The Problem with Brad Steiger's Time-Line
The Messenger
Author: David Christopher Lane
Publisher: Alt.religion.eckankar
Publication date: 1996
Twitchell's Travels to India and the Problems with Steiger's
Time-line as given in IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
Brad Steiger, Twitchell's official biographer, writes in the famous
book, IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, that Paul first went to Paris, France at
the age of 15, just after he graduated high school. However, he had
to come abruptly home to attend the death of his mother, Effie. Paul
Twitchell then went back to Paris and then on to India.
Steiger says Twitchell was 16 when he was at Sudar Singh's ashram in
India.
Steiger further says that Twitchell spent over a year with him.
MISSION CONTROL: WE GOT A DATE-LINE PROBLEM.....
Here it comes:
1. "Wilson Gantt, dean of admissions and registrar, says the
school's records show Twitchell graduated from Tilghman High School
in Paducah in May 1931 and entered Murray that September. He
remained a full-time student until March of 1933." (Quoted from
Tipton's article on Twitchell).
Yet Twitchell claims in Steiger's book that he went to Paris after
high school and not onwards to college.
Indeed, even when he came back from Paris he didn't go on to college
but back again to France and then onwards to India for a year.
Yet the official high school and college records of Paul Twitchell
show that this time-line, as illustrated in IN MY SOUL I AM FREE,
DID NOT occur.
What this means is that Twitchell NEVER took a year off, as he
claims, between High School and College. Indeed, right after he went
to Murray school he attended another College and registered in 1933
at the recorded age of 22.
Thus, given Steiger's narrative, the supposed trip of Twitchell's to
Paris and India COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED as it is retold IN MY SOUL
I AM FREE.
Rather, we know that Twitchell did not graduate at 15 like he
claims, but much older (anywhere from 18 to 22).
We know further, given Twitchell's account, that he lied about his
claim of going to India between high school and college.
We also know that he did not go to India at the age of 15 or 16.
Remember that Twitchell's mother died in 1940, making Paul at least
27 if not 28 or older.
And in the midst of all this
we got SUDAR SINGH.
I think we should re-title IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
New title?
IN MY SOUL I AM BULL SHITTING!
P.S. What is the poor reseacher to do?
When you take Twitchell's narrative seriously it proves itself
contradictory and wrong.
But all of that does not matter, some may protest.
That this does not matter, I would argue, is the biggest problem
confronting Eckankar and its future.
:
eMail The Neural Surfer directly
at dl...@weber.ucsd.edu
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
KMerrymoon
The Problem With Brad Steiger's Time-line of Paul Twitchell
Author: David Christopher Lane
Publisher: Alt.religion.eckankar
Publication date: 1996
Twitchell's Travels to India and the Problems with Steiger's Time-line as given
in IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
Brad Steiger, Twitchell's official biographer, writes in the famous book, IN MY
SOUL I AM FREE, that Paul first went to Paris, France at the age of 15, just
after he graduated high school. However, he had to come abruptly home to attend
the death of his mother, Effie. Paul Twitchell then went back to Paris and then
on to India.
Steiger says Twitchell was 16 when he was at Sudar Singh's ashram in India.
Steiger further says that Twitchell spent over a year with him.
MISSION CONTROL: WE GOT A DATE-LINE PROBLEM.....
Here it comes:
1. "Wilson Gantt, dean of admissions and registrar, says the school's records
show Twitchell graduated from Tilghman High School in Paducah in May 1931 and
entered Murray that September. He remained a full-time student until March of
1933." (Quoted from Tipton's article on Twitchell).
DOUG:
Just to revisit an old story here, Wilson Gantt was not the dean of admissions
and registrar of Paul's High School. He was dean at Murray State. So his
records of Paul's stay at Murray are credible, but not necessarily those of
Paul's high school.
In fact, the 1936-1937 edition of the Kentucky Who's Who, shows Paul graduating
high school in 1928. It also shows Paul at Murray in 1931-33. The later part
agrees with Gantt, the first part doesn't.
I have a xerox copy of the page from the Kentucky Who's Who, but we've never
seen any documentation about Paul's high school records from Gantt. So, at best
we have two differing accounts.
DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
Yet Twitchell claims in Steiger's book that he went to Paris after high school
and not onwards to college.
Indeed, even when he came back from Paris he didn't go on to college but back
again to France and then onwards to India for a year.
Yet the official high school and college records of Paul Twitchell show that
this time-line, as illustrated in IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, DID NOT occur.
DOUG:
We have not seen any official high school records, so how can David claim this?
In fact the Kentucky Who's Who also makes another reference. It shows Paul
living in Paris, Kentucky in 1929. That was the year after Paul graduated high
school, just like the story in Brad Steiger's book. However, it is Kentucky not
France.
Why would Steiger mix the two up? According to David Lane, Steiger admits that
he changed the names and places in his book, and that such a practice was
common in biographies in those days.
DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
What this means is that Twitchell NEVER took a year off, as he claims, between
High School and College. Indeed, right after he went to Murray school he
attended another College and registered in 1933 at the recorded age of 22.
DOUG:
According to the Kentucky Who's Who, this is wrong. Paul in fact appears to
have taken 2-3 years off after high school before going to Murray.
The Who's Who does agree with David about Paul going to another school after
two years at Murray. It shows that Paul went to Western State Teacher's College
and graduated in 1935.
DAVID LANE CONTINUES:
Thus, given Steiger's narrative, the supposed trip of Twitchell's to Paris and
India COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED as it is retold IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
DOUG:
Based on the Kentucky Who's Who, this conclusion is wrong again.
DAVID LANE CONTINUES:
Rather, we know that Twitchell did not graduate at 15 like he claims, but much
older (anywhere from 18 to 22).
We know further, given Twitchell's account, that he lied about his claim of
going to India between high school and college.
We also know that he did not go to India at the age of 15 or 16.
DOUG:
It appears, from the Kentucky Who's Who, that Paul was 18 years old when he
graduated high school. So, David is right that Paul's age was inaccurate.
We know that Brad admitted to changing the names and places. We don't know
whether he intentionally changed the dates as well. We also don't know whether
India was a changed place, or whether Paul ever went to India in his youth.
These are open issues.
DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
Remember that Twitchell's mother died in 1940, making Paul at least 27 if not
28 or older.
DOUG:
David is refering here to a reference in Steiger's book that Paul returned home
from India upon notice of his mother's impending death. Clearly the timeline is
indeed messed up here, since this was long after Paul graduated from high
school, unless this was referring to an earlier illness that Paul's mother may
have had, since the Who's Who also shows that Paul did work at his own High
School, in Paducah, as a Track Coach after his stay in Paris, Kentucky.
DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
And in the midst of all this we got SUDAR SINGH.
I think we should re-title IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
New title?
IN MY SOUL I AM BULL SHITTING!
P.S. What is the poor reseacher to do?
When you take Twitchell's narrative seriously it proves itself contradictory
and wrong.
But all of that does not matter, some may protest.
That this does not matter, I would argue, is the biggest problem confronting
Eckankar and its future.
DOUG:
David's question about what is a poor researcher to do, is a good question.
First off, it helps to have solid facts before making a bunch of accusations.
The facts are still sketchy, but it appears that Steiger's account shows that
he did indeed change names and places and apparently some dates as well.
Steiger apparently thought that this was common practice with the writing of
biographies in those days, and in fact he seems to be right about this. I've
given some examples in the past to show this.
So, if this is the biggest problem that ECKANKAR is confronting, then I guess
it can't be doing that badly afterall.
Doug.
maha_...@my-deja.com
...and Twitchell OKed these changes, since it's true that Twitchell:
1) Chose Steiger as his offical biographer.
2) Endorsed IMSIAF as his offical biography.
3) Never issued any corrections to this biography.
This puts the onus on Twitchell.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
> What this means is that Twitchell NEVER took a year off, as he
claims, between
> High School and College. Indeed, right after he went to Murray school
he
> attended another College and registered in 1933 at the recorded age
of 22.
>
> DOUG:
> According to the Kentucky Who's Who, this is wrong. Paul in fact
appears to
> have taken 2-3 years off after high school before going to Murray.
>
> The Who's Who does agree with David about Paul going to another
school after
> two years at Murray. It shows that Paul went to Western State
Teacher's College
> and graduated in 1935.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUES:
> Thus, given Steiger's narrative, the supposed trip of Twitchell's to
Paris and
> India COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED as it is retold IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
>
> DOUG:
> Based on the Kentucky Who's Who, this conclusion is wrong again.
It says Paulji went to India and France? Really? That's really
something!
Whoops. It doesn't say that.
Try not leaping so far Doug.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUES:
> Rather, we know that Twitchell did not graduate at 15 like he claims,
but much
> older (anywhere from 18 to 22).
>
> We know further, given Twitchell's account, that he lied about his
claim of
> going to India between high school and college.
>
> We also know that he did not go to India at the age of 15 or 16.
>
> DOUG:
> It appears, from the Kentucky Who's Who, that Paul was 18 years old
when he
> graduated high school. So, David is right that Paul's age was
inaccurate.
>
> We know that Brad admitted to changing the names and places. We don't
know
> whether he intentionally changed the dates as well. We also don't
know whether
> India was a changed place, or whether Paul ever went to India in his
youth.
> These are open issues.
There's no evidence from Paulji's past that even suggests he went to
India or France during his youth.
Instead, we have Paulji's official bio that says he did.
Do you really think that Paulji went to India just as Steiger (i.e.
Paulji) says he did?
Why would anyone think that, when part of your argument is based on
Steiger -- enlisted by Paulji, of course -- liberally changing
Paulji's biographical data?
Face it Doug -- IMSIAF is a corrupted bio. And this corrupted bio was
ENDORSEd AND PROMOTED by Sri Paul as his official life story.
And Twitchell either authorized these changes, or provided incorrect
info to his official biographer.
Either way, where does the buck stop?
Paul Twitchell.
Gruendemann
all you have is the religion of david lane to live by, how much of this
precious single lifetime you've wasted being angry and bitter? (assuming
here that these guys have given up on reincarnation) What an encredible
waste that is. (personal observation only) Oh well..... maybe someday life
will offer new avenues and attitudes too. Who knows...... :-)
neural...@my-deja.com
Actually, it seems like you are the one wasting time reading things
that you think are useless.
Gruendemann
Gruendemann
question david. If you have no spiritual life which to focus on, and
presumably no concern as to an after life.... then why would you spend 23+
years on this one aspect? Perhaps this isn't so far fetched a question
considering you answered for Joe in the first place. You've spent more
than half of your precious life focusing on hate and discontent. Over half
your life on these same little stories, most of which you can't even show
documentation for.
neural...@my-deja.com
I don't hate you, Paul Twitchell, or Eckankar.
I actually have a deep fondness for Paul Twitchell.
As for what I have done for the past 23 years, Eckankar hasn't been my
focus.
I just type really really fast so I can multi-task a lot of things.
I just happen to have fun debating this stuff.
I certainly don't hate anybody here or in Eckankar.
I think it is all kinda of groovy, actually.
Frank H. Weeden
>
> I don't hate you, Paul Twitchell, or Eckankar.
>
> I actually have a deep fondness for Paul Twitchell.
>
> As for what I have done for the past 23 years, Eckankar hasn't been my
> focus.
>
> I just type really really fast so I can multi-task a lot of things.
>
> I just happen to have fun debating this stuff.
>
> I certainly don't hate anybody here or in Eckankar.
>
> I think it is all kinda of groovy, actually.
Well David, for what it's worth, you've actually been
more civil than a lot of others on this group. If nothing
else, thank you for that. Hey, if you think surfing is
a blast, check THIS out! I plan on owning one of these
beautiful machines by the time April rolls around:
Check out the photos, especially. This guy and his
shop are within driving distance from my house. :-)
Frank
neural...@my-deja.com
Frank H. Weeden
>
> > http://www.eagles-wing.com/
> >
> > Check out the photos, especially. This guy and his
> > shop are within driving distance from my house. :-)
> >
> > Frank
> >
>
> Looks AMAZING!!!
>
> But I would be way too scared to try it.
Nothing could be safer: You always have an inflated
parachute above you. Even if the motor totally goes
tits up, you simply float to the ground. :-)
Frank
Sharo...@playful.com
Here it comes:
New title?
Doug.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Doug, I think every eckist knows that Twitch lied his way into the Kentucky
Who's Who with a bunch of phony information. Harold admits that. It
amazes me that you're citing this as a credible source.
Secondly, considering how Twitch had this little "thing" about his words
and "work" being presented accurately, I think it's highly unlikely that
you can blame any "inaccuracies" in IMSIAF on Brad Steiger. For example,
I believe it's in "Difficulties" that Twitch wrote something about not
wanting to sell a book to Hollywood because he'd lose control over it, or
something. Which I think is a big lie, considering his whining & jealousy
about others who were making more money & getting better agent
representation than he was.
Now, there's a big difference between changing the name of the home town to
the fictional China Point for "privacy", and implying that the "Paris"
Twitch visited was Paris France.
Twitch conned Steiger, too. Unless maybe Steiger, like Twitch, wasn't very
ethical and only out for the bucks too.
Sharon
--
Center for Twitchellian Plagiarism:
http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/center.htm
http://members.delphi.com/sharon2000
http://www.iguild.com/homes/eckcult
Gruendemann
reasons. Thank you for the in depth look at what motivates you as a being,
Sharon. :-)
KMerrymoon
>Doug, I think every eckist knows that Twitch lied his way into the Kentucky
>Who's Who with a bunch of phony information. Harold admits that. It
>amazes me that you're citing this as a credible source.
DOUG:
Sharon, I didn't bring up this old point again, but I guess I should have.
Although Harold thought that this Who's Who was the result of Paul's great
ability to promote things, including himself, I disagree with Harold on this.
First, because the birth date in the Who's Who bio is off by one year. Now you
might think that's no big deal, but in this case it would have made Paul one
year OLDER, and I don't think even David could imagine Paul doing that! <G>
Secondly, the Paducah Library files were literally stuffed with news articles
about Paul's activities as a Recreation Activities Director, Track Coach for
high schools and colleges, and a number of other similar positions that he
filled. Paul was quite good at getting events started, including some great
community meetings for sports, from basketball and baseball, to wrestling and
boxing, swimming and tennis, even events for women and those of other races.
His teams won some tournaments, and some of his team members got a lot of
attention, thanks to Paul.
This list ran to over 100 articles, all before the Who's Who bio was written.
It would seem odd, rather, that the Who's Who would NOT run a very short bio on
Paul.
To further prove this point, when I brought this up before, I showed another
bio from the same page of a farmer who sold wholesale lifestock. That was all
the farmer had ever done, yet they still had a bio on him in the Who's Who.
That's why I think the info is credible. And the fact that the wrong birth date
was one commonly quoted from the family bible also suggests that it was
independent of Paul.
SHARON CONTINUED:
>Secondly, considering how Twitch had this little "thing" about his words
>and "work" being presented accurately, I think it's highly unlikely that
>you can blame any "inaccuracies" in IMSIAF on Brad Steiger. For example,
>I believe it's in "Difficulties" that Twitch wrote something about not
>wanting to sell a book to Hollywood because he'd lose control over it, or
>something. Which I think is a big lie, considering his whining & jealousy
>about others who were making more money & getting better agent
>representation than he was.
DOUG:
First about blaming Brad Steiger - I have never blamed Brad for anything. He
was the author, but if it was something that Paul felt was important to
correct, Paul certainly had every chance to do so. So, I see them in it
together.
I was only referring to Brad, since he was the one who wrote the biographical
sections of that book.
As for the story about selling a book to Hollywood, well Paul just never fits
our stereotypes, it seems. It so happens that Paul related this same story in a
letter he wrote back long before be started ECKANKAR. I remember reading it in
his files.
There were also records of his poem, The Lamp, becoming recorded as a song,
more than once, and becoming quite popular. There were references to hundreds
of his writings that were published, in the Paducah files, and a number of them
were full length books. Getting someone interested in Hollywood is not that
rare. Hollywood agents pick up options on books all the time. It is much less
common for them to actually make it into film. A lot of them just don't ever
make it.
So, I see nothing odd or extravagant about his statements.
As for Paul complaining about other writers getting better representation, that
is simply another case of misinterpretation. As far as I can tell this comes
from one of Paul's talks where he was casually talking about Lobsang Rampa
(sp?) who wrote some popular spiritual fiction books. Paul was in a whimsical
mood when he was talking about this, and was half chuckling when he pointed out
how successful the bloke had been with his books.
Paul's point, by the way for bringing this up, was simply to show how important
distribution and promotion were. That was what made the Rampa books so
successfull, and that was Paul's point - that you could write a great book but
if it didn't get the right promotion and distribution it would never make a
success.
SHARON CONTINUED:
>Now, there's a big difference between changing the name of the home town to
>the fictional China Point for "privacy", and implying that the "Paris"
>Twitch visited was Paris France.
>
>Twitch conned Steiger, too. Unless maybe Steiger, like Twitch, wasn't very
>ethical and only out for the bucks too.
DOUG:
If you knew them very well, I think you'd see that they were two birds of a
feather. Brad's books ran down the same line of romanticizing his subjects in
many of his books. It was not uncommon back then, and they were both promoters
and experienced writers who knew how to make headlines.
They were also both interested in building a long term career in the field of
spiritual studieds and psychic phenomenon, and had both studied those fields
very well.
As for China Point being so much different than Paris, well I think a lot of
the reason it seems that way is because we've become used to the idea of China
Point really being Paducah. However, when ECKists first learned this, it was
startling to them and some were confused why anyone would change the name like
that. Later, it became no big deal.
Of course, referring to France rather than Kentucky clearly makes the event
seem more exotic than the name China Point, which no one knows.
Sharo...@playful.com
> SHARON WROTE:
> >Doug, I think every eckist knows that Twitch lied his way into the
> >Kentucky Who's Who with a bunch of phony information. Harold admits
> >that. It amazes me that you're citing this as a credible source.
>
> DOUG:
> Sharon, I didn't bring up this old point again, but I guess I should
> have. Although Harold thought that this Who's Who was the result of
> Paul's great ability to promote things, including himself, I disagree
> with Harold on this. First, because the birth date in the Who's Who bio
> is off by one year. Now you might think that's no big deal, but in this
> case it would have made Paul one year OLDER, and I don't think even David
> could imagine Paul doing that! <G>
>
> Secondly, the Paducah Library files were literally stuffed with news
Doug, let me just lay things on the line here.
Back in
the Eck Gestapo, well...I was a good little eckie (as you yourself said)
and I didn't say anything, but I was *revulsed* by things there...including
your cute little comment about "taking care of Lurk" here.
Everything you write is basic bullshit. I think it's cute, though, how you
try to appear so "nice" and sanctimonious, but...you let things pop out.
to put it a bit more simply, you're a big phony and you can't always pull
it off.
Your "book" is a hoot.
And...the Paducah library files aren't a good source, since Gail made a
special trip there to make sure it appeared that Twitchler looked good.
Just as he conned his way into the Who's Who.
Now...hey, I skim through your bullshit.
What would REALLY interest me, Dougie-Pooh...IS THOSE UNPUBLISHED WORKS OF
TWITCHELL. You phony lying scumbag son-of-a-bitch, you know *EXACTLY* what
I'm talking about. And so does your good buddy, old "masterly power flow"
Weird Fucking Asshole Harold!!!!
Now...go HU yourself into zombiehood. Tell me...when you were one of
Darwin's little ecksheep, did you go jerk off in the bushes just like he
did?
SHARON
Kal_Spawn
Center told me that one of the official words on Darwin was that
secretly (but the org. found out later) Darwin was a sexual predator
and that female chelas came forward with testimonies that Darwin would
visit them in his etherial body to watch them shower. Of course years
later when I learned of Eckankar's bullshit lies about Darwin, I
dismissed the story altogether. In civil case # 89-1150-JU It is proven
that Darwin never stole 2.6 million or mismanaged the org. The stories
about Darwin is Harold/Pete and organization's propaganda against
Darwin. I dare any One of you Eckists to find out for yourself. The
case is archived in the U.S. District court in Portland Oregon. What I
know of Eckankar can be proven. Where the fuck is your proof, eckies?
All you guys have is organization spin and "official" accounts of the
Gross/Klemp fiasco!!!
************************************************************************
********Eckankar lies !!!***********************************************
************************************************************************
*************************
In article <20010130013238.061$b...@newsreader.com>,
Gruendemann
If you fall for lies, then how can you be so appalled by lies? Interesting
conundrum, hey? But of all the things you chose to bring to this newsgroup
is your protest about Darwin. Have you managed to get a copy of this court
document as of yet? You did tell everyone here that you were going to get
a copy of this court case and post it here for all to see! Was that just a
lot of hot air from a hot head? More lies? Wishful thinking? Oh well....
its your mystery... have fun fulfilling it! :-)
Baraka Bashad! :-)
len
Len
<Sharo...@playful.com> wrote in message
news:20010130013238.061$b...@newsreader.com...
Michael
Love
Michael
"len" <sv77...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vuLd6.78450$Wq1.33...@nnrp5-w.sbc.net...
DAVIDP111
many of them and discovering basically nothing in In My Soul was true I called
Mike Noe at the Eckankar Office...He demanded all the files I got from the
family be turned over to Eckankar immediately and that I not talk of what I
discovered to anyone.
Very shaken I did speak about it to some Eck friends, one was Helen Frye.
Helen was in great doubts about Eckankar herself. She noticed that 5 of 7 (or
8) recent $100,000. checks donated to Eckankar were deposited into Darwin's
account,not Eckankar's.
Helen had me get in contact with Brad Steiger himself. He lived in Scottsdale,
Az at the time. Three of us were invited to Steiger's house where he had still
over 100 hours of taped conversation with Paul. Brad played about 3 hours of
these tapes for us. Paul was creating his history outloud, on tape..sounding
out different events that might sound good. Steiger kept saying outloud to us,
"Why did Paul say that, he knew I was taping all this?"
Mike Noe was furious about my contact with the Twitchell family. He contacted
Steiger for the tapes. I don't know what ever happened. Darwin was upset with
Steiger because Brad was to do Darwin's life story but changed his mind
because, as Steiger told me, "there is nothing there." Later Helen Frye was to
do his story.
Gail Twitchell, last I heard from her in 1981 stated that "Paul made up the
whole thing."
I suggest to those with questions ask those that have the info...namely, get
copies of the tapes from Brad Steiger and hear for yourself in Paul's own voice
how he made up his life story. Also ask Gail. She was very open with those of
us that contacted her for answers.
I am not sure if many of the old Twitchell's are alive. Camille died in 1980 I
know. Twitchell's nephew, John,lived in Evansville, Ind. he had a stack of
Twitchell's manuscripts that he got from his mother, Mattie.
Michael
Maybe if you offered something credible, like who you are, and have someone
back this up, then there may be someone who will look at what you say
seriously.
So far it looks like 'someone' is making something up, the only question is
'who"?
Love
Michael
"DAVIDP111" <davi...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010208150647...@ng-fa1.aol.com...
Ken
"DAVIDP111" <davi...@aol.comnospam> wrote ...
Get a real name, document what you say above, and then MAYBE
someone should take some of what you say somewhat seriously.
Ken
arel...@home.com
DAVIDP111 wrote:
>
> I spent the Summer of 1979 with Twitchell's family. After spending time with
> many of them and discovering basically nothing in In My Soul was true I called
> Mike Noe at the Eckankar Office...He demanded all the files I got from the
> family be turned over to Eckankar immediately and that I not talk of what I
> discovered to anyone.
I wonder if Doug Marman still wants to claim there was no cover up!
>
> Very shaken I did speak about it to some Eck friends, one was Helen Frye.
> Helen was in great doubts about Eckankar herself. She noticed that 5 of 7 (or
> 8) recent $100,000. checks donated to Eckankar were deposited into Darwin's
> account,not Eckankar's.
>
> Helen had me get in contact with Brad Steiger himself. He lived in Scottsdale,
> Az at the time. Three of us were invited to Steiger's house where he had still
> over 100 hours of taped conversation with Paul. Brad played about 3 hours of
> these tapes for us. Paul was creating his history outloud, on tape..sounding
> out different events that might sound good. Steiger kept saying outloud to us,
> "Why did Paul say that, he knew I was taping all this?"
Thanks for the honestly here.
Many people have been making the claim that Paul had told tall tales.
Your story here supports this notion.
>
> Mike Noe was furious about my contact with the Twitchell family. He contacted
> Steiger for the tapes. I don't know what ever happened. Darwin was upset with
> Steiger because Brad was to do Darwin's life story but changed his mind
> because, as Steiger told me, "there is nothing there." Later Helen Frye was to
> do his story.
>
> Gail Twitchell, last I heard from her in 1981 stated that "Paul made up the
> whole thing."
Are you the person Lane quotes in his book as having heard Gail say
this? Interesting.
Lurk
arel...@home.com
That's an interesting response because Lane documents his assertions and
eckists still don't take what he says seriously. So what you are
suggesting is an exercise in futility, eh?
Lurk
Rich
have become more skeptical of any of this. So many of his allegations
have proven out to be not true at all. Perceptions and context vary so
widely that such stories as yours(who are you?) are likely more of the
same.
Spin your yarns all you like, but you will find little support from
those here that were there too, unless you provide some real substance.
--
o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DAVIDP111
to swallow anything that is mystic and untouchable yet refuse to listen to
something so simple as human faults.
As for offering REAL people and REAL proof. I did suggest those that want some
answers (I suspect many that are struggling with Eckankar's past DON'T want to
really know!) to contact Brad Steiger themselves and ask to hear the
tapes...Listen for yourself... I am not a library. Do your own investigation
if you really are interested. I sat in his home with Charlie Wallace and
Carmela Primavera (Powell). Not sure where Carmela is now but I am sure
Charlie is around somewhere.
Gail Twitchell Gross--etc was in the Palm Springs area last I spoke with her.
Does someone know where she is now? Maybe some of the members of this list
would like to talk to her themselves... I know Charlie Wallace has a tape
telephone conversation with her talking about Paul and the beginning of
Eckankar. Anyone know where Charlie is?
About Paul and Kirpal Singh...it was COMMON knowledge when I was new in Eck
that Kirpal and Rebazar was one and the same. It was discussed at our Sat
Sangs. We just accepted it figuring Paul had his reasons. The High Initiate
of the area when I was new in Eck had known Paul when he was with Kirpal in the
1950's. That is where they met as she too was with Kirpal. Her name is
Vandella Walker of Cincinnati, Ohio...Is she still alive? Call her up and ask
her some questions. Other Eckists of my early days that knew all this include
Bertha Sweeney and Betty Junk...are they still around? Talk with them.
Mary Hald of Middletown, Ohio printed up fake press releases for Paul in her
own print shop...on news print with fake news headlines on the back so when
they were clipped looked like real news articles about Paul's miracles he
performed. I seen them myself. Is Mary or her husband, Charlie still around?
Call them on the phone..Her grandson was going to take over Hald Press in that
city. His name is Tad. Check it out yourself.
Pat Yarbourgh,Vandilla and Chet Tuttle said Paul told them that Dr. Louis Booth
was to be the next Eck master. Both Pat and Vandella were 7th initiates at the
time. Last I heard Pat moved to the San Francisco area. Look them up and ask
them yourself.
As for the checks of Helen Frye's that Darwin cashed, ask Charlie Wallace or
better yet the estate that she left everything too. I believe her family is in
Tennessee. Check records at the courthouse in Prescott, Az...esp with the
court case of Eckankar vs the estate of Helen Frye. Paul Schoolcraft and
Darwin Gross ON TAPE offered an x-eckist $50,000. to lie under oath so Eckankar
would get the rest of her estate...was in the Phoenix newspaper..October, 1980.
Call the paper and get copies...check it out for yourself.
I know what I went through in the early days...I have come to my terms with it
all. Seems like so much petty arguments here over books and manuscripts...how
about getting out and ask questions from those that can do something about it
all... Ask Gail, Brad, Vandilla, Pat, Mary, Mike Noe. Chet Tuttle (is he still
alive?).
If this is REALLY important to you get off the computer and make some phone
calls and talk to those who were there. Talk to them NOW while those that were
there are still around.
I keep hearing the word "rumor." I am just wondering those that question are
they really seeking some answers or just enjoy the chat on line? I know SOME
of these people are still around. How about checking them out and ask what
they have to offer.
I gave a list of names that have come to mind, I am sure there are others. Up
to you if you want to take it farther or not. Take some initiative yourself
and ask these people, and others who were around questions yourself.
Gruendemann
you and ask you rather than take a usenet post as fact? :-|
Ken
<arel...@home.com> wrote ...
>
> That's an interesting response because Lane documents his assertions and
> eckists still don't take what he says seriously. So what you are
> suggesting is an exercise in futility, eh?
I can't speak for "Eckists" who don't take Lane seriously as I take David
VERY seriously. I think David is a very serious person who demands
seriosity at every level possible whenever possible.
I believe every single fact that David documents. It's his wild-eyed
conclusions I have trouble with from time to time <g>.
Ken
Dave
"Ken" <ken.st...@att.net> wrote:
> I can't speak for "Eckists" who don't take Lane seriously as I take
David
> VERY seriously. I think David is a very serious person who demands
> seriosity at every level possible whenever possible.
Ken, you seem so 'seriousity' in this post. <G> Is Dealing with the
good Doctor's 'seriousity' a reflection of very verbal verbosity?
Or notity?
ECK love,
Dave
--
http://www.eckankar.org/freeBook.html
Rich
> I am suprised of the response to my posting. Funny how easily it is for some
> to swallow anything that is mystic and untouchable yet refuse to listen to
> something so simple as human faults.
I am in neither of those categories. Sure Paul had his foibles. It's
just that my experience has shown me that opinions and others
experiences have too often proven to be very deceptive and contrary to
my own.
> As for offering REAL people and REAL proof. I did suggest those that want some
> answers (I suspect many that are struggling with Eckankar's past DON'T want to
> really know!)
I'd like to know, as I believe most of the Eckists who post to this NG
would, but it isn't that important to me.
<SNIP what is all hearsay about and from people that I, and apparently
no one in this NG knows how to contact>
> About Paul and Kirpal Singh...it was COMMON knowledge when I was new in Eck
> that Kirpal and Rebazar was one and the same.
At that time it was apparent to me that Paul had changed Kirpal's name,
but not that Rebazar did not also exist and his name was just
substituted instead.
Have you read Doug's book?
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/DialogIntro.htm
It might give you an expanded understanding about this and many of the
other issues you are bringing up. Much of what what was 'common
knowledge' is shown in this E-Book to have been misinformation or
opinions derived from lack of information. Doug brings out a lot of new
facts that significantly change previously accepted viewpoints.
"Dialogs" is an eye opener to those that are open to objectively viewing
this history.
> It was discussed at our Sat
> Sangs. We just accepted it figuring Paul had his reasons. The High Initiate
> of the area when I was new in Eck had known Paul when he was with Kirpal in the
> 1950's. That is where they met as she too was with Kirpal.
I met Kirpal too and found that although I saw the spark of mastership
was there in his eyes, Paul was offering something that was more in
alignment with my spiritual inclinations.
<SNIP more hearsay(some of it which certainly has some truth in it) and
more people that I wouldn't know how to contact if I wanted to.>
> I know what I went through in the early days...I have come to my terms with it
> all. Seems like so much petty arguments here over books and manuscripts...
I agree. What is it in you that brings you here to make allegations
about such "petty" things, be they true or not?
> how
> about getting out and ask questions from those that can do something about it...
Do what? "It" is history, shrouded by time and perception, that has no
effect on the spiritual principals taught in Eckankar today. Nor does
it change my knowledge of my Self as Soul. Sure it's a curiosity about
illusions but does it change your perceptions of Spirit, Soul, God?
<SNIP more names and suggestions that I do the work to prove your
perceptions>
> I keep hearing the word "rumor." I am just wondering those that question are
> they really seeking some answers or just enjoy the chat on line?
I'd say both. I am just wondering why you are making these questionable
statements in the first place?
KMerrymoon
I spent the Summer of 1979 with Twitchell's family. After spending time with
many of them and discovering basically nothing in In My Soul was true I called
Mike Noe at the Eckankar Office...He demanded all the files I got from the
family be turned over to Eckankar immediately and that I not talk of what I
discovered to anyone.
DOUG:
DavidP, I would love to hear some more about your conversations with Camille.
You once said that you had taken notes from your meetings with her. Do you
still have them? Would you be willing to share from those notes?
As for your run in with Mike Noe, I've had my own as well. Sometimes the only
thing you can do with those who think they know what they are doing is to
simply walk away and leave them with their own creations.
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
Very shaken I did speak about it to some Eck friends, one was Helen Frye.
Helen was in great doubts about Eckankar herself. She noticed that 5 of 7 (or
8) recent $100,000. checks donated to Eckankar were deposited into Darwin's
account,not Eckankar's.
DOUG:
I knew Helen as well, although from a couple years earlier than the time frame
you are talking about. She was a strikingly unique person. A number of people
who worked closely with Darwin about this time were having some doubts.
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
Helen had me get in contact with Brad Steiger himself. He lived in Scottsdale,
Az at the time. Three of us were invited to Steiger's house where he had still
over 100 hours of taped conversation with Paul. Brad played about 3 hours of
these tapes for us. Paul was creating his history outloud, on tape..sounding
out different events that might sound good. Steiger kept saying outloud to us,
"Why did Paul say that, he knew I was taping all this?"
DOUG:
I think that is a very good question that Brad is asking. In other words, Paul
didn't seem to see anything wrong with what he was doing. He wasn't trying to
hide anything.
I'd love to hear those tapes. Brad also claims that in some of those tapes Paul
described how he saw the future of ECKANKAR.
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
Mike Noe was furious about my contact with the Twitchell family. He contacted
Steiger for the tapes. I don't know what ever happened. Darwin was upset with
Steiger because Brad was to do Darwin's life story but changed his mind
because, as Steiger told me, "there is nothing there." Later Helen Frye was to
do his story.
DOUG:
Darwin was very upset about the whole thing. From what I heard, Brad only
agreed to write the book on Darwin because he wanted permission to write a
second book on Paul, and draw from the tapes he had from Paul. Brad especially
wanted to get into Paul's vision of the future of ECKANKAR. I hope Brad is able
to share those thoughts some day.
However, Brad did write a draft of a book about Darwin. I don't know if he
finished it or not, but when Darwin read it he did not like it at all. I think
Brad wrote the best that he knew, but was never impressed with Darwin. There
were some strong feelings expressed over this, since I believe Brad had been
paid some money for the book and had signed a contract.
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
Gail Twitchell, last I heard from her in 1981 stated that "Paul made up the
whole thing."
DOUG:
Did she say this to you in those exact words, or are you remembering something
that David Lane said about this? I'm just curious, because the last time you
said this you indicated this was something you got from David Lane.
If Gail felt this way, why hasn't she been willing to make such a statement
publicly? Also, why did she record a private tape in which she wanted to
describe her personal spiritual experiences with Paul surrounding his death?
And why did she ask others to send in their personal experiences as well, so
that these stories could be preserved for posterity.
Those were reflections of Gail's sentiments at the time of Paul's death. They
don't seem to be indicators of someone who believed it was all made up.
Perhaps she changed her mind?
KMerrymoon
I am suprised of the response to my posting. Funny how easily it is for some
to swallow anything that is mystic and untouchable yet refuse to listen to
something so simple as human faults.
As for offering REAL people and REAL proof. I did suggest those that want some
answers (I suspect many that are struggling with Eckankar's past DON'T want to
really know!) to contact Brad Steiger themselves and ask to hear the
tapes...Listen for yourself... I am not a library. Do your own investigation
if you really are interested. I sat in his home with Charlie Wallace and
Carmela Primavera (Powell). Not sure where Carmela is now but I am sure
Charlie is around somewhere.
Gail Twitchell Gross--etc was in the Palm Springs area last I spoke with her.
Does someone know where she is now? Maybe some of the members of this list
would like to talk to her themselves... I know Charlie Wallace has a tape
telephone conversation with her talking about Paul and the beginning of
Eckankar. Anyone know where Charlie is?
DOUG:
You know, reading what you've written here, DavidP, I can see how differently
we approach these things.
Looking back, it's strange that I knew all these same people, but for me it was
almost accidental, since I never really sought out trying to meet these Friends
of ECK.
I've met Brad Steiger a few times, but don't know him very well at all. I
thought he was a good speaker and an interesting writer.
I miss Gail and think of her from time to time, and would love to sit down and
talk with her again.
I remember Charly well from the time I spent in Sedona.
But I never thought of even one of them as an authority on ECKANKAR. Strange. I
trusted my own inner experiences and lessons learned. Either I was able to
verify the validity of the Spiritual Path of ECK, or I wasn't.
I guess I realize, after reading your comments, how little I really cared about
the outer issues. I've never made the effort to track down and try to spend
time with these people because, for one, I always feel that I will be an
intrusion in their lives, and secondly I would only do so because I like these
people.
I always love to hear stories about Paul, so I am always a willing listener and
would encourage anyone to share from their own memories or experiences.
However, I always think of these things as stories, not some kind of historical
record.
But that's just me, I guess.
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
About Paul and Kirpal Singh...it was COMMON knowledge when I was new in Eck
that Kirpal and Rebazar was one and the same. It was discussed at our
SatSangs. We just accepted it figuring Paul had his reasons. The High
Initiate of the area when I was new in Eck had known Paul when he was with
Kirpal in the 1950's. That is where they met as she too was with Kirpal. Her
name is Vandella Walker of Cincinnati, Ohio...Is she still alive? Call her up
and ask her some questions. Other Eckists of my early days that knew all this
include Bertha Sweeney and Betty Junk...are they still around? Talk with them.
DOUG:
I think the relationship between Kirpal and Paul is well known to this group.
We've discussed it at length. In fact, your point about how many knew about
this in the early days is exactly one of the points that I've made. That's why
I find David Lane's accusations that Paul was trying to cover this up is fairly
ridiculous.
I agree that Paul stopped referring to Kirpal after his relationship with
Kirpal fell apart, but that's a far cry from denying it or trying to convince
others that he never studied with Kirpal.
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
Mary Hald of Middletown, Ohio printed up fake press releases for Paul in her
own print shop...on news print with fake news headlines on the back so when
they were clipped looked like real news articles about Paul's miracles he
performed. I seen them myself. Is Mary or her husband, Charlie still around?
Call them on the phone..Her grandson was going to take over Hald Press in that
city. His name is Tad. Check it out yourself.
DOUG:
I think the last time you mentioned this you didn't realize they were fake
headlines at the time this was going on, but assumed they were real stories
that were just being laid out for reproduction.
What is it that convinced you this was not true? How long after these events
really happened did you begin to think differently about them?
DAVIDP111:
Pat Yarbourgh,Vandilla and Chet Tuttle said Paul told them that Dr. Louis Booth
was to be the next Eck master. Both Pat and Vandella were 7th initiates at the
time. Last I heard Pat moved to the San Francisco area. Look them up and ask
them yourself.
DOUG:
I think that at one time Paul did think Dr. Bluth might be his successor.
However, at the Fourth World Wide, Paul made it quite clear that the one They
(meaning the ECK Masters) had been training didn't work out. That was when Paul
realized he was going to have to look to the youth in ECK, which is when he
started the Youth Program. I cover a lot of these things in my book, with
quotes from Paul to show his actual words.
In Gail's private tape recording of the events surrounding Paul's death, she
stated quite clearly that Paul and specifically mentioned that Dr. Bluth could
not be selected as his successor. She gave some of Paul's reasons for this as
well.
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
As for the checks of Helen Frye's that Darwin cashed, ask Charlie Wallace or
better yet the estate that she left everything too. I believe her family is in
Tennessee. Check records at the courthouse in Prescott, Az...esp with the
court case of Eckankar vs the estate of Helen Frye. Paul Schoolcraft and
Darwin Gross ON TAPE offered an x-eckist $50,000. to lie under oath so Eckankar
would get the rest of her estate...was in the Phoenix newspaper..October,
1980. Call the paper and get copies...check it out for yourself.
DOUG:
Fascinating stories. I can certainly believe they might be true. Darwin was
making all kinds of mistakes at that time.
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
I know what I went through in the early days...I have come to my terms with it
all. Seems like so much petty arguments here over books and manuscripts...how
about getting out and ask questions from those that can do something about it
all... Ask Gail, Brad, Vandilla, Pat, Mary, Mike Noe. Chet Tuttle (is he still
alive?).
DOUG:
I always enjoy hearing these stories from the old days, but they hardly
describe any source of truth for me. They are just stories.
I always found it amazing how many people had such different experiences in
ECKANKAR. But those were their experiences. My experiences were different. Why
should I use their experiences to define my reality?
I don't think their experiences even define anything of historical value about
ECKANKAR, since there were so many varied and different experiences.
I remember Harold mentioning to me once that when he spoke with some of the old
timers about their memories of Paul, that they all saw Paul so differently.
Sometimes it seemed hard to imagine they were describing the same person.
Some saw Paul as their friend and that he loved to gab. Others found him always
philosophical and distant. Others were impressed with his kindness, some with
his incredible drive to bring out the teachings of ECKANKAR.
They all did describe one thing in common, according to Harold. They described
Paul as someone who seemed to care a great deal for people, those who were
studying ECKANKAR in particular. He seemed to always keep a watchful and caring
eye out for ECKists. They always described the feeling of love they felt from
Paul.
But I guess I've wandered from my point, which is that everyone's experiences
are different. None can be used to define the reality for everyone else. That's
exactly one of the things I've always enjoyed about this Path.
Doug.
Michael
"Dave" <ysa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:961qqi$plj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <wjZg6.2253$Pg3.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Ken" <ken.st...@att.net> wrote:
> > I can't speak for "Eckists" who don't take Lane seriously as I take
> David
> > VERY seriously. I think David is a very serious person who demands
> > seriosity at every level possible whenever possible.
>
> Ken, you seem so 'seriousity' in this post. <G> Is Dealing with the
> good Doctor's 'seriousity' a reflection of very verbal verbosity?
>
> Or notity?
>
It is only when he gets sinserious that we really have to worry, Dave.
But I too take David's document seriously... It is just that I can't stop
laughing at the conclusions he creates from them!! <G>
Love
Michael
Dave
"Michael" <wallyboy@.iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> It is only when he gets sinserious that we really have to worry, Dave.
>
> But I too take David's document seriously... It is just that I can't
stop
> laughing at the conclusions he creates from them!! <G>
>
> Love
>
> Michael
Very True Michael. An exagertation/lie/misrepresentation repeated often
enough becomes the truth for so many as history can teach us. In that
way, Doug's writings are valuable. In order to understand more about
ourselves and God, we need to transcend the human consciousness into
the spiritual consciousness. That transcendance can occur when fear is
replaced by love. So responding to those who create fears in others is
a valuable thing especially since many that do respond to those who try
to create fears and doubts in others, seem able to do this with
detachment. To their credit, I might add.
Thats as 'Seriosity' as I can get about the Good
Doctors 'sinseriosity.' <G>
ECK Love,
arel...@home.com
Dave wrote:
>
> In article <3a85...@news.iprimus.com.au>,
> "Michael" <wallyboy@.iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> > It is only when he gets sinserious that we really have to worry, Dave.
> >
> > But I too take David's document seriously... It is just that I can't
> stop
> > laughing at the conclusions he creates from them!! <G>
> >
> > Love
> >
> > Michael
>
> Very True Michael. An exagertation/lie/misrepresentation repeated often
> enough becomes the truth for so many as history can teach us.
I believe you are attempting to refer to Lane here but it jumps out at
me how this statements seems to apply more to Paul and his religion.
In that
> way, Doug's writings are valuable. In order to understand more about
> ourselves and God, we need to transcend the human consciousness into
> the spiritual consciousness. That transcendance can occur when fear is
> replaced by love.
Love never replaces fear. There is fear and there is love.
So responding to those who create fears in others is
> a valuable thing especially since many that do respond to those who try
> to create fears and doubts in others, seem able to do this with
> detachment. To their credit, I might add.
So you would agree that responding to Paul's fear laden statments in the
Shariyat and other works is valuable thing? I know you want to be
consistent, eh?
Lurk
Dave
"arel...@home.com" <arel...@home.com> wrote:
<snip> Lurk's POV which I mostly disagree with.
> Love never replaces fear. There is fear and there is love.
You indicate a Sort of a black/white, "good"/"bad" POV. To each his/her
own.
<snip> More of Lurk's POV which I mostly disagree with.
>I know you want to be
> consistent, eh?
>
> Lurk
Part of being consistent, to me, is applying a mindset or a
consciousness and or a behavior pattern to exact or similar
events/things rather than what I feel you often do when you try to
apply a mindset or a state of consciousness and or behavior pattern to
two or more unlike events/things. We will probably never agree on the
topic of ECKANKAR or any type of religious subject matter this
lifetime. Which is fine and 'dandy' also! <G>
ECK Love,
Dave
Michael
> In article <3A8567B5...@home.com>,
> "arel...@home.com" <arel...@home.com> wrote:
>
> <snip> Lurk's POV which I mostly disagree with.
>
> > Love never replaces fear. There is fear and there is love.
>
> You indicate a Sort of a black/white, "good"/"bad" POV. To each his/her
> own.
>
> <snip> More of Lurk's POV which I mostly disagree with.
>
> >I know you want to be
> > consistent, eh?
> >
> > Lurk
>
> Part of being consistent, to me, is applying a mindset or a
> consciousness and or a behavior pattern to exact or similar
> events/things rather than what I feel you often do when you try to
> apply a mindset or a state of consciousness and or behavior pattern to
> two or more unlike events/things. We will probably never agree on the
> topic of ECKANKAR or any type of religious subject matter this
> lifetime. Which is fine and 'dandy' also! <G>
It keeps it simpler to remember this, hey?
I liked Doug's analogy of opening up the sail to catch the wind, not
stripping it down to see what fibre it is made from <G>
Love
Michael
neural...@my-deja.com
Well, if the fibre is corrupted it will sink and you won't be able to
sail.
Gruendemann
neural...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <3a85...@news.iprimus.com.au>,
> "Michael" <wallyboy@.iprimus.com.au> wrote:
<snipped>
SantimVah
things arse up Cheryl. This is no different. A professor huh? I hope my kids
never have a lecturer like him at college or pre-school for that matter.
"Jill and Jack went down the hill to throw away a bucket of beer." Like
hello? Is anyone really home there?
<vbg>
Peace and Love
Sean
"Gruendemann" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3A85F51F...@worldnet.att.net...
neural...@my-deja.com
Michael
<neural...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:964k3r$sle$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
That's exactly right... If the fibre in the sail is no good, the first storm
blows it out. The 'real' test is the experience we have, not the theory we
hold.
Obviously, you check out a boat before taking out into the ocean... that's
common sense. But catching the wind (Shades of Donovan!) means to stop
checking the details, and start sailing.
Love
Michael
Gruendemann
sense. Its a shortcoming of mine. LOL........
Gruendemann
:-| We did competency tests on graduating teachers over here.... and
seriously.... some of them couldn't pass 8th grade level testing. Can you
imagine, a teacher in a subject such as science, and they don't even know
the subject matter? We're now testing high school students to make sure
they can read... and hopefully understand what they've read before they
are allowed into college. :-D tah dah! But not to worry.... in our present
political climate, we'll soon be able to send our children to Catholic
Schools at tax payers expense! Maybe they'll learn science there. ;->
We like to think of david as an example of those who were passed to the
next level for social reasons... we didn't want to break their little
hearts. <vbg's>
arel...@home.com
I bet if they were telling positive stories of Paul this would be some
kind of historical record. <gg>
Of course Gail will denounce Bluth as the new master and invoke it as
Paul's wishes....that way she gets to maintain power. She needed another
wimpy male to prop up as eck master so she could still call the shots.
It appears Darwin eventually became that for her.
>
> DAVIDP111 WROTE:
> As for the checks of Helen Frye's that Darwin cashed, ask Charlie Wallace or
> better yet the estate that she left everything too. I believe her family is in
> Tennessee. Check records at the courthouse in Prescott, Az...esp with the
> court case of Eckankar vs the estate of Helen Frye. Paul Schoolcraft and
> Darwin Gross ON TAPE offered an x-eckist $50,000. to lie under oath so Eckankar
> would get the rest of her estate...was in the Phoenix newspaper..October,
> 1980. Call the paper and get copies...check it out for yourself.
>
> DOUG:
> Fascinating stories. I can certainly believe they might be true. Darwin was
> making all kinds of mistakes at that time.
>
> DAVIDP111 WROTE:
> I know what I went through in the early days...I have come to my terms with it
> all. Seems like so much petty arguments here over books and manuscripts...how
> about getting out and ask questions from those that can do something about it
> all... Ask Gail, Brad, Vandilla, Pat, Mary, Mike Noe. Chet Tuttle (is he still
> alive?).
>
> DOUG:
> I always enjoy hearing these stories from the old days, but they hardly
> describe any source of truth for me. They are just stories.
Kind of puts a kink in the armor of the modern days Myths, eh?
>
> I always found it amazing how many people had such different experiences in
> ECKANKAR. But those were their experiences. My experiences were different. Why
> should I use their experiences to define my reality?
Define your reality anyway you like, but if eckankar is made up as Gail
suggest, that is significant information to know, in my opinion and not
something you should keep from other people.
>
> I don't think their experiences even define anything of historical value about
> ECKANKAR, since there were so many varied and different experiences.
If the information these people provide is accurate, it is valuable from
a historical perspective.
Lurk
SantimVah
"Gruendemann" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3A869522...@worldnet.att.net...
> Well honey, I don't know about you.... but I like mine [metaphors] to at
SantimVah
>
> We like to think of david as an example of those who were passed to the
> next level for social reasons... we didn't want to break their little
> hearts. <vbg's>
>
LOL Now this makes sense. <vbg>
Peace and Love
Sean
Gruendemann
SantimVah
"Gruendemann" <gruen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3A8805B2...@worldnet.att.net...
Etznab
So ... David and Charlie were both there? They knew one another? David says that Charlie had a tape and also that Brad S. had tapes.
According to Marman, Steiger said there were no tapes. Also, Charlie Wallace seems to be missing (or doesn't want to comment)?
I somewhat doubt David and Charlie made up all of their stories as intentional lies. If Eckankar became angry (as David implied) then maybe David and Charlie were / are afraid?
Just wondering.
David and Charlie, I wonder if there is a way that you can prove your stories. I don't see how that is possible without evidence, because many people will just not believe you.
Etznab
Henosis Sage
RE: "According to Marman, Steiger said there were no tapes."
And Marman also said BEFORE that comment, that he had had DISCUSSIONS with Brad
personally years before where the TAPES were discussed that Brad had done with
Paul for Paul's bio in 1968.
The record of that is on a.r.e. and on the TEHA archive.
It was POST-Dialogues, when Marman called him again, and he reported that to
a.r.e. and in the TWT book.
Marman, the "genius" saw NOTHING unusual about this CHANGE of story from Brad
(or was it like many things, more matter of MARMAN"s atrocious ability to RECALL
accurately what was said and by whom and when and where?
Marman has changed so many stories about himself and what he said others had said,
and about Klemp, and Eckankar under Darwin, and the 1983 dramas, and HK's talks
and about Gail and Patti I have lost count 5 years ago, and no longer care.
The man is UNTRUSTWORTHY and totally UNRELIABLE as a witness, or as a scribe.
RE-WRITING HISTORY:101 award is three way winning TIE of the living
- Gail T, Brad S, and Douglas M.
None are TRUSTWORTHY, there "word" is worthless.
Henosis Sage
MARMAN CHERRY PICKED COMMENTS BY DAVID PARKER IN HIS TWT BOOK.
In another section he asserts that Parker wasn't RELIABLE, and that his stories did NOT make sense ....
AND SO WHAT DID MARMAN DO?
CUT OUT THE BITS HE DID NOT LIKE .. AND USED THE BITS HE DID LIKE.
This makes Marman a PROVEN LIAR yet again ... because Lying includes WITHHOLDING INFO as well as making shit up just because it "sounds believable"
and makes Twitchell and Eckankar LOOK BETTER.
AS Kirpal said about we are all born with a certain amount of ROPE ... one day
it will catch up with MARMAN as well.
Because Marman has LIED "made up shit" about Kirpal Singh and RS/Ruhani teachings that was NOT TRUE far more than Twitchell ever did.
VANITY is the "devils favourite sin" ....
Henosis Sage
I think this post by Marman, and another below I will reply to as a note, from
2001 should be BRONZED so they can be kept for all time as a warning for all HUmankind forevermore. :-)
IMHO these two posts by Doug present his M.O. of distraction and confusion PLUS
his clear mental incapacities and total lack of RESEARCH SKILLS and ever finding
anything himself by his own efforts.
SPIN and BULLSHIT:101 by Doug Marman.
The LAST thing Marman was ever been interested in is The WHOLE TRUTH of anything.
On Monday, 29 January 2001 08:28:24 UTC+11, KMerrymoon wrote:
> DAVID LANE WROTE MANY YEARS AGO:
> The Problem With Brad Steiger's Time-line of Paul Twitchell
>
> Author: David Christopher Lane
> Publisher: Alt.religion.eckankar
> Publication date: 1996
>
> Twitchell's Travels to India and the Problems with Steiger's Time-line as given
> in IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
>
> Brad Steiger, Twitchell's official biographer, writes in the famous book, IN MY
> SOUL I AM FREE, that Paul first went to Paris, France at the age of 15, just
> after he graduated high school. However, he had to come abruptly home to attend
> the death of his mother, Effie. Paul Twitchell then went back to Paris and then
> on to India.
>
> Steiger says Twitchell was 16 when he was at Sudar Singh's ashram in India.
>
> Steiger further says that Twitchell spent over a year with him.
>
> MISSION CONTROL: WE GOT A DATE-LINE PROBLEM.....
>
> Here it comes:
>
> 1. "Wilson Gantt, dean of admissions and registrar, says the school's records
> show Twitchell graduated from Tilghman High School in Paducah in May 1931 and
> entered Murray that September. He remained a full-time student until March of
> 1933." (Quoted from Tipton's article on Twitchell).
>
> DOUG:
> Just to revisit an old story here, Wilson Gantt was not the dean of admissions
> and registrar of Paul's High School. He was dean at Murray State. So his
> records of Paul's stay at Murray are credible, but not necessarily those of
> Paul's high school.
>
> In fact, the 1936-1937 edition of the Kentucky Who's Who, shows Paul graduating
> high school in 1928. It also shows Paul at Murray in 1931-33. The later part
> agrees with Gantt, the first part doesn't.
>
> I have a xerox copy of the page from the Kentucky Who's Who, but we've never
> seen any documentation about Paul's high school records from Gantt. So, at best
> we have two differing accounts.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
> Yet Twitchell claims in Steiger's book that he went to Paris after high school
> and not onwards to college.
>
> Indeed, even when he came back from Paris he didn't go on to college but back
> again to France and then onwards to India for a year.
>
> Yet the official high school and college records of Paul Twitchell show that
> this time-line, as illustrated in IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, DID NOT occur.
>
> DOUG:
> We have not seen any official high school records, so how can David claim this?
>
> In fact the Kentucky Who's Who also makes another reference. It shows Paul
> living in Paris, Kentucky in 1929. That was the year after Paul graduated high
> school, just like the story in Brad Steiger's book. However, it is Kentucky not
> France.
>
> Why would Steiger mix the two up? According to David Lane, Steiger admits that
> he changed the names and places in his book, and that such a practice was
> common in biographies in those days.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
> What this means is that Twitchell NEVER took a year off, as he claims, between
> High School and College. Indeed, right after he went to Murray school he
> attended another College and registered in 1933 at the recorded age of 22.
>
> DOUG:
> According to the Kentucky Who's Who, this is wrong. Paul in fact appears to
> have taken 2-3 years off after high school before going to Murray.
>
> The Who's Who does agree with David about Paul going to another school after
> two years at Murray. It shows that Paul went to Western State Teacher's College
> and graduated in 1935.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUES:
> Thus, given Steiger's narrative, the supposed trip of Twitchell's to Paris and
> India COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED as it is retold IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
>
> DOUG:
> Based on the Kentucky Who's Who, this conclusion is wrong again.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUES:
> Rather, we know that Twitchell did not graduate at 15 like he claims, but much
> older (anywhere from 18 to 22).
>
> We know further, given Twitchell's account, that he lied about his claim of
> going to India between high school and college.
>
> We also know that he did not go to India at the age of 15 or 16.
>
> DOUG:
> It appears, from the Kentucky Who's Who, that Paul was 18 years old when he
> graduated high school. So, David is right that Paul's age was inaccurate.
>
> We know that Brad admitted to changing the names and places. We don't know
> whether he intentionally changed the dates as well. We also don't know whether
> India was a changed place, or whether Paul ever went to India in his youth.
> These are open issues.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
> Remember that Twitchell's mother died in 1940, making Paul at least 27 if not
> 28 or older.
>
> DOUG:
> David is refering here to a reference in Steiger's book that Paul returned home
> from India upon notice of his mother's impending death. Clearly the timeline is
> indeed messed up here, since this was long after Paul graduated from high
> school, unless this was referring to an earlier illness that Paul's mother may
> have had, since the Who's Who also shows that Paul did work at his own High
> School, in Paducah, as a Track Coach after his stay in Paris, Kentucky.
>
> DAVID LANE CONTINUED:
> And in the midst of all this we got SUDAR SINGH.
>
> I think we should re-title IN MY SOUL I AM FREE.
>
> New title?
>
> IN MY SOUL I AM BULL SHITTING!
>
> P.S. What is the poor reseacher to do?
>
> When you take Twitchell's narrative seriously it proves itself contradictory
> and wrong.
>
> But all of that does not matter, some may protest.
>
> That this does not matter, I would argue, is the biggest problem confronting
> Eckankar and its future.
>
> DOUG:
> David's question about what is a poor researcher to do, is a good question.
> First off, it helps to have solid facts before making a bunch of accusations.
>
> The facts are still sketchy, but it appears that Steiger's account shows that
> he did indeed change names and places and apparently some dates as well.
>
> Steiger apparently thought that this was common practice with the writing of
> biographies in those days, and in fact he seems to be right about this. I've
> given some examples in the past to show this.
>
> So, if this is the biggest problem that ECKANKAR is confronting, then I guess
> it can't be doing that badly afterall.
>
> Doug.
Henosis Sage
of his never-ending INCOMPETENCE and STUPIDITY and MANIPULATION OF OTHERS.
On Tuesday, 30 January 2001 16:30:43 UTC+11, KMerrymoon wrote:
> SHARON WROTE:
> >Doug, I think every eckist knows that Twitch lied his way into the Kentucky
> >Who's Who with a bunch of phony information. Harold admits that. It
> >amazes me that you're citing this as a credible source.
>
> DOUG:
> Sharon, I didn't bring up this old point again, but I guess I should have.
> Although Harold thought that this Who's Who was the result of Paul's great
> ability to promote things, including himself, I disagree with Harold on this.
> First, because the birth date in the Who's Who bio is off by one year. Now you
> might think that's no big deal, but in this case it would have made Paul one
> year OLDER, and I don't think even David could imagine Paul doing that! <G>
>
> Secondly, the Paducah Library files were literally stuffed with news articles
> about Paul's activities as a Recreation Activities Director, Track Coach for
> high schools and colleges, and a number of other similar positions that he
> filled. Paul was quite good at getting events started, including some great
> community meetings for sports, from basketball and baseball, to wrestling and
> boxing, swimming and tennis, even events for women and those of other races.
> His teams won some tournaments, and some of his team members got a lot of
> attention, thanks to Paul.
>
> This list ran to over 100 articles, all before the Who's Who bio was written.
> It would seem odd, rather, that the Who's Who would NOT run a very short bio on
> Paul.
>
> To further prove this point, when I brought this up before, I showed another
> bio from the same page of a farmer who sold wholesale lifestock. That was all
> the farmer had ever done, yet they still had a bio on him in the Who's Who.
>
> That's why I think the info is credible. And the fact that the wrong birth date
> was one commonly quoted from the family bible also suggests that it was
> independent of Paul.
>
> SHARON CONTINUED:
> >Secondly, considering how Twitch had this little "thing" about his words
> >and "work" being presented accurately, I think it's highly unlikely that
> >you can blame any "inaccuracies" in IMSIAF on Brad Steiger. For example,
> >I believe it's in "Difficulties" that Twitch wrote something about not
> >wanting to sell a book to Hollywood because he'd lose control over it, or
> >something. Which I think is a big lie, considering his whining & jealousy
> >about others who were making more money & getting better agent
> >representation than he was.
>
> DOUG:
> First about blaming Brad Steiger - I have never blamed Brad for anything. He
> was the author, but if it was something that Paul felt was important to
> correct, Paul certainly had every chance to do so. So, I see them in it
> together.
>
> I was only referring to Brad, since he was the one who wrote the biographical
> sections of that book.
>
> As for the story about selling a book to Hollywood, well Paul just never fits
> our stereotypes, it seems. It so happens that Paul related this same story in a
> letter he wrote back long before be started ECKANKAR. I remember reading it in
> his files.
>
> There were also records of his poem, The Lamp, becoming recorded as a song,
> more than once, and becoming quite popular. There were references to hundreds
> of his writings that were published, in the Paducah files, and a number of them
> were full length books. Getting someone interested in Hollywood is not that
> rare. Hollywood agents pick up options on books all the time. It is much less
> common for them to actually make it into film. A lot of them just don't ever
> make it.
>
> So, I see nothing odd or extravagant about his statements.
>
> As for Paul complaining about other writers getting better representation, that
> is simply another case of misinterpretation. As far as I can tell this comes
> from one of Paul's talks where he was casually talking about Lobsang Rampa
> (sp?) who wrote some popular spiritual fiction books. Paul was in a whimsical
> mood when he was talking about this, and was half chuckling when he pointed out
> how successful the bloke had been with his books.
>
> Paul's point, by the way for bringing this up, was simply to show how important
> distribution and promotion were. That was what made the Rampa books so
> successfull, and that was Paul's point - that you could write a great book but
> if it didn't get the right promotion and distribution it would never make a
> success.
>
> SHARON CONTINUED:
> >Now, there's a big difference between changing the name of the home town to
> >the fictional China Point for "privacy", and implying that the "Paris"
> >Twitch visited was Paris France.
> >
> >Twitch conned Steiger, too. Unless maybe Steiger, like Twitch, wasn't very
> >ethical and only out for the bucks too.
>
> DOUG:
> If you knew them very well, I think you'd see that they were two birds of a
> feather. Brad's books ran down the same line of romanticizing his subjects in
> many of his books. It was not uncommon back then, and they were both promoters
> and experienced writers who knew how to make headlines.
>
> They were also both interested in building a long term career in the field of
> spiritual studieds and psychic phenomenon, and had both studied those fields
> very well.
>
> As for China Point being so much different than Paris, well I think a lot of
> the reason it seems that way is because we've become used to the idea of China
> Point really being Paducah. However, when ECKists first learned this, it was
> startling to them and some were confused why anyone would change the name like
> that. Later, it became no big deal.
>
> Of course, referring to France rather than Kentucky clearly makes the event
> seem more exotic than the name China Point, which no one knows.
Henosis Sage
> Doug, I think every eckist knows that Twitch lied his way into the Kentucky
> Who's Who with a bunch of phony information. Harold admits that. It
> amazes me that you're citing this as a credible source.
>
> and "work" being presented accurately, I think it's highly unlikely that
> you can blame any "inaccuracies" in IMSIAF on Brad Steiger. For example,
> I believe it's in "Difficulties" that Twitch wrote something about not
> wanting to sell a book to Hollywood because he'd lose control over it, or
> something. Which I think is a big lie, considering his whining & jealousy
> about others who were making more money & getting better agent
> representation than he was.
>
> the fictional China Point for "privacy", and implying that the "Paris"
> Twitch visited was Paris France.
>
> Twitch conned Steiger, too. Unless maybe Steiger, like Twitch, wasn't very
> ethical and only out for the bucks too.
>
>
>
> --
> Center for Twitchellian Plagiarism:
> http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/center.htm
> http://members.delphi.com/sharon2000
> http://www.iguild.com/homes/eckcult
-------------
RE: sharon said:
"Secondly, considering how Twitch had this little "thing" about his words
and "work" being presented accurately, I think it's highly unlikely that
you can blame any "inaccuracies" in IMSIAF on Brad Steiger. For example,
I believe it's in "Difficulties" that Twitch wrote something about not
wanting to sell a book to Hollywood because he'd lose control over it, or
something."
in 1971 the DAY he died and the months before, clearly show that IMSIAF story
was still alive and EXACTLY the same as it was in Stieger's book.
His whole rattling on about Sudar Singh, in 1971, was no different than in 1968.
OF COURSE, Marman would never go there, even though material then and later by
PATTI SIMPSON supports these MYTHICAL STORIES later repeated by Marman all but
verbatim.
Marman KNEW a whole lot more in 2001 than he was ver willing to say.
In 2015, he is still unwilling to speak TRUTH ... mainly because all he has is
the poisoned mind of a gullible fool who believed that patti and gail would NEVER ,ie to him, and the stories they told MUST have been true to begin with.
Marman went absolutely off the edge when I challenged him that he NEVER ONCE
questioned or considered or felt it POSSIBLE that maybe Patti and Gail simply
DID NOT EVER KNOW THE REAL TRUTH THEMSELVES ABOUT TWITCHELL and his LIFE before they met him. .. SO WHY DID HE THEN ACCEPT THERE WORD WITHOUT QUESTION????
I use the term "without question" for that was the words used by Marman - there
was no need for him to "querstion what THEY were telling him".
The man is a DUD with no genuine spiritual INSIGHT, basic "wisdom", common
sense, or ability.
Like Twitchell, what Marman is is just another "SALESMAN" and "PR Hack" who should never be TRUSTED as "credible" about Twitchell, Eckankar, or 'spirituality' and what the TRUTH might actually LOOK LIKE in plain view.
His MEMORY is also pathetic.
Of course he must have skipped over that point made by Twitchell how INTELLIGENCE and MEMORY go together, two peas in the same pod, and that BOTH these are an indication of the SPIRITUAL POWER and awareness of any individual.
That's IF one wishes to take any heed of what Twitchell "wrote" without first
finding it in the RIGHT CONTEXT in the original material he obviously COPIED IT
FROM FIRST.
---
what an absolute convoluted shit fight Twitchell created through his own lies and
distortions and basic INCOMPETENCE at what he was attempting to do.
I hope all the pain, suffering, deaths, and broken homes caused by people being
in a group like twitchell's eckankar was worth all the MONEY and ATTENTION he
and Gail got out of their "eckankar project" of False pretenses and intentional
DECEIT.
In this sense Marman TOO is a VICTIM to a degree .... but nothing can excuse his own level of incompetence and manipulations and withholding of true facts that he engaged in for nigh on 30 years.
Everyone makes mistakes, but Marman has made a full time CAREER out of it.
Little different than a Kinpa, he doesn't deserve the time of day.
I just do not have time for dishonorable, disrespectful and dishonest people.
People like that are not "spiritually inclined" but in fact are babes in the woods.
Amateurs who have come to earth for a round in Kindergarten, and not a
University level Life journey.
Twitchell was the same deal .... he suckered Patti Simpson her entire LIFE, which says a lot about her no one would really like to hear spelled out and
deal with properly.
AS for Gail, well my hope for her is that she lives a really long life .. 110
years old or more sounds appropriate. (shrug)
Kinpa
Why then,do you continue speaking to me and about me? Hypocrite much?? LOL
> Amateurs who have come to earth for a round in Kindergarten, and not a
> University level Life journey.
Your hubris never ceases to amaze, being that you ARE exactly what you claim others to be....you are always quite humorous, always trying to get an emotional reaction from others, and yet things never quite work out the way you plan! :D
> Twitchell was the same deal .... he suckered Patti Simpson her entire LIFE, which says a lot about her no one would really like to hear spelled out and
> deal with properly.
MORE opinions that you cannot prove! And equally hilarious!
> AS for Gail, well my hope for her is that she lives a really long life .. 110
> years old or more sounds appropriate. (shrug)
Why lookie here! the oh so "spiritually inclined" sean-o, showing his TRUE colors! Wishing unwise things at and for others who never gave him their permission...what was that you said about staying OUT of your space??? Hypocrite much??? LOL You draw others INTO your space while apparently not being aware of this condition, but hey, it IS your life and YOUR karma, no one else has to be concerned any by them! You mentioned my name above, therefore you are a liar, double-talking your way through life, the same as you always have! It is too bad that you said that about Gail up there, as that will certainly bear karmic-fruit for you alone! Enjoy your harvest!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWuwKgfNiDU
Etznab
> I am suprised of the response to my posting. Funny how easily it is for some
> to swallow anything that is mystic and untouchable yet refuse to listen to
> something so simple as human faults.
>
> As for offering REAL people and REAL proof. I did suggest those that want some
> answers (I suspect many that are struggling with Eckankar's past DON'T want to
> really know!) to contact Brad Steiger themselves and ask to hear the
> tapes...Listen for yourself... I am not a library. Do your own investigation
> if you really are interested. I sat in his home with Charlie Wallace and
> Carmela Primavera (Powell). Not sure where Carmela is now but I am sure
> Charlie is around somewhere.
>
> Gail Twitchell Gross--etc was in the Palm Springs area last I spoke with her.
> Does someone know where she is now? Maybe some of the members of this list
> would like to talk to her themselves... I know Charlie Wallace has a tape
> telephone conversation with her talking about Paul and the beginning of
> Eckankar. Anyone know where Charlie is?
>
> You know, reading what you've written here, DavidP, I can see how differently
> we approach these things.
>
> Looking back, it's strange that I knew all these same people, but for me it was
> almost accidental, since I never really sought out trying to meet these Friends
> of ECK.
>
> I've met Brad Steiger a few times, but don't know him very well at all. I
> thought he was a good speaker and an interesting writer.
>
> I miss Gail and think of her from time to time, and would love to sit down and
> talk with her again.
>
> I remember Charly well from the time I spent in Sedona.
>
> But I never thought of even one of them as an authority on ECKANKAR. Strange. I
> trusted my own inner experiences and lessons learned. Either I was able to
> verify the validity of the Spiritual Path of ECK, or I wasn't.
>
> I guess I realize, after reading your comments, how little I really cared about
> the outer issues. I've never made the effort to track down and try to spend
> time with these people because, for one, I always feel that I will be an
> intrusion in their lives, and secondly I would only do so because I like these
> people.
>
> I always love to hear stories about Paul, so I am always a willing listener and
> would encourage anyone to share from their own memories or experiences.
> However, I always think of these things as stories, not some kind of historical
> record.
>
> But that's just me, I guess.
>
> About Paul and Kirpal Singh...it was COMMON knowledge when I was new in Eck
> that Kirpal and Rebazar was one and the same. It was discussed at our
> Kirpal in the 1950's. That is where they met as she too was with Kirpal. Her
> name is Vandella Walker of Cincinnati, Ohio...Is she still alive? Call her up
> and ask her some questions. Other Eckists of my early days that knew all this
> include Bertha Sweeney and Betty Junk...are they still around? Talk with them.
>
> I think the relationship between Kirpal and Paul is well known to this group.
> We've discussed it at length. In fact, your point about how many knew about
> this in the early days is exactly one of the points that I've made. That's why
> I find David Lane's accusations that Paul was trying to cover this up is fairly
> ridiculous.
>
> I agree that Paul stopped referring to Kirpal after his relationship with
> Kirpal fell apart, but that's a far cry from denying it or trying to convince
> others that he never studied with Kirpal.
>
> DAVIDP111 WROTE:
> own print shop...on news print with fake news headlines on the back so when
> they were clipped looked like real news articles about Paul's miracles he
> performed. I seen them myself. Is Mary or her husband, Charlie still around?
> Call them on the phone..Her grandson was going to take over Hald Press in that
> city. His name is Tad. Check it out yourself.
>
> I think the last time you mentioned this you didn't realize they were fake
> headlines at the time this was going on, but assumed they were real stories
> that were just being laid out for reproduction.
>
> What is it that convinced you this was not true? How long after these events
> really happened did you begin to think differently about them?
>
> DAVIDP111:
> was to be the next Eck master. Both Pat and Vandella were 7th initiates at the
> time. Last I heard Pat moved to the San Francisco area. Look them up and ask
> them yourself.
>
> I think that at one time Paul did think Dr. Bluth might be his successor.
> However, at the Fourth World Wide, Paul made it quite clear that the one They
> (meaning the ECK Masters) had been training didn't work out. That was when Paul
> realized he was going to have to look to the youth in ECK, which is when he
> started the Youth Program. I cover a lot of these things in my book, with
> quotes from Paul to show his actual words.
>
> In Gail's private tape recording of the events surrounding Paul's death, she
> stated quite clearly that Paul and specifically mentioned that Dr. Bluth could
> not be selected as his successor. She gave some of Paul's reasons for this as
> well.
>
> As for the checks of Helen Frye's that Darwin cashed, ask Charlie Wallace or
> better yet the estate that she left everything too. I believe her family is in
> Tennessee. Check records at the courthouse in Prescott, Az...esp with the
> court case of Eckankar vs the estate of Helen Frye. Paul Schoolcraft and
> Darwin Gross ON TAPE offered an x-eckist $50,000. to lie under oath so Eckankar
> would get the rest of her estate...was in the Phoenix newspaper..October,
> 1980. Call the paper and get copies...check it out for yourself.
>
> Fascinating stories. I can certainly believe they might be true. Darwin was
> making all kinds of mistakes at that time.
>
> DAVIDP111 WROTE:
> all. Seems like so much petty arguments here over books and manuscripts...how
> about getting out and ask questions from those that can do something about it
> all... Ask Gail, Brad, Vandilla, Pat, Mary, Mike Noe. Chet Tuttle (is he still
> alive?).
>
> I always enjoy hearing these stories from the old days, but they hardly
> describe any source of truth for me. They are just stories.
>
> ECKANKAR. But those were their experiences. My experiences were different. Why
> should I use their experiences to define my reality?
>
> ECKANKAR, since there were so many varied and different experiences.
>
> timers about their memories of Paul, that they all saw Paul so differently.
> Sometimes it seemed hard to imagine they were describing the same person.
>
> Some saw Paul as their friend and that he loved to gab. Others found him always
> philosophical and distant. Others were impressed with his kindness, some with
> his incredible drive to bring out the teachings of ECKANKAR.
>
> They all did describe one thing in common, according to Harold. They described
> Paul as someone who seemed to care a great deal for people, those who were
> studying ECKANKAR in particular. He seemed to always keep a watchful and caring
> eye out for ECKists. They always described the feeling of love they felt from
> Paul.
>
> But I guess I've wandered from my point, which is that everyone's experiences
> are different. None can be used to define the reality for everyone else. That's
> exactly one of the things I've always enjoyed about this Path.
>
> Doug.
What was Doug responding to? Was it this?
DAVIDP111 WROTE:
About Paul and Kirpal Singh...it was COMMON knowledge when I was new in Eck that Kirpal and Rebazar was one and the same. It was discussed at our SatSangs. We just accepted it figuring Paul had his reasons. The High Initiate of the area when I was new in Eck had known Paul when he was with Kirpal in the 1950's. That is where they met as she too was with Kirpal. Her name is Vandella Walker of Cincinnati, Ohio... Is she still alive? Call her up and ask her some questions. Other Eckists of my early days that knew all this include Bertha Sweeney and Betty Junk...are they still around? Talk with them."
It's hard to fathom how Doug could both know that Paul made stuff up and then doubt that Gail ever said such a thing.
***
Was just tying up some loose ends here.
Etznab
DOUG:
"I think that is a very good question that Brad is asking. In other words, Paul
didn't seem to see anything wrong with what he was doing. He wasn't trying to
hide anything.
"I'd love to hear those tapes. Brad also claims that in some of those tapes Paul
described how he saw the future of ECKANKAR."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/8IcqBkVisqY/D09Sw6kZUj0J
Sometimes hindsight is 2020.
Etznab
And if Doug Marman knew about it I think it safe to say that Harold Klemp also knew about it.
What I don't understand are the negative reactions from some people when one wants to talk about this history. Even this many years later.
fife
Henosis Sage
> Do you know whos posts in this thread really matter? DavidP111. I wonder who he was?
many posts by davidP on sharons' old dejanews site. and some info on the archive.
Henosis Sage
David Lane from the get go was on the issue about ECKANKAR covering up Kirpla's connection in the mid-1970s after twitchell was dead ... eckanakr sent him letters DENYING any connection to Kirpal ... so doug TWISTS this fact inot something about PAUL not covering it up in the 1960s ... he's an abject disingenuous manipulative asshole or an idiot. take your pick.
I think both labels are true!
fife
Oh. David Parker. Sure. Thanks.
Etznab
> David parker AZ ...
>
> Oh. David Parker. Sure. Thanks.
I think Charlie and DavidP were not the only persons who spoke out. There was also a character named Tuzahu, be they were rather extreme about certain claims. Then there was James Davis and Diane Stanley, etc. James used to post on T.S. as well.
It's a shame that some people didn't want to hear the truth. Didn't know how to handle it, or just plain couldn't / can't handle it. All those stages for Death of an ideal are still pertinent years after Harold's speech. The final stage is supposed to be acceptance, which is not the same as denial.
Henosis Sage
almost everyone involved at some point in this eckankar discussion (those most outspoken people and those who published something eg james davis et al nicolls th lawyer, brad stegier, MARMAN especially but also Lane, ) have been and remain utterly unreliable... the most unreliable people (and frankly untrustworthy) I have ever personally come across in my entire life. and that's sayin' something profound!
Henosis Sage
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/8IcqBkVisqY/r1EzpX6vAgAJ
fife
Is this part of a prior post by someone or are you saying you had Charlie's "son" on the line last year (by phone or email, presumably)?
Just not sure how you mean this..
Henosis Sage
I have forgotten more about the "creeps" than I can recall. pro or anti eckankar i see them all extremely creepy totally untrustworthy and unreliable "NUTTERS"
ford or joe running the law suits, kinpa, marman, lane, pickett, nathan, runsfeldt etc ... I can count on one hand the number of people I respect and can trust who have either posted here or had their names mentioned as having some "role" with PT or eckankar or exposing it on a.r.e. for 25 years ...
Henosis Sage
Just below them are Patti S-R, Gail T., and Professor David C Lane.
a moment on Lane - the man has never lig=fted a finger "in service" to others. Everything he has ever done (especially in regard eckanakr and cults) has been 100% self-serving spotlight seeking attention seeking pathological narcissism at it;s best. He's as much a liar as marman and klemp and brad steiger are - as much as twitchell was.
It's like Twichell has this power to forever attract a cadre of LYING IMMORAL UNETHICAL SELF-CENTRED LOW LIFEs
OK SOME APPROBATIONS MIGHT INCLUDE
Liars
Cowards
Narcissists
Incompetent
Fools
Abusers
Users
Pathological
Manipulative
Dishonest
Disreputable
Untrustworthy
Unreliable
Gullible
Stupid
Lazy
Insipid
Insidious
Evil
I have more approbations - would like to know them too?
I think Alfie does it best -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GStw-6m8Kus
Henosis Sage
fife
I have forgotten more about the "creeps" than I can recall. pro or anti eckankar i see them all extremely creepy totally untrustworthy and unreliable "NUTTERS"
Absolutely.
Looks like what to expect of conspiracies involving a mess of all sorts of ideas just thrown into a bucket along with copious amounts of imagination.