Phablet stocking stuffers: iPhone 7 versus LG Stylo 3 Plus price/performance hardware comparison

[harry newton]

I just picked up a couple of $130 Costco LG Stylo 3 Plus phones as
last-minute stocking stuffers, where I ran the following hardware-only
comparison below.
<http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/12/24/stylophones.jpg>

I try to always only speak valid verifiable fact on Usenet.

Did I do a fair hardware comparison below of the two stocking stuffers?
If not, what hardware spec comparison did I miss?

(NOTE: It's not fair to iOS to perform an app functionality comparison
because there are scores of app functionalities on Android all by its itty
bitty self not on iOS and none on iOS not already on Android - so this is
only about the hardware comparison because all iOS devices lose in an
app-functionality comparison to almost any Android phone).

*HARDWARE COMPARISON OF STOCKING SUFFERS: iPhone 7 Plus vs Stylo 3 Plus:*
Price: The Stylo was $130; while the iPhone is ~$670 (~five times more!)
CPU: The Stylo has 8 cores; while the iPhone has only 4
CPU top speed: iPhone is 2.34GHz for 2 cores; Stylo is 1.4GHz for 4 cores
CPU lower speed: iPhone is 1.1GHz for 2 cores; Stylo is 1.1GHz for 4 cores
Storage: Both are 32GB
Expandable: Stylo expands to 2TB; iPhone is missing this functionality
Screen size: Stylo is 5.7 inches; iPhone is 5.5 inches
Display type: Both are IPS LCD
Pixel density: iPhone is 401ppi; Stylo is 386ppi
Screen resolution: both are the same at full HD 1080x1920 pixels
Main camera: Stylo rear camera is 13MP, while the iPhone 7 is 12MP
Selfie camera: iPhone is 7MP with flash; Stylo is 5MP with flash
Video: both are the same full HD at 1920x1080pixels at 30fps
Wi-Fi: both are the same at 802.11 everything up to ac, dual band
VoLTE: both are the same
NFC: both have NFC
Sensors: both have the same stuff
Bands: both have what is needed for the T-Mobile carrier we often use
Bluetooth: both are the same spec at version 4.2
Battery ease: Stylo is removable; while the iPhone 7 is not
Battery capacity: Stylo is 3080mAh, while the iPhone 7 is 2900mAh but no
RAM: iPhone 7 is 3GB while the Stylo is 2GB
Fingerprint sensor: iPhone 7 is on front; Stylo is on the back
SIM: Both are single nano SIM
Network: Both seem to support the same networks
Stylus: Stylo has a stylus; iPhone 7 is missing this functionality
FM Radio: Stylo has an FM radio; iPhone 7 is missing this functionality
Headphone: Stylo has a courageous jack; iPhone 7 is lost functionality
Wordsize: Both are 64-bit

The specs seems similar but the price is a whopping 5X difference.
Did I miss an important hardware spec to compare the two phablets?

As stocking stuffers...
Q: Which do you think, based on hardware, has better price:performance?

REFERENCES:
<https://www.gadgetsnow.com/compare-mobile-phones/LG-Stylo-3-Plus-vs-Apple-iPhone-7-Plus>
<https://www.phonearena.com/phones/compare/LG-Stylo-3-Plus,Apple-iPhone-7-Plus/phones/10534%2C9816>
<http://membershipwireless.com/50699/apple-iphone-7-plus-black-32gb/activationtype/new>
<http://membershipwireless.com/52734/stylo-3-plus/activationtype/new>

[nospam]

In article <p1oq0s$1ch3$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

>
> Did I do a fair hardware comparison below of the two stocking stuffers?

no, but you aren't interested in fair anything. you hate apple, so get
the android phone.

unless of course, you just want to troll.

[Bob]

On 12/24/2017 1:01 PM, harry newton wrote:
> I just picked up a couple of $130 Costco LG Stylo 3 Plus phones as
> last-minute stocking stuffers, where I ran the following hardware-only
> comparison below.

When buying smartphones, make sure they have the WPA2 KRACK patch available.

I got a couple 18-month-old Verizon branded HTC phones that the manufacturer no longer issues security patch updates so no more HTC phones for me.

AFAIK, Apple has patched the WPA2 KRACK vulnerability in their phones.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:19:35 -0500:

>> Did I do a fair hardware comparison below of the two stocking stuffers?
>
> no, but you aren't interested in fair anything. you hate apple, so get
> the android phone.

As you know, I own and have bought plenty of Apple and Android devices.
They each have their strengths and weaknesses.

And, as you well know, I very often give iPhones and iPads as gifts.\
For gifts, what matters is what the kids want, and how much that costs.

When giving stocking stuffers, the fundamental price-to-performance ratio
is a key factor - because you want the most bang for your buck.

For your own personal phone, as I did with mine, I bought the best there
was at the time it was made, and I've been happy ever since.

But for a stocking stuffer - you care more about price-to-performance.
Hence why I ran the hardware comparison (I know the software already).

This is my first "phablet" as a gift, where I figured I'd put a few in the
stockings as a last-minute gift - so I didn't spend a lot of time on the
hardware comparison.

I'm thinking of picking up a few more of these phablets, but some of the
kids I'll be giving them to may want Apple devices, so that's why I ran the
hardware comparison just now.

What is missing or incorrect about the hardware comparison given already?

[The Real Bev]

Is the 'stylus' special, or just the ordinary one with the rubber tip
that you can get in a variety of colors at the 99-Cents-Only store?
They work really nicely for clumsy people with fat fingers.

--
Cheers, Bev
It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in.

[nospam]

In article <p1orhu$1f2b$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

>
> >> Did I do a fair hardware comparison below of the two stocking stuffers?
> >
> > no, but you aren't interested in fair anything. you hate apple, so get
> > the android phone.
>
> As you know, I own and have bought plenty of Apple and Android devices.

except you don't know how to use any of them to their fullest potential
(ios *or* android), even going so far to intentionally disable basic
functionality.

> They each have their strengths and weaknesses.

if only you actually meant that.

you refuse to acknowledge any strength of apple or any weakness of
android, and whenever anything is pointed out, you go off on a lunatic
rant.

[rbowman]

On 12/24/2017 11:27 AM, harry newton wrote:
> I'm thinking of picking up a few more of these phablets, but some of the
> kids I'll be giving them to may want Apple devices, so that's why I ran the
> hardware comparison just now.

You have hit on it. Apple fans, including kids swayed by their peers or
Apple advertising, will accept nothing but Apple, regardless of the cost.

[nospam]

In article <faabg1...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman

<bow...@montana.com> wrote:

>
> You have hit on it. Apple fans, including kids swayed by their peers or
> Apple advertising, will accept nothing but Apple, regardless of the cost.

apple haters will continue hating, regardless of facts.

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:01:01 +0000 (UTC), harry

newton <ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

>I just picked up a couple of $130 Costco LG Stylo 3 Plus phones as
>last-minute stocking stuffers, where I ran the following hardware-only
>comparison below.
><http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/12/24/stylophones.jpg>
>
>I try to always only speak valid verifiable fact on Usenet.
>
>Did I do a fair hardware comparison below of the two stocking stuffers?
>If not, what hardware spec comparison did I miss?
>
>(NOTE: It's not fair to iOS to perform an app functionality comparison
>because there are scores of app functionalities on Android all by its itty
>bitty self not on iOS and none on iOS not already on Android - so this is
>only about the hardware comparison because all iOS devices lose in an
>app-functionality comparison to almost any Android phone).

The Stylo sure seems like a better buy for much less money.

>*HARDWARE COMPARISON OF STOCKING SUFFERS: iPhone 7 Plus vs Stylo 3 Plus:*
>Price: The Stylo was $130; while the iPhone is ~$670 (~five times more!)

Since this is the way most people express it, I would have let it go,
except you compound it below. It may well be easier to convince you of
the one below than this one, but here goes.

The iPhone is 5 times as much, but it is only 4 times more.

Or "it is more. 5 times as much."

The difference is 4x. If you subtract the lower from the higher to get
the difference, and then divide by the lower, the answer is rougly 4.

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:45:25 -0800, The Real Bev
<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Is the 'stylus' special,

When you said special, it prompted me to ask if the stylo was a special
sale, a loss leader, or anything like that, so that it overrepresented
the price advantage of LG over iphone.

I once bought a PCJr that was iirc, well I can't really, maybe 200
dollars if you came with 20 proofs of purchase from the makers of
Kleenex and other products. So I bought one, and they stopped selling
them a week later. So that was there closeout price.

(Still, I got my money's worth. Used it for 9 years until I got a used,
modified, and only partly restored to its original setup XT.I thought it
would work when I got it home but I had to learn a couple things, I'm
surprised I could find the things to learn.)

[Carlos E.R.]

I was surprised when I got my phone updated to Android 7 this week. When
I bought it, it came with version 5 and was updated to 6 soon. I was not
expecting another upgrade.

A Motorola X Play.

I have not looked to see whether that vulnerability is patched, I hope
it is. I don't know for sure how to verify it. :-)

On the other hand, external memory cards no longer work on it :-(

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[harry newton]

He who is trader_4 said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:52:30 -0800 (PST):

> I think the screens are capacitive responsive and the stylus is designed
> to work with it. You can buy them, I've heard of people making them, but AFAIK,
> in general you can't just use any stick, pointer, etc.

I have never bought a phablet before now, particularly one with a stylus,
so it's a good question of whether the stylus is a commodity or if it has
to be the one that is clipped into the phone.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+does+a+tablet+stylus+work>
<https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how-does-a-stylus-pen-work>

This says a capacitive stylus is easy to make at home:
<https://www.howtogeek.com/177376/not-all-tablet-styluses-are-equal-capacitive-wacom-and-bluetooth-explained/>
<http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-working-touchscreen-stylus-for-your-phone-o/>

Certainly there is a mechanical fit that has to fit the Stylus 3 Plus,
which, a quick google, shows the Stylo 3 Plus does NOT even fit a Stylo 3:
<https://www.amazon.com/Eaglestar-Replacement-Stylus-Touch-Stylo/dp/B077T4PJ1R>

But the cost is about 10 bucks for it so it might not matter all that much:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-LG-Stylo-3-Plus-LS777-Touch-Pen-Replacement-Stylus-S-Original-High-Quality/253252457463>

[harry newton]

He who is trader_4 said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:40:56 -0800 (PST):

> MAybe we have different definitions of stocking stuffer. To me that means
> some low cost or moderate cost items that anyone can use. A cell phone,
> especially for the younger folks, would seem to be a poor choice. First,
> they all have them already.

These are meant to be second phones for the kids, which is why the
price-to-performance is a factor - since I want to get the best bang for
the buck.

> Second, it's a status symbol kind of thing
> and they want what they want. If they want an iPhone, they probably aren't going
> to be happy with a $130 LG. You need to make sure that whatever carrier
> they have will accept that phone because people don't want to or can't
> switch.

I've had all three main US carriers (yes, I know there are 4) where I've
pretty much talked most of the Silicon Valley based extended family into
using T-Mobile - so for these phones - it's the T-Mobile carrier so the
phone is technically a LG-TP450 (which is the T-Mobile variant at Costco).
<http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/12/24/stylo3plus.jpg>

> Many, especially the majors, have a
> short list of what they will accept. Sprint for example was a bunch of
> iphones and a few motorolla G phones.

I can put the T-Mobile SIM card into almost any GSM phone and it just
works. In this hardware comparison, it seems that the GSM part of the
hardware specs is the same for both phablets being compared.

> If I was going to give a cell phone as a gift, I'd be sure to know exactly
> what the requirements are for the person receiving it.

I have plenty of iOS & Android devices, I've received plenty of both as
gifts, and I've given plenty as gifts. It's a thing with our family. Here,
for example, is a collection sitting in my office right now at this very
moment where you see iPads with iPhones with Android phablets.
<http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/12/24/devices.jpg>

Since I have both Android & iOS devices, but since I have never bought a
phablet before and since I may buy a few more today, I wanted to double
check with all of you for a fair hardware comparison between the iPhone 7
Plus & Stylo 3 Plus.

What did you think of the hardware comparison?
Did I get anything wrong or miss a key hardware-comparison factor?

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:48:06 -0500:

> you refuse to acknowledge any strength of apple or any weakness of
> android, and whenever anything is pointed out, you go off on a lunatic
> rant.

Please try to stay on topic.

[harry newton]

He who is rbowman said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 11:54:58 -0700:

>> I'm thinking of picking up a few more of these phablets, but some of the
>> kids I'll be giving them to may want Apple devices, so that's why I ran the
>> hardware comparison just now.
>
> You have hit on it. Apple fans, including kids swayed by their peers or
> Apple advertising, will accept nothing but Apple, regardless of the cost.

While I have never bought a phablet before, it does seem that these LG
Stylo 3 Plus phones I bought as last-minute stocking stuffers are one fifth
the price of the equivalent iPhone 7 Plus based on the hardware specs.

Since I had only expected an equivalent iPhone to cost about double the
price of an equivalent Android phone, I was amazed that these seemingly
comparable devices are so vastly different in price.

For the price of one iPhone 7 Plus, I can give five equivalent Android
phones, based on the hardware specs I listed in the OP.

Since that Android-to-iOS price-to-performance comparison seems too good to
be true, I wanted to ask if I somehow got the hardware specs wrong, or
maybe the price wrong on the iPhone (I already paid the $130 so I know that
the price on the Android phablet is accurate).

Did I get the 5X price comparison correct?
Is my hardware comparison correct?

If so, with respect only to hardware, would you consider the two phones to
be essentially equivalent?

[nospam]

In article <p1p0nh$1mh8$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

> Please try to stay on topic.

stop snipping to alter context and you'll see that i do.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:06:16 -0500:

> stop snipping to alter context and you'll see that i do.

Did I get the 5X price comparison correct?
Is my hardware comparison correct?

If so, with respect only to the hardware, would you consider the two phones
to be essentially equivalent?

Why or why not?

[harry newton]

He who is Bob said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:23:56 -0500:

> On 12/24/2017 1:01 PM, harry newton wrote:

>> I just picked up a couple of $130 Costco LG Stylo 3 Plus phones as
>> last-minute stocking stuffers, where I ran the following hardware-only
>> comparison below.
>
>

> When buying smartphones, make sure they have the WPA2 KRACK patch available.
>
> I got a couple 18-month-old Verizon branded HTC phones that the manufacturer no longer issues security patch updates so no more HTC phones for me.
>
> AFAIK, Apple has patched the WPA2 KRACK vulnerability in their phones.

Thanks for that advice to ensure that the KRACK attack is patched.
I do keep abreast of security vulnerabilities in both Android & in iOS.

In fact, I'm the guy that broke the news of that KRACK attack on both the
iOS and Android newsgroups - so I'm well aware of the vulnerability.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/pI1pmUNYGbM>

If it were an iOS phone, I'd have to ensure it doesn't have the secret
permanent and drastic CPU slowdown "feature" also - which is another
vulnerability I was the first to post on the iOS newsgroups.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/GdEtzzrc9F0>

So I'm up to speed on the software vulnerabilities - but the topic of this
thread is whether I got the hardware comparisons correct.

Is my hardware comparison correct?

If so, with respect only to hardware, would you consider the two phones to

[nospam]

In article <p1p217$1oga$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

> Is my hardware comparison correct?

no.

> If so, with respect only to the hardware, would you consider the two phones
> to be essentially equivalent?

not even remotely close to equivalent.

any idiot can see a $130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device.

you're also ignoring that iphones start at $350, not $600.

[harry newton]

He who is trader_4 said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:30:24 -0800 (PST):

>> These are meant to be second phones for the kids, which is why the
>> price-to-performance is a factor - since I want to get the best bang for
>> the buck.
>

> That concept does not compute, at least for me.

Just like with buying tools, you want to make sure that they pay for
themselves over time, or that you get the best tool for the best price.

You can get the best tool at the worst price and you can get a bad tool at
an even worse price - but the concept of getting the best bang for the buck
should be familiar to you.

Is it not?

> I just switched to t-mobile myself. Way better than sprint here in my area
> of NJ. Actually I'm with Mint Sim, which is the sub whore of a whore.

I know people in NJ who are in love with Verizon signal.
They can't stand Verizon prices - but the signal strength is their gig.
So I have to get them Verizon phones.
But these phones are for local kids - where T-Mobile is just fine.

>> I can put the T-Mobile SIM card into almost any GSM phone and it just
>> works.
>

> It won't work in a locked phone from another carrier.

I haven't had Verizon since they started unlocking phones, but AT&T
unlocked every phone I asked them to unlock, as did T-Mobile.

The paperwork from Costco clearly says T-mobile will unlock these phablets
after two billing cycles - so I will help the parents of these kids to get
them unlocked ASAP (because the FCC rules on unlocking, actually Library of
Congress regulations, change over time).

> I was looking at the stylo before I decided on the ZTE.
> This has a 6" screen, 4000mah battery and I love it.

That's a bit bigger in both screen size and battery size.
Is the battery removable?

To me, the battery being removable is one of the most precious hardware
features of many Android phones. For example, I bought my Samsung Galaxy
SIII when it was new, and now I change batteries any time I want. I have a
7,000mAH battery for example, which works beautifully.

You can see the external battery charger I use in this picture - where I
typically charge four new batteries at a time so that I can run 24/7 as
long as the electricity holds out.
<http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/12/24/stylo3plus_phones.jpg>

My model for myself is the same that most of us use for my shop tools.
I buy the best phone that exists for whatever price it costs, and then I
use it forever or until it's no longer feasible.

At about 5 years for my Samsung Galaxy SIII, it still is going strong
(since I replace batteries any time I want) but the USB port has been worn
out so I do all my transferring of data over the air to a networked drive
on my local home network.

How to mount the entire mobile device file system on Windows
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/j2nTvKDVF2Y/W4CvRyK1AAAJ>

>> What did you think of the hardware comparison?
>> Did I get anything wrong or miss a key hardware-comparison factor?
>

> Fast charging on the Lg?

Thanks for that addition. Fast charging is a good point.

The LG claims to have "fast charging" and the charger that came with it
explicitly says that on the side.

You can see the LG "fast" charger in this pic:
<http://wetakepic.com/images/2017/12/24/devices.jpg>

I'm not sure though, "what" fast charging really means because I generally
use 2.4Amp 5VDC five port wall worts - so what would this "fast charger"
that came with the phone do that the wall wort doesn't already do?

> Charging time?

Somewhere in the literature I saw "2 hours" charge time from dead to full.
Does that sound reasonable for a phablet?

> And to really compare the cpu performance you need benchmarks.

I agree. Surprisingly I didn't find any benchmarks for the LG Stylo 3 Plus
that I could compare to the iPhone 7 Plus.

These benchmarks would be interesting because while the iPhone 7 Plus has
half as many CPU cores as does the Stylo 3 Plus, the speed of the 2 cores
that the iPhone has is a bit faster and there is more RAM in the iPhone.

So it would be interesting to see how the doubling of CPUs benchmarks
against that hardware feature.

If anyone has comparison benchmark numbers, that would be fantastic!

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:59:34 -0500:

> apple haters will continue hating, regardless of facts.

This is off topic.

We all know that the world loves Apple products.

In fact, I authored a thread in which you responded specifically outlining
all the reasons we all love Apple products in different ways.

Why is the iPhone/iPad one of the most successful mobile device platforms
in the market?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/x8QlA5W81Yw>

Here is the opening post I made to that thread...
"What are the main reasons millions of people, including some
of my own relatives, *love* the Apple iOS platform?"

So it's off topic for you to harp on your "apple haters" tirade.

All we want to know here is whether the cold hard facts are correct, and if
they're not, what are the cold hard facts about the hardware comparison
between the $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus and the equivalent $670 iPhone 7 Plus.

[harry newton]

He who is micky said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 14:03:03 -0500:

> The Stylo sure seems like a better buy for much less money.

Thanks for being the first person to hazard a guess, as I know it's risky
to state an opinion based on facts on the Usenet.

The main question is which is a better phone - from the hardware standpoint
only.

That's really the question - where the advantage of the iOS device is in a
faster CPU speed for half the cores (the same CPU speed for the other half
of it's cores) and the iPhone 7 has an extra GB of RAM.

Both of those are nice.

But on many other hardware factors (e.g., the Stylo 3 Plus has twice as
many CPU cores and expansion memory of up to 2 Terabytes) the Stylo 3 Plus
is clearly better than the iPhone 7 Plus.

It's the end analysis which I ask you about since each one of us weighs the
varying factors differently (e.g., I don't care about a camera but a kid
might care a lot - and where these two cameras seem 'about the same' but
they're not exactly the same).

> The iPhone is 5 times as much, but it is only 4 times more.
> Or "it is more. 5 times as much."

I ended up asking my wife to buy a couple more of the phablets today.

I'm ok with the equivalent iPhone being only 4 times as expensive as the
equivalent Android phone. The main calculation is that, for the same amount
of money, I can get 5 Android phones for the price of one equivalent iOS
phone.

That's what matters since these are gifts so I have to stuff more than one
stocking (one set of the recipients for example, are twins).

> The difference is 4x. If you subtract the lower from the higher to get
> the difference, and then divide by the lower, the answer is rougly 4.

That's fine. I understand.

The way I think about the math is that I can buy 5 Android phones for the
price of an essentially equivalent iOS phone.

In this case, I bought 4, so I had money to spare for something else (like
2 terabyte sd cards for each of the four phones!).

The important technical aspect of this question though isn't the price.

The question here is only of fact and how you interpret the hardware
comparison in the original post since we all weight the factors differently
and you never have to exactly equivalent android/ios phones in all hardware
respects.

[JF Mezei]

On 2017-12-24 15:33, nospam wrote:

> any idiot can see a $130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device.

I disagree. I have a friend who bought an Asus Zen phone. On paper, it
had all the "superior" specs.

But it trurns out the camera, in real life, takes lousy shots, not good
in dark etc. The 5000mAh battery is great but doesn't give 2.8 times
the autonomy you'd get on an iPhone with 1800mAh.

A lot of playesr in the phone market play the specs game. Apple's specs
are traditionally unimpressive, but in real live, yields better quality
photos, more battery autonomy, faster CPU etc.

So just looking at the specs isn't enough, and a lot of the real life
measurements are not scientific, they are subjective (such as image
quality for photos taken).

[anonymous]

On 12/24/2017 3:57 PM, harry newton wrote:
> All we want to know here is whether the cold hard facts are correct, and if
> they're not, what are the cold hard facts about the hardware comparison
> between the $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus and the equivalent $670 iPhone 7 Plus.

My wife would choose the phone that best matches her handbag and shoes.

As for me, knowing whatever phone I buy will be obsolete next week, I'd buy the $130 one.

[harry newton]

He who is JF Mezei said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 16:52:37 -0500:

>> any idiot can see a $130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device.
>
> I disagree.

Price is not an indication of quality. Price is an indication of demand.
Nothing else.

If you have a hurricane, the price for a piece of lumber can triple.
The quality didn't triple - only the demand did.

You can have a pharmaceutical company make Viagra for $100 a pill and then
when the patent turns off, the same guy can sell the blue pill for $100 and
the white pill for $50 where the only difference is demand.

You can buy car parts on your own or you can let the body shop buy them for
you and the price will be ten times for the same part when the body shop
buys it.

Price is never an indication of quality.
Price is only an indication of demand - which is highly influenced by ...
guess what ... c'mon ... guess.....

MARKETING.

> I have a friend who bought an Asus Zen phone. On paper, it
> had all the "superior" specs.

Hardware specs aren't everything I agree.
What matters is price to performance.

I would expect and hope that the iPhone 7 Plus is at least five times
faster in all meaningful benchmarks than the LG Stylo 3 Plus is, as the
Stylo has a *lot* of nice things that the iPhone will never have (e.g.,
removable battery, 2TB storage,

> But it trurns out the camera, in real life, takes lousy shots, not good
> in dark etc. The 5000mAh battery is great but doesn't give 2.8 times
> the autonomy you'd get on an iPhone with 1800mAh.

I'll look on DXoMark for the camera comparison because they seem "similar"
but not the same.

For example, I think the f stop rating for the iPhone 7 Plus is better than
the f stop rating for the LG Stylo 3 Plus - which would make the cameras
perform differently when in low-light conditions.

I will defer to the camera tests to see which has the better camera where I
would hope that the iPhone has a far better camera because we all know
(from extensive DxoMark tests over time) that the iPhone cameras generally
are in the bottom of the top ten of the best Android cameras.
<https://www.dxomark.com/introducing-the-new-dxomark-mobile-test-protocol/>

> A lot of playesr in the phone market play the specs game. Apple's specs

> are traditionally unimpressive, but in real life, yields better quality

> photos, more battery autonomy, faster CPU etc.

That's just dead wrong on the camera. You're too influenced by MARKETING.
Apple camera results are fine - but they're historically in the bottom of
the top ten or dozen of the best Android cameras at the same time.

We have many threads on this topic ... here's just one:
Finally, Apple makes a smartphone camera that isn't the worst
of the top ten best!
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/s-_cGzvapwY/58sodzJ8BQAJ>

> So just looking at the specs isn't enough, and a lot of the real life
> measurements are not scientific, they are subjective (such as image
> quality for photos taken).

I think that anyone who thinks iPhone cameras are the best is unduly
influenced by MARKETING where the specs aren't the problem. They are just
wrong (since the people who test camera output know how to test them).

Apple camera output is good - and it's in the top ten - but almost always
over time - it's been in the BOTTOM of the top ten at any given moment -
although for a moment or two - they were the number one camera - and then
slipped back - only weeks later to fourth or fifth place before dropping
back to where they typically are, in tenth place.

Still - the cameras are good - they're just not the best and never were.

But I do agree with you that the specifications don't tell everything but
that camera ranking is based on output - not on specs.

Back to the comparison of the $130 LG Stylo 3 Plus to the iPhone 7 Plus, I
would HOPE to dear God that the iPhone (at its price) has (far) better
meaningful benchmark numbers. It must - but I haven't found the direct
1-to-1 comparison benchmarks yet.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 12/24/2017 2:53 PM, harry newton wrote:
> He who is trader_4 said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:40:56 -0800 (PST):
>
>> MAybe we have different definitions of stocking stuffer.  To me that
>> means
>> some low cost or moderate cost items that anyone can use.  A cell phone,
>> especially for the younger folks, would seem to be a poor choice.  First,
>> they all have them already.
>
> These are meant to be second phones for the kids, which is why the
> price-to-performance is a factor - since I want to get the best bang for
> the buck.
>

Second phone? I'd not give my kids a first phone let alone a second. I
did not buy them cars either. They appreciate what they worked to get.

[rbowman]

Certainly. That is a corollary of the first statement. I neither hate or
love Apple. However up to this point nobody has offered my money to
create software for an Apple product so I have little interest in them.

My only brush with one was after I was gifted with a iPod Shuffle. I
will say iTunes was one of the least usable interfaces I've ever used.

[harry newton]

He who is rbowman said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 19:18:43 -0700:

> Certainly. That is a corollary of the first statement. I neither hate or
> love Apple. However up to this point nobody has offered my money to
> create software for an Apple product so I have little interest in them.
>
> My only brush with one was after I was gifted with a iPod Shuffle. I
> will say iTunes was one of the least usable interfaces I've ever used.

It's well known that iTunes is an abomination (just google iTunes and
bloatware to find that they're associated intimately).

Luckily, you can use an older version of Sharepod, which I use all the
time, which allows you to transfer any data to and from any iPod to and
from any Windows desktop computer without risk of blowing away any of your
songs like iTunes has a tendency to do because of its idiotic restrictive
"library" concept.

Luckily for me, I have older versions of Sharepod lying around and sitting
on all my iPods - so if you can find an older version - you're good as gold
because there are ZERO restrictions.

With SHarepod freeware, you can copy anything from any iPod to any Windows
machine without ever needing a login or password or even storing a single
bit of the executable on Windows (it runs off the iPod as a Windows
executable stored on the iPod).

Basically, you get an Excel-like spreadsheet with the older versions of
Sharepod where you just click to transfer anything to anything - where I've
very often transferred songs from one iPod to another or to DVD or from DVD
or to disk or from disk or whatever.

[harry newton]

He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:29:33 -0500:

>> These are meant to be second phones for the kids, which is why the
>> price-to-performance is a factor - since I want to get the best bang for
>> the buck.
>>
>
> Second phone? I'd not give my kids a first phone let alone a second. I
> did not buy them cars either. They appreciate what they worked to get.

Kids learn a lot from their electronics though.

[harry newton]

He who is trader_4 said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:20:37 -0800 (PST):

>> Is it not?
>
> I was referring to the concept of a kid needing out wanting a
> second cell phone. Unless they're a terrorist or drug dealer
> and need a burner phone.

Oh. Thanks for explaining. Yes. That's an apropos observation.

I ended up purchasing four of the Android phablets, where for the money
saved on not buying the fifth, I'll get the kids each a decently sized sd
card.

It's quite nice that the Android tablet can handle up to 2 terabytes of the
sd card storage - although I've never bought a card anywhere near that
large.

>> I know people in NJ who are in love with Verizon signal.
>

> Verizon probably had the best coverage and the cost to go with it.

Yes. That seems to be the case. Maybe because AT&T started in NJ and
Verizon picked up from them at some point some of their infrastructure?

Out here, Verizon signal is ok. So is AT&T. SO it T-Mobile.
Depends on which mountain your house sits on top of. :)

> So, it's not unlocked, it's a t-mobile phone.
> Then my previous comments still apply. It can probably go to
> another company that uses the t-mobile network, but I wouldn't
> count on it going to a CDMA carrier, even if they unlock it.

I've had so many cellphones that I can't count them, but never had I had a
trouble with unlocking them. It's been easier in the past few years that it
was in the beginning where I had to jailbreak just to switch an iOS phone
from AT&T to T-Mobile.

Costco gave me paperwork that explicityly says T-mobile will unlock the
phones after two billing cycles - so - given that Costco gives 90 day
no-questions-asked returns, I can unlock the phone and return it a month
later - not that I'd do that - but the point is that unlocking is so easy
that it's not an issue in the least.

> And even if it's not firmware crippled, nothing says another
> carrier has to accept it. Sprint for example has a short list
> of phones that they will accept.

Here, in California, I've never had a problem unlocking any AT&T or
T-Mobile phone in the past few years. So it's a non issue. Like the color
of the phone. It's meaningless in the scheme of things.

>> That's a bit bigger in both screen size and battery size.
>> Is the battery removable?
>

> No.

Bummer. The one thing that keeps my Samsung Galaxy SIII alive is the fact
that I can pop in any battery I want at any time I want. It's one of the
most important features of a modern smart phone to have the user
replaceable battery, IMHO.

> I agree, that's a very good feature that I would prefer.
> But when you get a big phone, high resolution screen, for $100,
> some compromise is acceptable. And as phones get bigger and
> thinner you'll see more non removable.

I agree that it's better for the manufacturer, in very many ways, to make
the phone non removable - but maybe not so much a benefit to the user
except perhaps in momentary water proofness in longer immersions.

In short accidental immersions, there may be a huge benefit to popping the
battery out quickly - as I've done many times on my S3 over the years
(given I hike in all weather with that phone).

> They boost voltage to at least 9v. The most widely used spec is
> Qualcomm quickcharge 3.0. That actually supports up to 21v, but
> I don't think anyone uses 21 for a phone, probably for tablets
> and such. But some manufactures have their own methods, eg Samsung.

Interesting. The current is all that matters, in the end, but the way to
get current is with pressure, and that's what the voltage is all about.

> I don't think LG stylo has quick charging. ]

It says it does and it says so on the battery charger that came with the
phone.

> This 4000mah battery charges in just over an hour.

Thanks. Now I have an idea of the charging time expected for a "quick
charger". Much appreciated.

It's so nice to deal with the non-iOS-group people who are actually helpful
and not so scornful as nospam and some of the others habitually are. Thanks
for being a good helpful person.

> Idk, sounds too fast for a regular charger, slow for a fast charger.

Interesting. I need to dig more into this "fast charging" stuff as it's new
to me, although the electronics is old school stuff of course.

> Another thing to compare is the USB port. New Androids are going to usb-c,
> which is what I have. Apple of course has their own proprietary bs.

Looking at the specs, I noticed both are essentially USB 2.0, although
Apple is, of course, proprietary.

The one good thing that came out of the Apple-proprietary port was it may
have spurred the micro-usb people to build a port spec that goes both ways,
which is a nice thing Apple did (accidentally) for the industry.

Back to the topic, I assume the benchmark speeds on the LG Stylo 3 Plus
will be dismal compared to the iPhone 7 Plus - but I'm awaiting finding
them to be sure.

[harry newton]

He who is harry newton said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:01:01 +0000 (UTC):

> Q: Which do you think, based on hardware, has better price:performance?

What's interesting is this :singshot Extreme" benchmark I just found, which
validates what I thought would happen, which is that the iPhone 7 Plus is
faster than the LG Stylo 3 Plus.

iPhone 7 Plus:
https://www.futuremark.com/hardware/mobile/Apple+iPhone+7+Plus/review

LG Stylo 3 Plus:
https://www.futuremark.com/hardware/mobile/LG+Stylo+3+Plus/review

If someone has more insight into the relevance of this "Sling Shot Extreme"
benchmark, that would be helpful.

Here are the raw numbers.

Physics test part 1 LG=22 FPS iPhone=26 FPS
Physics test part 2 LG=13 FPS iPhone=10 FPS
Physics test part 3 LG=7 FPS iPhone=6 FPS
Physics score LG=1279 iPhone=1145
-
Graphics test 1 LG=2 FPS iPhone=24 FPS
Graphics test 2 LG=1 FPS iPhone=11 FPS
Graphics score LG=244 iPhone=3342
-
Average score = LG=297 iPhone=2307

[The Real Bev]

I think they learn more from working.

--
Cheers, Bev
'Politics' comes from an ancient Greek word meaning
'many blood-sucking leeches.' -- Mark Russell

[harry newton]

He who is The Real Bev said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 21:20:29 -0800:

>> Kids learn a lot from their electronics though.
>
> I think they learn more from working.

Well, I have four of these phablets in four different stockings.
They'll open them tomorrow morning.
I hope they like 'em.

Merry Christmas!

[The Real Bev]

You should have put a lump of coal in the bottom of each one just in
case! Merry Christmas!

--
Cheers, Bev
Nothing is so stupid that you can't find somebody who
did it at least once if you look hard enough.

[rbowman]

On 12/24/2017 09:08 PM, harry newton wrote:
> With SHarepod freeware, you can copy anything from any iPod to any Windows
> machine without ever needing a login or password or even storing a single
> bit of the executable on Windows (it runs off the iPod as a Windows
> executable stored on the iPod).

My main machine is Linux and my non-Apple MP3 players show up as mass
storage devices that I can copy files to. I got the Shuffle loaded and
that was that. I have no intention of ever trying to reload it.

[nospam]

In article <GkV%B.13067$247....@fx40.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> > any idiot can see a $130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device.
>
> I disagree.

actually, it looks like you agree.

> I have a friend who bought an Asus Zen phone. On paper, it
> had all the "superior" specs.

and cost less...

> But it trurns out the camera, in real life, takes lousy shots, not good
> in dark etc. The 5000mAh battery is great but doesn't give 2.8 times
> the autonomy you'd get on an iPhone with 1800mAh.

exactly the point.

that was a cheap phone which didn't work all that well. the display was
probably worse.

as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

[nospam]

In article <p1pct3$81a$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

>
> >> any idiot can see a $130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device.
> >
> > I disagree.
>
> Price is not an indication of quality. Price is an indication of demand.

i didn't say quality. as usual, you are also moving the goalposts and
wrong.

> For example, I think the f stop rating for the iPhone 7 Plus is better than
> the f stop rating for the LG Stylo 3 Plus - which would make the cameras
> perform differently when in low-light conditions.

not necessarily.

this is one reason why your misguided comparison is completely bogus.
you don't understand what it is you're comparing.

[nospam]

In article <fab5g4...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman

<bow...@montana.com> wrote:

> >> You have hit on it. Apple fans, including kids swayed by their peers or
> >> Apple advertising, will accept nothing but Apple, regardless of the cost.
> >
> > apple haters will continue hating, regardless of facts.
>
> Certainly. That is a corollary of the first statement. I neither hate or
> love Apple. However up to this point nobody has offered my money to
> create software for an Apple product so I have little interest in them.

your statement is false on its face, which puts you in the hater
category.

people buy apple products because they best fits their needs, just like
anything else, and if their needs change, they will probably buy
something else. the price is competitive with similar products and more
than half of iphone owners are windows users.

[Jolly Roger]

So the Linux user "just gave up"...color me shocked!

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Ed Pawlowski]

True, they learn who is boinking who through Facebook.

[rbowman]

Okay, I'm a hater starting with you. May the horse you rode in on step
on your new iPhone X.

[rbowman]

On 12/25/2017 09:49 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
> rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>> On 12/24/2017 09:08 PM, harry newton wrote:
>>> With SHarepod freeware, you can copy anything from any iPod to any Windows
>>> machine without ever needing a login or password or even storing a single
>>> bit of the executable on Windows (it runs off the iPod as a Windows
>>> executable stored on the iPod).
>>
>> My main machine is Linux and my non-Apple MP3 players show up as mass
>> storage devices that I can copy files to. I got the Shuffle loaded and
>> that was that. I have no intention of ever trying to reload it.
>
> So the Linux user "just gave up"...color me shocked!
>

I managed to fill the iShuffle's 2GB with acceptable music. Why would I
ever revisit it rather than use one of my other MP3 players that have
much higher capacities? Anyway if I did, there are several applications:

https://www.wikihow.com/Manage-an-iPod-in-Linux

[The Real Bev]

That's "boinking WHOM", you ignorant cretin!

--
Cheers, Bev
"Calling someone an asshole for being rude to a telemarketer
is like accusing someone who's shot a burglar in his home
of being a poor host." -- W.S.Rowell

[nospam]

In article <facpn9...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman

<bow...@montana.com> wrote:

> >>> With SHarepod freeware, you can copy anything from any iPod to any Windows
> >>> machine without ever needing a login or password or even storing a single
> >>> bit of the executable on Windows (it runs off the iPod as a Windows
> >>> executable stored on the iPod).
> >>
> >> My main machine is Linux and my non-Apple MP3 players show up as mass
> >> storage devices that I can copy files to. I got the Shuffle loaded and
> >> that was that. I have no intention of ever trying to reload it.
> >
> > So the Linux user "just gave up"...color me shocked!
>
> I managed to fill the iShuffle's 2GB with acceptable music. Why would I
> ever revisit it rather than use one of my other MP3 players that have
> much higher capacities?

many reasons, including smart playlists, regular playlists, arbitrary
groupings, automatic syncing so you don't need to manage everything
yourself as well as many other things.

itunes is one of the most popular apps on *windows* because of all of
the functionality it offers, and unlike a mac, it's *not* bundled, so
windows users have to actually go download and install it themselves.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 12/25/2017 12:42 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 12/25/2017 08:57 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 12/24/2017 11:08 PM, harry newton wrote:
>>> He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:29:33 -0500:
>>>
>>>>> These are meant to be second phones for the kids, which is why the
>>>>> price-to-performance is a factor - since I want to get the best
>>>>> bang for
>>>>> the buck.
>>>>
>>>> Second phone?  I'd not give my kids a first phone let alone a second.
>>>> I did not buy them cars either.  They appreciate what they worked to
>>>> get.
>>>
>>> Kids learn a lot from their electronics though.
>>
>> True, they learn who is boinking who through Facebook.
>
> That's "boinking WHOM", you ignorant cretin!
>

Inglish makes my brane hert.

[rbowman]

On 12/25/2017 11:02 AM, nospam wrote:
> many reasons, including smart playlists, regular playlists, arbitrary
> groupings, automatic syncing so you don't need to manage everything
> yourself as well as many other things.

I do fine with random play, thank you. I don't need the 'walking the
dog' or 'taking out the garbage' play list. If someone like the iTunes
interface, more power to them. I found it clumsy and since I don't
purchase music through iTunes that isn't a factor. Syncing a Shuffle is
of little use since the thing if completely full with its limited
storage. It is handy in the gym where I can clip it on my t-shirt and
that's it's sole function in my life.

Other than straight MP3 players I use the Kindle Fire. Between the Prime
selections and the music I buy through Amazon it provides all of the above.

[JF Mezei]

On 2017-12-25 11:27, nospam wrote:

> that was a cheap phone which didn't work all that well. the display was
> probably worse.
>
> as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

But on paper, that phone had better specs than any iPhone. (for
instance, 13MP camera instead of 12).


So manufacturers now compete by producing low quality phone with good
specs on paper. And this is why it becomes very hard to compare phones,
and why the iPhone may look uncompetitive in the specs, but in real
life, its 12MP camera is infinitely better than some other guy's low
cost 13MP camera.

But when comparing phones, it is really hard to do an objective "by the
numbers" comparisons because specs don't mean quality anymore.

[nospam]

In article <fad22l...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman

<bow...@montana.com> wrote:

> > many reasons, including smart playlists, regular playlists, arbitrary
> > groupings, automatic syncing so you don't need to manage everything
> > yourself as well as many other things.
>
> I do fine with random play, thank you.

it does that too.

> I don't need the 'walking the
> dog' or 'taking out the garbage' play list. If someone like the iTunes
> interface, more power to them. I found it clumsy and since I don't
> purchase music through iTunes that isn't a factor.

there is no requirement to purchase music with itunes. you can use your
own music, from whatever source, even pirated music.

in fact, you can gain amnesty for pirated music using itunes match,
where it will give you legal non-drm 256kbit versions for whatever you
already have, regardless of its source or quality (although if it's
*really* shitty quality, the matching won't work).

> Syncing a Shuffle is
> of little use since the thing if completely full with its limited
> storage.

actually syncing a shuffle is very useful *because* it's limited.
otherwise, you could put everything on it.

sync whatever you want to hear, which can even be automated simply by
plugging the shuffle into the computer.

> It is handy in the gym where I can clip it on my t-shirt and
> that's it's sole function in my life.

exercising is one of the main use cases for a shuffle, where people
won't want to (or can't) fuss with choosing music on a display. it's
also small and won't get in the way.

different tools for different jobs.

> Other than straight MP3 players I use the Kindle Fire. Between the Prime
> selections and the music I buy through Amazon it provides all of the above.

ok.

[nospam]

In article <Usc0C.51047$qe.4...@fx18.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> > that was a cheap phone which didn't work all that well. the display was
> > probably worse.
> >
> > as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.
>
> But on paper, that phone had better specs than any iPhone.

actually, it didn't.

> (for
> instance, 13MP camera instead of 12).

bigger numbers are *not* always better.

for example, a 12 megapixel cellphone camera is *worse* than a 6
megapixel slr, with the exception of the ability to fit in a pocket.

a cellphone sensor has tiny pixels with a *lot* more noise and the lens
is nowhere near as good as the many lenses available on an slr, such as
ultra-wides and super-telephotos.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 11:27:45 -0500:

> as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

Anyone who says "you get what you pay for" has *never* taken basic
Economics (macro or micro) since you don't ever get what you pay for.

You pay what others pay for whatever it is that you get.

The job of a business is to extract as much as they can out of the
consumer, no matter what their product is.

So you can buy a can of coca cola on the beach for $5.00 or you can buy
that same can of soda at the local supermarket for $0.50 and it's the
*same* can of soda.

Only someone unschooled in MARKETING & BUSINESS would ever assert that "you

get what you pay for".

You pay what others are willing to pay, since no individual gets to set the
price point in any mass consumer product. It's Apple MARKETING's job to
increase demand for their product - which they are the best at on the
planet.

For example, Apple MARKETING knows that its customers will pay more just
for the *feeling* of safety, as just one example, so Apple spends millions
convincing clueless idiots that the encryption Maginot Line is the way to
feel safe.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 11:27:45 -0500:

>>>> any idiot can see a $130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device.
>>>
>>> I disagree.
>>
>> Price is not an indication of quality. Price is an indication of demand.
>
> i didn't say quality. as usual, you are also moving the goalposts and
> wrong.

You said a "$130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device", which is dead
wrong in that the device can be equivalent since price and equivalency are
not directly related.

For example, the news stated that the company that makes Viagra is selling
the generic pill for something like half the branded pill.

Exact same pill (save for the color) - but two different prices.

Very often stores sell a store-branded drug that is the exact same as the
branded drug (made by the same company often) and yet, the price can be
twice for the branded item and half that for the non-branded exact same
item.

You can put a Gucci stamp on a plastic handbag and you can sell it at twice
the price of a better made handbag sometimes - becuase price is based on
demand.

Apple MARKETING, one of the best in the world, spends *ALL* its time on
increasing demand for their products. They don't spend their time making a
better product (that's not their job anyway) - they spend all their time on
increasing demand.

>> For example, I think the f stop rating for the iPhone 7 Plus is better than
>> the f stop rating for the LG Stylo 3 Plus - which would make the cameras
>> perform differently when in low-light conditions.
>
> not necessarily.
>
> this is one reason why your misguided comparison is completely bogus.
> you don't understand what it is you're comparing.

What matters, and you know I've said this many times, is how the camera
performs in a host of tests that matter - where I will defer to the DXoMark
test results, where Apple phones generally perform well - and usually in
the bottom of the top ten of all Android phones.

I will defer to the DXoMark results for a comparison of the camera output
of these two phones, but I would hope, at a 5X cost, that the Apple device
camera performs better, even when it has fewer rear-facing pixels - due to,
let's hope, a better lens or other hardware reasons.

[harry newton]

He who is The Real Bev said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 22:17:44 -0800:

> You should have put a lump of coal in the bottom of each one just in
> case! Merry Christmas!

I don't think I've seen a lump of coal in decades!
Merry Christmas!

[harry newton]

He who is rbowman said on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 23:46:47 -0700:

I also have Ubuntu 16.04, where, thankfully, the iTunes abomination won't
run natively.

The problem I have with Linux is that Apple never tests their software in
the real world, saying that it's "not supported", so they break
connectivity for millions of users even when going from something as minor
as iOS version 7.0.0 to iOS 7.0.1.

Apple doesn't care about the real world.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 13:02:12 -0500:

> itunes is one of the most popular apps on *windows* because of all of
> the functionality it offers, and unlike a mac, it's *not* bundled, so
> windows users have to actually go download and install it themselves.

The main problem with iTunes bloatware is that it's *restrictive*.
It won't let you copy any mP3 song from any iPod to anywhere else.

Luckily a 100KByte older SharePod executable on the iPod solves that.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 14:56:29 -0500:

>> But on paper, that phone had better specs than any iPhone.
>
> actually, it didn't.
>
>> (for
>> instance, 13MP camera instead of 12).
>
> bigger numbers are *not* always better.
>
> for example, a 12 megapixel cellphone camera is *worse* than a 6
> megapixel slr, with the exception of the ability to fit in a pocket.
>
> a cellphone sensor has tiny pixels with a *lot* more noise and the lens
> is nowhere near as good as the many lenses available on an slr, such as
> ultra-wides and super-telephotos.

Here are the current DXoMark test results for the top ten (actually 15
because of ties) mobile phone cameras.
<https://www.dxomark.com/category/mobile-reviews/>

1=98 Google Pixel 2
2=97 Apple iPhone X & Huawei Mate 10 Pro
3=94 Apple iPhone 8 Plus & Samsung Galaxy Note 8
4=92 Apple iPhone 8
5=90 Google Pixel & HTC U11 & Xiaomi Mi Note 3
6=88 Apple iPhone 7 Plus
7=85 Apple iPhone 7
8=83 Sony Xperia XZ Premium
9=82 Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge
10=73 Apple iPhone 6

[harry newton]

He who is rbowman said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 12:32:37 -0700:

> I don't need the 'walking the
> dog' or 'taking out the garbage' play list.

A play list is just a text file.
The free SharePod does playlists just fine.

In fact, every music management program I've ever used has play lists.
There's nothing special for play lists in iTunes bloatware.

[harry newton]

He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 13:47:57 -0500:

>> That's "boinking WHOM", you ignorant cretin!
>>
>
> Inglish makes my brane hert.

Whenever I see someone type "who" for "whom", it hurts my eyes.

The funny thing is that everyone already knows how to use who and whom
correctly since it follows the same rules as does he and him, she and her,
they and them, etc.

All personal pronouns follow the same rules.

So all you have to do is remember "him goes with whom" (and that "he goes
with him").

Pop Quiz!
Which sentence is correct?
a. True, they learn he is boinking he through Facebook.
b. True, they learn him is boinking he through Facebook.
c. True, they learn he is boinking him through Facebook.

[The Real Bev]

BUT people who grew up in certain areas, or whose parents did, will in
certain circumstances use constructions like "Him and John went to the
movies" even though they are college-educated and NOT stupid; they just
can't break the habit even though they KNOW better.

Our friend, whose parents were from OK, asked us to tell him whenever he
did it. We finally gave up. 65-year habits are hard to break without a
more compelling reason than the vague desire to be more grammatical.

--
Cheers, Bev
It's 95% of the lawyers making the other 5% look bad.

[nospam]

In article <p1rrk0$1ple$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

>
> >>>> any idiot can see a $130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device.
> >>>
> >>> I disagree.
> >>
> >> Price is not an indication of quality. Price is an indication of demand.
> >
> > i didn't say quality. as usual, you are also moving the goalposts and
> > wrong.
>
> You said a "$130 device is not equivalent to a $600 device", which is dead
> wrong in that the device can be equivalent since price and equivalency are
> not directly related.

nonsense.

> For example, the news stated that the company that makes Viagra is selling
> the generic pill for something like half the branded pill.

irrelevant.

your $130 phone is not a 'generic iphone' without apple branding.

you truly are an idiot.

> >> For example, I think the f stop rating for the iPhone 7 Plus is better than
> >> the f stop rating for the LG Stylo 3 Plus - which would make the cameras
> >> perform differently when in low-light conditions.
> >
> > not necessarily.
> >
> > this is one reason why your misguided comparison is completely bogus.
> > you don't understand what it is you're comparing.
>
> What matters, and you know I've said this many times, is how the camera
> performs in a host of tests that matter - where I will defer to the DXoMark
> test results, where Apple phones generally perform well - and usually in
> the bottom of the top ten of all Android phones.

and i've said many times, dxo reviews can be bought and their scores
are considered to be meaningless by many people (check dpreview for
specifics).

a bigger problem is that they claim things that are physically and
mathematically impossible with the underlying hardware, such as a
higher dynamic range than the sensor and a/d can actually do (several
nikon slrs).

those who understand the technology and use various cameras (not just
cellphone cameras) can see just what a joke dxo actually is.

the fact you cling to it shows just how ignorant you are.

[nospam]

In article <p1rsk1$1r4v$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

> A play list is just a text file.

no it isn't

[nospam]

In article <p1rroe$1pr0$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

>
> > itunes is one of the most popular apps on *windows* because of all of
> > the functionality it offers, and unlike a mac, it's *not* bundled, so
> > windows users have to actually go download and install it themselves.
>
> The main problem with iTunes bloatware is that it's *restrictive*.
> It won't let you copy any mP3 song from any iPod to anywhere else.

no, that's not the main problem. in fact, that isn't even a problem at
all.

you need to stop talking about things you don't understand.

[JF Mezei]

On 2017-12-25 16:46, harry newton wrote:

> So you can buy a can of coca cola on the beach for $5.00 or you can buy
> that same can of soda at the local supermarket for $0.50 and it's the
> *same* can of soda.

The only way for this to happen is for you to have visited the
supermarket and saw that can before the beach vendor visited same
supermaret to buy that can at $0.50 and then bring it to the beach and
try to sell it to you for $5.00

Otherwise it can't be the same can :-) :-) :-)

> You pay what others are willing to pay, since no individual gets to set the
> price point in any mass consumer product. It's Apple MARKETING's job to
> increase demand for their product

This is where you make a mistake. Yes, Apple has very strong Marketing.
But Apple is not just marketing. It also has very solid hardsware and
software engineering.

And while Jony Ive may have ruined the "icing on cake" with his UI
style, the fact remains that there is solid engineering under the hood
and lots of innovation.

"iPhone is secure" isn't vapourware invented by Apple Marketing. There
is real security engineering under the hood. Yes, Marleting takes
advantage of it, but it isn't vapourware. And this is where you err. You
assume the iPhone is all marketing vapourware. It isn't. There is a
solid product behind all that marketing.

[harry newton]

He who is The Real Bev said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 14:42:17 -0800:

>> a. True, they learn he is boinking he through Facebook.
>> b. True, they learn him is boinking he through Facebook.
>> c. True, they learn he is boinking him through Facebook.
>
> BUT people who grew up in certain areas, or whose parents did, will in
> certain circumstances use constructions like "Him and John went to the
> movies" even though they are college-educated and NOT stupid; they just
> can't break the habit even though they KNOW better.
>
> Our friend, whose parents were from OK, asked us to tell him whenever he
> did it. We finally gave up. 65-year habits are hard to break without a
> more compelling reason than the vague desire to be more grammatical.

We all make typos and speakos - and we even make thinkos.

But if it happens all the time - then it's just stupidity since nobody is
ever taught in their grade school English class to use personal pronouns
incorrectly.

Pop Quiz:
a. "Him and him went to the movies"
a. "Him and he went to the movies"
a. "He and he went to the movies"

My point is that the beauty of personal prounouns is that we already know
how to use them. I do understand your point though, which is sometimes we
don't know how to use them.

For example, when someone asks if it's you on the phone, you respond:
a. "This is I"
b. "This is he"
c. "This is him"

Even I have to think twice to get that right. Do you?

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 17:48:18 -0500:

> the fact you cling to it shows just how ignorant you are.

I take that comment as rather humorous, given your posting history.

[nospam]

In article <p1rvkp$1v7b$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

>
> > the fact you cling to it shows just how ignorant you are.
>
> I take that comment as rather humorous, given your posting history.

what's humorous is you once again, snip everything to alter context.

it's what you do when shown to be wrong.

[harry newton]

He who is JF Mezei said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 17:52:59 -0500:

> This is where you make a mistake. Yes, Apple has very strong Marketing.
> But Apple is not just marketing. It also has very solid hardsware and
> software engineering.

Suffice to say that Apple HARDWARE is almost always in the top 10 of the
best current hardware out there. It's almost never the top hardware, but
it's very good hardware.

In many cases, Apple limits what the hardware can do (e.g., halving Wi-Fi
top speeds, eliminating FM radios, not including additional SIM slots or SD
slots or removable batteries, and that decision to remove the courageous
headphone jack, etc.).

> And while Jony Ive may have ruined the "icing on cake" with his UI
> style, the fact remains that there is solid engineering under the hood
> and lots of innovation.

I agree with you that, in general, *Apple only sells premium hardware* -
where it's not the hardware that cripples what the user can do with the
phone (e.g., not load any launcher they want, not use any app store they
want, not displsy wi-fi speeds graphically over time, not report the
correct cell tower unique id, not automatically record phone calls, etc.).

> "iPhone is secure" isn't vapourware invented by Apple Marketing.

I completely understand and agree with you that Apple has at least one
strong link so if the adversary absolutely must go frontal on your data,
then that adversary will have to work harder (just as they would if I
decided to encrypt my entire circa 2012 Android phone).

The problem is, as I noted with the French Maginot Line, that you can't
ignore all the other ways to get around that security - to the point that
the security itself is what makes you weak (because you trusted in it).

There are so many examples in history where people built what they thought
was a secure system, which turned out (fifty years later) to have been
compromised from the start (think Zimmermann Telegram, for example), that
it's not funny.

Two Questions Based on my Knowledge of History:
1. What makes you think this security is the only one on the planet that
hasn't been compromised?

2. What makes you think this security is the only one on the planet that
doesn't have a way to get around it.

The answer to both of those questions is that (a) it's been compromised,
and (b) even if it wasn't, they have a way around it.

My point though isn't even that. My point is that a consumer phone is an
inherently insecure device. It's like Marie Curie handling radioactive
polonium and radium or Harry Daghlian & Louis Slotin with uranium and NOT
dying from the exposure. Radiation is inherently dangerous, even for those
who understand it.

So are consumer phones with respect to privacy.

> There
> is real security engineering under the hood. Yes, Marleting takes
> advantage of it, but it isn't vapourware. And this is where you err. You
> assume the iPhone is all marketing vapourware. It isn't. There is a
> solid product behind all that marketing.

As you can imagine in the Silicon Valley, I have *plenty* of friends and
family who are in iEquipment. I ask every one "why", and the answer I
generally get is that it makes them *feel* safe.

So Apple Marketing did their job. In fact, it was sheer genius when they
offered to replace all non-Apple-branded chargers for example. Sheer and
utter genius. It made people *feel* safe! It really did. I can't believe
how many of my relatives jumped on that and it made them feel safe to have
an Apple-branded charger (as if only Apple volts and amps won't hurt you).

Nobody is safe even though Apple marketing makes its users *feel* safe.

Just as radiation is dangerous by its very nature, so do mobile phones leak
privacy by their very nature. It's not a secure device. Period.

If you *feel* secure ... that's great. But you're not.

[harry newton]

He who is JF Mezei said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 17:52:59 -0500:

> This is where you make a mistake. Yes, Apple has very strong Marketing.
> But Apple is not just marketing. It also has very solid hardsware and
> software engineering.

Suffice to say that Apple HARDWARE is almost always in the top 10 of the
best current hardware out there. It's almost never the top hardware, but
it's very good hardware.

In many cases, Apple limits what the hardware can do (e.g., halving Wi-Fi
top speeds, eliminating FM radios, not including additional SIM slots or SD
slots or removable batteries, and that decision to remove the courageous
headphone jack, etc.).

> And while Jony Ive may have ruined the "icing on cake" with his UI
> style, the fact remains that there is solid engineering under the hood
> and lots of innovation.

I agree with you that, in general, *Apple only sells premium hardware* -
where it's not the hardware that cripples what the user can do with the
phone (e.g., not load any launcher they want, not use any app store they
want, not displsy wi-fi speeds graphically over time, not report the
correct cell tower unique id, not automatically record phone calls, etc.).

> "iPhone is secure" isn't vapourware invented by Apple Marketing.

I completely understand and agree with you that Apple has at least one
strong link so if the adversary absolutely must go frontal on your data,
then that adversary will have to work harder (just as they would if I
decided to encrypt my entire circa 2012 Android phone).

The problem is, as I noted with the French Maginot Line, that you can't
ignore all the other ways to get around that security - to the point that
the security itself is what makes you weak (because you trusted in it).

There are so many examples in history where people built what they thought
was a secure system, which turned out (fifty years later) to have been
compromised from the start (think Zimmermann Telegram, for example), that
it's not funny.

Two Questions Based on my Knowledge of History:
1. What makes you think this security is the only one on the planet that
hasn't been compromised?

2. What makes you think this security is the only one on the planet that
doesn't have a way to get around it.

The answer to both of those questions is that (a) it's been compromised,
and (b) even if it wasn't, they have a way around it.

My point though isn't even that. My point is that a consumer phone is an
inherently insecure device. It's like Marie Curie handling radioactive
polonium and radium or Harry Daghlian & Louis Slotin with uranium and NOT
dying from the exposure. Radiation is inherently dangerous, even for those
who understand it.

So are consumer phones with respect to privacy.

> There
> is real security engineering under the hood. Yes, Marleting takes
> advantage of it, but it isn't vapourware. And this is where you err. You
> assume the iPhone is all marketing vapourware. It isn't. There is a
> solid product behind all that marketing.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 18:09:32 -0500:

> it's what you do when shown to be wrong.

Heh heh heh ...

[rbowman]

Consider yourself lucky. You haven't lived until you've spent 5 minutes
waiting for a coal train to go by before you can get where you're going.

[rbowman]

On 12/25/2017 02:46 PM, harry newton wrote:

> Apple doesn't care about the real world.

Sure they do. That's why they built in the limp home CPU setting for
when your irreplaceable battery is shot. Irreplaceable is probably the
wrong word for 'we made damn sure the user can't replace the battery.'

[rbowman]

On 12/25/2017 03:07 PM, harry newton wrote:
> So all you have to do is remember "him goes with whom" (and that "he goes
> with him").

Let's not get into non-traditional gender dating here.

[rbowman]

On 12/25/2017 03:53 PM, harry newton wrote:
> My point is that the beauty of personal prounouns is that we already know
> how to use them. I do understand your point though, which is sometimes we
> don't know how to use them.
> For example, when someone asks if it's you on the phone, you respond:
> a. "This is I"
> b. "This is he"
> c. "This is him"
>
> Even I have to think twice to get that right. Do you?

Proper response: "whaddya want to know for?"

[nospam]

In article <fadhqj...@mid.individual.net>, rbowman

<bow...@montana.com> wrote:

>
> Sure they do. That's why they built in the limp home CPU setting for
> when your irreplaceable battery is shot.

more ignorance. it doesn't 'limp home'.

performance *peaks* are limited, not the overall speed, something which
most people won't notice in normal use and is much better than the
sudden shutdowns that had been occurring.

it is also something that affects android phones and other devices
because it's due to battery chemistry.

> Irreplaceable is probably the
> wrong word for 'we made damn sure the user can't replace the battery.'

except that apple didn't do that at all, so irreplaceable is definitely
the wrong word.

all it takes is a screwdriver for those who want to do it themselves,
or many repair shops will be happy to replace it for those who don't.

numerous android phones as well as many other products have internal
batteries because it makes for a smaller and more reliable device.

some of those *other* products actually *do* have irreplaceable
batteries, such as -

the android essential phone, from andy rubin, the creator of android
itself:
<https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/05/essential-phone-teardown/>
The Essential PH-1 (aka Essential Phone) is designed to withstand
dents and scratches, but what happens if something breaks on the
inside? You can forget about fixing it yourself, apparently. The DIY
repair crew at iFixit has torn down Essential's handset, and it's
obvious that you're not meant to poke around inside. For one thing,
iFixit had to freeze the phone (and break the LCD) just to get inside
-- and even then, it still had to get past a mid-frame shield. The
USB-C port is soldered on to motherboard, and the abundance of
adhesives makes it likely that you'll break something if you somehow
didn't wreck the screen going in.

microsoft surface laptop:
<https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/17/15824670/microsoft-surface-teardown-
ifixit-impossible-repair>
There¹s no screws holding the case together, so the technicians were
forced to try and pry apart the Alcantara fabric, noting that it was
difficult to do without tearing it. Underneath, the individual
components are also difficult to remove: the keyboard is glued down,
and the motherboard is covered with a series of thermal pads. The
team also reports that they can¹t disconnect the battery until
several other components are removed, and once they get to it, they
found that it¹s glued directly to the case.
...
Their verdict? ³It¹s a glue-filled monstrosity. There is nothing
about it that is upgradable or long-lasting, and it literally can¹t
be opened without destroying it.²

google partnered with ubreakifix for battery replacements for the
pixel, which costs the same as what apple charges, $79:
<https://www.ubreakifix.com/google-repair/google-pixel-xl-repair/google-
pixel-xl-battery-replacement>
<https://www.ubreakifix.com/google-repair/google-pixel-2-xl-repair/googl
e-pixel-2-xl-battery-replacement>

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 12/25/2017 5:07 PM, harry newton wrote:
> He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 13:47:57 -0500:
>
>>> That's "boinking WHOM", you ignorant cretin!
>>>
>>
>> Inglish makes my brane hert.
>
> Whenever I see someone type "who" for "whom", it hurts my eyes.
>
> The funny thing is that everyone already knows how to use who and whom
> correctly since it follows the same rules as does he and him, she and her,
> they and them, etc.
>
> All personal pronouns follow the same rules.
>
> So all you have to do is remember "him goes with whom" (and that "he goes
> with him").
>
> Pop Quiz!
> Which sentence is correct?

> c. True, they learn he is boinking him through Facebook.

My grammar and punctuation are usually excellent but I must have been
out the day the good nuns taught "whom". It is just one of this things
that does not stick with me and, it seems, many do not know when "who"
is incorrectly used. But it can be understood by tough thorough
thought, though.

[harry newton]

He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 20:08:34 -0500:

> My grammar and punctuation are usually excellent but I must have been
> out the day the good nuns taught "whom". It is just one of this things
> that does not stick with me and, it seems, many do not know when "who"
> is incorrectly used. But it can be understood by tough thorough
> thought, though.

It's ok. We all have typos, speakos, thinkos, etc.

The easiest way to remember when to use "whom" is to substitute "him" in
the sentence. Him goes with whom.

For example:
a. For x the bell tolls - the bell tolls for (he/him).
Since it's "him", it becomes: For whom the bell tolls.

c. X is on the phone? - He/him is on the phone.
Since it's "he", it becomes: Who is on the phone?

a. X is the phone for? - The phone is for (he/him).
Since it's "him", it becomes: Whom is the phone for?

It's easy because all personal pronouns follow the same rules.
So you just substitute a personal pronoun whose rule you already know.

When you use him or her, then it gets whom.
When you use he or she, then it gets who.

Simple. It's like how you know how tight to tighten a bolt without a torque
wrench. You just get a feel for it over time. Or how you remember which way
to turn a bolt when you're upside down under the engine. You get a feel for
it over time. It just takes practice.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 19:44:18 -0500:

>> Sure they do. That's why they built in the limp home CPU setting for
>> when your irreplaceable battery is shot.
>

> performance *peaks* are limited, not the overall speed, something which
> most people won't notice in normal use and is much better than the
> sudden shutdowns that had been occurring.

Um, nospam.
It's funny you Apple Apologists even deny what Apple already *admitted*.

Have you again *ignored* the permanent and drastic CPU slowdown readings
that users are reporting from the reddit post using the CPU Dasher X app?

The secret CPU slowdowns are permanent (per configuration), and drastic!
<https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7inu45/psa_iphone_slow_try_replacing_your_battery/>

> it is also something that affects android phones and other devices
> because it's due to battery chemistry.

Um. No again. If you were in high school, your score of flipping a coin
would earn you an "F" overall on your accuracy of answers.

Zero Android manufacturer has been reported to be secretly, permanently,
and drastically slowing down CPU performance merely on the basis of
upgrading to the latest operating system.

It's funny you Apple Apologists even deny what Apple already *admitted*.

[harry newton]

He who is rbowman said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 17:01:23 -0700:

>> Apple doesn't care about the real world.
>
> Sure they do. That's why they built in the limp home CPU setting for
> when your irreplaceable battery is shot. Irreplaceable is probably the
> wrong word for 'we made damn sure the user can't replace the battery.'

What I meant was that Linux is in the real world and yet Apple doesn't
"support" Linux, nor do they even *test* their devices in the real world.

That's why connectivity broke with Linux when iOS users upgraded iOS from
something as minor as iOS 7.0.0 to 7.0.1 (ask me how I know).

Apple only tests inside the walled garden, where almost all the critical
vulnerabilities were because they released insecure software. What's funny
is that *many* of the iOS releases are highly insecure, and Apple knows
that it's insecure at the time they release it (e.g., iOS 10.x with the
broadcom bugs where Apple had the fix in hand and *still* released an
highly insecure release).

When you wonder why, you find out that Apple users are very happy just to
have release after release after release after release after release. It
makes them *feel* safe even though some of them Apple has to destroy,
they're that insecure!

[nospam]

In article <p1si0p$jnk$4...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

> That's why connectivity broke with Linux when iOS users upgraded iOS from
> something as minor as iOS 7.0.0 to 7.0.1 (ask me how I know).

no, that's not why.

connectivity broke because the driver was *not* written by apple, but
instead written by a third party, who didn't do a very good job and was
unable to test with an unreleased product, as is common with linux.

[rbowman]

On 12/25/2017 05:44 PM, nospam wrote:
> performance *peaks* are limited, not the overall speed, something which
> most people won't notice in normal use and is much better than the
> sudden shutdowns that had been occurring.

Yeah, sudden shutdowns in an expensive phone aren't good.Unfortunately
people did notice the slowdown in normal use or this wouldn't even be
being discussed. Nor would there be a class action suit in the making:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/22/apple-faces-two-lawsuits-over-intentional-iphone-slowdowns/

> all it takes is a screwdriver for those who want to do it themselves,
> or many repair shops will be happy to replace it for those who don't.

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+X+Teardown/98975

This site does a tear down when a new Apple phone comes out. They don't
guarantee you can put it back together. This iteration has both
pentalobe and tripoint screws, just what everybody has laying around.
Fortunately there is a cottage industry that has grown up around
supplying drivers for the weird fasteners Apple keeps inventing. And
don't expect to replace the rear glass.

Of course the Galaxy isn't any better:

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+S8%2B+Teardown/87086

It takes a serious set of balls to chisel your way into a smartphone to
replace the battery. I'll stick with my flip phone, thank you.

[The Real Bev]

I didn't know about Official Grammar Stuff until I took a foreign
language in high school; until then I made it up (correctly, as it
turned out) as I went along :-)

--
Cheers, Bev
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

[JF Mezei]

On 2017-12-25 23:08, harry newton wrote:

> Have you again *ignored* the permanent and drastic CPU slowdown readings
> that users are reporting from the reddit post using the CPU Dasher X app?

Until you provide evidence that thsi is "permanent", please stop using
that word. You've been asked to provide evidence and you haven't.

If you want to have intelligent conversation, please stop using
exagerations and be factual.

[JF Mezei]

On 2017-12-25 23:33, rbowman wrote:

> Yeah, sudden shutdowns in an expensive phone aren't good.Unfortunately
> people did notice the slowdown in normal use or this wouldn't even be
> being discussed. Nor would there be a class action suit in the making:

The problem surfaced early last year. (for me at least). Apple admitted
to it and started battery replacement late last year and shortly issued
patches to IOS to deal with it.

So those slowdowns have been happening for over a year, yet, it has on;y
NOW surfaced because someone did a test. So it seems to me like people
didn't quite notice.

I didn't notice a slowdown. I just noticed the phone starting to
shutdown when I turns on camera after being outside in cold for a while.

[nospam]

In article <vvl0C.77959$bJ2....@fx07.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> So those slowdowns have been happening for over a year, yet, it has on;y
> NOW surfaced because someone did a test. So it seems to me like people
> didn't quite notice.

exactly.

[harry newton]

He who is JF Mezei said on Tue, 26 Dec 2017 00:53:00 -0500:

> Until you provide evidence that thsi is "permanent", please stop using
> that word. You've been asked to provide evidence and you haven't.

You Apple Apologists sure are funny in how you fabricate non permanence
when *every* article on the subject tells you the *only* solution is to
replace the battery.

None of them say ... "oh just wait a while and it will go away on its own".

You iOS apologists are like the people who leave their dog poop on the
sidewalk in that you can't *comprehend* what is in *every* article on the
subject. There's no battery fairy that "fixes" batteries while you're
sleeping.

Every article says the same thing.
It's you Apple Apologists who can't comprehend simple basic facts.

It's like an article says a person is dead, and you Apple Apologists are
asking whether it says they're "permanently dead".

You Apple Apologistgs can't seem to comprehend the *simplest* of facts.

> If you want to have intelligent conversation, please stop using
> exagerations and be factual.

Let me give you a simple fact, although I realize you're an Apple
Apologistgs so you can't seem to comprehend it.

When a news article says a person is dead, they don't say "permanently
dead" because even Apple Apologists are supposed to understand that dead
means permanently dead.

When a news article says a house burned down and that the only solution is
to build a new one, they don't say it's "permanently burned down" - you're
simply expected to understand that you "can" replace a burned down home.

When a news article says the *only* solution is to replace the battery,
they don't need to explain to you, like they would to a five year old
child, that there is no battery fairy that magically fixes batteries while
you sleep.

What is so very wrong with you Apple Apologists that you can't comprehend
the *simples* of *obvious* facts?

Here is a fact for you Apple Apologists.
There is no battery fairy.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 23:30:40 -0500:

> connectivity broke because the driver was *not* written by apple, but
> instead written by a third party, who didn't do a very good job and was
> unable to test with an unreleased product, as is common with linux.

You Apple Apologists come up with the best "I didn't inhale" excuses for
when Apple breaks connectivity to Linux which Apple themselves says they
won't support so they don't test anything with Linux in the real world.

There's an entire thread on this topic where you got your head handed to
you because you make up such silly things that it was all Linux' fault
because Apple released softwaqre that broke everything and then didn't even
bother to respond to their own customer's support requests - saying only
that the real world is "not supported".

The only world Apple supports is inside the walled garden.
That's a fact.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Tue, 26 Dec 2017 00:59:05 -0500:

>> So those slowdowns have been happening for over a year, yet, it has on;y
>> NOW surfaced because someone did a test. So it seems to me like people
>> didn't quite notice.
>
> exactly.

You Apple Apologists sure are a funny lot.
You can't comprehend the simplest of obvious facts.

There are very many posts where people complain incessantly that each
successive iOS release slows down their phone drastically.

How do you iOS Apologists miss the most obvious things on the net?

Click this link for heaven's sake.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ios+slows+down+phone>

[harry newton]

He who is rbowman said on Mon, 25 Dec 2017 21:33:36 -0700:

> It takes a serious set of balls to chisel your way into a smartphone to
> replace the battery. I'll stick with my flip phone, thank you.

I have an S3 which is so old that I can get backs for it for $1 in
single-unit increments.

That's great because I have a 7,000mAh battery and external chargers for
all my additional normal-sized batteries, such that I keep a battery in
each car's glovebox, along with a corresponding back.

I just bought 4 LG Stylo 3 Plus phablets, all with a removable battery.

To me, the battery is what kills the phone - not anything else.

A non-removable battery (using the typical terms) on a phone makes the
iPhone nearly worthless as a long-term tool.

[nospam]

In article <p1tn2h$g3b$3...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

> There are very many posts where people complain incessantly that each
> successive iOS release slows down their phone drastically.

the reason is because after a new ios upgrade, the system is rebuilding
caches, reindexing files, etc.

performance will improve after the caches are rebuilt, and more so
after all of the background processing is complete, at which point,
everything is back to normal.

except that the (inaccurate) first impressions remain. nobody checks
the performance a week later.

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 25 Dec 2017 20:53:51 -0800, The Real Bev
<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I didn't know about Official Grammar Stuff until I took a foreign
>language in high school; until then I made it up (correctly, as it
>turned out) as I went along :-)

I'm not perfect, but my English grammar is pretty good. Like you, I
learned most of it in my high school Latin class.

[The Real Bev]

French and Spanish, pretty much the same. Latin, same stuff, just lots
more endings and odd new stuff like pronouncing Venus Way-noose :-) How
did Mr. Bregoli know?

If you read a lot I think you pick up the rules subliminally. You also
pick up vocabulary. How many kids still read books besides Harry Potter
and Game of Thrones?

--
Cheers, Bev
Teamwork: A bunch of people running around doing what I tell them.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2017-12-26 15:11, harry newton wrote:
> He who is JF Mezei said on Tue, 26 Dec 2017 00:53:00 -0500:
>
>> Until you provide evidence that thsi is "permanent", please stop using
>> that word. You've been asked to provide evidence and you haven't.
>
> You Apple Apologists sure are funny in how you fabricate non permanence
> when *every* article on the subject tells you the *only* solution is to
> replace the battery.

We are not Apple Apologists.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2017-12-26 15:53, nospam wrote:
> In article <p1tn2h$g3b$3...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton
> <ha...@is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> There are very many posts where people complain incessantly that each
>> successive iOS release slows down their phone drastically.
>
> the reason is because after a new ios upgrade, the system is rebuilding
> caches, reindexing files, etc.

Almost every system upgrade of any operating system makes the machine
slower, simply because they have new features, they are bigger, use more
memory, and sometimes they run more default tasks on background. So it
is expected and normal that after an upgrade machines feel slower.
Drastically slower, no.

Sometimes they run faster because they managed to optimize things.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

Many Android phones also have non-replaceable batteries. This is
unfortunate, but also batteries last longer than say, 5 years ago.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[harry newton]

He who is Carlos E.R. said on Tue, 26 Dec 2017 20:36:35 +0100:

>> A non-removable battery (using the typical terms) on a phone makes the
>> iPhone nearly worthless as a long-term tool.
>
> Many Android phones also have non-replaceable batteries. This is
> unfortunate, but also batteries last longer than say, 5 years ago.

When you just pop in a battery like I do, so that you always keep a few
charging on the wall with external battery chargers, you'll begin to
appreciate that a consumer-removable battery is a luxury that greatly adds
to the life of the phone.

Even nospam has been arguing that run-down batteries decrease the life of
the phone.

To me, any phone with a non-removable battery sure had better be almost
free, to be worth the restriction.

[harry newton]

He who is Carlos E.R. said on Tue, 26 Dec 2017 20:33:49 +0100:

> Almost every system upgrade of any operating system makes the machine
> slower, simply because they have new features, they are bigger, use more
> memory, and sometimes they run more default tasks on background. So it
> is expected and normal that after an upgrade machines feel slower.
> Drastically slower, no.
>
> Sometimes they run faster because they managed to optimize things.

You Apple Apologists are funny people.
Have you even looked at the SIZE of the slowdown?
It's drastic. It's huge. It's phenomenally large.

Even Apple has admitted it.

Apple secretly, drastically, and permanently slows down phone CPUs with
each iOS update.

The best solution is to do what I've always done.
Don't update to the next iOS release.

That's the best speed trick ever.

[harry newton]

He who is nospam said on Tue, 26 Dec 2017 09:53:03 -0500:

>> There are very many posts where people complain incessantly that each
>> successive iOS release slows down their phone drastically.
>
> the reason is because after a new ios upgrade, the system is rebuilding
> caches, reindexing files, etc.
>
> performance will improve after the caches are rebuilt, and more so
> after all of the background processing is complete, at which point,
> everything is back to normal.
>
> except that the (inaccurate) first impressions remain. nobody checks
> the performance a week later.

Except that Apple has admitted it permanently, drastically, and secretly
slowed down the very CPU in the Apple 6's and 7's with successive iOS
updates.

So people who complained that their CPU slowed down were correct.

[harry newton]

He who is Carlos E.R. said on Tue, 26 Dec 2017 20:29:25 +0100:

> We are not Apple Apologists.

Anyone who insists that a dying battery will magically be rejuvenated by
the battery fairy, which is essentially what he was claiming by requesting
someone to find the word "permanent" in the description.

It's like someone's house burns down and he wants the word "permanent" in
front of it, as in it's "permanently burned down".

Everyone but the Apple Apologists seem to understand that there is no
battery fairy. Hence only the Apple Apologists require the word 'permanent
in front of the words "the only way to solve the problem is to put in a new
battery", which is what all the articles are stating.

[nospam]

In article <tpkahe-...@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> >> There are very many posts where people complain incessantly that each
> >> successive iOS release slows down their phone drastically.
> >
> > the reason is because after a new ios upgrade, the system is rebuilding
> > caches, reindexing files, etc.
>
> Almost every system upgrade of any operating system makes the machine
> slower, simply because they have new features, they are bigger, use more
> memory, and sometimes they run more default tasks on background. So it
> is expected and normal that after an upgrade machines feel slower.
> Drastically slower, no.

the new features might be slower, but the baseline performance will be
roughly the same, sometimes faster. ios 9 was noticeably faster than
ios 8 overall, for example.

the point is that after an upgrade, internal caches and indexes must be
rebuilt, which takes time, except that it's during that time the user
is noticing a slowdown, both because of the background processing to
rebuild and because the caches and indexes are missing or incomplete

once all of that is done, everything is back to normal, but they've
already decided the upgrade is slower.

> Sometimes they run faster because they managed to optimize things.

yes.

[nospam]

In article <p1ubh6$1gnm$3...@gioia.aioe.org>, harry newton

<ha...@is.invalid> wrote:

> Have you even looked at the SIZE of the slowdown?
> It's drastic. It's huge. It's phenomenally large.

absolutely false.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2017-12-26 21:30, harry newton wrote:
> He who is Carlos E.R. said on Tue, 26 Dec 2017 20:33:49 +0100:
>
>> Almost every system upgrade of any operating system makes the machine
>> slower, simply because they have new features, they are bigger, use more
>> memory, and sometimes they run more default tasks on background. So it
>> is expected and normal that after an upgrade machines feel slower.
>> Drastically slower, no.
>>
>> Sometimes they run faster because they managed to optimize things.
>
> You Apple Apologists are funny people.

Yeah, sure. I don't have any Apple thing, never had, I don't like Apple,
yet as I call you wrong, you say I'm an apologist. Yeah, sure. Proof
that you are entirely wrong.

--
Cheers, Carlos.