Proof

[Etznab]

Numerous examples exist where evident plagiarisms were associated with Rebazar Tarzs and put in quotation marks as if Rebazar Tarzs were communicating. On the book covers and inside there were references to the idea of Rebazar Tarzs doing the communicating.

Some people (actually one person, Kinpa) have spouted the idea that plagiarism only proves plagiarism. At the same time, plagiarism is leveled at Paul Twitchell and not the supposed Eckankar master doing the speaking, Rebazar Tarzs.

I contend that Kinpa has acted as a minimalist concerning this matter because there is more than plagiarism going on here. Paul Twitchell and Eckankar did not credit the plagiarized sources. Paul Twitchell and Eckankar marketed the idea that what now amounts to a growing list of copied materials was communicated to Paul Twitchell by Rebazar Tarzs. Dictated by Rebazar Tarzs even.

This is more than simply Paul Twitchell plagiarizing when Rebazar Tarzs is doing the dictating. If you believe that. Does Kinpa, or anybody else believe that Rebazar Tarzs dictated plagiarized material? Given the number of examples, I would feel foolish believing that Rebazar Tarzs dictated all those words as if he were the speaker.

I've watched people spin this idea of Rebazar Tarzs every which way over the years, both here and in other places. Perhaps what some did not expect - including Marman with his no three consecutive sentences identical, or Rich Smith and the 2 percent plagiarized material advocates - was that somebody would not fall for the wishful-thinking baloney, but would actually research the subject and confirm how much copied and plagiarized material. And it just so happened that one person who researched was the same person who's interest was primarily Rebazar Tarzs! Someone who others told to move on. Someone who others suggested should leave Eckankar. Someone who others suggested was (according to them) not really a member of Eckankar.

Now the discussion has turned to who plagiarized? Paul? Or Rebazar Tarzs and other Eckankar masters?

Would it lessen the image of Eckankar masters to be labeled as plagiarists?

Would it lessen the image of Eckankar leaders to not know that Paul Twitchell lied and plagiarized? Iow to be ignorant about the truth in spite of people putting the evidence right in front of their face?

Many things that David Lane was once demonized for the Eckankar leadership had to finally admit was true. Paul twitchell was a Ruhani Satsang initiate and Paul Twitchell did obscure his past and Paul Twitchell did copy and borrow from other writers.

What I believe "Eckankar" stopped short of doing was explaining how there could be both plagiarisms and dictation by Rebazar Tarzs at the same time.

When a hierarchy exists and there is something like a Living Eck Master leading the Eckankar organization, the top position within the organization can carry more weight as if to have the final say. And if Harold the leader doesn't come out and say something then many other people prefer not to say anything either. I mean about the sheer number of copied material that was said to have come from the "Torch Bearer" of Eckankar, Rebazar Tarzs. Said so both on and in the books, etc., and sold with that idea in print!

Was it Rebazar Tarzs? The plagiarized and copied material? Was that from what Paul Twitchell called Rebazar Tarzs? Was that Rebazar Tarzs doing the speaking? Was that Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs in the Himalayas sipping buttered yak tea? Was that Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs walking along the seashore, or having conversations in Paul's house / bedroom? Those ideas were "sold" and marketed in various ways. The proof is in and on the books.

[Etznab]

The question about Rebazar Tarzs, or plagiarism has to be answered in order to explore this subject further.

Let's take a survey. How many people who frequent a.r.e. believe that Rebazar Tarzs told copied and plagiarized words to Paul Twitchell as if he, Rebazar, was the speaker?

(Perhaps we can include Doug Marman in this survey since the same basic question was put to him and he answered. Doug Marman - for those who don't know - is like the "poster child" for Eckankar apologists and who wrote a book with the words "The Whole Truth". Kinpa gave a favorable review / response of at least one of Marman's books (documented at a.r.e.).

Survey says?

Count one vote for NO, it was probably not Rebazar Tarzs speaking to Paul Twitchell and telling him what to write. More likely was Paul Twitchell checking books out of the library, taking them home and copying parts he liked, and putting "Recommended by Paul Twitchell" slips in them before putting them back onto the shelf.

People probably don't like to take the survey, or answer the question unless Harold does it first. Some people will not second guess the master. However, Harold works for Eckankar and it could be extremely damaging for him to admit that Paul Twitchell in some ways created Rebazar Tarzs based upon copied and plagiarized materials. It would be like pulling a string attached to a big ball of yarn. So much would just unravel.

What could also unravel is credibility of people advocating ancient masters and all that other galactic federation hoopla strewn all over the Net; because they would see a classic example of a failed coverup. One where the evidence is so plentiful that nobody has gathered and documented it all to date.

[Etznab]

Harold is on record as having "spoken for" Rebazar Tarzs as if to explain what he meant. (search a.r.e. archives for key words:

CORRECT LETTER OF TRUTH
INTRODUCTION BY HAROLD KLEMP
THE KEY TO ECKANKAR

"People probably don't like to take the survey, or answer the question unless Harold does it first. Some people will not second guess the master. However, Harold works for Eckankar and it could be extremely damaging for him to admit Paul Twitchell in some ways created Rebazar Tarzs based upon copied and plagiarized materials. It would be like pulling a string attached to a big ball of yarn. So much would just unravel."

Here, I will find some text. This is from an old a.r.e. post (emphasis by Sean).

"In the first few pages, Rebazar TALKS interchangeably of the SUGMAD (God) and the ECK (Holy Spirit). We know the difference between the Source of all life, and ITS voice.

Rebazar WAS referring to the Divine Principle that created our consciousness, and how IT relates to us here and now.

Heady reading, the DIALOGUE between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul is best read a little at a time. One may then REFLECT upon the statements that seem to be OBSCURE.

But EVERY WORD in this CONVERSATION is important, for REBAZAR outlines the struggles one faces when he comes into the full scope of God Realization.

This is VITAL KNOWLEDGE for all who are destined to enter into God Consciousness and survive on earth as Co-workers with God.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/CORRECT$20LETTER$20OF$20TRUTH$20INTRODUCTION$20BY$20HAROLD$20KLEMP$20THE$20KEY$20TO$20ECKANKAR/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/vlRM7X8Eke8J

That was from first post on that thread. An exact copy of the text can be given if need be. It's in the archives here.

Point being, that Harold "spoke for" Rebazar Tarzs and spoke about him already. Not just in a talk, but in the introduction for a book featuring Rebazar Tarzs!

Note Survey, Ref. # 326201 Rebazar Tarzs or Plagiarism?

[Etznab]

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 10:18:48 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> This entire thread proves that you are a troll! You WANT to argue...you are no ECKist because of the way you proselytize against the religion you claim to belong to lol...keep trying, no one's buying...

Hey Kinpa. Guess what. I'm not intimidated by you. In fact, I'm going to stand up to you and counter your lies and immature behavior here at a.r.e. And I got news for you. I'm not the only one!

[Etznab]

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 10:18:48 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> This entire thread proves that you are a troll! You WANT to argue...you are no ECKist because of the way you proselytize against the religion you claim to belong to lol...keep trying, no one's buying...

My Eckankar may not be the same as your Eckankar. Your Eckankar may not be the same as my Eckankar. And that is O.K.

Do you remember Harold saying something similar?

[Etznab]

The word was "path" and it was like Eckankar 101.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THBuYsF5OtI&list=PL375C7811BD53A8E7

"It's more than an organization ... but it's a place ... where people, who have been looking, are looking, and have found truth can be together. It's just that simple."

[Kinpa]

You don't agree with that however...nice talk...

[Henosis Sage]

----

And meanwhile, Doug Marman tells other people that Klemp is NOT the Mahanta -
someone else is the Mahanta, according to 'Sant' Marman, close friend and
"confidant" of Patti Simpson-Rivinus a known '9th Initiate of Eckankar' who
has Initiated 8ths ... and was close to Gail ever since the 60s.

"... where people, who have been looking .. have found truth can be together."

be together?

found truth?

---

Twitchell left all his 'estate' and his writings (copyrights) legally to Gail,
not Eckankar.

Eckankar was first paying Paul and then Gail royalties as the author/copyright owner for all his 'works', derivatives, and sales thereof.

Eckankar was basically a 'publisher' who financed and hired printers to print
texts and audio recordings of Twitchell.

Gail was paid Royalties and other income by Eckankar until 5th July, 1982 as she
assigned over (transferred) her ownership of all Twitchell's 'works' for a
final payment of $500,000.00

Today that would be worth: $1,249,000.00

Gail Twitchell was 'released of any and all liability' in connection with
'claims filed' "regarding the works of Paul Twitchell" of so Gail was legally
protected from any and all accountability to do with the ownership and
Copyright implications of existing and future law suits brought against Eckankar. All prior agreements/contracts between the parties became voided.

This was the summer of 1982. The Eckankar publication by the SCP in late
79/80 was probably the largest exposure up to that time of plagiarism
issues regarding Twitchell & Eckankar in the public sphere and the membership.

The estate court case of Helen Frye in Sedona AZ 1980 also caused a bit of
publicity about 'plagiarism' and Twitchell's past in the public sphere.

But then in April 1983, David Lane published his first version TMOASM paperback.

In June 1983 60k copies of Darwin's new LTG3 book by Twitchell, arrived at
Menlo Park and Las Vegas.

Patti was kept outside the loop on this and she was (apparently) livid with it,
and complained to Harold about it. Within 2 months she was writing (supposedly
on behalf of all 8ths) to Klemp demanding he "remove him" or she'd go to the
'membership'. Gross was gone by the 7th Aug 1983 .. not knowing what had 'hit him'.

That first print run of LTG3 was pulped about Sept 1983 .... only a few
copies remained. By late Oct 83 DG was being declared a 'thief' and a
'criminal'. The untruths told the membership and HIs at the Eck seminar in
oct 83 are uncountable.

By January 84 DG was "ex-communicated" by Klemp. Is this some kind of
Eckankar "template" at work, or something? Disagree with Klemp or Eckankar,
and suddenly everyone's a criminal by default ... ???

How nice. How very cultic that is. (sigh)

In January 1984 DG began his lawsuits against Eckankar, but he kind lost out
by late 1985 amid a very controlled cover up and faulty / poor "memories".

An astute observer would note that LTG III covers the period Jan 1964 until May 1965, just before Twitchell began giving his Eckankar series of talks in San Diego.

That this was during the period when Twitchell believed he was in Kirpal Singh's good books, when he was trying to get KS to help with "publishing / printing" the Tiger's Fang manuscript.

It was also the very same time, 1964 in San Fran, that a RT is said to have
appeared in his life with the help of Gail and one of her "spiritual guides"
one "Dr John Leland".

With the first record of a mention of RT by Twitchell, in his entire life, was
a Nov 1964 magazine article.

Within two years his entire 'relationship' with Kirpal Singh had broken down and
ended. Twitchell was writing Kirpal Singh out of his life history, and he was
re-writing / editing The Tiger's Fang book to remove all trace of him there.

In 1963 he's gone from never being around & non-existing, and onto being the
primary figure in the TTF book published in 1967, RT became the 'star' of the
Twitchell Light & Sound Show.

It's more than simply writing up some "teaching notes" and overlooking the
source, or calling that "plagiarism". No RT, not 'real' connected RT, and
there is no Eckankar ... it's raisons d'être disappears as a spiritual path
if RT is not "real" and not part of the Vairagi Eck masters group.

Given "extensive" copying going on, the systematic repetitive nature of it;
the 50% plus, the 80% +, the 90 % plus levels of plagiarism that exists, and
that 80% of all that comes out of RTs mouth, then take that away what is left?

Like the whole Stranger by the River is PLAGIARISED .. its the same as all
the others .. the very same pattern persists there too.

IF RT did NOT "say those things", and we can see where those things were "taken from" systemically .. then what did RT actually "contribute" to PT and Eckankar?

(smile)

Cheers

[Henosis Sage]

---------------------

" - was that somebody would not fall for the wishful-thinking baloney, but would actually research the subject and confirm how much copied and plagiarized material. And it just so happened that one person who researched was the same person who's interest was primarily Rebazar Tarzs! Someone who others told to move on. Someone who others suggested should leave Eckankar. Someone who others suggested was (according to them) not really a member of Eckankar. "

Aah that's ok, they were so busy reading things INTO what you said, they
totally missed what you were actually saying.

Still happens endlessly, hey? :-)

[Etznab]

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 11:19:55 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> Irrelevant, as "your Eckankar" happens to be one that completely disagrees with the LEM, as you've made clear for years here...nothing you say now will change that...anyone can go back years and see what you've said against Harold...but go ahead and keep playing double standard...I know that you've fallen off of the fence you used to ride, and directly into seanie-boy's yard...

Who said Eckists have to agree with Harold about everything? His path is not my path. Don't you listen? And my path is not his path.

Harold says it's O.K. and that people are unique.

If it concerns you how I (according to you) disagree with Harold then show an example and let's discuss it further. Lets make a Satsang out of it.

[Etznab]

It's one thing to be different, not agree on all things and hold differing opinions. Another thing how a person expresses their position. I don't respect you, Kinpa, for casting your position and beliefs as if they were my position and beliefs. Especially with regard to Eckankar. The reason why is that you have done it many times already and continue to do it repeatedly. This is a form of defamation on your part to make up things and lie about other people. What kind of inner guidance are you listening to? Is there a favorite light being, or master that you worship? Or is the responsibility totally your own?

[Etznab]

Your not one of those church clergy who like to lord over and censor the words of other people are you? One who likes to try and redefine what another person says every time they say something that doesn't agree with you? Or something that makes them look good, or better (including more honest) than you? Because if that is your habit it will not be tolerated at a.r.e. Not by everybody, as I will call you on it.

Kinpa writes that I don't agree with Harold and that I proselytize against the religion.

Etznab writes that he doesn't subscribe to Kinpa's lies.

[Etznab]

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 9:42:52 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:

Plagiarism proves only plagiarism. So someone wrote.

The plagiarist was who?

If one believes what Harold and Marman wrote, the name could be Paul Twitchell.

However, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs?

In the passages where words from Rebazar Tarzs were given in quotation marks ... What was his role?

[Etznab]

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:21:58 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> You'd have to ask him, however, common sense still dictates that a book's author is responsible, and being that you have stated that in your opinion no Rebazar ever existed, you may have no other option than placing blame on the author available to you...

Those were open questions, because this is a discussion group.

In your opinion, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs? Can you even answer that? Would you even dare?

For myself, I have yet to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Rebazar Tarzs was, or is a real person. Ever! I used to believe in him because Paul Twitchell and Eckankar told so many stories and I believed them. After learning about the plagiarisms, however, and seeing them with my own eyes I see that other people (and not Rebazar Tarzs) had a role in the writings said to be information come from Rebazar Tarzs.

[Etznab]

On Sunday, June 28, 2015 at 11:21:58 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> You'd have to ask him, however, common sense still dictates that a book's author is responsible, and being that you have stated that in your opinion no Rebazar ever existed, you may have no other option than placing blame on the author available to you...

If Rebazar Tarzs were not real then How could a person ask him anything? Can you ask him anything? Can you (and have you already in the past here at a.r.e.) spoken for Rebazar Tarzs?

[Etznab]

In this particular instance I was referring to the role of Rebazar Tarzs and the endless pages of material in quotation marks said to come from him, much of it copied and plagiarized from other sources. The question was, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs with regard to that.

This was the context:

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 10:02:43 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 1:24:24 AM UTC, Etznab wrote:
> > In this particular instance I was referring to the role of Rebazar Tarzs and the endless pages of material in quotation marks said to come from him, much of it copied and plagiarized from other sources. The question was, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs with regard to that.
> >
> > This was the context:
> >
> > Plagiarism proves only plagiarism. So someone wrote.

> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Yes, that was me, and furthermore, it IS true....the rest are unproven leaps of opinion, and are not even close to being factual, being that no direct evidence of the assumptions has ever been found....

>
>
>
>
> > The plagiarist was who?
> >
> > If one believes what Harold and Marman wrote, the name could be Paul Twitchell.

> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This is an inaccurate supposition, being that Paul Twitchell's name is on every of his books. It is more accurate to say that Harold Klemp and Doug Marman's writings agree with the already obvious facts of the matter...Paul was the one who did it...Rebazar played no role other than the one Twitchell portrayed him in. It is really quite simple...

>
>
>
>
> > However, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs?
> >
> > In the passages where words from Rebazar Tarzs were given in quotation marks ... What was his role?

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Are you seriously unable to identify the role?

"Rebazar played no role other than the one Twitchell portrayed him in. It is really quite simple..."

Paul Twitchell portrayed Rebazar Tarzs using copied and plagiarized writings? So what. Fiction writers portray all kinds of characters. Imaginary characters! Paul Twitchell portraying a Rebazar Tarzs does not prove he is a spiritual and real life vital being. Especially when earlier verions of the writings had different names instead of Rebazar Tarzs.

There is a good possibility Paul created fictional characters and pseudo character names to disguise the real authors whose books he copied and real people who he worked for and took initiation from.

I think you have not proven to me that Rebazar Tarzs was / is a real being. Paul told a lot of stories and now I see that you are telling more. And like Paul, you seem to write like you are knowledgeable. However, I already saw your other side and the childish antics displayed here at a.r.e. Remember the things you said about me and my friends? It tells me that despite the many masters and shamans that you claim to know. that you are still very capable of - and have continually demonstrated - acting like an immature child with a grudge for any other opinion than your own.

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 10:02:43 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 1:24:24 AM UTC, Etznab wrote:

> > In this particular instance I was referring to the role of Rebazar Tarzs and the endless pages of material in quotation marks said to come from him, much of it copied and plagiarized from other sources. The question was, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs with regard to that.
> >
> > This was the context:
> >
> > Plagiarism proves only plagiarism. So someone wrote.

> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Yes, that was me, and furthermore, it IS true....the rest are unproven leaps of opinion, and are not even close to being factual, being that no direct evidence of the assumptions has ever been found....
>
>
>
>

> > The plagiarist was who?
> >
> > If one believes what Harold and Marman wrote, the name could be Paul Twitchell.

> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This is an inaccurate supposition, being that Paul Twitchell's name is on every of his books. It is more accurate to say that Harold Klemp and Doug Marman's writings agree with the already obvious facts of the matter...Paul was the one who did it...Rebazar played no role other than the one Twitchell portrayed him in. It is really quite simple...
>
>
>
>

> > However, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs?
> >
> > In the passages where words from Rebazar Tarzs were given in quotation marks ... What was his role?

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Are you seriously unable to identify the role?

"Are you seriously unable to identify the role?"

How about this. Are you seriously unable to honestly answer the question?

Was that a real life role? or a fictional role portrayed for Rebazar Tarzs?

***

Fictional characters (those never spiritual and vitally real to begin with) cannot be proven real because they never were, but they can be imagined as real (by a real person). This is not what I'm asking about. I am asking if Rebazar Tarzs ever was real.

I didn't ask about Paul Twitchell's role, I asked about the role of Rebazar Tarzs; with regard to the words in quotation marks said to come from Rebazar Tarzs. Was that Paul creating a Rebazar Tarzs? Or was that Paul taking down the words of a real Rebazar Tarzs?

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 11:06:16 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Then why is it that you keep name-calling like a second grader because YOU can't deal with anyone having a different opinion than YOURS. It never was my job to prove that he exists and I've never said that I would. Get over that. What I said about you and your friends was all true, THAT is why it still bothers you so much...you and sean like to think you own this group, but neither of you do, get used to it, I'm not leaving and neither of you can force me to...this IS an Eckankar group, feel free to go start your own if you don't like what I say, or just don't answer my posts, no one is forcing you too. Feel free to write Eckankar about it if that makes you feel better, but DO quit the crying and whining and immature name-calling...

Probably you can't prove Rebazar Tarzs true because he was not true. This is what I am thinking. And probably you cannot answer the question honestly about what was his role because you would have to admit he didn't have one. It would support the suspicion that Paul created a fictional character named Rebazar Tarzs by copying and using other people's writings.

Yea, Eckankar didn't really come out and say this and yet people have come to see it with their own eyes. So there is now no denying it.

I sense that you desperately want to keep the idea of a Rebazar Tarzs. Perhaps in the imagination (yours and others) a Rebazar Tarzs can be created; along with any other imaginary being you / they choose.

Some day you will probably be bothered by people claiming a host of imaginary friends, because that seems to be what you are dishing out to others. As if you were a sales person for imaginary characters. Ones who whisper lies into your ears that you later throw at others. I have seen the way you treat other people, Kinpa. What little respect is shown in your writing and evil actions you call abilities. I think you are closer to being a devil (or a devil's minion) than a spiritual preceptor.

At this point you have lost practically all respect I might have had for you, after your lying tongue has insulted my friends yet again. This will be your downfall, because you have attempted to spread your delusional sickness as if it were a virus. However, your lies have been identified and you will be called on them. Stay as you like, but don't try to impersonate what you not because that will most likely spell your end.

What was Rebazar Tarzs' role? Another fictional character impersonating a real one? Paul Twitchell was the puppeteer pulling the Rebazar Tarzs strings? Well, I think people don't have to applaud the puppet show any longer. Certainly they don't have to pay for it. Well, maybe those who like puppet shows will go for it. What Kind of show are you running, Kinpa? Got a name for it?

[Etznab]

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 1:46:16 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Wrong on all counts....the fact of the matter is, that if you are unable to recognize what his role in the book was, you just aren't very smart....ever hear of the word "teacher?". It doesn't require a lot of common sense to come to that answer, but obviously you are either too brainless or lazy to arrive at it, the only other option is that that isn't what you WANT to hear, so you avoid that answer....

>
>
>
> >
> > Yea, Eckankar didn't really come out and say this and yet people have come to see it with their own eyes. So there is now no denying it.
> >

> -----------------------------------------
> People may have come to see that but that doesn't change that you are basing your conclusion to NOTHING but assumption that has absolutely NO direct evidence to prove it, meaning you simply cannot prove that conclusion, and are likely in a bit of denial on your own because you can't stand for any other answer to be the truth....you might consider not allowing yourself to be so limited...but that is up to you and not my concern...

>
>
>
> > I sense that you desperately want to keep the idea of a Rebazar Tarzs. Perhaps in the imagination (yours and others) a Rebazar Tarzs can be created; along with any other imaginary being you / they choose.

> > -----------------------------------------------
>
> Here the word "sense" means "assume" or "imagine", neither of which are actually true. You seem unwilling to accept even the possibility of any answer that disagrees with yours to be true....enjoy looking at the world through those rosy colored lenses, but do not be surprised when that method fails to show you truth...

>
>
>
> > Some day you will probably be bothered by people claiming a host of imaginary friends, because that seems to be what you are dishing out to others. As if you were a sales person for imaginary characters. Ones who whisper lies into your ears that you later throw at others. I have seen the way you treat other people, Kinpa.

> --------------------------------------------
> More self-righteous assumption, truly funny from one who makes the empty claim that he wants to find out the truth as opposed to one who simply wants HIS truth to be the correct one, regardless of how much evidence there is or is not to support it....you fall away in fear when I bring up such a simply and unarguably true point, there simply is NO evidence to support you, but as always, I tell you to go ahead with your opinion, as that causes me no discomfort or bother......I am still waiting for either of you to show ANY direct evidence that ANYONE is a fake or imaginary character, another thing neither of you are able to actually prove....don't ever try to become an attorney, you wouldn't do very well in that profession.....the comment about lies is more of your imagination, a thing you simply cannot prove, but one that without surprise agrees with your prejudice of your own opinion.....I have seen the way YOU treat oters too, and you are by NO means guiltless, and yet you haven't the backbone to even admit that fact...I am not limited as you are....enjoy that..

>
>
> What little respect is shown in your writing and evil actions you call abilities. I think you are closer to being a devil (or a devil's minion) than a spiritual preceptor.

> > --------------------------------------
>
> You are welcomed to your own opinion, however, it remains meaningless....fall back into your common defensive posture of calling names, I have no trouble withstanding it...I seriously doubt you would know a spiritual preceptor if you came upon one, and your little buddy is much the same, however, I WILL admit that that is M opinion! See how easy that is to do? No trouble at all! Try it sometime...

>
>
>
> > At this point you have lost practically all respect I might have had for you, after your lying tongue has insulted my friends yet again. This will be your downfall, because you have attempted to spread your delusional sickness as if it were a virus. However, your lies have been identified and you will be called on them. Stay as you like, but don't try to impersonate what you not because that will most likely spell your end.

> > ------------------------------------------
> I care not at all for your respect, and I did not lie about you OR your friends, they were drinking that night, and you went to the party and drank also, then you had the bad experience I told you that you'd have...the same thing happened yesterday when you were helping an attractive young lady put some things into her car, and BOOM! Another accident, but that happening to you every time you leave the house HAS to not be your karma right? LOL, whichever gets you through the night, not my concern...nothing you can do will spell my end, you flatter yourself FAR too much, as I have said, WRITE Eckankar! You made the threat, but you still haven't acted upon it, which indicates that YOU are lying! Does it hurt to be proven guilty of what you claim I have done???

>
>
>
>
> > What was Rebazar Tarzs' role? Another fictional character impersonating a real one? Paul Twitchell was the puppeteer pulling the Rebazar Tarzs strings? Well, I think people don't have to applaud the puppet show any longer. Certainly they don't have to pay for it. Well, maybe those who like puppet shows will go for it. What Kind of show are you running, Kinpa? Got a name for it?

> ---------------------------------------------------------
> You think whatever you would like to,however, that IS still nothing more than your assumption, it is NOT truth, so stop lying to everyone about that you....I have never been running any show, but if I were and had to name it, I'd name it Spiritual Truth and Experience, got that? Now, have a nice day dealing with your own karmas and the many things you are too afraid to admit online....

"... I care not at all for your respect, and I did not lie about you OR your friends, they were drinking that night, and you went to the party and drank also, then you had the bad experience I told you that you'd have...the same thing happened yesterday when you were helping an attractive young lady put some things into her car, and BOOM! Another accident, but that happening to you every time you leave the house HAS to not be your karma right? LOL, whichever gets you through the night, not my concern...nothing you can do will spell my end, you flatter yourself FAR too much, as I have said, WRITE Eckankar! You made the threat, but you still haven't acted upon it, which indicates that YOU are lying! Does it hurt to be proven guilty of what you claim I have done??? ... ."

I already saw long ago that you care not.

You cared not for telling lies about Sean and cared not for telling lies about me.

"How many times has Kinpa make a prediction? or insulted other people (and / or their relatives and friends) publicly on this group in the past year, or so?"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/apples$20and$20oranges$20again|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/_bDh_TRH94I/4glBd-Zy8bUJ

Your filthy lying words are not going anywhere either. It will be a part of your legacy.

[Henosis Sage]

He's just an insane idiot, burning the candle at both ends.

Insane, mad, bat shit crazy, possessed, schizophrenic, a nutter, screw ball,
a delusional psychotic and an abject fool.

A total low life iow

"... I care not at all for your respect, and I did not lie about you OR your friends, they were drinking that night, and you went to the party and drank also, then you had the bad experience I told you that you'd have...the same thing happened yesterday when you were helping an attractive young lady put some things into her car, and BOOM! Another accident, but that happening to you every time you leave the house HAS to not be your karma right? LOL, whichever gets you through the night, not my concern...nothing you can do will spell my end, you flatter yourself FAR too much, as I have said, WRITE Eckankar! You made the threat, but you still haven't acted upon it, which indicates that YOU are lying! Does it hurt to be proven guilty of what you claim I have done??? ... ."

a fuck wit of epic proportions iow.

A great friend of LONI HAAS I hear .. and adored by the group of gullible fools
on the light force network website. (shrug)

"How many times has Kinpa make a prediction? or insulted other people (and / or their relatives and friends) publicly on this group in the past year, or so?"

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/apples$20and$20oranges$20again|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/_bDh_TRH94I/4glBd-Zy8bUJ

yes indeed:

"Your filthy lying words are not going anywhere either. It will be a part of your legacy."

On Saturday, 4 July 2015 11:09:49 UTC+10, Etznab wrote:

[Etznab]

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 8:18:57 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> None of it was ever a lie...THAT is what angers you the most! Legacy nothing, you REALLY need to stop flattering yourself this way son...It becomes ever more apparent that you are deluded and cannot stand to hear any opinion that does not agree with your own...but that's just too bad I guess, no one ever gets to have everyone else agree with them, that's just a fact of life! Have a wonderful evening young man!

I don't drink, Kinpa. So the drink you were referring to that I had ...? Was it that I had (according to you) too much water?

And for those reading this for the first time, the events you spoke about were claimed only by you. They (if even there was a party, or any of the events you mentioned) were not according to me, or my friends, but according to you. There was no mess, or any of that other stuff. This is why I call you a liar, Kinpa, and say that I have no respect for you. Not because you have lied once, but because you have lied repeatedly.

This is how you treat people who don't agree with you? Remember, I've seen it before. When you (and people like you) can't stand that your being challenged, that your beliefs are being challenged, suddenly the other people are drinking, etc., etc. You go and lie about people and do it publicly.

Yes, Kinpa. People know what you wrote about another Eckist and what you wrote about their friends. They also know that you claimed to have abilities at remote viewing and that is how you were supposed to know. Yea, you and the language applauded by you as both entertaining and fun after you called another person a rapist, etc. They know.

You say to me that you're not a liar. I say to you that you are a liar and that I have the evidence to prove it.

[Etznab]

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 10:19:31 AM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 5:12:52 AM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:
> > He's just an insane idiot, burning the candle at both ends.
> >
> > Insane, mad, bat shit crazy, possessed, schizophrenic, a nutter, screw ball,
> > a delusional psychotic and an abject fool.
> >
> > A total low life iow
> >
> > "... I care not at all for your respect, and I did not lie about you OR your friends, they were drinking that night, and you went to the party and drank also, then you had the bad experience I told you that you'd have...the same thing happened yesterday when you were helping an attractive young lady put some things into her car, and BOOM! Another accident, but that happening to you every time you leave the house HAS to not be your karma right? LOL, whichever gets you through the night, not my concern...nothing you can do will spell my end, you flatter yourself FAR too much, as I have said, WRITE Eckankar! You made the threat, but you still haven't acted upon it, which indicates that YOU are lying! Does it hurt to be proven guilty of what you claim I have done??? ... ."
> >
> > a fuck wit of epic proportions iow.
> >
> > A great friend of LONI HAAS I hear .. and adored by the group of gullible fools
> > on the light force network website. (shrug)

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, you ARE a "fuckwit of epic proportions", let there be no doubt of this fact! Enjoy that seanie boy! It must be terrible for you both to know that a large group of people just disagree with you both and your nonsensical beliefs that have no evidence to support them, I however am different than either of you,in that I have absolutely NO problem allowing you to have your own opinions....enjoy those....

------------
"... It must be terrible for you both to know that a large group of people just disagree with you ... ."

Can you prove that?

You are only one person. Where are all these others?

[Kinpa]

[Kinpa]

That is correct, there ARE two of you lol...

[Kinpa]

[Kinpa]

I don't "worship" anything or anyone...I am not concerned in any way with what you do or say...don't worry about my inner guidance, you do not get to question or judge it...end of story mr. mcclintock....have a nice day

[Kinpa]

[Kinpa]

>1. In your opinion, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs? a.Can you even answer that? b. Would you even dare?
>
> 2. For myself, I have yet to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Rebazar Tarzs was, or is a real person. Ever! 3. I used to believe in him because Paul Twitchell and Eckankar told so many stories and I believed them. 4. After learning about the plagiarisms, however, and seeing them with my own eyes I see that other people (and not Rebazar Tarzs) had a role in the writings said to be information come from Rebazar Tarzs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Paul Twitchell's living Master.
a. I just did.
b. Why would'nt I?
2. I personally have no problem with that.
3. As I recall, you have said that before, however that has nothing to with proving the one negative that you and sean repeatedly claim it does (despite openly saying that one can't prove a negative perhaps a day before or after having claimed your original conclusion, that Rebazar Tarzs is fictional. That is a double standard, no way out of it.)
4. Those are all fine, BUT, those ARE assumptions, %100, and therefore are not proven and are NOT fact. That conclusion is %100 assumption, with %0 direct evidence to support it. Ridiculing people for not accepting your opinion does absolutely nothing to support or prove your assumption to be fact. THAT is a fact.

Addendum: While you might find the claim of a 500+ year old adept ridiculous, what do you REALLY know about what is possible or not? Science expects that it is already on the path to making any average human's lifespan 500 years...I've mentioned that here before, but that always has been disregarded, which looks to me to be as much denial as what I am falsely accused of on a daily basis, as is the belief that plagiarism is hidden...google eckankar one time...the plagiarism info is all over, freely available....another fact you seem unwilling to admit...denial?

You tell me...abide by the standards you impose on other...or don't, that is only your responsibility, it can never be mine to worry about...

[Kinpa]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tell me YOUR answer, I don't think you'll like mine...no I can't and have not done so, however those are not the only possibilities involved...

[Kinpa]

On Tuesday, June 30, 2015 at 1:24:24 AM UTC, Etznab wrote:

> In this particular instance I was referring to the role of Rebazar Tarzs and the endless pages of material in quotation marks said to come from him, much of it copied and plagiarized from other sources. The question was, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs with regard to that.
>
> This was the context:
>
> Plagiarism proves only plagiarism. So someone wrote.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, that was me, and furthermore, it IS true....the rest are unproven leaps of opinion, and are not even close to being factual, being that no direct evidence of the assumptions has ever been found....

> The plagiarist was who?
>
> If one believes what Harold and Marman wrote, the name could be Paul Twitchell.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is an inaccurate supposition, being that Paul Twitchell's name is on every of his books. It is more accurate to say that Harold Klemp and Doug Marman's writings agree with the already obvious facts of the matter...Paul was the one who did it...Rebazar played no role other than the one Twitchell portrayed him in. It is really quite simple...

> However, What was the role of Rebazar Tarzs?
>
> In the passages where words from Rebazar Tarzs were given in quotation marks ... What was his role?

[Kinpa]

On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 3:27:54 AM UTC, Etznab wrote:

[Kinpa]

-----------------------------------------------

Wrong on all counts....the fact of the matter is, that if you are unable to recognize what his role in the book was, you just aren't very smart....ever hear of the word "teacher?". It doesn't require a lot of common sense to come to that answer, but obviously you are either too brainless or lazy to arrive at it, the only other option is that that isn't what you WANT to hear, so you avoid that answer....



>

> Yea, Eckankar didn't really come out and say this and yet people have come to see it with their own eyes. So there is now no denying it.
>

-----------------------------------------
People may have come to see that but that doesn't change that you are basing your conclusion to NOTHING but assumption that has absolutely NO direct evidence to prove it, meaning you simply cannot prove that conclusion, and are likely in a bit of denial on your own because you can't stand for any other answer to be the truth....you might consider not allowing yourself to be so limited...but that is up to you and not my concern...

> I sense that you desperately want to keep the idea of a Rebazar Tarzs. Perhaps in the imagination (yours and others) a Rebazar Tarzs can be created; along with any other imaginary being you / they choose.

> -----------------------------------------------

Here the word "sense" means "assume" or "imagine", neither of which are actually true. You seem unwilling to accept even the possibility of any answer that disagrees with yours to be true....enjoy looking at the world through those rosy colored lenses, but do not be surprised when that method fails to show you truth...

> Some day you will probably be bothered by people claiming a host of imaginary friends, because that seems to be what you are dishing out to others. As if you were a sales person for imaginary characters. Ones who whisper lies into your ears that you later throw at others. I have seen the way you treat other people, Kinpa.

--------------------------------------------
More self-righteous assumption, truly funny from one who makes the empty claim that he wants to find out the truth as opposed to one who simply wants HIS truth to be the correct one, regardless of how much evidence there is or is not to support it....you fall away in fear when I bring up such a simply and unarguably true point, there simply is NO evidence to support you, but as always, I tell you to go ahead with your opinion, as that causes me no discomfort or bother......I am still waiting for either of you to show ANY direct evidence that ANYONE is a fake or imaginary character, another thing neither of you are able to actually prove....don't ever try to become an attorney, you wouldn't do very well in that profession.....the comment about lies is more of your imagination, a thing you simply cannot prove, but one that without surprise agrees with your prejudice of your own opinion.....I have seen the way YOU treat oters too, and you are by NO means guiltless, and yet you haven't the backbone to even admit that fact...I am not limited as you are....enjoy that..

What little respect is shown in your writing and evil actions you call abilities. I think you are closer to being a devil (or a devil's minion) than a spiritual preceptor.

> --------------------------------------

You are welcomed to your own opinion, however, it remains meaningless....fall back into your common defensive posture of calling names, I have no trouble withstanding it...I seriously doubt you would know a spiritual preceptor if you came upon one, and your little buddy is much the same, however, I WILL admit that that is M opinion! See how easy that is to do? No trouble at all! Try it sometime...

> At this point you have lost practically all respect I might have had for you, after your lying tongue has insulted my friends yet again. This will be your downfall, because you have attempted to spread your delusional sickness as if it were a virus. However, your lies have been identified and you will be called on them. Stay as you like, but don't try to impersonate what you not because that will most likely spell your end.

> ------------------------------------------

I care not at all for your respect, and I did not lie about you OR your friends, they were drinking that night, and you went to the party and drank also, then you had the bad experience I told you that you'd have...the same thing happened yesterday when you were helping an attractive young lady put some things into her car, and BOOM! Another accident, but that happening to you every time you leave the house HAS to not be your karma right? LOL, whichever gets you through the night, not my concern...nothing you can do will spell my end, you flatter yourself FAR too much, as I have said, WRITE Eckankar! You made the threat, but you still haven't acted upon it, which indicates that YOU are lying! Does it hurt to be proven guilty of what you claim I have done???

> What was Rebazar Tarzs' role? Another fictional character impersonating a real one? Paul Twitchell was the puppeteer pulling the Rebazar Tarzs strings? Well, I think people don't have to applaud the puppet show any longer. Certainly they don't have to pay for it. Well, maybe those who like puppet shows will go for it. What Kind of show are you running, Kinpa? Got a name for it?

[Kinpa]

[Kinpa]

On Saturday, July 4, 2015 at 5:12:52 AM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:

> He's just an insane idiot, burning the candle at both ends.
>
> Insane, mad, bat shit crazy, possessed, schizophrenic, a nutter, screw ball,
> a delusional psychotic and an abject fool.
>
> A total low life iow
>
> "... I care not at all for your respect, and I did not lie about you OR your friends, they were drinking that night, and you went to the party and drank also, then you had the bad experience I told you that you'd have...the same thing happened yesterday when you were helping an attractive young lady put some things into her car, and BOOM! Another accident, but that happening to you every time you leave the house HAS to not be your karma right? LOL, whichever gets you through the night, not my concern...nothing you can do will spell my end, you flatter yourself FAR too much, as I have said, WRITE Eckankar! You made the threat, but you still haven't acted upon it, which indicates that YOU are lying! Does it hurt to be proven guilty of what you claim I have done??? ... ."
>
> a fuck wit of epic proportions iow.
>
> A great friend of LONI HAAS I hear .. and adored by the group of gullible fools
> on the light force network website. (shrug)

[Kinpa]

>-------------------------------------------------------------
You did the night in question, and you are lying now, but, that is your concern and isn't in any way important to me....maybe you and sean can celebrate being sober together LOL

> And for those reading this for the first time, the events you spoke about were claimed only by you. They (if even there was a party, or any of the events you mentioned) were not according to me, or my friends, but according to you. There was no mess, or any of that other stuff. This is why I call you a liar, Kinpa, and say that I have no respect for you. Not because you have lied once, but because you have lied repeatedly.

>----------------------------------------------------------------
So you have said, but you can't prove that now can you? Now I must call YOU a liar, because you haven't the backbone to tell the truth, but,that IS your own choice, and whatever proceeds from that choice is yours alone to bear....

> This is how you treat people who don't agree with you? Remember, I've seen it before. When you (and people like you) can't stand that your being challenged, that your beliefs are being challenged, suddenly the other people are drinking, etc., etc. You go and lie about people and do it publicly.

> --------------------------------------------------------------
Again you are %100 wrong....you ASSUME that that is my motivation, but it wasn't, nor is it. Due to that you have shown very clearly, and repeatedly that YOU cannot stand for another to disagree with you, and whenever someone does, you follow sean's lead and resort to the defensive posture of accusing and name calling....is that really the best you can do?

> Yes, Kinpa. People know what you wrote about another Eckist and what you wrote about their friends. They also know that you claimed to have abilities at remote viewing and that is how you were supposed to know. Yea, you and the language applauded by you as both entertaining and fun after you called another person a rapist, etc. They know.

> ------------------------------------------------------------
I have written nothing here about any other ECKist, since you are NOT one at all, and sean hasn't been for quite some time....as for any abilities, I never actually said that that was the ONLY talent I was using, you, as usual, filled in the blanks with what your imagination WANTS to be true......I didn't call anyone a rapist, tat assertion was actually made by another person, and it still stands as of today except that sean out of pure embarrassment went and deleted HIS posts there because he wanted to make it appear that she was crazy rather than manning up and standing by his words, but her posts in answer to his include copies of what he posted, so he is busted.....this usual defense that you both use, that of deleting posts, is at best a very weak one.....but, do as you will,you DO have the control of which choices YOU make..see that? How I do not deny you the right to freely follow your own opinion, even if I disagree with it? Do you find it enjoyable to be proven wrong yet another time? If you do not you might consider not starting situations like this in the future...

> You say to me that you're not a liar. I say to you that you are a liar and that I have the evidence to prove it.

---------------------------------------------------------

No you do not....if you want to believe so, then stop with the empty threats already! Bring me down! Write to Eckankar! Do your best to embarrass me if you wish, but don't be too disappointed if it doesn't work out the way you believe it will....and remember that I DID invite you to walk the walk after talking the talk so many times....I'm not running away....do what you feel you need to do...

[Kinpa]

Why do I need to prove it? Are made THAT uncomfortable by it? It exists without your having it proven to you, just as my difference of opinion exists in the same world where you and sean believe what you believe, it's known as free will....I AM one person, and the others are watchful, but they have nothing to prove to you, and your insistence that they should is merely a manifestation of your own hubris...have I not told you several times to NOT flatter yourself? Perhaps now you can understand why I say that, it's a VERY simple concept, and you lack of understanding it suggests that you have trouble understanding that other points of view beside your own exist EVERYWHERE in the world! There is not one thing you will ever be able to do to change that, so perhaps you ought to consider making peace with the fact that they exist, they exist because others have used their free will and made a choice, just as you have.

In case you want to once again start ranting about how lack of proving it to you somehow proves that no such people exist, that is once again your using the double standard and "proving" a negative, a thing your cohort claims cannot be done...you continue dancing around in circles and arguing in a circular manner, yet it accomplishes not one thing. The ONLY choice that you have available is to accept that people with different opinions do in fact exist (this is common sense, it need not be proven)and if for some reason that makes you uneasy, then that is a personal matter that has nothing to do wit myself or any of the others I am speaking for.Once again,notice that no one has demanded that you change your personal belief structure, nor that you accept anything other than the fact that YOU will NEVER be able to control others, and for the same reason there will always be others that just disagree with you! COMMON SENSE!

Where are all of these others? They do not wish to speak to you, as I have told you MANY times before! What do you not understand about that? It is a very simple concept!

[Etznab]

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 6:35:52 AM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 11:21:49 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 4:07:51 AM UTC, Etznab wrote:
> > > On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 10:58:05 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> > > > On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 10:18:48 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> > > > My Eckankar may not be the same as your Eckankar. Your Eckankar may not be the same as my Eckankar. And that is O.K.
> > > >
> > > > Do you remember Harold saying something similar?
> > >
> > > The word was "path" and it was like Eckankar 101.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THBuYsF5OtI&list=PL375C7811BD53A8E7
> > >
> > > "It's more than an organization ... but it's a place ... where people, who have been looking, are looking, and have found truth can be together. It's just that simple."
> >
> > You don't agree with that however...nice talk...
>
> It's one thing to be different, not agree on all things and hold differing opinions. Another thing how a person expresses their position. I don't respect you, Kinpa, for casting your position and beliefs as if they were my position and beliefs. Especially with regard to Eckankar. The reason why is that you have done it many times already and continue to do it repeatedly. This is a form of defamation on your part to make up things and lie about other people. What kind of inner guidance are you listening to? Is there a favorite light being, or master that you worship? Or is the responsibility totally your own?

This thread is a record.

[Etznab]

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 6:57:56 AM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 11:21:49 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 4:07:51 AM UTC, Etznab wrote:
> > > On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 10:58:05 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> > > > On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 10:18:48 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> > > > My Eckankar may not be the same as your Eckankar. Your Eckankar may not be the same as my Eckankar. And that is O.K.
> > > >
> > > > Do you remember Harold saying something similar?
> > >
> > > The word was "path" and it was like Eckankar 101.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THBuYsF5OtI&list=PL375C7811BD53A8E7
> > >
> > > "It's more than an organization ... but it's a place ... where people, who have been looking, are looking, and have found truth can be together. It's just that simple."
> >
> > You don't agree with that however...nice talk...
>

> Your not one of those church clergy who like to lord over and censor the words of other people are you? One who likes to try and redefine what another person says every time they say something that doesn't agree with you? Or something that makes them look good, or better (including more honest) than you? Because if that is your habit it will not be tolerated at a.r.e. Not by everybody, as I will call you on it.
>
> Kinpa writes that I don't agree with Harold and that I proselytize against the religion.
>
> Etznab writes that he doesn't subscribe to Kinpa's lies.

Kinpa writes that I don't agree with Harold and that I proselytize against the religion.

Etznab writes that he doesn't subscribe to Kinpa's lies.

These words are a record.

[Etznab]

"Why do I need to prove it? Are made THAT uncomfortable by it? It exists without your having it proven to you, just as my difference of opinion exists in the same world where you and sean believe what you believe, it's known as free will.... [... .]"

[Etznab]

This is a record.

[Etznab]

According to you I have trouble understanding that other points of view beside my own exist?

Question: What planet are you living on?

I've been at this newsgroup and reading posts for nearly a decade.

I've listened to you lie and call me names repeatedly and yet I was able to use the name Kinpa in the vast majority of my posts when addressing you. How many times have you not shown the same simple respect of using another posters name when they don't agree with you?

[Kinpa]

What of it? You and sean have consistently done the same, but that is fine for you?

[Etznab]

Prove it that I have consistently done the same thing. Show the links.

[Kinpa]

I'll get around to that eventually...

[Etznab]

I already know that I consistently address you as Kinpa. It will be impossible for you to show that I consistently do by another name. Unless, of course, you lie about it as you recently did.

I wrote: "I've listened to you lie and call me names repeatedly and yet I was able to use the name Kinpa in the vast majority of my posts when addressing you. How many times have you not shown the same simple respect of using another posters name when they don't agree with you?"

You wrote: "What of it? You and sean have consistently done the same, but that is fine for you?"

Time for you to start owning and wearing your own karma, Kinpa, instead of trying to pin it on someone else! You are being called on your lies more often now, to show that you were made aware and to record what was your response.

Have you not seen the list here of the number of names you have called other people? This is what I'm talking about, Kinpa. We are not the same person because you are the notorious name caller. So nice try lumping me in the same category as you and Sean.

[Etznab]

Here is your list.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/%22wastoid%22/alt.religion.eckankar/7QWI-LDEUUc/pS95BAwzAwAJ

And notice your response to me after showing the number of names that you called. You began by addressing with by doing more of the same. Along with including: "it amazes me that these two self-proclaimed "google masters" have never bothered to investigate the definitions of words."

So this is your Defense? We can go through each one on the list and discern which is a name which a statement of fact.

scumbag
assbreath
piece of shit!
egotistical and self-centered asshole

drunk
idiot drunk
drunken dolt
drunken fool!
Wastoid drunk!
drunken cirrhosis!
silly drunk little man
drunken piece of shit
ineffectual drunken slob!
flaccid and drunken sock!

silly boy
madman
silly man
little man
young man!
sad old man
silly man-child

LIAR!
deluded liar
hilarious liar
deceptive liar

fool
dolt
idiot
DOLT!
a joke
stalker
moron
dingus!
tosspot!
little weasel
WEASEL!!!
tough guy!
internet bully
homosexual
douche-nozzle
an obvious dullard!
arrogant and stupid idot!
effeminate waste of flesh!

dumb as a box of rocks
child
big baby!
youngster!
pooooooor baby!

NEENER NEENER NEENER!
dull dull boy
AMATEUR!
imbicilic twits
Nancypants!
internet stalkers
amateur "astrologer"
amateur "numerologist"
Shitter
Mr. Beans
seanie
seanella
pope Sean
pope seanicus
Poor poor seanella!
poor wittle seanella
Richie
Mr. McLintock
mr. mcclintock
NOT a current member of Eckankar
NOT an ECKist by ANY standards!
Sean = LIAR!
full of shite, and your breath smells like it....
bunch of lushes
Richard = Liar!

There are also words for what you've done. Kinpa. And taken together with the lies they are forming a record.

[Etznab]

Btw, that was only a partial list since I kept keeping track months ago. So. in reality, the list is much longer and you keep adding to it every day.

[Henosis Sage]

RE: "I'll get around to that eventually... '

Aaaah the boy-child of broken promises.

BETTER MAKE IT SNAPPY, YOU ARE ABOUT TO RUN OUT OF "ROPE"

PROVE IT ASAP before the Kinpa-Poo Ship is flushed down the toilet forever. :-)

[Henosis Sage]

RE: "What of it? You and sean have consistently done the same, but that is fine for you?"

PROVE IT


PROVE IT


PROVE IT


PROVE IT


PROVE IT


PROVE IT


PROVE IT


YOU CAN'T ... LMAO~!!!

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 4 January 2016 13:44:35 UTC+11, Kinpa wrote:

KINPA FALSELY CLAIMS:

"What of it? You and sean have consistently done the same, but that is fine for you?"

WELL PROVE IT and go back to JULY 2015 as well:

(Henosis Sage) 13/07/2015

KINPA TOLD ETZNAB : "THEN PROVE IT!"

Prove that Etznab needs to prove it!

KINPA: " you won't have an easy time proving that in a court of law, whereas I
would have a somewhat easier time proving the same about you...."

PROVE IT!

KINPA: "you have never allowed for anyone to NOT accept your point of view"

PROVE IT!

KINPA: "that IS denying a person free will, plain and simple"

PROVE IT!

KINPA: "No one has ever asked you to change your opinions about Eckankar"

PROVE IT!

KINPA: "you absolutely HAVE tried endlessly to convince others to accept YOUR "truth" "

PROVE IT!


https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BrMdjOdqv8o/fsyA4qCxnwAJ


*twinkle*

[Etznab]

Kinpa quotes from this thread; for the record:

"[...] I AM one person, and the others are watchful, but they have nothing to prove to you, and your insistence that they should is merely a manifestation of your own hubris...

"... The ONLY choice that you have available is to accept that people with different opinions do in fact exist (this is common sense, it need not be proven)and if for some reason that makes you uneasy, then that is a personal matter that has nothing to do wit myself or any of the others I am speaking for. [... .]"

" ... Where are all of these others? They do not wish to speak to you, as I have told you MANY times before! What do you not understand about that? It is a very simple concept!"

I don't understand why you lie and defame me and Sean writing as if we don't know that other opinions exist. Are you on a personal P.R. campaign?

Also, I would like to confirm that you can speak for all the people that you pretend to. Because, at this point (what you have stated and I shown just today) I see your credibility as seriously suspect. The idea that this is the Internet and just the way it is does not excuse your immature, disrespectful actions and does not give you license to freely lie in spite of the other side countering your lies with the truth. Your actions are harassment, etc.

Show me where your Eckankar Arahata book encourages the type of behavior that you claim is the Internet and everybody does it. Do you get the Quarterly publication and Eckankar mailings? Where does it encourage a member of Eckankar to publicly TELL another member they are not a member?

Can you do that?

Where in the Eckankar literature does it say that membership information is not private and you know that my membership card (Oct 2014 according to you?) is not current?

It's about lying Kinpa. This is not about who writes the nicest-sounding story whether true, or not. For years Sean and I have been looking at examples of "source material" and discussing fact vs. fiction with regard to religions and other writings. It's about identifying what is fact and what is not and so I really think you are naive to imagine that anything goes because this is how it is online. This is not how it is online when there are laws against spreading lies such as the ones you have and for the length of time you have.

What is your excuse really? I think someplace you alluded to the idea that you haven't really told why you are doing these things. Why all the pokings, the prophecies and lying, etc. Have you in your imagination / mind some sense and form of justification for acting like a criminal?

[Etznab]

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 9:48:14 AM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

> > It's one thing to be different, not agree on all things and hold differing opinions. Another thing how a person expresses their position. I don't respect you, Kinpa, for casting your position and beliefs as if they were my position and beliefs. Especially with regard to Eckankar. The reason why is that you have done it many times already and continue to do it repeatedly. This is a form of defamation on your part to make up things and lie about other people. What kind of inner guidance are you listening to? Is there a favorite light being, or master that you worship? Or is the responsibility totally your own?
>

> I don't "worship" anything or anyone...I am not concerned in any way with what you do or say...don't worry about my inner guidance, you do not get to question or judge it...end of story mr. mcclintock....have a nice day

"[...] I don't "worship" anything or anyone...I am not concerned in any way with what you do or say...don't worry about my inner guidance, you do not get to question or judge it...end of story mr. mcclintock....have a nice day [... .]"

And yet you'll go so far to tell other people what they believe? Will censor and / or spin other people's criticism about you (even when it's true) while maintaining lies not based on fact.

It's the sweeping statements, the outright denial of responsibility for actions feeding pseudo history, the appearing to speak for others and everyone, etc. that I really think gives a bad image for you.

Try apologizing for your lies about my membership card. Your ignorance is no excuse for your actions.

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, July 1, 2015 at 10:02:43 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:

"[...] This is an inaccurate supposition, being that Paul Twitchell's name is on every of his books. It is more accurate to say that Harold Klemp and Doug Marman's writings agree with the already obvious facts of the matter...Paul was the one who did it...Rebazar played no role other than the one Twitchell portrayed him in. It is really quite simple... [... .]"

Not sure what kind of logic there. I think you lost the plot. It looks like you wanting to have it both ways.

The role that Paul Twitchell portrayed Rebazar Tarzs in? That was the role of Rebazar Tarzs according to you? Let me know if this is correct.

[Kinpa]

They form not much of anything really, but hey, as Ive said many times before, you CAN have your beliefs! And you have proven this true by saying so this many times! congrats!

[Kinpa]

Then where is it?

[Kinpa]

I am not acting like a criminal, this is simply your opinion, so there you go...

[Kinpa]

You have never proven them lies, so no, not going to happen. Just your claim and my claim. I personally don't care about what image YOU and sean think I have, are you THAT concerned with what others think of you? I am not. Problem solved. Your claim of my ignorance does not make it so.

[Kinpa]

It looks to YOU like that, and, that is fine with me. Frankly, why are you so concerned with what role I say Rebazar Tarzs plays in anything? YOU consider him to be fictional. That alone puts you out of ever seeing or speaking to him, because you have already decided, There is NO debate! You have YOUR opinion and conclusions, and I simply have a different one. You seem to be REAL bothered by that fact. WHY? He doesn't even exist for you, so that is that. You arrived at that conclusion without me, so you go ahead and exist within it, but STOP insisting that ANYONE else also has to join you in it,as NO ONE has to!

[Etznab]

I was asking to learn your position, what is your belief / opinions and what are they based on. I think this is part of the problem. Why do you expect me to believe the picture of a person on a book, or what he was claimed to have said within? Fiction books contain all of that. I'm trying to clarify fact from fiction and if you would not get in a huff and start personally attacking me with your pokings, prophecies and lies then the conversation might yield some new fruit. We used to talk about mythology and history before, in the past when you were more tolerant and civil. What is it that really bothers you and made you change? Does it bother you if my investigations find that Rebazar Tarzs was not as Paul said?

And as for any imaginary Rebazar Tarzs' I don't have to imagine when I want a REAL living person not a fantasy.

I want you to consider something seriously. Consider if Rebazar never was a true real living person. (I'm only asking you to consider it.) And after you do that then try to imagine how to prove it. How to prove the lies that other people told by trying to make fiction a living reality.

Notice how I used the word living. That I expressed wanting to clarify fact from fiction with regard to Rebazar Tarzs. Also try to notice the way I write compared to the way you do. I'm not making up stories of you going to parties and drinking and shitting yourself. That was very immature of you, but it is yet another matter when you try to carry the weight of those lies.

I can easily show that your blatant disrespect has been appalling! I also know this is what angers you most. That someone would stand up to you and your bully behavior.

If you hadn't lied so many times then I would not be writing this. And if Paul hadn't told any lies then I would not write about those either. The effort has been to correct and clarify more than it has been to punish, or defame in the ways you accused me of. The punishing and defaming is more a tag of your own creation that you try to pin on others because it is you, not them, who can't tolerate the opinions of others and so you have to bully them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what justification do you have for acting like a bully and telling such sick and degrading lies? Are you a special person like someone who can do no wrong? Because I have news for you. You have done wrong by repeating and maintaining the lies. It was one thing to create them, but is something more to continue supporting the same lying positions.

What will you do when I prove you wrong about the membership card? Have you thought that one out yet?

I will remind that it was you who couldn't believe because you didn't have physical proof! It was you who stubbornly held to a position of skepticism rather than trust another member. And no matter if you could communicate with the person who knew the truth IT WAS YOU THAT COULD NOT BELIEVE IT!!!

But then, you went a little farther than that didn't you (so its not the same). You went so far as inaccurately describing the card and which I asked about where that wrong information came from. Can you even admit where you got the Oct. 2014 figure?

This is me calling you on a real lie, Kinpa. Are you going to apologize now? or later? (You can always check with the head office to learn if I was telling the truth. According to you, it is not private information. Right? Did you not tell me this already?)

[Henosis Sage]

RE: "You have never proven them lies,"

LOL sure in your dreamworld and delusional fantasies ONLY.

Kinpa has been busted for LYING so many times, I have lost count 6 months ago.

Only an idiot member of the LFN would accept a single word from this incompetent fool.

He can't even LIE well or get away with it. :-)

[Henosis Sage]

---

Etznab:

"There are also words for what you've done. Kinpa. And taken together
with the lies they are forming a record."

KinPoo:
"They form not much of anything really...."

Hahahahahaha hehehehehehe I love it!

Saying that a billion times will never make it so.

[Henosis Sage]

KinPoo desperately claims:

"I am not acting like a criminal, this is simply your opinion ..."

OH YES YOU ARE - for 16 months now - there is a Record of it all.

This is NOT "simply" Etznab's opinion, nor my opinion.

*Opinions* will NOT count one bit about this issue - it will be weighed up
and JUDGED unemotionally against the Law by others in Authority - not by
Kinpoo nor the LFN or Eckankar even.

But do keep denying it for as long as you wish.

Of course you could always "fall on your sword" and beg forgiveness and
promise to never do it again - like Eric Cartman keeps doing on South Park -

OR you could listen to some legal advice OR get some psychological therapy
for your habitual problems in your life.

Only the tip of which are manifesting here.


You could even seriously consider GROWING UP? But that ain't going to happen either!

Oh well, lead a horse to water and all that.

Karmic Experiences are always there to teach such lessons to the slow witted and Vain.

[Henosis Sage]

---

Kinpa, you are a total IDIOT.

I have known Etznab for over a decade now, and I have NEVER heard him say
or claim or assert or insist, Publicly nor Privately, that:

"HE considers him to be fictional."

YOU CANNOT READ PROPERLY - YOU ARE AN IDIOT and/or LYING and/or DYSLEXIC.

Now if YOU think otherwise then YOU go now and copy/paste right here right now
YOUR PROOF of this DEFAMATION / VERBALLING / Putting words into the Mouth of
Etznab here.

Don't weasel your slimy way out of this LIE too by ignoring it or claiming it
is OBVIOUS, no, YOU get off your ass and PROVE YOUR CLAIM about HIM.

---

AND stop LYING "that is fine with me." when it obviously IS NOT FINE BY YOU.

AND "Frankly, why are you so concerned with what role [ ETZNAB ] plays in anything?"

IF (as you falsely CLAIM) that no body cares about "plagiarism" and no body
cares what "people" believe or don't believe about "Rebazar Tarzs" or Eckankar
THEN WHY IS IT THAT YOU SO CLEARLY DO CARE WHAT ETZNAB OR I POST to a no
nothing irrelevant obscure Google Group ?????

Because as everyone KNOWS on the LFN by your endless ravings about THIS MATTER that you do really care aboiut what is said, hoiw it is said and the facts being presented to the world about all kinds of issues regarding Eckankar.

And IF as you claim that know of like ~50 others (most NOT Eckists) who have
had "some kind of contact with these eck masters you claim are REAL" but who
NEVER EVER join Eckankar, then WHO THE FUCK NEEDS ECKANKAR (or Twitchell, or
Klemp) ANYWAY?

Besides an egotistical fool like yourself and Marman (exploding with your out
of control VANITY) that is?

Without your ADDICTION TO ECKANKAR and TWITCHELL and his LIES neither of you
would have a CAPTURED AUDIENCE OF ECKISTS TO MANIPULATE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Like, if Eckankar is so absolutely SHIT HOT TRUTH, and the ECK Masters are all
REAL then why is that you only have a about 30 people "listed" in your tiny
pond on the LFN, and why is it that ALL THE ~1600 Members haven't rushed to send off their PAID MEMBER APPLICATIONS .... you know like all those Shamans,
and Rabbis, and other "Spiritual EXPERTS" (sic) and Truth seekers on the LFN???

I'll tell you why, because YOU Matthew are absolutely full of shit!

That's why YOU endlessly come here to talk about *shit*, and people shitting
their pants at dinner parties -- things that never happened.

My judgement over a YEAR ago now is 100% spot on - YOU are an IDIOT Matthew.

And an INCOMPETENT on this subject.

Plus a Sociopath LIAR of the highest order!

SEE here JAN 2016:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/vfRhSU0VQCM/mv51lZ1uBAAJ

or
alt.religion.eckankar › June 2015
Definition of a Lie or Deceit
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/HzS7mNEqN-E/w_AzPa5V2Q8J


.

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 27 June 2015 14:19:55 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

> Irrelevant, as "your Eckankar" happens to be one that completely disagrees with the LEM, as you've made clear for years here...nothing you say now will change that...anyone can go back years and see what you've said against Harold...but go ahead and keep playing double standard...I know that you've fallen off of the fence you used to ride, and directly into seanie-boy's yard...

June 2015
Kinpa says to Etznab:

"Irrelevant, as "your Eckankar" happens to be one that completely disagrees
with the LEM, as you've made clear for years here...nothing you say now will
change that...anyone can go back years and see what you've said against
Harold...but go ahead and keep playing double standard...I know that you've
fallen off of the fence you used to ride, and directly into seanie-boy's
yard..."

So today 6th January 2016 I will now throw this back in Kinpa's face because:

KINPA "your Eckankar" happens to be one that completely disagrees with the LEM.

KINPA you've made clear for years here, and especially recently how DIVERGENT your ECKANKAR IS from Harold Klemp's Eckankar, adn everyone else's Eckankar.

Nothing you say now will change that, Kinpa.

Because KINPA anyone can go back years and see what you've said that is
DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO and against what Harold says IS the "doctrine" and
the "teachings" of ECKANKAR.

Harold Klemp is the SOLE Authority of what the "teachings of Eckankar" are
KINPA and NOT YOU.

...but go ahead and keep playing YOUR double standard... here, and continue to
speak YOUR OPINIONS, and then suffer the consequences of that if there are any.

And that includes the unauthorized use of ECKANKAR Trademarks.

Hey KINPA, I don't make the Laws, and I do not enforce the Laws, and nor do I
control the ethics of Eckankar INC either. They do.

So IF you run into trouble one day for your unauthorized PRESENTING Eckankar
teachings, or for YOUR OWN public behaviour on the LFN or here, or anywhere,
DO NOT blame me nor run around crying a river on everyone else's shoulder for
getting busted and HELD TO ACCOUNT.

Many a High Initiate of ECKANKAR has been busted back to a 2nd or a First for
less.

Of course you have already said that YOU do not care what Eckankar thinks or does about YOU ... and that's all OK and fine and dandy, because neither do I.

*twinkle*


.

[Henosis Sage]

----

Kinpa says to Etznab in June 2015:

"This entire thread proves that you are a troll! You WANT to argue...you are
no ECKist because of the way you proselytize against the religion you claim
to belong to lol...keep trying, no one's buying..."

Well I disagree completely.

What this entire thread proves and the other several HUNDRED since Sept 5th
2014 is that KINPA is an abusive TROLL, a habitual DEFAMER, and a criminal
Cyber-stalker from 2014 to 2016.

And clearly KINPA presents himself here and on the LFN as a "LEGITIMATE" Missionary and Proselytizer FOR ECKANKAR.

The truth is that KINPA has NO AUTHORITY from ECKANKAR to do or say what
he has been doing and saying in public/private for a very long time.

It is what it is. It's also obvious that "no one's buying" it either!

C'est la Vie

[Kinpa]

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sean's words, NOT mine....how or what I present myself as being, changes with a person's opinions, but I have never used either of these terms to refer to myself, nor do i use the term Vahana. What I AM not, is the exact and polar opposite of a "non-legitimate" person within the works of ECK.

> The truth is that KINPA has NO AUTHORITY from ECKANKAR to do or say what
> he has been doing and saying in public/private for a very long time.

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More random opinions, and ones that he cannot prove. Typical for this guy. He tries so hard to be like another Aussie, Julian Assange, however, just like him, sean makes himself misleading and sometimes a liar. Sean is not fit to judge ANYONE'S words or actions, whether private or otherwise, and yet he exemplifies his Munchausen's Syndrome by continually claiming the intelligence as well as collegiate degrees to diagnose anyone of any range of mental disorders. The average reader can see quite clearly what the case actually is, sean loves to make accusations, however he is always doing it while looking at himself in the mirror.....admitting that is a thing he hasn't the strength to do. No loss!

> It is what it is. It's also obvious that "no one's buying" it either!

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More overvaluing your own opinions, that you seem unable to find even a single NEW person to "buy into." Always the same 4 people, and not 1 of you has the spine to do it alone. Go tell the FBI sean! They still won't care in the least, no federal laws having been broken. OOPS~! In any case, may you reap the benefits of being blessed by Divine Love, in the Names of the SUGMAD, the ECK, and the Mahanta, with perfect Love and perfect Health~!



> C'est la Vie