NSW Alphanumeric routes

[Paul Mech]

Hi Folks

The alphanumeric stuff is now online at the RMS website.

www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadnumbers

Paul Mech
Sent from my Android phone

[Sam Laybutt]

jizzzzzzzzzzzz

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To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
From: sirmech...@bigpond.com
Subject: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:31:25 +1000

[Sam Laybutt]

---

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
From: sirmech...@bigpond.com
Subject: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:31:25 +1000

[Paul Rands]

I love the fact they've ripped off the old shields from one of our web sites...

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[Sam Laybutt]

"Signs will start to change from early 2013 in Sydney and on major routes.  Signs will be updated progressively across NSW and is expected to be complete by the end of 2013."

Cliffs:

- New England Hwy between Hexham and Belford to be part of A43. I assume this will end at the interchange on the east side of Branxton, where B82 will also end.

- As was suggested on here some time ago, Hunter Expressway to be M15 and A15 to continue east to Newcastle, replacing A46

- A new route has been added - B89 from the F3 via SR128 to Cardiff, then to Belmont via Warners Bay. This was omitted from the earlier scheme.

- Confirmation of Hume Mwy to Berrima, Hume Hwy to the border but M31 the whole way

- There's a map for ACT - apparently Alt-NR23 will not get a route marker - FACEPALM!

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadprojects/projects/alpha_numeric/documents/act_map.pdf

- Also B23 is shown exiting Monaro Hwy, going E along Hindmarsh Drive, then onto Canberra Ave. Surely a mapping error?

- Confirmation of no route number for Putty Road

Criticisms:

- Duplexes are not shown properly on the maps, i.e. it looks like a route ends, has a gap, then starts again. Strangely, though, there is ONE duplex shown properly - i.e. B72/B23 from Cooma southwards

- Northern NSW map shows B91 ending at Woodenbong rather than crossing the border - facepalm. This is a mapping area though as the text clearly says that the routes crossing borders will retain the same number and otherwise be unchanged.

- No connection to B12 in Victoria, despite it now being a state road

- No mention of B400 in NSW at Robinvale

- RMS are NOT liaising with Ozroads as a stakeholder, despite me specifically requesting them to earlier this year. Poor form. 

- A22 & A36 end at Broadway with no connection to any other routes (same as now)

Praise:

- Fairly detailed information giving the public, mapmakers etc. every opportunity 

- B23 staying as is, rather than going to Jindabyne as per previous. They must have listened to Vicroads. I am a little disappointed that the route to the snowfields wasn't given a number though. 

There is a feedback form, so please send in your comments about how stupid certain bits are. If enough people complain, they might add B12, for instance. 

---

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
From: sirmech...@bigpond.com
Subject: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:31:25 +1000

[Sam Laybutt]

I did notice they were rather dodgy looking (as opposed to making one in TrasiCAD with the proper fonts, dimensions etc.)

They look like the ones Brad used on his old site?

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From: paul...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:56:13 +1000
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Leo Giusti]

I notice in the pdfs that Metroad 6 and 9 aren't mentioned amongst other things.

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[Sam Laybutt]

Good pickup, Leo!

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From: ttd...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:57:54 +1000
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Leo Giusti]

Time to complain about those Omissions and finally I can now talk about what I've known privately for a year.

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[Paul Rands]

The shields look like a mix from a couple of sites.

The ACT map is interesting that dogleg for B23 makes no sense. And if you ask me, the ACT numbering looks like it was done as an afterthought. Also surprised RMS are dealing with it rather than TAMS


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[Leo Giusti]

I just asked about the two missing Metroads. Look forward to getting an answer.

[Sam Laybutt]

lol, my Dad just rang me to tell me this news - I guess it must be doing the rounds in the media in Sydney now :)

---

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
From: sirmech...@bigpond.com

Subject: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:31:25 +1000

[mubd1234]

M31 goes all the way up to the M5-M7 interchange according to the map.

[Musa Hodzic]

If they're not having anything in place for MR9 as the MR5 (new M5) will stop at M7/M31 junction, then they should at least revert it back to SR69 and keep the route via Putty Rd. Bastards, they should learn from VicRoads when it comes to routes.

[davis]

* The M7, M2, A28 mess has not been fixed, with A28 apparently encompassing MR7 from the M2 to, umm, M1 Pacific Mwy. Indeed A6 is truncated back to A28 at Penant Hills Road? does not compute.

* Confirms again M1 Princes Mwy on Mt Ousley Road.

* Just like NH23/Alt-NR23 a similarly missed opportunity to route SR111/A43 on the Newcastle IC bypass rather than through town

 

 

On Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:56:41 PM UTC+10, crazyknightsfan wrote:

[Sam Laybutt]

I missed that the first time I flicked through - what the f? Why is A28 going to Wahroonga? This doesn't match what has been done on signs so I think (and hope) it is just a mapping error. 

I'm on the fence about A43/A37 - I think the point of A43 is to lead traffic to inner Newcastle and the port area; through traffic will be on the M1. A37 is more of an arterial route in Newcastle than a proper bypass these days. 

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Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 21:34:00 -0700
From: hornet...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes

* The M7, M2, A28 mess has not been fixed, with A28 apparently encompassing MR7 from the M2 to, umm, M1 Pacific Mwy. Indeed A6 is truncated back to A28 at Penant Hills Road? does not compute.

[Sam Laybutt]

I just read them properly - the PDFs only list the routes where the number will change. 6 and 9 aren't changing. 

lol @ the description of A34 "From the Hume Highway at Liverpool to City, Newtown"

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From: ttd...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:57:54 +1000

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Sam Laybutt]

http://www.news.com.au/national/major-nsw-roads-to-get-name-changes/story-fndo4bst-1226482603872

Major NSW roads to get name-changes

Alicia Wood

The Daily Telegraph

September 27, 20121:48PM

MAJOR NSW roads will have a name-change to standardise the roads system across states.

Roads Minister Duncan Gay announced today that all major motorways will be named under an alpha-numeric system that will cost $20 million to roll out.

All motorways will start with M with a numeral attached, roads of national significance will be named A and roads of state significance will be named B.

From next year, the F3 will be called the M1 Pacific Motorway, the Hume Highway will be renamed A22 and the Bells Line of Road will be called the B59.

Mr Gay said the system will make it easier for tourists to travel interstate.

The opposition has called the re-naming of major roads a “colossal” waste of money.

[Paul Rands]

The opposition were the ones who renamed them in the first place. Talk about lying through your tooth

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[Sam Laybutt]

There's a good Q & A doc provided:

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadprojects/projects/alpha_numeric/documents/qanda_alpha_numeric.pdf

Interesting to see how they have defined 'M' routes:

"‘M’ – meaning motorway standard road of national significance. Motorways are generally major

roadways with a divided carriageway of two or more traffic lanes in each direction, where opposing

traffic is separated by a median strip with controlled entries and exits. An example is the M5."

[Paul Rands]

I suppose it's a very easy to understand description. It would be how I'd explain it to someone who wasn't into this kind of thing.

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--

[Sam Laybutt]

It does beg the question - why are Hume & Federal Highways 'M' routes but not Pacific Highway from Raymond Terrace to Port Macquarie? This is one of those grey areas that forever be the bane of roadgeeks, methinks :p

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From: paul...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:02:56 +1000

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Leo Giusti]

No media release on the RMS sites yet.

[Paul Rands]

It might have something to do with funding and saving face.

The feds funded the majority of the Hume work, despite not all of it being up to traditional grade separated motorway standard. In order to make the work look better than it is, tell everyone it's a motorway. Has worked for Vicroads for years.

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[mubd1234]

The vast majority of comments on the internet are negative, decrying it as a "waste of money" and some are calling it a conspiracy so that the government can introduce tolls on the former freeways (even though the majority of them were freeways in the first place). I suppose that leaves Sydney with two freeways left - the Warringah Freeway and the Gore Hill freeway.

[Sam Laybutt]

But yet they aren't naming it Hume Motorway or Federal Motorway. Something that will hopefully be explained!

---

From: paul...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:11:15 +1000

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Paul Rands]

I was hoping to leave a comment on the news.com.au article with the whinging Labor party tossers. However there's no commenting open at the moment.

This whole project was started when the Labor party was in power anyway

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[Sam Laybutt]

The Labor government refused to give the RTA funding to do it for about 10 years straight. I don't think you can say they supported it in any way. Then again, the NSW Transport Minister in 1997 did sign the document saying they would go to alpha-numerics so I guess Labor supported it back then. 

---

From: paul...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:20:12 +1000

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Sam Laybutt]

SMH article:

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/ms-and-bs-to-make-driving-simple-as-abc-minister-20120927-26n4w.html

Terrorgraph article from the derposition's perspective:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/new-road-signage-waste-of-20m-nsw-labor/story-e6freuz0-1226482643995

Amusing that they chose an Oxford Street sign as a photo, especially when the Minister's surname is 'Gay' (and it's not going to have a route number)

The usual drivel from the derposition:

""The people of NSW want their roads fixed and they want them built, they don't want them simply renamed," acting opposition roads spokeswoman Penny Sharpe told reporters in Sydney.

"Today's announcement is also an announcement about priorities.

"Every school, every hospital, is feeling cuts across this state."

Ms Sharpe dismissed suggestions the tourism industry would benefit from the changes.

"Tourists already seem to get around NSW quite fine on their own," she said.

"Most cars actually have a GPS these days."

i.e. - won't somebody think of the children!!!!11

I did laugh at the comment that tourists already seem to get around NSW quite fine on their own. The comment about GPS is worrying; one hopes we don't turn into a society of blind satnav followers...

[Paul Rands]

I rely on the signs, not Satnav, unless I am looking for a minor street or road. Even then I just look up the map and memorize where I need to turn like you would using a printed map. It's a dying skill it would seem.

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[Leo Giusti]

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/newsevents/downloads/minister_releases/120927-roadnumbers.pdf

The Hon Duncan Gay MLC Minister for Roads and Ports Deputy Leader of the Government Legislative Council MEDIA RELEASE

27 September 2012

A NEW WAY TO GET FROM A TO B TO M

Road signs across New South Wales will start changing from early next year as part of a project to standardise the system across major states.

The alpha-numeric system is currently used in Queensland and Victoria and identifies road corridors in order of their importance.

NSW Roads Minister Duncan Gay said this is a system used widely around the world. The aim is to make it easier for motorists to know if they are travelling on a motorway or a route of national or state significance as they plan their trip.

"This system will include M, A and B roads with a numbering system attached to each. The A roads will be numbered from 1 to 49, while the B routes will be numbered 50 to 99," Mr Gay said.

M - Motorway

A - Route of national significance

B - Route of state significance

"For example, the corridor commonly known as the F3 will be signposted as the M1 Pacific Motorway. The Hume Highway from Liverpool to the city will change to the A22 and the Bells Line of Road will be known as the B59.

"The changes will mean drivers can be confident travelling along the eastern sea board that the road numbers all follow the same pattern, ending the confusion between states."

Road signs in NSW have not been reviewed for 30 years. The introduction of the alpha-numeric system will be gradual, with more than 60 routes across NSW identified for the upgrade at a cost of around $20 million.

A number of important routes outside the Sydney orbital road network will be renamed as motorways and assigned an ‘M’ route marker.

 The Sydney to Newcastle Freeway (commonly known as the ‘F3’) will become part of the

M1 Pacific Motorway.

 The Pacific Highway between the Queensland border and north of Byron Bay will now be part of the

M1 Pacific Motorway.

 The Southern Freeway and Mount Ousley Road from Waterfall to Albion Park Rail will become the

M1 Princes Motorway.

 The M4 will become the

M4 Western Motorway between Lapstone and Concord.

　

 The Hume Highway will be named the

M31 Hume Motorway from the M5 at Prestons to Berrima, after which it will revert to the Hume Highway. The route will however retain the alpha numeric route marker M31.

 The Federal Highway will remain the

Federal Highway, however with the new alpha-numeric route marker M23.

Roads and Maritime Services (RMS) has consulted ahead of this decision with emergency services and Destination NSW. RMS has prepared information on the changes including materials which can be used by tourist operators and mapping agencies.

Information and contact details to provide feedback can be found on RMS internet site.

"Any change takes adjustment but we are confident the new system will mean clearer directions for all motorists," Mr Gay said.

The roll out will start in March 2013 and be completed by December 2013.

Media: Lance Northey 0467 743192

[Brad Torr]

What's the URL for the possible ripoffs? ;)

I agree with Sam & Paul re: the response from the Labor derposition. There are many worthy things to criticise the O'Farrell Liberal government over. The gutting of the TAFE system and public sector sackings come easily to mind. 

But to criticise O'Farrell over a project your party started when it was in government? And journalists repeat your criticisms without even the most basic fact checking?

Does anybody even engage in critical thinking any more?

On 27/09/2012, at 13:57, Sam Laybutt <crazykn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I did notice they were rather dodgy looking (as opposed to making one in TrasiCAD with the proper fonts, dimensions etc.)

They look like the ones Brad used on his old site?

---

From: paul...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:56:13 +1000

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

I love the fact they've ripped off the old shields from one of our web sites...

[Sam Laybutt]

All of these Brad

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadprojects/projects/alpha_numeric/fact_sheets.html

They might even have come from wikipedia which is just LOL

---

From: hume...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:15:40 +1000
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Mitch]

I saw a promo for 9 News tonight they are going to have a story on this (and I presume on the other networks as well) tonight. Worth a look, but will probably be filled with the stuff we've seen in the media released above.

[Brad Torr]

They aren't my shields. Mine are even crappier.

[hubertla...@gmail.com]

Accompanied by the corresponding SMH article:

 

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/ms-and-bs-to-make-driving-simple-as-abc-minister-20120927-26n4w.html

 

 

From: aussie-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:aussie-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Laybutt
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:40 PM
To: aussie highways
Subject: RE: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes

 

jizzzzzzzzzzzz

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To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
From: sirmech...@bigpond.com
Subject: [Aussie Highways] NSW Alphanumeric routes
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:31:25 +1000

Hi Folks

The alphanumeric stuff is now online at the RMS website.

www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadnumbers

--

[Musa Hodzic]

+1 Paul.

On 27 September 2012 16:28, Paul Rands <paul...@gmail.com> wrote:

[davis]

The route shields? Nah they've done 'em in InDesign CS6 (Mac) with the rest of the document. The embedded font is Roadgeek 2005 Series E - so RMS Communications people don't get the real thing either!

 

On Thursday, September 27, 2012 5:18:44 PM UTC+10, crazyknightsfan wrote:

[Paul Rands]

LOL that's gold. I've stopped using Roadgeek on my stuff now. I managed to find a place to grab hold a proper version of FHWA. Would like to get the proper AS fonts though

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[Henry]

Time to update Wikipedia :P

On Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:31:29 PM UTC+10, Mechsta wrote:

Hi Folks

The alphanumeric stuff is now online at the RMS website.

www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadnumbers

[Conrad Zalewski]

I just noticed on the Q&A sheet that they've mixed up State Routes and Metroads, they've said they're 'Blue on White' and 'White and Blue' respectively.

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Conrad...

[mubd1234]

Would most of the non-alphanumeric ready signs be completely replaced as part of the sign conversion program, or just coverplated? (...like in the poor photoshop job I've attached)

[Leo Giusti]

It would depend on the amount of space on the sign, but most likely be replaced.

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[Paul Rands]

I wouldn't say that was a poor job at all :) I had to look twice :)

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<vlcsnap-2012-09-23-20h59m33s28.jpg>

[Sam Laybutt]

Depends on the funding available. Metroads began with lots of coverplates but it didn't have 10 years lead time for preparations. I would think RMS are keen to replace all the signs (as they will be 10+ years old by now).

---

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 06:22:42 -0700
From: mubd...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

[Daniel Knott]

Feeling bored so I thought i'd fire off a question to the RMS feedback email.  I'll post a reply if/when i get it.

I have two comments/questions regarding the proposed route number changes.

- there are numerous locations where two routes join each other on the same road for short distances (i.e. duplexes).  Except for one location (the Monaro Highway B72/B23 south of Cooma), the maps on the website do not correctly show these duplexes (for example, the A15/A37 on Newcastle Road in Newcastle, and the A28/A40 on James Ruse Drive, Parramatta).  Will these be signposted correctly once the system is rolled out?  Not signposting these routes correctly at the key intersections would significantly decrease the effectiveness of the new system and confuse drivers.

- The route number situation along the M7/M2/Pennant Hills Road is confusing.  Currently, someone driving along the main north-south route in western Sydney can simply follow route 7 (albeit currently a combination of M7 and Metroad 7) between the M1 and M5.  In future (according to the maps), this will require following the M7, then M2 and then A28.  This appears to go against the principles guiding the new system of providing simple contiguous routes for key trips, and suggests that the A28 Cumberland Highway is the preferred North-South route through Sydney.  Ironically, this will probably impact those drivers attempting to bypass Sydney who are least familiar with the road network and need the most route guidance.  Is it possible to consider extending the M7 route along the M2 to Pennant Hills Rd, and then continuing north as A7 to the M1.

Thanks for the opportunity to provide feedback, and I look forward to your response.

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[Sam Laybutt]

Hopefully they don't take 6-8 weeks to get back to you, since they are encouraging feedback!

Maybe someone in Government had cold feet about the route 7 issue? These maps, released last week, are the first I have ever heard of route 7 not continuing to Wahroonga - the RTA's Signposting Guidelines shows route 7 to Wahroonga, all the signage we've seen uncovered also shows this. It's too big to be a mapping error, surely, so perhaps when it went to get sign off in the politicians offices they requested that change? 

---

Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 11:15:16 +1000
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: danie...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Leo Giusti]

I know that the A40/A28 duplex seems to have been signe properly as all the SR40 coverplates along the duplex are much larger than a signle alpha sheild.

[Daniel Knott]

Good point Leo.  I just wonder what the official response will be in terms of consistency.  Would be good to have an official line to hold them to later.

[Leo Giusti]

Yeah and will confirm what's under the larger coverplates.

[Daniel Knott]

There is obviously some sensitivity about signposting M7 along the M2, given that many of the signs were butchered shortly after the M7 opened.  maybe Transurban aren't happy about having their road labelled as the M7.

BTW Sam, do you have a copy of the Signposting Guidelines document?  Care to share?

[Daniel Knott]

Just on the ACT side of things, I happened to notice over the weekend that a couple of ID signs along Northbourne Avenue (at Barry Drive and Macarthur Avenue) have had small wooden fluro marker posts hammered into the ground, just behind the existing support poles.  Looks to me like they are about to install new signs - wonder if we will get new alpha ones.  I'll post an update if things change.

[Paul Rands]

Thanks for the heads up Daniel. I noticed heaps of recent ID signs in Canberra over the weekend, most look much better than some of the massive crammed ones that you see there. Though the new AD signs still have too much info on them.

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[Musa Hodzic]

Yeah, there's inconsistency already with the new routes. I also don't like that the M31 starts (or stops) at the M5/M7 junction. I hoped it continued as A31 up to Broadway, thus connecting Mel and Syd centres.

[mubd1234]

Well, the M31 stops at the Ring Road in Melbourne, so it's quite consistent in that it stops at the Ring Road in Sydney.

[crazyknightsfan]

A friend of mine gave some feedback to RMS about the scheme, requesting that B12 be included. Here was their response:

"Thanks for your email and interest in the new system.

Whilst the majority of roads previously marked with National, State and Metroad route markers will be assigned an alpha-numeric route number under the new system, a small number of previously marked routes will not feature an alpha-numeric classification. In most cases this is because the destinations can be easily signposted from each end of the road with the road name and destination - the addition of a route marker would provide no benefit in terms of wayfinding.

However, RMS is collating people's suggestions for additional route numbers and changes to the proposed system. These will be reviewed and potentially rolled out in a second phase of the new system, no earlier than 2014. Your recommendation to extend the B12, which has also been identified by several other people to date, has been recorded and will be reviewed by the project team in the coming months."

Pretty disappointing to hear basically "no" but we can only keep trying. I need to get my feedback in ASAP.

[crazyknightsfan]

Did you get a response yet, Daniel?

[Daniel Knott]

Not yet.  The auto generating response bot must be snowed under working out which one of the two standard responses to send me.

I find the reasoning that some simple routes have not been given numbers because they can be easily signposted a bit frustrating - especially when there are a number of new alpha routes that appear to fit this description B70 and B74 on the central coast and B62 on the north coast just to start. 

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:30 PM, crazyknightsfan <crazykn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Did you get a response yet, Daniel?

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[Sam Laybutt]

teehee

Completely agree with you - I also think of the bits of NR34 and NR37 that have been omitted yet they cannot be navigated by focal points alone. At Walgett there's no mention of Wee Waa or Narrabri - at Narrabri there's no mention of Walgett. At Gilgandra there's no mention of Nevertire, only Warren, likewise no mention of Gilgandra at Nevertire. Even the late SR90 falls into the same category. 

I don't suppose the auto-response bot should be expected to provide reasonably justifiable answers *shrug*

---

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 14:36:14 +1100

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: danie...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Lachlan Sims]

Speaking of B62, I really can't see the point of it - especially considering there will be no signage to Lismore on the upgraded Pacific Highway.

B62, according to RMS, will extend north from Bangalow on the old alignment and end at the Ewingsdale interchange with the focal being just "Bangalow"

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[Sam Laybutt]

Maybe that's why it's needed - because they aren't signposting Lismore at the Ewingsdale interchange? ;p

---

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:26:36 +1100
Subject: RE: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: lachl...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Lachlan Sims]

And could it be a contender for the shortest alpha route?

[Sam Laybutt]

The two east-west routes on the Central Coast would surely get the gong...

---

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:35:07 +1100

Subject: RE: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: lachl...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Daniel Knott]

I take back what i said about the bot :P

--------------------------------------------

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your email.

As you identified, there are a number of instances across the network where short sections of road carry two different route markers. Once the new system is implemented, all road signs will clearly show both route markers. The majority of the shared routes are located in urban areas, so the maps are too congested to be able to clearly present that level of detail.

The M2 and M7 will still be the major north-south route linking the M1 with the M31 under the new system. The M7 finishes at Abbott Road where it becomes the M2 - it is our intention that road signs will be updated to make this clearer. The A28 Cumberland Highway is also a predominant north-south route which links the M1 and M31, and is an important route for those wishing to avoid motorways or tolled roads.

We'll also get this answer posted up for you on the forum site.

Kind regards,
RMS Project Team


Roads and Maritime Services
101 Miller Street North Sydney NSW 2060

[Leo Giusti]

That;s better than the answer I got about the Chopstick signs that I asked internally.

[Sam Laybutt]

Good to get a clear, concise response. Disappointed in the decision to extend A28 though. Sheer lunacy, actually. What a joke that signs will point you to Canberra via the M2 but the route number will continue straight ahead via the Cumberland Hwy. Vice versa at Prestons. herpa derp derp

---

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:12:12 +1100
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: danie...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Jason Kumar]

Doesn't really make sense to me either. It would only make sense once they join up the M1 (F3) to the M2. At least you could say the M2 is the major route linking you to the M1...

but then the M1 would have to continue down the M2 and LCT to join up with the M1 south of the bridge?

--

[T B]

Will the Pacific Highway still keep the M1/A1 shield??

 

From: Jason Kumar

Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 3:25 PM

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

 

Doesn't really make sense to me either. It would only make sense once they join up the M1 (F3) to the M2. At least you could say the M2 is the major route linking you to the M1...

but then the M1 would have to continue down the M2 and LCT to join up with the M1 south of the bridge?

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Sam Laybutt <crazykn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Good to get a clear, concise response. Disappointed in the decision to extend A28 though. Sheer lunacy, actually. What a joke that signs will point you to Canberra via the M2 but the route number will continue straight ahead via the Cumberland Hwy. Vice versa at Prestons. herpa derp derp

---

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:12:12 +1100
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: danie...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

I take back what i said about the bot :P

--------------------------------------------

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your email.

As you identified, there are a number of instances across the network where short sections of road carry two different route markers. Once the new system is implemented, all road signs will clearly show both route markers. The majority of the shared routes are located in urban areas, so the maps are too congested to be able to clearly present that level of detail.

The M2 and M7 will still be the major north-south route linking the M1 with the M31 under the new system. The M7 finishes at Abbott Road where it becomes the M2 - it is our intention that road signs will be updated to make this clearer. The A28 Cumberland Highway is also a predominant north-south route which links the M1 and M31, and is an important route for those wishing to avoid motorways or tolled roads.

We'll also get this answer posted up for you on the forum site.

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[T B]

Really I think A28 should be from Marsden Road to Hume Highway. Hume Highway should be A/B31, and the section between M2 and Marsden Road should be A6 (or whatever is replacing Metroad 6). At least NSW’s new system is not as messy as QLD’s......that’s a nice thought.

 

From: Jason Kumar

Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 3:25 PM

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

Doesn't really make sense to me either. It would only make sense once they join up the M1 (F3) to the M2. At least you could say the M2 is the major route linking you to the M1...

but then the M1 would have to continue down the M2 and LCT to join up with the M1 south of the bridge?

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Sam Laybutt <crazykn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Good to get a clear, concise response. Disappointed in the decision to extend A28 though. Sheer lunacy, actually. What a joke that signs will point you to Canberra via the M2 but the route number will continue straight ahead via the Cumberland Hwy. Vice versa at Prestons. herpa derp derp

---

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:12:12 +1100
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: danie...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

I take back what i said about the bot :P

--------------------------------------------

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your email.

As you identified, there are a number of instances across the network where short sections of road carry two different route markers. Once the new system is implemented, all road signs will clearly show both route markers. The majority of the shared routes are located in urban areas, so the maps are too congested to be able to clearly present that level of detail.

The M2 and M7 will still be the major north-south route linking the M1 with the M31 under the new system. The M7 finishes at Abbott Road where it becomes the M2 - it is our intention that road signs will be updated to make this clearer. The A28 Cumberland Highway is also a predominant north-south route which links the M1 and M31, and is an important route for those wishing to avoid motorways or tolled roads.

We'll also get this answer posted up for you on the forum site.

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[Sam Laybutt]

Interesting little pickup from that - "M7" ends at Abbott Road, where it becomes "M2" - is that a hint that route M2/A2 will exit at Abbott Road?

How do you get through Sydney? Just follow the M7-M2-A28, easy as piss! If you're heading south, turn off the A28 onto the M2 and the M7 to find yourself at the end of the A28 anyway!

---

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:12:12 +1100

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: danie...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Lachlan Sims]

That's the only logic I can see in it - that its allowing for the future extension of the M1 to meet the M2.

But where does that leave the old A1 from Wahroonga to Artarmon?

[T B]

Maybe extend A/B83 from north of Hornsby down the highway once M1 is extended?

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to mailto:aussie-highways%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com.

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[Lachlan Sims]

Fq why bother using the route numbers - they'll make no sense to most people

[Sam Laybutt]

A new number would make more sense, imo. The sections north and south of Wahroonga serve two very different purposes.

As much as I lean towards it being a political decision/facepalm, perhaps internally within RMS there is some optimism about building the F3/M2 link (e.g. unsolicited private proposal is looking good). 

Even still, that is still a long time away so surely the short/medium term benefits of route 7 going all the way to Wahroonga outweigh the hassle of changing Pennant Hills Road to A28 at a later date.

---

From: vortec-...@live.com.au

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:34:19 +1000

[Daniel Knott]

It was nice to get a clear answer .... but they really are just making it up as they go along.

Noting that "the A28 Cumberland Highway is also a predominant north-south route which links the M1 and M31, and is an important route for those wishing to avoid motorways or tolled roads", I look forward to the following signs to be shortly installed southbound on Pennant Hills Road :P

^ A28 CUMBERLAND HWY

Canberra via Alternative Toll Free Route

[Leo Giusti]

what about:

^ TOLL A28 CUMBERLAND HWY

Canberra

with toll struck out.

[Daniel Knott]

Maybe

^ A28 CUMBERLAND HWY FREEWAY

Canberra

Wombeyan Caves

Collector

This would no doubt be useful

[Mitch]

I think it'd be better if we replace Canberra with some other focal to some other country area, or a local tourist attraction in said town.

[Sam Laybutt]

Some interesting bits and pieces from the online forum:

"The old State Route 89 from Gosford to Ourimbah will no longer have a route number under the new system. However, the section of the Pacific Highway from Doyalson to Wyong will be A43." - surely this is an error? A43 should obviously go via Motorway Link. 

- Lots of requests for Putty Road to get a route number

This bloke has plenty of ideas:

"I have a few questions: 1) What number will Putty Road (currently State Route 69) between Windsor and Singleton? I would recommend B66 as a new marker for this section. 2) I would recommend A27 for the Richmond Road/Blacktown Road corridor between the M7 at Dean Park to Bells Line of Road (B59) in Richmond 3) I would recommend A30 from Old Windsor Road (A2) at Kellyville to Pennant Hills Road at West Pennant Hills via Windsor Road, Showground Road, Pennant Street, McMullen Avenue, Old Northern Road and Castle Hill Road. 4) I would recommend A24 from The Northern Road (A9) at Luddenham to the Hume Highway (A22) at Lansvale, following Elizabeth Drive and Cabramatta Road. 5) The section of State Route 122, between the Pacific Highway at Hexham to Nelson Bay Road at Williamtown has no assigned route number. It is the main route from the F3 Freeway to Port Stephens. I would recommend B67 as a new number, replacing B63 from Williamtown to Nelson Bay. 6) The Kamilaroi Highway (National Route 37) between Narrabri and Walgett has no assigned number. An extension of B51 would be helpful to include it in that route. 7) The B71 route number on the Mitchell Highway and B79 on the Silver City Highway respectively, shouldn’t they be A71 and A79 as they connect to those adjoining highways in Queensland and Victoria respectively? Where is the south end of B79? Is it at the Sturt Highway junction or at the Calder Highway bridge at the Murray River? 8) State Route 90 between Orange and Condobolin via Parkes; it does not appear to have an assigned number as part of the new scheme. Would it be assigned B90 as a replacement? 9) The remnant section of National Route 16, from the Murray River bridge near Robinvale along the Murray Valley Highway to the Sturt Highway has no assigned route number as part of the new scheme. I suggest an extension of Victorian route B400 as a replacement. 10) The Mallee Highway/Kyalite-Balranald Road corridor from Tooleybuc to Balranald would be an ideal extension of Victorian route B12 11) Would major arterials in Canberra other than those mentioned, i.e. Gungahlin Drive, Tuggeranong Parkway, Parkes Way, Adelaide Avenue, Cotter Road, Hindmarsh Dr, Majura Road, etc. receive (three digit) route numbers as part of the scheme? 12) An extension of Victorian route B400 from the Murray Valley Highway near Corryong along Tooma Road and the Cabramurra-Kiandra Road to the Snowy Mountains Highway (B72) would be an ideal extension to the route. B92 is also another option. 13) I would recommend B96 running from the junction of the above route near Khancoban along Alpine Way and Kosciuszko Road to the Snowy Mountains Highway (B72) near Cooma 14) I would recommend B98 along Sapphire Coast Drive from the Princes Highway (A1) via Tathra to the Princes Highway (A1) at Pambula. B72 can be extended from Bega to Tathra via Tathra Road"

Maybe a little insight into why certain numbers were chosen:

"However, some routes required a new number and generally in these cases A roads were assigned numbers between 1 and 50 and B roads were assigned numbers from 51 to 99."

So we're going to have a NR16 orphan, are we?

"The B400 will not be extended into NSW at Robinvale as part of the new system being rolled out early next year."

- Lots of request for exit numbers

Some figures to confirm our observations:

"As part of ongoing routine sign maintenance, approximately 95% of Sydney's and 65% of the State's road network has already been signposted 'behind the scenes' using the new alpha-numeric system. The new signs have been 'cover plated' from view, awaiting the roll out of the new system. Given the high percentage of the State network that is now ready to unveil the new signs, RMS has decided to commence the implementation of the new system starting early next year."

[Sam Laybutt]

According to the list of border crossings
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadprojects/projects/alpha_numeric/documents/qanda_alpha_numeric.pdf

B91 and B79 don't cross borders. And A39 crosses at Cobram, not Tocumwal. and B23 and A1 are located in the SW of NSW.

[Alex Csar]

Easy to fix the A28 stupidity: forward your response to Transurban's lawyers and see what they think of RMS promoting a toll-free route with a single number over the hodge-podge than anyone attempting to use the M7 would face.

Cheers,

Alex.

On 9 October 2012 16:12, Daniel Knott <danie...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sam Laybutt]

That's actually not a bad idea...

---

Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 22:28:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
From: alex...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Leo Giusti]

I Agree.

Also why can't B69 go and have MR9 and SR69 all replaced with A9. It's not as though A9 is Metropolitan A9.

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[mubd1234]

I reckon it makes sense for the southern section of SR69 to become A9 (because it links up with the F6) but not the northern section, which is pretty damn long and seems to deserve its own route number..

[Lachlan Sims]

Assuming the idea survives, the foreshadowed outer orbital or ring road may become M9 and may link with M1 at each end.

Ok ... so I'm an optimist.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/aussie-highways/-/EN7OA_pqBDsJ.

[Leo Giusti]

Just a side note, if that happened, what route number would you change A9 to?

[Lachlan Sims]

Would it be obsolete/superseded? Would it deserve a new number?

[Leo Giusti]

Before alphas no. Now not sure since (as an example) the Cumberland Highway will be A28 and Westlink gets M7 but before alphas Cumberland Hwy had no route number.

[Sam Laybutt]

Well it did have Metroad 7.

I have no doubt that Cumberland Highway was caught in the middle of the alpha changeover. Obviously RTA did not think it was worth commissioning another state route or Metroad for Cumberland Highway, only to have it replaced within a few years. In 2005 I do not think the RTA would have thought it would take another 8 years to get the alphas rolled out. You can also imagine the hassle of updating maps, only to then swiftly change them again. The Newcastle Link Road, I think, was in much the same position, although quite why it wasn't given a route number when it opened is beyond any rational thought. Someone navigating by route numbers would follow SR128 or SR111 into Newcastle instead of along the main route because it, bizarrely, was not signed with a number. 

All that said, the M9 is likely to be built on or very close to the Metroad 9 corridor - there's nowhere else to put it. In this case, the old road definitely does not deserve a number under this system. A28 is an important arterial route in its own right, located up to 10km east of the M7, so it's a very different situation. It is not, however, the most important route for visitors looking to pass through Sydney as the RMS seem to suggest!

---

From: ttd...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:47:52 +1100

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Leo Giusti]

I totally agree Sam. You do such a good job of stating facts.

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[Sam Laybutt]

aww shucks - I try :)

---

From: ttd...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:14:38 +1100

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Leo Giusti]

or should I say putting things in a clear and simple format.

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[T B]

Very philosophical he is.

 

From: Leo Giusti

Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 1:21 PM

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

 

or should I say putting things in a clear and simple format.

On 10 October 2012 14:19, Sam Laybutt <crazykn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

aww shucks - I try :)

---

From: ttd...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:14:38 +1100

Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

I totally agree Sam. You do such a good job of stating facts.

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[Sam Laybutt]

lol

---

From: vortec-...@live.com.au

To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:45:21 +1000

[mubd1234]

I'd be quite interested to see what the 2014 "stage two" of the rollout they're mentioning on the online forum entails.

On Thursday, September 27, 2012 1:31:29 PM UTC+10, Mechsta wrote:

Hi Folks

The alphanumeric stuff is now online at the RMS website.

www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadnumbers

Paul Mech
Sent from my Android phone

[Sam Laybutt]

I interpreted it more along the lines of "we won't entertain any of your common sense suggestions/facepalm fixes until a point in the future just far enough away that you will have forgotten about it/been distracted by something else too much to care so stop bothering us"

---

Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:14:07 -0700
From: mubd...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

[mubd1234]

Something that's just occurred to me - in the video on the website, there's an example of navigating from the Airport to North Sydney. They're saying that people should use the Harbour Tunnel, even though signs say to use the elevated section of the Cahill Expressway just before the tunnel portal. After the Harbour Tunnel, the narrator says "Bradfield Highway", which doesn't make any sense if you're using the tunnel.

[Sam Laybutt]

I think the placement of Cahill Expressway is dodgy on the map - you do use Cahill if travelling between the ED and SHT. Bradfield Highway is indeed a facepalm.

---

Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:35:58 -0700

From: mubd...@gmail.com
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Aussie Highways] Re: NSW Alphanumeric routes

[crazyknightsfan]

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadprojects/projects/alpha_numeric/documents/hunter_newcastle.pdf

Just noticed another mapping error. B89 is shown on the main Hunter map but not the Newcastle inset - lol. 

[Conrad Zalewski]

During my drive on Saturday, I saw the attached sign as I entered Cumberland Hwy from Hume Hwy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't these types of signs, at the start of routes, usually show the last focal point before the end of the route? Therefore, wouldn't A28 end at A6 at Carlingford?

Sorry about the quality, it's a screenshot from my dash cam.

Old Sign: http://goo.gl/maps/MUCpz

Regards,

Conrad

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:49 AM, crazyknightsfan <crazykn...@hotmail.com> wrote:

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadprojects/projects/alpha_numeric/documents/hunter_newcastle.pdf

Just noticed another mapping error. B89 is shown on the main Hunter map but not the Newcastle inset - lol. 

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Conrad...