as a GM I have found the best solution for my games is to ask players for a description of their character and his/her powers and then I build it. That way I can apply the same methodology to each, be it hyper efficiency or concept over execution. 

What I would recommend, which is time intensive for all, but as stated the game is front loaded with crunch so that play is smooth, is to have each player describe their character, build it and then have the GM build it, so the GM has an idea of what you're looking for and maybe how to do it, then can sort of rebalance it for interactive play.

Also, email. Email. Email. That's what attachments are for...

-Matt Conlon

On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:51 AM, BronyPwny <shark...@hotmail.com> wrote:

And therein lies the problem with my group... Everyone is VERY individual... We hardly talk other then the nights that we game, so collaborating amongst us isn't, really, something we do...

Come to think of it... Ehn, that'd just go into a large rant. Thanks a ton for the help. I may ask more questions, but I think most of my thoughts have been sated for now. I'll probably play around with power generation for a bit, maybe ask some questions that pertain to said powers, figure things out. I was able to get the book from my GM the other day, so I have it on me to reference (again, a major flaw with us, 5 people, 2 books). I'll look forward to talking with you guys some more XD

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[BronyPwny]

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If that's the case here's the deal- 

1. Shock doesn't mean you can't kill someone, it just Takes longer, also Fullpower means you always use the full Width so a lucky roll is even more likely to kill (normally if you roll 5x10 you could choose a pair of 10s, but with Full Power you have to go with 5x10)

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Alright, I never wanted the character to do killing damage in the first place, so here's the reasoning I can think of behind the damage limit. The power fires beams, but not lasers, as lasers implies that the light has been amplified by a stimulus of emitted radiation... Ok, I just wanted to say that... But it's not really a laser at all, just a high intensity beam of light, to a point where, yea, in fact, it does just cause massive burns (I won't say "sun" burns, because that requires the power of the sun). The only reason why I said "replace full power" was because it was, in my opinion, getting to a point where it DID look like I was begging for more points, and since the full power only and the damage limit flaw are both 1 point, then it felt like an easy, natural switch. BUT, it could be ruled that since I WANT the power to do shock damage anyway, and that's what my character does, then the damage limit flaw could easily be a zero point flaw, and i could keep the full power flaw.

I also know that, yes, you can kill with enough shock damage, but I understood it's a LOT harder to do so, which is why I am pushing for the damage limit. My character is about lights, changing them, making them brighter, dimmer, and overall controlling them, but not changing the physics of the light. He can't make UV light any other type of light in the light spectrum. That's why i was looking for daze and interfere effects, rather then pure attacks, as the attack really didn't make a bunch of sense in the first place (how do you damage with unmodified light?) but the power works well with the theme of the character (lightshows and lasers go hand-in-hand), so having it seems rather natural. Heck we could switch the power from being an attack to a useful ability, take out the attack only extras and flaws, and make it an interfere/daze ability somehow, that'd probably work out better, that way it ISN'T a damaging ability, it's just a sudden beam of light that catches people off guard and makes them see spots for a round.
 
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Also, defends are always Self Only, thats never a flaw on Defends. 

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Yarp, I caught that, and am now borrowing the book, so I've been able to read up on everything. To a point where I think I've wrapped my head around variable and augment. Now that I know how powers are built, they make a lot more sense.

[Matt]

On Jul 23, 2012, at 8:55 PM, BronyPwny <shark...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> . BUT, it could be ruled that since I WANT the power to do shock damage anyway, and that's what my character does, then the damage limit flaw could easily be a zero point flaw, and i could keep the full power flaw.
>
> I also know that, yes, you can kill with enough shock damage, but I understood it's a LOT harder to do so, which is why I am pushing for the damage limit. My character is about lights, changing them, making them brighter, dimmer, and overall controlling them, but not changing the physics of the light. He can't make UV light any other type of light in the light spectrum. That's why i was looking for daze and interfere effects, rather then pure attacks, as the attack really didn't make a bunch of sense in the first place (how do you damage with unmodified light?) but the power works well with the theme of the character (lightshows and lasers go hand-in-hand), so having it seems rather natural. Heck we could switch the power from being an attack to a useful ability, take out the attack only extras and flaws, and make it an interfere/daze ability somehow, that'd probably work out better, that way it ISN'T a damaging ability, it's just a sudden beam of light that catches people off guard and makes them see spots for a round.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought you meant you had inferred a way to take the Full Power flaw but not really suffer a penalty and that perhaps that was a misunderstanding of Shock damage as inherently nonlethal. You've clarified that isn't the case.

While the character can't make UV light any other type of light (because you say so, not because the rules prevent that from being the case, or at least as I built the powers) it's possible that if you had Sun or moonlight available (or expensive tanning bulbs) and a Variable effect power with an If/then Light manipulation flaw you could filter out all the other frequencies of light and have pure UV Rays which might illuminate things (like body fluids or invisible ink) or be used to burn things if focused.

As for damaging with unmodified light, hold a magnifying glass in place under the sun, that's why the power name I used was "They're All Ants!" Magnification is just a focusing mechanism channeling photons into a more narrow or broader path (expanding an image on one side of the lens and focusing the light to point on the other). essentially a complicated form of reflection or refraction.

Modifying light by changing color is refraction or filtering. If you defined your character's power as Photon Manipulation you could probably justify almost anything with it, altering the wave-like properties to create material forms, propelling yourself at near light speed on photonic waves, inducing atomic fission etc. I digress. Light is a byproduct of an immensely powerful phenomena in the cosmos and (maybe the second) fastest thing in a vacuum so there's no reason you can't be as powerful as you want.

I don't recommend not having a damaging effect handy, light shows don't open locks, knock down doors or send a message to a gang leader that you're not to be messed with, but if you have a decent brawl pool, or a gun you're covered there so play as you like.

It seems somewhere we started working at cross purposes. Your Initial post was a request for help giving your character a little oomph so he contributed to the party on par with the Magneto clone. I did my best to provide an example of effective and efficient uses of your points that weren't I win buttons or powers that replaced stats and skills (like Cosmic power, it can essentially be turned into any "Solve This!" for enough Willpower). I encourage you to explore the possibilities on your own (especially since you have a copy of the book yourself).

Good Luck!

-Matt

[BronyPwny]

Hey guys... I bet you thought I forgot about this little thread... Opting, instead, to make a new character... Well I didn't forget, and have a question!

So I had to give back the book last night (I might splurge and buy one for myself, just so that I don't have to keep borrowing it from other people >.<), but I thought came to me as I was working last night... What DOES Interfering DO on a defensive skill that isn't Armored, and doesn't have a duration? So the power was something like...

Interfering Defense! (5/10/20)
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Defend; Self; Interfering (+3)

This defense interferes with the attackers attack! (duh...)
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So... Say you had 3 hard dice in this ability, and decided to do nothing but defend against an attacker this round. As I remember it, a defense power is rolled against the attacker, and you gain gobble dice equal to your width, but can only get rid of dice from your height or lower... But isn't that also what interfering does? So would that mean that, effectively, this power's defensive capabilities have been double by just adding interfering? (guess it makes sense, as it basically doubles the pointage). Or am I mistaken in what a defensive power, or the interfering extra, does?

[Shane Ivey]

Without Interference, the defense's gobble dice apply only against attacks of lower Width, or the same Width but equal or lower Height. 

With Interference, the Width of the attack roll doesn't matter. It interferes no matter how fast the attacker acts.

Sent from my iPhone

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[BronyPwny]

So... Does Interference "Act first" in this case? So, say, I got a 3x10 against an attack that scored a 6x10. Would the Interference hit that 6x10, knocking down to a 3x10, and then would the defense kick in, killing 2 of those 3 attacking 10's? Or, since it has the interference extra, would the defense happen first, and since it's now "Spent," the attack would hit on it's new 3x10?

[Chris Fougere]

Interference means that the Defends Quality acts against all attacks of its Height or lower.  If you have 3hd it means that all attacks against the character are reduced by 3.  Normal Defense (using Gobble Dice) with 3hd means that you have 3 gobble dice to use against attacks but once those 3 are used up that round they're no longer available.

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Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 06:35:28 -0700
From: shark...@hotmail.com
To: cult-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [ORE] [WT] Character help!

So... Does Interference "Act first" in this case? So, say, I got a 3x10 against an attack that scored a 6x10. Would the Interference hit that 6x10, knocking down to a 3x10, and then would the defense kick in, killing 2 of those 3 attacking 10's? Or, since it has the interference extra, would the defense happen first, and since it's now "Spent," the attack would hit on it's new 3x10?

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[Shane Ivey]

Interference means that the Defends Quality acts against all attacks of its Height or lower.  If you have 3hd it means that all attacks against the character are reduced by 3.  Normal Defense (using Gobble Dice) with 3hd means that you have 3 gobble dice to use against attacks but once those 3 are used up that round they're no longer available.

By default, Intereference gobble dice still can be used only once per Interference action, so they can run out.

You attack with 4x8 and 3x6 in the same action, I block with 2x2 with Interference: My block gobbles two of your x8 dice and that's it, so you hit at 3x6 and 2x8.

That's different with a long-term Interference power using an extra like Duration. The long-term extra automatically gives a new Interference set against every attack. Same example: My long-term 2x2 Interference defense reduces your 4x8 to 2x8 and then kicks in again automatically to reduce your 3x6 to 1x6, making it fail.

Does that make sense?

--
Shane Ivey, Arc Dream Publishing
Cthulhu Mythos gaming, every quarter: TheUnspeakableOath.com

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[Brian Moore]

Excellent discussion thread. My friend and I have ALMOST played Godlike or Wild Talents a number of times, but when we begin designing powers, we tend to get bogged down in all the design details and then lose our ambition. I believe we just over-think the game sometimes. It's the over-analysis leading to paralysis phenomenon. And some of our players are not very good about learning the rules of the games we play. They show up, play their characters, roll the dice they are instructed, and are done. Some of them never even as much as thumb through the actual texts. This makes Matt's approach (players, tell me what you want in a character and I'll build it for you) ideal for our group, and our GM, who is much more invested in RPGs than anyone in the group, has taken the same approach in the interest of simplifying character creation or saving time, preventing us from having to devote a gaming session where the only thing that we accomplish is making characters, not playing the game.

I love that I've discovered the group. I love the ArcDream/ORE game line, and it's great that the company provides so many resources and feedback to players. There's a great gaming community here.

[Matt Conlon]

Shane, was that a typo or do you mean a 2x2 defense roll with interfering can weenie down rolls with greater height?  did you mean 2x8/9/10?  I know interfering gets a kind of "ultra goes first" effect as interfering powers determine their effect before any other roll is parsed, but does interfering also mean height is eliminated as a factor for rolled powers?

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[Shane Ivey]

"Interference" trumps Width for speed but the Height still must be high enough.

--
Shane Ivey, Arc Dream Publishing

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