Re: Avare

[Apps4av Support]

Hi Craig

Thanks for asking. Ccing the forum for comments.

I have not needed an HSI yet, but I think it could be useful. Does this somehow extend the magenta line by giving the info in an HSI instrument style?

Zubair

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 8:41 PM, cafordahl <cafo...@msn.com> wrote:

Do you have any plans for adding an HSI display?
Craig

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[John Wiley]

> Do you have any plans for adding an HSI display?

I wonder if that would be a big can of worms, due to the wide variety of
devices running Avare. There's the Apps4Av free open source companion
app Gyro (In-Flight Instruments on gPlay:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ds.gyro ). Maybe that
would meet your needs, since it's simple to task switch between that and
Avare?

I haven't tried it on my Nexus 7 or GS4, but on the older Droid X it was
pretty variable in accuracy. Any handheld device is going to vary
depending on cockpit placement, so unless you've somehow affixed it to
the aircraft in a known and tested orientation it's going to produce
variable results. If you created a fixed mount that would be identical
on every flight, have a device with good internal sensors, and have
tested it with unusual attitudes in VMC, it could be helpful. But as a
VFR pilot, I'd prefer to glance at the panel HSI and hope it didn't fail
the moment I inadvertently went IMC. Flying IFR it would be better than
nothing until you could exit IMC, especially if you have enough time to
switch before the panel unit completely dies.

Since no handheld app will ever be legal in IMC, my own preference is to
keep Avare small and simple. I also hope that all the scarce coding
time of the developer team remains focused on the Avare and I/O apps.
That said, it would be cool if some new coder on the team wanted to
better integrate the apps so that HSI would be an option or even a tab
screen in Avare.

I'm curious what if anything comes up for others. Would most people
like to see an HSI in Avare, or are you ok with using the external Gyro app?

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 9:13 PM, John Wiley <joh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Do you have any plans for adding an HSI display?
>
> I wonder if that would be a big can of worms, due to the wide variety of
> devices running Avare. There's the Apps4Av free open source companion app
> Gyro (In-Flight Instruments on gPlay:
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ds.gyro ). Maybe that
> would meet your needs, since it's simple to task switch between that and
> Avare?

How could a Gyro app display an HSI? An HSI requires knowledge of
distance from the desired track.

I'd think that an HSI that uses track would be perfectly adequate.
That's how just about every GPS HSI works anyway. Also, I'm not 100%
convinced that Avare's heading is actually showing track and not
heading - though on many devices the reported heading is really a
track. I need to do some testing to confirm that, however...

Rich

[Ron Walker]

I've been noodling the idea of an HSI for a bit now ... and messed with some prototype code. I always come back to how this would improve the current product. The data that is available in the HSI display is already available on the current avare product (albeit in different form) - save for the localizer/glideslope info which we cannot add anyway. An advantage is that it displays the information consistently regardless of the zoom factor, but is that worth the invested effort ? One bit of data that is missing is the TO/FROM indicator if our destination is set to a VOR. My older garmin GPS has an HSI display page, which I rarely even used. From my understanding, what you get from an HSI is the direction you are tracking, the direction you SHOULD be tracking and how far off course you are. Without the radio navaids, what more is there to show ?

[Zubair Khan]

Where will we put the HSI in the UI? Its kinds of big, and could be its own app.

On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Ron Walker <n52...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been noodling the idea of an HSI for a bit now ... and messed with some prototype code. I always come back to how this would improve the current product. The data that is available in the HSI display is already available on the current avare product (albeit in different form) - save for the localizer/glideslope info which we cannot add anyway. An advantage is that it displays the information consistently regardless of the zoom factor, but is that worth the invested effort ? One bit of data that is missing is the TO/FROM indicator if our destination is set to a VOR. My older garmin GPS has an HSI display page, which I rarely even used. From my understanding, what you get from an HSI is the direction you are tracking, the direction you SHOULD be tracking and how far off course you are. Without the radio navaids, what more is there to show ?

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Zubair Khan
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Sudbury, MA 01776

[Ron Walker]

I agree ... to overlay it on the chart screen eats a ton of real estate
without providing any new data/info. Having its own instrument page
makes more sense - maybe chain it into the "GPS" button at the bottom
right, so it cycles CHART/GPS/HSI/etc.

[Rich Freeman]

Certainly doesn't provide any new info, though arguably it is more
digestible. To look at the map and tell if you're left/right of track
and how far you're steering to correct involves looking at the
aircraft icon and trying to judge its angle. An HSI shows the
relationship in a manner that is probably a bit more intuitive if your
main goal is to just follow a course.

Also, I wouldn't make it look any different if the next waypoint is a
VOR/FIX/whatever. The concept behind From/To is really no different
for radio navaids. Will following the course take you away from the
station, or towards it? Of course, if you're on a plan you shouldn't
really get From indications anyway as you should be advancing to the
next waypoint.

Rich

[John Wiley]

Being a VFR pilot I've only flown a few IFR practice approaches with a
glideslope CDI during training and BFRs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_deviation_indicator

I've never actually flown in an aircraft with HSI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_situation_indicator

As the IFR folks here already figured out, I mistakenly thought we were
talking about the notion of adding an AI to Avare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator

> "GPS" button at the bottom right, so it cycles CHART/GPS/HSI/etc.

I very much like the principles of preserving Map screen space, keeping
the core Avare app small, and minimizing the potential for introducing
bugs. My guess is that Avare is used mostly for VFR flight, and as a
backup device for IFR. So of course my suggestion is to consider only
adding HSI as an add-on option. Adding it to the GPS screen could work
well especially if the "target" sat visualization were reduced in
relative size, presuming pilots wouldn't need to reference an approach
plate or chart once flying the HSI. Otherwise, maybe it could be added
to the GPS tab as an IFR button that would enable toggling between Map &
the modified GPS screens with a tap?

In terms of new features in the GPS screen, I'd love to see any
available WAAS & RAIM data plus any ADS-B status. To me, such features
would be more useful to a broader spectrum of Avare users. But maybe
Avare is used for primary or backup IFR often? Especially for simulators?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 4:12 PM, John Wiley <joh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My
> guess is that Avare is used mostly for VFR flight, and as a backup device
> for IFR. So of course my suggestion is to consider only adding HSI as an
> add-on option. Adding it to the GPS screen could work well especially if
> the "target" sat visualization were reduced in relative size, presuming
> pilots wouldn't need to reference an approach plate or chart once flying the
> HSI.

I can't speak for anybody else, but if you could only look at either
the HSI or the map but not both at once, I doubt I'd ever look at the
HSI. To me it only makes sense as an overlay/etc.

I was thinking about this a bit more. A chart with track-up and an
aircraft icon is a good chunk of what makes an HSI already (shows
distance left/right of track), especially with the velocity vector
shown. The problem with that is that it makes charts hard to read
until we get vector charts (wishful thinking, I know).

What is really needed from an HSI is to show aircraft bearing/position
relative to track. Though it wouldn't be traditional, that could
probably be illustrated with just a single thin line on the screen
(which of course could be optional) - just draw it right over the
chart since it wouldn't really obscure much. Imagine the track is a
line running up the middle of the screen (regardless of whether you
are in track-up or north-up mode). On the bottom of the screen pick a
point to the left or right of center based on whether the aircraft is
left/right of the track. Then draw a line up from there at the
relative angle to the course (so if heading left relative to the
track, it points left, heading right it points right, heading parallel
to track it points up). Draw a small arrow at the top/bottom to
indicate from/to (might just be a thin angled line to avoid obscuring
too much chart). So, ideally the line is just an arrow pointing up in
the middle of the screen. If it is to either side you want to steer
to point the arrow so that it will intercept the middle and then watch
it drift towards the middle.

That to me seems very intuitive for steering. It would use very
little screen real-estate and could be referenced at a glance. We
need to think a little about the behavior when you're headed away from
the track, but it might be a good compromise, and probably really easy
to design since it is just a single line with simple math behind it.
The scale could be logarithmic so that you'd always have some
indication of position relative to course (1" from center might be a
mile, 2" might be 5 miles, 3" might be 20 miles, the screen edge might
be 100 miles).

I think that would be more useful than a pretty-looking HSI that goes
on its own screen so that you can't see anything else while using it.

Rich

[Zubair Khan]

I agree. Something similar to the CDI in the Garmin GPS.

[Ron Walker]

I'm prototyping something like that right now -- when I get it close, I'll post up a screen shot for some feedback.

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Ron Walker <n52...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A course deviation indicator based upon the current destination, current
> position within += 1/4 mile of course line:
>
> img style="" src="data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQ...

You might want to post a link to the images or attach them as
traditional attachments to an otherwise plain-text message. I had no
idea you could even embed base64 in an html tag, but I've yet to find
a mail reader that will actually decode it.

This is what your message looked like on a typical MUA:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/apps4av-forum/3nMC2Kyquos/AG05PYeoukoJ

Rich

Rich

[Ron Walker]

Ya - it looked good when composing .... not so good after hitting the POST button

[Ron Walker]

https://picasaweb.google.com/109854784657274835863/CDIForAvare?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPrx-pr-iLbIJg&feat=directlink

Posted the images to a picasa album.

[John Wiley]

> Posted the images to a picasa album.

Thanks, Ron. Pretty fancy feature. :)

I'll bet some users will love it. Nice that it's below (behind) the
position indicator so it won't interfere with the map.

I'd have thought colors would be something like Green = on track, Gray =
slightly off, Red = lost. Of course, your method would work well flying
Avare with peripheral vision.

One tweak I'd add would be making the indicator arrow more noticeable
somehow (bigger?). I didn't even notice it at first, expecting one of
the bars to be used as an indicator. Your method allows greater
resolution accuracy, but on a small screen it could be difficult to see
at a glance.

My own preference will be to fly simply using "Brg/Heading" or the
dashed lines, but some users will love it. Plus it will look really
cool on a gPlay screen capture. :)

[Zubair Khan]

Re colors: Thats what I thought but I think Ron has a better idea. The color is same as your nav lights color.

BTW its usefulness will increase when we add the glide slope on it.

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[John Wiley]

> color is same as your nav lights color.

Yeh, I thought that was an interesting idea too. Maybe a
user-selectable Option?

> usefulness will increase when we add the glide slope on it.

Agreed! Cool feature! :)

[Robert Hughes]

The examples provided by Ron Walker in the Picasa samples are a bit misleading. Each of these three cases would result in a centered Course Deviation Indication since they all depict the airplane as being located squarely on the Course Line.  A  CDI simply displays the distance and direction of separation between the airplane and the desired Course Line, and has nothing to do with which way the airplane is pointed/ tracking at the moment.

Regards, Bob Hughes

[Ron Walker]

Agreed - these were just mockups to show the position and composition of
the display. The comment under picture 2 says to IGNORE the plane and
purple course line indicators.

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