Organizational Discussion

[Gary Cygiel]

I know nobody wants to talk about it, but we need to set aside some time to talk about organizing the group.  I was hoping to compile a list of things we need to discuss.

We need to discuss how decisions will be made.  We need to figure who we need (president, treasurer, board, etc.) and precisely what we expect of people.  We need to discuss some sort of dues since there are already things we want to buy for the group and if we want to grow we are going to need cool things/projects to attract people.  We need to discuss incorporating and if we want to go the non-profit route.  We don't have to discuss all these things at once.  Really, we could just elect some people to be in charge and then let them figure the rest out, but I'd prefer everyone to be involved within reason. 

List of things to discuss:

* Organizational Structure

* Dues

* Incorporation

[Martin Passmore]

Probably most people already know about this resource, but just for the record:

http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Documentation

--might save us from reinventing the bicycle but getting the handlebars crossed....

martin

PS: Anybody paying attention to the change in patent laws (AIA), from first-to-invent to first-to-file? The one good thing that came out of it is that establishing prior art should now be MUCH more efficient (public process to challenge silly or unnecessary patents).

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[Gary Cygiel]

I just updated our hackerspaces.org entry.  Feel free to check it out here.  I lifted the description from the webpage Amal set up.

[ThatGuy]

Hi everyone,

I agree with Gary that we need to set aside some time to talk about the group and make some decisions. I also think it's likely that nobody wants to talk about it, specifically incorporation, because their goals and intentions regarding the group are not aligned with paying dues or incorporating. For example, here's my stance on my interest with the group and it's direction;

- I'm interested in the group as a social event where I can discuss and explore my own projects with others, as well as explore and discuss other people's projects... and smell maple bacon beer floating around the table from time to time.

- My projects don't involve anything that needs to be 3D printed, or require a plasma cutter or drill press. Because of this, I'm not really bummed out that we don't have any of these tools at the hackerspace.

- I'm not sure (at the moment) that I'd be all that into paying dues to fund a group project. It would have to be a project I was very interested in and passionate about seeing through, and I'm sure it would need to be the same for others as well if they were going to spend time and money on it... so getting a consensus from every dues paying member on a group project might be more trouble than it's worth.

- I would really only be interested in incorporating, and taking on all that it involves (board duties, funding, record keeping, bookkeeping, filing fees, etc.) if we had a corporate sponsor and/or a grant behind it. I realize this can be kind of a chicken/egg problem as many corps/grants want there to be an entity to back first, but if there was interest from outside to fund the incorporation process and/or a project, then I can see it being worthwhile. The only other way I could see this working out is if a core group of people got behind it, got it done and filed (which costs time and $), and had a plan for immediately going out and doing some fundraising in the community (businesses & individuals). Without successful fundraising efforts, group members who are admittedly too poor to dump any serious money into their own projects or even just buy tools like drill presses or commercial 3D printers, would be taking on an additional financial burden just so we could all toss in on a group project that possibly only some of us may be enthusiastic about... or get some free tidbits from electronics manufacturers.

So as it stands now, for my part, I'm interested in meeting in a purely social capacity, as regularly as I can, in a free space generously donated by Tyler and the BIL. However, I'm also interested in seeing if anyone else is interested in going through with the time and cost and commitment required to form a nonprofit corporation - especially if we can canvas the community to find out if there would be any financial support for such an endeavor in downtown Bellingham. We might have to put on some community services like basic electronics classes for kids or something, but so be it if we can get outside funding to build a rocket or whatever. What I'm not into is shouldering the process and cost of incorporating without a clear, well, for lack of a better phrase, a clear business plan... a good reason why.

Looks like I'm going to be unable to attend on Friday, but if they have a webcam and skype there, I can be there digitally :) Imagine... my mug on the big screen!

Amal

[Mario Kuo]

Hi Gary,

It's the best thing that you're willing to talk about!

 

HackBham, once incorporated, can kick off immediate services to our prospective members (free or fee based) already: Buying, Selling, Sharing, or Swapping spare parts, Tools, Projects, or SKILLS...

Planning to talk about it Friday? 

Mark

would enjoy a space where we can can 

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Gary Cygiel <gary....@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Chris Matson]

Gary,

                I also agree with Mark that this is very important for the health and longevity of the organization. Mark made a good point some time ago regarding group funding. The creation and publication of a “newspaper” type magazine targeting tech oriented individuals, and selling advertising space to businesses interested in gaining customers from this demographic. This could realistically create income for the organization thereby eliminating the need to charge dues to members for purchase of desired goods. This could even lead to the funds necessary for renting/leasing a dedicated Hack Space. It is food for thought.

                I have not attended meetings for some time as I have some time consuming projects and interests. I would love to discuss the project I am currently involved in but the disclosure statement signed by me prevents it.

                Greetings and Salutations to known group members (you know who you are) and to all of you I have yet to meet. Best wishes for the continued health and prosperity of the group as a whole.

                Chris Matson

[Mario Kuo]

Hey Chris,

Nice to hear your support, loud and clear!   :  )

Now we have four YEAs... Thank you!

How're you SVC hackers making out? Talk to you Fri?

Mark

[Chris Matson]

Hi Mark,

                Good to hear from you and to be heard. Deep in a serious database design referred to me by one of my instructors. When completed and it goes to market you will be able to see what it is. Here is a hint: El _Descendimiento  (it will take some time to load)

                As for the Skagit chapter of hackers, Charles is back in town but working long hours. I think you may have heard from him. Otherwise, few of us are still in contact.

                I would love to come up on Friday but can’t make any promises at this time. Hope you fare well until we meet again my friend.

Chris Matson

[Mario Kuo]

Oops! It hasn't loaded since...will wait when it goes to market. Please say hello to Charles, Justin, and David...hope to see you guys up here again!  Mark

[Chris Matson]

Use Firefox or Google Chrome to load the image. It is a large file.

[Jen Ratfield]

Hey Mark,

I'd add a fifth yea to that vote.  We really need some kind of structure, if not for the nonprofit paperwork then for coordinating people and getting things done.  A president/chairman/dictator-for-life and treasurer would probably be a good start.

On Amal's comment - One of the main reasons I go to the meetings is to listen to the ramblings and idea-swappings of intelligent minds.   You don't need more tools than people are already willing to bring with them for that.  But I would be rather interested in an affordable group project of some kind just to get to know the guys and learn something new.  I am not opposed to paying reasonable dues just to keep having a meeting space (someone last week mentioned meeting at their house for free and that's fine too; I am new to the group and don't know its history yet).

It seems like an issue that kept coming up last week was getting more members. What about doing a simple group project as a sort of membership drive to give people a reason to come?  And for spreading the word about the group in general, I would be willing to go to hardware and electronic component stores in the Skagit Valley area to post fliers, if that is agreeable to the other members.

Jen

P.S. not sure if I'll make it tomorrow night - there's a wedding in the family and I'm helping out.

[Mario Kuo]

Will try again...was using Google Chrome. Tks Chris!

[Gary Cygiel]

Last Friday we discussed organization a bit and to summarize that discussion:

• Most people agree with the idea of appointing some form of leader and a treasurer.  Trill seems to have volunteered as treasurer.  
• Most people seemed comfortable with the idea of dues with the restriction that they be reasonable.  We should discuss a more concrete idea of what is meant by reasonable tomorrow.
• Most people agree that we need to incorporate, but there seemed to be confusion over how to incorporate (federal non-profit, state non-profit, for profit, etc.)

My personal view is that dues are important.  The space we are using right now is $200/mo.  I think $50/mo/member is a reasonable target right now.  For now, this could fund the purchase of shared tools like irons and programmers.  It could fund the purchase of components and ways to organize components.  Ultimately we will need it to fund a physical space that we call home...it is really hard to figure out who will pay when we actually have a space.  Right now, $50/mo primarily shows a commitment to the future of the space.  It would also be nice to have a savings to be able to outfit a space once we attain critical mass.  If you can't donate cash, maybe you could donate time, but preferably everyone will want to do a little of both.  

We can discuss it further on Friday.  We should designate someone to take notes so it doesn't turn out like my pretty terrible summary of last weeks discussion.

[Mario Kuo]

Great! 

Now, we need to channel our support to Amal and Gary who were courageous enough to dig up hot potatoes...  :  )

May be we can have a SkyPe conference set up if you guys can not be at the discussion tomorrow? (In this case we'll need your cell number or call in my SkyPe at 360-205.3655? Thank you Jen! Talk to you soon. Mark 

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[Chris Matson]

$50 per month? Guess that counts me out as a member of this org.

[Jennifer Ratfield]

I am very curious to hear how the meeting went tonight.  It's probably too late for comments from the peanut gallery, but $50 seems a bit steep, especially since we don't know which direction the group is going yet and therefore don't know what we're getting for our dues.  It also seems like charging that much would essentially preclude any student involvement with the group, unless you can convince a student to come and do $50 worth of sweeping at Big Idea Labs each month.  For now I would consider something closer to $20, plus the cost of parts if a person ever decided to participate in a group project of some kind.  Offering a discounted student membership might be a good idea for increasing participation, too.  We don't have any real expenses yet, and once we do we could always amend dues if necessary.  Anyway, that's my two cents worth.  I hope to hear an update on this topic from somebody soon!

Jen

[Martin Passmore]

I missed the beginning and then had to admit to failing my very first task, which was to ask my friend Bill Wright about the 501 C (4) process that we went through for LinuxFestNorthwest. This time I wrote it down as a To-do....

I hope the first-approximation of a suggested membership fee does not frighten anybody off. We have the most important ingredients--people, passion and a diversity of skill and interest; we can make the rest happen.

We all love the talk and discussion, but I sense a bit of apprehension that without more consensus on a process leading eventually to a real physical social/shop/learning space or spaces, the other pressures on people's time and resources will prevail. So here's my first stab at designing such a process:

- Each of us decide two things: the range of financial investment we would consider (differentiating between membership dues and usage/workshop fees); and what facilities, and projects--perhaps ranked--we judge personally most important. 

- We look for overlap and the degree of consensus. Possibly we summarize these results into a questionnaire as the second stage iteration.

This is all probably best done online, perhaps emailed to the website. The Documentation Wiki at hackerspaces.org is a good resource to tap into others' experience and ideas. There is a HUGE range in the fees/facilities ratio and core focus of older groups, and we have to have a realistic understanding of where our present energy and resources actually lie in this context, as well as the local realities of rent, availability etc.

I appreciate the comfort and convenience of Big Idea, but like the student members, $40-50 a month is much more than I can afford on a continuing basis. But other groups have learned that enough small continual contributions can add up over time. To use a bank or credit union (other than just having an extra account tacked on to a member's existing private one) an organization has to go through some incorporation process and get the appropriate state and federal tax identification. Since there seems already to be agreement that we will eventually need space and gear and utilities, we can't avoid the money issue. (Which we did with BLUG until the annual Fest got too big, and with ReLectronics. But in both cases we had a hosting entity giving us space). But we could build a nest-egg if we don't set out to implement the permanent space immediately. We could invest in portable equipment, however.

In the interim we could subdivide into "cells" and have (weekly?) meetings on a geographical or SIG/project basis in cafes--the idea being that the space is more or less free although too noisy for more than a small group, but has internet access and is easier to organize. The main meetings, which need a larger space and have to juggle transportation could then be monthly. (Should we map our membership on the site, perhaps anonymously?)

I see two interim solutions for the workspace issue. I've mentioned the storage-unit idea, and the container notion has also come up. These can be dropped off and parked in many storage facilities, but possibly also in more easily-reached places. Power, web and secure distributed access would all be difficult but conceivably more doable than rent. What about some kind of trailer? What would it cost to build one from scratch, or modify a semi-trailer? (We're s'posed to be hackers, after all...)

Here's another approach. We get incorporated, build a budget and a nucleus of portable equipment; maybe run a series of small Arduino or breadboarding workshops in temporary locations, and see if BTC  would see us as a symbiotic resource for their students and let us use space there

Sorry this is so long. Too late in the evening to prune it

martin

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Jennifer Ratfield <jrat...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am very curious to hear how the meeting went tonight.  It's probably too late for comments from the peanut gallery, but $50 seems a bit steep, especially since we don't know which direction the group is going yet and therefore don't know what we're getting for our dues.  It also seems like charging that much would essentially preclude any student involvement with the group, unless you can convince a student to come and do $50 worth of sweeping at Big Idea Labs each month.  For now I would consider something closer to $20, plus the cost of parts if a person ever decided to participate in a group project of some kind.  Offering a discounted student membership might be a good idea for increasing participation, too.  We don't have any real expenses yet, and once we do we could always amend dues if necessary.  Anyway, that's my two cents worth.  I hope to hear an update on this topic from somebody soon!

Jen

--

[Gary Cygiel]

$50/mo was just a starting point of the discussion...it had to start somewhere.  We also discussed the idea of dues in kind which would simply be someone providing something of value to the space like teaching a class or running a workshop that generates income for the space.  We don't want to exclude anyone simply because they are unable to contribute.  Ideally we'd have some kind of system where all members contribute something of value in whatever way they can and feel comfortable with.

[Jen Ratfield]

Sorry folks, but apparently I'm still learning how to use Google Groups.  I recently had a private email conversation with a couple of group members which I had intended to be public posts.  The long and the short of it is that Mark/tekbie liked a couple of things that I brought up in my post on October 26th and asked if I would spearhead some kind discussion on activities and organizational structure.

My response was: 

--------------------------

Mark, this is an awesome group and I'm happy to help in any way I can, but I'm a very new member.  It seems to me that right now we have a wonderfully open forum where anyone can present ideas; my hope is that our discussions will lead to a group consensus that is put into action.

HacDC has a nice, short set of bylaws.  I like that they have only 4 volunteer officers and each member has one vote.  A member is someone who pays their dues and supports the vision of the group.  They do have $50/person/month dues, but members do get a key and 24-hour access to their facility.  Their events are free and open to the public.  I.e., you can show up to every "Microcontroller Monday" and do...well, basically what we seem to be doing at every meeting, and not pay a cent.  You can participate for free.  But if you want to vote or hold office, you have to pay dues.  Our group has a promising supply of potential participants/members in BTC and WWU, so I would like to see either free public participation like HacDC or cheap ($10/month?) student memberships.  I'd hate to see membership fees as an obstacle to our growth, especially now in our fledgling stages.

Someone mentioned another great model hackerspace in the US - does anybody remember which group that was?

Martin, thank you so very much for the update; I really appreciate it.  The hackerspaces.org wiki is an excellent resource; I am just beginning to tap into it.  The Chaos Computer Club has a short powerpoint about starting up hackerspaces that is quite encouraging.  And Gary, thank you for being the first courageous person to throw out a number for people to chew on.  We really need to be throwing more ideas and alternatives out for public discussion right now.

Jen

P.S. - I'm gone again this week at a prior engagement that I had forgotten about.  Could someone please post the meeting notes again this Friday?  Thank you!

--------------------------

After that email, Mark still seemed interested in having me "help draft an organizing (or business) plan to present to our prospective members by Friday."  In response to that request, I have created a Google Document for brainstorming, discussing, playing with, and tweaking a set of bylaws.  You can access it at:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qTvRDeFhjiYBnballJCvwcqtmy89ElFFRD1PM7zkWUQ/edit

Please take a look at it and please make comments. If you guys don't like it, it certainly won't hurt my feelings if you say so.

I won't make it to the meeting on Friday due to a prior commitment but I will make myself available as much as possible.  Sorry about the forum mistake!

-Jen

[Martin Passmore]

(Organizing thoughts)

I came down with the flu, so I missed the BLUG meeting last night and don't think I ought to come tonight--I wouldn't wish this on anyone...

But I talked with my friend Bill Wright, who is the treasurer for BLUG and the LinuxFest. He said that they worked with a couple of accountants, although that might not really be necessary. He might come one Friday and talk to the group, but here are the main points he gave me so far:

The first part of the process is to register with the state as a non-profit. This will give us the right to open a bank account; and if I remember correctly that's because it gives us a tax #. Then we apply to the IRS: they have tightened the entry for 501 C-3 and LxFNW got just a C-4. This might actually have some advantages, for instance were we to take up a particular advocacy position on IP issues, for instance. It also makes the annual filing simpler.

Here's my thoughts on some other aspects.

Fees:

We're between a rock and a hard place here: we want to be as inclusive as possible, so that rules out anything like $50/month as the only membership option (even I can afford to give up 2 cups of coffee a month. The equivalent per week is no longer maintainable). But we clearly need control of a space at some point, never mind the potentially quite expensive stuff on our wishlist. So we need some plan for building both a capital pool and an operations stream, both obviously far beyond what we can hope to accumulate from a dozen or so tenners a month. Credit for volunteer time could well be an important part of the operating mix, but we will first need quite a bit of cash to interact with the world outside.

I think this implies two things:

-- We need to do fundraising; for instance educational workshops, which has the side benefits of deepening our experience of working together as a team and beginning to establish a reputation, a "brand". It's possible that we could do this in a coordinated way with like-minded people in the area, BAIRS, for instance, or possibly the Radio Museum. So far I haven't thought of other activities, but that ought to be a workable starting point. It's possible also that we could become a clearing house for tutoring on an individual basis, and members could donate their time or earnings for facilities credit down the road.

-- We could plan to have tiered memberships, with differing privileges in regard to use of facilities, and conceivably of voting rights (need to discuss this early for the Articles. Some professional organizations do this). There's a chicken-egg problem here, because until we have facilities there's really not much we can offer in return for a higher premium. Once we have a workspace it becomes a different story, and we can have a much more complex internal economy.

Any marketer will tell you that establishing our brand will have unexpected benefits, so is a serious objective on its own. If we had a team who do demonstrations in schools or at fairs or conventions it could eventually well repay the investment. (My ambitious energy project might fit this category if it appeals to anyone else)

I have one more comment, that arises from the "Chaos" piece: they warn about gifts of space, etc. But our experience with BLUG at BTC is an exception. Both our monthly public meetings and the annual fest are hosted there, and I do believe that BHS is equally in resonance with their objectives. I don't know how we should go about exploring this. A similar thing happened in the early 1980's with the cooperation of the AS at WWU, when they hosted our fledgling recycling group. This arrangement worked long enough for us to be able to establish to the City's satisfaction that they could redo their contracts. With the cooperation of the garbage haulers this firmly established curbside pickup for recycling. We eventually morphed into ReSources. (I'm told that the beauracracy at Western would no longer cover this possibility).

And then in due course ReSources hosted ReLectronics until they had to move out of the old building, And we ourselves have already benefited from the generosity of both Mark Kuo and BigIdea. I think the principle we can appeal to is the same as the rationale behind parenting: "pass it on".

 

Jen--the Articles look fine to me unless we decide to tinker with membership, as above. The only thing I noticed that we could simplify is the quorum part, since we could just adopt their final position without having to refer to the amendment process they evidently went through.

Here's the result of my initial search ("register non profit organization wa")--bunch of pdf's from the secretary of state's office:

http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/registration_forms.aspx:

DOMESTIC NONPROFIT CORPORATION  Chapter 24.03 RCW

 Application to Form a Nonprofit Corporation

 NEW Fillable Nonprofit Annual Report (all fields are required)

 Articles of Amendment - Nonprofit Corporation

martin

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[Gary Cygiel]

I can't make it tonight either.  Also, I've asked for a copy of all the documents filed for the 501c3 at my prior space.  They agreed to get them, but have to find them and scan them first.  Not sure how long it will take, but hopefully I will have them in time for the meeting next week.  

[Paul de Armond]

If you haven't been to a meeting recently, this Friday would be a good time to attend.

I've consulted with a friend of mine who was the corporate counsel for the Northwest Ecosystem Alliance (or whatever the hell it is that they are now calling themselves.  In a nutshell:

1) Federal 501(c)3 status is not necessary, but can be very useful.  It takes a while, but it's just paperwork and not much of it as these things go.

2) If you are planning on doing fundraising filing with the Secretary of State and incorporating is a good idea.  Here's the link to the Sec State page on nonprofits.  Note that there are two PDF guidebooks for the perplexed on that page.  Registering a nonprofit with the state first and later doing the 501(c)3 is efficient and economical.  There's no downside to doing it in two stages.

3) You don't have to file anything with anybody in order to act as a voluntary association with dues, meetings, etc.  However, it is necessary to keep accurate financial records of money in and money out, from who, to who, when, etc.  A spreadsheet is enough.  The point is records are a good idea if and when you later go for the state nonprofit charity (to enable fundrai$ing) and perhaps later federal 501(c)3 status.  Applying for 501(c)3 will involve an accountant at some point and you don't want to make their life too miserable.

The short answer is that none of this is very hard, so don't fret about it or make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Paul de Armond

ps.  I'm planning on coming this Friday and am recruiting two friends as potential members.

[Steven Bochinski]

Laura & I are hosting the BLUG(linux group) picnic on Saturday, since
there is so much overlap, I thought I'd invite the BHS too :)
Please drop me a note directly for the address if you don't already
have it. Also we'll probably be going later than 6pm!!

Happy summer!!!


Calling all BLUGers, It's family BLUG picnic time!

BLUG members Steven and Laura Bochinski have graciously offered
to host BLUG's annual afternoon family pot-luck (BYOB) picnic.

It's to be held:
Saturday Aug 3rd from 3pm til 6pm at their home,
which has a large covered back porch just in case.

Address is:
1**7 E. Maplewood ave, Bellingham, between
Cornwall & Northwest

Bring friends and family.

See you all there,

Bill

--
Steven Bochinski

Artist * Computer Wizard
http://bsteveb.com in...@stevestech.com
(360) 223 2137 pgp key 0x1C44ECA8

~~ Clarity is the key to my success ~~