A Rebazar Tarzs Experience

[Etznab]

HOW ABOUT THIS FOR AN EXPERIENCE WITH REBAZAR TARZS???????????????????????

Concerning Paul Twitchell's book, The Key to Eckankar and Rebazar Tarzs.

The Key to Eckankar is about 43 pages of text. Similarities (near or exact) between text for The Key to Eckankar and writings of Neville Goddard appear on, or about pp. 5-6; the writings of Talbot Mundy, p. 6; Neville Goddard pp. 6-7; Thomas Troward, pp. 8-9; Talbot Mundy, p. 14; Neville Goddard, p. 17; Joel Goldsmith, p. 19; Talbot Mundy, pp. 23-25, 27; Scientology Dynamics, p. 27; Neville Goddard, p. 28; Scientology Axioms, p. 37; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 40-42.

List of the books and links:

The Power of Awareness, Neville Goddard (1952)

http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy (1940)

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Lectures on Mental Science, Thomas Troward (1909)

http://www.archive.org/stream/edinburghlecture00trow#page/n7/mode/2up

Scientology, Hubbard (1950s?)

http://learn.scientology.org/wis4_12.htm

Practicing the Presence, Joel S. Goldsmith (1958)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

The Key to Eckankar ("1968")

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

Examples:

TKTE - p. 19:

"We only have to prove this in one direction and we shall have it proved in every direction. The whole secret lies in the word heart, or what we call consciousness. An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is All is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth fully realized via ECKANKAR is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so we will see all of life through that understanding."

PTP (Practicing The Presence) - Joel Goldsmith (2nd paragraph, p. 19)

The whole secret lies in the word "consciousness". An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is all is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth realized is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so it is unto us.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

TKTE - p. 40

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."

PTP - p. 20

Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way.

TKTE - p. 40

"The second step cannot be taken unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years we spend in reading truth, attending services, lectures, and classes are fruitful in leading us to that point where inspiration flows from within our own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth."

PTP - p. 21

The second step, which leads to a state of consciousness where we are receptive and responsive to the still small voice, cannot be taken, however, unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years that a person has spent in reading truth, hearing truth, thinking truth, attending church services, lectures, or classes are fruitful in leading him to that point where inspiration flows from within his own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth.

TKTE - p. 40

"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away.
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it.

PTP - p. 21

Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn that the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciouness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it.

[Keep in mind Joel S. Goldsmith's book was called Practicing The Presence and that another phrase he used (and a book by that same name) was called The Infinite Way.]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/SjghdLsP_t8J

... continuing from earlier post

TKTE - p. 41

"It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be the branch that withers away, unless we live so completely in the Word and let this Word live in us so that the Very Spirit dwells in us-the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of It, but most of us are as unaware of It as we are of the blood coursing through our veins. God is with us, God's presence fills all space, the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many have felt that presence? It is talked about, prayed for, theorized over, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced! It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence, which is necessary."

PTP - pp. 21-22

It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be a branch that withereth, until we so abide in the Word and let this Word abide in us that the very Spirit of God. There is a Spirit in man. There actually is a Spirit - the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of it, but most of us are as unaware of it as we are of the blood coursing through our bodies. God is with us. God's presence fills all space; the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many people have felt that Presence? It is talked about, prayed about, theorized about, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced. It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence which is necessary.

TKTE - p. 41

"In most religious teachings, we are told that God is everywhere, but this is not true in the sense of prevalence. If the Spirit of God were everywhere, all persons would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. The Spirit of God is present only where It is Realized. This is why we are all trying to become channels for Spirit."

PTP - p. 22

In most religious teachings, we are told that the Spirit God is everywhere, but that is not true. If the Spirit of the Lord were everywhere, everybody would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. No. the Spirit of the Lord is present only where it is realized.

TKTE - p. 41

"Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then as far as we are concerned, we do not have the realization of this Spirit. It is like electricity (which is everywhere, just as the Spirit of God is), but electricity is of little use or value to anyone unless it is connected in some way for a particular use. So it is with the Spirit of God. It is everywhere in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized."

PTP - p. 22-23

Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then, as far as we are concerned, we do not have this Spirit. Again, it is a case of rolling up the window shades, or it is like saying that electricity is everywhere. That is true. Electricity is everywhere just as the Spirit of God is everywhere. Electricity, however, will be of no value to us, unless it is connected in some way for our particular use. So it is with this Spirit of God. It is everywhere, in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized.

TKTE - pp. 41-42

"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time. This does not mean he is going to neglect his human duties and activities. It means that he is going to train himself to have some area in his consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look at the forms of nature as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and live within the Word."

PTP - p. 23

The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. That does not mean that we neglect our human duties and activities; it means that we train himself to have some area of consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look out at forms of nature such as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and to abide in the Word.

TKTE - p. 42

"So it is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in all scriptures, but mainly in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, the Way of the Eternal."

PTP - pp. 23-24

It is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle, and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in scripture: Christian, Hebrew, and Oriental. Some of them are not found in any written form, but nevertheless, they are known to all the mystics of the world. The further we go in this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem, we do not have to think consciously of any of them.

TKTE - p. 41

"The deeper we go into this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding, and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem we do not have to consciously think of them.
"Someday I will give these principles to you for publication. An understanding of the principles of spiritual living - that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth - is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship is to God. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble in a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth so that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being."

PTP - p. 25

An understanding of the principles of spiritual living, that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth, is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship to God and our fellowman is. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble into a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth in order that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and on another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of that which is. A spiritual life cannot be built without an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being.

TKTE - p. 42

"It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let God operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night until the actual awareness comes gradually. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be living in the world and shall gather in the harvest of Souls."

PTP - p. 26

It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let these principles operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night, until gradually the actual awareness comes. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be abiding in the Word and shall bear fruit richly. [... .]

***

OK that's about the best I can do right now for the similarities between Twitchell and Goldsmith that I've found so far. I have them all in a different format, and where the paragraphs are not broken up, that might be possible to share in the future. I also have examples from the other authors listed on this thread. Bear in mind I am still researching Paul Twitchell's book The Key to Eckankar and may not have found all similarities (near and exact) to date when the book (or what Rebazar Tarzs reportedly said) is compared with other authors and their books. Most of them copyrighted.

There is also Harold Klemp's Introduction for the 2003 version of TKTE that I want to append to this thread. Along with what he had to say about Rebazar Tarzs.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/v_i6BDdTBjkJ

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."

Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."

Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith

[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/4T8Ss0btEFEJ

Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp both made remarks about Rebazar Tarzs. Paul, reportedly taking down Rebazar's dictation and Harold Klemp further remarking about

(1) the "conversation" "His [Rebazar Tarzs'] conversation with Paul ..."]

and

(2) the "dialogue" ["... the dialogue between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul ... ."]

and Harold also (in some respects)

(3) attempting to explain what Rebazar Tarzs meant.

On this newsgroup (and in so many words) it was suggested, even stated, that plagiarisms do not discount the verity of Eck Masters. Iow, that plagiarisms (by the founder of Eckankar, that were not exactly words from Eck Masters, but rather words copied from library books and credited to certain Eck Masters, etc.) have as if nothing to do with whether Eck Masters are real, or not. It almost looks to me as if some people would rather like to sweep the study and illustration for a "growing list" of plagiarisms out of the way and off of this newsgroup. Although this action is not entirely certain, what is certain are the number of personal "attacks" and ridicule, etc. of those choosing to bring up and maintain a discussion and deeper study of this topic.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/vlRM7X8Eke8J

Quoting from FAQ section of official Eckankar website:

"Is Eckankar a cult?

"No.

"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"

http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult

*********

Comments:

The word "beliefs" has an interesting context here.

"It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others ..."

Question;

"What about belief in Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck Masters? Harold Klemp, the leader of Eckankar (See; The Key to Eckankar) appears to "speak for" Rebazar Tarzs. Is this the truth? Or is this Harold's belief?

Observations:

In his Introduction for Fourth Printing (1985) of The Key to Eckankar, Harold Klemp referenced Rebazar Tarzs. Harold wrote: [...] Rebazar Tarzs says that the individual first has to get "the correct letter of truth" before he can live in the spirit of truth. He tells how this is done. [... .]

(See full Introduction for more insights and context.)
http://tinyurl.com/o2ozxuo

The Key to Eckankar section about "correct letter of truth" is one that very closely resembles the writings in Joel S. Goldsmith's book, Practicing the Presence of God - 1958 Iow, the words "correct letter of truth" appeared years before The Key to Eckankar book came out in 1968.

Some sample quotes (from a much larger section of correspondences covering over a dozen paragraphs in consecutive order) illustrating similarity between the writings of Joel S. Goldsmith and the words of Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs.

***

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."

Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."

Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith

[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]

***

"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'

"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away."

Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell

Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. [...]

Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith

***

"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it."

Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell

[...] How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it."

Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith

[Note: All illustrations here should be checked for typos.]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/218780789/82916572-Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith-1

*********

The official Eckankar website has a link about Rebazar Tarzs.

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html

This link is response to a frequently asked question.

Begin quote ...

Do the ECK Masters really exist?

The ECK Masters are real.

People from all over the world and from all walks of life have had personal experiences with the ECK Masters years before Paul Twitchell brought them to the public eye.

Many people who have never heard of Eckankar recognize ECK Masters from their dreams and other encounters.

Here on the Eckankar Web site, you can read some of these stories and see pictures of some of these ECK Masters.

Better yet, meet them for yourself. That's the real proof for any spiritual seeker.

The book Those Wonderful ECK Masters (link opens in a new window) gives spiritual exercises to help you receive personal guidance from an ECK Master.

... end quote.

http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#eckmasters

More comments:

From at least the 1970s - over 40 years ago - Eckankar has received feedback about examples of dubious biographical information surrounding what so many "Eck Masters" reportedly said, or wrote; along with a growing number of plagiarism examples and/or verbatim matches between the Eckankar writings and the writings of other gurus and New Age authors, etc.
HOWEVER, when historical evidence of Eckankar masters is presented in story form, or according to what the Eckankar founder wrote, WHERE are all the examples of paraphrase and plagiarism showing convincing evidence for the very real prospect that Paul Twitchell, or somebody, took from the writings of other authors and used them like a literary device to animate a historical record of Eckankar masters?
It appears to me that a propaganda campaign has been carried forward for a good number of years in which stories that support the belief of "real" Eck masters are promoted, whereas stories and black and white evidence to the contrary is NOT so much promoted.

*********

Quoting from the Eckankar website again:

"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"

http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AEhzOYFzWck/dsFcIwx7KKUJ

More reference links:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ae1tfX28RMk/utNnWx_GSqoJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/C6u9t1O-MpE/OAkXUTY7ns4J

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OB416Fe7BmA/Ja3co0ofzbgJ

[Etznab]

So many have read and report having met R.T.

Fife compares him to St. Paul in the Bible.

[fife]

Calm down. Are ECK Masters saints? Are ECK Masters in Eckankar the same as saints in other religions?

[Etznab]

Let me ask you for the third time then.

[Etznab]

On the other thread you wrote:

"Your post which starts this part of this thread is about Eckankar, Vardankar, and Nu Wave all recognizing Rebazar Tarzs. My point is that it isn't unusual for a saint to be recognized as a saint by many or all sects of a religion and sometimes as a saint by more than one religion."

Read it in context to the posts before and after.

I said that St. Paul is probably not a good comparison for R.T.

[fife]

No. Let me ask you this question: do you think Eckankar is more real than imaginary or do you think Eckankar is more imaginary than real?

[fife]

Etznab. I know what you said and I recognize that you're confused but I can't do anything about your confusion.

[Etznab]

You can't answer the questions, but instead want to detract away from them.

I can see this clear as day. You want your problem to become my problem, but it is your problem. You own it.

Fife. You compared R.T. to St. Paul and I responded with some questions to clarify your meaning.

[fife]

Oh, my. You certainly enjoy being pragmatical and difficult. More than anything else? More than any point you or anyone else is making?

[Etznab]

St. Paul is not a good comparison for R.T. Not in my opinion.

How bout you?

[fife]

Not bad if you're simply making a point about a saint in a religion. Then of course there's the "bringing it out". "Bringing out Eckankar" and "bringing out" Christianity.

[Tisra Til]

Yeah. R.T. Is a one-off. Can’t be compared to anyone. Not before. Nothing since. Sooooooo.... what do we do now?

Strike up the band, and sing a little ditty! 🤓

[fife]

Strike up the band for Popeye the sailor cash in his hands - right off a whaler.

Stand in a row, hop! Don't let him go, hop! He's a cinch but every inch a sailor!

[fife]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3p5if

Alas, my childhood. Watching old cartoons on tv.

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 3:55:56 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Not bad if you're simply making a point about a saint in a religion. Then of course there's the "bringing it out". "Bringing out Eckankar" and "bringing out" Christianity.

What is that supposed to mean?

St. Paul is not a good comparison for Rebazar Tarzs.

[fife]

Okay. Okay. He's not.

Your original post was about Rebazar Tarzs claimed by three paths. Then something about the plain truth way, way more important than plagiarism. What did you mean? Or after all this does it make any difference now?

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:41:48 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Okay. Okay. He's not.
>
> Your original post was about Rebazar Tarzs claimed by three paths. Then something about the plain truth way, way more important than plagiarism. What did you mean? Or after all this does it make any difference now?

It pays to persist with questions.

Reminds me of how many questions to Doug Marman before he finally admitted that yes, sometimes he can answer yes or no questions.

As for Fife's question to me. You wrote that my original post was about Rebazar Tarzs claimed by three paths. Then something about the plain truth way, way more important than plagiarism. And you asked what did I mean?

I'd like to look at that original post to which you referred. Is it the original post on this thread? If not then your post is a little confusing to me.

Rebazar Tarzs claimed by three paths? The "plain truth" more important than plagiarism? It looks clear enough to understand as is, but if you want to know what I meant then it would help if I had a link to the thread, or posts to which you refer.

Or would you rather that in answer to your question I just say something like: It's not my style. Never going to happen. :)?

[fife]

😊 Yeah. You could say that.
It must be on another thread. I'll try to find it. I think we were posting on three or four threads at the same time that day. But right now I'm a little tired so it may be a while. It's been a long day.

[fife]

Okay. Around Oct. 30
Ahh. There's one in the topic Rhythm of Being. Oct. 28. Seventh post in the thread. I think there's one where you say the same thing more specifically but I can't find it offhand. You know, this would be easier if you remembered what you'd written. If I didn't have to remember for both of us and try to find a way back to it for you. 😉

[wernertrp]

Am Montag, 11. November 2019 06:07:27 UTC+1 schrieb fife:
> Okay. Around Oct. 30
> Ahh. There's one in the topic Rhythm of Being. Oct. 28. Seventh post in the thread. I think there's one where you say the same thing more specifically but I can't find it offhand. You know, this would be easier if you remembered what you'd written. If I didn't have to remember for both of us and try to find a way back to it for you. 😉

I had a low-level dream experience with Eva-Maria Schoen last week.
Only a very very short dream sequence 1-3 seconds. I saw her Picture.
But she had not this long Blonde hairs. Her hair have been short-cut and wuschel wuschel not well styled, like you try do make a barber who do hands into her hairs and make wuschel wuschel.

[wernertrp]

I found the translation: mop of curly hair.

[Etznab]

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 11:07:27 PM UTC-6, fife wrote:
> Okay. Around Oct. 30
> Ahh. There's one in the topic Rhythm of Being. Oct. 28. Seventh post in the thread. I think there's one where you say the same thing more specifically but I can't find it offhand. You know, this would be easier if you remembered what you'd written. If I didn't have to remember for both of us and try to find a way back to it for you. 😉

When I get time I can search for it.

BTW, Fife, What's wrong with a desktop? laptop? or some other device that you could post links from? or associate your responses with specific posts in a thread? It seems that you ONLY use a phone.

Oh. Wait. Too many questions. Are we aloud to ask questions? On no. Another question! Hope I didn't pass my quota.

[Etznab]

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 11:07:27 PM UTC-6, fife wrote:

> Okay. Around Oct. 30
> Ahh. There's one in the topic Rhythm of Being. Oct. 28. Seventh post in the thread. I think there's one where you say the same thing more specifically but I can't find it offhand. You know, this would be easier if you remembered what you'd written. If I didn't have to remember for both of us and try to find a way back to it for you. 😉

And if you used something besides a phone, it would allow you to do searches much easier. Maybe a public computer is somewhere that you could use. The library, or a study center.

[fife]

Oct 28Etznab
So what is the lesson for Eckankar about Vardankar and the NuWave? What is the lesson for Eckankar about another and another and another Rebazar Tarzs? And another and another and another master?

How about tell the plain truth once and for all? A truth that is way, way, way, way, way more than plagiarism?

Just for you. 😊

[fife]

I see a picture of Rebazar Tarzs. I hear people talk about Rebazar Tarzs. More than three spiritual paths now already have one. I read sentences, paragraphs and chapters full of words in quotes said to come from Rebazar Tarzs. I've got Rebazar Tarzs on the brain and even see a Rebazar Tarzs in my dreams. Is this Rebazar Tarzs real? Or is this Rebazar Tarzs an unproven theory?

And this on Nov. 8 from Make Brlieve Religion. 😄

[fife]

Don't get upset. This is just for fun.

Or you could just remember what you post. Or look it up yourself if you want to reference it. Not ask me to do both then criticize the way I do it for you. That's all a bit rich isn't it?

😉

[Etznab]

It seems that the problem is with you, in that you don't understand my meaning. Did I not already mention the word karma?

How about the prospect of making things up?

[fife]

Karma? What the neck do you mean? I guess only you know what you "mean". All I can work with is what you put in print. I (really) can't read your mind. And btw those two clips were straight cut and paste from the threads they're in.

https://giphy.com/gifs/sailor-moon-EALdarQtRPFnO

[fife]

Etznab:
Are you just grumpy ALL the time?

[fife]

And btw why don't I use a lap top or desk top? What difference does it make if I use a kazoo with an antenna on it? Just work with it. It's not that hard.

Also, why would I want to bust my ass to be a perfect little Etznab clone doing everything perfectly the way you do? Are you alright?

[Etznab]

What don't you understand?

[Etznab]

When there is more time I might go into depth about the multiple Tarzs' vs. the plain truth.

[fife]

It was days ago. No need to bring it up again or try to figure out how a discussion about Rebazar Tarzs and St. Paul got to this. It really doesn't matter.

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:41:48 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:

> Okay. Okay. He's not.
>
> Your original post was about Rebazar Tarzs claimed by three paths. Then something about the plain truth way, way more important than plagiarism. What did you mean? Or after all this does it make any difference now?

BTW, Fife, in all of your 70 plus-year-old glory, notice how long it took you to answer a simple question! After spinning and spinning you finally (just like Doug Marman) came around to answering a simple question. Good job.

[fife]

Good job.

Thank you.
My mother thanks you, my father thanks you, and I thank you.

(George M. Cohan
1878-1942)

[Etznab]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 7:00:37 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:
> HOW ABOUT THIS FOR AN EXPERIENCE WITH REBAZAR TARZS???????????????????????
>
> Concerning Paul Twitchell's book, The Key to Eckankar and Rebazar Tarzs.
>
> The Key to Eckankar is about 43 pages of text. Similarities (near or exact) between text for The Key to Eckankar and writings of Neville Goddard appear on, or about pp. 5-6; the writings of Talbot Mundy, p. 6; Neville Goddard pp. 6-7; Thomas Troward, pp. 8-9; Talbot Mundy, p. 14; Neville Goddard, p. 17; Joel Goldsmith, p. 19; Talbot Mundy, pp. 23-25, 27; Scientology Dynamics, p. 27; Neville Goddard, p. 28; Scientology Axioms, p. 37; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 40-42.
>
> List of the books and links:
>
> The Power of Awareness, Neville Goddard (1952)
>
> http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf
>
> Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy (1940)
>
> http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
>
> Lectures on Mental Science, Thomas Troward (1909)
>
> http://www.archive.org/stream/edinburghlecture00trow#page/n7/mode/2up
>
> Scientology, Hubbard (1950s?)
>
> http://learn.scientology.org/wis4_12.htm
>
> Practicing the Presence, Joel S. Goldsmith (1958)
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
>
> The Key to Eckankar ("1968")
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
>
> Examples:
>
> TKTE - p. 19:
>
> "We only have to prove this in one direction and we shall have it proved in every direction. The whole secret lies in the word heart, or what we call consciousness. An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is All is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth fully realized via ECKANKAR is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so we will see all of life through that understanding."
>
> PTP (Practicing The Presence) - Joel Goldsmith (2nd paragraph, p. 19)
>
> The whole secret lies in the word "consciousness". An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is all is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth realized is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so it is unto us.
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
>
> TKTE - p. 40
>
> "Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
>
> PTP - p. 20
>
> Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way.
>
> TKTE - p. 40
>
> "The second step cannot be taken unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years we spend in reading truth, attending services, lectures, and classes are fruitful in leading us to that point where inspiration flows from within our own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth."
>
> PTP - p. 21
>
> The second step, which leads to a state of consciousness where we are receptive and responsive to the still small voice, cannot be taken, however, unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years that a person has spent in reading truth, hearing truth, thinking truth, attending church services, lectures, or classes are fruitful in leading him to that point where inspiration flows from within his own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth.
>
> TKTE - p. 40
>
> "Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
> "To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away.
> "How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it.
>
> PTP - p. 21
>
> Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn that the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciouness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it.
>
> [Keep in mind Joel S. Goldsmith's book was called Practicing The Presence and that another phrase he used (and a book by that same name) was called The Infinite Way.]
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/SjghdLsP_t8J
>
> ... continuing from earlier post
>
> TKTE - p. 41
>
> "It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be the branch that withers away, unless we live so completely in the Word and let this Word live in us so that the Very Spirit dwells in us-the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of It, but most of us are as unaware of It as we are of the blood coursing through our veins. God is with us, God's presence fills all space, the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many have felt that presence? It is talked about, prayed for, theorized over, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced! It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence, which is necessary."
>
> PTP - pp. 21-22
>
> It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be a branch that withereth, until we so abide in the Word and let this Word abide in us that the very Spirit of God. There is a Spirit in man. There actually is a Spirit - the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of it, but most of us are as unaware of it as we are of the blood coursing through our bodies. God is with us. God's presence fills all space; the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many people have felt that Presence? It is talked about, prayed about, theorized about, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced. It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence which is necessary.
>
> TKTE - p. 41
>
> "In most religious teachings, we are told that God is everywhere, but this is not true in the sense of prevalence. If the Spirit of God were everywhere, all persons would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. The Spirit of God is present only where It is Realized. This is why we are all trying to become channels for Spirit."
>
> PTP - p. 22
>
> In most religious teachings, we are told that the Spirit God is everywhere, but that is not true. If the Spirit of the Lord were everywhere, everybody would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. No. the Spirit of the Lord is present only where it is realized.
>
> TKTE - p. 41
>
> "Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then as far as we are concerned, we do not have the realization of this Spirit. It is like electricity (which is everywhere, just as the Spirit of God is), but electricity is of little use or value to anyone unless it is connected in some way for a particular use. So it is with the Spirit of God. It is everywhere in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized."
>
> PTP - p. 22-23
>
> Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then, as far as we are concerned, we do not have this Spirit. Again, it is a case of rolling up the window shades, or it is like saying that electricity is everywhere. That is true. Electricity is everywhere just as the Spirit of God is everywhere. Electricity, however, will be of no value to us, unless it is connected in some way for our particular use. So it is with this Spirit of God. It is everywhere, in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized.
>
> TKTE - pp. 41-42
>
> "Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time. This does not mean he is going to neglect his human duties and activities. It means that he is going to train himself to have some area in his consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look at the forms of nature as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and live within the Word."
>
> PTP - p. 23
>
> The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. That does not mean that we neglect our human duties and activities; it means that we train himself to have some area of consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look out at forms of nature such as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and to abide in the Word.
>
> TKTE - p. 42
>
> "So it is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in all scriptures, but mainly in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, the Way of the Eternal."
>
> PTP - pp. 23-24
>
> It is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle, and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in scripture: Christian, Hebrew, and Oriental. Some of them are not found in any written form, but nevertheless, they are known to all the mystics of the world. The further we go in this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem, we do not have to think consciously of any of them.
>
> TKTE - p. 41
>
> "The deeper we go into this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding, and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem we do not have to consciously think of them.
> "Someday I will give these principles to you for publication. An understanding of the principles of spiritual living - that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth - is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship is to God. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble in a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth so that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being."
>
> PTP - p. 25
>
> An understanding of the principles of spiritual living, that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth, is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship to God and our fellowman is. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble into a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth in order that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and on another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of that which is. A spiritual life cannot be built without an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being.
>
> TKTE - p. 42
>
> "It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let God operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night until the actual awareness comes gradually. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be living in the world and shall gather in the harvest of Souls."
>
> PTP - p. 26
>
> It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let these principles operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night, until gradually the actual awareness comes. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be abiding in the Word and shall bear fruit richly. [... .]
>
> ***
>
> OK that's about the best I can do right now for the similarities between Twitchell and Goldsmith that I've found so far. I have them all in a different format, and where the paragraphs are not broken up, that might be possible to share in the future. I also have examples from the other authors listed on this thread. Bear in mind I am still researching Paul Twitchell's book The Key to Eckankar and may not have found all similarities (near and exact) to date when the book (or what Rebazar Tarzs reportedly said) is compared with other authors and their books. Most of them copyrighted.
>
> There is also Harold Klemp's Introduction for the 2003 version of TKTE that I want to append to this thread. Along with what he had to say about Rebazar Tarzs.
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/v_i6BDdTBjkJ
>
> "Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
>
> Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
>
> "Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."
>
> Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
>
> [Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/4T8Ss0btEFEJ
>
> Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp both made remarks about Rebazar Tarzs. Paul, reportedly taking down Rebazar's dictation and Harold Klemp further remarking about
>
> (1) the "conversation" "His [Rebazar Tarzs'] conversation with Paul ..."]
>
> and
>
> (2) the "dialogue" ["... the dialogue between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul ... ."]
>
> and Harold also (in some respects)
>
> (3) attempting to explain what Rebazar Tarzs meant.
>
> On this newsgroup (and in so many words) it was suggested, even stated, that plagiarisms do not discount the verity of Eck Masters. Iow, that plagiarisms (by the founder of Eckankar, that were not exactly words from Eck Masters, but rather words copied from library books and credited to certain Eck Masters, etc.) have as if nothing to do with whether Eck Masters are real, or not. It almost looks to me as if some people would rather like to sweep the study and illustration for a "growing list" of plagiarisms out of the way and off of this newsgroup. Although this action is not entirely certain, what is certain are the number of personal "attacks" and ridicule, etc. of those choosing to bring up and maintain a discussion and deeper study of this topic.
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/vlRM7X8Eke8J
>
> Quoting from FAQ section of official Eckankar website:
>
> "Is Eckankar a cult?
>
> "No.
>
> "The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult
>
> *********
>
> Comments:
>
> The word "beliefs" has an interesting context here.
>
> "It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others ..."
>
> Question;
>
> "What about belief in Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck Masters? Harold Klemp, the leader of Eckankar (See; The Key to Eckankar) appears to "speak for" Rebazar Tarzs. Is this the truth? Or is this Harold's belief?
>
> Observations:
>
> In his Introduction for Fourth Printing (1985) of The Key to Eckankar, Harold Klemp referenced Rebazar Tarzs. Harold wrote: [...] Rebazar Tarzs says that the individual first has to get "the correct letter of truth" before he can live in the spirit of truth. He tells how this is done. [... .]
>
> (See full Introduction for more insights and context.)
> http://tinyurl.com/o2ozxuo
>
> The Key to Eckankar section about "correct letter of truth" is one that very closely resembles the writings in Joel S. Goldsmith's book, Practicing the Presence of God - 1958 Iow, the words "correct letter of truth" appeared years before The Key to Eckankar book came out in 1968.
>
> Some sample quotes (from a much larger section of correspondences covering over a dozen paragraphs in consecutive order) illustrating similarity between the writings of Joel S. Goldsmith and the words of Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs.
>
> ***
>
> "Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
>
> Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
>
> "Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."
>
> Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
>
> [Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]
>
> ***
>
> "Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
>
> "To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away."
>
> Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
>
> Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. [...]
>
> Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
>
> ***
>
> "How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it."
>
> Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
>
> [...] How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it."
>
> Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
>
> [Note: All illustrations here should be checked for typos.]
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/218780789/82916572-Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith-1
>
> *********
>
> The official Eckankar website has a link about Rebazar Tarzs.
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html
>
> This link is response to a frequently asked question.
>
> Begin quote ...
>
> Do the ECK Masters really exist?
>
> The ECK Masters are real.
>
> People from all over the world and from all walks of life have had personal experiences with the ECK Masters years before Paul Twitchell brought them to the public eye.
>
> Many people who have never heard of Eckankar recognize ECK Masters from their dreams and other encounters.
>
> Here on the Eckankar Web site, you can read some of these stories and see pictures of some of these ECK Masters.
>
> Better yet, meet them for yourself. That's the real proof for any spiritual seeker.
>
> The book Those Wonderful ECK Masters (link opens in a new window) gives spiritual exercises to help you receive personal guidance from an ECK Master.
>
> ... end quote.
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#eckmasters
>
> More comments:
>
> From at least the 1970s - over 40 years ago - Eckankar has received feedback about examples of dubious biographical information surrounding what so many "Eck Masters" reportedly said, or wrote; along with a growing number of plagiarism examples and/or verbatim matches between the Eckankar writings and the writings of other gurus and New Age authors, etc.
> HOWEVER, when historical evidence of Eckankar masters is presented in story form, or according to what the Eckankar founder wrote, WHERE are all the examples of paraphrase and plagiarism showing convincing evidence for the very real prospect that Paul Twitchell, or somebody, took from the writings of other authors and used them like a literary device to animate a historical record of Eckankar masters?
> It appears to me that a propaganda campaign has been carried forward for a good number of years in which stories that support the belief of "real" Eck masters are promoted, whereas stories and black and white evidence to the contrary is NOT so much promoted.
>
> *********
>
> Quoting from the Eckankar website again:
>
> "The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AEhzOYFzWck/dsFcIwx7KKUJ
>
> More reference links:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ae1tfX28RMk/utNnWx_GSqoJ
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/C6u9t1O-MpE/OAkXUTY7ns4J
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OB416Fe7BmA/Ja3co0ofzbgJ

"[...] We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. [... .]"

"[...] We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. [... .]"

[Henosis Sage]

WOW, LONG LIST OF LIFTING OTHER PEOPLE'S WRITINGS IN TKTE

> "[...] We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. [... .]"
>
> "[...] We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. [... .]"

SAID HAROLD KLEMP ;-)

SO WHY ALL THE COPYING?

DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE?

MAYBE IT DOESN'T

IS ECKANKAR ANY DIFFERENT THAN ALL THE REST?

MAYBE NOT

AS FAR AS EFFICACY AND USEFULNESS ARE CONCERNED.

AND AS FAR AS RE-TOOLING OTHER PEOPLE'S WRITINGS ARE CONCERNED?

AKA DO ANYONE'S WRITINGS REALLY MATTER THAT MUCH AT ALL AT THE END OF THE DAY?

(Rhetorical contemplations for no one in particular fwiw)

[Henosis Sage]

I just caught this. LOL

St Paul was a real living person, an historical figure, who walked this earth.

They have his "letters" to prove it too. And historical records in places like Korinth in Greece (ie where the Corinthians lived and where St Paul lived for many years himself. )

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 3:41:12 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> St. Paul is not a good comparison for R.T. Not in my opinion.
>
> How bout you?

So look at this thread along with your current thread about keeping the pseudo Rebazar Tarzs.

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 8:41:48 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:

> Okay. Okay. He's not.
>
> Your original post was about Rebazar Tarzs claimed by three paths. Then something about the plain truth way, way more important than plagiarism. What did you mean? Or after all this does it make any difference now?

Detractor. Apologist. Etc. See. This is a pattern with you. How freaking long did it take you to answer a simple question? Then after you finally do its "does it make any difference now?" You and crooked Hillary seem to have similar reasoning.

[Etznab]

Yes. So why did Fife try to compare R.T. to a saint like St. Paul? It doesn't make sense.

[fife]

11:43 PMEtznab

11:46 PMEtznab

What's the beef? Where's the beef? St. Paul supposedly invented Christianity. Rebazar Tarzs is supposedly the source for modern Eckankar. Gave it to Paul Twitchell. I was making a comparison.

Detractor and Apologist? Ha ha. I think only you could decide someone's both. But that's okay.

[Henosis Sage]

Only God knows Etznab .... it's above my pay grade!

But it's typical disruptive aggressive behaviour, you know, things that irritable annoying trolls do.

Like dogs running after cars driving by barking their heads off.

Annoying.

And he doesn't really care an itoa what anyone says here .. he's got a mission to fulfil .... bitch and moan and complain about anything by you or I.

B O R I N G

[Etznab]

"[...] Rebazar Tarzs is supposedly the source for modern Eckankar. Gave it to Paul Twitchell. [... .]"

[Etznab]

This thread is also insightful with regard to the responses. For example, the first response on this thread.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/L3IHK0Odr3M/hHdW_s6jAAAJ