Some words from slink about C1, C2, and true AL
Chris Pfeiler
I´m in email contact with Sandra Linkletter and I asked her of course
about her final post here and her reasoning in it that the norns were
robbed of their possibility to become true AL. I have her permission
to post parts of her mail here and I´m very grateful for that.
BTW, regarding my plan to bring back some ontopic-business to agc,
she has this to say: "Yes, why not drop a pebble in the still pond,
and watch the ripples spread. *laughs*"
So let them spread. Here are some detailled thoughts on C1, C2 and
AL in general from slink:
---------
Creatures 1 was on the right track for what Steve Grand envisioned,
which was an virtual life-form which could evolve into forms most
fit for their environment. There were two flaws in the model, in C1.
The first was that the brain was not expandable, and to a minor degree
behavior was hardwired to certain responses. One can see that when a
norn is stuck in repetitive behavior, and it's motor control messages
are sending "left" over and over again. I think this had something to
do with the interface between the senses and the brain.
The second was the lack of mass-energy constraints. Mutations which
created matter from nothing could occur. When this happened, the
norn possessing the mutation had a great advantage over otherwise much
fitter norns. As an overwhelmingly positive mutation, it caused the
perpetuation of strains of norns with painful and even lethal medical
conditions. Thinking back, I feel great pleasure over the studies
that I and others did of the C1 norns.
I am not certain that anyone but Steve Grand understood the second
problem, and he was heavily criticized in the academic AL circles
for the lack of mass-energy constraints. They phrased it in jargon
of their trade, but basically what they said was that if you leave
a hole in a container, water will always find it. That is not helpful
when one is trying to study the behavior of water in a container.
C2 promised to remedy the first problem. However, the promise of C2
was compromised by the realities of the marketplace. First of all,
they had to design a new system from scratch because of their split
from the portion of the company who owned the rights to the original
program. I believe that was Millennium? Then, well into the project,
they decided to completely rewrite the graphics engine because it was
too slow as it was. This set everything else back at a time when the
game only had a few months to release.
They had a genuine neural network expert on their staff, but I believe
that nothing much was actually ever done with what appeared on paper
to be a complex and interesting model for the AI. I believe this was
due in part to time constraints, and also because their game engine
could not support all the eye candy and also do a proper job on the AI.
I remember getting complaints because my pre-birth instinct genes took
more than 30 seconds to run. They said Creatures was supposed to be an
interactive game, and players would be bored if the eggs did not hatch
immediately when placed in the incubator.
I probably made the biochemistry overcomplicated for a game program. I
confess to that, but I feel it was a good piece of work regardless.
The appearance genes were as many in number as the biochemistry genes,
which reflects the priorities of CyberLife. When the game was released,
it was quickly apparent to me that they had coded in behavior that
should have been learned. That is, they had turned AL into a virtual
pet. Furthermore, it was a virtual pet that died quickly in many ways,
because it was supposed to be learning how to live and not following
some predetermined pattern.
One wry comment that I can make is that the behavior of a species of
animal should not be coded by a team of single young men, working
over one weekend to decide the proper priorities of needs, who have
no personal experience with keeping even so much as a pet dog.
It was possible to change the behavior of a C1 norn by editing the
brain lobes, but not as much as it seemed it ought to be. It is
possible that the degree to which the C1 norns were hard-coded was
much higher than I realized. However, I do believe firmly that
Steve Grand meant for them to be more than a game. I believe that
the neural network model in the white paper for C2 was a valid model.
What Toby Simpson did with it is obvious. It's very possible that
Cyberlife always meant to milk Steve Grand's professional reputation,
and never make a true AL. They never even granted that I had one to
milk, which could be a source of bitterness to me if I had not moved
on in life.
Whether or not the C2 norns could ever have become conscious, had they
been made properly, I don't know. Some people still believe that
animals aren't conscious, so it is apparent that the very word has
problems of definition.
-----
Thanks again to slink (if she is reading this post) for the permission
to post it here.
Chris
emmel
> Now here is something interesting (I hope) for the small community.
>
> I´m in email contact with Sandra Linkletter and I asked her of course
> about her final post here and her reasoning in it that the norns were
> robbed of their possibility to become true AL. I have her permission
> to post parts of her mail here and I´m very grateful for that.
>
> BTW, regarding my plan to bring back some ontopic-business to agc,
> she has this to say: "Yes, why not drop a pebble in the still pond,
> and watch the ripples spread. *laughs*"
<bg>
> So let them spread. Here are some detailled thoughts on C1, C2 and
> AL in general from slink:
>
> ---------
>
> Creatures 1 was on the right track for what Steve Grand envisioned,
> which was an virtual life-form which could evolve into forms most
> fit for their environment. There were two flaws in the model, in C1.
>
> The first was that the brain was not expandable, and to a minor degree
> behavior was hardwired to certain responses. One can see that when a
> norn is stuck in repetitive behavior, and it's motor control messages
> are sending "left" over and over again. I think this had something to
> do with the interface between the senses and the brain.
>
> The second was the lack of mass-energy constraints. Mutations which
> created matter from nothing could occur. When this happened, the
> norn possessing the mutation had a great advantage over otherwise much
> fitter norns. As an overwhelmingly positive mutation, it caused the
> perpetuation of strains of norns with painful and even lethal medical
> conditions. Thinking back, I feel great pleasure over the studies
> that I and others did of the C1 norns.
Highlander and sweet genes... Not that great.
> I am not certain that anyone but Steve Grand understood the second
> problem, and he was heavily criticized in the academic AL circles
> for the lack of mass-energy constraints. They phrased it in jargon
> of their trade, but basically what they said was that if you leave
> a hole in a container, water will always find it. That is not helpful
> when one is trying to study the behavior of water in a container.
Well, yes, that's what evolution is all about, after all.
> C2 promised to remedy the first problem. However, the promise of C2
> was compromised by the realities of the marketplace. First of all,
> they had to design a new system from scratch because of their split
> from the portion of the company who owned the rights to the original
> program. I believe that was Millennium? Then, well into the project,
> they decided to completely rewrite the graphics engine because it was
> too slow as it was. This set everything else back at a time when the
> game only had a few months to release.
>
> They had a genuine neural network expert on their staff, but I believe
> that nothing much was actually ever done with what appeared on paper
> to be a complex and interesting model for the AI. I believe this was
> due in part to time constraints, and also because their game engine
> could not support all the eye candy and also do a proper job on the AI.
> I remember getting complaints because my pre-birth instinct genes took
> more than 30 seconds to run. They said Creatures was supposed to be an
> interactive game, and players would be bored if the eggs did not hatch
> immediately when placed in the incubator.
As if they ever did...
The mirror test is quite accepted as an indicator of consciousness
(actually self-awareness, but the one isn't possible with the other),
and quite a few people pass that. Octopuses did recently, after the
involved cameras/screen became fast enough; they perceive 25
pictures/second as stills.
> -----
>
> Thanks again to slink (if she is reading this post) for the permission
> to post it here.
>
> Chris
Good to hear she isn't full of bitterness. She broke with Creatures in a
very roundabout manner, IIRC. If anyone manages to figure out what I
mean.
Tell her the mere mortals great the great old one ;-)
--
emmel <the_emmel*you-know-what-that's-for*@gmx.net>
(Don't forget to remove the ** bit)
story archives available at http://ranira.wordpress.com
Official AGC feedback maniac
Proud owner of 1 (one) DISOBEDIENCE point.
Former owner of 1 (one) eating point (eaten, sigh).
Chris Pfeiler
> > The second was the lack of mass-energy constraints. Mutations which
> > created matter from nothing could occur. When this happened, the
> > norn possessing the mutation had a great advantage over otherwise much
> > fitter norns. As an overwhelmingly positive mutation, it caused the
> > perpetuation of strains of norns with painful and even lethal medical
> > conditions. Thinking back, I feel great pleasure over the studies
> > that I and others did of the C1 norns.
>
> Highlander and sweet genes... Not that great.
I must admit that I sometimes like to play with immortal norns (the
mutation with always 97 - 99% lifeforce and glucose/glycogen always
kept on maximum level by magic forces, thus no hunger and nothing in
Albia that could harm them in any serious way.)
Sounds boring and certainly isn´t true AL, but sometimes it´s also
interesting to work with such norns. Plus if there´s a really good
one, it´s nice to know that it could be around forever, even if it
will get a little cranky past its 30th hour of life ;-). There is
of course the danger of an overcrowded world (or harddisk), but I
play very selective and usually just keep 10 - 15 norns.
But the talk about mutations brings me to another topic: slink said
one of the problems of C1 was, that the brain was not expandable.
So what about the mutation that creates norns with 36 or 37 brain
lobes and 3816 or 3922 neurons? I have a couple of them, but don´t
remember how they came to be, I think it was natural and they just
popped out of eggs (but how can one mutation cause the lobe number
to triple? I never understood that.)
I guess you all know the mutation, here´s a screenshot with details:
http://misfits.drts.org/genetik.htm
The exp-files of such norns are pretty large, up to 420 KB in size.
I don´t know why, as the size varies often for a couple of KB from
norn to norn, I guess it has something to do with reserved space for
the dendrites.
Now I´m of course aware that the 3922 neurons and 37 lobes are yet
pretty pointless, as they can´t be utilized by the norn brain. But
still - isn´t it an example of expansion of the C1 brain? At least
an expansion of possible "room" that would just need something to
give a logical network structure to it?
> > I remember getting complaints because my pre-birth instinct genes took
> > more than 30 seconds to run. They said Creatures was supposed to be an
> > interactive game, and players would be bored if the eggs did not hatch
> > immediately when placed in the incubator.
>
> As if they ever did...
But here we have something I consider as the main problem of later
Creatures games: the need for speed and the easy accessibility for
a larger group of consumers.
The pre-birth insticts are in principle one of the most brilliant
original ideas of Steve Grand, as they provide you with a creature
that still has to learn a lot but is also able to survive at least
for a while without teaching. That is much better than hard-coded
behaviour and a simplification to make it faster is simply wrong.
> The mirror test is quite accepted as an indicator of consciousness
> (actually self-awareness, but the one isn't possible with the other),
> and quite a few people pass that. Octopuses did recently, after the
> involved cameras/screen became fast enough; they perceive 25
> pictures/second as stills.
But the mirror test is IMO still inconclusive in certain ways.
A good example are parrots. I remember there was one extremely "smart"
parrot named Alex (he died in the meantime) who had a large vocabulary
and could use it in a logical way to voice his thoughts and needs, to
identify colors and shapes and even to select objects if his teacher
told him to get this and that. There are some clips on youtube which
show him doing such stuff. He clearly seemed to be a sentient being,
unless it was again just a cunning illusion. Alas, the research into
animal consciousness is full of such illusions.
As far as I know (correct me if I´m wrong), a parrot has never passed
the mirror test yet, not even Alex. So on one hand they seem to have
the possibility to make a clear distinction between themselves and the
outside world (from what I read, Alex refered to himself in the third
person) but on the other hand they cannot identify their own image in
a mirror.
That reminds me: the new, highly advanced 2D Creatures version should
have a mirror among its objects :-).
In a not completely unrelated matter: Seeing that you are a writer
of fiction and hearing from Neo that you are probably German, you
might be intested in some of my stuff.
It´s about a (yet) fictional animated tv series with until now 146
episode ideas in 8 seasons, story scripts and tons of other stuff,
including an own series of comics (well, if one can call two issues
a series, the third one will be published this year.)
It´s all on my website:
I mention it, because there is a complete script for an episode that
deals with animal consciousness and illusions. You can find the story
in the storyscript section as the eighth script titled "Miss Halsey".
Just in case you are interested. It´s not my best story, some readers
complained that it is too dry and technical in parts, but one can also
read it without knowing all the background story.
> Good to hear she isn't full of bitterness. She broke with Creatures in a
> very roundabout manner, IIRC. If anyone manages to figure out what I
> mean.
> Tell her the mere mortals great the great old one ;-)
I will let her know, even if I promised already two times that I won´t
bother her again with my old Creatures stuff ;-).
Chris
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>
>> > The second was the lack of mass-energy constraints. Mutations which
>> > created matter from nothing could occur. When this happened, the
>> > norn possessing the mutation had a great advantage over otherwise much
>> > fitter norns. As an overwhelmingly positive mutation, it caused the
>> > perpetuation of strains of norns with painful and even lethal medical
>> > conditions. Thinking back, I feel great pleasure over the studies
>> > that I and others did of the C1 norns.
>>
>> Highlander and sweet genes... Not that great.
>
> I must admit that I sometimes like to play with immortal norns (the
> mutation with always 97 - 99% lifeforce and glucose/glycogen always
> kept on maximum level by magic forces, thus no hunger and nothing in
> Albia that could harm them in any serious way.)
They were walking dead, rather than alive. Perhaps the only real undead
in the history of this planet...
> Sounds boring and certainly isn´t true AL, but sometimes it´s also
> interesting to work with such norns. Plus if there´s a really good
> one, it´s nice to know that it could be around forever, even if it
> will get a little cranky past its 30th hour of life ;-). There is
> of course the danger of an overcrowded world (or harddisk), but I
> play very selective and usually just keep 10 - 15 norns.
What about the others? Euthanasia?
> But the talk about mutations brings me to another topic: slink said
> one of the problems of C1 was, that the brain was not expandable.
>
> So what about the mutation that creates norns with 36 or 37 brain
> lobes and 3816 or 3922 neurons? I have a couple of them, but don´t
> remember how they came to be, I think it was natural and they just
> popped out of eggs (but how can one mutation cause the lobe number
> to triple? I never understood that.)
I think some people altered the genomes, but even with more neurons,
things were pretty limited and even hardcoded in part, IIRC.
> I guess you all know the mutation, here´s a screenshot with details:
>
> http://misfits.drts.org/genetik.htm
>
> The exp-files of such norns are pretty large, up to 420 KB in size.
> I don´t know why, as the size varies often for a couple of KB from
> norn to norn, I guess it has something to do with reserved space for
> the dendrites.
>
> Now I´m of course aware that the 3922 neurons and 37 lobes are yet
> pretty pointless, as they can´t be utilized by the norn brain. But
> still - isn´t it an example of expansion of the C1 brain? At least
> an expansion of possible "room" that would just need something to
> give a logical network structure to it?
You should probably ask slink for the specifics.
>> > I remember getting complaints because my pre-birth instinct genes took
>> > more than 30 seconds to run. They said Creatures was supposed to be an
>> > interactive game, and players would be bored if the eggs did not hatch
>> > immediately when placed in the incubator.
>>
>> As if they ever did...
>
> But here we have something I consider as the main problem of later
> Creatures games: the need for speed and the easy accessibility for
> a larger group of consumers.
>
> The pre-birth insticts are in principle one of the most brilliant
> original ideas of Steve Grand, as they provide you with a creature
> that still has to learn a lot but is also able to survive at least
> for a while without teaching. That is much better than hard-coded
> behaviour and a simplification to make it faster is simply wrong.
::nods::
That's also a lot like our own instincts. Dropping any random number
generators (at least as far as the Norns were concerned; many COBs used
them) was another great concept.
>> The mirror test is quite accepted as an indicator of consciousness
>> (actually self-awareness, but the one isn't possible with the other),
>> and quite a few people pass that. Octopuses did recently, after the
>> involved cameras/screen became fast enough; they perceive 25
>> pictures/second as stills.
>
> But the mirror test is IMO still inconclusive in certain ways.
>
> A good example are parrots. I remember there was one extremely "smart"
> parrot named Alex (he died in the meantime) who had a large vocabulary
> and could use it in a logical way to voice his thoughts and needs, to
> identify colors and shapes and even to select objects if his teacher
> told him to get this and that. There are some clips on youtube which
> show him doing such stuff. He clearly seemed to be a sentient being,
> unless it was again just a cunning illusion. Alas, the research into
> animal consciousness is full of such illusions.
>
> As far as I know (correct me if I´m wrong), a parrot has never passed
> the mirror test yet, not even Alex. So on one hand they seem to have
> the possibility to make a clear distinction between themselves and the
> outside world (from what I read, Alex refered to himself in the third
> person) but on the other hand they cannot identify their own image in
> a mirror.
As I said: It's actually a test for self-awareness. That's a level
above. Even humans need a couple of years before they pass that test,
and nobody is going to tell you they aren't consciousness from birth.
Don't know about parrots, actually, but if you really care, you might
want to conduct a little web search.
> That reminds me: the new, highly advanced 2D Creatures version should
> have a mirror among its objects :-).
IIRC in C3 the engine allowed for Norns to distinguish between
individuals for the first time, but even then the way a Norn 'sees' it's
world won't allow for any such thing.
> In a not completely unrelated matter: Seeing that you are a writer
> of fiction and hearing from Neo that you are probably German, you
> might be intested in some of my stuff.
Oh my. I'm not much of a writer actually, it's more that I write...
> It´s about a (yet) fictional animated tv series with until now 146
> episode ideas in 8 seasons, story scripts and tons of other stuff,
> including an own series of comics (well, if one can call two issues
> a series, the third one will be published this year.)
>
> It´s all on my website:
>
> http://misfits.drts.org/
>
> I mention it, because there is a complete script for an episode that
> deals with animal consciousness and illusions. You can find the story
> in the storyscript section as the eighth script titled "Miss Halsey".
> Just in case you are interested. It´s not my best story, some readers
> complained that it is too dry and technical in parts, but one can also
> read it without knowing all the background story.
I'll *maybe* have a look. No promises, though.
>> Good to hear she isn't full of bitterness. She broke with Creatures in a
>> very roundabout manner, IIRC. If anyone manages to figure out what I
>> mean.
>> Tell her the mere mortals great the great old one ;-)
>
> I will let her know, even if I promised already two times that I won´t
> bother her again with my old Creatures stuff ;-).
Sooner or later she'll descend to your plain of existence and unleash
her terribly fury upon you. Make sure to take a few pictures when that
happens, someone might shell out some bucks for those, but even if not
they will make a nice souvenir to hang above your ashes.
Chris Pfeiler
> > I must admit that I sometimes like to play with immortal norns (the
> > mutation with always 97 - 99% lifeforce and glucose/glycogen always
> > kept on maximum level by magic forces, thus no hunger and nothing in
> > Albia that could harm them in any serious way.)
>
> They were walking dead, rather than alive. Perhaps the only real undead
> in the history of this planet...
Nope, the 0% lifeforce norns are the walking dead (that is, if they
are more active than a norn with 0% should be.) The 99% were more or
less a simple abomination unto the Lord of true AL. Or maybe the real
abomination starts with 100% and above and everything slightly below
is just some sort of gray area ;-).
> > of course the danger of an overcrowded world (or harddisk), but I
> > play very selective and usually just keep 10 - 15 norns.
>
> What about the others? Euthanasia?
File deletion. Or adding them to a big zip file for later use.
> IIRC in C3 the engine allowed for Norns to distinguish between
> individuals for the first time, but even then the way a Norn 'sees' it's
> world won't allow for any such thing.
In a small way they can make distinctions already in C1. If you check
the brain lobes with a monitoring tool, there is a lobe called General
Senses Lobe. There are some general senses that say "It is a creature",
"It is a norn", "It is opposite sex", but also more specific ones like
"It is my sibling", "It is my parent", and "It is my child" (but for
some reason not "It is my egg"). These senses are definetely there.
So there are in principle more ways for a C1 norn to see another norn
than just a general category. I say in principle because I checked the
senses with another tool that displays every used lobe and fuction and
I have never seen the specific C1 senses used, even when a norn met a
sibling/child/parent. Maybe the senses arenæ„’ used (again for reasons
of simplification already in C1?) or they are used extremely rarely,
just like the angry face which is also there in the image files.
> Sooner or later she'll descend to your plain of existence and unleash
> her terribly fury upon you. Make sure to take a few pictures when that
> happens, someone might shell out some bucks for those, but even if not
> they will make a nice souvenir to hang above your ashes.
Thanks a lot, now I惴 scared ;-).
Chris
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>
>> > I must admit that I sometimes like to play with immortal norns (the
>> > mutation with always 97 - 99% lifeforce and glucose/glycogen always
>> > kept on maximum level by magic forces, thus no hunger and nothing in
>> > Albia that could harm them in any serious way.)
>>
>> They were walking dead, rather than alive. Perhaps the only real undead
>> in the history of this planet...
>
> Nope, the 0% lifeforce norns are the walking dead (that is, if they
> are more active than a norn with 0% should be.) The 99% were more or
> less a simple abomination unto the Lord of true AL. Or maybe the real
> abomination starts with 100% and above and everything slightly below
> is just some sort of gray area ;-).
Life involves death, without the need to feed they lack one of the main
drives, and I faintly recall the highlander gene having some other
side-effects as well.
>> > of course the danger of an overcrowded world (or harddisk), but I
>> > play very selective and usually just keep 10 - 15 norns.
>>
>> What about the others? Euthanasia?
>
> File deletion. Or adding them to a big zip file for later use.
That's pretty much the same, isn't it?
>> IIRC in C3 the engine allowed for Norns to distinguish between
>> individuals for the first time, but even then the way a Norn 'sees' it's
>> world won't allow for any such thing.
>
> In a small way they can make distinctions already in C1. If you check
> the brain lobes with a monitoring tool, there is a lobe called General
> Senses Lobe. There are some general senses that say "It is a creature",
> "It is a norn", "It is opposite sex", but also more specific ones like
> "It is my sibling", "It is my parent", and "It is my child" (but for
> some reason not "It is my egg"). These senses are definetely there.
Gender and species, yes, but I'm fairly sure the Norns couldn't
distinguish between different individuals. Even if those senses exists
in name, they have not been used. Unless I'm completely mistaken, of
course.
> So there are in principle more ways for a C1 norn to see another norn
> than just a general category. I say in principle because I checked the
> senses with another tool that displays every used lobe and fuction and
> I have never seen the specific C1 senses used, even when a norn met a
> sibling/child/parent. Maybe the senses aren´t used (again for reasons
> of simplification already in C1?) or they are used extremely rarely,
> just like the angry face which is also there in the image files.
See?
>> Sooner or later she'll descend to your plain of existence and unleash
>> her terribly fury upon you. Make sure to take a few pictures when that
>> happens, someone might shell out some bucks for those, but even if not
>> they will make a nice souvenir to hang above your ashes.
>
> Thanks a lot, now I´m scared ;-).
Took you long enough.
Chris Pfeiler
> Life involves death, without the need to feed they lack one of the main
> drives, and I faintly recall the highlander gene having some other
> side-effects as well.
100% is the highlander gene, 97 - 99% is called the zeus gene, I think.
I haven´t seen any other negative side-effects yet, all other drives
are quite normal. They still enjoy to eat and often show more interest
in food than other (hungry) norns. I just had one immortal female that
plundered the entire lemon bush and ate all of them within seconds.
If a norn does something repeatedly and with such persistence, he must
experience some reward for it. So I guess even if there is no hunger
drive to decrease, the instinct in their sleep or dream "phase" still
tells them that eating is good and will be rewarded. It´s of course a
problem if they snatch away food from mortal norns.
A general problem is the lack of food in the original Albia. Most of
the food is in one place or cannot be replaced when eaten (cheese for
example). So even if a mortal norn is smart enough to look for food,
it happens often that he can´t find any in certain areas. So his drive
goes to maximum and he is distracted from exploring and other tasks.
A norn can get paralysed by hunger and simply crouch over and complain
time and again about his need for food. The player has to intervene.
An immortal one can be used for observations that concern different
areas of behaviour, e.g. how an individual norn can seperate itself
from a flock or mass conglomeration to go exploring on its own. It´s
a major flaw in C1 that the social drive is too high, which leads to
exhausted, overcrowded, and hungry masses of norns huddled together.
One of my interests was always in norns that were able to simply walk
away from such a group ("stop norn" and "drop norn" are the words a
norn should say by itself after a while and leave.) They rarely do,
but it happens and immortal ones are IMO good for such observations.
> >> What about the others? Euthanasia?
> >
> > File deletion. Or adding them to a big zip file for later use.
>
> That's pretty much the same, isn't it?
File deletion is euthanasia without death moan. The zip file is more
like cryogenics.
> Gender and species, yes, but I'm fairly sure the Norns couldn't
> distinguish between different individuals. Even if those senses exists
> in name, they have not been used. Unless I'm completely mistaken, of
> course.
The senses exist in name, you can check it out with these tools,
especially with the first one:
http://www.double.co.nz/creatures/brainutilities.htm
There are other senses as well and even some labelled "spare".
> > sibling/child/parent. Maybe the senses aren´t used (again for reasons
> > of simplification already in C1?) or they are used extremely rarely,
> > just like the angry face which is also there in the image files.
>
> See?
But then it just shows that already in C1 important qualities of the
engine weren´t used, possibly to make the game simpler. The C1 norns
are thus operating (or "living") below their capacities.
I think I know why the senses are unused: they are obviously there to
make a norn recognize its kin, probably to prevent inbreeding (which
in itself is no big problem because of the haploid genome.) I guess
that´s the problem: When you have only a small population of 8 - 11
norns, the norns can´t be too picky about their partners and should
make no difference between relatives and other norns.
Still, I think the specific senses would have been a good addition,
even if it would make breeding more complicated. Now I wonder if the
senses could be activated. It could provide a more complex social
behaviour, e.g. a "bond" between parents and children for example.
There are other things unused in the engine as well if you look more
closely. Several slots and functions in the brain are labelled spare
and seem to have no purpose. Another example are IMO the terms for
emotions which the C1 norns can learn: They use maybe half of these
words (e.g. bored, angry etc.), but others are rarely or never used,
e.g. lonely or amorous, the first is displayed with the line "<name>
get yes", the latter with the notorious empty speech bubble. Once
again they could do better in principle.
> > Thanks a lot, now I´m scared ;-).
>
> Took you long enough.
Well, not that scared. But I will be away for a week or so. Don´t
think I have already left for good. I´ll be back :-).
Chris
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>
>> >> What about the others? Euthanasia?
>> >
>> > File deletion. Or adding them to a big zip file for later use.
>>
>> That's pretty much the same, isn't it?
>
> File deletion is euthanasia without death moan. The zip file is more
> like cryogenics.
With the cryo tubes malfunctioning now and again... Been there, done
that. It's easier on the consciousness than putting them to rest on your
own... Playing with life is just such a giant moral dilemma.
>> Gender and species, yes, but I'm fairly sure the Norns couldn't
>> distinguish between different individuals. Even if those senses exists
>> in name, they have not been used. Unless I'm completely mistaken, of
>> course.
>
> The senses exist in name, you can check it out with these tools,
> especially with the first one:
>
> http://www.double.co.nz/creatures/brainutilities.htm
>
> There are other senses as well and even some labelled "spare".
It's been some time since I've been running these... Or C1 for that
matter.
>> > sibling/child/parent. Maybe the senses aren´t used (again for reasons
>> > of simplification already in C1?) or they are used extremely rarely,
>> > just like the angry face which is also there in the image files.
>>
>> See?
>
> But then it just shows that already in C1 important qualities of the
> engine weren´t used, possibly to make the game simpler. The C1 norns
> are thus operating (or "living") below their capacities.
I don't think the engine actually *does* implement them, only the names
exist. There simply is no way to way to distinguish between different
objects in the same group.
> I think I know why the senses are unused: they are obviously there to
> make a norn recognize its kin, probably to prevent inbreeding (which
> in itself is no big problem because of the haploid genome.) I guess
Inbreeding is even worse with a haploid genome, you know...
> that´s the problem: When you have only a small population of 8 - 11
> norns, the norns can´t be too picky about their partners and should
> make no difference between relatives and other norns.
>
> Still, I think the specific senses would have been a good addition,
> even if it would make breeding more complicated. Now I wonder if the
> senses could be activated. It could provide a more complex social
> behaviour, e.g. a "bond" between parents and children for example.
As I said above, I don't think so.
> There are other things unused in the engine as well if you look more
> closely. Several slots and functions in the brain are labelled spare
> and seem to have no purpose. Another example are IMO the terms for
> emotions which the C1 norns can learn: They use maybe half of these
> words (e.g. bored, angry etc.), but others are rarely or never used,
> e.g. lonely or amorous, the first is displayed with the line "<name>
> get yes", the latter with the notorious empty speech bubble. Once
> again they could do better in principle.
>
>> > Thanks a lot, now I´m scared ;-).
>>
>> Took you long enough.
>
> Well, not that scared. But I will be away for a week or so. Don´t
> think I have already left for good. I´ll be back :-).
Seems we have to work on that, then...
emmel
> It´s all on my website:
>
> http://misfits.drts.org/
Could not locate remote server.
Neo
> Thus Chris Pfeiler spoke:
<snip>
>> Whether or not the C2 norns could ever have become conscious, had they
>> been made properly, I don't know. Some people still believe that
>> animals aren't conscious, so it is apparent that the very word has
>> problems of definition.
>
> The mirror test is quite accepted as an indicator of consciousness
> (actually self-awareness, but the one isn't possible with the other),
> and quite a few people pass that. Octopuses did recently, after the
> involved cameras/screen became fast enough; they perceive 25
> pictures/second as stills.
You can't really take a risk when hurting potential artificial life. You
have to proof something is _NOT_ sentient before you go torture it or
anything.
A hunch is not enough. You must _PROOF_ it.
Take human life. Are we really sentient? If you look at the chemical
building blocks you would not expect us to be, yet we like to think we
are.
Are other people programmed to avoid torture to preserve themselves to
produce offspring in the future? Do they only fake pain?
Does pain even exist or is it a non-sentient instinct or reflex?
Are we alive or is our will to live an evolutionary treat?
We only have a lifetime to find out :-)
Neo
--
Everything that has a beginning has an end.
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Chris Pfeiler spoke:
><snip>
>>> Whether or not the C2 norns could ever have become conscious, had they
>>> been made properly, I don't know. Some people still believe that
>>> animals aren't conscious, so it is apparent that the very word has
>>> problems of definition.
>>
>> The mirror test is quite accepted as an indicator of consciousness
>> (actually self-awareness, but the one isn't possible with the other),
>> and quite a few people pass that. Octopuses did recently, after the
>> involved cameras/screen became fast enough; they perceive 25
>> pictures/second as stills.
>
> You can't really take a risk when hurting potential artificial life. You
> have to proof something is _NOT_ sentient before you go torture it or
> anything.
>
> A hunch is not enough. You must _PROOF_ it.
Absence of artificial life cannot be conclusively proven.
> Take human life. Are we really sentient? If you look at the chemical
Cogito ergo sum.
> building blocks you would not expect us to be, yet we like to think we
> are.
>
> Are other people programmed to avoid torture to preserve themselves to
> produce offspring in the future? Do they only fake pain?
>
> Does pain even exist or is it a non-sentient instinct or reflex?
> Are we alive or is our will to live an evolutionary treat?
>
> We only have a lifetime to find out :-)
Complex behaviour emerges from simple rules. Sentience is merely a
question of definition.
Chris Pfeiler
> Thus Chris Pfeiler spoke:
>
> > It´s all on my website:
> >
> > http://misfits.drts.org/
>
> Could not locate remote server.
Really? That shouldn´t be. Please try again. I just uploaded a new
episode idea and everything worked fine.
Chris
Chris Pfeiler
> With the cryo tubes malfunctioning now and again... Been there, done
> that. It's easier on the consciousness than putting them to rest on your
> own... Playing with life is just such a giant moral dilemma.
Well, you can export a norn and make him simply vanish from the world
or you can kill him with a mouseclick (if cheating) and make him fall
to the ground with a death moan. Even if you then delete the exp file,
the first solution still seems somehow more humane.
But to provoke such thoughts and moral dilemma was IMO one of the ideas
of Steve Grand. He said similar things a couple of times, even when he
talked in a semi-positive way about the deeds of norn-torturers (which
he considered IMO as mere examples of diversity in norn treatment and
interesting for the strong reactions they caused among the community,
which tried to defend the "life" and "dignity" of their norns.)
Such questions were IMO buried under too much "glitz" in later versions,
but maybe that´s just my impression.
> I don't think the engine actually *does* implement them, only the names
> exist. There simply is no way to way to distinguish between different
> objects in the same group.
There was some talk about a breed called "Family Norns" in agc posts
from 1998. It was said that these norns were able to recognize close
relatives. I haven´t seen any proof, so maybe it was just a hoax.
But the senses are still there, at least by name. And I don´t think
they are made impossible by the categories. Keep in mind that norns
*can* distinguish between male and female, even if "norn" is just
one object in the same group for them. The senses and the general
sense lobe provide the additional information.
Chris
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>
>> With the cryo tubes malfunctioning now and again... Been there, done
>> that. It's easier on the consciousness than putting them to rest on your
>> own... Playing with life is just such a giant moral dilemma.
>
> Well, you can export a norn and make him simply vanish from the world
> or you can kill him with a mouseclick (if cheating) and make him fall
> to the ground with a death moan. Even if you then delete the exp file,
> the first solution still seems somehow more humane.
Using dead, kill or deleting the file amount to the same. Messes the
history up in C3/DS, though.
> But to provoke such thoughts and moral dilemma was IMO one of the ideas
> of Steve Grand. He said similar things a couple of times, even when he
> talked in a semi-positive way about the deeds of norn-torturers (which
> he considered IMO as mere examples of diversity in norn treatment and
> interesting for the strong reactions they caused among the community,
> which tried to defend the "life" and "dignity" of their norns.)
>
> Such questions were IMO buried under too much "glitz" in later versions,
> but maybe that´s just my impression.
I remember him saying that he liked AntiNorn for making people think
about that kind of thing, but he couldn't say so as long as he was still
working with CL. Creatures: Life and how to make it. (Can't be bothered
looking the exact wording up, although the book is only two metres from
ATM, I think.)
>> I don't think the engine actually *does* implement them, only the names
>> exist. There simply is no way to way to distinguish between different
>> objects in the same group.
>
> There was some talk about a breed called "Family Norns" in agc posts
> from 1998. It was said that these norns were able to recognize close
> relatives. I haven´t seen any proof, so maybe it was just a hoax.
I only say 'Naven'.
> But the senses are still there, at least by name. And I don´t think
> they are made impossible by the categories. Keep in mind that norns
> *can* distinguish between male and female, even if "norn" is just
> one object in the same group for them. The senses and the general
> sense lobe provide the additional information.
Actually, male and female use different SPCS. And Norns can't
distinguish between genders, just watch them; the mating scripts only
come into play when opposite genders are involved, though.
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>
>> Thus Chris Pfeiler spoke:
>>
>> > It´s all on my website:
>> >
>> > http://misfits.drts.org/
>>
>> Could not locate remote server.
>
> Really? That shouldn´t be. Please try again. I just uploaded a new
> episode idea and everything worked fine.
Works now, don't like the layout, may have a look later.
Chris Pfeiler
> I remember him saying that he liked AntiNorn for making people think
> about that kind of thing, but he couldn't say so as long as he was still
> working with CL. Creatures: Life and how to make it. (Can't be bothered
> looking the exact wording up, although the book is only two metres from
> ATM, I think.)
I think the exact quote can be found in his entry on the creatures wiki.
> > There was some talk about a breed called "Family Norns" in agc posts
> > from 1998. It was said that these norns were able to recognize close
> > relatives. I havenç¹”t seen any proof, so maybe it was just a hoax.
>
> I only say 'Naven'.
Yep, letæ„€ not forget the Naven while talking about the possibility
of super-enhanced C1 breeds ;-).
> Actually, male and female use different SPCS. And Norns can't
> distinguish between genders, just watch them; the mating scripts only
> come into play when opposite genders are involved, though.
No, I donæ„’ think thatæ„€ entirely correct. As far as I have seen, the
general senses to distinguish between genders work.
The neccessary functions are labelled:
It is a creature
It is a norn
It is approaching/retreating
It is opposite sex
The latter is already used when a norn sees a norn of different gender
from a distance, I think I saw it even used when a norn just heard the
voice of a norn of different gender.
Canæ„’ check it at the moment though, I have no Windows 95 installed,
which is neccesary for the brain monitoring tool.
Chris
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>
>> I remember him saying that he liked AntiNorn for making people think
>> about that kind of thing, but he couldn't say so as long as he was still
>> working with CL. Creatures: Life and how to make it. (Can't be bothered
>> looking the exact wording up, although the book is only two metres from
>> ATM, I think.)
>
> I think the exact quote can be found in his entry on the creatures wiki.
Maybe. It's definitely in the book, though.
>> Actually, male and female use different SPCS. And Norns can't
>> distinguish between genders, just watch them; the mating scripts only
>> come into play when opposite genders are involved, though.
>
> No, I don´t think that´s entirely correct. As far as I have seen, the
> general senses to distinguish between genders work.
>
> The neccessary functions are labelled:
>
> It is a creature
> It is a norn
> It is approaching/retreating
> It is opposite sex
>
> The latter is already used when a norn sees a norn of different gender
> from a distance, I think I saw it even used when a norn just heard the
> voice of a norn of different gender.
Odd... Anyway, I think I remember heavy kissing not being particularly
gender biased. Norns definitely don't have a separate 'mate' actions,
though, everything comes down to push and pull.
> Can´t check it at the moment though, I have no Windows 95 installed,
> which is neccesary for the brain monitoring tool.
Ah, yes...
Data
"Neo" <wh...@thematrix.is> wrote in message
news:49908e87$0$197$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Chris Pfeiler spoke:
> <snip>
>>> Whether or not the C2 norns could ever have become conscious, had they
>>> been made properly, I don't know. Some people still believe that
>>> animals aren't conscious, so it is apparent that the very word has
>>> problems of definition.
>>
>> The mirror test is quite accepted as an indicator of consciousness
>> (actually self-awareness, but the one isn't possible with the other),
>> and quite a few people pass that. Octopuses did recently, after the
>> involved cameras/screen became fast enough; they perceive 25
>> pictures/second as stills.
>
> You can't really take a risk when hurting potential artificial life. You
> have to proof something is _NOT_ sentient before you go torture it or
> anything.
>
> A hunch is not enough. You must _PROOF_ it.
>
> Take human life. Are we really sentient? If you look at the chemical
> building blocks you would not expect us to be, yet we like to think we
> are.
>
> Are other people programmed to avoid torture to preserve themselves to
> produce offspring in the future? Do they only fake pain?
>
> Does pain even exist or is it a non-sentient instinct or reflex?
> Are we alive or is our will to live an evolutionary treat?
>
> We only have a lifetime to find out :-)
> Neo
> --
> Everything that has a beginning has an end.
Raises an interesting question with IBM's virtual human mind project,
doesn't it? If it behaves like a human brain, is it ethical to inflict
neurological disorders on it in order to come up with new treatments for the
same disorders in biological human brains?
Being a construct, you can back up the mental state. Not sure I'd like that
sort of thing done to me - backup my mind, do something to me, wipe my brain
& restore the backup from before it happened. Could do all sorts of nasty
stuff & never remember.
Neo
> "Neo" <wh...@thematrix.is> wrote in message
> news:49908e87$0$197$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Chris Pfeiler spoke:
>> <snip>
>>>> Whether or not the C2 norns could ever have become conscious, had they
>>>> been made properly, I don't know. Some people still believe that
>>>> animals aren't conscious, so it is apparent that the very word has
>>>> problems of definition.
>>> The mirror test is quite accepted as an indicator of consciousness
>>> (actually self-awareness, but the one isn't possible with the other),
>>> and quite a few people pass that. Octopuses did recently, after the
>>> involved cameras/screen became fast enough; they perceive 25
>>> pictures/second as stills.
>> You can't really take a risk when hurting potential artificial life. You
>> have to proof something is _NOT_ sentient before you go torture it or
>> anything.
>>
>> A hunch is not enough. You must _PROOF_ it.
>>
> "Prove"
Thanks.
>> Take human life. Are we really sentient? If you look at the chemical
>> building blocks you would not expect us to be, yet we like to think we
>> are.
>>
>> Are other people programmed to avoid torture to preserve themselves to
>> produce offspring in the future? Do they only fake pain?
>>
>> Does pain even exist or is it a non-sentient instinct or reflex?
>> Are we alive or is our will to live an evolutionary treat?
>>
>> We only have a lifetime to find out :-)
>> Neo
>> --
>> Everything that has a beginning has an end.
>
> Raises an interesting question with IBM's virtual human mind project,
> doesn't it? If it behaves like a human brain, is it ethical to inflict
> neurological disorders on it in order to come up with new treatments for the
> same disorders in biological human brains?
> Being a construct, you can back up the mental state. Not sure I'd like that
> sort of thing done to me - backup my mind, do something to me, wipe my brain
> & restore the backup from before it happened. Could do all sorts of nasty
> stuff & never remember.
"You would be programmed not to mind your brains being sliced up" from
the Adam Douglas trilogy comes to mind :-)
emmel
> Data wrote:
>> "Neo" <wh...@thematrix.is> wrote in message
>>> A hunch is not enough. You must _PROOF_ it.
>>>
>> "Prove"
>
> Thanks.
I'm past doing that particular mistake (I hope), but I definitely didn't
see that. Well, maybe one day...
>> Raises an interesting question with IBM's virtual human mind project,
>> doesn't it? If it behaves like a human brain, is it ethical to inflict
>> neurological disorders on it in order to come up with new treatments for the
>> same disorders in biological human brains?
>> Being a construct, you can back up the mental state. Not sure I'd like that
>> sort of thing done to me - backup my mind, do something to me, wipe my brain
>> & restore the backup from before it happened. Could do all sorts of nasty
>> stuff & never remember.
>
> "You would be programmed not to mind your brains being sliced up" from
> the Adam Douglas trilogy comes to mind :-)
Where did he said that? I can't say I recognise it.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> Data wrote:
>>> "Neo" <wh...@thematrix.is> wrote in message
>
>>>> A hunch is not enough. You must _PROOF_ it.
>>>>
>>> "Prove"
>> Thanks.
>
> I'm past doing that particular mistake (I hope), but I definitely didn't
> see that. Well, maybe one day...
>
>>> Raises an interesting question with IBM's virtual human mind project,
>>> doesn't it? If it behaves like a human brain, is it ethical to inflict
>>> neurological disorders on it in order to come up with new treatments for the
>>> same disorders in biological human brains?
>>> Being a construct, you can back up the mental state. Not sure I'd like that
>>> sort of thing done to me - backup my mind, do something to me, wipe my brain
>>> & restore the backup from before it happened. Could do all sorts of nasty
>>> stuff & never remember.
>> "You would be programmed not to mind your brains being sliced up" from
>> the Adam Douglas trilogy comes to mind :-)
>
> Where did he said that? I can't say I recognise it.
Think of the mice and what they want to replace Arthur's brain with!
I think that is one of the greatest parts of the trilogy! Come to think
of it, you have read THHGTTG and you are /still/ motivated to write
stories. That should tell you something about yourself!
After THHGTTG I haven't read many books. There is not a need anymore
because THHGTTG explains it all...
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> "You would be programmed not to mind your brains being sliced up" from
>>> the Adam Douglas trilogy comes to mind :-)
>>
>> Where did he said that? I can't say I recognise it.
>
> Think of the mice and what they want to replace Arthur's brain with!
Lemme check... Got it.
"I thought you said you could just read his brain
electronically," protested Ford.
"Oh yes," said Frankie, "but we'd have to get it out first. It's
got to be prepared."
"Treated," said Benji.
"Diced."
"Thank you," shouted Arthur, tipping up his chair and backing
away from the table in horror.
"It could always be replaced," said Benji reasonably, "if you
think it's important."
"Yes, an electronic brain," said Frankie, "a simple one
would suffice."
"A simple one!" wailed Arthur.
"Yeah," said Zaphod with a sudden evil grin, "you'd just have
to program it to say What? and I don't understand and Where's the
tea? - who'd know the difference?"
"What?" cried Arthur, backing away still further.
"See what I mean?" said Zaphod and howled with pain because
of something that Trillian did at that moment.
"I'd notice the difference," said Arthur.
"No you wouldn't," said Frankie mouse, "you'd be programmed not
to."
> I think that is one of the greatest parts of the trilogy! Come to think
> of it, you have read THHGTTG and you are /still/ motivated to write
> stories. That should tell you something about yourself!
You know, that particular scene never really stuck to my memory. It's
definitely not one I'd count among my greatest HHGG moments.
> After THHGTTG I haven't read many books. There is not a need anymore
> because THHGTTG explains it all...
I don't write to explain. And anyway, it doesn't explain everything.
Neo
That is the one!
>> I think that is one of the greatest parts of the trilogy! Come to think
>> of it, you have read THHGTTG and you are /still/ motivated to write
>> stories. That should tell you something about yourself!
>
> You know, that particular scene never really stuck to my memory. It's
> definitely not one I'd count among my greatest HHGG moments.
Why not?
>> After THHGTTG I haven't read many books. There is not a need anymore
>> because THHGTTG explains it all...
>
> I don't write to explain. And anyway, it doesn't explain everything.
Maybe you don't understand the question!
emmel
Obviously.
>>> I think that is one of the greatest parts of the trilogy! Come to think
>>> of it, you have read THHGTTG and you are /still/ motivated to write
>>> stories. That should tell you something about yourself!
>>
>> You know, that particular scene never really stuck to my memory. It's
>> definitely not one I'd count among my greatest HHGG moments.
>
> Why not?
Hard to say, but it was one of the 'also ran' moments instead of the
pivotal (Does that word actually make sense here? It feels right to
me...) ones. One of my absolute favourites is the shoe event horizon in
the radio version.
>>> After THHGTTG I haven't read many books. There is not a need anymore
>>> because THHGTTG explains it all...
>>
>> I don't write to explain. And anyway, it doesn't explain everything.
>
> Maybe you don't understand the question!
There is a theory that the answer and the question cannot be known at
the same time. Let's stick to the frogs.
Neo
I never listened to the radio version.
>>>> After THHGTTG I haven't read many books. There is not a need anymore
>>>> because THHGTTG explains it all...
>>> I don't write to explain. And anyway, it doesn't explain everything.
>> Maybe you don't understand the question!
>
> There is a theory that the answer and the question cannot be known at
> the same time. Let's stick to the frogs.
They can be known at the same time, at the cost of the universe turning
into something even more incomprehensible!
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>> Hard to say, but it was one of the 'also ran' moments instead of the
>> pivotal (Does that word actually make sense here? It feels right to
>> me...) ones. One of my absolute favourites is the shoe event horizon in
>> the radio version.
>
> I never listened to the radio version.
It's even better than the books, IMHO.
>> There is a theory that the answer and the question cannot be known at
>> the same time. Let's stick to the frogs.
>
> They can be known at the same time, at the cost of the universe turning
> into something even more incomprehensible!
Possibly...
"It's ... well, it's a long story," he said, "but the Question I
would like to know is the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and
Everything. All we know is that the Answer is Forty-Two, which is a
little aggravating."
Prak nodded again.
"Forty-Two," he said. "Yes, that's right."
He paused. Shadows of thought and memory crossed his face like the
shadows of clouds crossing the land.
"I'm afraid," he said at last, "that the Question and the Answer
are mutually exclusive. Knowledge of one logically precludes
knowledge of the other. It is impossible that both can ever be known
about the same universe."
He paused again. Disappointment crept into Arthur's face and
snuggled down into its accustomed place.
"Except," said Prak, struggling to sort a thought out, "if it
happened, it seems that the Question and the Answer would just cancel
each other out and take the Universe with them, which would then be
replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. It is possible
that this has already happened," he added with a weak smile, "but
there is a certain amount of Uncertainty about it."
Having a digital, grepable version is really neat. <g>
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>> Hard to say, but it was one of the 'also ran' moments instead of the
>>> pivotal (Does that word actually make sense here? It feels right to
>>> me...) ones. One of my absolute favourites is the shoe event horizon in
>>> the radio version.
>> I never listened to the radio version.
>
> It's even better than the books, IMHO.
Have you seen the tv series?
Have you seen the movie?
The movie is good IMHO. Though different from the book. I would say it
adds to the book.
I have that digital version and I got it from you :-) [I think]. I have
several text editors to view and search it with!
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> emmel wrote:
>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>
>>>> Hard to say, but it was one of the 'also ran' moments instead of the
>>>> pivotal (Does that word actually make sense here? It feels right to
>>>> me...) ones. One of my absolute favourites is the shoe event horizon in
>>>> the radio version.
>>> I never listened to the radio version.
>>
>> It's even better than the books, IMHO.
>
> Have you seen the tv series?
Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
> Have you seen the movie?
Yes...
> The movie is good IMHO. Though different from the book. I would say it
> adds to the book.
Whatever you say. I just can't forgive them for cutting out all the
punchlines. What is the point of taking the original dialogue if you
don't deliver those?
>>>> There is a theory that the answer and the question cannot be known at
>>>> the same time. Let's stick to the frogs.
>>> They can be known at the same time, at the cost of the universe turning
>>> into something even more incomprehensible!
>>
>> Possibly...
<snip>
>> Having a digital, grepable version is really neat. <g>
>
> I have that digital version and I got it from you :-) [I think].
Might be, but I can't really say I remember. Without lying, that is.
> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hard to say, but it was one of the 'also ran' moments instead of the
>>>>> pivotal (Does that word actually make sense here? It feels right to
>>>>> me...) ones. One of my absolute favourites is the shoe event horizon in
>>>>> the radio version.
>>>> I never listened to the radio version.
>>> It's even better than the books, IMHO.
>> Have you seen the tv series?
>
> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
making it!
>> Have you seen the movie?
>
> Yes...
>
>> The movie is good IMHO. Though different from the book. I would say it
>> adds to the book.
>
> Whatever you say. I just can't forgive them for cutting out all the
> punchlines. What is the point of taking the original dialogue if you
> don't deliver those?
Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>>>> There is a theory that the answer and the question cannot be known at
>>>>> the same time. Let's stick to the frogs.
>>>> They can be known at the same time, at the cost of the universe turning
>>>> into something even more incomprehensible!
>>> Possibly...
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Having a digital, grepable version is really neat. <g>
>> I have that digital version and I got it from you :-) [I think].
>
> Might be, but I can't really say I remember. Without lying, that is.
>
>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>
> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>>>>> Hard to say, but it was one of the 'also ran' moments instead of the
>>>>>> pivotal (Does that word actually make sense here? It feels right to
>>>>>> me...) ones. One of my absolute favourites is the shoe event horizon in
>>>>>> the radio version.
>>>>> I never listened to the radio version.
>>>> It's even better than the books, IMHO.
>>> Have you seen the tv series?
>>
>> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
>
> It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
> making it!
Doesn't mean it is good, though...
>>> Have you seen the movie?
>>
>> Yes...
>>
>>> The movie is good IMHO. Though different from the book. I would say it
>>> adds to the book.
>>
>> Whatever you say. I just can't forgive them for cutting out all the
>> punchlines. What is the point of taking the original dialogue if you
>> don't deliver those?
>
> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>>
>> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
>
> Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
> replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
<eg>
Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>>>>> Hard to say, but it was one of the 'also ran' moments instead of the
>>>>>>> pivotal (Does that word actually make sense here? It feels right to
>>>>>>> me...) ones. One of my absolute favourites is the shoe event horizon in
>>>>>>> the radio version.
>>>>>> I never listened to the radio version.
>>>>> It's even better than the books, IMHO.
>>>> Have you seen the tv series?
>>> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
>> It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
>> making it!
>
> Doesn't mean it is good, though...
I like it though.
>>>> Have you seen the movie?
>>> Yes...
>>>
>>>> The movie is good IMHO. Though different from the book. I would say it
>>>> adds to the book.
>>> Whatever you say. I just can't forgive them for cutting out all the
>>> punchlines. What is the point of taking the original dialogue if you
>>> don't deliver those?
>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>
> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
five books.
>>>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>>> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
>> Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
>> replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
>
> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
> <eg>
> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
I am more an emacs person ;-)
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>>>> Have you seen the tv series?
>>>> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
>>> It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
>>> making it!
>>
>> Doesn't mean it is good, though...
>
> I like it though.
I didn't say you shouldn't.
>>>>> The movie is good IMHO. Though different from the book. I would say it
>>>>> adds to the book.
>>>> Whatever you say. I just can't forgive them for cutting out all the
>>>> punchlines. What is the point of taking the original dialogue if you
>>>> don't deliver those?
>>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>
>> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
>> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>
> I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
> of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
> five books.
They cut the freaking jokes out, dammit. The jokes that the whole
conversation is leading to. Pretty much all of DNA's word centric jokes
were lost.
>>>>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>>>> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
>>> Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
>>> replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
>>
>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>> <eg>
>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>
> I am more an emacs person ;-)
::draws light sabre::
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>>>> Have you seen the tv series?
>>>>> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
>>>> It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
>>>> making it!
>>> Doesn't mean it is good, though...
>> I like it though.
>
> I didn't say you shouldn't.
At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>>>> The movie is good IMHO. Though different from the book. I would say it
>>>>>> adds to the book.
>>>>> Whatever you say. I just can't forgive them for cutting out all the
>>>>> punchlines. What is the point of taking the original dialogue if you
>>>>> don't deliver those?
>>>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
>>> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>> I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
>> of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
>> five books.
>
> They cut the freaking jokes out, dammit. The jokes that the whole
> conversation is leading to. Pretty much all of DNA's word centric jokes
> were lost.
They kept the slartibartfast joke in it. And added new ones.
>>>>>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>>>>> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
>>>> Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
>>>> replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
>>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>>> <eg>
>>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>> I am more an emacs person ;-)
>
> ::draws light sabre::
::throws anti-photon net::
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> emmel wrote:
>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you seen the tv series?
>>>>>> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
>>>>> It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
>>>>> making it!
>>>> Doesn't mean it is good, though...
>>> I like it though.
>>
>> I didn't say you shouldn't.
>
> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>>>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>>> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
>>>> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>>> I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
>>> of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
>>> five books.
>>
>> They cut the freaking jokes out, dammit. The jokes that the whole
>> conversation is leading to. Pretty much all of DNA's word centric jokes
>> were lost.
>
> They kept the slartibartfast joke in it. And added new ones.
Nothing wrong about that, but you shouldn't keep things in and mutilate
it.
>>>>>>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>>>>>> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
>>>>> Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
>>>>> replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
>>>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>>>> <eg>
>>>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>>> I am more an emacs person ;-)
>>
>> ::draws light sabre::
>
>::throws anti-photon net::
OK, I just looked it up to make sure: There is no such thing as an
anti-photon. I should really kill you for this.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you seen the tv series?
>>>>>>> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
>>>>>> It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
>>>>>> making it!
>>>>> Doesn't mean it is good, though...
>>>> I like it though.
>>> I didn't say you shouldn't.
>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>
> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
<d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>>>>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>>>> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
>>>>> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>>>> I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
>>>> of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
>>>> five books.
>>> They cut the freaking jokes out, dammit. The jokes that the whole
>>> conversation is leading to. Pretty much all of DNA's word centric jokes
>>> were lost.
>> They kept the slartibartfast joke in it. And added new ones.
>
> Nothing wrong about that, but you shouldn't keep things in and mutilate
> it.
I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
>>>>>>>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>>>>>>> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
>>>>>> Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
>>>>>> replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
>>>>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>>>>> <eg>
>>>>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>>>> I am more an emacs person ;-)
>>> ::draws light sabre::
>> ::throws anti-photon net::
>
> OK, I just looked it up to make sure: There is no such thing as an
> anti-photon. I should really kill you for this.
It is just a tightly woven piece of dark cloth. Your light sabre
photons can't penetrate it!
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> emmel wrote:
>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>
>>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have you seen the tv series?
>>>>>>>> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
>>>>>>> It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
>>>>>>> making it!
>>>>>> Doesn't mean it is good, though...
>>>>> I like it though.
>>>> I didn't say you shouldn't.
>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>
>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>
><d&rlhuhw&gu>
I think that was actually 'agu'...
>>>>>>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>>>>> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
>>>>>> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>>>>> I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
>>>>> of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
>>>>> five books.
>>>> They cut the freaking jokes out, dammit. The jokes that the whole
>>>> conversation is leading to. Pretty much all of DNA's word centric jokes
>>>> were lost.
>>> They kept the slartibartfast joke in it. And added new ones.
>>
>> Nothing wrong about that, but you shouldn't keep things in and mutilate
>> it.
>
> I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
Yeah, I faintly remember there being something like that. Was more fun
in the radio series, though...
>>>>>>>>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>>>>>>>> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
>>>>>>> Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
>>>>>>> replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
>>>>>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>>>>>> <eg>
>>>>>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>>>>> I am more an emacs person ;-)
>>>> ::draws light sabre::
>>> ::throws anti-photon net::
>>
>> OK, I just looked it up to make sure: There is no such thing as an
>> anti-photon. I should really kill you for this.
>
> It is just a tightly woven piece of dark cloth. Your light sabre
> photons can't penetrate it!
Those freaking things melt down blast doors. No dark cloth is going to
help you there. Besides, you won't find a fabric black to all
wavelengths.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>
>>>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you seen the tv series?
>>>>>>>>> Nope. I know that DNA was pretty embarrassed about it, though.
>>>>>>>> It looked a bit low budget. You you could see the actors having fun
>>>>>>>> making it!
>>>>>>> Doesn't mean it is good, though...
>>>>>> I like it though.
>>>>> I didn't say you shouldn't.
>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>
> I think that was actually 'agu'...
You invented it.
>>>>>>>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>>>>>> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
>>>>>>> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>>>>>> I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
>>>>>> of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
>>>>>> five books.
>>>>> They cut the freaking jokes out, dammit. The jokes that the whole
>>>>> conversation is leading to. Pretty much all of DNA's word centric jokes
>>>>> were lost.
>>>> They kept the slartibartfast joke in it. And added new ones.
>>> Nothing wrong about that, but you shouldn't keep things in and mutilate
>>> it.
>> I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
>
> Yeah, I faintly remember there being something like that. Was more fun
> in the radio series, though...
"You know what this world could do without? ... Me".
::Arthur Dent leaves earth with Trillian in his arms::
>>>>>>>>>> I have several text editors to view and search it with!
>>>>>>>>> Several? In my experience a single good one is enough.
>>>>>>>> Windows comes with Notepad and Wordpad. And then I have a freeware
>>>>>>>> replacement for Notepad (with syntax highlighting).
>>>>>>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>>>>>>> <eg>
>>>>>>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>>>>>> I am more an emacs person ;-)
>>>>> ::draws light sabre::
>>>> ::throws anti-photon net::
>>> OK, I just looked it up to make sure: There is no such thing as an
>>> anti-photon. I should really kill you for this.
>> It is just a tightly woven piece of dark cloth. Your light sabre
>> photons can't penetrate it!
>
> Those freaking things melt down blast doors. No dark cloth is going to
> help you there. Besides, you won't find a fabric black to all
> wavelengths.
So what wave length is your light sabre on? Is it a kind of laser with a
monolithic wave length?
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>
>> I think that was actually 'agu'...
>
> You invented it.
Yeah, I know, but I was pretty sure it was 'agu'. Fickle things, these
memories.
>>>>>>>>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>>>>>>> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
>>>>>>>> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>>>>>>> I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
>>>>>>> of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
>>>>>>> five books.
>>>>>> They cut the freaking jokes out, dammit. The jokes that the whole
>>>>>> conversation is leading to. Pretty much all of DNA's word centric jokes
>>>>>> were lost.
>>>>> They kept the slartibartfast joke in it. And added new ones.
>>>> Nothing wrong about that, but you shouldn't keep things in and mutilate
>>>> it.
>>> I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
>>
>> Yeah, I faintly remember there being something like that. Was more fun
>> in the radio series, though...
>
> "You know what this world could do without? ... Me".
>::Arthur Dent leaves earth with Trillian in his arms::
The radio dramatisation had a couple of different endings. Not written
by DNA because of obvious reasons (Hah, probably he's just dead for tax
reasons!), but I liked them. One was a scene in front of Arthur's house
with the bulldozers rolling in - and Arthur and Fenchurch both lying in
the way this time.
>>>>>>>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>>>>>>>> <eg>
>>>>>>>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>>>>>>> I am more an emacs person ;-)
>>>>>> ::draws light sabre::
>>>>> ::throws anti-photon net::
>>>> OK, I just looked it up to make sure: There is no such thing as an
>>>> anti-photon. I should really kill you for this.
>>> It is just a tightly woven piece of dark cloth. Your light sabre
>>> photons can't penetrate it!
>>
>> Those freaking things melt down blast doors. No dark cloth is going to
>> help you there. Besides, you won't find a fabric black to all
>> wavelengths.
>
> So what wave length is your light sabre on? Is it a kind of laser with a
> monolithic wave length?
I *assume* you mean monochromatic. Anyway, ignoring the impossibility to
contain light in such a way as required for a light sabre, I'd probably
go for several different wave lengths. Mostly short wavelengths, to get
more energy in, let's say one in the visible range, one ultraviolet,
soft x-ray, hard x-ray, gamma. No one material would be able to cancel
that, and the only thing that really helps against the more energetic
rays is distance, of course. But I'm ranting. Again.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>> I think that was actually 'agu'...
>> You invented it.
>
> Yeah, I know, but I was pretty sure it was 'agu'. Fickle things, these
> memories.
It could be. But a '&' would be more consistent.
>>>>>>>>>> Then the movie would have been several hours longer!
>>>>>>>>> I don't care. The missing punchlines were just painful. That's what you
>>>>>>>>> get when you know large portions of the text by heart, I guess.
>>>>>>>> I am sure they considered adding the punchlines and please the readers
>>>>>>>> of The Guide. Or try to make a not too much confusing story out of the
>>>>>>>> five books.
>>>>>>> They cut the freaking jokes out, dammit. The jokes that the whole
>>>>>>> conversation is leading to. Pretty much all of DNA's word centric jokes
>>>>>>> were lost.
>>>>>> They kept the slartibartfast joke in it. And added new ones.
>>>>> Nothing wrong about that, but you shouldn't keep things in and mutilate
>>>>> it.
>>>> I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
>>> Yeah, I faintly remember there being something like that. Was more fun
>>> in the radio series, though...
>> "You know what this world could do without? ... Me".
>> ::Arthur Dent leaves earth with Trillian in his arms::
>
> The radio dramatisation had a couple of different endings. Not written
> by DNA because of obvious reasons (Hah, probably he's just dead for tax
> reasons!), but I liked them. One was a scene in front of Arthur's house
> with the bulldozers rolling in - and Arthur and Fenchurch both lying in
> the way this time.
Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>>>>>>>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>>>>>>>>> <eg>
>>>>>>>>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>>>>>>>> I am more an emacs person ;-)
>>>>>>> ::draws light sabre::
>>>>>> ::throws anti-photon net::
>>>>> OK, I just looked it up to make sure: There is no such thing as an
>>>>> anti-photon. I should really kill you for this.
>>>> It is just a tightly woven piece of dark cloth. Your light sabre
>>>> photons can't penetrate it!
>>> Those freaking things melt down blast doors. No dark cloth is going to
>>> help you there. Besides, you won't find a fabric black to all
>>> wavelengths.
>> So what wave length is your light sabre on? Is it a kind of laser with a
>> monolithic wave length?
>
> I *assume* you mean monochromatic. Anyway, ignoring the impossibility to
> contain light in such a way as required for a light sabre, I'd probably
> go for several different wave lengths. Mostly short wavelengths, to get
> more energy in, let's say one in the visible range, one ultraviolet,
> soft x-ray, hard x-ray, gamma. No one material would be able to cancel
> that, and the only thing that really helps against the more energetic
> rays is distance, of course. But I'm ranting. Again.
Why the visible range? Isn't it more fun to kill someone when they don't
know what hit them?
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> emmel wrote:
>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>
>>>>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>>>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>>> I think that was actually 'agu'...
>>> You invented it.
>>
>> Yeah, I know, but I was pretty sure it was 'agu'. Fickle things, these
>> memories.
>
> It could be. But a '&' would be more consistent.
Are we still talking about me?
>>>>> I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
>>>> Yeah, I faintly remember there being something like that. Was more fun
>>>> in the radio series, though...
>>> "You know what this world could do without? ... Me".
>>> ::Arthur Dent leaves earth with Trillian in his arms::
>>
>> The radio dramatisation had a couple of different endings. Not written
>> by DNA because of obvious reasons (Hah, probably he's just dead for tax
>> reasons!), but I liked them. One was a scene in front of Arthur's house
>> with the bulldozers rolling in - and Arthur and Fenchurch both lying in
>> the way this time.
>
> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
Nah, it already has been by then...
>>>>>>>>>> You know, there is a Windows version of Vim...
>>>>>>>>>> <eg>
>>>>>>>>>> Come to the vi side of the force, Neo!
>>>>>>>>> I am more an emacs person ;-)
>>>>>>>> ::draws light sabre::
>>>>>>> ::throws anti-photon net::
>>>>>> OK, I just looked it up to make sure: There is no such thing as an
>>>>>> anti-photon. I should really kill you for this.
>>>>> It is just a tightly woven piece of dark cloth. Your light sabre
>>>>> photons can't penetrate it!
>>>> Those freaking things melt down blast doors. No dark cloth is going to
>>>> help you there. Besides, you won't find a fabric black to all
>>>> wavelengths.
>>> So what wave length is your light sabre on? Is it a kind of laser with a
>>> monolithic wave length?
>>
>> I *assume* you mean monochromatic. Anyway, ignoring the impossibility to
>> contain light in such a way as required for a light sabre, I'd probably
>> go for several different wave lengths. Mostly short wavelengths, to get
>> more energy in, let's say one in the visible range, one ultraviolet,
>> soft x-ray, hard x-ray, gamma. No one material would be able to cancel
>> that, and the only thing that really helps against the more energetic
>> rays is distance, of course. But I'm ranting. Again.
>
> Why the visible range? Isn't it more fun to kill someone when they don't
> know what hit them?
Hard to direct that thing when you can't see its outline. Also quite
difficult to recognize the badies without the red light sabres :-)
Besides, if I wanted to kill someone without them realising
until it is too late, I'd opt for a nice gun. Or poison? A length of
very thin wire? A dagger! Nah, better to arrange for an accident after
all.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>>>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>>>>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>>>> I think that was actually 'agu'...
>>>> You invented it.
>>> Yeah, I know, but I was pretty sure it was 'agu'. Fickle things, these
>>> memories.
>> It could be. But a '&' would be more consistent.
>
> Are we still talking about me?
I am not sure. Do you have fickle memory or do I?
>>>>>> I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
>>>>> Yeah, I faintly remember there being something like that. Was more fun
>>>>> in the radio series, though...
>>>> "You know what this world could do without? ... Me".
>>>> ::Arthur Dent leaves earth with Trillian in his arms::
>>> The radio dramatisation had a couple of different endings. Not written
>>> by DNA because of obvious reasons (Hah, probably he's just dead for tax
>>> reasons!), but I liked them. One was a scene in front of Arthur's house
>>> with the bulldozers rolling in - and Arthur and Fenchurch both lying in
>>> the way this time.
>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>
> Nah, it already has been by then...
Not in all possible universes (yet).
It is best to kill someone time and time again. With them not knowing
what hit them. (I love FPSses).
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> emmel wrote:
>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>
>>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>>>>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>>>>>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>>>>> I think that was actually 'agu'...
>>>>> You invented it.
>>>> Yeah, I know, but I was pretty sure it was 'agu'. Fickle things, these
>>>> memories.
>>> It could be. But a '&' would be more consistent.
>>
>> Are we still talking about me?
>
> I am not sure. Do you have fickle memory or do I?
Definitely me.
>>>>>>> I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
>>>>>> Yeah, I faintly remember there being something like that. Was more fun
>>>>>> in the radio series, though...
>>>>> "You know what this world could do without? ... Me".
>>>>> ::Arthur Dent leaves earth with Trillian in his arms::
>>>> The radio dramatisation had a couple of different endings. Not written
>>>> by DNA because of obvious reasons (Hah, probably he's just dead for tax
>>>> reasons!), but I liked them. One was a scene in front of Arthur's house
>>>> with the bulldozers rolling in - and Arthur and Fenchurch both lying in
>>>> the way this time.
>>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>
>> Nah, it already has been by then...
>
> Not in all possible universes (yet).
Tricky problem as the guide collapsed all possible earths. I have to
rehear it some time.
>>> Why the visible range? Isn't it more fun to kill someone when they don't
>>> know what hit them?
>>
>> Hard to direct that thing when you can't see its outline. Also quite
>> difficult to recognize the badies without the red light sabres :-)
>> Besides, if I wanted to kill someone without them realising
>> until it is too late, I'd opt for a nice gun. Or poison? A length of
>> very thin wire? A dagger! Nah, better to arrange for an accident after
>> all.
>
> It is best to kill someone time and time again. With them not knowing
> what hit them. (I love FPSses).
What fun is tricking idiots?
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>
>>>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>>>>>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>>>>>>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>>>>>> I think that was actually 'agu'...
>>>>>> You invented it.
>>>>> Yeah, I know, but I was pretty sure it was 'agu'. Fickle things, these
>>>>> memories.
>>>> It could be. But a '&' would be more consistent.
>>> Are we still talking about me?
>> I am not sure. Do you have fickle memory or do I?
>
> Definitely me.
Well, you use '&' in "d&r" so it makes sense to use it in "agu".
>>>>>>>> I liked the alternate ending of the movie.
>>>>>>> Yeah, I faintly remember there being something like that. Was more fun
>>>>>>> in the radio series, though...
>>>>>> "You know what this world could do without? ... Me".
>>>>>> ::Arthur Dent leaves earth with Trillian in his arms::
>>>>> The radio dramatisation had a couple of different endings. Not written
>>>>> by DNA because of obvious reasons (Hah, probably he's just dead for tax
>>>>> reasons!), but I liked them. One was a scene in front of Arthur's house
>>>>> with the bulldozers rolling in - and Arthur and Fenchurch both lying in
>>>>> the way this time.
>>>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>> Nah, it already has been by then...
>> Not in all possible universes (yet).
>
> Tricky problem as the guide collapsed all possible earths. I have to
> rehear it some time.
But before that Arthur wend to earth to meet Fenchurch. And if they lay
in front of a bulldozer, then the earth is not destroyed yet (at least
the bulldozer isn't).
>>>> Why the visible range? Isn't it more fun to kill someone when they don't
>>>> know what hit them?
>>> Hard to direct that thing when you can't see its outline. Also quite
>>> difficult to recognize the badies without the red light sabres :-)
>>> Besides, if I wanted to kill someone without them realising
>>> until it is too late, I'd opt for a nice gun. Or poison? A length of
>>> very thin wire? A dagger! Nah, better to arrange for an accident after
>>> all.
>> It is best to kill someone time and time again. With them not knowing
>> what hit them. (I love FPSses).
>
> What fun is tricking idiots?
It is more fun to beat someone who thinks he is slightly better at
FPSses than you are. Of course everyone plays differently. You have
campers, which might work in duels but I am more like someone that keeps
on the move, even when shooting at someone else.
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> emmel wrote:
>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>>>>>>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>>>>>>>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>>>>>>> I think that was actually 'agu'...
>>>>>>> You invented it.
>>>>>> Yeah, I know, but I was pretty sure it was 'agu'. Fickle things, these
>>>>>> memories.
>>>>> It could be. But a '&' would be more consistent.
>>>> Are we still talking about me?
>>> I am not sure. Do you have fickle memory or do I?
>>
>> Definitely me.
>
> Well, you use '&' in "d&r" so it makes sense to use it in "agu".
That went through different evolutionary steps, starting with <d&r>. The
more often used form is <d&rlh>. The rest is specific AGC slang, AFAIK.
Not sure if I was responsible for 'uhw', but 'agu' is definitely my
fault - and it is 'agu' indeed, rather than '&gu'. Have a look at
As you can see, that one was traditionally served with a <veg>.
>>>>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>>> Nah, it already has been by then...
>>> Not in all possible universes (yet).
>>
>> Tricky problem as the guide collapsed all possible earths. I have to
>> rehear it some time.
>
> But before that Arthur wend to earth to meet Fenchurch. And if they lay
> in front of a bulldozer, then the earth is not destroyed yet (at least
> the bulldozer isn't).
Nope, that's the very end.
>>>>> Why the visible range? Isn't it more fun to kill someone when they don't
>>>>> know what hit them?
>>>> Hard to direct that thing when you can't see its outline. Also quite
>>>> difficult to recognize the badies without the red light sabres :-)
>>>> Besides, if I wanted to kill someone without them realising
>>>> until it is too late, I'd opt for a nice gun. Or poison? A length of
>>>> very thin wire? A dagger! Nah, better to arrange for an accident after
>>>> all.
>>> It is best to kill someone time and time again. With them not knowing
>>> what hit them. (I love FPSses).
>>
>> What fun is tricking idiots?
>
> It is more fun to beat someone who thinks he is slightly better at
> FPSses than you are. Of course everyone plays differently. You have
> campers, which might work in duels but I am more like someone that keeps
> on the move, even when shooting at someone else.
Camping is very effective against bots.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> At least I have a taste!! <d&rlhuhw>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not getting unconscious? Let me fix that for you...
>>>>>>>>>> <d&rlhuhw&gu>
>>>>>>>>> I think that was actually 'agu'...
>>>>>>>> You invented it.
>>>>>>> Yeah, I know, but I was pretty sure it was 'agu'. Fickle things, these
>>>>>>> memories.
>>>>>> It could be. But a '&' would be more consistent.
>>>>> Are we still talking about me?
>>>> I am not sure. Do you have fickle memory or do I?
>>> Definitely me.
>> Well, you use '&' in "d&r" so it makes sense to use it in "agu".
>
> That went through different evolutionary steps, starting with <d&r>. The
> more often used form is <d&rlh>. The rest is specific AGC slang, AFAIK.
> Not sure if I was responsible for 'uhw', but 'agu' is definitely my
> fault - and it is 'agu' indeed, rather than '&gu'. Have a look at
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.creatures/browse_thread/thread/7d4623ef54cb93d3?q=%3Cd%26rlhuhw%3E
>
> As you can see, that one was traditionally served with a <veg>.
I didn't realize you were in this group for so long! You're the last
little norn that could <g>.
>>>>>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>>>> Nah, it already has been by then...
>>>> Not in all possible universes (yet).
>>> Tricky problem as the guide collapsed all possible earths. I have to
>>> rehear it some time.
>> But before that Arthur wend to earth to meet Fenchurch. And if they lay
>> in front of a bulldozer, then the earth is not destroyed yet (at least
>> the bulldozer isn't).
>
> Nope, that's the very end.
::points to signature::
>>>>>> Why the visible range? Isn't it more fun to kill someone when they don't
>>>>>> know what hit them?
>>>>> Hard to direct that thing when you can't see its outline. Also quite
>>>>> difficult to recognize the badies without the red light sabres :-)
>>>>> Besides, if I wanted to kill someone without them realising
>>>>> until it is too late, I'd opt for a nice gun. Or poison? A length of
>>>>> very thin wire? A dagger! Nah, better to arrange for an accident after
>>>>> all.
>>>> It is best to kill someone time and time again. With them not knowing
>>>> what hit them. (I love FPSses).
>>> What fun is tricking idiots?
>> It is more fun to beat someone who thinks he is slightly better at
>> FPSses than you are. Of course everyone plays differently. You have
>> campers, which might work in duels but I am more like someone that keeps
>> on the move, even when shooting at someone else.
>
> Camping is very effective against bots.
Only in Duels. You don't get the most kills by just camping. Neither do
you get good weapons by doing this!
emmel
Yeah, and I frequented the CDN (Creatures Developer Network) news sever
even before that, back when they still existed. Good times those.
> You're the last little norn that could <g>.
Huh?
>>>>>>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>>>>> Nah, it already has been by then...
>>>>> Not in all possible universes (yet).
>>>> Tricky problem as the guide collapsed all possible earths. I have to
>>>> rehear it some time.
>>> But before that Arthur wend to earth to meet Fenchurch. And if they lay
>>> in front of a bulldozer, then the earth is not destroyed yet (at least
>>> the bulldozer isn't).
>>
>> Nope, that's the very end.
>
>::points to signature::
Ah, shit. That gets cut when I hit reply.
...
I see. Let me answer this with the words of DNA himself:
Anything that happens, happens.
Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen,
causes something else to happen.
Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again,
happens again.
It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though.
>>>>>>> Why the visible range? Isn't it more fun to kill someone when they don't
>>>>>>> know what hit them?
>>>>>> Hard to direct that thing when you can't see its outline. Also quite
>>>>>> difficult to recognize the badies without the red light sabres :-)
>>>>>> Besides, if I wanted to kill someone without them realising
>>>>>> until it is too late, I'd opt for a nice gun. Or poison? A length of
>>>>>> very thin wire? A dagger! Nah, better to arrange for an accident after
>>>>>> all.
>>>>> It is best to kill someone time and time again. With them not knowing
>>>>> what hit them. (I love FPSses).
>>>> What fun is tricking idiots?
>>> It is more fun to beat someone who thinks he is slightly better at
>>> FPSses than you are. Of course everyone plays differently. You have
>>> campers, which might work in duels but I am more like someone that keeps
>>> on the move, even when shooting at someone else.
>>
>> Camping is very effective against bots.
>
> Only in Duels. You don't get the most kills by just camping. Neither do
> you get good weapons by doing this!
Oh, that greatly depends on your position, I think. Might be easier in
Quake, though.
Neo
The little engine that could?
>>>>>>>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>>>>>> Nah, it already has been by then...
>>>>>> Not in all possible universes (yet).
>>>>> Tricky problem as the guide collapsed all possible earths. I have to
>>>>> rehear it some time.
>>>> But before that Arthur wend to earth to meet Fenchurch. And if they lay
>>>> in front of a bulldozer, then the earth is not destroyed yet (at least
>>>> the bulldozer isn't).
>>> Nope, that's the very end.
>> ::points to signature::
>
> Ah, shit. That gets cut when I hit reply.
> ...
> I see. Let me answer this with the words of DNA himself:
>
>
> Anything that happens, happens.
>
> Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen,
> causes something else to happen.
>
> Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again,
> happens again.
>
> It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though.
Point is that Mister Smith says that to Neo and then gets defeated.
Worse still, he has visions and deja vu while saying this.
>>>>>>>> Why the visible range? Isn't it more fun to kill someone when they don't
>>>>>>>> know what hit them?
>>>>>>> Hard to direct that thing when you can't see its outline. Also quite
>>>>>>> difficult to recognize the badies without the red light sabres :-)
>>>>>>> Besides, if I wanted to kill someone without them realising
>>>>>>> until it is too late, I'd opt for a nice gun. Or poison? A length of
>>>>>>> very thin wire? A dagger! Nah, better to arrange for an accident after
>>>>>>> all.
>>>>>> It is best to kill someone time and time again. With them not knowing
>>>>>> what hit them. (I love FPSses).
>>>>> What fun is tricking idiots?
>>>> It is more fun to beat someone who thinks he is slightly better at
>>>> FPSses than you are. Of course everyone plays differently. You have
>>>> campers, which might work in duels but I am more like someone that keeps
>>>> on the move, even when shooting at someone else.
>>> Camping is very effective against bots.
>> Only in Duels. You don't get the most kills by just camping. Neither do
>> you get good weapons by doing this!
>
> Oh, that greatly depends on your position, I think. Might be easier in
> Quake, though.
You mean Quake III perhaps? Quake I was you against loads of (weak)
monsters.
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>>> As you can see, that one was traditionally served with a <veg>.
>>> I didn't realize you were in this group for so long!
>>
>> Yeah, and I frequented the CDN (Creatures Developer Network) news sever
>> even before that, back when they still existed. Good times those.
>>
>>> You're the last little norn that could <g>.
>>
>> Huh?
>
> The little engine that could?
Erm, what?
>>>>>>>>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>>>>>>> Nah, it already has been by then...
>>>>>>> Not in all possible universes (yet).
>>>>>> Tricky problem as the guide collapsed all possible earths. I have to
>>>>>> rehear it some time.
>>>>> But before that Arthur wend to earth to meet Fenchurch. And if they lay
>>>>> in front of a bulldozer, then the earth is not destroyed yet (at least
>>>>> the bulldozer isn't).
>>>> Nope, that's the very end.
>>> ::points to signature::
>>
>> Ah, shit. That gets cut when I hit reply.
>> ...
>> I see. Let me answer this with the words of DNA himself:
>>
>>
>> Anything that happens, happens.
>>
>> Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen,
>> causes something else to happen.
>>
>> Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again,
>> happens again.
>>
>> It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though.
>
> Point is that Mister Smith says that to Neo and then gets defeated.
> Worse still, he has visions and deja vu while saying this.
And that is relevant how exactly?
>>>> Camping is very effective against bots.
>>> Only in Duels. You don't get the most kills by just camping. Neither do
>>> you get good weapons by doing this!
>>
>> Oh, that greatly depends on your position, I think. Might be easier in
>> Quake, though.
>
> You mean Quake III perhaps? Quake I was you against loads of (weak)
> monsters.
Yeah.
BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>>> As you can see, that one was traditionally served with a <veg>.
>>>> I didn't realize you were in this group for so long!
>>> Yeah, and I frequented the CDN (Creatures Developer Network) news sever
>>> even before that, back when they still existed. Good times those.
>>>
>>>> You're the last little norn that could <g>.
>>> Huh?
>> The little engine that could?
>
> Erm, what?
It's a children's book about the American dream.
>>>>>>>>>> Ah! They can take turns while the earth is being destroyed.
>>>>>>>>> Nah, it already has been by then...
>>>>>>>> Not in all possible universes (yet).
>>>>>>> Tricky problem as the guide collapsed all possible earths. I have to
>>>>>>> rehear it some time.
>>>>>> But before that Arthur wend to earth to meet Fenchurch. And if they lay
>>>>>> in front of a bulldozer, then the earth is not destroyed yet (at least
>>>>>> the bulldozer isn't).
>>>>> Nope, that's the very end.
>>>> ::points to signature::
>>> Ah, shit. That gets cut when I hit reply.
>>> ...
>>> I see. Let me answer this with the words of DNA himself:
>>>
>>>
>>> Anything that happens, happens.
>>>
>>> Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen,
>>> causes something else to happen.
>>>
>>> Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again,
>>> happens again.
>>>
>>> It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though.
>> Point is that Mister Smith says that to Neo and then gets defeated.
>> Worse still, he has visions and deja vu while saying this.
>
> And that is relevant how exactly?
The end of the earth. The end of the story. The beginning of Fenchurch
and Arthur together.
It is relevant in lots of different ways!
>>>>> Camping is very effective against bots.
>>>> Only in Duels. You don't get the most kills by just camping. Neither do
>>>> you get good weapons by doing this!
>>> Oh, that greatly depends on your position, I think. Might be easier in
>>> Quake, though.
>> You mean Quake III perhaps? Quake I was you against loads of (weak)
>> monsters.
>
> Yeah.
It is true that in Quake III there are certain hotspots where the AI
seems to gather.
> BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
> Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
Seems you reached your posting limit ;-)))
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> emmel wrote:
>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>
>>>>>> As you can see, that one was traditionally served with a <veg>.
>>>>> I didn't realize you were in this group for so long!
>>>> Yeah, and I frequented the CDN (Creatures Developer Network) news sever
>>>> even before that, back when they still existed. Good times those.
>>>>
>>>>> You're the last little norn that could <g>.
>>>> Huh?
>>> The little engine that could?
>>
>> Erm, what?
>
> It's a children's book about the American dream.
I prefer to dream British.
(I still don't get it, BTW.)
If you say so.
>>>>>> Camping is very effective against bots.
>>>>> Only in Duels. You don't get the most kills by just camping. Neither do
>>>>> you get good weapons by doing this!
>>>> Oh, that greatly depends on your position, I think. Might be easier in
>>>> Quake, though.
>>> You mean Quake III perhaps? Quake I was you against loads of (weak)
>>> monsters.
>>
>> Yeah.
>
> It is true that in Quake III there are certain hotspots where the AI
> seems to gather.
And they do the same jumps all over. Railgun heaven.
>> BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
>> Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
>
> Seems you reached your posting limit ;-)))
Motzarella doesn't have any posting limit I'm aware of. That's why they
require you to register.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>> emmel wrote:
>>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you can see, that one was traditionally served with a <veg>.
>>>>>> I didn't realize you were in this group for so long!
>>>>> Yeah, and I frequented the CDN (Creatures Developer Network) news sever
>>>>> even before that, back when they still existed. Good times those.
>>>>>
>>>>>> You're the last little norn that could <g>.
>>>>> Huh?
>>>> The little engine that could?
>>> Erm, what?
>> It's a children's book about the American dream.
>
> I prefer to dream British.
> (I still don't get it, BTW.)
You're the only one left of all the norns that once were in this group.
The last little norn that could.
All the others gave up!
Except that they shoot you while they jump.
>>> BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
>>> Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
>> Seems you reached your posting limit ;-)))
>
> Motzarella doesn't have any posting limit I'm aware of. That's why they
> require you to register.
Just kidding. It is probably something on your end that messed up :-)
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>>>>>> You're the last little norn that could <g>.
>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>> The little engine that could?
>>>> Erm, what?
>>> It's a children's book about the American dream.
>>
>> I prefer to dream British.
>> (I still don't get it, BTW.)
>
> You're the only one left of all the norns that once were in this group.
> The last little norn that could.
I'm not a Norn.
> All the others gave up!
Nah, I scared them away!
>>>>>>>> Camping is very effective against bots.
>>>>>>> Only in Duels. You don't get the most kills by just camping. Neither do
>>>>>>> you get good weapons by doing this!
>>>>>> Oh, that greatly depends on your position, I think. Might be easier in
>>>>>> Quake, though.
>>>>> You mean Quake III perhaps? Quake I was you against loads of (weak)
>>>>> monsters.
>>>> Yeah.
>>> It is true that in Quake III there are certain hotspots where the AI
>>> seems to gather.
>>
>> And they do the same jumps all over. Railgun heaven.
>
> Except that they shoot you while they jump.
Not in a large open area with plenty of other targets ;-)
>>>> BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
>>>> Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
>>> Seems you reached your posting limit ;-)))
>>
>> Motzarella doesn't have any posting limit I'm aware of. That's why they
>> require you to register.
>
> Just kidding.
It's not that far fetched. Quite a few servers have been known to
enforce that kind of thing. (Google seems to be very restrictive in that
respect, BTW.)
> It is probably something on your end that messed up :-)
I don't think so. slrn gave me an explicit server error.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>>>>>> You're the last little norn that could <g>.
>>>>>>> Huh?
>>>>>> The little engine that could?
>>>>> Erm, what?
>>>> It's a children's book about the American dream.
>>> I prefer to dream British.
>>> (I still don't get it, BTW.)
>> You're the only one left of all the norns that once were in this group.
>> The last little norn that could.
>
> I'm not a Norn.
You are to the Shee.
>> All the others gave up!
>
> Nah, I scared them away!
Nah, they just got bored with you ;-)
>>>>>>>>> Camping is very effective against bots.
>>>>>>>> Only in Duels. You don't get the most kills by just camping. Neither do
>>>>>>>> you get good weapons by doing this!
>>>>>>> Oh, that greatly depends on your position, I think. Might be easier in
>>>>>>> Quake, though.
>>>>>> You mean Quake III perhaps? Quake I was you against loads of (weak)
>>>>>> monsters.
>>>>> Yeah.
>>>> It is true that in Quake III there are certain hotspots where the AI
>>>> seems to gather.
>>> And they do the same jumps all over. Railgun heaven.
>> Except that they shoot you while they jump.
>
> Not in a large open area with plenty of other targets ;-)
You sound like the sniper kind of player.
>>>>> BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
>>>>> Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
>>>> Seems you reached your posting limit ;-)))
>>> Motzarella doesn't have any posting limit I'm aware of. That's why they
>>> require you to register.
>> Just kidding.
>
> It's not that far fetched. Quite a few servers have been known to
> enforce that kind of thing. (Google seems to be very restrictive in that
> respect, BTW.)
>
>> It is probably something on your end that messed up :-)
>
> I don't think so. slrn gave me an explicit server error.
If my servers messes up it is just gone till it finds it's way back
online.
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> The last little norn that could.
>>
>> I'm not a Norn.
>
> You are to the Shee.
Am not. I'm the (not green, thank you very much) monster lurking in the
shadows.
>>> All the others gave up!
>>
>> Nah, I scared them away!
>
> Nah, they just got bored with you ;-)
I was there, I've seen things you can't even dream of.
>>>>> It is true that in Quake III there are certain hotspots where the AI
>>>>> seems to gather.
>>>> And they do the same jumps all over. Railgun heaven.
>>> Except that they shoot you while they jump.
>>
>> Not in a large open area with plenty of other targets ;-)
>
> You sound like the sniper kind of player.
You caught me. Though I never really played much.
>>>>>> BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
>>>>>> Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
>>>>> Seems you reached your posting limit ;-)))
>>>> Motzarella doesn't have any posting limit I'm aware of. That's why they
>>>> require you to register.
>>> Just kidding.
>>
>> It's not that far fetched. Quite a few servers have been known to
>> enforce that kind of thing. (Google seems to be very restrictive in that
>> respect, BTW.)
>>
>>> It is probably something on your end that messed up :-)
>>
>> I don't think so. slrn gave me an explicit server error.
>
> If my servers messes up it is just gone till it finds it's way back
> online.
As I said: Strangest error I ever got.
Neo
> Thus Neo spoke:
>
>> emmel wrote:
>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>
>>>> The last little norn that could.
>>> I'm not a Norn.
>> You are to the Shee.
>
> Am not. I'm the (not green, thank you very much) monster lurking in the
> shadows.
So you are immune to heavy radiation and poison?
>>>> All the others gave up!
>>> Nah, I scared them away!
>> Nah, they just got bored with you ;-)
>
> I was there, I've seen things you can't even dream of.
Like, more than three posters in the same week?
>>>>>> It is true that in Quake III there are certain hotspots where the AI
>>>>>> seems to gather.
>>>>> And they do the same jumps all over. Railgun heaven.
>>>> Except that they shoot you while they jump.
>>> Not in a large open area with plenty of other targets ;-)
>> You sound like the sniper kind of player.
>
> You caught me. Though I never really played much.
I can advice you to get a wired mouse with more than 400 DPI. Much more
accurate for faster shots!
>>>>>>> BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
>>>>>>> Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
>>>>>> Seems you reached your posting limit ;-)))
>>>>> Motzarella doesn't have any posting limit I'm aware of. That's why they
>>>>> require you to register.
>>>> Just kidding.
>>> It's not that far fetched. Quite a few servers have been known to
>>> enforce that kind of thing. (Google seems to be very restrictive in that
>>> respect, BTW.)
>>>
>>>> It is probably something on your end that messed up :-)
>>> I don't think so. slrn gave me an explicit server error.
>> If my servers messes up it is just gone till it finds it's way back
>> online.
>
> As I said: Strangest error I ever got.
At least you got an error :-)
emmel
> emmel wrote:
>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>
>>> emmel wrote:
>>>> Thus Neo spoke:
>>>>
>>>>> The last little norn that could.
>>>> I'm not a Norn.
>>> You are to the Shee.
>>
>> Am not. I'm the (not green, thank you very much) monster lurking in the
>> shadows.
>
> So you are immune to heavy radiation and poison?
Partially, for the rest there's regeneration. I'd be no good monster
otherwise, eh?
>>>>> All the others gave up!
>>>> Nah, I scared them away!
>>> Nah, they just got bored with you ;-)
>>
>> I was there, I've seen things you can't even dream of.
>
> Like, more than three posters in the same week?
Hah! *Four*.
<bg>
>>>>>>> It is true that in Quake III there are certain hotspots where the AI
>>>>>>> seems to gather.
>>>>>> And they do the same jumps all over. Railgun heaven.
>>>>> Except that they shoot you while they jump.
>>>> Not in a large open area with plenty of other targets ;-)
>>> You sound like the sniper kind of player.
>>
>> You caught me. Though I never really played much.
>
> I can advice you to get a wired mouse with more than 400 DPI. Much more
> accurate for faster shots!
I try to avoid mice as far as possible.
>>>>>>>> BTW, the newssever refused my post and unsubscribed all of my groups.
>>>>>>>> Strangest newsserver problem I ever had.
>>>>>>> Seems you reached your posting limit ;-)))
>>>>>> Motzarella doesn't have any posting limit I'm aware of. That's why they
>>>>>> require you to register.
>>>>> Just kidding.
>>>> It's not that far fetched. Quite a few servers have been known to
>>>> enforce that kind of thing. (Google seems to be very restrictive in that
>>>> respect, BTW.)
>>>>
>>>>> It is probably something on your end that messed up :-)
>>>> I don't think so. slrn gave me an explicit server error.
>>> If my servers messes up it is just gone till it finds it's way back
>>> online.
>>
>> As I said: Strangest error I ever got.
>
> At least you got an error :-)
Yeah, yesterday I couldn't reach it at all.