Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 48)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From March 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Howard Brennan DESCRIBED the gunman in
the WEST-end window, who obviously was NOT Oswald, as being 35 years
old and weighing as much as 175 pounds; and {Arnold} Rowland also saw
the gunman there in that WIDE OPEN west-end window.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- The CTer who wrote the above crap evidently
thinks that if he waits a few days or weeks and then posts the same
"DESCRIBED, 35-year-old, 175 lbs." junk again in a brand-new thread,
then I guess it's supposed to suddenly become new and TRUE all of a
sudden.
(Go figure kooks. If you can.)
But Brennan never ONCE said the gunman was "35 years old" or "175
pounds". Never. But a certain CTer will continue to insist that Howard
did say those exact words.
(Go figure kooks.)
But to the main point the kook raises here ---
So what???
Arnold Rowland's testimony is well-known. He said he saw a man with a
rifle at the west of the 6th Floor at some point before the motorcade
arrived in Dealey Plaza. .....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arowland.htm
So the above CTer decides that he's going to COMBINE Rowland's
testimony and Howard Brennan's testimony....and then he's going to
pretend that Brennan "DESCRIBED" a WEST-end window, instead of the
window that he (Brennan) circled here....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce477.jpg
....which was THE ONLY WINDOW in the whole TSBD that Brennan saw the
assassin in during the entire time on 11/22/63.
Let's look again:
DAVID BELIN -- "Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the
window that you believe you saw the man. All right. And do you want to
put a letter "A", if you would, by that. All right, now you have
marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with the letter "A" to show
the window that you saw a man in, I believe you said, at least two
times come back and forth."
HOWARD BRENNAN -- "Yes."
MR. BELIN -- "Did you see any other people in any other windows that
you can recollect?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "Not on that floor."
~~~~~~
And there's also this testimony from Brennan:
MR. BRENNAN -- "But I don't recall this window at the time of the
shooting being that low."
MR. BELIN -- "Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on
the sixth floor?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "Right."
MR. BELIN -- "Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high
do you believe it was open?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open
just like this."
MR. BELIN -- "Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately
below?"
MR. BRENNAN -- "That is right."
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0113a.jpg
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A certain conspiracy-hungry CTer must think that Howard Brennan
somehow just FORGOT which end of the building the sniper's window was
located when Brennan gave his WC testimony. So, Brennan put a circle
around the southeast corner window...even though (per a certain CTer)
Brennan REALLY meant the other end of the building.
(Go figure kooks.)
As for Rowland.....I'd like to know how Rowland's testimony gets
Oswald off the hook, or how Rowland's "west end" testimony means that
Brennan HAD to see the assassin in the same west-side window many
minutes later?
CTers like to pretend they have established, firm, written-in-stone
times for certain events taking place on 11/22/63, when of course they
have established no such thing.
Brennan didn't coordinate his observations with Rowland...nor did
Rowland with Brennan. Both witnesses are giving estimates, and neither
witness can pinpoint a precise time when they witnessed the man with a
gun in the TSBD.
Both Rowland and Brennan are probably correct. Rowland probably saw
Oswald on the west end prior to Oswald moving to his east-end sniper's
perch. And Brennan is certainly correct when he saw Oswald firing a
gun from the southeast corner window, because the evidence of shots
coming from Oswald's gun from that SE/SN window is too powerful to
ignore (or skew).
And as for Bonnie Ray Williams -- Again, we're dealing with estimates
re. the timeline. That CTer will next probably say that Williams MUST
have seen the assassin since Williams' timeline approx. lines up with
Rowland's. But the key word is "approx.". Williams wasn't looking at a
"Coordinated Universal Time" clock when he was eating his lunch on the
6th Floor on 11/22/63. Nor was anyone else. They were guessing.
Williams says he was on the 6th Floor at "about 12". And he stayed on
the 6th Floor for a few minutes, but his estimates range from 12:05 to
12:12. And those estimates might still be slightly off (in favor of
his being on the 6th Floor a little BEFORE noon); because of Williams'
"about 12" remark, which could mean the "clock" for eating his lunch
would start prior to 12:00. Maybe at 11:55 or so. Who knows exactly?
No one does.
Let's look at Williams' words:
JOHN McCLOY -- "What time of day was this, when you were eating your
lunch?"
BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS -- "About 12."
MR. McCLOY -- "Just 12?"
MR. WILLIAMS -- "Yes, sir."
JOSEPH BALL -- "Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from
where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast
corner?"
MR. WILLIAMS -- "In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really
don't remember if I seen anything-- it would be just the top edge of
the window, as I remember."
MR. BALL -- "Did you see anyone else up there that day?"
MR. WILLIAMS -- "No, I did not."
MR. BALL -- "How long did you stay there?"
MR. WILLIAMS -- "I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes."
MR. BALL -- "Finish your lunch?"
MR. WILLIAMS -- "Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the
chicken sandwich."
~~~~~~
Given the above estimates (and accounting for the fact that none of
the "timeline" witnesses were being precise to the MINUTE) -- Rowland
could very well have seen Oswald on the west end (possibly Oswald had
his gun stashed on that end before moving it to his Nest) after
Williams had left the 6th Floor.
And if any CTers now attempt to tie together Rowland's words with
Williams' testimony, they're going to have problems there too (without
having to call Williams a liar)...because of these words of Williams':
BALL -- "Did you see anyone else up there that day?"
WILLIAMS -- "No, I did not."
Bonnie Ray there is referring, of course, to not seeing anyone at all
on the 6th Floor during the few minutes he was up there eating his
lunch around noon on November 22nd.
In the final analysis, the sum total of the evidence (both physical
and eyewitness varieties) tells a reasonable person that there was
only ONE MAN with a gun up on the sixth floor of the Book Depository
on 11/22/63....and that one man was Lee Harvey Oswald.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7d3264251021ff76
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/f424ace2d7c840c7
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CTer -- Believing there was a conspiracy is no less inherently valid
than believing Oswald acted alone.
DVP -- It is when you take time to evaluate and assess all (or at
least a goodly amount) of the evidence in the JFK case.
Plainly stated...there just isn't ANY hard evidence that points to a
conspiracy in the John F. Kennedy murder case. None.
If there is some hard evidence pointing in the direction of
conspiracy, let's have it. For instance, where are the bullets? Where
are the other gunmen? How did they slip out of the sight of all 300 or
so witnesses on 11/22?
If a multi-shooter plot existed (which has at least some shots from
non-C2766 guns striking victims), why was ONLY Oswald-incriminating
evidence found at BOTH murder sites (JFK's & Tippit's)?
Why was Oswald ACTING LIKE A LONE ASSASSIN after Kennedy's killing if
he really wasn't a lone killer?
In short, where's the HARD evidence for conspiracy?
A faith-based belief, with people saying "There might have been
somebody else encouraging Oswald to do it", is just not going to cut
the muster. Because even THAT type of conspiracy appears unlikely,
based on all the stuff involving Oswald's background and contacts,
etc.
So you're left to reconcile the basic bottom-line inquiry -- i.e.,
Where is that hard evidence for a November 22 conspiracy?
This Warren Report page (below) is something that CTers should read at
least once a week....if only to bring them back down to the world of
reality. (The WC was filled with lying bastards, right? Is that a
reasonable assumption to make? Really?).....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0199b.htm
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CTer -- So, Mister LNer, do you think Dr. Gregory was a rotten
scheming liar? Doctors frequently measure dosage in milligrams. So do
not tell us that Gregory made an another honest mistake.
DVP -- Gregory told it as he saw it --- the ONLY bullet fragments
inside John B. Connally's body amounted to mere "flakes of metal" --
IOW, virtually nothing. If you added 20 more fragments like this one
(CE842) to JBC's "inventory of fragments"....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0434a.htm
....you probably still wouldn't be able to say that it added up to
more than the approx. 2.2 grains missing from Stretcher Bullet CE399.
~~~~~~
"Several factors make it clear that Kennedy and Connally WERE struck
by the same bullet. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of
any separate bullet hitting Connally." -- V. Bugliosi
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/61fe27a14fb7dd35
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/00a4ecbb835edc89
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CTer -- Given the FACT some {people} believe the Zapruder film is a
complete fabrication, it makes the above {"Z-Film Supports The SBT"
declaration} rather suspect; not to mention {rendering} Myers' cartoon
useless.
DVP -- A large-sized "LOL" is needed here!
The FACT that some people "believe" (falsely, of course) that the Z-
Film is "wholly fabricated" (words from the back cover of Mr. Fetzer's
crazy "Z-Film Hoax" book) certainly doesn't prove that the film itself
is, in fact, "wholly fabricated". It's merely a belief (myth) in some
people's silly minds.
But you do bring up a point re. "Z-Film Fakery" that I had not thought
much about heretofore. And that is.....
If the Zapruder Film has been (some how, some way) "wholly
fabricated", and Dale Myers' animation has been based primarily on
this "fabricated" film -- then what do you think the odds would be
that Mr. Myers' animation would be able to perfectly line up the men
in the car and trace the SBT shot back beautifully to the center of
the southeast corner window on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository --
ALL WHILE USING A MADE-UP-FROM-WHOLECLOTH MOVIE AS A GUIDE?!
I guess those film-fakers were really, really good at their detailed
craft indeed! Because the animated "overlays" done by Mr. Myers
(almost entirely based on Zapruder's film) perfectly support a theory
that CTers think is completely impossible. And if you want to believe
the nutty theory of "Z-Film Forgery", you'll have to believe that the
film-fakers were so good they could line up the (faked) Kennedy and
the (faked) Connally in the automobile just perfectly to make Myers'
three-dimensional animation model support the SBT to a tee.
It's just a shame that those expert film-fakers, who managed to
fabricate the film in a nice pro-SBT manner, couldn't figure out the
most obvious thing of all that needed "faked" -- the JFK rear head
snap.
I guess instead of bothering with that critical "head snap", the film-
fakers must've been too darn busy manipulating Mary Moorman's footwear
and also manipulating JFK & JBC in the limo so as to match Dale K.
Myers' 3D computer model (a model that the forgers must have somehow
known was coming in the Digital Age, decades after the fakery was
done).
Go figure.
http://jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/models.htm
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Egvc3TYQ9po
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2kEh3Kgwhk0
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a7cf61c59d09bc05