Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 13)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From April 2006, June
2006, July 2006, and March 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Evidence and ideas are as useless in
the troll's world as a match is in hell.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- And common sense and logical-thinking are as
useless to a conspiracy-loving kook as a mime was to Ray Charles.
A good example of "CT-Kook Interpretation" of events presents itself
during a certain airport video clip taken at Love Field showing Secret
Service Agent Henry Rybka being told to come away from the
Presidential limousine just as the motorcade is getting underway.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8
The video's conspiracy-loving narrator says that the "two" agents
being recalled off of JFK's bumper (even though it appears that Emory
Roberts in the SS car is only signalling to Rybka; Clint Hill appears
to have returned to his running-board position on his own) were
originally part of JFK's "bodyguards" assigned to be "human shields"
to protect the President, and that both agents (including Clint Hill)
were assigned to ride JFK's bumper during the ENTIRE motorcade drive
through Dallas.
That statement from that particular video in question is overblown and
just flat-out wrong. There are many films of various JFK motorcades,
and I have NEVER seen two agents constantly riding on the back of
JFK's car. The President wouldn't have permitted that anyway. He hated
the agents riding the bumpers.
As Clint Hill later explained, the agents only rode the bumper of the
President's car when the situation warranted doing so...but certainly
not all the time (nor even most of the time).
Does this mean that Secret Service protocol was violated in all of the
many OTHER parades too (including Kennedy's Inauguration parade in
1961)? Where's the "conspiratorial Secret Service stand-down" in all
of those many other instances where we don't see any agents riding
Kennedy's bumper, such as the examples provided below?.....
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/0c/Photo_jfkl-01_0130-AR-7956-1B.jpg
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Hawaii2.jpg
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3374883466e6f1e9
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CTer -- You see JFK reaching for an exit wound {in the Z-Film}?
DVP -- Of course. That's plain as day. Because it was determined that
the hole in his throat WAS, indeed, an "exit wound". Duh.
Why is reaching for the exit wound not a possibility? He had TWO holes
created in his body by Bullet #CE399....one of them in his throat,
where his hands generally rise toward.
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CTer -- I never said that I was the only one who ever discovered this
{the "JFK Was Trying To Cough Up A Bullet" theory}. But I will take
credit for bringing this issue to the attention of the world.
DVP -- And don't forget to take a few additional kook bows for
ISOLATING yet another HIGHLY-SUBJECTIVE hunk of evidence in the
case...and then KEEPING IT ISOLATED without offering up any potential
alternative, other than your "Proof Of Conspiracy" conjecture. Nice
work (for a CT-Kook).
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CTer -- Arguing with morons like yourself, who can't see a man trying
to cough something up in a video, when the WORLD can see it, is just a
waste of time.
DVP -- Tell me this....did this "coughing" business just suddenly pop
into your head one day last week? Did you wake up in a sweat one night
and have a "coughing vision"? The light bulb of "coughing" TRUTH went
off in your head possibly?
You've probably watched those 26 seconds that comprise the Z-Film
countless times. But it took until viewing #1,478 before the
"obvious" (your word) nature of JFK's cough-fest became so great in
your mind that you felt compelled to say anything about it, eh?
One can only wonder why you failed to note this "obvious" observation
the other 1,477 times.
My guess on that -- You were probably running low on theories this
month, so "The Cough" was recycled from the inventive files of a
fellow member in the "Anybody But Oswald" club for a few more laps
around the kook track. (Plus, the advent of FREE online YouTube video
placement was no doubt attractive as well....a place where any
conspiracy nuthatch can peddle his wares.)
I'm also wondering why the proverbial "Z-Film Alteration Crew" didn't
see the "obvious" nature of the conspiracy-proving "JFK Cough" that's
visible in the film?
I guess the "cough" and the "head snap" (with the latter being
something that seals the "It Was A Conspiracy" deal for a huge number
of people) were things that the Z-Film Fakery team couldn't be
bothered with. They were much more concerned with Mary Moorman's shoes
and socks and a motorcycle cop's helmet bands.
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CTer -- Hale Boggs suddenly vanished in an airplane crash in 1972.
DVP -- Yeah, that's certainly a "Mystery Death", isn't it? The "Death
Squad" conspirators must have thought it was wise to wait 9 years to
get rid of that guy Boggs. I guess they just crossed their fingers and
hoped that he wouldn't say anything in those nine years to expose the
"plot".
That makes about as much sense as waiting to kill assassination
eyewitness Lee Bowers, who died in a car crash three months AFTER he
had already been filmed by Mark Lane telling "conspiratorial" stuff.
But why would anybody bother to rub out Bowers at that point in time?
He was already ON FILM having gabbed about stuff that any "plotters"
would want kept quiet!
~LOL~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d52845e6c744cccf
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/27f90c384bcf02a6
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/524654ee25c81617
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CTer -- Of course, the classic was the DVP response that there must be
a lone-assassin explanation or else a brilliant man like Bugliosi
wouldn't believe in a lone assassin and surely his book will answer
the question. C'mon!!!
DVP (April 2006) -- Yes, I have basically said that, and shall stand
by that belief, because I think it's 100% true.
Conspiracy addicts, on the other side of the coin, are forced to
disagree with my VB assessment, with those CTers thinking (evidently)
that Vincent is stupid enough or enough of a WC/LN brown-nosing
"robot" to take 20+ years to write a pro-LN book about the JFK case,
when he MUST know that everything he's writing is pure crap.
I cannot wrap myself around that latter CT logic re. Vince Bugliosi
(particular VB, of all people). Never have. Never will.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cfb02505fe1534df
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CTer -- You know where Oswald was aiming? You know it for sure? How do
you know?
DVP -- I don't know to the exact SQUARE INCH where on JFK's body
Oswald was aiming, and neither do you. And I never claimed to know
such an impossible-to-determine thing.
But it's fairly obvious (via plain old common sense) that Oswald was
NOT aiming at the car's rear license plate, or at Jackie, or at Jean
Hill, or at Charles Brehm. He was aiming at JFK, and aiming to kill.
So where do you think he was aiming? His hands perhaps? Or his feet?
Sheesh.
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CTer -- Tell me what time Oswald left his rooming house?
DVP -- The exact time is unknown (quite obviously), since nobody was
taking detailed notes as to exactly when (to the precise minute) they
saw LHO on 11/22/63; and, of course, nobody had a stopwatch on him
either, as he was walking and/or running from Beckley Avenue to Tenth
Street in Oak Cliff that day.
But the best guess is that Oswald left his roominghouse at approx.
1:03 PM or 1:04 PM (CST). But my own personal guess is it was even
earlier than that; because there's no way (IMO) he was fiddling around
in that shoebox-sized room for "3 or 4 minutes", per housekeeper
Earlene Roberts' account. There would be absolutely no reason
(logically-speaking) for Oswald to have been in that room for more
than 30 seconds at most.
Was Mrs. Roberts lying? Of course she wasn't. But people have a habit
of stretching out time estimates to (incorrect) lengthier guesses when
they're asked to re-create "timelines".
I can think of two good examples of such "time stretching" within the
JFK case alone. One being J.C. Price, who witnessed the assassination
from the roof of the Terminal Annex Building on the south side of
Dealey Plaza. Price said the gunshots were possibly "5 minutes" apart:
"There was a volley of shots, and then much later, maybe as much as
five minutes later, another one." -- Via the 11/22/63 affidavit of
J.C. Price
Another oddity associated with J.C. Price's account of the
assassination is his belief that Kennedy and Connally were travelling
through Dealey Plaza in separate cars. But that's a matter for another
discussion altogether.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/price.htm
And then there's assassination witness James Altgens, whose estimate
for the total length of the shooting was "less than 30 seconds".
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm
Now, yes, Altgens was technically correct in his estimate, but a much-
better estimate, quite obviously, would not have included the
ridiculously-lengthy time period of "30 seconds" within such a piece
of guesswork.
Those extra CTer-created gunmen must have REALLY been popping away
with their 4 or 5 rifles indeed, for it to have taken half-a-minute
(or "5 minutes" even, per Mr. Price!) to dispose of their one target.
~LOL~
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CTer -- Tell me exactly how far {it was} from the rooming house to
10th and Patton.
DVP -- 0.85 miles. (Via Warren Commission Exhibit CE1119-A; Insert
A.) .....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce1119a.jpg
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CTer -- Tell me exactly what time Tippit was killed.
DVP -- That can only be estimated as well. But this "estimate" can
certainly be whittled down to a very few minutes, based on the
official Dallas Police radio logs (which we can only assume have the
correct time stamped to each transmission). Officer Tippit, therefore,
was definitely killed sometime shortly before 1:16 PM.
The whole notion that Oswald was innocent of J.D. Tippit's murder, as
many CTers believe, because he didn't have enough time to reach the
murder site, is completely a moot point based on the wealth of
evidence located at Tenth & Patton.....
E.g.,
1.) Multiple witnesses watching Oswald killing the officer, plus even
more people seeing Oswald (via positive I.D.) flee the scene, revolver
in hand, dumping shells along the way.
2.) The four bullet shells from Oswald's gun that some conspiracy
kooks, evidently, will foolishly insist were planted.
3.) Oswald's suspicious behavior after he killed Tippit.
4.) Oswald being arrested with the Tippit murder weapon on him in the
Texas Theater, wherein he pulls out the gun and fights like a wild
man.
This guy named Oswald sure seemed to be guilty of something here. Was
he willing to burn for murder just because he didn't pay the measly
movie-ticket fee?
The Warren Commission found that Oswald's under-one-mile trek from
Beckley to 10th Street could "easily" have been done (WR; Pg.
648). .....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0336b.htm
Also -- "Time tests of all of Oswald's movements establish that these
movements could have been accomplished in the time available to him."
-- WR; Pg. 649 .....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0337a.htm
Only a CT-Kook would demand absolute to-the-second exactness regarding
"timeline" evidence, when such exactitude is impossible to achieve.
But, then again, that's part of what makes those type of conspiracists
"kooks" in my estimation -- i.e., unreasonable demands so that they
can make mountains out of anthills and make guilty murderers seem
innocent.
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CTer -- Can you absolutely be sure that he {Tippit} wasn't BM {"Badge
Man"}?
DVP -- Beautiful. I now have to prove that Officer Tippit DIDN'T shoot
at JFK, instead of you proving that he DID. Nice.
I also love the "Twin Tale" of CT-ism that exists within the above-
referenced quote. In that single sentence, that CTer is suggesting two
things that never happened:
1.) The existence of a "Badge Man" assassin on the Grassy Knoll.
And:
2.) The allegation that J.D. Tippit (an innocent murder victim himself
in the 1963 Dallas tragedy) was somehow involved in the killing of the
President.
This appears to be a case of trying to kill two CT birds with one hunk
of "Badge Man" guesswork.
And, yes, the weight of the evidence re. Tippit's movements on
11/22/63 certainly suggests that he was not even close to Dealey Plaza
at 12:30 PM. But don't let that tidbit stop you kooks from accusing
him of various evil deeds. Please.
There are ZERO pieces of evidence to support Tippit's "involvement" in
JFK's death, which must mean (per the rabid CT supporters) that Tippit
WAS involved.*
* = It's that "badge" thing I guess. If there had been a little pair
of wings painted into the Badge Man fuzziness, then the kooks would
probably be saying it was David Ferrie behind that fence. Ferrie was a
pilot you see; so who else COULD it have been, per the CT thought
process. A drawn-in Fedora would have equalled Jack Ruby as the Knoll
shooter. A really skinny gunman drawn into the Mary Moorman Polaroid
photo would have meant Frank Sinatra was taking aim. It's obvious.
There's nothing uglier than a pro-conspiracy kook who wants to smear
J.D. Tippit and free Saint Oswald too. A double-bill of absurdity.
Wanna try for a triple-bill and place Tippit's wife in the Dal-Tex
with a gun too?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4d1790303e6fcc19
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CTer -- Here's your chance to convince me that Oswald killed Tippit.
DVP -- Any reasonable person looking at the evidence in the Tippit
case wouldn't require another person to "convince" them. I guess this
means that you are not a "reasonable" person who has looked at all of
the evidence that undeniably spells "Oswald Did It".
If you truly believe that Lee Harvey Oswald is innocent of J.D.
Tippit's slaying you probably belong in a padded room.