Plagiarism only proves Plagiarism happened?

[Henosis Sage]

Plagiarism only proves Plagiarism happened?

Not so............. plagiarism proves beyond doubt that the holy scriptures of Eckankar, the books, the discourses, the teachings are partly taken from a long line of pulp fiction sci-fi fantasy authors in particular , and also from various well known novelists and journalists and quacks of the recent past including "penny a word" hack writers like L Ron Hubbard, Talbot Mundy (William Lancaster Gribbon), Alexander Cannon, H. Rider Haggard, Rudyard Kipling, and Jack London (John Griffith Chaney).

From a range of disparate writers like Leo Tolstoy, Ali Nomad (Alexander J. McIvor-Tyndall), Anton T. Boisen, Heinrich R. Zimmer, Willard L. Russell, Theron Q. Dumon, Paul Brunton, Thomas Troward, Baird Spalding, Lord Byron, Shelley, and Elizabeth Barrett Browning.

From George du Maurier, Christmas Humphreys, Robert Graves, Col. James Churchward, Edourd Schure, Max Eastman, Napoleon Hill, Vardis Fisher, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, William S. Burroughs and Walt Whitman.

This to name only a few of the conga line of writers that Twitchell copied his writings from verbatim or slightly edited to fit his 'fictional philosophy' and 'fictional masters' hierarchy. One can add to these many other well known authors and teachers in Psychology, Spirituality, Religion, Science, the New Age, New Thought, Christian Science, Theosophy, Freemasonry, Hindu, Buddhist, and Sufi from the 19th and 20th centuries and going back centuries.

Given that at least 90% of all Twitchell's writings have been copied verbatim and plagiarized from a multitude of others this also proves beyond doubt that when Twitchell said Rebazar Tarzs (originally Tarzu) was dictating to him or talking to him, he wasn't. That when Twitchell says that the SKS books were dictated by Fubbi Quantz, they weren't.

When Twitchell tells his stories in The Tiger's Fang of his so-called God-Realization experiences they were not, and when hanging out with the 'spiritual travelers' he wasn't - instead he was reading his library books and the extracts he had kept of them.

That every time Twitchell mentions or relays dialogue with Gopal Das, Rami Nuri, Yaubl Sacabi (originally Sucabi, then Socabi), Kata Daki, Shamus-i-Tabriz (the only real historical person), Towart Managi, the Eshwar-Khanewale, Lords of the Planes, or Lai Tsi (imitating Laozi aka Lao Tsu) they too are a total fiction. His stories and his teachings are not true.

And it does not matter a jot how many people claim to have had or 'report' their 'inner' or 'dream' experiences with these masters. It's still not true what Twitchell said in his writings and in his teachings. None of it is.

Selected pieces of text may well be 'true' in part, but THE WHOLE OF IT combined is not true, it's NOT EVEN HALF TRUE.

There is no grandiose hierarchy of Vairagi Eck Masters or Mahantas as described by Paul Twitchell and maintained by Harold Klemp and all the other spin-offs today. Never has been never will be.

The fact is, "a fact" is a piece of truth. But it is up to all of us how we each fit these facts, these pieces of truth, within the structure of accepted knowledge we have all created for ourselves.


So there are Three Perfect Truisms for the Month of April 2016 ongoing:

"You might be entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to make
up your own facts to support those opinions."

"It's a fact that having opinions about facts does not make your opinion a fact."

"But you cannot tell people things they do not want to know!"

[Etznab]

What I think is that some people were fooled into taking literary fictions for literary fact since they couldn't imagine a so-called Living Eck Master and Mahanta deceiving them. The idea that someone copied passages from library books ... disguised the sources (by not mentioning the sources) behind a blind of literary fictions, pseudo history and religion is not what Eckankar was said to be. It was supposed to be like a hub from which the other paths / religions radiated like spokes. It was supposed to have an ancient unbroken lineage of masters. According to some individuals it was not supposed to be like all the other religions and guilty of creating fictions from the writings of stories and legends from previous cultures. Iow, in the minds of some people Eckankar was closer to the truth and not riddled with pseudo history, religion and lies like all the rest!

Years ago I looked at Paul Twitchell's writings in chronological order. And as far as historical facts go, personal letters are usually better sources to draw from than are written books. And I know that Paul Twitchell's letters to Gail were later turned into books (and may have been edited for Eckankar), but still I looked at the subject matter and what came first. What came first is what was mentioned in Harold Klemp's 1980s talks about Paul Twitchell and his writings. It can be summed up in one word: IDEAL!

Paul wrote about ideals and the need to have an ideal. This was something in the first letters. In fact, a number of letters talked about ideals. So given the amount of appropriated materials and name changes, etc., it looks to me like Paul (and all those who helped him) knowingly and intentionally wanted to form and create a particular kind of ideal.

IMHO this is the crux of the fighting between Eckists and Non-ECkists over the years. It is one side wanting to hold to an ideal and another side wanting to infuse that ideal with truth; to the extent of purging the elements of fiction and pseudo history / religion from the ideal.

Isn't it what all religions have done (according to Kinpa, etc.)? I mean, make up stories, plagiarize and embellish, etc., etc.

I think what is wrong with adding the truth is that it removes the liberty to create bullshit and bunk. It decreases the chances of filling the coffers and building expensive structures.

Here's a though. What about a religion that made it its mission to expose all of the literary fictions pseudo history religion? I mean not only in it's own history, but the history of religions in general? I think a religion like that could find support from the growing number of people who despise being lied to by no less than "God", etc.

If Kinpa and others are unhappy with people focusing on these plagiarisms and all the pseudo history / religion then I think they would do much better being unhappy with themselves and not projecting their anger onto others who are not responsible for the stages of anger, denial and bargaining etc. that accompany the death of an ideal.

Here's the thing. Paul and "Eckankar" might have created an "ideal" littered with (and propped up by) literary fictions, copying, plagiarisms, paraphrase, redaction, name changes, etc. and profited greatly by that as many people came to believe and donate their time, money and support. However, fictional ideals in this day and age are growing less popular and suffering a slow death. This is what I saw ten years ago when I took the blinders off and began to look at, question and explore even what Paul Twitchell and Eckankar said was true. It may seem unprecedented for a member of religion (a member of Eckankar) to not believe on faith alone - especially when what they believed in was found to exist in Non-Eckankar books as if copied from those books and stamped with the name of "Eckankar" - and tell the truth, but I don't think so. I think a number of people in Eckankar have been telling the truth for years, many of whom were clergy for decades, and that others couldn't handle the truth and turned on the ones they once respected and looked up to. Kinpa's incidence of not being able to admit that I am a member of Eckankar is just one more example of the "our way or the highway" folks who tromp around in big muddy boots going looking for chicken dinners!

When the former kinds of things continue to happen and the brazen lies made to be public, there are ways to see that these are reported and people alerted to the growing cult of those who persecute truth in the name of religion. Writing to Harold and Eckankar is but a baby step compared to what other avenues are available to see that the hate mongers, "extremists" and "terrorists" sheltered by religious liberties are reported to authorities. So I fear not any Kinpa's and their army of 1600+ followers claiming I am not an Eckist with a current membership card. No court in United States can prove that I have not been - for decades - and still are an active Eckankar member. And if Kinpa and others can't can't handle the truth and want to attack me publicly and personally as a result then I will make sure it does not go unnoticed. And I will alert those who have suffered from similar attacks in the past, or might suffer from future kinds of attack. Then we will see just how strong is the Kinpa Kungfu :)

[Henosis Sage]

---

Ideally, it's ideal to have an ideal.

What about this great example of Twitchell's verbatim plagiarizing found in The Flute of God book?

Quoting from the original source: "Apart from Truth being spoken to others, Truth is an absolute need in our lives. We must see Truth and know Truth and think Truth, always. If we refuse to see Truth, or pretend we cannot tell what is true and what is not; if we distort Truth or seek to mix it with untruth; if we, in fact, like to deceive both ourselves and others if the truth does not present an attractive aspect to us, then chaos will reign in our lives. Our Real Self will be in conflict with our outer self and we shall continually find ourselves in the most unpleasant situations. "

"This is a time for Truth, the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. This is no time for half truths, for bewilderment and lack of understanding, for these are the soil in which helpless grief grows. In truth alone is there comfort and understanding and courage. That is why, because I understand so well, I am giving you Truth."

by 'Bernard' of England who was active sending out Discourses to students like Paul Twitchell from the 1940s to 1990s

Ref: http://thought-bricks.com/courses/thought-bricks-foundation-lessons/thought-bricks-11-real-die/
http://www.oocities.org/dreamjourneytoheaven/books.html - http://thought-bricks.com/heaven-books-2/

One will also find it in the front of Doug Marman's The Whole Truth book
as shown here on this page
http://spiritualdialogues.com/books/the-whole-truth-the-spiritual-legacy-of-paul-twitchell/

Followed by some waffle by Doug about "Separating Opinions from Truth"

[Henosis Sage]

---

'Bernard' of England who was active sending out Discourses to students like Paul Twitchell from the 1940s to 1990s

And guess who would know that? Harold Klemp would. Doug Marman may well have seen them and Darwin Gross as well. Patti too. And Gail would have, should have known. The topic of Bernard did come up you know, or you should know. Because Twitchell's discourses from Bernard were likely have been in Paul Twitchell's personal archive that Gail Twitchell sold to Eckankar for $500,000 in July 1982.

Harold Klemp speaks about this archive in his public talks about Twitchell in 1984 and 1985. Doug spoke about these matters too over the years. However Doug decided it was time only for half truths and untruths, for bewilderment and lack of understanding, during the period that he was arguing with Lane on a.r.e., writing up his DITAOC website chapters, and later his TWT book the soil in which helpless grief grew.

Of course as Bernard suggests, and it might be true, If we refuse to see Truth, or pretend we cannot tell what is true and what is not; if we distort Truth or seek to mix it with untruth; if we, in fact, like to deceive both ourselves and others if the truth does not present an attractive aspect to us, then chaos will reign in our lives. Our Real Self will be in conflict with our outer self and we shall continually find ourselves in the most unpleasant situations.

Now, ain't that the truth. Especially when it comes to Twitchell in the years leading up to his death starting from 1966 and for Klemp the whole period that he has been the LEM.

[Kinpa]

On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 12:48:09 PM UTC, Etznab wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 10:01:12 PM UTC-5, Henosis Sage wrote:
> > Plagiarism only proves Plagiarism happened?
> >
> > Not so............. plagiarism proves beyond doubt that the holy scriptures of Eckankar, the books, the discourses, the teachings are partly taken from a long line of pulp fiction sci-fi fantasy authors in particular , and also from various well known novelists and journalists and quacks of the recent past including "penny a word" hack writers like L Ron Hubbard, Talbot Mundy (William Lancaster Gribbon), Alexander Cannon, H. Rider Haggard, Rudyard Kipling, and Jack London (John Griffith Chaney).
> >
> > From a range of disparate writers like Leo Tolstoy, Ali Nomad (Alexander J. McIvor-Tyndall), Anton T. Boisen, Heinrich R. Zimmer, Willard L. Russell, Theron Q. Dumon, Paul Brunton, Thomas Troward, Baird Spalding, Lord Byron, Shelley, and Elizabeth Barrett Browning.
> >
> > From George du Maurier, Christmas Humphreys, Robert Graves, Col. James Churchward, Edourd Schure, Max Eastman, Napoleon Hill, Vardis Fisher, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, William S. Burroughs and Walt Whitman.
> >
> > This to name only a few of the conga line of writers that Twitchell copied his writings from verbatim or slightly edited to fit his 'fictional philosophy' and 'fictional masters' hierarchy. One can add to these many other well known authors and teachers in Psychology, Spirituality, Religion, Science, the New Age, New Thought, Christian Science, Theosophy, Freemasonry, Hindu, Buddhist, and Sufi from the 19th and 20th centuries and going back centuries.
> >
> > Given that at least 90% of all Twitchell's writings have been copied verbatim and plagiarized from a multitude of others this also proves beyond doubt that when Twitchell said Rebazar Tarzs (originally Tarzu) was dictating to him or talking to him, he wasn't. That when Twitchell says that the SKS books were dictated by Fubbi Quantz, they weren't.
> >
> > When Twitchell tells his stories in The Tiger's Fang of his so-called God-Realization experiences they were not, and when hanging out with the 'spiritual travelers' he wasn't - instead he was reading his library books and the extracts he had kept of them.
> >
> > That every time Twitchell mentions or relays dialogue with Gopal Das, Rami Nuri, Yaubl Sacabi (originally Sucabi, then Socabi), Kata Daki, Shamus-i-Tabriz (the only real historical person), Towart Managi, the Eshwar-Khanewale, Lords of the Planes, or Lai Tsi (imitating Laozi aka Lao Tsu) they too are a total fiction. His stories and his teachings are not true.
> >
> > And it does not matter a jot how many people claim to have had or 'report' their 'inner' or 'dream' experiences with these masters. It's still not true what Twitchell said in his writings and in his teachings. None of it is.
> >
> > Selected pieces of text may well be 'true' in part, but THE WHOLE OF IT combined is not true, it's NOT EVEN HALF TRUE.
> >
> > There is no grandiose hierarchy of Vairagi Eck Masters or Mahantas as described by Paul Twitchell and maintained by Harold Klemp and all the other spin-offs today. Never has been never will be.
> >
> > The fact is, "a fact" is a piece of truth. But it is up to all of us how we each fit these facts, these pieces of truth, within the structure of accepted knowledge we have all created for ourselves.
> >
> >
> > So there are Three Perfect Truisms for the Month of April 2016 ongoing:
> >
> > "You might be entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to make
> > up your own facts to support those opinions."
> >
> > "It's a fact that having opinions about facts does not make your opinion a fact."
> >
> > "But you cannot tell people things they do not want to know!"
>
> What I think is that some people were fooled into taking literary fictions for literary fact since they couldn't imagine a so-called Living Eck Master and Mahanta deceiving them. The idea that someone copied passages from library books ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I disagree....that beside the fact that not only was i never fooled, but also in the fact that I consider it unimportant that a Living ECK Master plagiarized...this is yet another case of the pot calling the kettle black, it is etznab that is angry about having been "deceived."

disguised the sources (by not mentioning the sources) behind a blind of literary fictions, pseudo history and religion is not what Eckankar was said to be. It was supposed to be like a hub from which the other paths / religions radiated like spokes. It was supposed to have an ancient unbroken lineage of masters. According to some individuals it was not supposed to be like all the other religions and guilty of creating fictions from the writings of stories and legends from previous cultures. Iow, in the minds of some people Eckankar was closer to the truth and not riddled with pseudo history, religion and lies like all the rest!

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
These statements show just how inexperienced you truly are with anything having any actual spirituality, which is hardly surprising being that you value ONLY written works as sources of information....a small detail that not only proves you to NOT be an ECKist, but also one that proves you have no spiritual experience to speak of....which explains your dependance on plagiarism...without it your strawman falls apart......sean's silly attempt at proving that plagiarism proves anything other than plagiarism is also a complete fail, but that is to be expected, as he is every bit as angry at Eckankar as you are, and is also in somewhat a lesser mental state...a psychologist would have a field day with that one, and DO note that I have not made any diagnosis nor littered this with wikipedia links....now, back to the idea of Eckankar or any other religion being the base from which all other religions sprang from as spokes.....the reality of that is a thing that a great many have spoken about long before Paul Twitchell did anything, although it was predominantly a Sufi feature and way of explaining things. ALL religions are mental, and nothing more than that, as are all names, words, numbers, symbols and the systems that go along with them. Numerology has nothing to offer that can transcend the mental. Not possible....Paul Twitchell put Eckankar in that spot, Shamus-i Tabrizi called it the Real, Guru Nanak called it Sat Nam....not hard to understand, even for folks that enjoy spending their time within the confines of the mental....

> Years ago I looked at Paul Twitchell's writings in chronological order. And as far as historical facts go, personal letters are usually better sources to draw from than are written books. And I know that Paul Twitchell's letters to Gail were later turned into books (and may have been edited for Eckankar), but still I looked at the subject matter and what came first. What came first is what was mentioned in Harold Klemp's 1980s talks about Paul Twitchell and his writings. It can be summed up in one word: IDEAL!
>
> Paul wrote about ideals and the need to have an ideal. This was something in the first letters. In fact, a number of letters talked about ideals. So given the amount of appropriated materials and name changes, etc., it looks to me like Paul (and all those who helped him) knowingly and intentionally wanted to form and create a particular kind of ideal.
>
> IMHO this is the crux of the fighting between Eckists and Non-ECkists over the years. It is one side wanting to hold to an ideal and another side wanting to infuse that ideal with truth; to the extent of purging the elements of fiction and pseudo history / religion from the ideal.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What fighting??? I'm not seeing any...perhaps you are severely overstating your importance, as you generally do.....20 years from today there will not be one person that will remember richard mcclintock or sean arundel as being the people who informed them about plagiarisms.....nor will Eckankar ever do so....

> Isn't it what all religions have done (according to Kinpa, etc.)? I mean, make up stories, plagiarize and embellish, etc., etc.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pretty much, yes....study the history, and don't be afraid to look outside of Eckankar....didn't sean go off on St. Matthew for plagiarizing a Buddhist text that is now found in the Gospel of Matthew?? For the sake of argument we'll forget that plagiarism didn't even exist until after 1700...and it didn't, ANYWHERE! OOPS! Guru Nanak taught upgraded INTERPRETATIONS of Hindu doctrines, all of which are certainly the oldest known form of spirituality on the planet, certainly existing over 12,000 years ago. Buddhism is a reformation of Hinduism, as is Jainism and Sikhism....guess what?? ALL of those have refurbished and reinterpreted principles from HINDUISM! OOPS again! Judaism was wrought from (depending on which sources one chooses to believe) Hinduism at the oldest, and Zoroastrianism at the most recent possible, and guess what?? More reinterpretations of universal concepts that were known for centuries, even back into shamanism, the oldest known structure of spirituality amongst humanity....Muhammed did the same when he began Islam....and so it goes, on and on and on...however, feel free to stick to your guns over there! Those that read here will certainly enjoy what you say!

> I think what is wrong with adding the truth is that it removes the liberty to create bullshit and bunk. It decreases the chances of filling the coffers and building expensive structures.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And yet it actually doesn't at all! Said structures are built anyways, and the coffers are never empty! So what does that leave you with?? An inability to admit that you were wrong? Or can you show that any structures were NOT built nor coffers filled? You DID make the claim, have ANY evidence?? No? Why am I not surprised?? Funny thing for an idealist "ECKist" such as yourself to say while also lying.....

> Here's a though. What about a religion that made it its mission to expose all of the literary fictions pseudo history religion? I mean not only in it's own history, but the history of religions in general? I think a religion like that could find support from the growing number of people who despise being lied to by no less than "God", etc.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Does this mean that you are starting a religion for yourself? It certainly sounds as if you are saying that, while also claiming that Eckankar isn't doing a good enough job for your standards...another point for the "etznab is NOT an ECKist" camp!

> If Kinpa and others are unhappy with people focusing on these plagiarisms and all the pseudo history / religion then I think they would do much better being unhappy with themselves and not projecting their anger onto others who are not responsible for the stages of anger, denial and bargaining etc. that accompany the death of an ideal.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And here richie refuses to abide by his own advice! Classic! One point however, I have never been "unhappy with people focusing on these plagiarisms and all the pseudo history / religion" So who are you speaking of?? Or are you imagining that everyone else feels so strongly against you? Co-dependent much??? LOL

> Here's the thing. Paul and "Eckankar" might have created an "ideal" littered with (and propped up by) literary fictions, copying, plagiarisms, paraphrase, redaction, name changes, etc. and profited greatly by that as many people came to believe and donate their time, money and support. However, fictional ideals in this day and age are growing less popular and suffering a slow death. This is what I saw ten years ago when I took the blinders off and began to look at, question and explore even what Paul Twitchell and Eckankar said was true. It may seem unprecedented for a member of religion (a member of Eckankar) to not believe on faith alone - especially when what they believed in was found to exist in Non-Eckankar books as if copied from those books and stamped with the name of "Eckankar" - and tell the truth, but I don't think so. I think a number of people in Eckankar have been telling the truth for years, many of whom were clergy for decades, and that others couldn't handle the truth and turned on the ones they once respected and looked up to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Opinion...I notice that you speak against believing on faith alone, but you also dismiss anyone's direct experiences as being false, a thing that YOU have nothing but "faith alone" in! DOUBLE STANDARD~!! OOPS!!! Have any evidence that anyone's inner experiences are fake or faulty or untrue?? Can you prove that no Rebazar Tarzs exists, or that he is actually a fictional character? Your point of view pretty much demands it....

Kinpa's incidence of not being able to admit that I am a member of Eckankar is just one more example of the "our way or the highway" folks who tromp around in big muddy boots going looking for chicken dinners!

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here you are just plain full of shit! Silly boy, there is no "not being able to admit" here, what it IS is that you have never proven yourself to be an ECKist. Not even one time, but you expect me, and anyone else reading, to accept your claim as truth, "on faith alone." DOUBLE STANDARD! Is that seriously the best you can do? And I am hardly a "my way or the highway" anything...I simply find that you have no PROOF of ANYTHING you claim to have! Assumptions are only assumptions without direct evidence! Seriously, go into your local courthouse and watch a trial or three, and pay attention to the types of evidence that is accepted in court, because you seem to have no clue as to what constitutes evidence! It is NEVER assumptions! NEVER! That is HEARSAY! Less valuable than is an eye-witness report, which is in fact worthless!

> When the former kinds of things continue to happen and the brazen lies made to be public, there are ways to see that these are reported and people alerted to the growing cult of those who persecute truth in the name of religion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brazen lies? Which? Have proof that any were lies? Or just verbal claims?

Writing to Harold and Eckankar is but a baby step compared to what other avenues are available to see that the hate mongers, "extremists" and "terrorists" sheltered by religious liberties are reported to authorities. So I fear not any Kinpa's and their army of 1600+ followers claiming I am not an Eckist with a current membership card.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are no terrorist you feeble minded fool! Again you overvalue your importance and your assumptions FAR over any degree of value any might actually contain! No one is a hate monger, because no one cares THAT much about you or whether you are or are not an ECKist! WTF??? You do NOT rate that highly on ANYONE'S scale!

No court in United States can prove that I have not been - for decades - and still are an active Eckankar member. And if Kinpa and others can't can't handle the truth and want to attack me publicly and personally as a result then I will make sure it does not go unnoticed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No court in the United States will ever prove ANY thing! You ought to seriously reconsider opening your mouth this way, because it damages your credibility to no end! You obviously have NO clue how a court works! COURTS DO NOT PROVE ANYTHING! EVER! That is not their job, so why in the bloody hell would one even try to prove anything???? Attorneys do the proving and disproving! Judges and juries merely rule on it! Courts pass judgment, nothing more and nothing less!

Nothing has gone unnoticed, a great many witnesses have seen each of your outbursts, and sean's as well...neither of you have contacted ANY law-enforcement agency, and even if you did, you would immediately find out that no law was ever broken! Such doltery is simply amazing! I have obviously been giving you considerably too much credit! No worries, that will NOT happen again~!

http://s20.postimg.org/ma1m2hyfh/Poor_Richie_Mathers_Mc_Clintock.jpg

[Kinpa]

http://s20.postimg.org/ma1m2hyfh/Poor_Richie_Mathers_Mc_Clintock.jpg

[Kinpa]

http://s20.postimg.org/ma1m2hyfh/Poor_Richie_Mathers_Mc_Clintock.jpg

[Etznab]

This is how Kinpa (who called me no Arahata and no Eckist) responds ...

I wonder how many more "Kinpa's" there are in Eckankar who criticize another person's spiritual unfoldment (saying they have no inner experiences, etc.), tell them they are no Eckankar member (and when the head office says otherwise) and cops a my way or the highway attitude? Harold wrote about such individuals and even said he wanted to know about them.

Well, well ... after over a year of communicating with Kinpa about his lies and childish antics maybe, just maybe it is time to show Harold what I'm talking about.

Oh ... but Kinpa already went and did that. Didn't he?

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/dNmAgHizJ20/ydNDD-STBQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/-xfUchdwlOA/EGt5KcfYAQAJ

And one of countless other ways Kinpa responds to "Plagiarism only proves plagiarism" is with the obsession of creating pseudonyms and pseudo characters.

http://s20.postimg.org/ma1m2hyfh/Poor_Richie_Mathers_Mc_Clintock.jpg

In other words, making up a false name and picture. Hey. But isn't that what it looks like Paul Twitchell and Eckankar have done?

So is this where it comes from? Kinpa is mimicking his role models?

There is one major difference between Paul Twitchell and Kinpa. The latter is still around to answer for his actions. In fact, he answers regularly.

[Henosis Sage]

I have explored numerous paths and encountered numerous gurus, And you know, to be honest, it has always been their students who are most deserving of contempt. As the saying goes, there is a special place in hell....

[Etznab]

I think it true that ultimately the greatest influence upon the history of a religion are the members of same. They are far greater in number and their ranks grow to contribute in spite of the founders and leaders who come and go.

Look how many members are still living even after Paul Twitchell and Darwin Gross have translated. Iow, the influence is greater by the living than it is by the already dead. What I am saying is that Paul Twitchell is not here to fix, or change anything and neither is Darwin. Neither are many of the older clergy who belonged to the upper rungs of authority in the early days. They are no longer here to influence the path and are also unable to comment about new revelations of borrowing and plagiarism, etc. The latter falls to the current members to both deal with and hope to clarify and explain.

For many years already are numerous examples of current and former members trying to hold discussions about facts vs. fictions in light of new revelations in the form of plagiarisms and redaction. So much more is know now than was known before and IMHO the trend will only grow to the extent that future generations will come to "do something about it" someday and not just talk about having to do something someday.

In point of fact, many, many hours of research and illustration have taken place and the findings made available online in this group and others. So many of the purported sayings of Rebazar Tarzs, other Eck Masters and heavenly beings have been spotlighted side by side with writings from a hodgepodge of New Age writers and other gurus. It is not simply a case of borrowing and sharing of ideas. Not just a case of paraphrase. No. It is also a case of word for word, sentence after sentence and paragraph after paragraph following the same basic orders as from the appropriated sources. In other words, plagiarism and then the crediting of Eck Masters and other heavenly beings as source.

My basic question would be something like: "Why do spiritual adepts from an ancient lineage and heavenly beings from other planes need to copy from library books in order to be heard? Paul Twitchell (According to the late Eckankar president, Louis Bluth) copied because the other authors said things better than Paul could. Other people said it better, obviously. And Paul evidently drew from a number of real living people, but I don't recall Paul saying that he copied because Eck Masters told him to. And I don't remember Paul saying that Eck Masters told him to plagiarize and credit the Eck Masters instead of the actual real life authors.

So whatever gross fictions Paul Twitchell made up (in order to create an ideal, whatever), Paul is not here to continue that form of creation. And what I saw over ten years ago was that people would eventually come to see through what fictions had been taken literally and that such people would have an influence on the current membership; either by ending their support and leaving the path, or by speaking the truth in spite of popular ignorance, or do both. This is what I saw and that there is now no escape from after much of the dialogue, the research, the findings and facts have been made public on the Net. It is not the same as years ago before computers. The influence that people have for sharing is greater now and a single person with a single truth can share it with millions of people in an instant.

What do people really know? Including all of the members who have left? Will things always be able to continue as before with no new facts come to the surface and greater clarification of fact vs. fiction? Much of what I write is not wholly by choice as it is by necessity. Already now there are several branches having come out of Eckankar and formed other paths with other masters; and speaking for the allegedly ancient lineage of masters. Why isn't everybody now following the same one path and the same one master? Obviously because not everybody agrees about the truth. Now just imagine this. Imagine that fictions were interpreted to be literary facts, but interpreted in several different ways. Would it not be wise to expose the fictions for what they are and end the wrangling over what is true and what is false? The root of the "plant" are the fictions and the "plants" will continue to grow and produce other similar "plants" with constitutions of fiction that can never really be respected as literal truth except by imagination and ignorance about the truth. Example: "Why wrote so much of the words said to come from Rebazar Tarzs? And where did the writer get those words from really? Don't people have a right to respect the actual truth over and above pseudo man-made history and religion?

[Henosis Sage]

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re "Don't people have a right to respect the actual truth over and above pseudo man-made history and religion?"

Apparently not Etznab.

Certainly not on the lightforcenetwork and definitely not in Eckankar.

Something caught my eye as a scrolled down the page to read your post Etznab.

By the psychotic liar Kinpoop who said about Twitchell's plagiarism

"...that beside the fact that not only was i never fooled "

OMG now that really cracks me up no end. ROFL I must ahve missed that one.

then again I hardly read anything that asshole writes anyway except by accident if it jumps out.

What total fuckwit he is. God help his children, they surely will need it.