Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 5)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From July 2003, December
2004, June 2005, November 2005, and March 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- The autopsy report was "adjusted" to
fit the scenario of only one shooter firing from the TSBD, even though
NUMEROUS witnesses (not the 5% DVP claims) stated otherwise.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- You'd better read my "5%" comment again.
You've misstated it (on purpose??). I never said that "5%" of the
witnesses heard shots from non-Depository locations.
What I said was -- quote -- "Did the conspirators also just "luck out"
when very, very few witnesses (less than 5% total) said that they
heard shots coming FROM MORE THAN ONE DIRECTION? (And the vast
majority of these witnesses heard shots from BEHIND the President's
car, from the direction of the School Book Depository.)" -- DVP
That extremely low percentage of witnesses claiming they heard shots
from more than just one location is a very telling figure. I'd ask --
What are the odds of (approx.) 95% of all Dealey Plaza witnesses (who
gave an opinion on the matter) hearing shots from only ONE single
location in DP (whether it be a rear or a frontal locale) and there
still actually having been BOTH rear and frontal shooters located
throughout the Plaza?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/shots4.jpg
Just a small handful of the witnesses who provided an opinion as to
the source of the gunshots said they heard shots from BOTH the rear
and the front. They almost ALL said either one location or the other.
A very telling stat, IMO. And a stat that does not favor "conspiracy",
because even conspiracy buffs agree that some shots came from the
Depository.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7b06a89bd4042363
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CTer -- You're telling us that Oswald fired his rifle in Dealey Plaza
with world-class speed and precision, but can't hit {General Edwin}
Walker standing still just yards away.
DVP -- My point on the Walker v. Kennedy thing is just this: It is NOT
possible to eliminate Oswald as a suspect in the JFK killing SOLELY
BASED ON HIS MISS OF GENERAL WALKER! It's illogical to do so.
Why would anyone place this blanket assumption over Oswald regarding
these two shootings...or ANY two shootings? He might very well have
never hit his target with a rifle in his life and might still have
performed the deed in Dallas. Who knows? But to claim that he couldn't
possibly have accomplished the Dallas shooting based on the Walker
miss in April (or ANY other shooting attempt) is crazy.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walker.txt
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CTer -- Mr. Von Pein is assuming that Oswald killed Tippit.
DVP -- Darn right I assume that. Nothing could be more obvious in this
whole case in fact. Is it your contention that Oswald was not even at
the scene of Officer J.D. Tippit's murder?
If so, is it just a mere coincidence that we have Mr. Oswald fleeing
into the nearby Texas Theater just minutes later?
For, if Lee Oswald did NOT shoot Tippit, we then must assume that he
just happened to be walking in the neighborhood of the slaying, and
then, even though he DIDN'T kill the officer, is seen acting
suspiciously as he loiters in the entrance of the Hardy's Shoe Store
and is observed by Johnny Brewer entering the theater without buying a
ticket.
Oswald certainly acted like he'd just committed a crime of some ilk,
didn't he? Was he just being cooperative, in order to be "set up" more
conveniently?
Eyewitness testimony PLUS Oswald's just BEING IN THIS AREA IMMEDIATELY
AFTER THE TIPPIT KILLING is certainly hard evidence to overlook,
wouldn't you agree?
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CTer -- The evidence that Oswald shot Tippit is weak.
DVP -- Forgive my bluntness....but you're nuts! After assessing the
facts in the Tippit case, anyone who states this blatant falsehood --
"The evidence that Oswald shot Tippit is weak" -- is a person who does
not deserve a solitary bit of respect and is a person who obviously
WANTS to have Oswald innocent of killing Officer J.D. Tippit (no
matter how much evidence exists to say he was guilty).
And that same person who can arrogantly and falsely claim "The
evidence that Oswald shot Tippit is weak" is more than likely a person
who is so buried in "conspiracy" thoughts that no amount of common
sense and logical thinking will be able to pull the CT blinders off of
that person's eyes.
And I'm still stumped (and always will be I guess) as to the question
of why no conspiracy theorist can manage to evaluate anything
regarding the assassination from a PRE-November 22 standpoint (in
order to see
the general mayhem and illogic and downright silliness that the widely-
accepted-as-true "Oswald Was A Patsy" plot would have created).
Any assassins who would have NEEDED only Oswald fingered for the TWO
murders on 11/22/63 must have all (to a man!) been under the influence
of large quantities of hallucinogenic drugs when they decided to place
many shooters in Dealey Plaza (and on 10th Street for Tippit's
killing, as many CTers advocate).
And these powerful drugs must have also had some crazy type of
"Miracles Are Possible" effect on all of the shooters and the assorted
behind-the-scenes schemers and henchmen who worked on the plot in
their Conspiracy BatCave. Because only a miracle of the highest order
could have rescued such a cuckoo multi-shooter "Patsy" plan from
certain failure on November 22, 1963.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4d1790303e6fcc19
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CTer -- Oswald was fleeing into the theater? Why didn't he flee into
Brewer's store? He was already there, wasn't he?
DVP -- If you were on the run from having just committed a murder in
front of several eyewitnesses and had a choice of hiding in a well-lit
shoe shoppe or a nice, darkened movie theater....which would you
choose? Not a very difficult decision, is it?
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CTer -- This is a man {Oswald} who you contend killed the President
with no surefire means of escape, gets on a bus, then in a taxi, goes
home, gets his pistol, runs a mile in 4 minutes, shoots and kills a
police officer, then does everything he can to draw attention to
himself by first ducking into a shoe store and then a movie theater
without paying. Is this your scenario?
DVP -- Well. Pert near. Except for the part about Oswald doing
everything he can to draw attention to himself and running a four-
minute mile. He had more than four minutes to travel the 0.85 of a
mile from his roominghouse on Beckley Avenue to the scene of Tippit's
murder on Tenth Street.
Oswald left his roominghouse at approx. 1:03, and Tippit was killed at
approx. 1:14. He, therefore, had about 11 minutes (give or take) to
get there. It could easily be traversed in that amount of time.
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CTer -- If he {Oswald} were guilty of killing the President and hell-
bent on escaping, why didn't he call a cab from his rooming house? A
cab got him safely out of Dealey Plaza, didn't it?
DVP -- This taxi cab suggestion seems kinda nutty. Because if I'm a
murderer, then I certainly don't want to hang around my lodgings very
long, where the authorities will no doubt be showing up before too
long since I had no choice (due to obvious time restraints placed upon
my murdering little shoulders) and had to ditch the assembled rifle on
the sixth floor of the Book Depository, from where the police will
easily trace it back to me.
So I'm certainly not going to hang around the front stoop of my home
address waiting for a cab to get there.
Instead, I'm going to start hoofin' it....which is just what Oswald
did (probably at a fairly brisk pace, which shouldn't be too
surprising to anyone).
If Lee Harvey Oswald was not guilty, then it's a fairly safe bet that
John F. Kennedy and J.D. Tippit were not killed at all on November
22nd, 1963. (They must both be in hiding at Roswell or something.)
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CTer -- So I take it that you do not agree with the official version
that Oswald planned this murder well in advance, as {Dallas D.A.
Henry} Wade had stated to the press.
DVP -- Well, if Mr. Wade's idea of "well in advance" is no longer than
three to six days (and probably closer to one or two) -- then I'd
agree with him. Otherwise, I'd disagree vigorously with the "well in
advance" statement.
But there's no way Oswald's "plan" to shoot the President from his
workplace could possibly have exceeded six days; and, as I said,
probably three days or less is more likely.
This 3-to-6-day timeline, of course, is due to when he could have
known for certain the following information:
1.) If there would be any motorcade through the Dallas streets at all.
2.) What route would be finalized for any such motorcade.
3.) What specific time on November 22 any such motorcade would pass
through Dallas.
None of the above three points could have been known by Oswald until
Saturday, November 16, 1963, at the earliest (which is the date the
Dallas newspapers published information about JFK's impending visit
and motorcade drive through the city, sans exact routing).
The finalized route was published in the two Dallas papers on Tuesday,
November 19th. So that's the earliest date when Oswald could have
known for certain if he'd have a chance at shooting at the President
from his working establishment -- and not a day before. .....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pages/WH_Vol22_0323a.jpg
He could have GUESSED that a motorcade passing the TSBD on "Main
Street" might occur (as it said in the 11/16 editions of the Dallas
papers); but his plan couldn't have included any full knowledge of the
final routing until 11/19/63. So that's just three (to six) total days
when he could have "planned" anything in detail.
In fact, even the Dallas Police Dept. (and the press at large) didn't
know about the Dallas trip (much less the final motorcade routing)
until mid-November, when Pierre Salinger announced the President's
Florida and Texas trips to the press.
So, I guess it depends on one's definition of "well in advance". To
me, three days or six days isn't "well in advance".
Plus, let me state that I personally believe that Oswald hatched his
murder plan on either Wednesday, November 20th or Thursday, November
21st (A.M.), which is when (Thursday morning that is) he asked Wesley
Frazier for the unusual weekday ride to Irving for the first time
since his TSBD employment began on October 16th.
If he had planned it too much earlier, it's very likely (IMO) that he
would have removed his rifle from Ruth Paine's garage at an earlier
date, rather than his last-day rifle-retrieving efforts at the Paine
home the night before he shot the President.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/64195df0086af9b4
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/182cecc7c4e37bb2
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CTer -- I just can't see how your hero, Mr. {Vincent} Bugliosi, will
find anything new. He will just put a different slant on what already
exists.
DVP (December 20, 2004) -- You might very well be correct in this
regard. But the difference is: Mr. Bugliosi himself, and the logic he
applies to every single aspect of every case he's involved in. And the
JFK case will certainly be no exception. In fact, his research will be
FAR GREATER than that of a "current" case that he has a deadline for.
It's hard to begin to imagine the thoughtfulness, preparation, logic,
and investigation that he's put into a 20-plus-years-in-the-making
project like his book on the JFK assassination case.
I think perhaps the two words that might best describe Vincent
Bugliosi's John F. Kennedy assassination book will be "Staggeringly
Complete".
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cfb02505fe1534df
http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring07/004525.htm
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CTer -- DVP, your placement of the entrance wound above the shoulder
line, sharply upwards of the exit in the throat, is complete and utter
nonsense.
DVP -- The wound IS where it is...period! Why is it such a mysterious
thing that nobody can seem to figure out?
The wound was in President Kennedy's upper back, just about at the
junction where the shoulder line meets the base of the neck, as we can
see here:
www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/images/BE5_HI.jpg
That wound was measured 14 cm. from the lower tip of JFK's right
Mastoid Process, which positively puts it HIGHER than the throat exit/
(trach) wound.
And no amount of foot-stomping any CTer does is going to change these
basic stats and facts re. the location of those wounds on JFK's body.
But I'm sure the CT-Kooks will continue to try to get the back wound
BELOW the throat wound.
Just simply do a general measurement from JFK's neck crimp. No way
that upper-back wound can be LOWER than the throat hole. No way. For
God sake, just look, and do a loose estimate/measurement for yourself
(as you toggle between these two autopsy pictures linked below):
www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/images/BE5_HI.jpg
www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/images/jfk_zeroang.jpg
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d1d7ea222703d800
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CTer -- How do you imagine 5-1/2 inches of clothing bunched up above
that location? Was Kennedy's jacket draped over his head?
DVP -- Attempting to utilize the victim's clothing as any kind of
accurate measuring device with respect to where the bullet holes were
located on the victim is a foolish exercise...as you surely must know.
Take John Connally's jacket as a prime example of how foolish an
exercise that is. We know that the bullet that exited Connally's chest
(just below the right nipple) is not even close to where we find the
bullet hole in his suit coat, here....
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/4108.jpg
....So should I now start up a wild conspiracy theory about Governor
Connally being shot in a different location, based on that jacket
hole?
Is that JBC jacket hole kinda odd? Yes, I think it is. But that's the
way it is. Period. Why should Kennedy's clothing be treated any
differently?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- I think {Secret Service agents} Kinney and Hickey realized
they shouldn't have tampered with the evidence, and left it {Bullet
CE399} on a stretcher they believed to be Kennedy's.
DVP -- Stupid SS agents indeed. They couldn't even tell Kennedy's
stretcher from Connally's...even though Kennedy's stretcher never left
the general area of the Emergency Room on the first floor; whereas
Connally was in a completely-different ER.
Silly agents.
BTW, do you have a scrap of proof that Kinney/Hickey moved that
bullet?
Didn't think so.
You are merely inventing crazy and unprovable bullet-moving scenarios
to support your pre-determined "Something's Suspicious Here" CT
mindset.
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CTer -- The limo was cleaned up....and bullet fragments were removed.
DVP -- Some tiny bullet fragments (mixed in with the blood that the
stupid SS agent was wiping out of the limo) were probably "removed"
from the car before anything had been recovered from the vehicle. But
they certainly weren't removed as part of some shady cover-up
operation.
So, does that mean the WHOLE rest of the case against Lee Harvey
Oswald is supposed to be tossed into the nearest trash can, just
because some stupid SS agent wiped up some blood in the car?
Is the WHOLE CASE now tainted due to this obviously-silly move by
whoever it was who did it (and ordered it)?
And does the "limo clean-up" suddenly negate these words that appear
in JFK's official autopsy report? (If it does negate this passage,
please tell me why it does so.).....
"It is our opinion that the deceased died as a result of two
perforating gunshot wounds inflicted by high-velocity projectiles. The
projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above the
level of the deceased."
http://www.jfklancer.com/autopsyrpt.html
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e2a229774508e859
tomnln
WRONG AGAIN David:
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1173507587.8...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
eca...@tx.rr.com
points.. Among them this one:
DVP ON------------
"That extremely low percentage of witnesses claiming they heard shots
from more than just one location is a very telling figure. I'd ask --
What are the odds of (approx.) 95% of all Dealey Plaza witnesses (who
gave an opinion on the matter) hearing shots from only ONE single
location in DP (whether it be a rear or a frontal locale) and there
still actually having been BOTH rear and frontal shooters located
throughout the Plaza?"
I am beginning to think you make
your points even better than Dr
John McAdams..
Regards,
Ed
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4d1790303e6fcc19
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> CTer -- Oswald was fleeing into the theater? Why didn't he flee into
> Brewer's store? He was already there, wasn't he?
>
> DVP -- If you were on the run from having just committed a murder in
> front of several eyewitnesses and had a choice of hiding in a well-lit
> shoe shoppe or a nice, darkened movie theater....which would you
> choose? Not a very difficult decision, is it?
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> CTer -- This is a man {Oswald} who you contend killed the President
> with no surefire means of escape, gets on a bus, then in a taxi, goes
> home, gets his pistol, runs a mile in 4 minutes, shoots and kills a
> police officer, then does everything he can to draw attention to
> himself by first ducking into a shoe store and then a movie theater
> without paying. Is this your scenario?
>
> DVP -- Well. Pert near. Except for the part about Oswald doing
> everything he can to draw attention to himself and running a four-
> minute mile. He had more than four minutes to travel the 0.85 of a
> mile from his roominghouse on Beckley Avenue to the scene of Tippit's
> murder on Tenth Street.
>
> Oswald left his roominghouse at approx. 1:03, and Tippit was killed at
> approx. 1:14. He, therefore, had about 11 minutes (give or take) to
> get there. It could easily be traversed in that amount of time.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
> read more ยป...
David Von Pein
Thanks, Ed.
But I must give full credit to John McAdams (and his top-notch
website) for that particular point you highlighted above (re. the low
pct. of "Multi-Directional" witnesses).
Mr. McAdams has a terrific breakdown of the witnesses on his website,
and that is where I first became aware of the incredibly low
percentage of witnesses who heard shots from more than just a single
general location/direction.
Here's that informative webpage: