Iain learns about Mentor and Disciple on the eve of his departure from the SGI +^

[Chas.]

Iain learns about Mentor and Disciple on the eve of his departure from the SGI +

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 2:42:29 PM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
[Written 7 days after Iain's belated announcement
that he had left the SGI on January 1st.]

> Does the emphasis modern SGI teaching places on the
> mentor-disciple relationship help or hinder practice of the
> Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's Buddhism?
>
> To address this question it is first necessary to define
> what the SGI means by 'mentor'. The term is used in 6 main
> ways by SGI:
>
> 1) The Law as mentor
> 2) The Buddha as mentor
> 3) One or other of the "3 Presidents"
> 4) Mr Ikeda as mentor
> 5) A generalised umbrella term that is used to refer to
> any of 1-5 without being specific 6) A general concept that
> wraps 1-5 into a 'oneness'
>

You forgot countless. President Ikeda once called the Gohonzon the true mentor, he has mentioned being mentored by children he talks to, and by Zhou Enlai of China (and many others), and has said the SGI is filled with great mentors and that they should mentor each other.

> Using this term in so many different senses invites
> confusion.
>

The true state of affairs in life is as confusing as hell. So, what?

.
. Skip all this ...
.
.

We begin with Iain's first (and I'm sure not the last) failed attempt (foiled by Julian) to create a new Sangha, one day after he secretly left the SGI:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/RULYUjCHykc/eHiAld6SEAAJ

On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 1:32:11 PM UTC-8, Julian wrote:
> On 01/01/2016 18:19, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Thanks Chas, I know it wasn't directed at me and I've
> > guessed there's a history between David and you, lool I've
> > seen some of the exchanges here and on Narchive! Still, I
> > found it surprising and I restate that I don't think you do
> > that, at least I hope you wouldn't!!!
> >
> > Odd that you're having posts blocked, I haven't had
> > that at all but hey. So what do you reckon? Shall we move
> > out of the wild west and into a moderated forum? What's
> > your vote? Alex? David? Mark? Anyone else?
> >
> > If we want to do that, I'd want to set some ground
> > rules we could agree on and that keep the forum lively,
> > free yet not prone to excesses of objectionable posting.
> > Provided that's agreed and stated up front, very happy to
> > moderate a group on that basis...
> >
> > What say you guys? :)
>
> I'm not interested in moderated fora unless I, alone, am
> the moderator.
> Even then it would be too tiresome to keep my interest
> beyond a day
> or so.

On Saturday, January 2, 2016 at 4:29:53 AM UTC-8, Julian wrote:
> On 01/01/2016 22:36, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> > OK, thanks Julian, that's a pity. Not even if it's a
> > loosely moderated forum and moderated openly to jointly
> > agreed criteria? If you change your mind, let me know. I
> > hope you're doing well by the way. Happy New Year to you :)
> >
>
> In my experience, invariably, the moderators go insane
> corrupted by even so little power.

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What follows are exchanges on the same topic of Mentor and Disciple in the previous month of December 2015 as Iain was secretly planning to leave the SGI and start a new Buddhism with a new Sangha on January 1st, but still hiding behind the false cloak of SGI membership: to freely denounce Sensei and the SGI from the inside, with impunity.
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https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren/rndfISdEPvw/anCsekHyCwAJ

On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 8:59:05 AM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
[Written 17 days before Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]

> Chas, my point was specific "organisation needed to propogate". My push back > If you are suggesting that the 'cadres' representated in the passage you quoted somehow mystically translates into this day and age in the shape of the SGI, I think that's a poor suggestion. No doubt in that mythology, Nichiren would be Superior Practices and the three presidents the other leaders of the bodhisattva's of the earth. I have no doubt that this could be what the forces that are reshaping the SGI away from the Law and Gohonzon are driving towards. Those who interpret the meaning have control over that meaning. Beats me Why anyone would need to write Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra when one can simply read it and chant Daimoku...
>

Your rhetorical technique of declaring some things to be others, or relabeling, is specious. The SGI history and struggle is not a "mythology", it is a fact.

Since you haven't bothered to read "The Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra", how can you present a critique? You probably haven't read "The Living Buddha", "Buddhism, The First Millennium", or "The Flower of Chinese Buddhism", yet either. Those are world-renowned and widely-taught histories, as well. I would suggest reading them, you might learn something you don't already know.

Recent studies of how the human brain actually works presents some interesting insight. The technicolor and stereo picture you have of the world around us is not the way it really is. Vision signals come into the thalamus from the optic nerves and flow to the visual cortex in the back for processing and then to the cortex on top to create your world model a half-second delayed, incorporating the other sense paths.

What's interesting about this is that there is six times as much signal flowing back into the thalamus and modifying your vision signal as the original signal from the optic nerves. So what you see as "objective reality" is six times as much subjective as objective. Hence the people rambling around talking to themselves and seeing things are actually talking to people and seeing those things. Or the people who see their mother in a photo, feeding back six times as much information into the recognized image, surrounding her face with a golden aura and love and warmth...

Hence, what people perceive when the chant to the Gohonzon, or when they see Sensei, or go to an SGI meeting and chant together and talk with other members ... this is mostly context from the inside and not from the outside.

So, when David Cole was standing guard outside the chamber where President Ikeda was having personal meetings with one after another young women's division leader for many hours in Southern California all those years ago ... he perceived Sensei having sex with all those girls one after another in an act of superhuman sexual prowess unmatched by any human male in history. It was the only way he could explain what was progressing, and I'm sure he received visual, aural and other sense queues to reinforce that world model in his cortex. This was because he did not have the mentor and disciple relationship to protect him from the demons that arise at the beckoning of the devil king in all people who chant and attempt to attain enlightenment to challenge the dominion of the devil king over the six worlds.

You may have had similar "experiences" of SGI life.

My experiences are quite different.

My first experience with Sensei close up was in 1973? or 1974?, when I was a bus toban at the San Diego convention. There I was on the street holding back the crowd behind me to protect them from running out into the motorcade passing by 20 feet away. As Sensei smiled and waved at each of us: a joined wave of joyous sound passed up the street and finally got to me as we looked at each other.

I had no idea of what to expect and no preconceived expectations of any kind. I had precious little religious belief or faith in Buddhism. I was chanting, because I had a desire to make something of my life, and absolutely no faith in anything else whatsoever, so Buddhism was my only hope. I was, however, quite sincere and diligent in protecting my bus load of members, every step of the way from the very beginning of the trip until the last member stepped off the bus at the end and went on their way. Their well-being was my entrustment and in that moment I was fulfilling my vow, with no idea of what the effect would be of that cause. I was chanting like crazy on that trip, because every time the bus made a rest stop was another chaotic opportunity for deviltry to destroy the trip for someone or everyone. I would watch everyone like a hawk, and make precision head counts every time we got back on the bus.

As our gazes came close, my life condition soared, I know this now, because I have chanted many tens of millions of daimoku and that is how it feels to chant a lot.

As our gazes met, I perceived an image of black Chinese characters on a purest white background, I think the character myo (to open, to revive, to be fully endowed). I had never heard of such a thing from anyone and it was a surprise to me. As the motorcade went up the street and looked back at the people I was protecting and they were all similarly blown away.

It took me a while to process that experience and come up with a conclusion that in the mirror of the Gohonzon, we were simply two bus tobans doing our job, although his bus was significantly larger.

However, before and after coming to an understanding of that, a deep bond was formed in that moment, and every time there is an opportunity for devils to arise in the relationship of myself and Sensei, or the SGI or any leader or member of the SGI, that mentor and disciple relationship, like a grandmother cell in the visual cortex, recognizes him and them as true self. And anything that attacks them as something I have to deal with, sometimes with great care, other times very strictly.

And that sums up the world view residing in my cortex, permanently colored by that mentor and disciple relationship, never to be swayed by anything.

Now, this experience didn't make me a great bodhisattva or anything, I was still a lousy Buddhist, pursuing my career flying around the world, repeatedly out of touch from the organization periodically, missing gongyo a lot (so glad it's shorter), sometimes only chanting when I was miserable, which of course guaranteed a lot of that. But like the jewel sewn into the robe, the one and only thing in the world I had faith in was that relationship with Sensei, and that finally brought me back into focus in the SGI, where I found out we had been excommunicated. Being permanently on Sensei's side in any dispute, I traded in my Nittatsu Gohonzon for a larger Nichikan Gohonzon and here is my unworthy self, completely shed of any attachment to the NST priesthood.

As Nichiren states in "Encouragement to a Sick Person", pp. 77-78,

. Moreover, every single person is guilty of slander of the
. Law, an offense exceeding even the ten evil acts or the
. five cardinal sins. Although few people slander the Lotus
. Sutra with actual words of abuse, there are none who accept
. it. Some appear to accept the sutra, but their faith in it
. is not as deep as their faith in the Nembutsu or other
. teachings. And even those with profound faith do not
. reproach the enemies of the Lotus Sutra. However great the
. good causes one may make, or even if one reads and copies
. the entirety of the Lotus Sutra a thousand or ten thousand
. times, OR ATTAINS THE WAY OF PERCEIVING THREE THOUSAND
. REALMS IN A SINGLE MOMENT OF LIFE, if one fails to denounce
. the enemies of the Lotus Sutra, it will be impossible to
. attain the way.

Note the characters in bold, even if you perceive ichinen sanzen in the Gohonzon and fail to denounce the enemies of the Lotus Sutra, it is impossible to attain the way.

Iain, I note that you started chanting in 1988 (27 years ago, according to you), did you receive a Nikken Gohonzon? Have you done the Gohonzon exchange?

-Chas.

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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 17, 2015 1:31 PM
[14 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]

Thanks Chas,

I don't see any point discussing anything further with you. You have clearly formed a particular belief system founded on Mr Ikeda and SGI as absolute and unchangeable entities that seem not to be subject to delusion or capable of corruption. I have expressed my views and they are very clearly different from yours and incompatible. Our worldviews and view of the practice are mutually exclusive. Although I disagree with your views and your beliefs, you have a right to them. You are the boss of your life Chas and you alone are responsible for it. Likewise for me.

I would however like to correct you on your baseless assumption:

"Since you haven't bothered to read "The Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra", how can you present a critique?"

I suggest you read my posts to understand how wrong you are. Especially the one that clearly states when I got my copies of that series. I find it surprising that you would make this error towards someone who clearly has an extensive library and who has clearly read and can reference the books within that library.

"You probably haven't read "The Living Buddha", "Buddhism, The First Millennium", or "The Flower of Chinese Buddhism", yet either."

These were among the first books of Mr Ikeda's that I got along with the Buddhism in action series. And, like many of Mr Ikeda's writings of that era, I got a lot from them. I can't remember precise dates of acquisition but I remember I got them from Richmond Green, when that was our National Centre, so 1988 - 1990? not much later.

"Those are world-renowned and widely-taught histories, as well. I would suggest reading them, you might learn something you don't already know."

Not quite Chas, I enjoyed them but by Mr Ikeda's own admission, they are to someone extent reimaginings. Buddhist history told in a digestible format and from a very particular standpoint. There is always more we can know Chas, I haven't stopped learning, nor will I.

On the Gohonzon exchange, what an odd question! Why even would it matter if I had or had not exchanged the Mandala? Gohonzon is Gohonzon, is Gohonzon. But since you are curious about the Mandala I chant to, Omamori was bestowed in about 1998 and Tokabetsu was bestowed in 2005, you work it out. Just let's be very clear, Gohonzon is found in the two characters for faith. That's the really important thing, not the Mandala in and of itself.

To end, I have noticed you like to try and keep the exchange going. In future of I need to respond, I will simply reference this post. As I said at the start of this post, I am not interested in further discussion with you for the reasons given. Good wishes to you and farewell. :)

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Chas. Dec 18, 2015 6:41 AM

On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 1:31:13 PM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks Chas,
>
> I don't see any point discussing anything further with you....

> To end, I have noticed you like to try and keep the exchange going. In future of I need to respond, I will simply reference this post. As I said at the start of this post, I am not interested in further discussion with you for the reasons given. Good wishes to you and farewell. :)

Farewell, again, Iain.

-Chas.

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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 19, 2015 5:30 AM
[12 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]

An observation on the following statement from earlier in the thread is that if one understands and applies the nine consciousnessess model, this is self evident. In fact what is notable is the extent to which the findings of modern neuroscience support that model.


"... So what you see as "objective reality" is six times as much subjective as objective. Hence the people rambling around talking to themselves and seeing things are actually talking to people and seeing those things. Or the people who see their mother in a photo, feeding back six times as much information into the recognized image, surrounding her face with a golden aura and love and warmth...


> Hence, what people perceive when the chant to the Gohonzon, or when they see Sensei, or go to an SGI meeting and chant together and talk with other members ... this is mostly context from the inside and not from the outside."


So briefly, on the nine consciousnessess. The 'sensory' consciousnesses are aligned to the senses of sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell but they are not those senses in and of themselves.

Their job is to filter and make sense of the input from the external world that comes via each of those inputs.

The sixth consciousness puts it all together into a coherent whole. However that is not a one way street. The 6th interplays with the sensory consciousnessess.

The seventh, allows deeper judgement, Dick Causton locates the ego in the seventh consciousness.

The eight is the 'storehouse' at a superficial level this is memory itself, a deeper reading would, in psychological terms be the subconscious, unconscious and even collective unconscious. A still deeper reading in Buddhist terms is that it is the seat of our karma and quite possibly the single greatest factor in shaping who we are.

Likewise, as for the 6th, there is an interplay between the collective of 6,7 & 8 and the sensory consciousnesses. Our internal subjective reality is the product of their collective operation.

One can look at this in a different way, thought (perception), influences feeling (emotion), emotion, influences behaviour, behaviour influences the way our external world responds, which in turn influences out thoughs (perception).

Our subjective perception (subjective reality) is essentially a model of the world (objective reality) that's all, it is not the fact itself.

How accurate our subjective reality is is determined by the limits on the amount of information we can hold and process plus the choices we make in rendering the world and the cognitive mistakes we make. Eugene Gendlin, in his philosophical works, has an interesting take on this.

The problem of subjective reality is that it's really hard to spot the limits of something that seems so real and spot the choices/errors we have made in creating it. Hence the usefulness of the ninth consciousness. Hence also why the ninth consciousness is said to 'purify' the other consciousnessess when it is active and operative.

Once one can see clearly, one then has a better basis for living well. Again, there similarities with this view, which could be said to be reliance on the Law, and with Gendlin's research in his counselling works, suggest the same phenomenon.

As Nichiren once said, attaining Buddhahood is nothing extraordinary. I think he's right. It is a purely natural function with us that should be simple but that gets overcomplicated and sometimes deliberately so by those with vested interests.

Most of the problem of becoming enlightened and routinely using enlightenment as an aid to living comes from trying to get past the compelling delusion of the perception we are presented with, which is created by the workings of the unenlightened 8 consciousnessess.

Just to make things more difficult, there is money to be made and power to be had by keeping people in an unenlightened state and keeping them dependent. It's unsurprising that any teachings and teachers that advocate and deliver people into the independence of their enlightened minds meet with persecution and resistance.

In today's world, that's probably most typified by powerful corporations that have become adept at using the nudges of behavioural economics and the insights that come from data mining, psychological profiling and neurological research to inform and drive whole marketing industries that effectively influence behaviour in unenlightened people.

Not that all powerful organisation are problematic but for some, can you imagine how undesirable a massive outbreak of enlightenment and thus independence, would be in the world population? People would be much harder to control, heavens they might even start thinking for themselves, challenging inequalities and elites. The share prices of some could plummet and careers left in tatters.

That's why a clear focus on reliance on the Law and steadfast faith are needed. It's the only route past an internal reality that is so compulsively believable even when it is so flawed and which is so ably supported and encouraged by elements in the external world.

This is indeed a difficult age...

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iainx...@gmail.com 12/19/15
[12 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]
[Not the "appeal to authority" made by wrapping himself in the SGI leadership, even though he is secretly leaving it.]

Correction to this statement:

"You may have had similar "experiences" of SGI life."

That is made against the backdrop of the quotion further down.

The simple answer is no, my experience of SGI life has been very positive. The embedded assumption in the statement quoted is as follows: If you (I) had experienced a positive SGI life, I would have formed the same mystical bind with 'Sensei' and therefore I would not see anything but good in the SGI or Mr Ikeda. So by extension, I must have had a negative SGI life and not formed the proper bond with 'sensei' and not been protected by the mentor-disciple relationship. Therefore, by further extension I am in the 'other' group and therefore what I say can be dismissed.

OK now for the truth, not only have I had a very positive experience of SGI and its NST lay society forerunner, not only am I on record for having Saud so and credited Mr Ikeda but it is precisely because of taking careful note of what Mr Ikeda taught and of those wonderful people who helped me shape my faith that I dissent in some areas not.

I will not have the a lazy labelling applied, particularly when it is not accurate or true.

Let's be really clear about this, SGI teaching and those credited to Mr Ikeda have objectively changed. One can see that objectively by comparison of then and now teachings, side-by-side and like-for-like.

This is not a product of the internal workings of an imagining compelling deluded internal subjective reality, this is careful side-by-side textual analysis. Clearly there are differences.

I am true to what I embraced and was taught and remain so. I have put that into practice to great effect and continue to.

My view is that SGI has and is deviating from that true root, so as I am obliged to, as the SGI charter exhorts me to, I speak out.

It is unsurprising that those who would see an organisation they profess to fervently follow and a person who they have all but apothosised, try and dismiss such inconvenient views.

Every time an indisputable point is put it is ignored. As was the case in the textual analysis using Mr Ikeda's lectures on the same Gosho, then and now. Heaven forbid that objectivivity should get in the way of a nicely running, 6 fold thalamus feedback created subjective thrall We really don't want to disturb that Nice warm cosy golden glow now do we?

Such fake followers are like so many cunning and cowardly foxes barking in the night. They care naught for their organization nor their 'sensei' and even less for the Law.

So long as their selfish beliefs remain intact and they can continue to live in La, La land with the warmth of their golden internal reality decorated with black mystical Chinese characters on a pure white background floating in the air, like a bad rendition of the "The Bullet Proof Monk", they're happy. And they'll go to any length's to keep it that way.

This was the pitiful attempt at a slur on my SGI experience (rofl):

"So, when David Cole was standing guard outside the chamber where President Ikeda was having personal meetings with one after another young women's division leader for many hours in Southern California all those years ago ... he perceived Sensei having sex with all those girls one after another in an act of superhuman sexual prowess unmatched by any human male in history. It was the only way he could explain what was progressing, and I'm sure he received visual, aural and other sense queues to reinforce that world model in his cortex. This was because he did not have the mentor and disciple relationship to protect him from the demons that arise at the beckoning of the devil king in all people who chant and attempt to attain enlightenment to challenge the dominion of the devil king over the six worlds.

You may have had similar "experiences" of SGI life."

Good luck with trying to get anyone who knows me, including our current and two previous General Director's to support your view and your slur.

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Chas. Dec 20, 2015 6:02 AM

Didn't say you had those experiences.

Was saying that the mentor and disciple relationship is protective against such experiences.

Sorry you took it that way, was truly speaking from the heart.

-Chas.

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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 20, 2015 12:48 PM
[11 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]

That's true Chas you did not say 'I had' those experiences, you actually said I 'may have had' those experiences.

Still, I am having trouble reconciling your later statement, that you were illustrating your claim that the mentor disciple relationship was protective against, for want of a better phrase 'demon attack', with your speculation about whatever experiences I may or may not have had.

You choose David Cole to as a foil for your point, so why speculate about me and my experiences? Your point could have been made quite adequately without reference to me. Do you not think I'm close enough to Mr Ikeda and his teachings? Has it ever crossed your mind that I may just actually care quite a bit for him and this organisation? That I might just actually be one of the best 'disciples' he has? I know little but I know this, those who stray from the Law, suffer, that gives me no delight. So my first priority is as a votary of the Sutra. Who the heck do you think taught me that??? And who the heck, besides Mr Toda & Mr Makaguchi made it possible for him to be able to teach so??? Think, Chas think...

This was your actual quote. I 'took it that way' because it was put that way, it had no place being there.

But your apology, even though it is couched in the 'sorry you' (your problem) rather than 'sorry I' (I am responsible for my words) language, is accepted. Thank you.

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Chas. Dec 21, 2015 7:52 AM

There are clearly different writing styles at play here.

I make it perfectly clear at the outset who I am with and who is my Sensei, and [that] is the SGI and Daisaku Ikeda. No one has to ponder for a moment to get that from what I write.

I do not want anyone to think even briefly, that I might be objective or diffident about any of this, and willing to consider or to change over to their distortions of Lotus Sutra Buddhism, or some even lesser amalgamation with Hinduism, like Mark Rogow's.

I am utterly inflexible on that point, due to the mentor and disciple experiences I have described and many others.

The mentor and disciple principle has closed that door into chaos and misery for me. It is like armor, and I always strap on that armor.

-Chas.

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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 21, 2015 9:56 AM
[10 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]

And that Chas is precisely my point.

That inflexiblity and that concern only for yourself is what will be manipulated so that you end up betraying what you say you hold dear. Unless you are in direct and regular contact with Mr Ikeda? Which I very much doubt.

As I said in my previous post, this is just like the barking of cowardly, cunning foxes in the night. I'm not yet decided as to which type of fox you are.

The problem you refuse to confront in your naivete or wilful blindness, is that those who hold the image of the mentor and filter his words hold the power over such unthinking and gullible disciples.

Of course that could be benign, of course it could but that really isn't the point. 'If you slacken for even a bit demons will take advantage', seems an appropriate quote.

It is the same with those who hold the power over the lectures on the Gosho and the Sutra, likewise they who hold the power over the message, when the norm is that one reads Gosho and Sutra, only through the commentary, hold the power to make the Gosho and Sutra support whatever they want it to support. They are free from challenge, especially if it was the mentor's supposed interpretation!

That, my friend was exactly why SGI changed its regulations, to prevent such a situation arising or at least to counter it if it did. A fact that seems lost on you and which I note you have consistently refused to address.

You are so busy refuting and defending the enemies without, it doesn't seem to occur to you that the simplest way to defeat the good work that's been done is to corrupt the organisation from within.

But of course, you no doubt will be able to spot that if it happens, won't you Chas? Because those nice corruptors will have the decency to say 'Hi, we're here to corrupt the SGI', they'll wear nice big signs on their backs 'Icky a corruptor', just so as you can see them easily and take aim.

So, ridiculousness aside, just how would you spot such people? Just how would you know they are at work? Or do you propose that the mentor-disciple thingy is so potent, it will protect against that too?

So, is your proposition that all the nice people who say, act and do like good disciples should - they're OK.

All the slightly dodgy ones, like me for instance, who question, analyse and probe, we'll we are so obviously the ones to be wary of. Yeah, 'I've got a nice big sign on my back Chas', I'm a real threat.

Get real Chas, it's a leitmotive throughout human history that deceivers will always say and do what people want them too in order to get what they want and they will always have a plausible reason to cover any inconsistentcies. Only people who are solidly based, rely on the Law and take careful notice are not deceived and cannot be so.

You still haven't taken up the challenge to make a side-by-side comparison of Mr Ikeda's 1979 and 2009 lectures on the same Gosho Chas. Why not? You called me out on the shift of emphasis from Gohonzon to mentor-disciple relationship. I responded, as I said I would with direct proof, fully referenced, of that shift. And since you have been silent on that point. You refuse to look, or it's convenient for you not to, just let the indisputable point quietly drop...interesting behaviour.

Be streafast in you armour but since you are using militaristic analogies, you might take lesson from Agincourt to see the perils of becoming so locked in, bogged down and inflexible. That way defeat lies but it is your choice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

The flexible, who are fleet of foot and who have superior range, they, not the elites, win. And I thought in one of your posts that you said you knew how to fight, clearly not...

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Chas. Dec 22, 2015 7:21 AM

Nah. The armor of mentor and disciple is both light and flexible and worth wearing. Without it you an unprotected from evils like that with befell David [Cole]. Your analogy is more befitting Hitler's wunderwaffe foolishness.

And I am not blind to evil. However, there is a long distance between espousing higher principles, which I do, and leveling charges, which I won't do inside the sangha.

In your analysis of "shift", are you allowing for evolution of thought and of learning from experience? Dealing with the corruptions and evils of the NST priesthood was an advanced education in Buddhist ethics and philosophy in action. We would be poor students if we did not learn from it. Those shifts you describe are partly from that, partly from the wisdom of age and reflection.

Even though the 69,384 character Lotus Sutra and the Law are immutable, our understanding of it grows and changes. WE change.

-Chas.

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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 22, 2015 9:31 AM
[9 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]

Lool, reliance on the Law protects us from evil and only that. There are some things that should not change with learning from experience, reliance on the Law, which is the true object of worship and ultimately self reliance, is one of them. Your defence is weak.

If you have Omamori, you should know that difference well. The Gohonzon is subtly different because it's bearer has the faith to perform the protectivr function. Or didn't they tell you that when you received yours, if in fact it was bestowed on you.

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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 22, 2015 10:36 AM
[9 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]
[And here is where Iain make a grievous error of miscategorization of the sutra.]

And just to be absolutely doubly without doubt, whilst the Immeasurable Meanings sutra, is indeed mentioned in the introduction to the Lotus Sutra, note that it is referenced there as a distinct entity. Also note the following passage, which you omitted to quote.

If you followed Nichiren's Buddhism as you claim, you would not quote a provisional teaching and treat it as equal to the Lotus Sutra, even if it is the opening sutra to the Lotus Sutra.

It is still provisional in comparison with the latter. The passage you omitted is the reason this is so. It clearly sets out why the Lotus is superior. What follows that passage is the unfolding of the wisdom of all Buddhas. Immeasurable meanings does not give one that, the Lotus does.

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/1#para-149

"At that time the world-honored one, surrounded by the four kinds of believers, received offerings and tokens of respect and was honored and praised. And for the sake of the bodhisattvas he preached the great vehicle sutra entitled Immeasurable Meanings, a teaching to instruct the bodhisattvas, one that is guarded and kept in mind by the buddhas.


When the Buddha had finished preaching this sutra, he sat with his legs crossed in the lotus position and entered into the samadhi of the origin of immeasurable meanings, his body and mind never moving. At that time heaven rained down mandarava flowers, great mandarava flowers, manjushaka flowers, and great manjushaka flowers, scattering them over the Buddha and over the great assembly, and everywhere the buddha world quaked and trembled in six different ways."

Fat lot of good studying the 'Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra' regularly has done you if you cannot understand this most basic point. There seems to be a distinct lack of wisdom in your approach and understanding.

May I suggest you go back to the Gosho and carefully read Nichiren's writings on the matter until you grasp the point?

You might also ponder how the events unfold from there on. Later in that chapter, to understand why Immeasurable Meanings is provisional. Later in that same chapter (note the term 'great Law'):

(ibid)

"At that time Manjushri said to the bodhisattva mahasattva Maitreya and the other great men: "Good men, I suppose that the Buddha, the world-honored one, wishes now to expound the great Law, to rain down the rain of the great Law, to blow the conch of the great Law, to beat the drum of the great Law, to elucidate the meaning of the great Law.

Good men, in the past I have seen this auspicious portent among the buddhas. They emitted beams of light like this, and after that they expounded the great Law. Therefore we should know that now, when the present Buddha manifests this light, he will do likewise. He wishes to cause all living beings to hear and understand the Law, which is difficult for all the world to believe. Therefore he has manifested this auspicious portent."

So in other words, the Lotus Sutra is clearly telling us that this great Law has not been expounded in Immeasurable Meanings. The Buddha then starts expounding this great Law in chapter 2 of the Lotus Sutra.

Parroting terms like 'theoretical ichinen sanzen' and bandying them around is of little use if one can't distinguish provisional and true and if one thinks the object of worship is simply an expedient concept that can be de-emphasised and legitimately replaced with the mentor-disciple relationship because of acquiring learning since the time of practicing with the priesthood.

But thank you for confirming that a change of doctrine has in fact taken place.

___________________________________________________________

Chas. Dec 27, 2015 8:19 AM

I think you are incorrect.

The SGI Dictionary says this:
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/I/14

. Immeasurable Meanings Sutra (Chin Wu-liang-i-ching;
. Muryōgi-kyō): Also known as the Sutra of Immeasurable
. Meanings. A sutra regarded as the introductory teaching, or
. prologue, to the Lotus Sutra. It was translated into
. Chinese in 481 by Dharmagathayashas, a monk from central
. India. The sutra describes the Buddha’s preaching on Eagle
. Peak and consists of three chapters. In the first, or
. “Virtuous Practices,” chapter, Bodhisattva Great Adornment
. praises Shakyamuni Buddha in verse on behalf of the
. assembly. This verse section contains the passage known as
. the thirty-four negations, referring to the substance or
. essence of the Buddha. In the second chapter, “Preaching
. the Law,” Shakyamuni explains that all principles and
. meanings derive from a single Law. He then declares:
. “Because their [people’s] natures and desires are not
. alike, I preached the Law in various different ways.
. Preaching the Law in various different ways, I made use of
. the power of expedient means. But in these more than forty
. years, I have not yet revealed the truth,” indicating that
. all the prior teachings were provisional and expedient. The
. final, “Ten Benefits,” chapter explains that by practicing
. this sutra one can obtain ten kinds of blessings. The
. Buddha encourages Bodhisattva Great Adornment and the other
. eighty thousand bodhisattvas present to propagate the
. sutra, and they vow to do so.

Nothing that I can see, other than from you, specifically describes the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra as a provisional teaching.

They say the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra is "A sutra regarded as the introductory teaching, or prologue, to the Lotus Sutra."

The Immeasurable Meanings Sutra is preached after Myoho-Renge-Kyo is heard in the title of chapter one, or introduction to the Lotus Sutra. It is preached inside the Lotus Sutra and nowhere else, as far as I can see.

Provisional teachings cannot follow the utterance of the title of the Lotus Sutra.

And provisional teachings do not know the word provisional, that distinction is first drawn in the Lotus Sutra.

Now that is not to say it is the highest teaching, because it is not complete, in the same way that the Nirvana Sutra is not provisional, but is also not complete. Only the Lotus Sutra is both complete and final.

The first word of the title of the Lotus Sutra (Myo) encompasses all of the Lotus Sutra, according to Nichiren Daishonin. After the Lotus Sutra is preached, none of the Buddha's teachings are provisional.

In fact, I believe it is in the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra that Shakyamuni describes first what is provisional and what is true (in the above references.)

Note that in the "Immeasurable Meanings Sutra, chapter 3, Ten Benefits", it refers to the Lotus Sutra as "this sutra", not "that sutra". This implies, if not identity, at least that it [the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra] is non-provisional.

If a provisional teaching were used to support the complete and final teaching of the Lotus Sutra as the highest teaching in Buddhism, this would be a structural flaw in the support [of} the highest teaching, I believe.

Here are those 59 instances, capitalized:
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Prologue/3

. “If there are living beings who are able to hear THIS
. SUTRA, they will gain great profit. Why? Because if they
. can practice it, then without fail they will quickly gain
. unsurpassed enlightenment. As for those living beings who
. are unable to hear it, one should know that they will lose
. great profit, for though immeasurable, boundless,
. inconceivable asamkhya kalpas may pass, they will in the
. end fail to gain unsurpassed enlightenment. Why? Because
. they will not know about the great direct way to
. enlightenment, but will travel perilous byways beset by
. numerous hindrances and trials.
.
. “World-Honored One, THIS SUTRA is beyond comprehension. We
. beg that the world-honored one, taking pity upon this great
. assembly, will broadly expound the profound and
. unfathomable matters contained in THIS SUTRA. World-Honored
. One, where does THIS SUTRA come from, where does it lead
. to, where does it abide, that it should possess such
. immeasurable benefits, such inconceivable powers, assuring
. to the multitude the quick attainment of supreme perfect
. enlightenment?”
.
. At that time the world-honored one said to the bodhisattva
. mahasattva Great Adornment: “Excellent, excellent, good
. men. It is just so, just so, just as you have spoken. Good
. men, THIS SUTRA I preach is profound, profound, truly
. profound! Why do I say so? Because it assures that the
. multitude will quickly attain unsurpassed enlightenment.
. Because once one hears it, one can uphold all the
. doctrines. Because for living beings it brings great profit
. and enrichment. Because practicing it, one travels a great
. direct way free of hindrances and trials.
.
. “Good men, you ask where THIS SUTRA comes from, where it
. leads, where it abides. Listen carefully and with
. attention. Good men, THIS SUTRA issues originally from the
. dwelling and abode of the buddhas. Its aim is to lead all
. living beings to conceive the desire for enlightenment. And
. it abides in the practices carried out by bodhisattvas.
. Good men, this is where THIS SUTRA comes from, where it
. leads, and where it abides. Therefore THIS SUTRA is able to
. possess such immeasurable benefits, such inconceivable
. powers, and to assure to the multitude the quick attainment
. of unsurpassed enlightenment.
.
. “Now, good men, would you like to hear about the ten
. inconceivable benefits and powers that THIS SUTRA possesses?”
.
. Bodhisattva Great Adornment said, “Please, we wish very
. much to hear!”
.
. The Buddha said: “Good men, the first is that THIS SUTRA
. can cause bodhisattvas who have not yet conceived the
. desire for enlightenment to conceive such a desire. It can
. cause those who are without compassion or benevolence to
. nurture compassionate minds. It can cause those who delight
. in killing and slaughter to nurture minds of great pity. It
. can cause those filled with envy and jealousy to nurture
. minds of joyful acceptance. It can cause those who are
. begrudging and attached to things to nurture minds capable
. of relinquishing. It can cause those who are close-fisted
. and greedy to nurture minds of almsgiving. It can cause
. those of abundant arrogance and pride to nurture minds that
. uphold the precepts. It can cause those much given to wrath
. and anger to nurture forbearing minds. It can cause those
. who are indolent and lazy to nurture minds of diligence. It
. can cause those who are scatterbrained and disordered to
. nurture minds devoted to meditation. It can cause those
. with much ignorance and folly to nurture minds of wisdom.
. It can cause those who are not yet capable of saving others
. to nurture minds set upon saving others. It can cause those
. who practice the ten evil acts to nurture minds devoted to
. the ten good acts. It can cause those who delight too much
. in the conditioned to strive for minds fixed on the
. unconditioned. It can cause those whose minds are given to
. regression to cultivate minds of non-regression. It can
. cause those given to outflows to nurture minds free of
. outflows. It can cause those with many earthly desires to
. nurture minds that cleanse and extinguish such desires.
.
. “Good men, this is called the first benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the second inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: If living beings are able to hear THIS
. SUTRA, though they hear only one recitation, one verse, or
. just one line, they will be able to comprehend and master
. hundreds, thousands, millions of meanings, so many that
. although immeasurable numbers of kalpas should pass, they
. would never be able to finish expounding the teaching they
. have received and uphold. Why? Because the meanings of this
. teaching are immeasurable.
.
. “Good men, THIS SUTRA may be likened to a single seed from
. which grow hundreds, thousands, ten thousands of other
. seeds, and from each of these seeds in turn grow more seeds
. numbering in the hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, so
. that they keep on increasing in this way until they become
. immeasurable. THIS SUTRA is like this. From a single Law
. grow hundreds and thousands of meanings, and from each of
. those hundreds and thousands in turn grow more, numbering
. in the hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, so that they
. keep on increasing in this way until there are an
. immeasurable, boundless number of meanings. That is why
. THIS SUTRA is called Immeasurable Meanings.
.
. “Good men, this is called the second benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the third inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: If living beings are able to hear THIS
. SUTRA, though they hear only one recitation, one verse, or
. just one line, and are thereby able to comprehend and
. master hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of
. meanings, then although they have earthly desires, it will
. be as though they were free of earthly desires, and they
. will go in and out of the realm of birth and death without
. thoughts of fear or dread. Toward living beings they will
. acquire minds of pity and tenderness, and they will
. confront all phenomena with brave and stalwart thoughts.
.
. “They will be like a young man of great strength who can
. lift and hold aloft various heavy objects. The person who
. upholds THIS SUTRA will in like manner be able to shoulder
. the weighty treasure of unsurpassed enlightenment and bear
. living beings on his back, carrying them out of the path of
. birth and death.
.
. “Even before he is capable of saving himself he will be
. capable of saving others. He will be like a ship’s captain
. whose body is afflicted with grave illness, whose four
. limbs fail to function properly, and who remains on this
. shore. But he has a sound and durable ship and can always
. explain to others the articles needed to get them over the
. water, so that by providing these he can insure their
. crossing. The person who upholds THIS SUTRA will be like
. this. Though he is afflicted with the body of one who
. dwells in the five realms, constantly beset by one hundred
. and eight illnesses, and though he remains on this shore,
. the shore of ignorance, aging, and death, yet he will
. possess this durable great vehicle sutra, Immeasurable
. Meanings, which explains how living beings can be saved and
. how, if one practices it as it directs, one can escape from
. birth and death.
.
. “Good men, this is called the third benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the fourth inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: If living beings are able to hear THIS
. SUTRA, though they hear only one recitation, one verse, or
. just one line, they will be filled with brave and stalwart
. thoughts. Though they have not yet saved themselves, they
. will be able to save others. They will become companions of
. the bodhisattvas, and the buddhas, the thus come ones, will
. at all times turn toward such persons when they expound the
. Law. And once these persons have heard it, they will be
. able to accept and uphold all of it, abide by it without
. violation, propagate it for the sake of others, and preach
. it widely in accordance with what is appropriate.
.
. “Good men, such persons will be like a prince newly born to
. the king of a country and his queen. When he is one day,
. two days, or seven days old; one month, two months, or
. seven months old; one year, two years, or seven years old,
. though he is not yet able to manage the affairs of state,
. already he is respected and looked up to by the ministers
. and the people. He is a companion to the sons of other
. great kings, and the king and queen love and dote on him
. and are forever talking of him. Why? Because he is still
. just a child.
.
. “Good men, the person who upholds THIS SUTRA will be like
. this. The buddhas, who are the king, and the sutra, which
. is the queen, join together in harmony to give birth to
. this bodhisattva son. If the bodhisattva is able to hear
. THIS SUTRA, whether it is one line or one verse, one
. repetition, two repetitions, ten, a hundred, a thousand,
. ten thousand, or immeasurable, countless repetitions equal
. to the sands of a million ten thousand Ganges Rivers,
. though he cannot fully grasp the extent of its truth, and
. though he cannot make the lands of the major world system
. quake and tremble or with brahma sounds like the roll of
. thunder turn the great wheel of the Law, already he will be
. revered and looked up to by all the four kinds of believers
. and eight kinds of guardians, and he will have the great
. bodhisattvas for his companions. He will enter deeply into
. the secret Law of the buddhas and will be able to expound
. it without error or omission. He will be constantly guarded
. and kept in mind by the buddhas, who will pity and love
. him, favor and shelter him, because he is new in these
. studies.
.
. “Good men, this is called the fourth benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the fifth inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: If there are good men or good women
. who, while the Buddha is in the world or after he has
. passed into extinction, accept, uphold, read, recite, or
. copy this profound, unsurpassed great vehicle Immeasurable
. Meanings Sutra, then although such persons are still bound
. and encumbered by earthly desires, unable to remove
. themselves from the concerns of the ordinary individual,
. yet they will be able to manifest and show to others the
. way of the great bodhisattva. They will be able to expand a
. single day so that it covers a hundred kalpas, or compress
. a hundred kalpas into a single day, causing other living
. beings to rejoice and give wholehearted assent [to their
. words].
.
. “Good men, these good men and good women will be like
. little dragons who, only seven days after they are born,
. are already able to make clouds rise up and rain to fall.
.
. “Good men, this is called the fifth benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the sixth inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: If good men or good women, while the
. Buddha is in the world or after he has passed into
. extinction, accept, uphold, read, or recite THIS SUTRA,
. then although they are still encumbered by earthly desires,
. they will be able to preach the Law for living beings and
. enable them to break away from earthly desires, from the
. realm of birth and death, and to cut off all suffering.
. Once living beings have heard them, they will carry out
. religious practice, gaining the doctrines, gaining various
. stages, and gaining the ways, just the same as if they had
. been taught by the Buddha, the thus come one.
.
. “Suppose, for example, there is a prince who, although
. still just a boy, is entrusted with the management of
. affairs of state because the king is abroad on a journey or
. has been seized by illness. If at that time the prince
. follows the king’s orders and abides by the law in issuing
. directives to the various clerks and government officials,
. guiding the flow of affairs in a proper manner, then each
. of the people of the state will comply with the spirit of
. his instructions, and the order that prevails will be like
. that when the king himself is in charge.
.
. “The good men and good women who uphold THIS SUTRA will be
. the same as this. Whether the Buddha is in the world or has
. passed into extinction, if these good men, though they have
. not yet been able to reach the stage of immobility, follow
. the Buddha’s methods of preaching and giving instruction
. when they expound the Law, then once living beings have
. heard them and single-mindedly applied themselves to
. practice, they will be able to cut off earthly desires,
. gain the doctrines, gain various stages, and gain the ways.
.
. “Good men, this is called the sixth benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the seventh inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: If good men or good women, while the
. Buddha is in the world or after he has passed into
. extinction, are able to hear THIS SUTRA and rejoice and put
. faith and hope in it, greeting it as something rare; if
. they accept, uphold, read, recite, copy, explain, preach,
. and practice it as it directs, conceiving a desire for
. enlightenment, cultivating good roots, nurturing minds of
. great compassion, and desiring to save all living beings
. from their sufferings, then although they have not yet been
. able to practice the six paramitas, the six paramitas will
. of themselves appear before them. In their present bodies
. they will be able to gain the truth of birthlessness, their
. earthly desires and their sufferings of birth and death
. will in one moment be cast off and destroyed, and they will
. ascend to the seventh stage of the bodhisattva.
.
. “Suppose, for example, there is a stalwart hero who wipes
. out the king’s enemies. Once these enemies have been
. destroyed, the king rejoices greatly and takes half of his
. kingdom and presents it all to the hero as a fief. The good
. men and good women who uphold THIS SUTRA will be similar to
. this. They will be the bravest and most heroic of all
. practitioners. And though they do not seek for them, the
. six paramitas, those treasures of the Law, will come to
. them naturally. Their enemies, birth and death, will of
. themselves be scattered and destroyed, and they will be
. enlightened to the truth of birthlessness, which is like
. receiving half the buddha land in fief and its treasures as
. a gift to enjoy in tranquillity.
.
. “Good men, this is called the seventh benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the eighth inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: If there are good men or good women
. who, while the Buddha is in the world or after he has
. passed into extinction, are able to obtain THIS SUTRA, they
. will revere and put faith in it as though they were gazing
. upon the Buddha’s body, and will not let themselves treat
. it any differently. They will love and delight in THIS
. SUTRA, accept, uphold, read, recite, copy, and do obeisance
. to it, putting it into practice as the Law directs,
. strictly observing the precepts, firmly persevering,
. carrying out the paramita of almsgiving, cultivating
. profound pity and compassion, and preaching this
. unsurpassed great vehicle Immeasurable Meanings Sutra far
. and wide for the sake of others.
.
. “If there are persons who have never believed in the
. existence of sinfulness or blessing, then they will show
. them THIS SUTRA and, employing various kinds of expedient
. means, will convert them and prevail upon them to believe.
. Through the authority and power of the sutra, such persons
. will be able to develop minds of faith, abruptly changing
. their direction. And once having developed minds of faith,
. because they proceed with courage and diligence, they will
. be able to acquire the dignity, virtue, authority, and
. power of THIS SUTRA, to gain the ways, and to gain various
. stages.
.
. “Therefore these good men and women, because of the
. benefits they gain through being converted, will in their
. present forms as men and women be able to gain the truth of
. birthlessness, to gain the upper level, and to become
. companions of the bodhisattvas. Quickly they will be able
. to lead living beings to success, to purify the buddha
. land, and before long to gain unsurpassed enlightenment.
.
. “Good men, this is called the eighth benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the ninth inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: If there are good men or good women
. who, while the Buddha is in the world or after he has
. passed into extinction, are able to obtain THIS SUTRA, who
. leap with joy on having gained what they never had before,
. who accept, uphold, read, recite, copy, and offer alms to
. it and for the sake of the multitude, observing
. distinctions, expound and preach the message of THIS SUTRA
. far and wide, then in one instant they will be able to wipe
. out the lingering guilt and heavy obstacle of their deeds
. in former existences and to attain a state of purity.
. Thereafter they will acquire great eloquence, step by step
. adorn themselves with the paramitas, acquire various
. samadhis including the shuramgama samadhi, enter the great
. gate of the dharani teachings, gain the power of diligent
. effort, and quickly attain the highest levels. They will be
. skilled at dividing their bodies and producing emanations
. of themselves, dispatching them to the lands in the ten
. directions to rescue and save all living beings in the
. twenty-five realms of existence from their dire sufferings,
. enabling them all to gain emancipation. This is because the
. sutra possesses this power.
.
. “Good men, this is called the ninth benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, the tenth inconceivable benefit and power of
. THIS SUTRA is this: Suppose there are good men or good
. women who, while the Buddha is in the world or after he has
. passed into extinction, are able to obtain THIS SUTRA, and
. are filled with great joy, greeting it as something rare.
. After they themselves have accepted, upheld, read, recited,
. copied, offered alms, and put it into practice as it
. directs, they will also be able far and wide to encourage
. those in household life and those who have left such life
. to accept, uphold, read, recite, copy, offer alms, explain,
. and preach the sutra and practice it as the Law directs.
. Because they have the power to cause others to practice
. THIS SUTRA, others will gain the ways and gain various
. stages. All this will come from the fact that these good
. men and good women are moved to compassion and have the
. power to convert others diligently. As a result, these good
. men and good women in their present bodies will be able to
. gain immeasurable dharani teachings.
.
. “While they are still at the stage of ordinary persons,
. while they are just beginning, they will find themselves
. naturally capable of committing themselves to countless
. asamkhyas of broad resolutions and great vows,
. demonstrating profound determination to save all living
. beings, exercising great compassion, rescuing multitudes
. far and wide from their sufferings, gathering to themselves
. a mass of good roots, and bringing enrichment and benefit
. to all. They will expound the moisture of the Law, pouring
. it everywhere to water the dry and barren places. They will
. show themselves able to dispense the medicine of the Law to
. living beings, bringing peace and happiness to all.
. Gradually they will come forth and ascend until they reside
. at the stage of the clouds of the Law. The moisture of
. their favor will water all places; nothing will be outside
. their compassion. They will encompass all living beings who
. suffer, causing them to enter upon the buddha path. And
. because of all this, these people will before long gain
. supreme perfect enlightenment.
.
. “Good men, this is called the tenth benefit and
. inconceivable power of THIS SUTRA.
.
. “Good men, this unsurpassed great vehicle Immeasurable
. Meanings Sutra fully possesses great and marvelous
. supernatural powers such as these. It is worthy of
. unsurpassed veneration, for it can enable ordinary persons
. all to attain the stage of sage; leaving forever the realm
. of birth and death, they will all gain freedom. Therefore
. THIS SUTRA is called Immeasurable Meanings. It can cause
. all living beings who are still at the level of ordinary
. persons to put forth immeasurable shoots that will grow
. into the way of the bodhisattva, to plant trees of benefits
. that will flourish, put out branches, and spread. Therefore
. THIS SUTRA is dubbed the possessor of inconceivable
. benefits and power.”
.
. At that time the bodhisattva mahasattva Great Adornment and
. the others of the eighty thousand bodhisattvas mahasattva,
. speaking in a single voice addressed the Buddha, saying:
. “World-Honored One, as the Buddha has preached, this
. profound, subtle, wonderful, unsurpassed great vehicle
. Immeasurable Meanings Sutra is true and correct in word and
. principle, worthy of unsurpassed veneration. It is guarded
. and protected by all the buddhas of the three existences.
. There is no devil host, no congregation of non-Buddhist
. believers who can invade it, nor can it be destroyed by any
. erroneous views or accidents of birth and death.
.
. “Thus it is that THIS SUTRA possesses ten benefits and
. inconceivable powers such as have been described. It brings
. great enrichment and benefit to all living beings
. immeasurable in number. It causes all bodhisattvas
. mahasattva each one to gain the samadhi of immeasurable
. meanings. Or perhaps they will gain hundreds and thousands
. of dharani teachings, or they will be able to gain the
. various levels and various types of cognition of the
. bodhisattva, or they will gain the four-way and four-stage
. enlightenment of the cause-awakened one and the arhat. The
. world-honored one in his compassion and mercy has been
. pleased to preach the Law for us in this way, enabling us
. to gain the great profits of the Law. This is most
. wonderful, something never known before. The compassion and
. favor of the world-honored one is indeed difficult to repay!”
.
. When they had finished speaking these words, the major
. world system quaked and trembled in six different ways.
. From the sky there rained down various kinds of heavenly
. flowers, heavenly utpala flowers, padma flowers, kumuda
. flowers, pundarika flowers. There also rained down
. countless varieties of heavenly incense, heavenly robes,
. heavenly necklaces, and priceless heavenly jewels that came
. tumbling and turning through the air and descended as
. offerings to the Buddha and the great assembly of
. bodhisattvas and voice-hearers. Heavenly vessels from
. heavenly kitchens were heaped and overflowing with a
. hundred heavenly flavors; merely observing their forms and
. smelling their aromas was enough to make one feel
. satisfied. Heavenly streamers, heavenly banners, heavenly
. canopies, and wonderful heavenly playthings were ranged
. here and there, heavenly musical instruments played, and
. songs were sung to praise the Buddha.
.
. Then in the eastern region the buddha worlds numerous as
. Ganges sands also quaked and trembled in six different
. ways, raining down heavenly flowers, heavenly incense,
. heavenly robes, heavenly necklaces, priceless heavenly
. jewels, heavenly vessels from heavenly kitchens with a
. hundred heavenly flavors, so that observing their forms and
. smelling their aromas was enough to make one feel
. satisfied. Heavenly streamers, heavenly banners, heavenly
. canopies, and wonderful heavenly playthings were ranged
. here and there, heavenly musical instruments played, and
. songs were sung in praise of the buddhas and the great
. assemblies of bodhisattvas and voice-hearers there, and the
. same occurred in the southern, western, and northern
. regions, in the four intermediate directions, and in the
. upper and lower regions.
.
. At that time the Buddha addressed the bodhisattva
. mahasattva Great Adornment and the others of the eighty
. thousand bodhisattvas mahasattva, saying: “You should
. approach THIS SUTRA with profound feelings of respect,
. practice it as the Law directs, convert all beings far and
. wide, and propagate it with a diligent mind. At all times
. be industrious in its cause, guard it day and night, and
. enable living beings, each one of them, to enjoy the
. profits of the Law. You will then in truth be showing great
. compassion and great pity. Use the transcendental power of
. your vows to guard and protect THIS SUTRA, and do not let
. it be impeded by doubt. In the time given you, you must
. without fail cause it to spread throughout Jambudvipa,
. making certain that all living beings are able to see and
. hear it, to read, recite, copy, and offer alms to it. Then
. as a result you yourselves will be able quickly to gain
. supreme perfect enlightenment.”
.
. At that time the bodhisattva mahasattva Great Adornment and
. the others of the eighty thousand bodhisattvas mahasattva
. rose from their seats and proceeded to where the Buddha
. was. They bowed their heads to the ground in obeisance
. before the Buddha’s feet and circled around him a hundred
. thousand times. Then they advanced, knelt on one knee, and
. all blending their voices in unison, spoke to the Buddha,
. saying: “World-Honored One, we have been fortunate enough
. to receive the compassion and mercy of the world-honored
. one, who for our sake has preached this profound, subtle,
. wonderful, unsurpassed great vehicle Immeasurable Meanings
. Sutra. Respectfully we accept the Buddha’s charge. After
. the thus come one has passed into extinction, we will
. propagate THIS SUTRA far and wide, causing all beings
. everywhere to accept, uphold, read, recite, copy, and offer
. alms to it. We beg you to have no concern or fret on that
. account. We will employ the power of our vows to enable all
. living beings everywhere to see, hear, read, recite, copy,
. and offer alms to THIS SUTRA, and to gain the sutra’s
. marvelous supernatural blessings.”

In spite of the fact that I think you are wrong, I do not means this as criticism of you, Iain, remembering the immortal words of Bodhisattva Never Disparaging:

“I have profound reverence for you, I would never dare treat you with disparagement or arrogance. Why? Because you are all practicing the bodhisattva way and are certain to attain Buddhahood.”

I don't know what this has to do with a change in doctrine in the SGI, but I'm sure you will explain that.

-Chas.

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Chas. Dec 27, 2015 8:21 AM

Oh, and happy holiday! I hope you and yours are doing well.

-Chas.

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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 28, 2015 4:21 AM
[3 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]

Thanks Chas and likewise. My holiday has been filled with good people and good vibes. Truely I am blessed in this regard as I hope you are also. But the world is still a difficult place and many are not so fortunate, my enjoyment is tempered by this fact.

The change in doctrine should be obvious from the thread. I presented a like for like, side by side comparison of Mr Ikeda's lectures on the same gosho, one in 1979 the other in 2009 to support my assertion that Gohonzon had been de-emphasised and replaced by an emphasis on the mentor-disciple relationship. I did thus because you disputed my assertion. You did not address my comparison directly but made the statement to the effect that the change can be explained by learning since the SGI split with the priesthood (and so presumably legitimate). This is the change in doctrine. To stop emphasising Gohonzon and trying to develop correct faith in it as a means to enlightenment and instead emphasise the mentor-disciple relationship and develop a correct relationship with the mentor as a means to enlightenment is a fundamental change of doctrine. Such a change is not legitimate in terms of Nichiren's teaching nor in terms of SGI teaching of that earlier period. It cannot be explained away by claiming it is learning acquisition since the priesthood split. It is just wrong in terms of the two criteria I set out above.

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Chas. Dec 28, 2015 7:19 AM

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 4:21:24 AM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks Chas and likewise. [Snip]
>
> The change in doctrine should be obvious [Snip]

You are inserting another topic again, instead of dealing with my refutation of your claim that the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra is provisional: it is not and you are wrong about that.

The Lotus Sutra is the highest teaching, both complete and final.

The accompanying sutras are concurrent with the Lotus Sutra, and the Nirvana Sutra is after the Lotus Sutra. None of those are provisional and therefore candidates for discarding.

Before means "preceding the beginning of" and not "concurrent with".

"I have profound reverence for you, I would never dare treat you with disparagement or arrogance. Why? Because you are all practicing the bodhisattva way and are certain to attain Buddhahood." - Bodhisattva Never Disparaging.

-Chas.
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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 28, 2015 9:07 AM
[3 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]

I answered the point on provisional/true in the other thread and I did not 'change' topic. Read your own posts Chas, you asked about the change of doctrine, so I answered that.

You are conflating provisional with discarding. Again you make the same error. The two are not synonymous but I can see why you might do that. Again, this comes down to mixing frames.

With regard to before and after versus concurrent, it simply isn't relevant. Even if Immeasurable Meanings were preached at the same time as the great Law is expounded, it makes no difference. The key point is that it is a separate entity and in being so, it does not teach or reveal the great Law. That is why it is inferior, the timing of its preaching or whether or not it is referred in the Sutra, is if no consequence.

In so many of these exchanges, you argue like a dog refusing to let go of its bone, only to have it finally prised from your jaws with incontrovertible evidence, then you run off to the next bone to pick. When questioned on the non response to the proof, you disemble, play dumb or attempt to distract.

It's not hard Chas, just read the Gosho and chant sincerely about it. Quoting isn't the same as studying. What I can't understand is that people of my generation of SGI were taught to do that and that remained so until about mid 2000's, so how comes you weren't?

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iainx...@gmail.com Dec 28, 2015 10:59 AM
[3 days until Iain's secret departure from the SGI.]
[And here is where Iain makes a final connection to the Mentor before departing the SGI.]

Against my better judgment, I'll throw you a bone Chas, this is probably a good place to start in the Gosho to understand the relative merits of each Sutra and the collection of Immeasurable Meanings, Lotus & Nirvana sutras.

In the first paragraph of the quote below, Nichiren makes the distinction between the three Sutras mentioned above and all other sutras.

In the second paragraph, he makes distinctions between these three sutras. Note that Nichiren is treating each sutra as a distinct entity. Note also that he reserves the highest place for the Lotus Sutra and note his reasons for doing so. So yes, Immeasurable Meanings is Ghee but no, it is not the Lotus Sutra, it is inferior to the latter and so provisional in terms of the latter. Should it be discarded? No but then again it is not necessary for the aims of the Lotus Sutra to be achieved. The Gosho quote below should also help you understand this point.

Put another way, if you were escaping a burning building and you could take one of these three Sutras with you but only one because you could not carry more than one, which would you take with you? There is only one right answer in terms of Nichiren's teachings. More importantly, why would you make that choice, because Nichiren told you too? Or because of the reason Miao-Lo gives below?


King Rinda

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/136#para-4


"[Among all the Buddhist teachings] the Āgama sutras may be compared to the flavor of milk; the Meditation and the other sutras of the Correct and Equal period may be compared to the flavor of cream; the Wisdom sutras may be compared to the flavor of curdled milk; the Flower Garland Sutra may be compared to the flavor of butter; and the Immeasurable Meanings, Lotus, and Nirvana sutras may be compared to the flavor of ghee.

Again, if the Nirvana Sutra is compared to the flavor of ghee, then the Lotus Sutra may be compared to a lord who rules over the five flavors. Thus the Great Teacher Miao-lo stated: “If we discuss the matter from the point of view of the doctrines taught, then the Lotus Sutra stands as the true lord of all the teachings, since it alone preaches ‘opening the provisional and revealing the distant.’ This is the reason that it alone is permitted the word myō, or ‘wonderful’ [in its title].”1 He also said, “Therefore, we understand that the Lotus Sutra is the true lord of the ghee.”

___________________________________________________________

Finally, Iain admits his error, without really understanding the extent of it.

He has doggedly clung to labelling the introductory Immeasurable Means sutra of the Lotus Sutra as provisional, which implies that one of the foundations of the Lotus Sutra is discardable, even arguing that you could leave it to burn.

So many things in the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra, which is concurrently preached inside the Lotus Sutra, are only preached in the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra, that it is difficult to even imagine what Iain considers.

One can summarize the extent of the damage done, by imagining having a tooth knocked out and continuing to smile with a gap-toothed grin. It is the hole, the missing tooth that everyone expects to see that is noticed, and not the smile.

What would happen in Chapter one of the Lotus Sutra when the Buddha starts to preach the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra and then stands there speechless for the good part of an hour? I wouldn't like to consider it.

However, even after admitting his mistake: "I'll throw you a bone Chas", Iain persists in this infamy as he leaves the SGI to start his brand new Iain Buddhism, collecting his brand new Iain Sangha, with himself as brand neww Iain Sensei, closely studying the accreted phrases of his brand new Hurvitz translation of the Lotus Sutra. All brand new!

-Chas.

Quoting from "The Entity of the Mystic Law", Writings of Nichiren Daishonin, p. 427 ...

T'ien-t'ai says, "Even successors of the Buddha of the provisional teachings do not know people who have received instruction from the Buddha of the theoretical teaching, and people taught by that Buddha do not know people who have received instruction from the Buddha of the essential teaching." [Note 36: Possibly a rephrasing of a passage in The Annotations on "The Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra."] The Great Teacher Dengyo explains, "This is a direct way, but it is not the great direct way." [Note 37: A Commentary on the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra.] He also says, "Because they have not yet understood the great direct way to enlightenment." [Note 38: Ibid.] The point being made in these passages is clear.

The bodhisattvas of the teachings preached before the Lotus Sutra or of the theoretical teaching have, in a certain sense, eradicated delusion and gained understanding of truth. Nevertheless, in the light of the essential teaching, they have gained only a temporary cutting off of delusion, not the kind that extends beyond a certain dimension. Therefore, it is said that they have in fact not yet cut off delusion.

Thus, although it is said that the bodhisattvas had already gained entrance [to enlightenment] through the various sutras, the term "gained entrance" is simply applied here in a temporary manner as a means of disparaging the achievement of the people of the two vehicles. Therefore, even the great bodhisattvas of the pre-Lotus Sutra teachings and the theoretical teaching arrive at the realization of the lotus of the Buddha only when they are exposed to the essential teaching, and achieve a true cutting off of delusion only when they hear the teachings of the "Life Span" chapter.