JFK Assassination Forum Archives -- Misc. Topics Of Interest (Part 208)

[David Von Pein]

ARCHIVED JFK ASSASSINATION FORUM POSTS OF INTEREST (PART 208):

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WHEN WAS J.D. TIPPIT KILLED?:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/81921d0b17703523
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/2029ee63d24ecf87
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/b51b9574ccf2cee0
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/591661a94d9c3b4c
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/39d74b6b863d10ca
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/c8017a0a630c6da3
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/ad383ffbfc9a6271
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/c80cab03015c6825
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/0ae4d9d1fbdc1400
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/ffd579e88322d8e9
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/3ec40f692fe26414


HELEN MARKHAM:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/fd6db113210f51d8


BILLY LOVELADY:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b9277525dc10a35c


WHAT WOULD ROBERT KENNEDY HAVE DONE?:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20263#entry275324


COMMISSION EXHIBIT 399:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/9f843023d513f6d8


PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S HEAD:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,8492.msg246187.html#msg246187
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,8492.msg246190.html#msg246190


VINCENT BUGLIOSI C-SPAN INTERVIEW (NOVEMBER 4, 2007):
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/06/vincent-bugliosi-cspan-interview.html


THE CONSPIRACY MYTHS CONTINUE:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-conspiracy-myths-continue.html
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,8547.msg247735.html#msg247735


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[David Von Pein]

SOMEONE ASKED VIA AN E-MAIL:

What was CIA/Washington doing with Oswald at that time? What did they
see in him?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't think they were "doing" anything with him at all. I think
Oswald merely slipped through the cracks. The FBI was doing its job in
keeping an eye on LHO right up through early Nov. '63. And since he
wasn't considered a threat to the President, no further action was
taken by the FBI. The CIA opened a 201 file on Oswald and the FBI was
informed about him and kept tabs on him in both New Orleans and
Dallas.

In hindsight, of course, everyone can say that the Feds and the CIA
didn't do their jobs and that they should have known Oswald was up to
no good. But hindsight always affords us perfect vision. However,
given what was KNOWN by the FBI as of Nov. 22 (and even taking into
account Oswald's arrest in New Orleans and even his attempted
defection to Russia), I don't see how anybody could have predicted
that Oswald was about to assassinate JFK.

Granted, maybe the "Defection To Russia" business should have been a
major tip-off. But apparently it wasn't. And that's too bad. But I
don't think it was a "conspiratorial" oversight. The authorities just
simply did not regard Lee Oswald as a threat to the President's safety
in November of '63. Period.

I've written a lot about the JFK murder case, but I am far from being
an "expert" in some of the sub-topics relating to the assassination. I
consider myself more proficient in the areas relating to the physical
evidence and Oswald's actions and movements around the time of the JFK
and Tippit crimes, but I am weaker when it comes to a lot of the "CIA"
and "KGB" theories and other theories that deal in speculation and
rumors. And trying to answer a question like -- What would have
happened if such-and-such agency knew about such-and-such prior to
JFK's death? -- is something I don't usually engage in. It's all pure
guesswork and can never be known.

When you think about it from another point-of-view, it's kind of
ironic (and sad) that the type of country we live in (a democracy with
the freedom to do and say what we want to) resulted, in a way, in
Oswald being able to have the opportunity to do what he did on
11/22/63. Tighter restrictions on human behavior might have prevented
the tragedy in Dallas.

So maybe we can say that John Kennedy paid the ultimate price for
being the leader of a nation where such tight restrictions and
limitations of our rights and freedoms are not encouraged or wanted.

David Von Pein
June 13, 2013

[David Von Pein]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19330&&page=3#entry257806

GREG PARKER SAID:

That you and Mr. Mack believe history was accurately and fully
recorded by the Warren Commission does not make it so. It published a
history that was both incomplete, and at times, misleading.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You conspiracists just can't get it through your heads that Mr. Mack
is NOT an "LNer". He thinks there WAS a conspiracy. Why do you guys
always totally ignore that fact when it comes to discussing Gary Mack
of the Sixth Floor Museum?

As for the Warren Commission's investigation being "incomplete", let's
face reality here -- for a conspiracy theorist like yourself, Greg, no
history of this case could ever possibly hope to be "complete",
because you keep piling on more and more stuff (aka: chaff) that only
serves to muddy the waters when it comes to the basic bottom-line
facts concerning Lee Oswald's guilt.

A great example of such muddying activity can be found in your posts
in this thread. You've got enough six degrees of separation junk to
cover a dozen murder cases. Does it ever end? And do you really think
that stuff like the stuff quoted below (quoting you, Greg Parker) is
relevant to who murdered JFK? Does any of this really change the
physical evidence in the case--which is evidence that conclusively
proves LHO's guilt in TWO murders in 1963?:

"At the same time young Lee lived with him, John Pic worked in the
intelligence branch of the Coast Guard (The Port Security Unit)
alongside the FBI and ONI chasing commie subversives out of the ports.

Lee's truancy commenced when he turned 13 and ended at the same time
Pic left the PSU.

While all this was going on, research was being done into the Korean
POWs and what made some "turn".

A Harvard graduate was inside the consulate office with the former
Harvard CIA spotter when Oswald attempted to defect. His name was Ed
Keenan. He was an expert in Soviet and Russian history, language and
society. The same year that Oswald left the USSR, Keenan was kicked
out as a spy. His name is missing from your "history" and he is not
mentioned anywhere in the 26 volumes. Why is that?"

[End Parker Quotes.]

Oh, brother, what a bunch of nothin'.

The single biggest thing that has made the JFK murder case seem so
endlessly complicated (even though it's really a very simple crime to
solve) is the fact that so many conspiracy theorists like Greg Parker,
James Fetzer, Mark Lane, James DiEugenio, and John Armstrong (et al)
have spent thousands of hours heaping more and more "suspects" and
"connections" and minutiae and unsupportable theories onto the
conspiracy table, making it absolutely impossible to make the record
"complete".

As Vincent Bugliosi has said many times (and he's right): The JFK case
is endless; there is no bottom to the pile.

And the only reason it's endless is because of the conspiracy
theorists' never-ending quest to be right about some element of their
perpetual conspiracy theories in the John F. Kennedy case.

But when an LNer on the other side takes time to examine some of these
theories and "connections" more closely, the theory always turns out
to be bogus.

Here are just a few examples:

1.) The subject of this very Education Forum thread -- the postmark on
Oswald's envelope (CE773). There's now good reason to conclude that
the "12" on that Dallas postmark doesn't have anything to do with any
postal zone within the city of Dallas at all.

2.) The death of Domingo Benavides' brother, Eddy. For years, outer-
fringe CTers were saying that Eddy Benavides was murdered as part of
some continuing conspiracy plot in the JFK assassination (i.e., to
send a message to Domingo prior to his giving his Warren Commission
testimony). But recently it's been learned (via Dallas newspaper
clippings) that Eddy Benavides didn't die in 1964, he died in 1965, a
full year AFTER Domingo gave his WC testimony.

3.) The three tramps, whose arrest records were discovered years later
(by a pair of conspiracy theorists, of all people), with the tramps
turning out to be nothing but...real tramps.

4.) The "backyard photos are fake" theory, which, amazingly, many
CTers still embrace to this day, even though we now know (as of 1977)
that Lee Oswald himself personally signed one of the photos and gave
it to George DeMohrenschildt.

5.) The people who scream that "The Single-Bullet Theory is physically
impossible" should now be hiding their faces in shame and
embarrassment here in the 21st century, due to the fine work done by
people like Dale Myers, Failure Analysis, and the Discovery Channel --
all of whom have pretty much verified that the SBT is a workable and
reasonable conclusion (especially when considering what the silly
multi-gun anti-SBT alternatives have got to be if the SBT is untrue).

Give me a few more minutes and I could come up with lots more theories
that have deservedly been flushed down the toilet since 1963.

I'll close with a few relevant and astute quotes from the great Jean
Davison:

"The conspiracists' methods produce a surreal world. Every discrepancy
is interpreted as a crack in the official stone wall through which one
may glimpse the ugly truth of what happened. Behind the wall are
disconnected scenes, each with its own set of conspirators. On close
examination, many of these scenes evaporate." -- Jean Davison; Page
277 of "Oswald's Game"

~~~~~~~~~~

"The reader [of pro-conspiracy books] will understand the difficulty
these writers have sidestepped if he or she tries to invent a story
that explains why an INNOCENT Oswald went to Irving for 'curtain
rods', left his wedding ring behind the next morning, brought a
package into the Depository, and so on. Because the evidence against
Oswald is strong, any detailed reconstruction that argues a frame-up
will inevitably sound less plausible than one that argues his guilt."
-- Jean Davison; Page 276 of "Oswald's Game"

~~~~~~~~~~

"Instead of focusing on the important issue -- that Oswald in fact
ordered the weapon that was delivered to his P.O. Box, the CTs focus
on the "capillaries," nitpicking the P.O.'s faulty record-keeping." --
Jean Davison; January 17, 2006

~~~~~~~~~~

"The assassination of John Kennedy was neither an act of random
violence nor a conspiracy. It was carried out as a result of Oswald's
character and background interacting with circumstance." -- Jean
Davison; Page 297 of "Oswald's Game"

[David Von Pein]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19357&#entry257894

DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:

Find some [Klein's Sporting Goods] order with FC seriel #'s on them
and SEE WHAT WAS ORDERED.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

This gives me a perfect opportunity to utilize this same type of "YOU
FIND IT" argument in a related "rifle" area of the case:

For years, CTers like Thomas H. Purvis (and others) have claimed that
there are very likely a whole bunch of additional 91/38 Carcano rifles
in existence with the serial number C2766, other than just CE139
(Oswald's rifle).

Purvis, in fact, has stated in the past that there could be as many as
"40 to 50" Carcano rifles floating around with the exact same serial
number of C2766 adorning them. (Which is totally insane, to begin
with.)

But, to date, I have never ever seen any conspiracy theorist produce
any proof at all that even TWO different Carcano rifles have the exact
same serial number -- and that goes for the number "C2766" or ANY
other serial number. I've never seen anyone show proof that there were
two rifles of ANY make or model that have an identical serial number.

The whole idea of identical serial numbers on any products is an
absurd notion on its face. And it's particularly nutty to think that
there are as many as "40 to 50" Carcano 91/38s floating around with
C2766 on them.

The whole idea of a serial number in the first place is to give that
ONE item uniqueness, which sets it apart from all others in its
general class. And particularly rifles, which are often used in crimes
and would require tracing via unique serial numbers.

I can't show David Josephs any other Klein's order forms for rifles
(other than Waldman 7, which is the form that hangs Oswald in a number
of ways). But that's not because no other forms exist. Of course
similar forms did exist in the Klein's files in 1963. For Pete sake,
the Klein's people were scouring those forms and records until the wee
small hours of 11/23/63 looking for one specific form with "C2766" on
it -- which, of course, they found. And that's the ONLY form the FBI
was interested in in November 1963. Other rifle orders were
meaningless then, just as they are meaningless now.

But in my "SHOW ME THE RIFLE" example, I feel the reason we haven't
seen any other "C2766" Carcano rifles is because none of those do
exist (other than the one marked CE139 in the National Archives).

But, maybe in the year 2499, some old gun buff will produce another
ancient Mannlicher-Carcano with the number C2766 stamped on it.

But I'm not holding my breath. (Are you?)

But, of course, even if I'm dead wrong, and there are 150 additional
Carcano 91/38 rifles in the world today with the number "C2766" on
them, it's totally immaterial anyway.

Why?

Because we know that only ONE particular Carcano rifle with C2766 on
it was the weapon that killed President Kennedy in Dallas. And that
one particular C2766 rifle is CE139, the one with Lee Oswald's prints
on it that was found in the building where Lee Oswald worked.

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RELATED "C2766" TALK:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-8.html