JFK WAS trying to cough up a bullet
Gil Jesus
225-237 show Kennedy pulling his tie away with his left hand and
cupping his right hand over his mouth. He then moves his head FORWARD,
a normal reaction when one is trying to dislodge something caught in
the throat from a seated position.
He only does this once, then starts to slump forward and to his left.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3uH7FHjCeQ
At first I thought that in addition to this he was trying to push the
bullet in with the thumb of the left hand while trying to cough it
up.
But upon closer observation, it appears that his left hand was
pulling his tie towards Jackie, perhaps to get her attention.
At no time did I ever remotely suggest that he was "trying to dig it
out with his thumb", as asserted by the LN idiots. I challenge them to
site my posting that said such nonsense.
It is obvious, however, that his right hand is cupped over his mouth,
again a normal gesture for someone trying to dislodge something from
his/her throat.
The significance of this observation is that if there was a bullet
lodged in the throat, it would once and for all destroy the Single
Bullsh*t Theory, for if a bullet was lodged in the throat, it could
not have hit Governor Connally.
If it were lodged in the throat, then the only bullet wound in the
throat HAD to have been an entry wound, unless of course, the
President tried to swallow a bullet sometime during the 9/10ths of a
second he was behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.
And if a bullet had been lodged in the throat, it would explain why
there was no exit wound, why the throat wound was enlarged after the
body left Dallas (to remove a bullet that had not exited), and would
verify ALL of the Parkland witnesses' descriptions of the throat wound
as a wound of entry.
YoHarvey
CT's? Read it and cry. He's one of your own!!!
Gil Jesus
YoHarvey
> YOYO..view the video link and YOU cry...LOL
YOYO..view the video link and YOU cry...LOL
Notice the nervous "LOL". That is indicative of a
phony! Jesus knows it, and I know it!!
Gil Jesus
and haven't had an idea in years. You probably won't go to the video
link because you're afraid of seeing the truth.
I'm not nervous. I know what I got.
But if you have a better explanation of what Kennedy is doing in the
car for frames 225-237, I'm sure there are lots of people out there
like me who'd love to hear it.
So explain away.
Gil Jesus
I invite anyone, friends or foes, to view my video and if I am wrong,
then give us your explanation of what JFK is doing in the car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3uH7FHjCeQ
Sincerely, Gil Jesus.
YoHarvey
>
> - Show quoted text -
But if you have a better explanation of what Kennedy is doing in the
car for frames 225-237, I'm sure there are lots of people out there
like me who'd love to hear it.
The above statement IS THE ESSENCE OF GIL JESUS. In his own words.
This is how ignorant and uneducated the man is. He is SPECULATING on
what JFK is doing at 225-237. In Gil Jesus's own demented mind THIS
IS
PROOF TO HIM. Not speculation, PROOF! To quote Gerald Posner:
CASE CLOSED. And by the way, this is after his 41 years of what he
calls RESEARCH. How frightening is this guy??? In addition, this
sad excuse for a researcher then ask the members of this forum to
speculate right along with him with the following statement:
I invite anyone, friends or foes, to view my video and if I am wrong,
then give us your explanation of what JFK is doing in the car.
Allow me to repeat this: Gil Jesus has studied this assassination
for 41 years and is asking US to speculate with him. Let's hope
he has fathered no children.
Gil Jesus
O-T-H-I-N-G.
It figures, really. You complain that I don't answer my posts, then
you have nothing to debate. It doesn't surprise me. I produce evidence
that supports my claim, but you have nothing. It's all just criticism
for you. It proves my point.
You really don't have a clue.
I gave you the opportunity to make a fool out of me, but you failed.
This is why nobody takes you seriously. All bark and no bite.
When it comes time to bring home the bacon, you can't find the butcher
shop.
Go home and cry. I'm done playing with you little man.
YoHarvey
Based on the above comment by Gil Jesus, he is expecting me to
SPECULATE on what JFK is doing at ZAP 225-237. As I've shown,
speculation is all Jesus has, nothing more.....AND HE KNOWS IT.
What Jesus apparently is to foolish to realize is, he is a laughing
stock to those in the research community. Simply go to the
Education Forum and read the comments for yourselves.
Notice, Jesus OFFERS NO PROOF OF WHAT JFK IS doing
at ZAP 225-237. What Jesus is doing is speculating because
JESUS is your absolutely perfect CT. As we know, CT's NEVER
require proof, ever! I am totally convinced the best part of Jesus
is perhaps still running down his old mans leg.
cdddraftsman
Quote Gil :
" It is my opinion, based on the position of his hands,
that a bullet entered the throat and did not exit, that
it instead was lodged in his throat and that he used
the thumb of his right hand (clenched in a fist with
the thumb open) to try to push it in while using
his left hand cupped over his mouth in order
to cough it up . "
Gil Jesus
Lousy said :
Quote Gil :
" It is my opinion, based on the position of his hands, that a bullet
entered the throat and did not exit, that it instead was lodged in his
throat and that he used
the thumb of his right hand (clenched in a fist with the thumb open)
to try to push it in while using his left hand cupped over his mouth
in order to cough it up . "
------------------------------------------------------
And I wrote in this day :
At first I thought that in addition to this he was trying to push
the bullet in with the thumb of the left hand while trying to cough it
up. But upon closer observation, it appears that his left hand was
pulling his tie towards Jackie, perhaps to get her attention.
------------------------------------------------------
So what's your point, Lousy ? I admitted what I said. I admitted that
I was wrong about the left hand. I still believe that the bullet
entered from the front and JFK was trying to cough it up. I've
produced video proof to support my contention. I never said, as you
claimed ( or was it your bud YOYO -- I just can't tell one a**hole
from another ), that "he tried to dig it out with his thumb". That
part's a lie.
Did you look at my video ? I don't think you did, or you'd see it for
yourself. Or do you have an explanation of what JFK is doing between
frames 225 and 237 ?
I'm calling you out bitch. If you got something tell us what it is,
otherwise go home and cry like that little girl YOYO, who just
couldn't deal with this new discovery. She's probably considering a
new name change right about now.
YoHarvey
You produced video???????????????? Gee, I thought Zapruder
produced the video!! Another major breakthrough. Gil Jesus
took the 11/22 video, NOT Abraham Zapruder. This is a major,
major breakthough! Oh, and by the way, be sure and take a peek
at Gil's video. He looks older than Rossley and Nutsacks is in
his 70's! Man, I've seen better heads on beer!! :-)
Gil Jesus
you have produced NOTHING to disprove my contention that a bullet
lodged in the throat.
True, Zapruder produced the video of the assassination. But I produced
the homemade video on that link explaining my theory and what was
happening to JFK. Zapruder did not. Your continued irate responses to
my postings are not normal for a civilized person. Go take a valium
and lie down. It's over. You lost.
YoHarvey
Gil, Gil, Gil, I know we have had this conversation before and
realizing
you're old I'll repeat this one more time for you....please read
slowly.
The BURDEN OF PROOF rests with YOU, not me! This is the basis
of research and the scientific method. Why does this escape you?
You claim to have "researched" this assassination for 41 years, yet
with each posting you make a larger fool of yourself. There can only
be so many explanations. One: You're simply dumb. Two: You
have a learning disorder. Three: You underestimate the members
of this forum who don't buy your crazy speculation and conjecture.
I personally believe that your lack of formal education doesn't allow
you to think as a researcher must. Gil? Kiss your wife goodnight;
it's lights out!!
tomnln
When are you gonna Visit me like you Said???
Isn't your word good at ANYTHING?
WHO is Yo(Momma)Harvey?>>> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/baileynme.htm
Turns out that he's just another Common Coward Criminal with several
Aliases.
"YoHarvey" <bail...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173130968....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"YoHarvey" <bail...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173132705....@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
================================================================
> Allow me to repeat this: Gil Jesus has studied this assassination
> for 41 years and is asking US to speculate with him. Let's hope
> he has fathered no children.
Word has it that he Fathered YOUR children.
We all know that you sub-contracted the job out in the Hood.
Something about only messing with kids.
==============================================================
tomnln
SBT was a THEORY
Back/Throat wounds were THEORIES.
NOT to mention THESE Felonies.
http://whokilledjfk.net/spy.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/altgens.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/zapruder%20film.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/horne__report.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/autopsy.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/characters.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/RACE%20TO%20TSBD.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/croft_photo_with_anaylisis.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/mexcity.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/Walker.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/Rifle.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/single_bullet.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/media_page.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/Lattimer.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/warren.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/Evid%20Tamp.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/videopg.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/AUDIO%20PAGE.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/reasonable.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/VEITNAM.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/CIA.htm
"YoHarvey" <bail...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173133680....@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
Why don't you cough up those 7 little boys whackers you have inn YOUR
throat?
ORRRRRRRRRRRR,
Address these>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/spy.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/tramps.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/altgens.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/zapruder%20film.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/horne__report.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/autopsy.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/characters.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/RACE%20TO%20TSBD.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/croft_photo_with_anaylisis.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/mexcity.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/Walker.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/Rifle.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/single_bullet.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/media_page.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/Lattimer.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/warren.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/Evid%20Tamp.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/videopg.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/AUDIO%20PAGE.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/reasonable.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/VEITNAM.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/CIA.htm
"cdddraftsman" <cdddra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1173136012.9...@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
Yo(Momma)Harvey's chin is an Interstate Rest Stop For Truckers NUTSACKS.
ALL 100,000 of them.
HERE is Yo(Momma)Harvey>>> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/baileynme.htm
"YoHarvey" <bail...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173138896.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
he spends his Life on Interstate I_80 at those Truckers Rest STARTS.
100.000 TRUCKERS USE HIS CHIN AS A REST STOP FOR THEIR NUTSACKS.
Maybe he'll visit me when he gets a AIDS Dr's Visit Break.
"YoHarvey" <bail...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173141671.6...@64g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
Must've been from a water pistol or a BB gun, huh? Because that shot
caused no substantial damage INSIDE JFK's body at all. Amazing, huh?
>>> "JFK was hit in the front by those two shots the WCR said were only from the rear--and thereby only from LHO--who was one of the lousiest shots the Marines ever had on the shooting line!" <<<
Did the UPPER-BACK shot hit him from the front too? There's a wild
bullet indeed.
And......
VINCENT BUGLIOSI -- "Mr. Delgado, I believe you testified before the
Warren Commission, that on the rifle range Oswald was kind of a joke,
a pretty big joke."
NELSON DELGADO (served with Oswald in Marine Corps) -- "Yes, he was."
BUGLIOSI -- "You're aware that at the time Oswald was doing poorly on
the range, he was about to be released from the Marines, is that
correct?"
DELGADO -- "Yes, he was."
BUGLIOSI -- "Are you aware that in 1956, when Oswald first joined the
Marines, and was going through Basic Training, he fired a 212 on the
rifle range with an M-1 rifle, which made him a 'sharpshooter' at that
time -- are you aware of that?"
DELGADO -- "Yes."
BUGLIOSI -- "Given the fact that Oswald was about to get out of the
Marines when he was in your unit, and the fact that he showed no
interest in firing on the range -- you don't attribute his poor
showing on the range to his being a poor shot?"
DELGADO -- "No."
BUGLIOSI -- "He could have done better, you felt, if he tried?"
DELGADO -- "Certainly."
>>> "This only goes to show LHO was a 'plant' (i.e., patsy)..." <<<
No...it only goes to show that you (a kook) will believe ANYTHING
except the official evidence that's still on the table today, which
all points to ONLY shots from the rear and only shots from LHO's gun.
That's what it shows, Mr. Kook.
~~~~~
"Several factors make it clear that Kennedy and Connally WERE struck
by the same bullet. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of
any separate bullet hitting Connally." -- Vince Bugliosi
~~~~~
"If Lee Harvey Oswald had nothing to do with President Kennedy's
assassination and was framed....this otherwise independent and defiant
would-be revolutionary, who disliked taking orders from anyone, turned
out to be the most willing and cooperative frame-ee in the history of
mankind!! Because the evidence of his guilt is so monumental, that he
could have just as well gone around with a large sign on his back
declaring in bold letters 'I Just Murdered President John F.
Kennedy'!!!" -- VB
Gil Jesus
David Von Pein
CONTINUE to try to cough the damn thing up in the later Z-Film frames?
He supposedly only cared about "coughing up" the bullet in those few
selected Z-Frames? But in the later frames, there's no "lunging" or
"gagging" or "coughing" motions. Why?
Do you think Kennedy DID cough up the actual missile (and the bullet
never was found somehow)?
If JFK still had that bullet lodged in his throat at Parkland....why
do we see the very short "cough then stop" action of JFK (per your CT
interpretation)?
In short....the "coughing" theory is pure crap...without a scrap of
hard evidence to support it. No bullet. No damage inside Kennedy's
throat that would account for a rifle bullet just stopping in his
throat and not continuing its flight path.
And:
No gunman located in any location where such a frontal throat shot
could have come from. How could "Badge Man" have caused this wound? Or
was TUM responsible with his rain-shielding device?
BTW....the "coughing" theory is nothing new. Bill Miller at Lancer
(and probably others before him) were postulating this theory several
years ago (as Gil must know as well). Here's a 2004 example:
David Von Pein
Plus, I always thought most CTers (including the likes of Oliver Stone
and Jim Garrison in the movie "JFK") thought that JFK's "lunge"
forward was due to a separate bullet hitting Kennedy in the
BACK...thus, it wasn't associated with the "cough" or the frontal shot
in the throat.
So many theories...so little fact in any of them.
One "cough"...and then nothing. Yeah, let's go with that theory (until
the next one shows up):
David Von Pein
Gil Jesus
Gil Jesus
have anything, or are you just another hit and run bullshit artist ?
I put my opinion out there. I know it makes me a target. Do you have
the balls to be a target ? Let's hear yours.
What's he doing in the car ?
David Von Pein
Oh, goodie. We're going to play the fun game called -- "I FORGOT WHAT
YOUR SCENARIO IS--TELL ME FOR THE 405TH TIME PLEASE".
Nice.
Gil knows damn well what the LN scenario is regarding JFK's movements
in the car (post-Z224). ....
Kennedy hit in the back by Bullet CE399 at Z224. Bullet exits the
throat.
Kennedy begins to react to being hit by Bullet CE399 at Z225 (open
mouth).
Kennedy begins to move hands/arms up toward the place where Bullet
CE399 exited (throat) at Z226.
>>> "What's he doing in the car?" <<<
Reacting to Bullet CE399, which has just gone clean through his back
and neck at Z224. What else?
MARK VII.
BTW...Care to answer my prior question -- WHY DOESN'T KENNEDY
*CONTINUE* TO "COUGH" IN THE LATER Z-FRAMES IF THE BULLET IS *STILL*
LODGED IN HIS THROAT JUST BEFORE THE Z313 HEAD SHOT?
Do you have the balls to be a target, GJ? Or are you just another hit-
and-run CT bullshit artist who had a "brainstorm" idea one day and ran
full-speed toward the Conspiracy Endzone with it? (But, of course, as
I mentioned previously as well, this idea is not new at all....the
"cough" conjecture was purported many years ago. Did you forget?)
YoHarvey
Let's see, Jesus's theory is number 22, 357 on the CT scoreboard. How
shall
we rate it? Well, I for one give it a 2 for orginality.
Presentation? a 1. Ability
to "sell" his idea in a coherent and comprehensive manner? 0! Gil
Jesus,
as usual strikes out again!!
David Von Pein
years ago.....
tomnln
I'll beat the shit outta you with Evidence/Testimony.
I'll beat the shit outta you with tradi9ng insults
Take your Pick
THEN, you can goback to being an Interstate Plumber.
(cleaning Everyone's Pipes)
"tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:r07Hh.7393$zJ1....@newsfe24.lga...
cdddraftsman
I always wondered about what that cox.net meant in his
e-mail address ..........................tl
On Mar 7, 12:23 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> C'MON you Lying Criminal'
>
> I'll beat the shit outta you with Evidence/Testimony.
> I'll beat the shit outta you with tradi9ng insults
>
> Take your Pick
>
> THEN, you can goback to being an Interstate Plumber.
> (cleaning Everyone's Pipes)
>
> "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:r07Hh.7393$zJ1....@newsfe24.lga...
>
>
>
> > The reason Yo(Momma)Harvey never kept his word to visit me is because
> > he spends his Life on Interstate I_80 at those Truckers Rest STARTS.
>
> > 100.000 TRUCKERS USE HIS CHIN AS A REST STOP FOR THEIR NUTSACKS.
>
> > Maybe he'll visit me when he gets a AIDS Dr's Visit Break.
>
> > "YoHarvey" <bailey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> it's lights out!!- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
It means you're a Lyin, Faggot, Coward & a Criminal.
It's all HERE>>> http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tom_lowery.htm
ALL in your own words.
Do have today off from your I-8- assignment?
Wanna address official records?>>>
The following are official records Lousy Refuses to address.
news:1173299669....@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Gil Jesus
> Reacting to Bullet CE399, which has just gone clean through his back
> and neck at Z224. What else?
> BTW...Care to answer my prior question -- WHY DOESN'T KENNEDY
> *CONTINUE* TO "COUGH" IN THE LATER Z-FRAMES IF THE BULLET IS *STILL*
> LODGED IN HIS THROAT JUST BEFORE THE Z313 HEAD SHOT?
Because from the time he is hit in the throat at Z224 (as you claim --
I do agree with that) until he is shot in the head at Z313 is 89
frames, David.
That's about 4.8 seconds.
How many times would the man have to cough in 4.8 seconds to convince
you that he had an airway obstruction ?
David Von Pein
At least one more time, that's for sure.
BTW, Gil, why have you "blocked" me from commenting on your YouTube
video at that website (even though you specifically ASKED me to
reply)?
Just curious.
Cliff
> Gil.....If JFK was trying to "coughup" abullet, why then doesn't he
> CONTINUE to try tocoughthe damn thingupin the later Z-Film frames?
He was paralyzed.
Charles Senseney developed blood soluble
rounds for the CIA about the size of a .22
(or bigger depending on the size of the target)
designed to paralyze the target in 2 seconds.
Gil's analysis is consistent with a shot circa
Z199 that left JFK paralyzed after Z237.
This matches the x-ray wherein the following
damage is noted: bruised lung tip, hairline
fracture of the tip of the right T1 transverse
process, and the subcutaneous air-pocket
overlaying C7 and T1.
>
> He supposedly only cared about "coughingup" thebulletin those few
> selected Z-Frames? But in the later frames, there's no "lunging" or
> "gagging" or "coughing" motions. Why?
See above.
>
> Do you think Kennedy DIDcoughupthe actual missile (and thebullet
> never was found somehow)?
Blood soluble. Exactly what the autopsists
and FBI men thought likely the night of the
autopsy before they heard about CE399.
How did they hear about CE399 in the first
place?
FBI SA James Sibert called the FBI Lab
to inquire about the existence of blood
soluble rounds.
This scenario fits the preponderance of
evidence.
>
> If JFK still had thatbulletlodged in his throat at Parkland....why
> do we see the very short "coughthen stop" action of JFK (per your CT
> interpretation)?
>
> In short....the "coughing" theory is pure crap...without a scrap of
> hard evidence to support it. Nobullet. No damage inside Kennedy's
> throat that would account for a riflebulletjust stopping in his
> throat and not continuing its flight path.
Nonsense. The damage on the x-ray
perfectly matches this scenario.
>
> And:
>
> No gunman located in any location where such a frontal throat shot
> could have come from. How could "Badge Man" have caused this wound? Or
> was TUM responsible with his rain-shielding device?
Umbrella Man was Louis Witt making an
anti-Kennedy demonstration with his silly
umbrella -- or so I've concluded.
Black Dog Man at Z199 was using a
weapon fabricated by Mitch WerBell,
or so I'd speculate.
Cliff Varnell
>
> BTW....the "coughing" theory is nothing new. Bill Miller at Lancer
> (and probably others before him) were postulating this theory several
> years ago (as Gil must know as well). Here's a 2004 example:
>
> http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&to...
David Von Pein
Sounds to me like your scenario is ALSO perfectly consistent with what
the autopsy report states and what all the autopsy doctors said --
i.e., a bullet went clean through JFK.
In reality, the varying "JFK arm-raising" scenarios that have been
guessed at over the years are completely immaterial. The main point
is: JFK is reacting to having just been shot.
Cliff
> Cliff,
>
> Sounds to me like your scenario is ALSO perfectly consistent with what
> the autopsy report states and what all the autopsy doctors said --
> i.e., a bullet went clean through JFK.
That's not what all the autopsy doctors said.
They probed the wound and found no transit.
The Magic Bullet scenario was contrived
and dictated to the autopsists by those
directing the cover-up.
>
> In reality, the varying "JFK arm-raising" scenarios that have been
> guessed at over the years are completely immaterial. The main point
> is: JFK is reacting to having just been shot.
Shot in the throat from the front by a
non-transiting blood soluble round that
left JFK paralyzed in two seconds.
Here's the link for Senseney's Senate
testimony.
Here's some background on the man who,
I'd speculate, fabricated the weapon.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwerbell.htm
Gil's analysis is spot on.
Cliff Varnell
David Von Pein
Bullshit.
The SBT is by far the best scenario for the JFK/JBC wounding. No other
scenario comes even close in the "non-laughable" department (not to
mention the "bullets" and "other evidence" departments to boot).
More:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0b30398a449c05b7
>>> "Gil's analysis is spot on." <<<
Gil's analysis is isolated CTer bullshit. As usual.
And it's not Gil's analysis anyway. "The Cough" had been theorized
years earlier, as you (cliff) should know, being a Lancer member,
where Bill Miller hangs out on occasion.....
Cliff
> >>> "The Magic Bullet scenario was contrived and dictated to the autopsists by those directing the cover-up." <<<
>
> Bullshit.
>
> The SBT is by far the best scenario for the JFK/JBC wounding.
Physically impossible.
The holes in the clothes are too low.
The motorcade photos show the jacket
DROPPED in Dealey Plaza, and it was not
significantly elevated at the time of the
shooting.
Here's JFK on Main St: (left photo)
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/sbt/tkoap.jpg
No visible shirt collar.
Here's the Jefferies film on Main St.
http://video.jfk.org/George_Jefferies_film.wmv
Again, no visible shirt collar.
Here's JFK on Elm St.
http://www.jfk-online.com/Towner.mpg
Shirt collar highly visible.
Shirt collar highly visible at Z186 in
the Betzner #3 photo:
http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri4/Betzner_Large.jpg
Clearly, the jacket DROPPED in Dealey.
This readily observed fact establishes
4+ shots fired, and thus conspiracy.
> No other
> scenario comes even close in the "non-laughable" department (not to
> mention the "bullets" and "other evidence" departments to boot).
>
> More:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0b30398a449c05b7
>
> >>> "Gil's analysis is spot on." <<<
>
> Gil's analysis is isolated CTer bullshit. As usual.
>
> And it's not Gil's analysis anyway. "The Cough" had been theorized
> years earlier, as you (cliff) should know, being a Lancer member,
> where Bill Miller hangs out on occasion.....
I inadvertently shut myself out of Lancer
about 5 years ago, and lazy sod that I am
I haven't gotten my act together there.
To whomever goes the credit, the credit
is deserved.
I find it interesting that you scoff at a
scenario the autopsists themselves
posited the night of the autopsy.
Cliff Varnell
>
> http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&to...
David Von Pein
<yawn>
Great, the "Clothes Trump The Back-Wound Entry Location" shit again.
Lovely.
More below (so I don't have to write all of this stuff over, yet
again):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/1d9fb8a41b867da9
>>> "To whomever goes the credit {FOR "THE COUGH"}, the credit is deserved." <<<
<chuckle>
It's isolated subjectivism, Cliff. Nothing more. Gil (and Miller)
don't go BEYOND "The Cough", to explore any alternate possible
scenarios/conclusions. And those who posit such crap re. the throat
wound being caused by a separate bullet fail to ever to answer the
logical questions of "How?" and "From where did this shot come?" and
"Why didn't this bullet exit the other side?".
That last question, of course, DOUBLES itself when a proposed SEPARATE
back shot is contemplated and proposed as FACT. It's double the "No
transit" absurdity.
Plus: Did it ever occur to Gil that even if JFK was coughing, a thru-&-
thru transiting bullet just MIGHT have caused the same type of
reaction. A bullet has positively passed through that trachea; whether
it was GOING IN or COMING OUT. Why couldn't a "cough" sensation be
achieved via an EXITING bullet passing THROUGH Kennedy's neck? Should
that possibility be totally discounted?
But as long as "The Cough" (via a FRONTAL shot) convinces the CT
isolationists...everything is copacetic I guess. Go figure. (I can't.)
>>> "I find it interesting that you scoff at a scenario the autopsists themselves posited the night of the autopsy." <<<
I didn't realize H,F,&B thought that JFK was attempting to "cough up"
a bullet. Where are you getting that info?
Or are you merely saying the docs posited a scenario where the back
bullet dropped out of Kennedy?
Sure, they considered that...for a short time; until 11/23, when they
came across the "best evidence" for a transiting bullet --
confirmation from Perry, which, granted, SHOULD have definitely been
confirmed on the night of 11/22 when JFK was still on the slab; but
hindsight is almost always 20/20, isn't it?
David Von Pein
The clusterfuck statement was spot-on too. :)
I, like Chuck, would also like to know why on Earth the assassins
would waste time with non-lethal low-velocity shots into the victim,
when a hit in the head right away would suffice?
Were they trying to warn JFK & the SS before "The Big One" was fired
several seconds later?
That type of CT scenario is made all the more foolish and idiotic
within the confines of a "LET'S BLAME ALL OF THIS ON LEE HARVEY
OSWALD" Patsy Plot as well.
Could these boobs have BEEN any more reckless?
Clusterfuck! I love it!
aeffects
I'm sure you do! You certainly need something after the drubbing the
Neuter's took this weekend ... David, How are you going to defend
daBugliosi's book when You and Eddie and the rest of the *snookum's*
were decimated so? In one weekend, on this USNET board you set back
the SBT 20 years....
You've given me pause to think, a few of you Nutter guys are Cter's
dressed in drag. Oh well.....
Nutter's are getting a roadmap though, use it wisely!
eca...@tx.rr.com
I honestly missed your posts although
the incomparable DVP, and Bud, and TL,
YoHarvey, et al have done stellar jobs..
Regards, Ed
On Mar 19, 12:12 am, "chuck schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote:
> >http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&to...
>
> Funny that Cliff has a hard time wrapping his mind around the utterly
> sensible and logical and TESTED SBT but has no problem in believing in
> a blood soluble round of some sort.
>
> Cliff:
>
> You demonstrate an utter lack of common sense on this issue. I know
> it's a pet theory, like the shirt collar thing you endlessly debate
> Chad Z on, but c'mon, Cliff!
>
> Wasn't the "blood soluble round", as described by Senseney, designed
> to leave no traces of toxins in the victim...not disappear ENTIRELY?
> By the way, his Church testimony specifically states that he was
> unaware that this technology had been modified to be used on
> humans...just dogs.
>
> Unless you think someone fired a soap-bubble at JFK, you are sunk.
> IOW, something fired at JFK from the knoll or wherever has to have
> some mass to be accurate. The question is this:
>
> If he was struck in the throat from the side or in front of the limo,
> where did these fragments go? The so-called blood soluble round needs
> to be encased in some sort of strong aerodynamically shaped material
> to travel through the air accurately and strike its intended target.
>
> If you are saying that the entire round was designed to dissolve in
> mere seconds, I'd like to know what specific tests have you done to
> buttress your theory.
>
> Also, if the conspiracy was so big, why not just shoot him in the darn
> head from the knoll without worrying about "blood soluble rounds" and
> whatnot.
>
> It's another example of an extremely complex and risky added layer of
> possible problems (what if the blood soluble round had hit Jackie?)
> to an assassination already occurring in broad daylight, in front of
> hundreds of witnesses, many with cameras, surrounded by cops, SS
> agents, the national press, etc.
>
> What a clusterf--- of silly, clouded thinking!- Hide quoted text -
David Von Pein
were decimated so?" <<<
Once more, we're treated to the "topsy-turvy, everything-is-opposite-
from-reality" world of a CT-Kook.
Mr. Healy actually is purporting that the LN case took a "drubbing" in
the last few days. If he truly thinks that, he's in need of Nurse
Ratched too (just like Walter).
Even Mr. Ricland admits he took a beating on his silly points. Every
single point was obliterated by pro-LN counterpoints.
Better stop using that funny amusement-park mirror, Dave. It's warping
your perspective (even more).
Nice try though, David, at attempting to wipe out the A-Bomb LNers
dropped on the silly CTers this weekend by merely ignoring the bomb's
blast and saying it never was dropped at all.
Cliff
> Damn...that was good Chuck. Really good.
>
> The clusterfuck statement was spot-on too. :)
>
> I, like Chuck, would also like to know why on Earth the assassins
> would waste time with non-lethal low-velocity shots into the victim,
> when a hit in the head right away would suffice?
Because a first-shot/kill-shot was not 100%
guaranteed.
JFK was a former military man.
What if nervous shooters (committing
murder and high treason) merely winged
JFK and he ducked down?
I bet Jackie would have thrown herself
over him.
The plotters HAD to allow for that contingency.
These guys took no chances.
They didn't have to. They needed
to hit JFK in some place that would
pre-occupy him for the 2 seconds
for the blood soluble paralytic to take
effect.
They shot him in the throat. That
held him up for the two seconds,
trying to cough the damage out of
his throat.
This scenario matches the x-ray and
the medical witnesses and, thanks
to Gil Jesus' analysis, we can see JFK
try to cough out what had just passed
into his neck -- and then obvious
paralysis two seconds later.
That set him up for the head shot.
Turkey shoot.
The real irony here, David, is that this
scenario, which you call "foolish and idiotic,"
was the preliminary conclusion of the very
autopsists upon whose testimony you base
your case.
Sibert testified to "the general sense"
among the autopsists that JFK had
been struck with blood soluble rounds.
The Zapruder film confirms JFK's paralysis,
his stopping of the coughing two seconds
after Z199-200.
It's plain as day.
Cliff Varnell
Cliff
> Chuck I'm really glad to see you back..
> I honestly missed your posts although
> the incomparable DVP, and Bud, and TL,
> YoHarvey, et al have done stellar jobs..
>
> Regards, Ed
Circle the wagons boys!
Jacket up on Main St...
http://video.jfk.org/George_Jefferies_film.wmv
As per Posner's SBT.
Jacket down on Elm St...
http://www.jfk-online.com/Towner.mpg
Four-plus shots, conspiracy.
How many LNers does it take
to screw in a light bulb?
None of 'em. They all deny it exists.
Cliff
> On Mar 5, 5:19 pm, "Gil Jesus" <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > So, YOYO, you're answer is that you have nothing. You have nothing. N-
> > O-T-H-I-N-G.
>
> > It figures, really. You complain that I don't answer my posts, then
> > you have nothing to debate. It doesn't surprise me. I produce evidence
> > that supports my claim, but you have nothing. It's all just criticism
> > for you. It proves my point.
>
> > You really don't have a clue.
>
> > I gave you the opportunity to make a fool out of me, but you failed.
> > This is why nobody takes you seriously. All bark and no bite.
>
> > When it comes time to bring home the bacon, you can't find the butcher
> > shop.
>
> > Go home and cry. I'm done playing with you little man.
>
> I gave you the opportunity to make a fool out of me, but you failed.
>
> > This is why nobody takes you seriously. All bark and no bite.
>
> Based on the above comment by Gil Jesus, he is expecting me to
> SPECULATE on what JFK is doing at ZAP 225-237. As I've shown,
> speculation is all Jesus has, nothing more.....AND HE KNOWS IT.
> What Jesus apparently is to foolish to realize is, he is a laughing
> stock to those in the research community. Simply go to the
> Education Forum and read the comments for yourselves.
Go ahead.
The preponderance of evidence powerfully
corroborates both Gil's analysis and the
preliminary "general sense" by the
autopsists that the wounds (yes, they
knew about the throat wound) were
caused by blood soluble rounds.
> Notice, Jesus OFFERS NO PROOF OF WHAT JFK IS doing
> at ZAP 225-237.
David Von Pein made an excellent
point about JFK not coughing after
Z237.
JFK was paralyzed.
David Von Pein
Them's the chances ye take when attempting to frame your lone patsies
from behind. No frontal shots! It's suicide.
>>> "I bet Jackie would have thrown herself over him." <<<
So why didn't she do this? She had 5 or 6 seconds to play the hero.
>>> "The plotters HAD to allow for that contingency." <<<
A guy at the Trade Mart had a bazooka too (just in case JFK got out of
Dealey without a scratch).
>>> "These guys took no chances." <<<
Who were "these guys" anyway? Any ideas? Or are you guessing again?
>>> "They needed to hit JFK in some place that would pre-occupy him for the 2 seconds for the blood soluble paralytic to take effect." <<<
<howling laughs>
Yeah, instead of getting it over with right away with a fatal blow.
A Patsy Plot planned by fools indeed.
>>> "This scenario matches the x-ray..." <<<
So does the LN/LHO/C2766 scenario. Go figure.
>>> "The real irony here, David, is that this scenario, which you call "foolish and idiotic," was the preliminary conclusion of the very autopsists upon whose testimony you base your case." <<<
Bullshit. The autopsy doctors said no such thing that I'm aware of.
Cite it please.
>>> "It's plain as day." <<<
And as idiotic as all get out too. But, oh well.
David Von Pein
And that's THE ONLY POSSIBLE explanation, right?
Gil Jesus
> stock to those in the research community. Simply go to the
> Education Forum and read the comments for yourselves.
Gil Jesus: Yes, check out that posters credibility and see how they're
rolling in the aisles laughing at me. I guess I'm all alone on this
huh ?
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=b1ab70479c37d8c17953f97f28c2fe6d&showtopic=9492
Then look at the video and see what's so funny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd1o0UTb3oc
Then you decide for yourself.
Cliff
> >>> "What if nervous shooters merely winged JFK and he ducked down?" <<<
>
> Them's the chances ye take when attempting to frame your lone patsies
> from behind. No frontal shots! It's suicide.
They weren't trying to frame a lone patsy.
They were trying to frame Castro.
The assassination was DESIGNED to look
like a conspiracy.
Framing the lone patsy was PLAN B.
>
> >>> "I bet Jackie would have thrown herself over him." <<<
>
> So why didn't she do this? She had 5 or 6 seconds to play the hero.
Because JFK was paralyzed and didn't duck down.
She couldn't throw herself on him because
she couldn't get him down.
>
> >>> "The plotters HAD to allow for that contingency." <<<
>
> A guy at the Trade Mart had a bazooka too (just in case JFK got out of
> Dealey without a scratch).
There was no way he was going
to get out of Dealey Plaza alive.
That's why they paralyzed him first.
They didn't care if it was obvious that
more than one shooter was involved.
>
> >>> "These guys took no chances." <<<
>
> Who were "these guys" anyway? Any ideas? Or are you guessing
> again?
First, read BREACH OF TRUST, by
Gerald McKnight. That will give you
an understanding of the cover-up.
The guys who covered up the crime by framing
Oswald as the lone patsy weren't the same
uys who engineered the assassination.
Then read these two books carefully:
THE LAST INVESTIGATION, by Gaeton Fonzi
SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TALKED,
by Larry Hancock.
Then study the following 3 links, keywords:
General Edward Lansdale:
http://www.ratical.org///ratville/JFK/USO/appD.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
Edward Lansdale, David Atlee Phillips, and
David Morales of the CIA engineered the
assassination of JFK for the express purpose
of framing Fidel Castro, to justify a US military
invasion of Cuba.
>
> >>> "They needed to hit JFK in some place that would pre-occupy him for the 2 seconds for the blood soluble paralytic to take effect." <<<
>
> <howling laughs>
David Von Pein ridicules Humes and Boswell!
Now *that* is funny!
>
> Yeah, instead of getting it over with right away with a fatal blow.
First-shot/kill-shot was not 100% guaranteed.
That plan had to work perfectly -- or else
it meant the gallows.
They didn't need to take chances.
They had the technology to do it.
That's why Sibert called the FBI in the
first place.
What if, instead of being told about CE399,
Sibert had been informed of Charles Senseney's
blood soluble technology.
What if the autopsists had a chance to
view the Zapruder film and see JFK
become paralyzed in two seconds -- a
fact David Von Pein has described.
What if they'd had a chance to view
the x-ray on the spot and seen the
subcutaneous air-pocket overlaying
C7 and T1?
Their preliminary conclusion that
JFK had been hit with blood soluble
rounds would have been powerfully
corroborated.
>
> A Patsy Plot planned by fools indeed.
The plotters didn't plan for a Lone Patsy.
They planned the assassination to look
liked a conspiracy -- multiple shooters
from different directions.
The big glitch in their plot -- Oswald was
captured alive.
>
> >>> "This scenario matches the x-ray..." <<<
>
> So does the LN/LHO/C2766 scenario. Go figure.
Not at all.
The holes in the clothes are too low, and
the Dealey Plaza photos show the jacket
actually DROPPED in Dealey Plaza.
>
> >>> "The real irony here, David, is that this scenario, which you call "foolish and idiotic," was the preliminary conclusion of the very autopsists upon whose testimony you base your case." <<<
>
> Bullshit. The autopsy doctors said no such thing that I'm aware of.
> Cite it please.
FBI SA James Sibert's affidavit:
(quote on)
The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the
bullet in the body caused by striking bone. Consideration
was also given to a type of bullet which fragments completely.
...Following discussion among the doctors relating to the
back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory
and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic] Killion. I asked if he could
furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would
almost completely fragmentize.
(quote off)
FBI SA Francis O'Neill's affidavit:
(quote on)
Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of
the bullet. A general feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet
struck JFK. There was discussion concerning the back
wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or
an "Ice" [sic] bullet, one which dissolves after contact.
(quote off)
The job of the FBI men was to record
the discussions of the autopsists.
The autopsists seriously considered
blood soluble rounds are a strong
possiblity.
That's why Sibert called the FBI Lab:
to inquire about slood soluble rounds.
This scenario fits the extant evidence
like a glove.
It is the only scenario to do so.
>
> >>> "It's plain as day." <<<
>
> And as idiotic as all get out too. But, oh well.
So Humes and Boswell were idiots?
You buy everything they had to say after
they learned of CE399 -- but before that
they were idiots?
Gil Jesus' analysis is sound.
You have observed JFK's obvious paralysis
yourself,.David.
Cliff Varnell
Cliff
> >>> "David Von Pein made an excellent point about JFK not coughing after Z237. JFK was paralyzed." <<<
>
> And that's THE ONLY POSSIBLE explanation, right?
A 95% certainty.
The SBT is flat-out impossible.
Cliff
> On Mar 19, 5:02 am, "Cliff" <n...@sfo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Circle the wagons boys!
>
> > Jacket up on Main St...
>
> >http://video.jfk.org/George_Jefferies_film.wmv
>
> > As per Posner's SBT.
>
> > Jacket down on Elm St...
>
> >http://www.jfk-online.com/Towner.mpg
>
> > Four-plus shots, conspiracy.
>
> > How many LNers does it take
> > to screw in a light bulb?
>
> > None of 'em. They all deny it exists.
>
>
> What did your "blood soluble toxin" TRAVEL within? What was it ENCASED
> IN?
Senseney wasn't specific on this point
in his Senate testimony.
However, the CIA itself described the
following
CIA SPECIAL WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT by
H. Keith Melton (forward by Richard Helms), pg 22:
(quote on)
DART GUN
The dart gun is a single-shot pistol firing a
.03-caliber, mass stabilized projectile...made
of iron particles and the tranquilizer M-99
formed together with a blood/water soluble
bonding agent... If left in the body, the dart
dissolves and becomes unidentifiable on X-ray.
An adjustable shoulder stock is available as an
accessory (must be obtained seperately) for
operations requiring ranges up to 100 feet.
(quote off)
DCIs William Colby and Richard Helms
confirmed the existence of this technology,
and Colby confirmed that the technology
was tested on humans.
>
> Have you thought this through completely?
Yes.
>
> What if the apparent soap bubble bullet missed or hit Jackie?
What "soap bubble bullet"?
Read the historical record, Chuck.
The back wound is also consistent
with a blood soluble round that left
a shallow wound.
JFK was hit from the front and back
with bood soluble rounds.
Better to paralyze Jackie with a round
that didn't leave a trace on x-ray than
allow JFK the chance to duck out of the
way of fire.
>
> Don't you see how silly this is?
So Humes and Boswell were "silly"?
Charles Senseney was "silly"?
William Colby and Richard Helms were
"silly"?
Watch the Gil Jesus video and you can
see JFK try to clear his throat and become
paralyzed in 2 seconds.
Plain as day.
Cliff
David Von Pein
Do Walt, Ben, Tom-Sack, Laz, Dave Healy, Jim Fetzer, and Oliver Stone
know about this "THEY WEREN'T TRYING TO FRAME A LONE PATSY" discovery?
I'll bet they'd be quite interested in it.
I'd hate to think that Oliver took the time and effort to make a huge
blockbuster, multimillion-dollar motion picture and then discover that
he's got it all wrong.
(Do you have any idea how much money it's going to cost Oliver and
Warner Brothers to RE-FILM all of those "LONE PATSY FRAME-UP" scenes??
Months! You've just created a huge headache for WB and Ollie S.!)
>>> "They were trying to frame Castro." <<<
Did Fidel tell you that on your last trip to Havana?
>>> "The assassination was DESIGNED to look like a conspiracy." <<<
Great! Still more work for Oliver, as he re-adjusts his thinking on
film...and re-adjusts history to meet the kooky demands of one Cliff
V. (Not that Oliver's current theories aren't kooky enough, mind
you.) ;)
>>> "There was no way he {JOHN "PARALYZED" KENNEDY} was going to get out of Dealey Plaza alive." <<<
Yeah, that's why "they" took the EXTRA risk of firing weak-sister
projectiles at him ON PURPOSE (to "paralyze"), instead of blowing him
away with shot #1. Right?
>>> "That's why they paralyzed him first." <<<
Totally inconsistent with your previous "They MUST Have Him Dead By
The Time He Exits The Plaza" mindset.
An extra non-lethal shot only INCREASES the likelihood the President
will escape death. (Especially the FIRST shot!)
>>> "They didn't care if it was obvious that more than one shooter was involved." <<<
It appears "they" didn't care about a lot of things.
BTW, via your "THEY DIDN'T CARE" scenario, you must, therefore, NOT
believe in the widely-accepted pro-conspiracy theories of:
1.) CE399 was planted in Parkland to frame ONLY Oswald.
2.) The Backyard Photos are fakes to frame ONLY Oswald.
3.) There were imposter "Oswalds" running all over Creation (including
Mexico City) to frame ONLY Oswald.
Correct?
>>> "The guys who covered up the crime by framing Oswald as the lone patsy weren't the same guys who engineered the assassination." <<<
Does Oliver know about THIS bombshell either?!
>>> "Edward Lansdale, David Atlee Phillips, and David Morales of the CIA engineered the assassination of JFK for the express purpose of framing Fidel Castro, to justify a U.S. military invasion of Cuba." <<<
I guess that little "Missiles" matter, which scared the living shit
out of the entire population of the United States of America in mid-
October of 1962, wasn't enough "justification" to invade Castro's
territory, huh?
Were any alternate "invasion" plans considered?
IOW -- You say those three CIA guys hatched a scheme to kill the U.S.
Chief Executive, instead of finding some "softer", less-desperate
excuse to invade Cuba -- like, say, some kind of invented scenario
(that nobody could possibly prove was "faked", given the CIA's power,
right?) that has the CIA and the President thinking that the U.S.
might be in further danger from Castro's Cuba due to the Missile
Crisis aftermath from only a year before....and, therefore, we'd
better invade Cuba now.
Was killing their own President the first, second, or third choice for
Lansdale, Phillips, and Morales? Did any other possible "Cuba
Invasion" plots cross their minds before making the following
extraordinary decision in 1963?:
"President John F. Kennedy MUST die in order to "justify" invading a
country every American hated with a passion, circa 1962-1963".
>>> "That plan had to work perfectly -- or else it meant the gallows." <<<
<giggle> Yeah, just ATTEMPTING to kill the President isn't nearly
enough to get the plotters hanged, huh?
>>> "The big glitch in their plot -- Oswald was captured alive." <<<
And yet Oswald clams up and never says a word about any "CIA plot"
that he's involved in. Right? He was just willing to take the rap
alone, huh?
Plus: If it was so important to have Oswald dead right away, why
didn't one of the "inside plotters" simply pump Oswald full of lead
immediately? Why wait until he even has a CHANCE of being picked up by
the cops? Where's Jack Ruby when they needed him on Nov. 22nd to bump
off Oswald?!
>>> "FBI SA James Sibert's affidavit (quote on): Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments completely. .... I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize. (quote off) ===== FBI SA Francis O'Neill's affidavit (quote on): Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "ice" bullet, one which dissolves after contact. (quote off)" <<<
And you somehow think that the above comments represent a "conclusion"
reached by the autopsists?
You earlier said this to me:
"The real irony here, David, is that this scenario, which you call
'foolish and idiotic', was the preliminary conclusion of the very
autopsists upon whose testimony you base your case. -- Cliff V.;
03/19/2007
What Sibert and O'Neill said above were IN-PROGRESS POSSIBILITIES TO
BE CONSIDERED re. other ways that the autopsy doctors could possibly
account for what they were seeing in that autopsy room on 11/22/63
(i.e., a dead President with bullet holes in him in various places but
NOT A BULLET OF FRAGMENT TO BE FOUND).
Why WOULDN'T the doctors have originally considered possibilities like
Sibert and O'Neill discussed above? Sure they discussed those
possibilities. And they dismissed them once the full facts re. the
throat wound were known the next day. Just like Humes dismissed the
idea that a bullet had fallen out of JFK's back. .....
Mr. SPECTER - And in that posture of your examination, having just
learned of the presence of a bullet on a stretcher, did that call to
your mind any tentative explanatory theory of the point of entry or
exit of the bullet which you have described as entering at Point "C"
on Exhibit 385?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute
certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the
right lung producing the injury which we mentioned. I did not at that
point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the
anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point
of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in
some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through
the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto
the stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER - And what theory did you think possible, at that
juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of
entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart
massage had been performed on the President?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility
that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might
have in some way caused this event to take place.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor
Humes?
Commander HUMES - Yes; in essence we have.
>>> "That's why Sibert called the FBI Lab: to inquire about blood-soluble rounds. This scenario fits the extant evidence like a glove. It is the only scenario to do so." <<<
Except for that scenario all CTers vehemently despise (but which fits
the evidence even MORE "like a glove") -- the "SBT", which is a
scenario that needs no "soluble" type bullet at all.
The SBT fits the known evidence to a tee:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e06a29392572c072
>>> "So Humes and Boswell were idiots?" <<<
Who said that? They "considered" other possibilities to conceivably
explain why President Kennedy had ZERO bullets and/or fragments inside
his body (where those doctors KNEW there ought to be bullets present
if a single bullet hadn't gone clear through the man).
They weren't "idiots"; they were smart to scratch their heads and look
for other reasons why they were seeing what they were seeing. Once
they got the information from Dr. Perry on November 23, everything
made sense (which the autopsy report states, clear as day).....
"The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above
the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and
the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the
neck. This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal
pleura and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung.
The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck,
damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of
the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony
structures in its path through the body." -- VIA JFK'S AUTOPSY REPORT;
NOV. 1963
>>> "You have observed JFK's obvious paralysis yourself, David." <<<
News to me. I always thought I was observing the Single-Bullet Theory
in action....which is a theory that matches the Zapruder Film, again,
to a "tee":
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/4594.gif
http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/225-226%20Full.gif
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bb22792c022c5a2e
Cliff
> >>> "The holes in the clothes {OF JOHN KENNEDY} are too low." <<<
>
> <yawn>
>
> Great, the "Clothes Trump The Back-Wound Entry Location" shit again.
> Lovely.
Now, it's the Clothes Corroborate the T3
back wound entry shit again.
Along with 3 contemporaneous documents:
1) the Death Certificate marked "verified"
2) the autopsy face sheet marked "verified"
3) the FBI autopsy report
Along with the sworn testimony of at least
5 federal agents:
1) FBI SA James Sibert
2) FBI SA Francis O'Neill
3) SS SA Glen Bennett
4) SS SA Clint Hill
5) SS SA Roy Kellerman
Along with the witness statements of medical
personnel who handled the body:
1) Parkland Nurse Diana Bowron
2) Autopsy Doctor John Ebersole
3) Autopsy witness Chester Boyers
4) Autopsy witness Floyd Reibe
5) Autopsy witness Jan Gail Rudnicki
6) Autopsy witness James Curtis Jenkins
7) Autopsy witness Edward Reed
You can claim all these people suffered
the same hallucination, David, but you
still can't get the holes in the clothes to
ride up three inches when the Dealey Plaza
films and photos show the jacket DROPPED.
>
> More below (so I don't have to write all of this stuff over, yet
> again):
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/1d9fb8a41b86...
>
I wrote a rebuttal to this on aajfk -- but it never
saw the light of day.
> >>> "To whomever goes the credit {FOR "THE COUGH"}, the credit is deserved." <<<
>
> <chuckle>
>
> It's isolated subjectivism, Cliff. Nothing more. Gil (and Miller)
> don't go BEYOND "The Cough", to explore any alternate possible
> scenarios/conclusions.
That's my job.
> And those who posit such crap re. the throat
> wound being caused by a separate bullet fail to ever to answer the
> logical questions of "How?" and "From where did this shot come?" and
> "Why didn't this bullet exit the other side?".
And you continue to ignore your own
witnesses -- Humes and Boswell posited
blood soluble rounds the night of the
autopsy.
>
> That last question, of course, DOUBLES itself when a proposed SEPARATE
> back shot is contemplated and proposed as FACT. It's double the "No
> transit" absurdity.
Back to calling Humes and Boswell absurd?
I love it!
>
> Plus: Did it ever occur to Gil that even if JFK was coughing, a thru-&-
> thru transiting bullet just MIGHT have caused the same type of
> reaction. A bullet has positively passed through that trachea; whether
> it was GOING IN or COMING OUT. Why couldn't a "cough" sensation be
> achieved via an EXITING bullet passing THROUGH Kennedy's neck? Should
> that possibility be totally discounted?
Yes. The T3 back wound is too low.
>
> But as long as "The Cough" (via a FRONTAL shot) convinces the CT
> isolationists...everything is copacetic I guess. Go figure. (I can't.)
Review what the autopsists discussed
the night of the autopsy.
>
> >>> "I find it interesting that you scoff at a scenario the autopsists themselves posited the night of the autopsy." <<<
>
> I didn't realize H,F,&B thought that JFK was attempting to "cough up"
> a bullet. Where are you getting that info?
No, David, the blood soluble rounds.
Cliff
>
> >>> "They were trying to frame Castro." <<<
>
> Did Fidel tell you that on your last trip to Havana?
>
David, I have a question for you.
Have you ever served your country in
the military?
Just wondering...
Cliff
> On Mar 18, 11:17 pm, "David Von Pein" <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > >>> "The Magic Bullet scenario was contrived and dictated to the autopsists by those directing the cover-up." <<<
>
> > Bullshit.
>
> > The SBT is by far the best scenario for the JFK/JBC wounding.
Misses the holes in the clothes by three
inches and requires more than a dozen
people who saw the wound to have suffered
the same hallucination.
> No other
> > scenario comes even close in the "non-laughable" department (not to
> > mention the "bullets" and "other evidence" departments to boot).
>
> > More:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0b30398a449c05b7
>
> > >>> "Gil's analysis is spot on." <<<
>
> > Gil's analysis is isolated CTer bullshit. As usual.
>
> > And it's not Gil's analysis anyway. "The Cough" had been theorized
> > years earlier, as you (cliff) should know, being a Lancer member,
> > where Bill Miller hangs out on occasion.....
>
> >http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&to...
>
> Funny that Cliff has a hard time wrapping his mind around the utterly
> sensible and logical and TESTED SBT
Show us in this photo where JFK's shirt
and jacket were elevated 3 inches above
the C7 SBT in-shoot at the base of his neck.
http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri3/altgens2.jpg
> but has no problem in believing in
> a blood soluble round of some sort.
Humes and Boswell had no problem believing
in a blood soluble round of some sort.
Tell us how idiotic they were for thinking
that, Chuck.
>
> Cliff:
>
> You demonstrate an utter lack of common sense on this issue.
Common sense brings you to conclude
that everyone who saw the wounds suffered
the same mass hallucination?
Common sense tells you that 3/4" and 3"
are the same distances?
> I know
> it's a pet theory, like the shirt collar thing you endlessly debate
> Chad Z on, but c'mon, Cliff!
Chad Z is making wonderful progress.
He stipulates to a mere 1" ride up of
the jacket in the photo I cited above.
Chad stipulates to the drop of the jacket
on Houston St.
Chad stipulates to the visible shirt collar
on Elm St.
Chad stipulates to the insignificant impact
any arm waving by JFK might have had
on his clothing on Elm St.
Chad has observed that shirts and jackets
don't move the same.
These are not theories.
These are readily observed physical
facts which preclude any possibility of
the SBT.
>
> Wasn't the "blood soluble round", as described by Senseney, designed
> to leave no traces of toxins in the victim...not disappear ENTIRELY?
Disappear entirely.
> By the way, his Church testimony specifically states that he was
> unaware that this technology had been modified to be used on
> humans...just dogs.
In Colby's testimony we learned that the
CIA tested it on humans.
>
> Unless you think someone fired a soap-bubble at JFK, you are sunk.
Read the testimony. The round was the
size of a.22, and could be even bigger
given the size of the target.
> IOW, something fired at JFK from the knoll or wherever has to have
> some mass to be accurate. The question is this:
>
> If he was struck in the throat from the side or in front of the limo,
> where did these fragments go?
There were no fragments.
That's why its called "blood soluble."
> The so-called blood soluble round needs
> to be encased in some sort of strong aerodynamically shaped material
> to travel through the air accurately and strike its intended target.
If you read the cites I've included in
other posts you'd know that they used
iron particles as a bonding agent.
>
> If you are saying that the entire round was designed to dissolve in
> mere seconds, I'd like to know what specific tests have you done to
> buttress your theory.
The round was designed to take effect
in two seconds.
How long it took to dissolve is another
matter.
>
> Also, if the conspiracy was so big, why not just shoot him in the darn
> head from the knoll without worrying about "blood soluble rounds" and
> whatnot.
Because a first-shot/kill-shot was
not guaranteed.
>
> It's another example of an extremely complex and risky added layer of
> possible problems
Not complex or risky.
The technology existed and they probably
used it.
Fits all the known evidence.
> (what if the blood soluble round had hit Jackie?)
She would have recovered and people
would have had even more reason to hate
Castro.
> to an assassination already occurring in broad daylight, in front of
> hundreds of witnesses, many with cameras, surrounded by cops, SS
> agents, the national press, etc.
That was the idea. Big public execution,
big public uproar over Castro.
>
> What a clusterf--- of silly, clouded thinking!
So Humes and Boswell were silly?
David Von Pein
Good moniker indeed. I like it.
David Von Pein
WHY do you think that Humes/Boswell should have stuck to any type of
"soluble bullet" scenario to explain JFK's wounds even AFTER they
learned from Perry about the bullet hole in Kennedy's throat?
When given the choice of crazy melting bullets/fragments or a thru-&-
thru shot/bullet -- which scenario would seem MORE likely to you...or
to ANYBODY for that matter?
Why do CTers feel it necessary to pile on the complications within a
murder case that doesn't require ANY such complications (at all)?
EVERY last piece of evidence is THERE for the LN/LHO/SBT/C2766/3 SHOTS
scenario. EVERY piece.
There's not a bullet missing (that hit a limo victim at any rate; the
Tague miss notwithstanding of course); there's not a gun missing;
there's not a killer missing; there's not even a BULLET SHELL missing
(including the Tippit murder too) -- we've got SEVEN of those things
tied conclusively to Oswald's weaponry! Seven!
Prints, bullets, shells, TWO guns, no alibis (for either murder), a
paper sack w/prints, fibers, eyewitnesses (to both killings), a wild
fight with the arresting cops, and gobs of LHO lies (which, ALONE,
would have convicted the bum).
As VB said in '86 -- HOW MUCH MORE DO YOU NEED??!!
Britney Spears (while asleep) could convict Lee Oswald given the above
laundry list!!
(Is it okay to launch into my VB imitation now? Okay; thanks....)
Gil Jesus
> > the incomparable DVP, and Bud, and TL,
> > YoHarvey, et al have done stellar jobs..
Gil Jesus: Von Pein is the only one who even comes close to arguing
points. The others are just insulters. It just shows that Ed Cage as
no clue.
Cliff
> Cluster-Cliff......
>
> WHY do you think that Humes/Boswell should have stuck to any type of
> "soluble bullet" scenario to explain JFK's wounds even AFTER they
> learned from Perry about the bullet hole in Kennedy's throat?
Perry described it as a wound of entrance
on 11/22/63.
>
> When given the choice of crazy
So Humes and Boswell were "crazy"?
> melting bullets/fragments or a thru-&-
> thru shot/bullet -- which scenario would seem MORE likely to you...or
> to ANYBODY for that matter?
The autopsists probed the wound and
found no transit.
The cover-up was put into motion by
Johnson and Hoover, and Humes went
along, a military man acting under the
orders of his commander and chief.
Johnson had everyone believing that
40 millions Americans would die unless
the real nature of the crime was covered-up.
>
> Why do CTers feel it necessary to pile on the complications within a
> murder case that doesn't require ANY such complications (at all)?
The evidence proves at least 4 shots.
If you can put a gun in Oswald's hand that
got off four shots, then this discussion is over.
>
> EVERY
With the exception of the bullet holes in the
clothes, the Dealey Plaza photos showing
the jacket dropped, the death certificate, the
autopsy face sheet, the FBI autopsy report,
more than a dozen people who got a prolonged
view of the back wound and reported it in the
vicinityof T3, consistent with the above.
> last piece of evidence is THERE for the LN/LHO/SBT/C2766/3 SHOTS
> scenario. EVERY piece.
Chad Zimmerman cannot identify
more than one inch of jacket elevation
in Dealey Plaza BEFORE the jacket
dropped.
The SBT needs 3".
>
> There's not a bullet missing (that hit a limo victim at any rate; the
> Tague miss notwithstanding of course);
All you do is repeat LN talking points over
and over and never deal with the actual
evidence?
Amazing how everyone who laid eyes
on Kennedy's wounds suffered from a
mass hallucination!
> there's not a gun missing;
They took their guns with them.
Do trained killers usually leave their
weapons behind?
> there's not a killer missing;
The holes in the clothes dictate
a second shooter -- unless you want
to argue that Oswald got off four shots.
> there's not even a BULLET SHELL missing
The autopsists got it right the night
of the autopsy -- blood soluble rounds.
Hit at Z199, JFK was paralyzed by Z237.
This is consistent with Senseney's testimony
that the blood soluble paralytic he developed
took two seconds to paralyze the target.
What's the simplest explanation for
a man acting paralyzed?
He IS paralyzed.
> (including the Tippit murder too) -- we've got SEVEN of those things
> tied conclusively to Oswald's weaponry! Seven!
>
> Prints, bullets, shells, TWO guns, no alibis (for either murder), a
> paper sack w/prints, fibers, eyewitnesses (to both killings), a wild
> fight with the arresting cops, and gobs of LHO lies (which, ALONE,
> would have convicted the bum).
What about the gobs of Johnson/Hoover/Humes/Specter
lies?
>
> As VB said in '86 -- HOW MUCH MORE DO YOU NEED??!!
Ask Vince how 3 inches of jacket fabric
and 3 inches of shirt fabric bunched up
in tandem entirely above the C7 SBT
in-shoot (at the base of JFK's neck)
without pushing up on the jacket collar
(at the base of JFK's neck).
That, my fine LN friend, is physically
impossible.
Disparate, solid objects do not occupy
the same physical space at the same time.
Cliff
> Clusterfuck Cliff.
>
> Good moniker indeed. I like it.
David,
Ever serve your country in the military?
Don't feel bad if you haven't, I haven't
myself.
I'm just curious...
lazu...@webtv.net
projectile with great interest. You mentioned the missile as possibly
being encased in iron particles. This ties into something whch I have
brought up many times in the past, the metallic particles/fragments seen
on a now-lost cervical X ray by Jerrol Custer. He says that during the
autopsy, while the prosectors were purportedly looking for
bullets/fragments in the body, he pointed out small fragments/particles
at mid-cervical level on an X ray he had just developed. He says he was
told, "To mind my own business". There is no full cervical X ray
currently available in order to either validate or refute Custer's
story.
There was, of course, no posterior entry wound at mid neck level, so
those fragments had to have come from the front, i.e. the throat wound.
Consequently, the autopsists were forbidden by their military superiors
to follow SOP and explore and dissect out the throat wound, as part of
the cover-up to falsify any frontal shots. As I always say, why cover up
a shot from the rear?
I've consistently thought that JFK was struck in the throat by a small
caliber round, possibly no bigger than a .22. The blood-soluble bullet
encased in iron particulate may fill the bill nicely. Regards, Old Laz
Cliff
Thanks for your kinds words, Laz. As always!
Here's a passage from the HSCA's
analysis of the extant lower cervical
x-ray:
(quote on)
Evaluation of the pre-autopsy film shows that
there is some subcutaneous or interstitial
air overlying the right C7 and T1 transverse
processes. There is disruption of the integrity
of the transverse process of T1, which, in
comparison with its mate on the opposite side
and also with the previously taken film, mentioned
above, indicates that there has been a fracture in
that area. There is some soft tissue density
overlying the apex of the right lung which may
be hematoma in that region or other soft tissue
swelling.
Evaluation of the post-autopsy film shows that
there is subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying
C7 and T1. The same disruption of T1 right
transverse process is still present.
On the film of the right side, taken post-autopsy,
there are two small metallic densities in the
region of the C7 right transverse process. These
densities are felt to be artifact, partly because
of their marked density, because there is a similar
artifact overlying the body of C7, and because
these metallic-like densities were not present
on the previous, pre-autopsy film. Therefore, I
assume that these are screen artifacts from
debris present in the cassette at the time that
this film was exposed.
(quote off)
There is an "assumption" that the metallic
debris was a screen artifact.
I don't know what to make of that.
The more crucial information here, imo,
is the subcutaneous air-pocket overlaying
C7 and T1.
What kind of round leaves an air pocket.
and no bullet?
David Von Pein
Sure he did. But for the purposes of this "What Did Humes Know And
When Did He Know It?" conversation, your point is a moot one.
Perry never saw the back wound. Humes did. And Humes did the autopsy
(Perry didn't), and Humes saw the X-rays (featuring nary a bullet or
fragment). Perry didn't.
Humes now has to assess the situation -- "How can this be?", he asked
himself. And after learning (for certain) that there was, indeed, a
bullet hole in the throat of President Kennedy, and coupled with his
other knowledge (no bullets in JFK and a wound of entry in the back)
-- Humes arrives at the only logical conclusion.....
ONE MISSILE PASSED THROUGH BOTH OF THESE BULLET HOLES.
As they say on Dragnet.....
MARK VII!
>>> "Ask Vince {Bugliosi} how 3 inches of jacket fabric and 3 inches of shirt fabric bunched up
in tandem entirely above the C7 SBT in-shoot (at the base of JFK's
neck) without pushing up on the jacket collar (at the base of JFK's
neck)." <<<
Why should I ask VB? He knows, just like I do, that the ONLY possible
conclusion to reach re. the "clothing hole discrepancies" is that the
ONE bullet went through the ONE hole in JFK's jacket, and the ONE hole
in JFK's shirt, and the ONE hole in JFK's back (skin).
No other conclusion is even remotely possible, without involving some
of the craziest-sounding conspiracy-tinged shit I've EVER heard in my
life.
As they say on Dragnet.....
MARK VII!
Cliff
> >>> "Perry described it as a wound of entrance on 11/22/63." <<<
>
> Sure he did. But for the purposes of this "What Did Humes Know And
> When Did He Know It?" conversation, your point is a moot one.
I don't follow you. The wound in the back
was probed and there was no transit.
There was also no bullet.
Learning about the throat entry wound
is consistent with what they'd already
found with the back wound -- a wound
of entry with no exit and no bullet.
I think the autopsists were discussing
this very fact the night of the autopsy.
2 entrance wounds
zero exit wounds
zero bullets
Blood soluble rounds.
This scenario best fits the extant
evidence to a point of considerable
redundancy.
David Von Pein
Gee, what a surprise there.
Cliff
>
> No other conclusion is even remotely possible, without involving some
> of the craziest-sounding conspiracy-tinged shit I've EVER heard in my
> life.
>
Humes, Boswell and Finck shared a
"general sense" that this crazy conspiracy
shit was very possible.
The FBI men concurred.
David Von Pein
Not after learning all the facts from Parkland.
But if you say this shit another 99 times you might convince somebody
of its validity (maybe even yourself).
Cliff
> >>> "Humes, Boswell and, Finck shared a "general sense" that this crazy conspiracy shit was very possible." <<<
>
> Not after learning all the facts from Parkland.
Read BREACH OF TRUST and you'll
see that the "facts" were hijacked by
the assassination cover-up.
>
> But if you say this shit another 99 times you might convince somebody
> of its validity (maybe even yourself).
You state as a fact that the bullet
wound in the throat was an exit.
So who are you to be citing "the facts
from Parkland"??
You seem to think that everyone
who saw the throat wound suffered
the same mass hallucination!
David Von Pein
Mr. SPECTER - Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could
it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?
Dr. PERRY - It could have been either.
Gil Jesus
> who saw the throat wound suffered
> the same mass hallucination!
That's exactly what they think. ALL of the medical experts at Parkland
who SAW the throat wound BEFORE the tracheostomy, were either mistaken
or lied purposely for no apparent reason about what it was.
Yet they would have us believe that the autopsy doctors at Bethesda,
who never even SAW the throat wound AT ALL, and didn't even know about
its existance until they were told by the PARKLAND doctors, knew it
was an exit wound.
Absolute and total foolishness.
Cliff
There have been 7 people who saw
the throat wound and described it as
a wound of entrance.
In addition, the back wound was graphically
described as low and non-transiting, powerful
corroboration of the fact the wound in the
throat was an entry.
Sylvia Meagher, ACCESSORIES AFTER THE
FACT, pg 150
(quote on)
Is it true that the doctors present during the
treatment of the President at Parkland Hospital
did not form an opinion about the nature of this
wound?
According to their written reports of the same day,
it is not true. Dr. Charles Carrico described a
"small penetrating wound" of anterior neck in lower
third. (CE 392) Dr. Ronald C. Jones referred to
"a small hole in anterior midline of neck thought
to be a bullet entrance wound...air was bubbling
through the neck wound" (Jones, Ronald, Exhibit 1)
(quote off)
In addition to the two contemporaneous
written reports, we have the following
witness statements.
Nurse Margaret Henchliffe WC testimony:
(quote on)
[A] little hole in the middle of his neck...About
as big as the end of my little finger...An entrance
bullet hole -- it looked to me like...I have never
seen an exit bullet hole -- I don't remember seeing
one like that;...it was just a small wound and wasn't
jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that I
have seen.
(quote off)
Nurse Diana Bowron to author Harrison Livingstone,
KILLING THE TRUTH, pg 188:
(quote on)
HL: And, so did you see the wound in the
throat before? When he was in the car?
DB: Yes.
HL: Okay. And what did that look like?
DB: Well, that looked like an entry wound.
(quote off)
Dr. Charles Crenshaw, CONSPIRACY OF
SILENCE, pg 79:
(quote on)
I also identified a small opening about the
diameter of a pencil at the midline of his
throat to be an entry bullet hole. There was
no doubt in my mind about that wound.
(quote off)
Dr. Gene Akin's WC testimony:
(quote on)
Mr. SPECTER - What was the dimension of the
punctate wound, without regards to the tracheotomy
which was being started?
Dr. AKIN - It looked--it was as you said,
it was a puncture wound. It was roughly
circular, about, I would judge, 1.5 cm.
in diameter.
(quote off)
Dr. Charles Baxter's WC testimony:
(quote on)
Mr. Specter - Were the characteristics of
the wound on the neck sufficient to enable
you to form an opinion with reasonable
medical certainty as to what was the cause
of the hole?
Dr. Baxter - Well, the wound was, I think,
compatible with a gunshot wound. It did
not appear to be a jagged wound such
as one would expect with a very high velocity
rifle bullet...Judging from the caliber of the rifle
that we later found or become acquainted with,
this would more resemble a wound of entry.
(quote off)
Dr. Malcolm Perry's 11/22/63 televised
press conference:
(quote on)
There was an entrance wound in the neck...
It appeared to be coming at him...The
wound appeared to be an entrance wound
in the front of the throat; yes, that is correct.
(quote off)
lazu...@webtv.net
entrance wound, using terms like "puncture", "punctate", and
"penetrating". These words cannot be construed to mean they could also
describe an exit wound.. Dr. Perry was adamant right after the
assassination that the throat wound was one of entrance, but later,
after being visited by the SS/FBI prior to his WC testimony, he was
"encouraged" to get with the program. Consequently, to the WC he
acknowedged that the wound could be either one of entrance or exit.
-----Old Laz, who goes with the earliest accounts
Cliff
The claim that Bethesda didn't know about
the throat entrance wound strains credulity, imo.
Adm. Burkley saw the throat wound at
Parkland and helped direct the autopsy.
To think that he didn't share that
little fact about the throat wound
with the autopsists is hard to buy.
David Von Pein
Okay, Cliff....If the throat wound was one of ENTRANCE.....
Where's the bullet?
Where did it vanish to?
And:
Where's that SECOND bullet that entered JFK's back and never exited
either (via your theory)?
Where did that second bullet vanish to?
And CE399 CANNOT be one of these two missiles.
399 cannot represent any FRONTAL throat bullet, for the simple reason
Oswald's MC rifle was to the REAR of JFK when he suffered the throat
injury.
And 399 cannot be the back bullet either...because that bullet was
discovered in an area of Parkland where neither JFK nor his stretcher
was ever located.
So, let's hear where the bullets went after entering JFK's soft flesh
(neck AND back), not doing any substantial damage at all, but yet
stopping like they each hit a brick wall or something about as hard.
TWO disappearing missiles?? Two???
One's hard enough to swallow -- but doubling it??!! Come now, use your
brain.
Cliff
> >>> "There have been 7 people who saw the throat wound and described it as a wound of entrance." <<<
>
> Okay, Cliff....If the throat wound was one of ENTRANCE.....
>
> Where's the bullet?
It dissolved. Just as Humes and Boswell initially
concluded as per their "general feeling."
> Where did it vanish to?
Look at the lower cervical x-ray.
What was the damage reported?
Bruised lung tip, hairline fracture of the
tip of the right T1 transverse process,
and a subcutaneous air pocket overlaying
C7 and T1.
What kind of round leaves an air pocket
and no bullet?
A blood soluble round.
>
> And:
>
> Where's that SECOND bullet that entered JFK's back and never exited
> either (via your theory)?
No my theory. Humes and Boswell and Finck's
"general sense" that JFK was struck with
blood soluble rounds.
Gil Jesus' analysis of JFK's motions are
consistent with the conclusion that JFK
was struck circa Z199 with a blood soluble
paralytic that took two seconds to take
effect.
We can see him freeze up at Z237.
This scenario fits the evidence perfectly.
> Where did that second bullet vanish to?
The wound was graphically described
as shallow.
Of course, to an LNer every one who saw
the wounds suffered a mass hallucination!
>
> And CE399 CANNOT be one of these two missiles.
>
> 399 cannot represent any FRONTAL throat bullet, for the simple reason
> Oswald's MC rifle was to the REAR of JFK when he suffered the throat
> injury.
>
> And 399 cannot be the back bullet either...because that bullet was
> discovered in an area of Parkland where neither JFK nor his stretcher
> was ever located.
>
> So, let's hear where the bullets went after entering JFK's soft flesh
> (neck AND back), not doing any substantial damage at all, but yet
> stopping like they each hit a brick wall or something about as hard.
The throat shot did some damage.
The back shot did not.
The man acted paralyzed after Z237.
Occam's Razor -- what's the simplest
explanation for a man acting paralyzed?
He IS paralyzed.
>
> TWO disappearing missiles?? Two???
>
> One's hard enough to swallow -- but doubling it??!! Come now, use your
> brain.
So Humes and Boswell didn't have any brains?
If you say so, David...
Cliff
Laz, I'm convinced the early accounts
tell the story. Ditto the photo evidence.
As far as I'm concerned, the throat
wound points to perps who operated
within Operation Mongoose.
This guy...
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorales.htm
...hired this guy...
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwerbell.htm
...to adapt the technology developed by
this guy...
Cliff
Not at all. Eliminate the assumptions from
your argument.
Cliff
>
> Yes, but you are adding assumptions to your argument.
That may be your conclusion, sure...
But will this post contain an argument?
>
> How do you account for JBC's back wound if it wasn't from a bullet
> exiting JFK's throat?
According to the accounts taken from
observers at the autopsy, the back wound
was just below the upper margin of the
right scapula about 1.75" right of midline.
The wound was shallow and no bullet
was recovered.
(Although there have been individual reports
of a bullet dropping out of the wound and a
bullet being found with the body, I only rely
on consensus witness testimony, unless the
witness testimony is confirmed by the
photographic evidence.)
The wound was probed and no lane
of transit was found.
That's a T3 back wound, shallow, no
bullet and no exit.
What assumptions am I making?
>
> Are all of you CT'ers totally broke? How 'bout producing a little
> "cartoon" like Dale Myers did and show us the trajectory path for this
> JBC wound.
I haven't discussed any JBC wound.
> Have the same people ABC used to review Dale's work review
> your work.
Myers' root concept is entirely fallacious.
Myers assumes the bullet that transversed
Connally's torso was a FMJ that took a
perfectly straight path thru the torse while
neatly stripping out 4 inches of curved rib
and then slightly deflecting.
Myers is essentially claiming that a
perfectly straight line is a scientifically
accurate representation of a provably
curved bullet path.
Mr. Myers is intellectually dishonest.
>
> Why aren't you eliminating your assumptions and dealing with what is
> known-Ozzie's rifle and the ballistics evidence tying the spent shells
> and bullet/fragment(s) to the MC on the sixth floor?
The issue at hand is the number of shots.
Without the Single Bullet Theory one more
shooter is a fact.
Where is my assumption in that?
>
> Sorry, Cliff...even you need to admit that the BEST EVIDENCE we have
> is the hard physical evidence, and it pints to no one but Lee Harvey
> Oswald.
Even if this were true, it doesn't preclude
another shooter who took his weapon with
him.
>
> Fanciful plots involving planted, forged this-and-that and mysterious
> super-secret James Bondian weapons need to be assumed for your thing
> to work.
My thing?
It's Humes and Boswell's thing, what
FBI SA Sibert called "a general feeling."
And the FBI took it seriously.
Sibert called the FBI Lab to inquire as
to the existence of blood soluble rounds.
His question was never answered.
But we have an answer -- yes.
Charles Senseney had developed for the
US Army and the CIA a blood soluble
round the size of a .22 (or larger) that
took two seconds to paralyze the target.
Let's imagine Humes and Co. getting
that story instead of Q1 (CE399).
And suppose someone ran in with
the lower cervical x-ray right then and
pointed out the damage: bruised lung tip,
hairline fracture of the tip of the right
T1 transverse process, and the
subcutaneous air pocket overlaying
C7 and T1.
What kind of round leaves an airpocket
and no bullet?
Blood soluble, perhaps.
Then the young Gil Jesus runs in
with the Zapruder film and shows
JFK trying to cough up a bullet and
then stop trying to cough a bullet
about 2 seconds after the last frame
of the Z film where JFK sat bolt upright
waving his arm (Z198):
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z198.jpg
Given the addition information, I think Humes
and Boswell would have felt entirely vindicated
in their initial "general feeling."
Gil Jesus
> Why aren't you eliminating your assumptions and dealing with what is
> known-Ozzie's rifle and the ballistics evidence tying the spent shells
> and bullet/fragment(s) to the MC on the sixth floor?
What is known ? Really Chuck ? How is CE 543 ( the dented shell found
on the sixth floor ) linked to Oswald's rifle ?
Cliff
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'm asking yout to deal with JBC's wound that exited near his right
> nipple and zinged him in the wrist and thigh. Where did that shot come
> from if not from passing through JKF's throat?
The SW window of the TSBD, why?
>
> Remember Occam's Razor.
>
> Subtract "general feelings". Subtract thoughts. Emotions. Subtract
> opinions. Deal with the hard evidence, not possible poisons and
> disolving darts.
Yeah, while you posit Mass Hallucinations
among everyone who saw his wounds.
But you never get past the physical evidence
of the holes in the clothes.
You guys argue about physical evidence
all day long but when you're challenged to
show in the photographs where JFK's
clothing was hiked up 3 inches all you
ever muster is --"The jacket's bunched."
You guys pimp non sequitur morning
noon and night.
David Von Pein
No need to...as any reasonable person can easily see.
1 hole in shirt.
1 hole in jacket.
1 hole in JFK's back.
Kindergarten math.
Cliff
What's your point, David?
The holes ion the clothes are 3 inches
below the SBT C7 inshoot.
The SBT trajectory is thru the neck,
not the back.
A back entry is too low.
A little kid could figure this out.
David Von Pein
Dead wrong. And why you're saying this is a larger mystery than the
clothing-hole locations.
The SBT trajectory is positively through JFK's upper back, just where
Boswell's face-sheet measurements place it (14cm. below tip of
mastoid). And this photo proves it (CE903):
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0055b.htm
More........
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bf3ae3c6c0993e13
>>> "A little kid could figure this out." <<<
Yes....a little kid could. Hence, my "kindergarten math" remark just
one post earlier.
Wonder why you can't figure it out.
Cliff
> >>> "The SBT trajectory is thru the neck, not the back." <<<
>
> Dead wrong. And why you're saying this is a larger mystery than the
> clothing-hole locations.
>
> The SBT trajectory is positively through JFK's upper back, just where
> Boswell's face-sheet measurements place it (14cm. below tip of
> mastoid). And this photo proves it (CE903):
Dale Myers computer animation puts
the entrance wound 3/4" above C7/T1.
The Australian SBT Team fired a round
at C7/T1 and was about an inch low.
However, the trajectory out of the chest
was several inches too low -- a fact the
program demonstrated but failed to note.
C7/T1 doesn't work for you.
Even if it did, Chiropractor Chad Zimmerman
stipulates to the fact that JFK's jacket was
elevated an inch or less on Houston St.
BEFORE the jacket collar fell.
The trajectory doesn't work, David.
Chad's analysis debunks the SBT.
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0...
>
> More........http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bf3ae3c6c0993e13
David Von Pein
Cliff
> CE903 is pure fiction, then, right Cliff??
Pure tragi-comedy..
Ever see the photo taken from BEHIND
the limo in that re-creation, David?
It shows Arlen Specter holding his
little pointer 4" - 5" ABOVE a great big
"back wound" dot.
Specter looks like a total idiot.
J. Edger Hoover set him up to look like an
idiot. J Edgar Hoover had originally been
put in charge of the cover-up, but this
snot-nosed kid from Philly was trying to
re-write the FBI playbook.
The FBI never acknowledged the
SBT trajectory, only its conclusion:
3 shots fired.
Hoover chose to ignore the Tague
wounding rather than buy into this
Single Bullet nonsense pushed by
the pip-squeak Specter.
That's why the WC put the front shot
of the re-creation in the Report, David,
to hide the back wound.
And they didn't want the world to see what
kind of fool Hoover made of Specter.