Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 36)
David Von Pein
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From January 2005 and
February 2007.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- You continue to ignore the Elm Street
witnesses' testimony.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Well, as we all know, SOME witnesses ARE
wrong. Plain and simple. There are many differing ear/eyewitness
accounts, and SOME ARE INCORRECT. Period.
Let's use Charles Brehm as just one example -- Brehm is a "3 Shots"
witness, but he said the third shot was the "missed" shot. He's
certain that President Kennedy was struck in the head by the second of
the three shots (which Brehm said all came from behind the President's
car).
"The third shot really scared me", said Brehm. "Because with that wild
third shot, I didn't know if we had a shoot-'em-up going on in the
Plaza." -- (Paraphrasing Brehm.)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brehm.htm
Of course, if an LNer (such as myself) wishes to believe all portions
of Brehm's account of the shooting, I would then have to discount and/
or ignore portions of Governor John Connally's testimony (among
others) regarding the shooting sequence -- because Mr. Connally said
that the third and last shot was not a "miss", but was the JFK head
shot (as most of the other witnesses claimed as well).
So, as can be illustrated by just this one example (Connally vs.
Brehm; who were just feet away from each other in Dealey Plaza during
the terrible event), one of these two men is just simply mistaken
about the exact shooting sequence.
It's difficult, indeed, to know who to "believe" and whose testimony
to "disregard". But it's somewhat difficult to totally disregard Mr.
Brehm's overall account of the shooting, because he is (I think) one
of very few witnesses who pretty much got the majority of the event
CORRECT with regard to what the post-assassination evidence would
ultimately show, more so than any other DP witness.....
I.E.:
1.) Exactly three shots fired.
2.) All shots coming from behind the President's limousine (from the
area of the Book Depository).
3.) Two "hits" to JFK's body and one "missed" shot.
4.) A six-to-eight-second shooting timeline.
5.) No shots coming from Grassy Knoll area.
If Brehm had said the FIRST shot (instead of #3) had "gone wild" and
missed the limo, he'd have had the shooting sequence and timing
exactly matching what the Warren Commission would be saying in its
final Report ten months later.*
* = Keeping in mind that the WC itself was uncertain (and said so) as
to which shot missed.
But then we have John Connally's unwavering testimony of hearing but
not being struck by the first shot. And Connally is a tough witness to
ignore regarding the shooting timeline for a very important reason --
Connally HIMSELF WAS HIT BY A BULLET.
That fact alone gives JBC kind of a "built-in" clock reference to the
timeline of the whole shooting. Whereas, of course, Brehm can only
recount his version from just his memory of HEARING the shots (and not
from "time-stamping" actually being shot himself and matching that
event to any sounds he's also hearing).
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/741a872f58796bfe
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7b06a89bd4042363
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- I really think you need to do some research and thinking for
yourself, rather than relying on some computer animations that can be
used to create any scenario you set out to create.
DVP -- Do you REALLY believe that Dale Myers' animations are "fudged"
so far out of whack so as to make the Single-Bullet Theory a piece of
pure fiction? Really? Truly?
Mr. Myers' measurements and calculations are based on actual
blueprints of the TSBD, Dallas city survey maps of Dealey Plaza, the
original body draft of the 1961 Lincoln limousine (provided by the
limo builders themselves -- Hess & Eisenhardt), and of exacting
measurements (as much as can be discerned) based on the Zapruder Film.
You couldn't possibly GET a more detailed and exacting re-creation of
the assassination than what Dale K. Myers has accomplished. And the
SBT works perfectly given all these exacting measurements that were re-
created and re-constructed for his animation/model.
Why on Earth don't the big-talking CTers come up with an ALTERNATIVE
model to Myers' -- a "CT Version" if you please, that will PROVE Mr.
Myers has it all wrong?
I've yet to see ANY detailed type of re-creation (using high-tech
computer animations like Dale Myers has done) put forth by any
conspiracy advocates. Why not? Why hasn't this been done for the "CT"
side to prove the SBT is not possible?
IMO, the reason an exacting replica "model" hasn't been created by
CTers that PROVES the SBT to be wrong is because such an exacting
model CAN'T be created to prove such a thing. (Utilizing "exacting"
standards like Mr. Myers has done, that is.)
Sort of remarkable, IMO, that every single "computer model" ever
created of this sort that attempts to simulate the SBT are ones that
show the SBT to be a DOABLE act. All the way back to NOVA's 1988
computer simulation.**
** = It's "remarkable", that is, only IF the Single-Bullet Theory is,
in fact, "one of the grossest lies ever forced on the American
people" (per dialogue during the courtroom scene in Oliver Stone's
movie "JFK").
But based on Mr. Myers' detailed animation work, and also based on the
physical evidence in the case itself that is telling a reasonable
person that Bullet CE399 most certainly DID pass through the bodies of
both John Kennedy and John Connally on 11/22/63....I'd say that Mr.
Stone was all wet.
YMMV.
http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/intro.htm
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Do you really want us to believe only three shots allegedly
fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD really could have done all that
and left only the fragments found in the limo? Please explain in
detail with diagrams, if you don't mind.
DVP -- I don't really see why "diagrams" are necessarily required.
But, yes, of course that's what happened -- 3 shots; all coming from
Oswald's C2766 Carcano rifle; all fired from the 6th-Floor Sniper's
Nest in the TSBD; 2 hits; 1 miss. Period. .....
Shot #1.) Missed everybody in car; pieces of either the bullet and/or
concrete struck James Thomas Tague by the Underpass. (Bullet never
found or recovered, which isn't surprising, given the fact it went
wild.)
Shot #2.) The SBT shot. Bullet dropped out of JBC's thigh wound and
onto stretcher in Parkland Hospital.
Shot #3.) JFK Head Shot. ALL fragments are found FORWARD of JFK's
position (largest fragments in front seat of limo; some smaller
fragments found under Nellie Connally's jump seat), with the two large
fragments (logically) causing the windshield and chrome damage to the
Presidential limousine.
WHY would MORE fragments be found in the limo via the above scenario?
There would not have to be any additional fragments. Nor COULD there
have been very many more fragments given that scenario, since TWO of
the three bullets never "fragmented" in the limo at all.
-------------------------------------------
DVP -- The "plotters/planters" who did a lot of the dirty work and leg
work in this case of conspiracy (per the CTers) seemingly could gain
access to ANYPLACE connected with Oswald and all the assassination
scenes -- e.g., Parkland, the Neely St. Oswald home, the Paine home,
the Depository to "plant" bullet shells, etc.
So why didn't they somehow find a way to "plant" CE399 right inside
the limousine itself. Sounds impossible, of course. But,
realistically, many different actions (per the CT-Kooks) of these
"Supermen" plotters/schemers/cover-uppers were, in point of fact,
pretty much unrealistic, if not impossible too. So why not this?
Why not have a rogue Secret Service Agent, or one of the many SS look-
alikes, just drop that CE399 bullet right there in the limo by
Connally's jump seat during the initial confusion at the emergency
entrance at Parkland, to make SURE it would be connected with the JFK
case?
Just exactly HOW did the Parkland Planter know for certain WHERE to
plant CE399, so that it would definitely be both found and connected
properly to the JFK case? Did he ask somebody in the hall which
stretcher was Connally's?
But, somebody really needs to answer the even larger question (which
never has been fully and logically explained from a CT POV heretofore)
-- That being: Why did the conspirators feel the need to "plant" ANY
bullets in this case, when Oswald was going to be the #1 suspect
ANYWAY, what with Rifle C2766 being found on the 6th Floor?
This potentially-EXTRA (unneeded) bullet could only further muddy the
plot all to heck, because, at the time of 399's "planting", the
plotters could not possibly have known if all the bullets would be
recovered in the victims.
Does "planting" this bullet, which really is not needed at all (even
from a CT plot POV), sound the least bit logical, given the time it
was allegedly planted, sometime before 2:00 PM on 11/22/63?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- As for CE399 being planted at Parkland...why not? It was as
good a place as any. Once they had control of the primary crime scene
evidence, the limo and the body, which came very shortly after the
shooting, almost anything was possible.
DVP -- This brings up the point about the "type" of "conspiracies"
people believe in.
Do you believe that there were TWO "conspiracies", that were wholly
"separate" from one another (i.e., the shooting itself was pulled off
as one "conspiracy" by one team of plotters; and then the police and
Government people stepped up to the plate to "cover up" all the
evidence that led to any frontal shooters)?
Or do you think the U.S. Government and the Dallas Police were "in" on
the plot from the get-go? (Hard to keep everybody's own pet theories
straight.)
In the first "2-Plot" scenario, the "planting" of ANY evidence is
silly and nonsensical and very risky (without knowledge of KNOWING for
certain if ALL bullets were still in the bodies), because the shooters
could not have just ASSUMED that the Government and the police would
be stepping in and covering up things.
That second type of plot could be given the following designation ---
"The United States Government was involved from the get-go and knew
(before the first shot was fired) they would almost certainly have to
cover up quite a bit of evidence, because the shooting team consisted
of 2 or 3 or 4 gunmen, bullets from whom couldn't possibly in a
thousand years ever be ALL traced back to just one crazed gunman in
the Texas School Book Depository Building to the rear of President
Kennedy's automobile".
And via that second type of conspiracy, the planting of CE399 is
unneeded even more so. Because if the Government was ALREADY involved
and KNEW some "fudging" of physical evidence would be needed, then WHY
on Earth have somebody planting bullets on stretchers unnecessarily?
The Government people could have simply said (and made up from whole
cloth) the CE399 bullet and explained it easily by just claiming one
of their "inside" operatives "found" the bullet somewhere within
Parkland. But there would certainly be NO need at all for other people
(non-conspirators like Darrell Tomlinson) to see the bullet.
In fact, many/most CTers feel that this is exactly what HAS happened
in this case -- that is, the Government was just "making stuff up" as
they went along to suit their LN purposes. So why not with CE399 as
well?
In such a plot, NOT planting CE399 makes much more sense than planting
it and having non-plotters possibly see the bullet. I think everyone
should agree with me that it's certainly better to have FEWER than 3
bullets recovered than to have more than 3 possibly seen or recovered,
which would blow the plot right there from an LN perspective.
In ANY scenario, planting the bullet is simply foolish for the
plotters.
Another note re. the fact that no blood or tissue or clothing fibers
were found on bullet CE399.....
If this bullet was truly a "plant", and the plotters KNEW that tests
would be performed on this bullet (looking for blood, etc.) -- why
didn't they simply "fudge" or "fake" THAT evidence too?
Why didn't they have someone on the "Plotters' Payroll" (an
organization that seemingly has a cast of shady characters that never
runs dry) fake some "official"-looking report to the effect that
blood, tissue, and clothing fibers WERE, in fact, detected on the
bullet?
These guys seem to be able to tackle ANY roadblock and potential
problem that gets in their way. Why not "fake" this CE399 test too?
But, if the plotters somehow KNEW that such a "fake" report about the
blood and tissue could not be accomplished, this then further
illustrates the idiocy of the plotters by planting such a "clean"
bullet -- a bullet that they SURELY HAVE GOT TO REALIZE WILL BE TESTED
FOR BLOOD AND TRACE EVIDENCE AFTER BEING CONVENIENTLY "FOUND".
Just one more reason to place any "planting" of CE399 in the "Foolish
Beyond Belief" drawer.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- If you go to the trouble of diagramming you will see right
away that what you are supporting is unsupportable when compared with
the evidence and the Elm Street witnesses' accounts of what they saw
and heard during the shooting.
DVP -- "Unsupportable when compared with the evidence"? You must be
kidding of course! But, no, you're obviously not kidding.
If ANY position is "unsupportable when compared to the evidence" in
this case it is the "CT" side of the equation (ANY of the CTs in
fact).
The "evidence" in this case (the physical photos, X-rays, and
ballistic match-ups, etc.) spells no conspiracy, and just 3 shots from
one (rear) location (which, almost certainly, were fired by Lee Harvey
Oswald).
You're twisting the known evidence trail to suit your CT needs, quite
obviously, by totally discounting and distrusting virtually EVERYTHING
placed on the table as "evidence" by Official-dom.
But, unfortunately for you and all CTers, to quote my favorite
prosecutor Vincent T. Bugliosi -- "It's not quite that easy, ladies
and gentlemen. It's NOT quite that easy!"
CTers continue to rely on pure speculation and guesswork to solve this
case. But WHERE is the tangible, physical PROOF of conspiracy (beyond
the blanket CT beliefs that virtually EVERYTHING in this case was
tainted, manipulated, faked, and/or "planted" by faceless/nameless
conspirators of some ilk)?
Answer: There is no tangible, physical proof of conspiracy. And there
never has been.
Every official photo and X-ray and bullet in this case leads to these
conclusions: One shooter; ALL shots from the rear; and exactly three
shots fired. Even MOST of the admittedly-semi-unreliable earwitness
testimony leans toward (in fairly-large percentiles) THREE SHOTS AND
JUST ONE SHOOTING LOCATION FOR THESE SHOTS (that location being the
School Book Depository Building).
Even on their BEST SHOOTING DAY IMAGINABLE, I have a very difficult
time believing that ANY crackerjack shooting team could have had all
of this evidence go in their lone-patsy-implicating favor,
particularly during the chaotic first several hours after 12:30 PM,
when all of the news being reported to the world on LIVE television
and radio was indicating the likelihood of just ONE gunman, who fired
three shots from the Book Depository.
And when considering that most CTers believe in multiple gunmen
(firing from varying positions in Dealey Plaza), the likelihood of ALL
the evidence (especially the early first-hour reports) pointing to
JUST ONE KILLER becomes even more implausible.
Plus, there's the fact that these "conspirators" would have been
forced to deal with the undesirable (and unexpected) element of having
SOMEONE ELSE (Connally) being hit by a shot that was only meant for
the President.
If a conspiracy existed in this case, I think it's safe to say that
not only did these plotters get incredibly lucky -- but these
conspirators must have had some Devine Entity intervene to ensure
everything led people down the Oswald-Did-It-Alone path.
In my "real" world, this would simply not be possible -- given the
various complexities in this so-called "conspiracy".
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4b8dae7b150da043
eca...@tx.rr.com
One of your best posts..
I hope what's left of the
TSFH gang will *read* it.
Ed
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...