Re: LEE HARVEY OSWALD AND HOWARD BRENNAN
David Von Pein
http://www.JFKAssassinationForum.com/index.php/topic,1799.0.html
JON HAMBLETON SAID:
>>> "No evidence puts Lee Harvey Oswald on the sixth floor with his hands wrapped around the M-C rifle at 12:30 on 11/22/63. There is only circumstantial evidence that links him to the weapon (one of at least four) in evidence and that does not prove anything beyond a shadow of doubt." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Oswald's rifle was the murder weapon.
Oswald's prints were all over the place where the sniper was located
(DEEP INSIDE the Sniper's Nest).
Oswald lied repeatedly about things he would have no reason to lie
about if he was innocent. (Curtain rods, anyone? .... I never owned a
rifle. .... Shelley told me I could leave. .... I bought that pistol
in Fort Worth. .... I've never heard the name A.J. Hidell before. ....
That's my head pasted onto somebody else's body.)
Oswald was in the building when JFK was killed.
Oswald had no provable alibi for his whereabouts at 12:30.
Oswald LIED about his whereabouts at 12:30.
Oswald was, in effect, a POLITICAL ASSASSIN seven months prior to Nov.
22 (when he shot at Gen. Walker in April '63).
And finally:
http://OSWALD-IS-GUILTY.blogspot.com
And I didn't even mention the name Howard Brennan or the fact that
Oswald killed J.D. Tippit either.
Isn't it time for the Anybody-But-Oswald conspiracists to toss in the
towel and just admit that Sweet Lee wasn't all that sweet after all?
You have to twist the evidence into a great-big pretzel to believe
otherwise.
------------
ADDENDUM:
Every conspiracy theorist should be required to watch the following
video featuring David W. Belin of the Warren Commission. His speech is
loaded with ECS&F (Evidence, Common Sense, & Facts):
http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/01/david-belin-march-1992.html
"The very fact that [Oliver Stone's 1991 movie] 'JFK' adopts the
lies of Oswald and asserts that the [backyard] picture was part of a
frame-up is a vivid example of how a movie dedicated to the truth
incorporates outright lies together with misrepresentations and
omissions as the movie persuades its audience that Earl Warren and the
Warren Commission covered up the truth. ....
"The truth has a long fuse, and ultimately it prevails. Please
help shorten the length of that fuse by digging the way journalists
are supposed to dig and exposing the more than 100 major
misrepresentations, omissions, and lies that have been perpetrated by
Warner Brothers, [Kevin] Costner, and [Oliver] Stone. What they have
done is just plain evil. And intelligent people who care for our
country should not let them get away with it, particularly when they
are now trying to invade our public schools with their lies." -- David
W. Belin; March 26, 1992
COLIN CROW SAID:
>>> "Just a quick one David, a technicality really, would he [Oswald] really qualify as an assassin prior to 11/22/63. General Walker was still alive. I understood that to qualify as an assassin, one had to be successful. Perhaps incompetent, wanna-be assassin or even a possible conspirator in phony staged assassination attempts might even be arguable. As for your other stuff, yeah he lied about some stuff, he was obviously involved in something. Does it prove he pulled the trigger? Not neccessarily. As for Brennan, he did not see the shooter only the rifle. We've dealt with this before. [Amos] Euins was in a better position and had a better view (and younger eyes)." <<<
DVP SAID:
Colin,
What do you mean Brennan never saw the shooter?? Of COURSE Brennan SAW
the shooter--and later IDed him as Oswald.
COLIN CROW SAID:
>>> "David, check this thread [linked below]. Euins had a better angle to see the shooter.....saw him for longer also." <<<
http://www.JFKAssassinationForum.com/index.php/topic,1591.0.html
DVP SAID:
But to say Brennan never saw the shooter is just a lie, Colin. Simple
as that.
COLIN CROW SAID:
>>> "I apologise David, I posted in haste. The inference from your initial post was that Brennan ID'd Oswald as the shooter. I would argue that Brennan could not have ID'd anyone from what he saw in that window at the time of the 3rd shot. So my statement should have read........Brennan could not have ID'd anyone with certainty from what he saw in those seconds." <<<
DVP SAID:
But Brennan didn't ONLY see Oswald in the SN window "at the time of
the 3rd shot". Brennan saw the shooter (Oswald) in the window "a
couple of times" PRIOR to the third shot, giving Brennan MORE TIME to
see the shooter (whom he later positively said was Lee Oswald).
"I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to
my knowledge a couple of times." -- H.L. Brennan
EDIT: Or do you really want to argue that the "couple of times"
Brennan saw Oswald PRIOR to the firing of the third shot, Brennan
actually saw someone else and not Oswald? Or vice-versa?
You surely don't want to climb out on that shaky limb, do you Colin?
COLIN CROW SAID:
>>> "David, just because you said Oswald was an assassin before 11/22/63 (and he obviously wasn't), I wouldn't call that a lie. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to either carelessness or ignorance. ;)" <<<
DVP SAID:
Come now, Colin. I know you know a lot of the witness testimony
(probably by heart). And when you said this earlier....
"As for Brennan, he did not see the shooter only the rifle."
....What was I supposed to think? That statement IS a lie. Plain and
simple. You were implying that Brennan was akin to Bob Jackson or Mal
Couch (i.e., witnesses who saw ONLY THE GUN, not the "shooter"). And
you certainly know better than that.
COLIN CROW SAID:
>>> "So, you hold that Brennan's I.D. of Oswald (shaky as it was, but let's not even go there) was based on him seeing someone earlier. This guy did not have a rifle. He assumed that the first guy was the same person with the rifle because they were in the same window. Other people saw 2 people on the 6th Floor as I'm sure you are aware (not Brennan though). It was an understandable assumption from someone in his position, not neccessarily a valid one." <<<
DVP SAID:
In an earlier post, I added a paragraph regarding any potential theory
of yours about Brennan possibly seeing two different people in the SN
window; and I added those comments before I saw your last post
confirming that you actually seem to believe that (silly) theory.
COLIN CROW SAID:
>>> "David, Do you still think that Oswald was an assassin prior to the death of JFK?" <<<
DVP SAID:
You don't have to harp on that, Colin. I've since gone back to that
post and added two words -- "in effect".
COLIN CROW SAID:
>>> "NP [no problem] David, I am not all that easy about editing posts after the event (although I do occasionally, usually in a state of embarrassment to correct my appalling keyboard skills). To be honest David, my read of Brennan's testimony changed a bit during my analysis of it. .... It may have been one guy or 2 [that Brennan saw in the Sniper's Nest]. He was under enormous pressure and his actions were understandable. I do not think his testimony would have held up in trial. I don't believe he can be used to place Oswald in the window at the time of the last shot." <<<
DVP SAID:
And I can understand your reservations regarding Brennan. (Heck, if I
were unfortunate enough to be a conspiracy theorist, I too would
probably be saying the same things you are saying about Brennan--i.e.,
he couldn't have possibly positively identified Oswald in that window,
etc.)
But the fact REMAINS -- Howard Leslie Brennan DID positively I.D. Lee
Oswald as the man he saw firing a rifle at President Kennedy in Dealey
Plaza. And conspiracy theorists will just have to live with that FACT.
Just as lone-assassin believers like me will have to forever live with
the head-scratching fact that many witnesses at Parkland and Bethesda
seemed to think that JFK had a great-big hole in the BACK of his head
(a hole that was never there, of course, and the authenticated autopsy
photos and X-rays prove that there was no hole in the back of the
President's head; but that's another discussion altogether).
Yes, it's true that Brennan did not positively identify Oswald as the
TSBD gunman ON NOVEMBER 22ND. But he did later state to the Warren
Commission a reason for his not doing so. And, IMO, the reason was a
perfectly understandable one -- he feared for the life of himself and
his family.
Plus, conspiracy theorists often overlook the fact that the same
Howard Brennan filled out an official sworn affidavit ON NOVEMBER
22ND, which includes a description of the sixth-floor assassin....and
that description is a pretty decent GENERAL description of the
"slender white man" named Lee Harvey Oswald.
And I'll also remind you of another witness--Marrion Baker--who also
stated that it was his belief that the man he encountered on the 2nd
Floor just after the assassination was a man who was "approximately 30
years old", which is an (incorrect) age estimate that perfectly
matches the age estimate supplied by Howard Brennan in all of his
descriptions over the years for the sixth-floor assassin.
And, of course, we know for a FACT who it was that Baker ran into on
the second floor that day--Lee Harvey Oswald.
HOWARD BRENNAN'S 11/22/63 AFFIDAVIT:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan1.htm
MARRION BAKER'S 11/22/63 AFFIDAVIT:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Anyway, as I also stated in an earlier post in this thread which
included a nice long laundry list of "Oswald Is Guilty" items, Howard
Brennan isn't even needed to hang Oswald for Jack Kennedy's murder.
Howard is merely a small layer of icing on an already well-frosted
cake.
===================================
MORE BRENNAN BANTER:
HOWARD L. BRENNAN -- EYEWITNESS TO A TRAGEDY:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a83751f6ce319004
MORE ON HOWARD BRENNAN (WITH ANOTHER VINCENT BUGLIOSI IMITATION
TOSSED INTO THE MIX, JUST FOR FUN):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d26167f23399f7d6
===================================
IN RESPONSE TO ONE OF MY POINTS RELATING TO OSWALD'S GUILT, PAUL
DANZIG SAID (PREDICTABLY):
>>> "Oswald was in the building when the president was shot....Oh WOW.....Better hang Oswald from the tallest tree." <<<
DVP SAID (WHILE SIGHING HEAVILY, BECAUSE I KNEW THAT SOME CONSPIRACY
THEORIST WAS GOING TO CHASTISE ME FOR JUST THIS VERY THING):
Bulletin! --- In order to shoot someone from INSIDE a certain
building, the shooter must be INSIDE that building when the victim is
shot!
That particular item on my laundry list was, of course, merely
corroborative, fitting in nicely with ALL THAT OTHER STUFF that CTers
love to ignore and misrepresent constantly.
Was I supposed to LEAVE OUT the fact that OSWALD was, indeed, inside
the building at 12:30 as the President was being killed with OSWALD'S
rifle?
Geez.
lazu...@webtv.net
Oswald acted alone..fine, but who the hell cares!
The majority of folks have flushed the lone nut theory down the toilet
bowl of history...along with your heroes-Hoover, LBJ, Dulles..etc..Laz
Walt
> Well..if you are stupid enough and dishonest enough to still believing
> Oswald acted alone..fine, but who the hell cares!
Oswald didn't "act" at all..... He told a reporter ...."No, sir, I
didn't shoot anybody" When the reporter asked him if he'd shot the
President.
I know some folks simply can't pull aside the curtain that was dropped
by Lynin Bastard Johnson's "Blue Ribbon Committee", the Warren
Commission, and see the truth, but if they could peek behind that
curtain, they would know that Oswald was exactly what he said he
was...."A patsy".
I'm perplexed by the number of people who continue to stumble around
in the dark and can't see the obvious. ALL of the evidence indicates
that Oswald was set up to take the blame by a well planned cabal of
rich powerful conspirators. Forty years ago those people could be
excused for being in the dark ( because many of the facts were still
being hidden by the government) but there's no excuse for any
intelligent honest researcher to continue to stumble around in the
dark today.
Oswald was the designated patsy...... He undoubtedly and unwittingly
helped the plotters set him up to be the patsy. He was playing a
role in a staged hoax, while the plotters were conspiring to murder
JFK.
Walt
Hey, Von Pea Brain...... Isn't it time for you to give it up.....
Everybody in this NG knows that you are a liar and spinmeister.
You continue to post the same old lies time after time, and everybody
know it.
You/ve been toll many many times that Howard Brennan DESCRIBED a
gunman on the sixth floor who was NOT Oswald. The gunman that Brennan
saw was ten years older than LHO, He was 35 pounds heavier than LHO
and he was dressed in LIGHT COLORED clothing, while Oswald was dressed
in DARK COLORED clothing at the time of the shoting.
These are FACTS..... I know that you don't want to believe them,
because you're a gutless coward who is afraid of the truth and you're
a arrogant elitist snob who thinks he's got the truth and anybody who
disagrees with you is just a "Kook".
> MORE ON HOWARD BRENNAN (WITH ANOTHER VINCENT BUGLIOSI ...
>
> read more »
David Von Pein
>>> "You continue to post the same old lies time after time, and everybody know it." <<<
Who's got that great-big neon sign that says: "POT MEET KETTLE!!"?? I
need it here--badly.
>>> "You've been toll [sic] many many times that Howard Brennan DESCRIBED a gunman on the sixth floor who was NOT Oswald. The gunman that Brennan saw was ten years older than LHO, he was 35 pounds heavier than LHO and he was dressed in LIGHT COLORED clothing, while Oswald was dressed in DARK COLORED clothing at the time of the shooting." <<<
Here we have a mega-idiot named Walter pretending that I haven't
thrashed him beyond beyond regarding the intolerable way he has
mangled and misrepresented the Warren Commission testimony of Howard
Leslie Brennan.
Refresher course on Brennan (for the kook named Walt):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7d3264251021ff76
>>> "You're a gutless coward who is afraid of the truth and you're a [sic] arrogant elitist snob who thinks he's got the truth and anybody who disagrees with you is just a "Kook"." <<<
Not everybody, Walt. Just the retards who belong to the "Anybody But
Oswald" club. Like you.
Walt
> >>> "You continue to post the same old lies time after time, and everybody know it." <<<
>
> Who's got that great-big neon sign that says: "POT MEET KETTLE!!"?? I
> need it here--badly.
>
> >>> "You've been toll [sic] many many times that Howard Brennan DESCRIBED a gunman on the sixth floor who was NOT Oswald. The gunman that Brennan saw was ten years older than LHO, he was 35 pounds heavier than LHO and he was dressed in LIGHT COLORED clothing, while Oswald was dressed in DARK COLORED clothing at the time of the shooting." <<<
>
> Here we have a mega-idiot named Walter pretending that I haven't
> thrashed him beyond beyond regarding the intolerable way he has
> mangled and misrepresented the Warren Commission testimony of Howard
> Leslie Brennan.
Hey Von Pea Brain.... I'm sure you don't have the guts to answer four
simple questions.....But a non answer is as good as an answer..because
if you don't answer the questions you'll be verifying that you are a
gutless maggot...and if you answer them by lying you'll be verifying
that you a lying gutless maggot.
What color did Howard Brennan say the sixth floor gunman's shirt was??
What color did the Warren Commission say Oswald's shirt was?
What color did Brennan say the gunman's trousers were?
What color did were the trousers that the cops retrieved from Oswald's
dresser?
dcwi...@yahoo.com
> http://www.JFKAssassinationForum.com/index.php/topic,1799.0.html
>
> JON HAMBLETON SAID:
>
> >>> "No evidence puts Lee Harvey Oswald on the sixth floor with his hands wrapped around the M-C rifle at 12:30 on 11/22/63. There is only circumstantial evidence that links him to the weapon (one of at least four) in evidence and that does not prove anything beyond a shadow of doubt." <<<
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Oswald's rifle was the murder weapon.
>
> Oswald's prints were all over the place where the sniper was located
> (DEEP INSIDE the Sniper's Nest).
>
> Oswald lied repeatedly about things he would have no reason to lie
> about if he was innocent. (Curtain rods, anyone? .... I never owned a
> rifle. .... Shelley told me I could leave. .... I bought that pistol
> in Fort Worth. .... I've never heard the name A.J. Hidell before. ....
> That's my head pasted onto somebody else's body.)
>
> Oswald was in the building when JFK was killed.
>
> Oswald had no provable alibi for his whereabouts at 12:30.
But he sure comes close when he sez he saw Norman & Jarman near the
back door of the depository. True, he does not specify exactly when
he saw them come in there, but Norman's testimony puts their return at
about 12:24, which would pretty much rule out Oswald as on the 6th
floor at 12:30....
> MORE ON HOWARD BRENNAN (WITH ANOTHER VINCENT BUGLIOSI ...
>
> read more »
dcwi...@yahoo.com
>
> JON HAMBLETON SAID:
>
> >>> "No evidence puts Lee Harvey Oswald on the sixth floor with his hands wrapped around the M-C rifle at 12:30 on 11/22/63. There is only circumstantial evidence that links him to the weapon (one of at least four) in evidence and that does not prove anything beyond a shadow of doubt." <<<
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Oswald's rifle was the murder weapon.
>
> Oswald's prints were all over the place where the sniper was located
> (DEEP INSIDE the Sniper's Nest).
>
> Oswald lied repeatedly about things he would have no reason to lie
> about if he was innocent. (Curtain rods, anyone? .... I never owned a
> rifle. .... Shelley told me I could leave. .
Not necessarily a lie. Shelley said he left the depository for
questioning in the same car as Bonnie Ray Williams & Danny Arce.
Williams said only he & Arce were there. Upshot: Shelley may have
left the building, too....
> MORE ON HOWARD BRENNAN (WITH ANOTHER VINCENT BUGLIOSI ...
>
> read more »
dcwi...@yahoo.com
>
> JON HAMBLETON SAID:
>
> >>> "No evidence puts Lee Harvey Oswald on the sixth floor with his hands wrapped around the M-C rifle at 12:30 on 11/22/63. There is only circumstantial evidence that links him to the weapon (one of at least four) in evidence and that does not prove anything beyond a shadow of doubt." <<<
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Oswald's rifle was the murder weapon.
>
> Oswald's prints were all over the place where the sniper was located
> (DEEP INSIDE the Sniper's Nest).
>
> Oswald lied repeatedly about things he would have no reason to lie
> about if he was innocent. (Curtain rods, anyone? .... I never owned a
> rifle. .... Shelley told me I could leave.
This is actually an LN exaggeration. According to Fritz, Hosty, &
Bookhout, it wasn't that cut & dry.
Fritz note re O interview: "out with Bill Shelley in front
left wk opinion nothing be done that day"
Fritz report (WR p600): "I asked why he left the building, & he said
there was so much excitement he didn't think there would be any more
work done that day... & he thought it would be just as well that he
left for the rest of the afternoon"
Hosty-Bookhout report (WR p613): "After hearing what had happened, he
said that because of all the confusion there would be no work
performed that afternoon so he decided to go home"
Bookhout report (WR p619): O "went outside & stood around for 5 or 10
minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, & thereafter went home. He stated
that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill
Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be any more work
that day...."
Fritz's report & the Hosty-Bookhout report don't even mention
Shelley. The Fritz note & the Bookhout report make it pretty clear
that (as per O) Shelley was saying to whomever that there probably
wouldn't be much work done that afternoon, & O simply seized on that
observation as an excuse to leave. Nowhere do Fritz, Hosty or
Bookhout state that Oswald said Shelley told him that he could leave.
> MORE ON HOWARD BRENNAN (WITH ANOTHER VINCENT BUGLIOSI ...
>
> read more »
David Von Pein
>>> "You've been tol[d] many many times that Howard Brennan DESCRIBED a gunman on the sixth floor who was NOT Oswald. The gunman that Brennan saw was ten years older than LHO, he was 35 pounds heavier than LHO and he was dressed in LIGHT COLORED clothing, while Oswald was dressed in DARK COLORED clothing at the time of the shoting." <<<
For those who aren't aware of this, Howard Brennan POSITIVELY
IDENTIFIED Lee H. Oswald as the ONE AND ONLY person/gunman he saw on
the sixth floor of the Book Depository.
Walt takes great pleasure in totally manipulating and mangling (in
extremely hilarious ways) the Warren Commission testimony of Howard L.
Brennan, with Walt deciding that Brennan saw a gunman on the WEST side
of the Depository, despite the testimony of Brennan which proves
exactly the opposite (via the words of Brennan himself, PLUS the TWO
different WC exhibits that Brennan marked--with both exhibits
featuring circles drawn by Brennan around the EAST-end window on the
sixth floor).
Walt ignores these facts, however, in order to promote his belief that
a shooter was firing at JFK from the other (west) end of the building.
But any sensible person who looks at Howard Brennan's WC testimony can
only come to one conclusion regarding the location of the gunman that
Brennan saw -- and that conclusion is: Brennan saw a gunman firing
shots from the east end of the TSBD's sixth floor.
Only a person with an I.Q. somewhere between a potato chip and a rusty
nail could possibly believe a single thing that Walter Cakebread has
said about Howard Brennan's testimony.