Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 44)
David Von Pein
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From July 2006, August
2006, September 2006, February 2007, and March 2007.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Howard Brennan described a window that
could NOT have been the sniper's nest, because Howard's description is
of a window that is WIDE OPEN.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Here are Brennan's comments that the above
kook has taken, mangled, and run full-steam toward the CT end-zone
with.....
HOWARD BRENNAN -- "But I don't recall this window at the time of the
shooting being that low."
DAVID BELIN -- "Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on
the sixth floor?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "Right."
MR. BELIN -- "Now, window A, on Exhibit 481....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0113a.jpg
....when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open
just like this."
MR. BELIN -- "Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately
below?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "That is right."
~~~~~~
You, being a conspiracy-loving kook, have conveniently MOVED that
window Brennan described to the OTHER END of the building for the
purposes of constructing his own conspiracy theory.
But there can be no doubt at all that Brennan was ONLY describing the
southeast corner window during his ENTIRE testimony. Brennan was
simply wrong about the exact window height.
This exchange proves that Brennan can ONLY be referring to the
SOUTHEAST corner window on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository.....
MR. BELIN -- "Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately
below?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "That is right."
Plus, there is the following Howard Brennan quote that also trashes
the idiocy that you're spouting regarding the windows.....
MR. BRENNAN -- "The only thing I said is that they were one window
over below the man that fired the gun."
The "they" above is referring to the black men on the 5th Floor. So,
unless a batch of Negro men were ALSO looking out of the 5th-Floor
windows on the WEST end of the Depository, you've got a big problem
reconciling the above Brennan statement into a nutty theory about
Brennan seeing a west-end assassin.
But even if we WERE to assume that there were some Negroes on the west
end of the building, your crazy theory is still doomed, because
Brennan positively identified two of the Negroes who were on the
SOUTHEAST side of the building. (Does Harold Norman have an identical
twin who was looking out a west-end window on the 5th Floor at 12:30
PM on 11/22/63?)
Care to continue this silly "Moving Windows" charade any further?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- The Warren Commission clearly didn't want to provide proof
that a Thursday visit to Irving was not unique....for their theory
needed a unique visit on a Thursday to pick up a rifle. They simply
lied in order to do so.
DVP -- Thursday visits to Irving were definitely "unique" (i.e.,
"unusual", which is also a definition of the word "unique").
http://webster.com/dictionary/unique
Wesley Frazier, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald all testified that Lee
Oswald's normal pattern was to go to Irving on Fridays and ride back
to Dallas with Frazier on Monday mornings.
In fact, Marina Oswald was absolutely positive that the only time Lee
had come to Irving on a Thursday after he had secured his job at the
Book Depository was on November 21, 1963.....
WESLEY LIEBELER -- "I believe you have previously testified, Marina,
that the only time Lee came up to the Paine's, except on the weekends,
in Irving, was on Thursday night, November 21, 1963?"
MARINA OSWALD -- "Yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the
5th or the 3rd of November or September?"
MR. LIEBELER -- "Yes; I was trying to figure out what day in the week
that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this
store; it would be Wednesday or Thursday, but Lee was never in Irving
on Wednesday or Thursday at any time; is that right?"
MRS. OSWALD -- "Just one time when he came to see me the night before
the assassination."
MR. LIEBELER -- "You are absolutely sure about that?"
MRS. OSWALD -- "Oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask Mrs. Paine. You
know, if he has a job--maybe he don't have a job then?"
WILLIAM McKENZIE -- "At the time when he didn't have a job, did he
come?"
MRS. OSWALD -- "November he had a job."
~~~~~~
JOSEPH BALL -- "Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends?"
WESLEY FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; he did."
MR. BALL -- "On Friday nights."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and
asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "No, sir; it wasn't."
MR. BALL -- "It was on a Thursday."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. BALL -- "Was that the 21st of November?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Lee told Marina that he shot "AT" Walker's house. The bullet
merely made a hole in the window sash; nobody was hit and therefore
nobody can PROVE the INTENT of the shot.
DVP -- Yeah, Lee was just slinking around the allies of right-wing
retired Army Generals and shooting through their windows and just
barely missing them simply to get in a little practice with his new
rifle. And he just got lucky that he missed (although technically
Walker WAS wounded slightly in the arm by a fragment).
Right, Mr. Kook??
And the Walker incident just happens to coincide perfectly with the
timeline of Oswald acquiring his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle via mail-
order in late March of '63.
Did the plotters know that Lee had ordered a weapon, via his own hand
using "Alek Hidell" as an alias? Or did the November plotters just get
lucky--again--when all of this March/April activity perfectly
corroborates the likelihood that Oswald bought the rifle to use for
political assassination purposes?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/66803e710380d800
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- It is clear that the {General Walker} incident was a ruse,
conceived to make it APPEAR that Oswald had attempted to kill Walker.
DVP -- LOL! Here we have a kook's imagination run amok! So, evidently
somebody (Oswald? Or somebody else entirely?) took a shot at Edwin
Walker using a very similar bullet type that Lee Oswald used in his
own Carcano weapon....with this April 10th shooting taking place
months before anyone could possibly have conceived of utilizing some
schnook named Lee Harvey Oswald as a "Patsy" in the JFK attempt come
November....but the April 10 shooter deliberately missed Walker so
that (7 months later) Lee Oswald could be made to look like he had
shot at the general.
That's some great crystal ball those Patsy Plotters possessed.
This "staged" Walker nonsense is almost as silly as the nuttiness
which has Oswald being "placed" in the TSBD in advance by evil
conspirators. Come to think of it, surely you (being the CT-Kook you
obviously are) must believe in that theory too....right?
For, if you think somebody who can see seven months into the future
would deliberately miss Walker so that some guy named Oswald could be
blamed for the crime at the tail-end of the year, then you'd probably
believe anything.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- It's beyond a rational mind to attempt to say that many
bullets can't do what a single bullet is alleged to have done.
DVP -- And yet still have these 3 (or 4) separate bullets magically
give the general appearance of looking like just 1 bullet could have
done this damage. And then have ALL of these other bullets vanish from
view immediately after they left their shooters' guns. Right, kook?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d16a5df97cccb32c
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- You apparently have forgotten that the original plot called
for the murder to be blamed on a group of killers involved in "an
international communist conspiracy".
DVP -- Yeah, I guess I must have "forgotten" that important detail.
But considering the fact it never happened and such a "plot" only
exists within the fertile imaginations of certain conspiracy-adoring
kooks, it's not really worth remembering.
LOL! The kook is running wild again. He somehow even knows what the
"original plot" was vs. what the "final" conspiracy plot called for.
And if the "original plot" called for the JFK murder to be blamed on a
"group of killers" -- then why the massive attempts by the pre-11/22
conspirators to frame ONLY Oswald, via so-called "faked" photos and
Oswald "imposters" and the like?
None of your stupid theories hold together whatsoever. There's not a
bit of glue on any of them to keep them from falling apart when
examined with any common sense at all.
But plot-hungry CTers don't give a damn about the lack of cohesiveness
in any of the crap they gush forth. As long as they can believe in a
"Big Grand Conspiracy" and a massive frame-up/cover-up operation,
they're happy as larks.
There's nothing like being a conspiracy nut, is there? You can even
"layer" your lunacy, and feature BACK-UP "plots" that also can never
be proven.
The kookiness of a rabid conspiracist knows no bounds....that's fairly
obvious. I look forward to the next hilarious installment in the
"Anybody But Oswald" JFK saga.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- If a single bullet didn't wound both men, then the Warren
Commission's THEORY that Oswald was the one and only person involved
is invalid. It's as simple as that. Even a Lone-Nutter should be able
to understand it.
DVP -- Mark Fuhrman certainly doesn't think so. He's wrong regarding
his Anti-SBT theory....but at least he's not in the "Conspiracy Kook"
camp, because he thinks Oswald fired every shot. So that's a big point
in his favor, even though his anti-SBT stuff is nothing more than his
own wild guess, and at the same time totally ignores the Z-Film "SBT
Imprint" (if you will) with respect to the Single-Bullet Theory's
viability.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4c7616a35ac60e22
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Most LNers can't comprehend the bizarre ideas on which the SBT
is based.
DVP -- "Bizarre ideas"?? There's nothing "bizarre" about following the
evidence and where that evidence leads. And the evidence indicates,
without much doubt at all, that just a single bullet traversed both
John F. Kennedy and John B. Connally on November 22nd, 1963.
THE NOT-SO-BIZARRE INVENTORY OF "SBT" EVIDENCE:
1.) One bullet from LHO's gun (Bullet CE399).
2.) No other bullets or fragments are found anyplace that can be
linked to the wounds of either victim (not counting the JFK head
shot).
3.) The victims are in the approximate positions during the shooting
to accept a single bullet from Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle (which is a
rifle that was almost certainly being fired out of the southeast
corner window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository).
4.) The Zapruder Film indicates that JFK and JBC were very likely
reacting to a bullet striking them at the very same point in time.
What's "bizarre" about this inventory of SBT-like items?
Answer -- Nothing. (Except if you reside in Conspiracytown, of
course.)
But I'll tell you what IS "bizarre" -- Any theory that a CTer is
forced to put in the SBT's place. Now THAT'S a truly bizarre event if
that happened....i.e., multiple disappearing bullets; 2 bullets go in
(but not through) JFK's body, even though no hard objects are struck;
wound path on 2 men which looks as if said path could be from one
bullet (but were really from 3 at least, per the kooks).
How anyone can buy into the non-SBT nonsense is anyone's futile guess.
I guess it's because (inherently) hard-boiled CTers will always favor
the kooky over the logical and most-likely version of events.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- These LN idiots promote the "factoid" that the coat was
bunched in defense of their belief that there was an entry hole in the
base of the neck.
DVP -- Think again. No LNer thinks JFK's upper-back wound was/is in
the "neck". It is where it is -- 14 centimeters south of Mr. Mastoid
Process, just like Dr. Boswell said.
And, as Jean Davison has so magnificently conveyed, any movement of
that wound NORTHWARD destroys the SBT trajectory. Just look:
(BTW, I love you, Jean.) ;)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bf3ae3c6c0993e13
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CTer -- Read {Officer Marrion} Baker's affidavit. He said he looked up
after the FIRST shot and noticed pigeons bursting from behind the
Hertz sign on top of the TSBD and thought that was where the gunman
was, so he immediately sped up his motorcycle and ran into the TSBD.
DVP -- LOL. Looks like you need to bone up some more on Baker's
affidavit. Because as anyone can easily see, Baker NEVER ONCE
mentioned "pigeons", or "looking up after the FIRST shot", or
"immediately sped up {my} motorcycle" within any part of his short
11/22/63 affidavit.
Evidently, you merely ASSUME that Officer Baker said all of those
things in his official affidavit. But Baker never said a one of them.
Let's have a look.....
"Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I
realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out
where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building
on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by
the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran
inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people
standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man
stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he
would show me where the stairs were." -- Via 11/22/63 Affidavit of
Marrion L. Baker
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
~~~~~~
Is there ANYTHING that a CT-Kook can't mangle beyond recognition? A
single paragraph of text (Baker's affidavit) has been totally skewed
and misrepresented by that conspiracy theorist. And just WHY do you
suppose that is?
Not too hard to figure out -- that CTer WANTS a "conspiracy" to exist
in the John Kennedy assassination. Simple as that. Sad, but simple.
HOW FAR WILL THE CONSPIRACY KOOKS GO TO SET OSWALD FREE?.....
LET'S TAKE A GANDER:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85290a6703a31221
eca...@tx.rr.com
to have your input.. In fact
parts of the Brennan quotes I
did not know myself.. My only
concern is that those with an
attitude of "There's Something
Fishy Here" will take the time
to read your stellar posts.
Regards,
Ed Cage
On Mar 3, 4:02 am, "David Von Pein" <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 44):
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
> Conspiracy" Debate.
>
> FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From July 2006, August
> 2006, September 2006, February 2007, and March 2007.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Howard Brennan described a window that
> could NOT have been the sniper's nest, because Howard's description is
> of a window that is WIDE OPEN.
>
> DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Here are Brennan's comments that the above
> kook has taken, mangled, and run full-steam toward the CT end-zone
> with.....
>
> HOWARD BRENNAN -- "But I don't recall this window at the time of the
> shooting being that low."
>
> DAVID BELIN -- "Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on
> the sixth floor?"
>
> MR. BRENNAN -- "Right."
>
> MR. BELIN -- "Now, window A, on Exhibit 481....
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_...
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
> read more »...
David Von Pein
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From July 2006, August
2006, September 2006, February 2007, and March 2007.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Howard Brennan described a window that
could NOT have been the sniper's nest, because Howard's description is
of a window that is WIDE OPEN.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Here are Brennan's comments that the above
kook has taken, mangled, and run full-steam toward the CT end-zone
with.....
HOWARD BRENNAN -- "But I don't recall this window at the time of the
shooting being that low."
DAVID BELIN -- "Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on
the sixth floor?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "Right."
MR. BELIN -- "Now, window A, on Exhibit 481....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0113a.jpg
....when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open
just like this."
MR. BELIN -- "Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately
below?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "That is right."
~~~~~~
You, being a conspiracy-loving kook, have conveniently MOVED that
window Brennan described to the OTHER END of the building for the
purposes of constructing your own conspiracy theory.
But there can be no doubt at all that Brennan was ONLY describing the
southeast corner window during his ENTIRE testimony. Brennan was
simply wrong about the exact window height.
This exchange proves that Brennan can ONLY be referring to the
SOUTHEAST corner window on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository.....
MR. BELIN -- "Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately
below?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "That is right."
Plus, there is the following Howard Brennan quote that also trashes
the idiocy that you're spouting regarding the windows.....
MR. BRENNAN -- "The only thing I said is that they were one window
over below the man that fired the gun."
The "they" above is referring to the black men on the 5th Floor. So,
unless a batch of Negro men were ALSO looking out of the 5th-Floor
windows on the WEST end of the Depository, you've got a big problem
reconciling the above Brennan statement into a nutty theory about
Brennan seeing a west-end assassin.
But even if we WERE to assume that there were some Negroes on the west
end of the building, your crazy theory is still doomed, because
Brennan positively identified two of the Negroes who were on the
SOUTHEAST side of the building. (Does Harold Norman have an identical
twin who was looking out a west-end window on the 5th Floor at 12:30
PM on 11/22/63?)
Care to continue this silly "Moving Windows" charade any further?
-------------------------------------------
http://webster.com/dictionary/unique
~~~~~~
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
MR. FRAZIER -- "Right."
-------------------------------------------
Right, Mr. Kook??
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/66803e710380d800
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http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d16a5df97cccb32c
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