As you may know I respect everyone deeply, I do not despise anyone, not
even a little, or look
down on anyone with contempt, because EVERYONE has the CAPACITY to
become a Buddha of Namu Myo-Ho Renge Kyo, if they believe in Namu Myo-Ho
Renge Kyo and practice..
@lex

iainx...@gmail.com

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Oct 14, 2015, 2:42:12 PM10/14/15

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Nice Lex, I agree. :)

Hi Chas, "who's ya daddy..." ;)

Be well guys :)

Alex Beauroy

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Nov 26, 2015, 4:40:28 AM11/26/15

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http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/20
Worth reading, first, read again, and

iainx...@gmail.com

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Nov 27, 2015, 5:36:50 PM11/27/15

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Thanks Alex :) Yes, spot on as usual. I think I could do with reading and 're reading this. It's all to easy to fall into a disparaging attitude and forget Never Disparaging's attitude. Thanks for the reminder and for refocusing me back on what's really important in Nichiren's teaching :D much appreciated.

I hope all is good with you.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Nov 28, 2015, 10:05:48 AM11/28/15

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Chas, I'm in the odd position if agreeing with one if your statement!!! But note the your view expressed below is inconsistent with the views (in your other postings) on the mentor-disciple relationship as well being at odds with some of Mr Ikeda's teaching on that relationship.

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Dec 5, 2015, 5:29:33 AM12/5/15

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I hear you screaming at me again. with these kind of expression : """

Yes. You do not need to go through the High Priest."""

but a part from that, you 'll be delighted if I register as a member of
SGI and give big "offerings" to your "Sensei"!
Just to say that I have a conviction that SGI has nothing to do with
what the scriptures have meant with the category of : "Sangha", please !!!!
Give us a brake!!!
B T W I've noticed in your contribution in an another thread, so you
have quoted the "Repaying debts of gratitude" In this gosho Nichiren
himself recommends gratitude to the Priesthood.
@lex

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 5, 2015, 8:26:31 AM12/5/15

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Hi Lex, I hope you are well :)

I'm sure that was directed at Chas, rather than me?

As you know I'm an SGI member but as I hope you'll also know my stance on mentor-disciple and on the 'war with NST' is significantly different from Chas. And just to be really clear, I would not have you leave and organisation that you are comfortable practicing with and from what I can see, teaches you to embrace the Gohonzon correctly and build correct faith.

I do not regard you as a slanderer. In fact, in my admitted limited experience of you, you make a pretty good case for Shoshinkai and the priesthood, in the way you conduct yourself. I must say you have taught me a thing or two, for which I am grateful. For example, you have ably led the way with never disparaging *Gassho*. You have exhibited humour and humaness, yet are serious where it counts. I really wish I could say the same of Chas, a fellow SGI member.

I do not recognise much of what he demonstrates as being representative of the NST/SGI that shaped my faith. Although, it is with regret that I see the same direction of travel now in my country within SGI as has already taken hold, if Chas is representative, in SGI USA.

This is why I have called this out, highlighted the shift away from Gohonzon and towards a teaching of mentor-disciple within SGI, supporting my assertion with documentary proof using Mr Ikeda's lectures to make that like for like, side by side comparison.

In my view SGI moves away from Gohonzon and away from reliance on the Law at it's peril. If it moves further towards the mentor-disciple relationship and the reliance on the person that this represents, I believe it will topple over the cliff.

It may survive that fall but it will no longer be the SGI that takes people towards Gohonzon or nurtures sound faith. I will not be toppling over that cliff with it though and I believe that there are many like me, of my generation of believers, who will make the same choice.

Some have already quit, others are growing restless. I stay for the time being because perhaps there is still a chance that the organisation can drink the good medicine.

In his rush to embrace the mentor-disciple relationship and follow 'Sensei', from what I can see, at all cost and for all the Gosho Chas quotes, he does not seem to understand this sentence in 'Repaying Debts of Gratitude':

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/88#para-0

'Until one attains the road that leads to emancipation, one should not defer to the wishes and feelings of one’s parents and teachers, no matter how reasonable they may be.'

And further, he doesn't seem to grasp this passage:

(ibid)

"For ordinary people like us, whomever we may take as our teacher, if we have faith in him, then we will not think him inadequate in any way."

So he doesn't see the dangers. He seems to believe that Mr Ikeda could not possibly have moved in a direction that is now counter to the Law or allow for the possibility that what is being presented as Mr Ikeda's teaching is in fact coming from another source within SGI.

A 'faceless SGI faction' that may or may not have SGI member's interests at heart and may or may not actually be signed up to propagating Nichiren's teaching and developing correct faith and self reliance based on the Law as represented by the unambiguous adoption of the correct object of worship and correct faith in that object of worship, the Gohonzon.

He doesn't see the dangers of relying on Mr Ikeda's (or a faceless SGI faction's) interpretations of the Gosho and the Sutra, rather than studying these directly, without another person's added spin. In short he seems to have overlooked this passage in the same Gosho:

(ibid)

"In a scripture called the Nirvana Sutra, the Buddha says, “Rely on the Law and not upon persons.” Relying on the Law here means relying on the various sutras. Not relying upon persons means not relying on persons other than the Buddha, such as the bodhisattvas Universal Worthy and Manjushrī or the various Buddhist teachers I have enumerated earlier."

If one should not rely on "the bodhisattvas Universal Worthy and Manjushrī or the various Buddhist teachers I have enumerated earlier." one certainly should not rely on Mr Ikeda, not any SGI leaders or for that matter any priests.

That is not to say that such teachers are not and cannot be useful and of value (or that they are automatically erroneous). It's just that such latter commentary should always be secondary to reliance on the Law and direct study and be judged critically on that basis. Because one relies on the Law, one is able to judge wisely.

To maintain his unquestioning belief in the SGI and Mr Ikeda, Chas will probably counter that Mr Ikeda and the SGI practices "EXACTLY" as Nichiren teaches.

Although I have provided the like for like, side by side comparison to demonstrate clearly that Mr Ikeda's lectures on the same Gosho are quite different in emphasis, language and tone, I won't hold my breath that he will give these serious consideration.

Although I have pointed out the limiting of the Law and the extra conditions that Mr Ikeda has placed on it before one can attain enlightenment, a teaching that is not supported by Nichiren and indeed that runs directly counter to it, I suspect these inconvenient facts will be swept aside, glossed over or explained away with tenuous arguments or tangential Gosho quotes.

If he does compare, I expect Chas will do so to try and explain away the change in such a manner that leaves his belief in SGI, his 'leaders' and Mr Ikeda in tact. That will be his choice. If he wants to place faith in 'The Buddha of the SGI' , whatever that is (Butsu Ikeda)?, then there will be no shaking that.

I've always thought that willing suspension of disbelief is great for watching films and theatre but it's a pretty lousy approach to spiritual practice and extremely lousy approach to spiritual teachers. That's why I signed up to a practice that can, has and continues to demonstrate actual proof and that promoted self reliance and independence. In my experience, the SGI and its forerunner NST lay organizations in my country was phenomenally good at doing that. Much less so now.

All that's needed is to chant, have correct faith and worship the correct object of worship. The rest happens quite naturally, they arise from faith :)

If you are minded to reply to this Chas, please don't post the same weak references to the Sutra to try and bolster your very weak argument on mentor-disciple that you're no doubt parroting from having "Mr Ikeda" interpret the Sutra for you in the "Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra" series.

If Nichiren had supported that interpretation, I suggest that he would have made that case directly in Repaying Debts of Gratitude or his major works.

In fact, if you want to characterise the Sutra in that way, the only viable analogue that is also consistent with Nichiren's teachers and reliance on the Law is that the Sutra itself is the 'mentor'. Indeed Nichiren characterises in exactly that way in his Gosho 'On the Object of Worship' which I have quoted elsewhere.

Commentary needs to be consistent with Gosho and Sutra, not the other way around. The latter shouldn't be shoe horned to fit the commentators aims and objectives, no matter how 'noble' or 'value creating' they seem :D

Chas.

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Dec 5, 2015, 10:03:15 AM12/5/15

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SGI members do not have to give a penny in donations, after they receive their Gohonzon (for which there is a reasonable offering.) All donations are private and no one is pressured.

And in the SGI, everyone simply chants to their Gohonzon, which is their connection to Nichiren Daishonin. No one has to go through a leader to connect. Activities involve other people, but everyone is welcome to participate. So your characterization is incorrect.

The High Priests of NST have made it crystal clear that the path to enlightenment goes through them and doing Tozan. This is not Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism.

I would be interested in hearing your quote from the "Repaying Debts of Gratitude" Gosho.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 5, 2015, 12:41:09 PM12/5/15

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No Chas but apparently if SGI members forget the mentor disciple relationship then they can't attain enlightenment. Isn't that right? And doesn't in your country a Gohonzon and membership come with a subscrition to the World Tribune? And aren't members encouraged to study Mr Ikeda's writings and isn't a book store and now an e-book story in place to help them do that? And aren't members encouraged to donate to the SGI, especially to make a cause to break through financial Karma? Chas I'm an SGI member, different country so some differences (like subscription's to our mag don't come as part of the new member package) but I know how it rolls, don't present an inaccurate view, it's not honest.

Chas.

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Dec 6, 2015, 8:47:02 AM12/6/15

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On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 9:41:09 AM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> No Chas but apparently if SGI members forget the mentor disciple relationship then they can't attain enlightenment. Isn't that right? And doesn't in your country a Gohonzon and membership come with a subscrition to the World Tribune? And aren't members encouraged to study Mr Ikeda's writings and isn't a book store and now an e-book story in place to help them do that? And aren't members encouraged to donate to the SGI, especially to make a cause to break through financial Karma? Chas I'm an SGI member, different country so some differences (like subscription's to our mag don't come as part of the new member package) but I know how it rolls, don't present an inaccurate view, it's not honest.

Encouragement is not demanding. Many members are poor, and can only offer pennies.

Pennies are great.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 6, 2015, 9:07:00 AM12/6/15

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That's very true Chas but you need to be even handed, honest and transparent. Ommitting to state things as they are as well as to cover the level of encouragement is biased and misrepresentative.

On the point of demanding, again if the deal is to support an organisation and one knows that up front, that's fine. It's probably preferable.

It's probably best not to get into the financial aspects of SGI, cemetery plots, money in safes a refusal to silence critics by voluntarily opening the accounts to independent auditors places SGI in a very weak position, that in my view lacks a considerable amount of wisdom and should have been addressed years ago.

The organization has only itself to blame if it continues to court controversy by not acting wisely. That has nothing to do with being persecuted by the three powerful enemies and everything to do with the poison of stupidity (and possibility greed) working within its decision makers. Let's hope for an outbreak of common sense shall we?

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 7, 2015, 1:17:47 PM12/7/15

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What no come back on this Chas? Being selective again?

Chas.

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Dec 8, 2015, 8:23:45 AM12/8/15

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On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 10:17:47 AM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> What no come back on this Chas? Being selective again?

These are the same attacks on the SGI I have heard from all the independents. It's just flak. If one is presumed innocent until judged guilty in a court of Law, then alleged charges of illegality that never result in a criminal court are self-defined as unfounded allegations.

If you imagined a full-blown investigation of the SGI by the IRA or Justice, you would find in the end that after much noise and hubbub, that there would be only minor errors found: the kind that flawed humans always make. We would pay the fines and move on. So should you.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 9, 2015, 2:33:39 PM12/9/15

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Nope sorry that will just not do Chas, firstly it is interesting that you characterise it as an attack. As a contributor to the Kosen Rufu fund and a member of the SGI, I am making a valid observation.

It is extremely risky to take a laid back approach where money is concerned and if you were at all acquaintaned with the SGI guidance on financial transactions between members you would understand that.

I am simply and quite legitimately pointing out that the SGI globally should voluntarily open its books to independent scrutiny. This would answer critics, it would guard against the possibility of future corruption, it would demonstrate finacial probity and leadership and it is the right thing to do for its members. So really, I cannot see your objection of why you characterise it as an attack.

Simply, what is the problem? That this has not been done shows a lack of wisdom or phenomenonal indifference or arrogance. I'm really not interested in the past, those in charge of decision making in this area need to get up to speed and especially in a climate of criticism, take the lead by proving their critics wrong.

If they are unwilling or unable to do that then in my view their critics have the advantage, why on earth would they not do that? It's a very reasonable question.

As you have pointed out some members are very poor, their sincere contributions should be treated with the utmost respect as should they and everyone else for that matter. For hecks sake, I don't know why you are even bothering to argue the toss in this one, just do it SGI! Walk the walk, is that really too much to ask?

Please don't ask me to defend SGI when it isn't taking the lead, I will side with it's critics every time if SGI is not financially transparent and squeaky clean. So should every other contributor to the Kosen Rufu fund if they care for their organization.

What do you not understand about taking responsibility? That includes financial responsibility, which includes independently audited accounts and inviting oversight not resisting it.

So if that's flak, so be it. If one deliberately flies one's plane low over enemy territory in plain sight and within range then one deserves the flak and one cannot complain if one gets shot down.

I suggest there is a heavy dose of the poison of stupidity at work here, which directly calls into question the suitability of those who are responsible for financial decisions.

If you want to see how Nichiren handles it, I suggest you go to the Gosho and remind yourself of the very, very many places where Nichiren sets out what believers contributed to support him and says thank you. Is this not the example that followers of Nichiren should follow?

It's simple, money attracts problems, Mr Ikeda deals with this repeatedly, the SGI is not immune from people using the organisation for (in his words) 'fame and profit'. One should use wisdom to guard against that. So don't you go characterising my observations as attacks and trying to dismiss them when you clearly care so little about the SGI to insist it handles its financial affairs in a way that silences it's critics and prevents corruption (or because you are so timid a beliver to speak up). I'll have none of it.

Mark Rogow

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Dec 10, 2015, 2:13:12 AM12/10/15

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Why is SGI not a model Sangha of the Buddha founded sect? Why is it that stupidity and "possibly greed" has become rampant in the SGI? I maintain, because it is not the Lotus Sutra that they are propagating but rather Ikedaism. That, and a Gohonzon in which the spirits are rampant:

Nichikan wrote:

"We recite the Hoben Pon (2nd chapter) to smash the provisional sutras, we recite the Juryo Hon (16th Chapter) to smash the Hoben Pon, and we recits the daimoku to smash the Lotus Sutra".

Nichiren wrote:

"Nowhere in all the five thousand or seven thousand volumes of sutras listed in the K'ai-yüan era catalog do we find a single scriptural passage that expresses disapproval of the Lotus Sutra and advises one to discard it or to cast it aside, nor any passage that says it is to be classified among the sundry practices and abandoned. If you disagree, you had better find some reliable passage from the sutras that will support your view, so that you may rescue Shan-tao and Honen from their torments in the hell of incessant suffering."(Coversations Between a Sage and Unenlightened Man).

Yet you do Gongyo and chant the Daimoku every day to this slanderer's Gohonzon. Why would you ever think for a moment that you too could escape the torments of hell?

In the "Toke Sanne Sho [On the Three Robes of Nichiren Shoshu]," Nichikan Shonin cites Nikko Shonin and Nichimoku Shonin as the Treasure of the Priest when revealing the Three Treasures of Nichiren Shoshu, and then states, "I say that all the Masters, the successive direct successors to the bestowal of the Law, are in this way included in the Three Treasures." (Seiten, p. 971)

Nichikan's Six Volume Writings" (Rokkan sho) is composed of the following:

1)."The Threefold Secret Teaching" (Sanju hiden sho): In this writing Nichikan exhorts us us to abandon the Lotus Sutra and only embrace Namu Myoho renge kyo. This is bizarre since Namu myoho renge kyo means devotion to the Lotus Sutra (Myoho renge kyo).

2)."The Meanings Hidden in the Depths" (Montei hichin sho). In this equally bizarre writing he changes the Great Secret Law of the Object of Worship in terms of the person from the Original Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni to Nichiren Daishonin.

3)."Interpretations Based on the Law" (Egi hanmon sho). In this equally strange writing, Nichikan teaches that the Lotus Sutra was preached by Shakyamuni to explain Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism rather than Nichiren Daishonin explaining the Lotus Sutra through his commentaries.

4)."Teachings for the Latter Day" (Mappo soo sho). In this writing, Nichikan attempts to overturn the use of statues as Objects of Worship despite the fact that Nichiren utilized and revered a Statue of Shakyamuni Buddha as an Object of Worship throughout his life, praised both Dozenbo, Toki Jonin, and Shijo Kingo for fashioning statues of Shakyamuni Buddha, and wrote about both "wooden and painted" images.

5)."The Practice of this School" (Toryu gyoji sho). In this slanderous writing, Nichikan says we chant the Daimoku to smash the Juryo Chapter and chant the Juryo Chapter to smash the Hobenpon.

(6) The "Toke Sanne Sho" (The Three Robes of this School) explains the origin and significance of the traditional gray robe, the white surplice and the prayer beads of the Nichiren Shoshu priests. Here, he also goes on to overturn the Three Treasures of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren by asserting that Nichiren is the Treasure of the Buddha and that the heritage of the Law, the succession, is through the bequethal to one sole individual or the successive High Priests of Nichiren Shoshu (the Treasure of the Sangha). On the Juzu, he wrote:

"The Juzu is a means to guide persons of inferior capacity and force them into ascetic practices."

"Juzu require an eye-opening ceremony before use. This can be done at your local temple." (Six Volume Writings," Rokkan-sho, p. 225)

The Ryokkan Sho, far from being an Enlightened writing, is a bizarre writing.

Nichiren Daishonin, on the other hand, writes:

"When the Great Teacher T'ien-t'ai applied the simile of ghee to the Lotus Sutra, basing himself on a passage in the Nirvana Sutra, he declared that among all the sutras the Lotus Sutra is worthy to be compared to ghee. The True Word teaching was introduced to China from India two hundred years or more after the time of T'ien-t'ai. How then could T'ien-t'ai possibly have stolen the ghee of the True Word teaching and called it the ghee of the Lotus Sutra? Of all strange events, this would be the strangest!

What evidence is there then for calling persons who lived two hundred years or more before the True Word teaching was even introduced to China thieves? Are we to put faith in these writings of the Great Teacher Kobo? Or are we to put faith in the Nirvana Sutra where the Buddha likens the Lotus Sutra to ghee?

If we are to regard the Great Teacher T'ien-t'ai as a thief, then how are we to interpret this passage in the Nirvana Sutra? And if we accept the passage in the Nirvana Sutra as reliable and conclude that the writings of Kobo (Nichikan) are incorrect, then what are we to think of people who put faith in such erroneous teachings? All I can say is that one should compare the writings of the Great Teacher Kobo (Nichikan) and the pronouncements of the Buddha, and then put one's faith in the one that proves to be correct." (On Prayer).

"But those who follow the teachings of Nichiren honestly discard the mistaken doctrines of the provisional teachings and the incorrect theories of the mistaken teachers, and, with all sincerity, put their faith in the correct teaching and the correct doctrines of the correct teacher. Accordingly they are able to gain the lotus of the entity and to manifest the mystic principle of the entity of the Land of Eternally Tranquil Light. This is because they put their faith in the golden words of the Buddha indicated in the "Life Span" chapter of the essential teaching and chant Namu-myoho-renge-kyo."(Entity of the Mystic Law)

Since the SGI fails, on this one vital criteria of putting "their faith in the golden words of the Buddha indicated in the "Life Span" chapter of the essential teaching", their land is the land of devils and hardships and not the Land of Eternally Quiescent Light. Wherever the teachings of the SGI spread, the people suffer and more tragedies and calamities occur. On the other hand, even one true practicer of the Lotus Sutra in a city or a country will bring good fortune and peace to the people.

Nichikan also wrote:

"The three groups of shomon disciples
accumulated good fortune since sanzen
jintengo [before being guaranteed
enlightenment), and those who received
the seed and reached enlightenment on
hearing the first chapter of the Lotus
Sutra accumulated good fortune since
Gohyaku jintengo. How possibly could
those who first received the seed during
the lifetime of the Buddha all without
exception achieve enlightenment in a
mere two-thousand years? [They
couldn't!] The reason is this: the
effectiveness of Shakyamuni's teachings
begins at Kuon Ganjo, but ends with the
two-thousand years of the Former and
Middle Days of the Law. ... Therefore
the people of the Latter Day of the Law
all innately have yet to possess the seed
and so are of the capacity to receive the
original seed of enlightenment directly."
(Rokkan-sho, p.110)

Who can understand such nonsense? He is like SGI leaders. Nichikan just makes things up out of thin air. What ever pops into his head he writes and calls it the True Teachings. Nichiren says about such men who fail to preach with Sutra in hand, even though they be great bodhisattvas, don't listen to them. Nichikan wasn't even a Bodhisattva. He was a madman and he inscribed the Gohonzon to which SGI members fuse. How could every last member of the SGI fail to become a madman? Here is more proof.

Nichikan writes in his Montei Hichin-Sho ["The Teachings Hidden in the Depths of the Text"]:

"Therefore know this: *"One of Perfect Freedom"* is His true state (honchi). Bodhisattva Jogyo is His transient reflection. And Nichiren is the manifestation of His true state (kenpon).

Nichiren Daishonin never revealed it and he never held back anything. Nichiren Shonin teaches that his true identity is that of Jogyo and hidden in the depths of the Juryohon is that he, as well as we, are Three Bodied Tathagatas, one with the Original Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni, our original teacher.

The Juryo (16) and Jinriki Chapters (21) of the Lotus Sutra and the Goshos, the Entity of the Mystic Law (Totaigi Sho), The Opening of the Eyes, The True Object of Worship, and Repaying Debts of Gratitude, explain why the Nichikan Gohonzon is a demon infested condition for the ruin of the individual, the nation, and the world.

'I likewise am the Father of the World,
The One who saves
from the various sufferings and travails" (Lotus Sutra Chapter 16)

"At that time the Buddha spoke to Superior Practices and the others in the great assembly of bodhisattvas, saying: "The supernatural powers of the Buddhas, as you have seen, are immeasurable, boundless, inconceivable. If in the process of entrusting this sutra to others I were to employ these supernatural powers for a immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of asamkhya kalpas to describe the benefits of the sutra, I could never finish doing so. To put it briefly, all the doctrines possessed by the Thus Come One, the storehouse of all the secret essentials of the Thus Come One - all these are proclaimed, revealed, and clearly expounded in this sutra. (Lotus Sutra Chapter 21)

Nichiren comments on this passage:

"Answer: In this passage, Shakyamuni Buddha explains that he is entrusting to the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, his original disciples, the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, which is the essence of the Lotus Sutra. Shakyamuni, who attained enlightenment countless kalpas in the past, says elsewhere, "By now the original vows that I made have already been fulfilled. I have converted all living beings and caused them all to enter the Buddha way." Thus, he has already fulfilled his earlier vow. Then, intending to charge his disciples with the task of accomplishing widespread propagation in the fifth five hundred years after his death," he called forth the Bodhisattvas of the Earth and entrusted them with the heart of the sutra, the lotus of the entity of the essential teaching. This passage represents the ultimate purpose for which Shakyamuni Buddha appeared in the world, the secret Law that he attained in the place of meditation. It is this passage that gives proof of the lotus of the entity that, for those of us who live in the Latter Day of the Law, assures the attainment of Buddhahood in both the present and future."

Accordingly, at the present time in the Latter Day of the Law, other than the envoy of the Thus Come One, there can be no one who understands and produces this passage as proof of the lotus of the entity. Truly it is a passage of secret meaning. Truly it is a matter of great concern. Truly it is to be honored and admired. Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, Namu-myoho-renge-kyo!" (Entity of the Mystic Law)

"Answer: 'One: Japan and so on to the whole of Jambudvipa should uniformly take the Master of teachings Lord Shakya of the Original Doctrine as the Object of Worship." (Repaying Debts of Gratitude)

"Now, when the Eternal Buddha was revealed in the essential section of the Lotus Sutra, this world of endurance (Saha-world) became the Eternal Pure Land, indestructible even by the three calamities of conflagration, flooding, and strong winds, which are said to destroy the world. It transcends the four periods of cosmic change: the kalpa of construction, continuance, destruction and emptiness. Sakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will He be born in the future. He exists forever throughout the past present and future. All those who receive His guidance are one with this Eternal Buddha." (Opening of the Eyes)

"In the same chapter, another passage reads: 'The duration of My Life, which I obtained through the practice of the way of bodhisattvas, has not yet expired. It is twice as long as the length of time stated above: 500 dust-particle kalpa.' This reveals the bodhisattva realm within our minds. The bodhisattvas described in the fifteenth chapter, 'Appearance of Bodhisattvas from Underground,' who have sprung out of the great earth, as numerous as the number of dust-particles of 1,000 worlds, are followers of the Original Buddha Sakyamuni who resides within our minds." (The True Object of Worship)

Nichikan asked us to abandon Shakyamuni Buddha and the Lotus Sutra. This is the purport of his Object of Worship. The Nichikan Gohonzon is neither based on the Lotus Sutra (Myoho renge kyo) nor on Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra. It is not based on the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin. Chanting to this Gohonzon is as if you were to take and revere the offering of a sumptuous meal from the murderer of your parents or praising the one who has kidnapped your child. You along with the offender (Nichikan) will both fall into the Lower Realms and the Sutra's promise of peace and security in this life and a fortunate birth in the next will allude you.

Further Proof of my assertion is the fact that SGI would take up this Gohonzon as their banner of propagation in the first place; the bizarre worldview of the SGI where Daisaku Ikeda is revered and praised at the expense of the Sutra, the Buddha, and Nichiren Daishonin; the misfortune that invariably befalls its leaders; and the lack of insight of the general members.

If you send me your Nichikan gohonzon, we will see to it that it is burned respectfully as an offering to Devedatta, the Ten Demon Daughters, the Lotus Sutra, and Shakyamuni Buddha or you may burn it yourself while reciting the Daimoku and the Jiga-ge for the repose of Nichikan, the greatest destroyer of Buddhism in human history.

buku

Chas.

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Dec 10, 2015, 10:31:34 AM12/10/15

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On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 11:33:39 AM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Nope sorry that will just not do Chas, firstly it is interesting that you characterise it as an attack. As a contributor to the Kosen Rufu fund and a member of the SGI, I am making a valid observation.
>
> It is extremely risky to take a laid back approach where money is concerned and if you were at all acquaintaned with the SGI guidance on financial transactions between members you would understand that.
>

You mean ORG-031? Quite well acquainted. It says nothing about publicly echoing the myriad of charges brought by enemies of the SGI.

From "The Fourteen Slanders", WND I, p. 756.

. The fourth volume of the Lotus Sutra states, "If there
. were a person who spoke only one word to curse the lay
. persons or monks or nuns who uphold and preach the Lotus
. Sutra, then his offense would be even graver than that of
. cursing Shakyamuni Buddha to his face for the space of a
. kalpa." The Lotus Sutra also states, "[If anyone sees a
. person who accepts and upholds this sutra and tries to
. expose the faults or evils of that person], whether what
. he speaks is true or not, [he will in his present
. existence be afflicted with white leprosy]." Take these
. teachings to heart, and always remember that believers in
. the Lotus Sutra should absolutely be the last to abuse one
. another. All those who keep faith in the Lotus Sutra are
. most certainly Buddhas, and one who slanders a Buddha
. commits a grave offense.

It is unwise to join in with enemies of Nichiren Daishonin's Sangha, or even appear to. I myself, am SGI all the way.

-Chas.

Chas.

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Dec 10, 2015, 10:33:45 AM12/10/15

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It is one thing to espouse higher principles (which I do), it is quite another to level charges.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 10, 2015, 2:51:11 PM12/10/15

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Dec 13, 2015, 11:43:56 AM12/13/15

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Very good question.
But to go back this is not Nichiren quoting the Sutra, this is Nichiren
himself.....And there is a lot of to be said precisely when he mentions
"Time and Space" :
more precisely when he says : """without the priests who studied it and

passed it on, it would never have been transmitted throughout the two
thousand years of the Former and Middle Days into the Latter Day of the

Law.""" why do he has to be so precise?????
So we are here at the entry of the Latter Days of the law"........
I'll try to come back on this later with additional informations
@lex

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 13, 2015, 12:14:17 PM12/13/15

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Thanks Chas, if you are going to quote me please do so fully. I bet you were one of those students who tackle an exam question with gusto, writing reams only to be told you did actually read the question properly and so answer it correctly. The key to answering this one also lies in reading it! So here is what I actually wrote:

"Please point out one place in the Lotus Sutra where there is any reference to an organisation being needed to either attain enlightenment or to achieve widespread propagation?

I contest that this is ultimately done at an individual level, the bodhisattva's emerge from the earth (or underground). They already have their mission, the will already have the karmic links with the Law to both find, embrace and understand what they need to do to propagate the Law so it's flow never ceases. All organisations are an expedient and when corrupted and impediment."

So your citation of the very chapter and the phenomenon I was referring to is very helpful for providing the reader with this reference. There's just an incy wincy problem, your quote doesn't include any propagation activity. For this of course, you'll need to actually reference those portions of the Sutra. If you want to reference Kosen rufu, the please turn to the correct chapter. By all means help me out some more. I make the references you provide the quotes, what a team. Your becoming quite the helpful errand boy ;).

Chas.

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Dec 14, 2015, 9:39:40 AM12/14/15

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Ahh, no.

The point of mentioning the Lotus Sutra quote is that they showed up IN THEIR ORGANIZED FORM, to receive the Law and make the great vow to propagate it widely and protect it. Making the vow is crucial. Making it together is noteworthy. Now, there were some isolated Bodhisattvas of the Earth who were not part of any cadre, "Or those who came alone", are you suggesting that is the situation of some people who have no mentor?

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 14, 2015, 11:59:05 AM12/14/15

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Chas, my point was specific "organisation needed to propogate". My push back was correct to stop you presenting an irrelevant quote as though it answered my point.

Being organised when showing up and being together to take the vow are all interesting but they say nothing about propagation.

I direct you attention back to the exam question and to the need to reference those portions of the Sutra if you want to answer it. If not, that's fine too.

If you want to make the point below, fine, just don't present it as being an answer to my challenge.

In answer to your question. The Sutra itself is ultimately the only true 'mentor' or 'teacher', the Law. I suggest you look carefully at the phrase "wisdom (or knowledge) that comes of itself", which occurs frequently throughout the Sutra and its opening and closing sutras. If you perform a search on the Nichiren library, you should be able to find it easily enough. You may also want to put that together with the statements in Nichiren's Questions & Answers on the Honzon (object of worship/devotion).

If you are suggesting that the 'cadres' representated in the passage you quoted somehow mystically translates into this day and age in the shape of the SGI, I think that's a poor suggestion. No doubt in that mythology, Nichiren would be Superior Practices and the three presidents the other leaders of the bodhisattva's of the earth. I have no doubt that this could be what the forces that are reshaping the SGI away from the Law and Gohonzon are driving towards. Those who interpret the meaning have control over that meaning. Beats me Why anyone would need to write Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra when one can simply read it and chant Daimoku...

Alex Beauroy

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Dec 15, 2015, 5:13:44 AM12/15/15

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Here I am creating a change of title from, the initial "Jofukyo bosassu bon"

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 15, 2015, 12:44:05 PM12/15/15

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Thanks Alex, yes I can see your point. I think I will need to do some more research on the Gosho you'be quoted and compare the two translations. One thing I'm clear on though is that Nichiren had a priority, which he followed strictly, Sutra first, later commentators second and he firmly classed himself as a later commentator and thus held himself to the standards that applied to later commentary, namely that it should be consistent with the spirit and the words of the Sutra. If it was good enough for Nichiren, it is good enough for me, that's why a see his writings in this context. :)

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 15, 2015, 4:12:07 PM12/15/15

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Thanks Alex,

I've had a chance to dig a little deeper with this Gosho. A few observations on when it was written and translations.

Firstly it was written during the Izu exile, so before the Tatsuakuchi persecution and the Sado exile.

Secondly, I have not been able to locate this Gosho in the University of Hawaii Press volumes, I'm missing volume 4 of these, so it may be in that volume but at the moment, I can't verify an extant copy in Nichiren's own hand.

Thirdly the translation differs between the "Major Writings of Nichiren Daishonin" series, that was used by SGI when it was a lay society of Nichiren Shoshu and the current SGI "Writings of Nichiren Daishonin", both translated by Burton Watson. I will give both translations here.

Four Debts of Gratitude

Major Writings of Nichiren Daishonin vol 5 page 11.

"As for the debt owed to the Priesthood both the treasure of the Buddha and the treasure of the Law are invariably perpetuated by priests. To illustrate, without firewood there can be no fire, and if there is no earth, trees and plants cannot grow. Likewise, even though Buddhism existed, without priests who studied it and passed it on, it would never have been transmitted throughout the Former and Middle Days into the Latter Day of the Law."

Four Debts of Gratitude

"As for the debt owed to the Buddhist Order, both the treasure of the Buddha and the treasure of the Law are invariably perpetuated by the Order. To illustrate, without firewood, there can be no fire, and if there is no earth, trees and plants cannot grow. Likewise, even though Buddhism existed, without the members of the Order who studied it and passed it on, it would never have been transmitted throughout the two thousand years of the Former and Middle Days into the Latter Day of the Law."

So, clearly the newer version has substituted the term 'Buddhist Order' for 'Priesthood'. This is an interesting choice, since for both translations to be correct there must be an equivalence of meaning between the two.

No doubt the substitution was made after the excommunication to distance SGI from the priesthood and to presumably legitimise SGI as the treasure of the Buddhist Order. But if there is an equivalence of meaning, this essentially means that SGI has set up a new priesthood, an observation that others have made but the SGI seem uncomfortable with. This point I made in my previous posts, that SGI leaders were essentially acting as a priestly class, this substitution would seem to support my view.

But let's go on to the next passage following where your quote stops. This would seem to support my view of what actually counts as a valid 'priestc (or teacher of the Law, in my parlance).

I hope you will agree that I am not far from Nichiren's view, certainly he doesn't seem to be saying that such a priest belongs to an organisation as such.

Earlier in the Gosho Nichiren has identified himself as "without precepts"

Major Writings (ibid)

"Therefore the Daijuku sutra states "Suppose that, in the fifth five hundred period, there should be someone who harnesses unlearned monks without precepts by accusing them of some offense. You should know that this person is extinguishing the great torch of Buddhism". Difficult to recompense indeed is the debt we owe to the Priesthood."

Writings of Nichiren Daishonin (ibid)

"Accordingly, the Great Collection Sutra states: "Suppose that, in the last of the five five-hundred-year periods, there should be someone who harasses unlearned monks without precepts by accusing them of some offense. You should know that this person is extinguishing the great torch of Buddhism." Therefore, the debt we owe to the Order is difficult to recompense."

This chimes with the sentiment expressed in Repaying Debts of Gratitude. We must remember that Nichiren was outside his order, his legitimacy was that he was a votary of the Sutra, he was a valid teacher of the Law. It is notable that Nichiren did not reserve that term for himself. He accords that title equally to his followers of strong faith.

So, I contest that the test is whether one is a valid teacher of the Law, everyone of carrying out the function of a vortary of the Sutra, this is the treasure of the 'Priesthood', and yes it is difficult to recompense, because the Sutra's votaries are literally everywhere and will be at everytime for the duration of the Latter Day. Some are in organisations some outside. The Sutra's seeds scatter far and wide. :)

By contrast, likewise their opponents, greedy, arrogant 'monks' who claim they have attained what they have not attained are also everywhere. Ready to confuse, lead astray. One should not be deceived, learn to know right from wrong regardless of organisation, position or status. I believe this is the only way!

What say you? :D

Alex Beauroy

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Dec 16, 2015, 5:22:18 AM12/16/15

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On 15/12/2015 18:44, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks Alex, yes I can see your point. I think I will need to do some more research on the Gosho you'be quoted and compare the two translations. One thing I'm clear on though is that Nichiren had a priority, which he followed strictly, Sutra first, later commentators second and he firmly classed himself as a later commentator and thus held himself to the standards that applied to later commentary, namely that it should be consistent with the spirit and the words of the Sutra. If it was good enough for Nichiren, it is good enough for me, that's why a see his writings in this context. :)
>

I think the main thing here is to study the three treasures :
So let us know about the three treasures during the living Shakiamuni,
then after the living of Shakiamuni, and then,
the three treasures all in one "body"

But also in dual task with the former, middle and later days of the Law

Then what is the "Sangha" teses days guys?????
I'm sure that it is not the SGI.....
thanks for reading and pass it on up to the later days of the Law

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 16, 2015, 11:19:20 AM12/16/15

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Thanks Alex, I think the sangha is the body of the believers who uphold the Sutra, embrace the Law, chant with correct faith as Nichiren taught. I think it includes bits of the SGI, bits of other organisations too and independent practitioners also. I agree Alex, SGI is not the sangha in and of itself. It is just what it is, a particular organisation.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 16, 2015, 1:54:50 PM12/16/15

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Thanks Alex,

"I think the main thing here is to study the three treasures :
So let us know about the three treasures during the living Shakiamuni,
then after the living of Shakiamuni, and then,
the three treasures all in one "body"

But also in dual task with the former, middle and later days of the Law"

I'm not sure this Gosho is actually mainly focused on the three treasures as such. I the way I read it is that it is establishing a place for Nichiren and his followers outside the established schools of his time and the legitimacy of his teachings. In the first portion of the writing, Nichiren is clearly identifing himself as 'without precepts'. This could be seen as an odd statement from a person who'd been tonsured and therefore accepted the precepts.

So why does he makes this statement? I think that he is making a clean break with the Tendai tradition into which he was ordained. The rest of the Gosho seems to be focused on reminding readers of the importance of repaying the four debts of gratitude and the contextualises the three treasures and the treasure of the 'priesthood' not in terms of how it might usually be understood by established schools and lineages but in terms of legitimacy based solely on embracing and propagating the Sutra.

We must remember that Nichiren's movement was new, it was probably equivalent to the situation that many independent Nichiren followers of today find themselves, trying to maintain and take forward a pure faith in the Sutra and a will to share that with others against a backdrop of established Nichiren sects and big, wealthy and powerful organisations like the SGI.

I really admire such people. It seems to me that they face much greater difficulties in sustaining faith, motivating practice and study and helping others meet the Law. Too often established organisations can act to block such individuals and accuse them of some offense, when really what they should be doing is recognising and applauding their efforts.

By no means do I mean to criticize believers and 'priests' enmass in such organisations, I think there is a mixture, with many ready to embrace their fellow independent bodhisattvas and value their contributions, whilst others are all to ready to argue what is essentially and organisational line and be disparaging and dismissive of any practitioners who don't sit within their particular camp.

Thanks for choosing this Gosho, because I think it drives to the heart of the situation within Nichiren Buddhism right now. It reminds us that what really matters is not what organisation your aligned to but what basis you practice upon. :)

Chas.

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Dec 17, 2015, 10:30:48 AM12/17/15

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On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 8:59:05 AM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Chas, my point was specific "organisation needed to propogate". My push back > If you are suggesting that the 'cadres' representated in the passage you quoted somehow mystically translates into this day and age in the shape of the SGI, I think that's a poor suggestion. No doubt in that mythology, Nichiren would be Superior Practices and the three presidents the other leaders of the bodhisattva's of the earth. I have no doubt that this could be what the forces that are reshaping the SGI away from the Law and Gohonzon are driving towards. Those who interpret the meaning have control over that meaning. Beats me Why anyone would need to write Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra when one can simply read it and chant Daimoku...
>

Your rhetorical technique of declaring some things to be others, or relabeling, is specious. The SGI history and struggle is not a "mythology", it is a fact.

Since you haven't bothered to read "The Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra", how can you present a critique? You probably haven't read "The Living Buddha", "Buddhism, The First Millennium", or "The Flower of Chinese Buddhism", yet either. Those are world-renowned and widely-taught histories, as well. I would suggest reading them, you might learn something you don't already know.

Recent studies of how the human brain actually works presents some interesting insight. The technicolor and stereo picture you have of the world around us is not the way it really is. Vision signals come into the thalamus from the optic nerves and flow to the visual cortex in the back for processing and then to the cortex on top to create your world model a half-second delayed, incorporating the other sense paths.

What's interesting about this is that there is six times as much signal flowing back into the thalamus and modifying your vision signal as the original signal from the optic nerves. So what you see as "objective reality" is six times as much subjective as objective. Hence the people rambling around talking to themselves and seeing things are actually talking to people and seeing those things. Or the people who see their mother in a photo, feeding back six times as much information into the recognized image, surrounding her face with a golden aura and love and warmth...

Hence, what people perceive when the chant to the Gohonzon, or when they see Sensei, or go to an SGI meeting and chant together and talk with other members ... this is mostly context from the inside and not from the outside.

So, when David Cole was standing guard outside the chamber where President Ikeda was having personal meetings with one after another young women's division leader for many hours in Southern California all those years ago ... he perceived Sensei having sex with all those girls one after another in an act of superhuman sexual prowess unmatched by any human male in history. It was the only way he could explain what was progressing, and I'm sure he received visual, aural and other sense queues to reinforce that world model in his cortex. This was because he did not have the mentor and disciple relationship to protect him from the demons that arise at the beckoning of the devil king in all people who chant and attempt to attain enlightenment to challenge the dominion of the devil king over the six worlds.

You may have had similar "experiences" of SGI life.

My experiences are quite different.

My first experience with Sensei close up was in 1973? or 1974?, when I was a bus toban at the San Diego convention. There I was on the street holding back the crowd behind me to protect them from running out into the motorcade passing by 20 feet away. As Sensei smiled and waved at each of us: a joined wave of joyous sound passed up the street and finally got to me as we looked at each other.

I had no idea of what to expect and no preconceived expectations of any kind. I had precious little religious belief or faith in Buddhism. I was chanting, because I had a desire to make something of my life, and absolutely no faith in anything else whatsoever, so Buddhism was my only hope. I was, however, quite sincere and diligent in protecting my bus load of members, every step of the way from the very beginning of the trip until the last member stepped off the bus at the end and went on their way. Their well-being was my entrustment and in that moment I was fulfilling my vow, with no idea of what the effect would be of that cause. I was chanting like crazy on that trip, because every time the bus made a rest stop was another chaotic opportunity for deviltry to destroy the trip for someone or everyone. I would watch everyone like a hawk, and make precision head counts every time we got back on the bus.

As our gazes came close, my life condition soared, I know this now, because I have chanted many tens of millions of daimoku and that is how it feels to chant a lot.

As our gazes met, I perceived an image of black Chinese characters on a purest white background, I think the character myo (to open, to revive, to be fully endowed). I had never heard of such a thing from anyone and it was a surprise to me. As the motorcade went up the street and looked back at the people I was protecting and they were all similarly blown away.

It took me a while to process that experience and come up with a conclusion that in the mirror of the Gohonzon, we were simply two bus tobans doing our job, although his bus was significantly larger.

However, before and after coming to an understanding of that, a deep bond was formed in that moment, and every time there is an opportunity for devils to arise in the relationship of myself and Sensei, or the SGI or any leader or member of the SGI, that mentor and disciple relationship, like a grandmother cell in the visual cortex, recognizes him and them as true self. And anything that attacks them as something I have to deal with, sometimes with great care, other times very strictly.

And that sums up the world view residing in my cortex, permanently colored by that mentor and disciple relationship, never to be swayed by anything.

Now, this experience didn't make me a great bodhisattva or anything, I was still a lousy Buddhist, pursuing my career flying around the world, repeatedly out of touch from the organization periodically, missing gongyo a lot (so glad it's shorter), sometimes only chanting when I was miserable, which of course guaranteed a lot of that. But like the jewel sewn into the robe, the one and only thing in the world I had faith in was that relationship with Sensei, and that finally brought me back into focus in the SGI, where I found out we had been excommunicated. Being permanently on Sensei's side in any dispute, I traded in my Nittatsu Gohonzon for a larger Nichikan Gohonzon and here is my unworthy self, completely shed of any attachment to the NST priesthood.

As Nichiren states in "Encouragement to a Sick Person", pp. 77-78,

. Moreover, every single person is guilty of slander of the
. Law, an offense exceeding even the ten evil acts or the
. five cardinal sins. Although few people slander the Lotus
. Sutra with actual words of abuse, there are none who accept
. it. Some appear to accept the sutra, but their faith in it
. is not as deep as their faith in the Nembutsu or other
. teachings. And even those with profound faith do not
. reproach the enemies of the Lotus Sutra. However great the
. good causes one may make, or even if one reads and copies
. the entirety of the Lotus Sutra a thousand or ten thousand
. times, OR ATTAINS THE WAY OF PERCEIVING THREE THOUSAND
. REALMS IN A SINGLE MOMENT OF LIFE, if one fails to denounce
. the enemies of the Lotus Sutra, it will be impossible to
. attain the way.

Note the characters in bold, even if you perceive ichinen sanzen in the Gohonzon and fail to denounce the enemies of the Lotus Sutra, it is impossible to attain the way.

Iain, I note that you started chanting in 1988 (27 years ago, according to you), did you receive a Nikken Gohonzon? Have you done the Gohonzon exchange?

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 17, 2015, 4:31:13 PM12/17/15

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Thanks Chas,

I don't see any point discussing anything further with you. You have clearly formed a particular belief system founded on Mr Ikeda and SGI as absolute and unchangeable entities that seem not to be subject to delusion or capable of corruption. I have expressed my views and they are very clearly different from yours and incompatible. Our worldviews and view of the practice are mutually exclusive. Although I disagree with your views and your beliefs, you have a right to them. You are the boss of your life Chas and you alone are responsible for it. Likewise for me.

I would however like to correct you on your baseless assumption:

"Since you haven't bothered to read "The Wisdom of the Lotus Sutra", how can you present a critique?"

I suggest you read my posts to understand how wrong you are. Especially the one that clearly states when I got my copies of that series. I find it surprising that you would make this error towards someone who clearly has an extensive library and who has clearly read and can reference the books within that library.

"You probably haven't read "The Living Buddha", "Buddhism, The First Millennium", or "The Flower of Chinese Buddhism", yet either."

These were among the first books of Mr Ikeda's that I got along with the Buddhism in action series. And, like many of Mr Ikeda's writings of that era, I got a lot from them. I can't remember precise dates of acquisition but I remember I got them from Richmond Green, when that was our National Centre, so 1988 - 1990? not much later.

"Those are world-renowned and widely-taught histories, as well. I would suggest reading them, you might learn something you don't already know."

Not quite Chas, I enjoyed them but by Mr Ikeda's own admission, they are to someone extent reimaginings. Buddhist history told in a digestible format and from a very particular standpoint. There is always more we can know Chas, I haven't stopped learning, nor will I.

On the Gohonzon exchange, what an odd question! Why even would it matter if I had or had not exchanged the Mandala? Gohonzon is Gohonzon, is Gohonzon. But since you are curious about the Mandala I chant to, Omamori was bestowed in about 1998 and Tokabetsu was bestowed in 2005, you work it out. Just let's be very clear, Gohonzon is found in the two characters for faith. That's the really important thing, not the Mandala in and of itself.

To end, I have noticed you like to try and keep the exchange going. In future of I need to respond, I will simply reference this post. As I said at the start of this post, I am not interested in further discussion with you for the reasons given. Good wishes to you and farewell. :)

Chas.

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Dec 18, 2015, 9:41:21 AM12/18/15

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On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 1:31:13 PM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks Chas,
>

> I don't see any point discussing anything further with you....

> To end, I have noticed you like to try and keep the exchange going. In future of I need to respond, I will simply reference this post. As I said at the start of this post, I am not interested in further discussion with you for the reasons given. Good wishes to you and farewell. :)

Farewell, again, Iain.

-Chas.

Alex Beauroy

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Dec 19, 2015, 4:44:32 AM12/19/15

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The Gohonzon exchange????
?????
?????
Tell us about this new precept, Cha(rle)s ?????
@lex

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 19, 2015, 8:30:30 AM12/19/15

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An observation on the following statement from earlier in the thread is that if one understands and applies the nine consciousnessess model, this is self evident. In fact what is notable is the extent to which the findings of modern neuroscience support that model.

"... So what you see as "objective reality" is six times as much subjective as objective. Hence the people rambling around talking to themselves and seeing things are actually talking to people and seeing those things. Or the people who see their mother in a photo, feeding back six times as much information into the recognized image, surrounding her face with a golden aura and love and warmth...

> Hence, what people perceive when the chant to the Gohonzon, or when they see Sensei, or go to an SGI meeting and chant together and talk with other members ... this is mostly context from the inside and not from the outside."

So briefly, on the nine consciousnessess. The 'sensory' consciousnesses are aligned to the senses of sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell but they are not those senses in and of themselves.

Their job is to filter and make sense of the input from the external world that comes via each of those inputs.

The sixth consciousness puts it all together into a coherent whole. However that is not a one way street. The 6th interplays with the sensory consciousnessess.

The seventh, allows deeper judgement, Dick Causton locates the ego in the seventh consciousness.

The eight is the 'storehouse' at a superficial level this is memory itself, a deeper reading would, in psychological terms be the subconscious, unconscious and even collective unconscious. A still deeper reading in Buddhist terms is that it is the seat of our karma and quite possibly the single greatest factor in shaping who we are.

Likewise, as for the 6th, there is an interplay between the collective of 6,7 & 8 and the sensory consciousnesses. Our internal subjective reality is the product of their collective operation.

One can look at this in a different way, thought (perception), influences feeling (emotion), emotion, influences behaviour, behaviour influences the way our external world responds, which in turn influences out thoughs (perception).

Our subjective perception (subjective reality) is essentially a model of the world (objective reality) that's all, it is not the fact itself.

How accurate our subjective reality is is determined by the limits on the amount of information we can hold and process plus the choices we make in rendering the world and the cognitive mistakes we make. Eugene Gendlin, in his philosophical works, has an interesting take on this.

The problem of subjective reality is that it's really hard to spot the limits of something that seems so real and spot the choices/errors we have made in creating it. Hence the usefulness of the ninth consciousness. Hence also why the ninth consciousness is said to 'purify' the other consciousnessess when it is active and operative.

Once one can see clearly, one then has a better basis for living well. Again, there similarities with this view, which could be said to be reliance on the Law, and with Gendlin's research in his counselling works, suggest the same phenomenon.

As Nichiren once said, attaining Buddhahood is nothing extraordinary. I think he's right. It is a purely natural function with us that should be simple but that gets overcomplicated and sometimes deliberately so by those with vested interests.

Most of the problem of becoming enlightened and routinely using enlightenment as an aid to living comes from trying to get past the compelling delusion of the perception we are presented with, which is created by the workings of the unenlightened 8 consciousnessess.

Just to make things more difficult, there is money to be made and power to be had by keeping people in an unenlightened state and keeping them dependent. It's unsurprising that any teachings and teachers that advocate and deliver people into the independence of their enlightened minds meet with persecution and resistance.

In today's world, that's probably most typified by powerful corporations that have become adept at using the nudges of behavioural economics and the insights that come from data mining, psychological profiling and neurological research to inform and drive whole marketing industries that effectively influence behaviour in unenlightened people.

Not that all powerful organisation are problematic but for some, can you imagine how undesirable a massive outbreak of enlightenment and thus independence, would be in the world population? People would be much harder to control, heavens they might even start thinking for themselves, challenging inequalities and elites. The share prices of some could plummet and careers left in tatters.

That's why a clear focus on reliance on the Law and steadfast faith are needed. It's the only route past an internal reality that is so compulsively believable even when it is so flawed and which is so ably supported and encouraged by elements in the external world.

This is indeed a difficult age...

>

Chas.

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Dec 19, 2015, 8:51:02 AM12/19/15

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It's fairly straightforward. Nikken enscribed the Gohonzon received by SGI members after Nittatsu passed in 1979 (roughly) and until the mass excommunication in 1991 (roughly).

Nikken was a false High Priest who never received the transfer from Nittatsu, but pretended to grasp the top spot and then destroyed everything Nittatsu built in trying to unsuccessfully extort the Transfer Box from Nittatsu's family, hated the SGI to the level of excommunication, and who thought the DaiGohonzon was a fake (Kawabe memo.)

Chanting to a Gohonzon enscribed by someone who loathed and betrayed you and all of Buddhism was painful to SGI members on every level, from shallow to deep.

After Sensei secured the Nichikan Gohonzon for SGI members to receive, SGI members possessing the Nikken Gohonzon were encouraged to exchange their Nikken Gohonzon for Nichikan Gohonzon. This made a lot of people very happy.

Not a precept.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 19, 2015, 9:32:05 AM12/19/15

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Correction to this statement:

"You may have had similar "experiences" of SGI life."

That is made against the backdrop of the quotion further down.

The simple answer is no, my experience of SGI life has been very positive. The embedded assumption in the statement quoted is as follows: If you (I) had experienced a positive SGI life, I would have formed the same mystical bind with 'Sensei' and therefore I would not see anything but good in the SGI or Mr Ikeda. So by extension, I must have had a negative SGI life and not formed the proper bond with 'sensei' and not been protected by the mentor-disciple relationship. Therefore, by further extension I am in the 'other' group and therefore what I say can be dismissed.

OK now for the truth, not only have I had a very positive experience of SGI and its NST lay society forerunner, not only am I on record for having Saud so and credited Mr Ikeda but it is precisely because of taking careful note of what Mr Ikeda taught and of those wonderful people who helped me shape my faith that I dissent in some areas not.

I will not have the a lazy labelling applied, particularly when it is not accurate or true.

Let's be really clear about this, SGI teaching and those credited to Mr Ikeda have objectively changed. One can see that objectively by comparison of then and now teachings, side-by-side and like-for-like.

This is not a product of the internal workings of an imagining compelling deluded internal subjective reality, this is careful side-by-side textual analysis. Clearly there are differences.

I am true to what I embraced and was taught and remain so. I have put that into practice to great effect and continue to.

My view is that SGI has and is deviating from that true root, so as I am obliged to, as the SGI charter exhorts me to, I speak out.

It is unsurprising that those who would see an organisation they profess to fervently follow and a person who they have all but apothosised, try and dismiss such inconvenient views.

Every time an indisputable point is put it is ignored. As was the case in the textual analysis using Mr Ikeda's lectures on the same Gosho, then and now. Heaven forbid that objectivivity should get in the way of a nicely running, 6 fold thalamus feedback created subjective thrall We really don't want to disturb that Nice warm cosy golden glow now do we?

Such fake followers are like so many cunning and cowardly foxes barking in the night. They care naught for their organization nor their 'sensei' and even less for the Law.

So long as their selfish beliefs remain intact and they can continue to live in La, La land with the warmth of their golden internal reality decorated with black mystical Chinese characters on a pure white background floating in the air, like a bad rendition of the "The Bullet Proof Monk", they're happy. And they'll go to any length's to keep it that way.

This was the pitiful attempt at a slur on my SGI experience (rofl):

"So, when David Cole was standing guard outside the chamber where President Ikeda was having personal meetings with one after another young women's division leader for many hours in Southern California all those years ago ... he perceived Sensei having sex with all those girls one after another in an act of superhuman sexual prowess unmatched by any human male in history. It was the only way he could explain what was progressing, and I'm sure he received visual, aural and other sense queues to reinforce that world model in his cortex. This was because he did not have the mentor and disciple relationship to protect him from the demons that arise at the beckoning of the devil king in all people who chant and attempt to attain enlightenment to challenge the dominion of the devil king over the six worlds.

You may have had similar "experiences" of SGI life."

Good luck with trying to get anyone who knows me, including our current and two previous General Director's to support your view and your slur.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 19, 2015, 10:05:43 AM12/19/15

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Alex, it is fairly straightforward...

"It's fairly straightforward. Nikken enscribed the Gohonzon received by SGI members after Nittatsu passed in 1979 (roughly) and until the mass excommunication in 1991 (roughly).

Nikken was a false High Priest who never received the transfer from Nittatsu, but pretended to grasp the top spot and then destroyed everything Nittatsu built in trying to unsuccessfully extort the Transfer Box from Nittatsu's family, hated the SGI to the level of excommunication, and who thought the DaiGohonzon was a fake (Kawabe memo.)"

Thus was the same false high priest that supported the SGI and Mr Ikeda against the Shoshinkai priests and who was supported fervently by SGI and Mr Ikeda. Happy to supply the direct quotes and page numbers from Buddhism in Action series. Ah bit you must remember, I'm a defective SGI member who is in the thrall of the Devil King of the sixth heaven, I just can't help myself...

"Chanting to a Gohonzon enscribed by someone who loathed and betrayed you and all of Buddhism was painful to SGI members on every level, from shallow to deep."

So we quite happily did this and lived with this pain, rather than de enshrine our Gohonzon's at home and in the community centres for oh what 3 or 4 years? Of course SGI guidance was simply that Gohonzon is Gohonzon, is Gohonzon at the time, like Tramadol, that made the pain on every level, from shallow to deep more bearable. (Daimoku and sound faith had nothing to do with it by the way...)

"After Sensei secured the Nichikan Gohonzon for SGI members to receive, SGI members possessing the Nikken Gohonzon were encouraged to exchange their Nikken Gohonzon for Nichikan Gohonzon. This made a lot of people very happy.

Not a precept."

So why on earth was it at all relevant to the earlier discussion Alex? Can you with your independent eyes looking over this tread tell me why something that was just an exchange and isn't a precept was in anyway relevant?

Ah but maybe it was just intel gathering. Who knows...

Alex Beauroy

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Dec 20, 2015, 7:45:04 AM12/20/15

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So if i understand you are saying that some of the Nittatsu Hosoi and
Abe Nikken 's transcriptions of the Honzon are not the object of
worship???????????????
What is this story of the Kawabe memo????
Let me know please
@lex

Alex Beauroy

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Dec 20, 2015, 8:20:16 AM12/20/15

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Cas !!! Last year :
""""""""""""""""""""So Chas If I understand you just wrote this : "
President Harada is not saying that the Dai-Gohonzon is something other
than that which is the subject of the Second Silent Prayer. What he is
saying is that since Taiseki-ji is a place of the worst possible slander
of the Law, it cannot be visited for Tozan ("in terms of actual practice")."
So why was you asking for :
"Publication reference, please." in your previous post??????????
Did you have "doubts"????

Now I'll tell you what President Minoru Harada, sixth president of the
Soka Gakkai said on on November the 7th 2014
It is available in the Seiko Shimbun : An article in the November 8,
2014, Seikyo shimbun newspaper (a Soka Gakkai publication) reported
an announcement that was made at a Gakkai general meeting held on
November 7, stating that the regulations and doctrinal articles of the Soka
Gakkai would be revised. Subsequently, at the nationwide prefectural
directors’
meeting, President Minoru Harada [sixth president of the Soka Gakkai]
explained the particulars, indicating that “the Soka Gakkai will certify the
Gohonzon for kosen-rufu” and “the Dai-Gohonzon inscribed on October
12 of the second year of Ko’an (1279) no longer will be upheld as the
[fundamental
source].”
The Gakkai organization embarked upon a surprising course that goes
directly against Nichiren Daishonin by separating itself from the Dai-
Gohonzon.

Now we are all waiting for your comments.

"May the impartial benefits of Myo-Ho Renge Kyo spread equally to the
farthest reaches of the universe so that you Chas, together with all
other existence, may attain the tranquil state of enlightened life"
Chant Chas!!!
Chant Cha(rle)s!!!
Chant to eradicate your many past and present slanders against the
Law!!!!!!!!!!
Do you remember that one last yerar????
@lex

Chas.

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Dec 20, 2015, 9:02:53 AM12/20/15

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Didn't say you had those experiences.

Was saying that the mentor and disciple relationship is protective against such experiences.

Sorry you took it that way, was truly speaking from the heart.

-Chas.

Chas.

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Dec 28, 2015, 10:19:41 AM12/28/15

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On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 4:21:24 AM UTC-8, iainx...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks Chas and likewise. My holiday has been filled with good people and good vibes. Truely I am blessed in this regard as I hope you are also. But the world is still a difficult place and many are not so fortunate, my enjoyment is tempered by this fact.
>
> The change in doctrine should be obvious from the thread. I presented a like for like, side by side comparison of Mr Ikeda's lectures on the same gosho, one in 1979 the other in 2009 to support my assertion that Gohonzon had been de-emphasised and replaced by an emphasis on the mentor-disciple relationship. I did thus because you disputed my assertion. You did not address my comparison directly but made the statement to the effect that the change can be explained by learning since the SGI split with the priesthood (and so presumably legitimate). This is the change in doctrine. To stop emphasising Gohonzon and trying to develop correct faith in it as a means to enlightenment and instead emphasise the mentor-disciple relationship and develop a correct relationship with the mentor as a means to enlightenment is a fundamental change of doctrine. Such a change is not legitimate in terms of Nichiren's teaching nor in terms of SGI teaching of that earlier period. It cannot be explained away by claiming it is learning acquisition since the priesthood split. It is just wrong in terms of the two criteria I set out above.

You are inserting another topic again, instead of dealing with my refutation of your claim that the Immeasurable Meanings Sutra is provisional: it is not and you are wrong about that.

The Lotus Sutra is the highest teaching, both complete and final.

The accompanying sutras are concurrent with the Lotus Sutra, and the Nirvana Sutra is after the Lotus Sutra. None of those are provisional and therefore candidates for discarding.

Before means "preceding the beginning of" and not "concurrent with".

"I have profound reverence for you, I would never dare treat you with disparagement or arrogance. Why? Because you are all practicing the bodhisattva way and are certain to attain Buddhahood." - Bodhisattva Never Disparaging.

-Chas.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 28, 2015, 12:07:59 PM12/28/15

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I answered the point on provisional/true in the other thread and I did not 'change' topic. Read your own posts Chas, you asked about the change of doctrine, so I answered that.

You are conflating provisional with discarding. Again you make the same error. The two are not synonymous but I can see why you might do that. Again, this comes down to mixing frames.

With regard to before and after versus concurrent, it simply isn't relevant. Even if Immeasurable Meanings were preached at the same time as the great Law is expounded, it makes no difference. The key point is that it is a separate entity and in being so, it does not teach or reveal the great Law. That is why it is inferior, the timing of its preaching or whether or not it is referred in the Sutra, is if no consequence.

In so many of these exchanges, you argue like a dog refusing to let go of its bone, only to have it finally prised from your jaws with incontrovertible evidence, then you run off to the next bone to pick. When questioned on the non response to the proof, you disemble, play dumb or attempt to distract.

It's not hard Chas, just read the Gosho and chant sincerely about it. Quoting isn't the same as studying. What I can't understand is that people of my generation of SGI were taught to do that and that remained so until about mid 2000's, so how comes you weren't?

iainx...@gmail.com

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Dec 28, 2015, 1:59:06 PM12/28/15

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Against my better judgment, I'll throw you a bone Chas, this is probably a good place to start in the Gosho to understand the relative merits of each Sutra and the collection of Immeasurable Meanings, Lotus & Nirvana sutras.

In the first paragraph of the quote below, Nichiren makes the distinction between the three Sutras mentioned above and all other sutras.

In the second paragraph, he makes distinctions between these three sutras. Note that Nichiren is treating each sutra as a distinct entity. Note also that he reserves the highest place for the Lotus Sutra and note his reasons for doing so. So yes, Immeasurable Meanings is Ghee but no, it is not the Lotus Sutra, it is inferior to the latter and so provisional in terms of the latter. Should it be discarded? No but then again it is not necessary for the aims of the Lotus Sutra to be achieved. The Gosho quote below should also help you understand this point.

Put another way, if you were escaping a burning building and you could take one of these three Sutras with you but only one because you could not carry more than one, which would you take with you? There is only one right answer in terms of Nichiren's teachings. More importantly, why would you make that choice, because Nichiren told you too? Or because of the reason Miao-Lo gives below?

King Rinda

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/136#para-4

"[Among all the Buddhist teachings] the Āgama sutras may be compared to the flavor of milk; the Meditation and the other sutras of the Correct and Equal period may be compared to the flavor of cream; the Wisdom sutras may be compared to the flavor of curdled milk; the Flower Garland Sutra may be compared to the flavor of butter; and the Immeasurable Meanings, Lotus, and Nirvana sutras may be compared to the flavor of ghee.

Again, if the Nirvana Sutra is compared to the flavor of ghee, then the Lotus Sutra may be compared to a lord who rules over the five flavors. Thus the Great Teacher Miao-lo stated: “If we discuss the matter from the point of view of the doctrines taught, then the Lotus Sutra stands as the true lord of all the teachings, since it alone preaches ‘opening the provisional and revealing the distant.’ This is the reason that it alone is permitted the word myō, or ‘wonderful’ [in its title].”1 He also said, “Therefore, we understand that the Lotus Sutra is the true lord of the ghee.”

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iainx...@gmail.com

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Feb 10, 2016, 2:11:58 PM2/10/16

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.

iainx...@gmail.com

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Feb 15, 2016, 2:35:24 PM2/15/16

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I quote directly from the definition of the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin given on the inside cover of "UK Express" (UKE) July 1999 No. 337 and contrast this with the "Common terms" given on the inside cover of later the "Art of Living" (AoL) magazines that replace the UKE.

UKE:

Layout. Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin occupies the top 2/3s of the page and a glossary of terms sits in a separate panel below.

The first paragraph of the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin states this:

"The three fundamental aspects of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism are faith, practice and study. Faith means to believe in Gohonzon. Practice means to chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo and perform gongyo twice daily and to teach others to do the same. Study means to read the Writings of Nichiren Daishonin and apply them to our daily lives. Among these three, faith is the most fundamental for the attainment of Buddhahood. Faith gives rise to practice and study; practice and study serve to deepen one's faith."

What's not to like?

Next, Nam myoho renge kyo is defined.

Next the Gohonzon is defined thus:

"The embodiment of the Law of Nam myoho renge kyo in the form of a mandala. Honzon means object of fundamental respect' go means 'worthy of honour'.

"The Gohonzon most often takes the form of a paper scroll inscribed with Chinese and Sanskrit characters in black sumi ink. Together, these characters represent life in its highest condition: Buddhahood. Down the centre of the Gohonzon, in characters larger and bolder than the rest, is written: Nam myoho renge kyo Nichiren.

"Nichiren Daishonin taught that one who takes faith in and chants to the Gohonzon, and who teaches others to do the same, will definitely attain the same life condition of Buddhahood as he himself possessed.

All Gohonzon are transcriptions based on the Dai Gohonzon, which Nichiren Daishonin inscribed on 12th October, 1279, and which is enshrined at Taiseki-ji at the foot of Mount Fuji Japan."

The next and last paragraph in thus section explains Gongyo.

The glossary terms in the separate panel at the bottom of the inside cover are:

Boshisattvas of the Earth
Buddha
Butsudan
Daimoku
Gosho
Human revolution
Ichinen Sanzen
Karma
Kosen Rufu
Lotus Sutra
Nichiren Daishonin
Shakyamuni
Soka Gakkai
Ten worlds

Conclusion, this layout and content on the first page of the magazine (which was common to all the series) is clearly focused on explaining the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin to new people and helping SGI members to explain it to others. It gives prominence to faith, practice, study and explains these in terms of the Gohonzon. Excellent, excellent!

Now the same inside cover from the AoL. I pick April 2015 issue 166 but have checked others across the series. They have identical layout and content.

Top banner of page (1/7th): Info about SGI UK, contact, website and affiliates.

The remainder of the page is divided into 4 panels. One vertical down the left side and occupying 1/3 page width (6/7 page height): Commonly used words and phrases

Kosen rufu
Nam myoho renge kyo
Gohonzon (I'll give the definition further down)
Human revolution.
The top right panel under the banner (2/3w x 3/7h) "SGI & SGI UK" explains the organisation and it's mission. This does make a brief reference to "belief and practice of Nichiren Buddhism" by does not define it or explain it in terms of Gohonzon. Likewise practice and study are briefly mentioned but not defined.

Panel below that (2/3w x just over 1/7h), "Why Practice Buddhism".

Panel below that (ditto dimensions) "SGI Charter purposes and principles.

Again in the above two panels Nichiren Buddhism is named but not defined or explained.

The only place on this page where Gohonzon is mentioned is in the left hand panel thus:

"Gohonzon: Members of SGI carry out their daily practice of chanting to a scroll which is a visual representation of the life-state of Buddhahood inscribed by Nichiren Daishonin."

That's it by the way. Placement is second from the bottom just above the definition of Human Revolution.

Conclusion, this page is focussed on the organisation. It refers to Nichiren Buddhism but doesn't tell you what that is it what it's essentials are.

It tells new people about the SGI, why the should practice Buddhism (with the SGI) and about the SGI. It enables members to tell people the same.

You choose. I prefer the UKE, it was soundly based and focused on Nichiren's teaching, clearly but simply explaining it "Faith in the Gohonzon".

What does the second tell us? Only about the SGI really. Nothing about "Faith in the Gohonzon" being the central premise of Nichiren's teaching just vague statements that it is Nichiren Buddhism and you chant to a scroll called Gohonzon.

SGI elsewhere has clearly stated that it teaches the way of mentor-disciple.

Some may object that the mentor might teach about the Gohonzon, so this is included. But note the difference, the UKE stance means one can access their highest state of life directly and tells them how on the very first page. It is a teaching of self reliance and independence, nothing else is needed...and maybe that's the problem...nothing else is needed, no mentor, simply faith, practice and study (of Nichiren' writings)...

kahlei...@gmail.com

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May 16, 2016, 12:43:28 PM5/16/16

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Bumping

Richard

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May 17, 2016, 9:10:16 PM5/17/16

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In the Gosho 'The meaning of faith. The Daishonin clearly states: "The Meaning of Faith

"What we call faith is nothing extraordinary. As a woman cherishes her husband, as a man will give his life for his wife, as parents will not abandon their children, or as a child refuses to leave his mother, so should we put our trust in the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni, Taho, and all the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the ten directions, as well as the heavenly gods and benevolent deities, and chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. This is what is meant by faith. Moreover, you should ponder the sutra passages, "Honestly discarding the provisional teachings" and "Not accepting even a single verse from any of the other sutras" and never be of a mind to abandon them, just as a woman will not throw away her mirror or as a man always wears his sword."

Respectfully,
Nichiren

The eighteenth day of the fifth month

Major Writings of Nichiren Daishonin, Vol. 5, page 303.

kahlei...@gmail.com

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May 20, 2016, 2:44:57 PM5/20/16

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Thank you for this interesting discussion