Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 9)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From November 2004,
February 2005, November 2006, December 2006, and March 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- He {DVP} doesn't know anything about
the law and the rules of evidence. He doesn't understand that once the
chain of possession is broken, the evidence is worthless.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- And I also know something else that no CTer
seems to wish to recognize or even remotely acknowledge the
possibility of, and that is: Even if every last scrap of evidence in
the JFK murder case IS "worthless" (which it isn't of course), that
fact STILL would not mean Lee Harvey Oswald DID NOT ACT ALONE on
11/22/63.
Even with some "mishandled" evidence, there is still a mountain of
indications to show Oswald murdered two people (JFK and J.D. Tippit),
with no evidence (not even of the "tainted" variety) leading toward
ANYBODY ELSE BUT OSWALD.
Naturally, per the pro-conspiracy kooks, this HAS to mean: "It was
designed that way -- it's a COVER-UP!!"
However, evidence is "mishandled" all the time, in many murder cases
all over the world. This is part of all things "human". Take the O.J.
Simpson case as an example. The LAPD did violate procedure (but to a
VERY TINY degree) in the O.J. case when collecting evidence. But does
THAT FACT ALONE mean Simpson DIDN'T butcher those two people in cold
blood? Obviously, it doesn't mean that.
But what did the Simpson defense 'Dream Team' do (upon seizing the
opportunity of seeing Criminalist Dennis Fung pick something up at the
crime scene without his gloves on)? They mushroomed that one tiny
little event into an argument that, from then on, NOTHING the LAPD did
was to be trusted! EVERYTHING they now did is tainted in some way and
should be treated as being "suspect" and not to be trusted.
This, of course, is total nonsense. Any amount of errors the LAPD
might have made still wouldn't change the FACT that O.J. Simpson's
blood was identified at the crime scene; plus the victims' blood was
inside Simpson's home and automobile. No amount of "bungling" could
have CHANGED the fact that Simpson was guilty (despite the ridiculous
verdict put out by the jury).
And, IMO, we can apply that same "bungling"/"mishandling" argument to
the JFK discussion as well. Any mishandling of certain evidence can
just as easily be reconciled with honest mistakes or just plain
stupidity in some instances (like not recording a single word of
Oswald's 12 hours of interrogations), rather than the automatic jump
to "it's a cover-up". And none of any such errors would still
necessarily (by default) eliminate Lee Oswald as a shooter -- or the
ONLY shooter.
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CTer -- Whatever he {Mr. Von Pein} can't answer he'll leave for
{Vincent} Bugliosi's book. That's Von Pein: let someone else do all
the work and then just agree with them.
DVP -- Well, the way I look at it....why settle for a Chevrolet (DVP)
when a Cadillac (Mr. Bugliosi) can be seen on the horizon?
~grin~ & ~wink~
http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring07/004525.htm
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CTer -- You talk about a bullet that blew apart into dust particles
and yet you claim one fragment was so large to make a dent in the
chrome strip the size of a large thumb print. You have no basis for
your claim.
DVP -- It was probably TWO fragments, in point of fact, that exited
the head in fairly-large form. So now you have DOUBLE the reason to
call me a fool, don't you?
I have "no basis" for my claim?? This declaration, of course, is way
off. There certainly IS "basis" for saying the front-seat fragments
are from the head shot -- or AT THE LEAST there is solid evidence
(irrevocable in fact) that the fragments were fired from Lee Harvey
Oswald's C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. We KNOW that for a fact.
Now, last I heard, there was just ONE shooting in Dealey Plaza on
November 22, 1963. So, unless you want to purport that the fragments
were deposited in the limo on yet a different occasion, then I'd
submit there is verifiable evidence to support the conclusion that the
front-seat fragments came from Rifle #C2766 at the time President
Kennedy was being hit by bullets and those fragments came (logically)
from the head shot.
Those front-seat fragments (one a "nose" section of a bullet from
Oswald's rifle and the other a "base" portion of a bullet from
Oswald's rifle) obviously were the remains of a Carcano/C2766 bullet
that HIT SOMETHING FIRST, in order to greatly damage that bullet
before the fragments ended up in the front part of the automobile.
And....
Since Oswald's rifle was located to the REAR of the President
throughout the entire shooting timeline....and since three bullet
shells from Oswald's gun were found in the southeast corner window on
the 6th Floor of the Book Depository....and since it would have been
virtually impossible for Oswald (or anyone else) to have directly hit
John B. Connally, the only other victim of gunfire in the car during
the shooting, with a shot coming from that corner window at the time
when Connally was hit by the ONE bullet that struck him that day
(meaning: the bullet that hit Connally HAD to have hit JFK first
before going into Connally's back, because JFK was between the
Depository gunman and Mr. Connally during the time when JBC was
hit)....this leaves ONLY the JFK head shot to account for the two
front-seat bullet fragments.
This analysis is certainly not akin to rocket science. It's just
ordinary "Occam's Razor"-like common sense when evaluating the entire
shooting scenario. Given the above facts that I just laid out, there
simply was nothing else that could have possibly caused the extreme
fragmentation of a bullet from Rifle #C2766 other than the head of
John F. Kennedy.
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DVP (November 26, 2004) -- Vince Bugliosi has no doubt researched the
very disturbing "BOH" {Back Of Head} aspect of the JFK case (in far
greater detail than probably anybody else in history). Which makes me
100% confident that a reasonable "LN" conclusion can be reached via
Mr. Bugliosi's persistence and unique brand of common sense and logic.
I'm quite sure that there will be a minimum of 37 different places in
Mr. Bugliosi's upcoming book that will cause me (the reader) to utter
to myself: "Why didn't I, or anybody else, think of that?"
It's common for VB's written material to elicit that sort of reaction
from readers; and his JFK book will be no different. Let's just hope
the majority of stubborn CTers have the "common sense" to at least
read Mr. Bugliosi's revelatory volume.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/450518c94e5e8ded
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CTer -- I believe we were talking about MC rounds hitting the steel
frame that the windshield sits in. Such a bullet will not penetrate
such steel. If you have documentation to the contrary, then post it
and we'll take a hard look at it.
DVP -- I wasn't referring to ONLY "MC" {Mannlicher-Carcano} bullets
doing "steel" damage. I was simply refuting your general claim that
ANY type bullet couldn't penetrate steel, which is what you previously
posted, and which is incorrect.
Plus: In a purely "CT" sense re. the chrome damage, isn't it the
contention of at least some (if not most) CTers that not ALL of the
weapons used on 11/22 were Mannlicher-Carcano rifles?
Also: Some CTers feel that the chrome damage to the limousine was due
to a missed shot. If it was a missed shot, it would have been
travelling full speed; and if it wasn't necessarily a Carcano bullet,
why couldn't it have conceivably been an armor-piercing type bullet
(which I assume weren't JUST invented in the 21st Century)?
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CTer -- I find it interesting that you would believe CE399 would
penetrate a piece of hardened steel, but you also have taken the
position that the same type of bullet would glance off a tree branch
rather than to penetrate it, thus striking the curb near James Tague.
Do you care to explain this?
DVP -- Sure. .... I really haven't the slightest idea whether a
Mannlicher-Carcano FMJ 6.5mm bullet (specifically) would/will go
completely through a piece of hard steel -- because my position re.
the JFK shooting NEVER places one of the three Oswald bullets in that
potential position to do such damage. So, perhaps one of the shots
WOULD have pierced the steel frame of the automobile IF one of the
shots had hit the steel uninterrupted in flight. But none did.
I contend that the limo damage (to the windshield and chrome frame)
was caused by fragments of the head shot, which were severely slowed
(and probably close to being "spent" by the time these fragments
reached the windshield area of the car). So, obviously, a severely-
slowed fragment such as this isn't going to "test" the "Will It
Penetrate Steel?" theory with regard to Oswald's ammunition.
My above contention isn't just a haphazard guess either. A person far
more qualified than I am to evaluate such matters testified in 1964 in
front of the Warren Commission, and he confirmed the above-mentioned
analysis re. the car's chrome damage. The man who verified this
information was FBI Special Agent Robert A. Frazier (a firearms
expert). Here's exactly what Mr. Frazier had to say (as he was being
questioned by the WC's Arlen Specter):
SPECTER -- "Now assume the same sequence with respect to exit velocity
from the point of the President's neck at the same rate of 1,772 to
1,798 feet per second, and assume still further that the whole bullet
had struck the metal framing which you have heretofore described and
identified. What effect would that have had on the metal framing?"
FRAZIER -- "It would have torn a hole in the chrome, penetrated the
framing both inside and outside of the car. I can only assume, since I
haven't tested the metal of that particular car, I would assume that
the bullet would completely penetrate both the chrome, the metal
supporting the chrome on the inside, and the body metal on the outside
which supports the windshield of the car."
SPECTER -- "Now, assume the same set of factors as to the exit
velocity from the President's neck. What effect would that bullet have
had on any other portion of the automobile which it might have struck
in the continuation of its flight?"
FRAZIER -- "In my opinion, it would have penetrated any other metal
surface and, of course, any upholstery surface depending on the nature
of the material as to how deep it would penetrate or how many
successive layers it may have penetrated."
SPECTER -- "Was there any evidence in any portion of the car that the
automobile was struck by a bullet which exited from the President's
neck under the circumstances which I have just asked you to assume?"
FRAZIER -- "No, sir; there was not."
SPECTER -- "And had there been any such evidence would your
examination of the automobile have uncovered such an indication or
such evidence?"
FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; I feel that it would have."
~~~~~~
The above testimony of FBI Agent Frazier spells total doom for the
conspiracy theorists who continue to disbelieve the Single-Bullet
Theory. For, based on Frazier's limo examination that revealed
absolutely NO DAMAGE to the car where damage most certainly would have
been if the bullet that exited President Kennedy's throat had struck
the vehicle's interior rather than a human victim inside the
limousine, the ONLY possible place that bullet could have gone is into
John Connally's body after coming out of the neck of JFK.
Hence, the SBT is the only reasonable and logical conclusion to reach
when examining all of the evidence. And it's also the only reasonable
scenario to embrace when focusing on the LACK of certain evidence that
SHOULD exist in this case if the SBT is not the way things happened on
Elm Street in November 1963:
E.g., the lack of limo damage (as previously detailed), the lack of
other bullets being found in the Presidential limousine or inside the
two victims, the lack of any other gunshot victims in the car besides
JFK & JBC, and the total lack of substantial injuries within John
Kennedy's neck and upper-back regions that could possibly have
accounted for TWO bullets failing to penetrate these regions of JFK's
body.*
* = And an anti-SBT theory requires those TWO non-transiting missiles
that somehow just stop on a dime inside JFK, even though no bony
structures were hit in the President's neck and back at all. Sound
very reasonable to anyone? Sure doesn't to me. But, then again, I'm
not a conspiracy kook either. ;)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e06a29392572c072
"Several factors make it clear that Kennedy and Connally WERE struck
by the same bullet. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of
any separate bullet hitting Connally." -- VINCENT T. BUGLIOSI
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CTer -- Maybe because he {Oswald} intended to steal the curtain rods
from Ruth Paine's garage.
DVP -- Nope. Better try re-working that "rod-stealing" adventure into
something a little more viable. Because the one on 11/21/63 never
happened. ......
VINCENT BUGLIOSI -- "Now you, in fact, DID have some curtain rods in
the garage, is that correct?"
RUTH PAINE -- "In the garage...yes."
MR. BUGLIOSI -- "After the assassination, they were still there."
MRS. PAINE -- "Yes, that's right."
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CTer -- The point is that Oswald can be made to look as if he is tied
to the JFK murder by authorities manipulating the evidence.
DVP -- Again with the crooked authorities, eh? Was there a decent,
honest cop on that whole force? Evidently not.
I'm sure glad I didn't live in Dallas, circa Nov. '63 -- for it seems
nobody was safe with that police force brim full of scheming, lying,
evidence-planting lowlifes as pictured by many a-CTer.
Was the DPD good at evicting penniless widows from one-room shanties
too? Prob'ly were. And did they make frequent trips to Parkland
Hospital merely to take the bolts off of all the wheelchairs? I
wouldn't put it past 'em. They weren't good for nothin' it
seems....except for framing innocent patsies and allowing murderers of
their fellow police officers to go scot-free. Damn bums.
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CTer -- Except that the bag he {Wesley Frazier} saw was too short to
hold the rifle.
DVP -- Ah, yes....I forgot....we're supposed to rely on Wes Frazier's
two-second glance at the package instead of relying on the "best
evidence", which would be the 38-inch bag itself WITH OSWALD'S RIGHT
PALMPRINT ON IT (perfectly corroborating Frazier's testimony re. LHO's
bag-handling technique of 11/22/63) being found in a place in the
Depository where additional "Oswald Is Guilty As Sin" evidence
resides.
Let's listen in to some verbiage uttered by Wesley Frazier in 1986,
shall we (just for kicks)?......
VINCE BUGLIOSI -- "Mr. Frazier, is it true that you paid hardly any
attention to this bag?"
WES FRAZIER -- "That is true."
MR. BUGLIOSI -- "So the bag could have been protruding out in front of
his {Lee Oswald's} body, and you wouldn't have been able to see it, is
that correct?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "That is true."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm
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CTer -- You WC defenders will latch onto ANYTHING and claim that it
proves Oswald's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Such as his leaving
his wedding ring in the cup.
DVP -- Yeah, the LNers wouldn't have ANY case at all if it weren't for
that incriminating "ring" thing. All of that other piddly stuff --
like bullets, shells, guns, prints, fibers, witnesses, no alibi,
another murder on 10th Street, and Oswald acting as guilty as Hitler
should always take a back seat to "The Ring". ~LOL~
A WC defender being accused of "latching onto anything" by a CTer is
cause for a good-sized belly-laugh indeed. (Can you say: "Black Dog
Man"....or "Z-Film Hoax"....or "Multi-Gun Patsy Plot"....or "Body-
Altering Surgery"? Now THAT'S "latching".)
~~~~~~
"If Lee Harvey Oswald had nothing to do with President Kennedy's
assassination and was framed....this otherwise independent and defiant
would-be revolutionary, who disliked taking orders from anyone, turned
out to be the most willing and cooperative frame-ee in the history of
mankind!! Because the evidence of his guilt is so monumental, that he
could have just as well gone around with a large sign on his back
declaring in bold letters 'I Just Murdered President John F.
Kennedy'!!" -- VINCE BUGLIOSI
~~~~~~
"Oswald, from his own lips, TOLD us he was guilty....he told us he was
guilty....almost the same as if he had said 'I murdered President
Kennedy'....he told us. How did he tell us? Well, the lies he told,
one after another, showed an UNMISTAKABLE consciousness of guilt.
"If Oswald were innocent, why did he find it necessary to deny
purchasing that Carcano rifle from the Klein's store in Chicago? Why
did he even deny owning any rifle at all? Why did he find it necessary
to do that if he's innocent?" -- VINCE BUGLIOSI
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ea04b9e6141f0098
aeffects
Davie cutting and pasting the same old - same old won't get you past
the 35 questions (that have stopped the Lone Nutter's, er Lone
Neuter's C-O-L-D) you, and other Nutter cowards desperately run
from.... Help us out here...You've got plenty of time before the
daBugliosi book goes down in flames
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