Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 41)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From February 2005, April
2005, September 2005, and February 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Anybody {including David Belin} who
sees the Zapruder Film, and sees the violent reaction of JFK flying
backwards, and then suddenly shouts "NEUROSPASM" as the reason--
without any medical training--is clearly lying through his teeth and
making stuff up on the fly.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Even though Belin KNEW (as we all do) that JFK
had JUST ONE BULLET HOLE OF ENTRANCE IN HIS HEAD (and that entry hole
was in the REAR of the head)...right, Mr. CTer?
Anybody looking at the Z-Film, plus being armed with the previously-
mentioned IRONCLAD, IRREVOCABLE fact of JFK having just ONE entry hole
in the REAR of his head, would be obliged to find a logical reason
WITHIN THE KNOWN "ONE ENTRY HOLE" EVIDENCE for why JFK's head moves in
the manner it does on the Zapruder Film.
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CTer -- Belin's methods and spouting off without any real evidence are
also known to be highly despicable.
DVP -- Belin, one of the top workhorses for the Warren Commission, had
no "REAL EVIDENCE" to work with?? That's one of the silliest things
I've read in a long time.
Belin was just proceeding by the seat of his pants, I guess. Right?
Those bullets and shells and guns and prints and verified lies told by
Oswald (on NATIONAL T.V. on occasion!) are not to be considered items
of "real evidence"...right?
Holy smokes, what a kook!
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CTer -- Here is what the evidence indicates: The first bullet (CE399)
went through JFK's neck and into JBC's thigh. ... The second bullet
went through JBC's chest and wrist.
DVP -- Bull. The evidence supports no such nonsense. Your first-bullet
scenario is totally impossible, given the 1,775 fps velocity of the
bullet coming out of JFK's neck. It would have certainly shattered
Connally's femur at that speed, plus done lots more leg damage to boot
(per Dr. John Lattimer's tests and via WC testimony from others with
an opinion on the matter as well).
And your second-bullet scenario is also impossible for another variety
of reasons....the most obvious being: NO WAY THAT BULLET GETS TO
CONNALLY WITHOUT GOING THROUGH KENNEDY FIRST.
Plus, without going through JFK first, Connally's wrist would probably
have been pulverized beyond repair. Lattimer did tests on that too,
with much greater wrist damage sustained by mock JBCs if the bullet
does not go through a simulated neck first.
Spit on Lattimer's tests if that's your bag -- but try to answer this:
How likely is it that virtually EVERY test that Dr. Lattimer performed
with a Carcano rifle and WCC/MC ammunition would end up supporting and
buttressing the general "LN" scenario if, in fact, multiple shots from
varying angles had actually struck the victims?
Were the plotters so incredibly fortunate that even SIMULATIONS and
exacting RE-CREATIONS of the shooting variables and evidence could be
duplicated with such sterling "Pro-LN" results (even when, per CTers,
the shooting was really achieved in a totally-different, multi-gun
fashion)?
Is there no END to the conspirators' good fortune?
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CTer -- There is absolutely no limit to the number of people who are
willing to cooperate in the cover-up.
DVP -- To get even FIVE total people to be willing to subvert and
taint the official Government inquiry into a murdered U.S. Chief
Executive would be stretching the numbers to the max, IMO.
"No limit"?? LOL. Get real. And enter the world known as "Earth" for a
minute or so. You really think that HUNDREDS of people were willing to
sell their souls and allow the "Real Killers" to roam free, while
framing dear, sweet innocent Oswald?
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CTer -- Someone wanting to forge photos might have only one reference
photo of Oswald looking straight forward and need to use it for all
the photos.
DVP -- Idiocy abounds via this theory. JUST ONE PHOTO would be ample.
Actually, zero backyard photos are required in the first place;
because the photos prove nothing at all. And even without ANY of those
backyard pictures, Oswald is tied to all of the following via multiple
other means: Russia, Rifle C2766, and the revolver on his hip.
Therefore, "faking" any photos of Lee Oswald with his weapons would be
a superfluous and reckless proposition.
Not to even mention the potential danger of actually PLANTING the pics
in the Paine garage without a single non-conspirator taking notice, as
per the crackpot CT norm in these "planting" instances.
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CTer -- Marina stated she took one {backyard photo}. She was coerced
into admitting to taking two. Who took the third one?
DVP -- Marina Oswald was always a bit fuzzy when it came to
remembering the exact number of photos she took of LHO on 03/31/63 in
the backyard at Neely Street.
However, there are two undeniable facts with regard to the infamous
backyard photographs:
1.) Marina knows for a fact she took SOME pictures of her oddball
husband, Lee, that spring day in 1963.
2.) Lee Harvey Oswald signed the back of one of the pictures, thereby
verifying without doubt that LHO himself was aware that the photos
existed and were genuine articles -- which, of course, thereby renders
his comments to police about them being "fakes" unreliable and false.
To believe otherwise is to actually believe that there are a
COMBINATION of "Real" and "Fake" backyard photos in existence, and
that all of these pictures (somehow) "meld" together to show an
identical overall "scene"....depicting a person dressed in black
holding weapons, newspapers, and with a gun belt and holster.
That is not a logical conclusion given what we know is FACT here. It
is also just plain stupid on the part of any conspirators. For why
would any ADDITIONAL pictures be required (showing Lee Oswald with his
weaponry), when one such photo ALREADY EXISTED in the first place?
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CTer -- Apparently you accepted a report which you have not even read.
The slugs {in J.D. Tippit's body} did NOT match the shells.
DVP -- And I never once said the actual bullets matched the shells.
It's the shells (all 4 of them) that matched Oswald's gun, to the
exclusion of all other weapons. That's what I said.
And by way of this evidence, plus the fact that all four shells were
dropped at the Tippit scene AT THE TIME OF THE KILLING by Oswald
himself -- there is no logical choice left BUT to conclude that
Oswald's gun performed the killing on 10th Street.
Any other conclusion forces you to make the wildly-crazy assertion
that a non-Oswald gun plugged Tippit, and by mere coincidence there
happened to be four spent bullet shells from a DIFFERENT GUN
(Oswald's) littering the Davis yard on 10th Street.
Or are we supposed to believe that all four shells were "planted"
there, like most everything else in the case (per the CTers)? Did the
cops just happen to have four spent shells from Oswald's .38 on them,
just in case some "planting" would be necessary? That's hogwash of the
kookiest kind there.
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CTer -- The gun used by Oswald in the theater was not the same weapon,
as it had a misfiring pin.
DVP -- Therefore, in your view, we should simply ignore the fact that
four spent shells on Tenth Street were matched conclusively to
Oswald's gun (the same gun he had on him when he was arrested).
Correct?
And even if you want to argue about the "Poe shells", there are still
two shells left with a clear and completely-unambiguous chain of
custody (even by most CTer standards), leading straight into Oswald's
gun.
That firing pin (if it indeed was damaged) could very well have
sustained the damage AFTER Tippit was struck by four of Oswald's
bullets -- and obviously any such damage DID happen afterward
(probably when Officer McDonald jammed his hand in the weapon while
trying to avoid being the second Dallas cop slain by the bastard on
November 22).
Let's keep repeating the CT refrain (yet again) and see if it sounds
any more convincing with each utterance --- "It Couldn't Have Been
Oswald! It Couldn't Have Been Oswald! It Couldn't Have....."
Not very convincing. And, frankly, quite laughable after so many years
of unsupportable evidence being put forth by conspiracy buffs who
continue to try and make that refrain a truism in their own minds.
Also, let's consider something else in this "bad firing pin" regard
--- IF the gun had been damaged (and unable to properly fire due to a
damaged firing-pin mechanism) PRIOR to Nov. 22nd -- then can any CTer
explain WHY Lee Oswald would want to carry around such a damaged
weapon on the afternoon of 11/22/63 following JFK's murder?
Do CTers think that Oswald had NEVER fired that .38 revolver during
the eight months that he owned it?
Do CTers think that Oswald had no knowledge of the bad firing pin when
he placed the gun under his jacket on November 22?
And if he DID know about the gun's bad pin, what good did it do him to
race into his roominghouse to retrieve this piece-of-crap unfirable
weapon in the first place?
Logic (plus the cold, hard facts and evidence in the case) dictate one
thing for certain -- That revolver was working as of approximately
1:15 PM on November 22, 1963, when four bullets from it entered the
body of Officer J.D. Tippit. That's an irrevocable fact that no
conspiracist shall ever be able to debunk.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4d1790303e6fcc19
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CTer -- Tina Towner's film has a splice just as JFK's car is opposite
the TSBD entrance. Do you suppose LHO standing out front may be the
reason for the missing frames?
DVP -- Here's a question for CTers to chew on -- If Lee Harvey Oswald
had actually been on the Depository's front steps during the time of
the President's murder, THEN WHY DIDN'T HE ATTEMPT TO MAKE THAT HIS
ALIBI AFTER HE WAS ARRESTED?
And if you wish to believe that he DID tell the police he was on the
steps, then you are necessarily implying that any and all DPD/FBI/USSS
officials who heard Oswald say this are ALL crooks and involved in a
"cover-up" by not coming forth with this relevant information.
A logical thing to believe? No, it isn't.
If Oswald had been on those steps, would he not have spoken up and
told the cops he was there? Obviously, he WOULD have done so. His NOT
saying a word about being on the front steps is the best indicator yet
that he was never there.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/beb8390c3526124d
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CTer -- They (Gerald Ford) decided to go with that which worked for
the SBT, the {Rydberg} drawing, and therefore changed the wording in
the final report from "back" to "neck".
DVP -- The Rydberg drawing doesn't really "work" for the SBT....but
the ACTUAL autopsy photo (and the "14 cm. from the Mastoid"
measurement) certainly work for it. Those two things most closely
represent the WC's SBT, as can easily be seen in CE903. The wound in
is the UPPER BACK, not the "NECK", via the SBT demonstration seen in
CE903.....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pages/WH_Vol18_0055b.jpg
Moving the wound UP to the neck doesn't enhance the SBT -- it ruins
it. ....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bf3ae3c6c0993e13
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CTer -- The mastoid process is an unfixed point {on the body}.
DVP -- Wrong. The mastoid is a fixed body landmark. But, then, I guess
you must know more than Dr. James J. Humes, huh?
Within Humes' ARRB testimony, we find the following exchange:
QUESTION -- "When you recorded it as being from the right mastoid
process, was it your understanding that the right mastoid process was
a fixed body landmark?"
DR. HUMES -- "Oh, sure. It doesn't move around in most people. You're
really in trouble if it does."
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CTer -- The exact location and nature of JFK's wounds have been
totally fouled up for the historical record; and it wasn't by accident
or through incompetence.
DVP -- The autopsy wasn't perfect, granted. But JFK's wound locations
were not "fouled up for the historical record". The wounds were
measured from known body landmarks. Just because the landmarks aren't
the ones you would have advised utilizing, doesn't make the wounds any
more difficult to locate.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/42a0bbac40f320f5
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CTer -- Apparently you missed that {Australian/Discovery Channel}
debacle.
DVP -- Nope. I didn't miss it at all. In fact, I've seen that program
in question ("JFK: Beyond The Magic Bullet") several times....and I
have also purchased the DVD version from The Discovery Channel Online
Store.
It's a fabulous program...not a "debacle" in the slightest. And it's a
rare opportunity to see both Dale Myers and Vincent Bugliosi in the
same documentary.
But the big mystery to me is WHY the CT crowd thinks of that
Australian SBT re-creation as a "debacle", or why the CTers feel that
that test proves the SBT is totally unworkable....when it, in fact,
shows exactly the opposite.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/29442752a8ed2e8f
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/da93203e440d256e
lazu...@webtv.net
admit you've been wrong all along, and only wrote like a crazy nutter
deriving sadistic pleasure by tormenting the rest of us sane people with
your mad ravings?
Da Bug should be very unproud of you.