Another Question for Doug
Drmarman
USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
> Dear Doug,
>
> I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
> about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
> Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
>
> Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
> Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
>
> Thank You,
> Usually Skeptical
I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started
there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most
humble people back then.
I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.
I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to
organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there.
It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times,
as I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back
together into their original form.
I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at
the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much
interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual
teachings.
I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing his
book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete set
of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was
there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.
I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in the
organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to represent
anyone else but myself and my own understanding.
Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go through
Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's home. I
learned a lot more about Paul there.
Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old
writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on
in the last chapter of my book.
As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some
could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my
interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because
Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before
he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow
he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had
learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly
what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong.
Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the
Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What
Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that
some of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth
about the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources
of all of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.
The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library. It
was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point of
Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the
beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a
god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold
talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the
family - rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then
disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because
plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk,
concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he
finally saw Paul.
Here's how Harold ends his talk:
"I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the
other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see
Paul--busy as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of
gruffly, "What's that?"
" 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.
" 'For what? ' he asks.
" 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.
" 'Oh, ' he says. 'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '
"Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.
"Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something
about that someday! "
Here is what David Lane said in his book:
Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so
that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.
In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was
breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very
thing he was studying in his dream.
David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long dialogues
about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm
explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't
plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would
Harold need to clean up a mess?
But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David accused
him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken
interpretation.
David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might draw
the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know that
the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the
opposite.
I hope this helps.
Thanks.
Doug Marman.
Etznab
could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my
interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BHHQir5vLtQ/f6up7NO6BZ0J
The last sentence is interesting. Including "Harold could see the sources of all of Paul's books"
Question 1: Could Harold also see how many times the source WAS NOT Rebazar Tarz?
Question 2: What does this reveal about "Rebazar Tarzs"?
Etznab
" 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply."
It is curious. Especially when you see three different versions of what Harold allegedly said. Notice the difference here.
(1) " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, [... .]"
- Based on Doug Marman's version in his 2000 online book.
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Ten.htm
(2) "[...] For ... from where a lot of the writings ... Eck writings on Earth came from [... .]"
- Version based on 1984 (April) Eckankar International Youth Conference, audiotape 4312, copyright 1984, side two (near the end).
(3) "[...] For a lot of the ECK writings to be done on earth, [... .]"
- Based on: Eckankar transcript version in Harold's book and on the official Eckankar website.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/phX6sRRCIEo/k36KqNe9u6wJ
So the actual voice recording is close to what Doug quoted. However, the newer version of official website (last time I looked) shows a new choice of words!
Amazing how much that record of history was changed!!!
The source, the SAME source (ECKANKAR International Youth Conference, Las Vegas, Nevada, Saturday, April 21, 1984), has two different records??? Am I seeing / hearing this correctly? How does this happen?
(2) "[...] For ... from where a lot of the writings ... Eck writings on Earth came from [... .]"
- Version based on 1984 (April) Eckankar International Youth Conference, audiotape 4312, copyright 1984, side two (near the end).
(3) "[...] For a lot of the ECK writings to be done on earth, [... .]"
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
- Based on: Eckankar transcript version in Harold's book and on the official Eckankar website. (Also ECKANKAR International Youth Conference, Las Vegas, Nevada, Saturday, April 21, 1984???)
How can that be? So after Harold and Doug looked at Paul's files and Harold discovered a "growing list", Doug says that Harold could know about all of Paul's sources? And Harold says: "[...] 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, [... .]" ???
Evidently "ECK writings on earth came from" somehow changed to "ECK writings to be done on earth".
Let's look at them another way.
"ECK writings on earth came from"
The first version agrees with the audio and with Doug's quoting of Harold. The second version is based on what evidence exactly? And if the newest version was from a 1989 book then why doesn't Doug mention this when he writes about how harold ended his talk.
" 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply."
Quoting Doug
Etznab,
Someone wrote to me recently about a post of yours, where you mentioned that Paul once said that Sudar Singh had a son who went to Harvard.
Can you track down the tape that you heard this on? I'd like to listento it.
Here's what you said, to refresh your memory [... .]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/0PlkI4btLsg/sOEhViiPPXwJ
Hey now! Let's refresh Doug's memory. It was Oxford (clearly shown in my post that Doug snipped), not Harvard.
Etznab
It is curious. Especially when you see three different versions of what Harold allegedly said. Notice the difference here.
(1) " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, [... .]"
- Based on Doug Marman's version in his 2000 online book.
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Ten.htm
(2) "[...] For ... from where a lot of the writings ... Eck writings on Earth came from [... .]"
- Version based on 1984 (April) Eckankar International Youth Conference, audiotape 4312, copyright 1984, side two (near the end).
(3) "[...] For a lot of the ECK writings to be done on earth, [... .]"
- Based on: Eckankar transcript version in Harold's book and on the official Eckankar website.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/phX6sRRCIEo/k36KqNe9u6wJ
So the actual voice recording is close to what Doug quoted. However, the newer version of official website (last time I looked) shows a new choice of words!
Amazing how much that record of history was changed!!!
The source, the SAME source (ECKANKAR International Youth Conference, Las Vegas, Nevada, Saturday, April 21, 1984), has two different records??? Am I seeing / hearing this correctly? How does this happen?
(2) "[...] For ... from where a lot of the writings ... Eck writings on Earth came from [... .]"
- Version based on 1984 (April) Eckankar International Youth Conference, audiotape 4312, copyright 1984, side two (near the end).
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
- Based on: Eckankar transcript version in Harold's book and on the official Eckankar website. (Also ECKANKAR International Youth Conference, Las Vegas, Nevada, Saturday, April 21, 1984???)
How can that be? So after Harold and Doug looked at Paul's files and Harold discovered a "growing list", Doug says that Harold could know about all of Paul's sources? And Harold says: "[...] 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, [... .]" ???
Evidently "ECK writings on earth came from" somehow changed to "ECK writings to be done on earth".
Let's look at them another way.
"ECK writings on earth came from"
"ECK writings to be done on earth".
The first version agrees with the audio and with Doug's quoting of Harold. The second version is based on what evidence exactly? And if the newest version was from a 1989 book then why doesn't Doug mention this when he writes about how harold ended his talk.