Of course I did and there was nothing that supported your claim that,
"First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher"
> Only one stretcher is ever mentioned -- "THE
> stretcher" that "Tomlinson stated" he removed from the elevator.
Are you actually going to argue that the "B" stretcher never existed???
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher in that area at that time?
Mr. TOMLINSON. There was a stretcher about 2 feet from the wall already
there. (Indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.)
Do you really think the Secret Service's failure to mention that
stretcher trumps Tomlinson's sworn statement that it was already there
when he brought Connally's down?
And I'm still waiting for that citation which supports your claim.
"First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher"
He said no such thing, Jean. Neither did the Secret Service. When do you
intend to admit your error?
>
> ".... This area was secured by the Secret Service and only hospital
> personnel and officers were allowed inside. Mr. Tomlinson stated *the
> stretcher* was left unattended for about an hour, then he walked to *the
> stretcher* and moved it by shoving *the stretcher* against a wall. At
> that point he noticed the bullet come rolling out from under the pad on
> *the stretcher*...." [my emphasis]
Yes Jean, when people are transferred on a stretcher, they put a pad
under them:-)
You can do better than this.
>
>>
>>>
>>> Also interviewed were witnesses who saw Connally's stretcher upstairs.
>>> Nurse Jane Wester, who helped move Connally to the OR table, said she
>>> "rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered
>>> with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end
>>> of the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot identify,
>>> on the other end of the stretcher" and asked orderly Jimison to take it
>>> to the elevator. Jimison said he saw the nurse roll up the bloody sheets
>>> and put them on the stretcher.
>>
>> There is no doubt that Tomlinson brought Connally's stretcher down on
>> the elevator. But there was no bullet on it.
>
> Then how do you explain the stretcher with rolled-up sheets and
> medical instruments that OR witnesses said Connally was on? It was put
> on the elevator and sent downstairs, so what happened to that one, Robert?
Exactly what Tomlinson told us. He put Connally's stretcher next to the
one that was already there, by the rest room. Did you bother to look at
Tomlinson's drawing?
http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg
Big hospitals like Parkland treat thousands of patients, and they
standardize their procedures. The odds are high that the stretchers from
two gunshot victims will have the same items on them, including the
bloody sheets.
>
>>
>> As you know all too well, the bullet from that "gurney", was recovered
>> on the second floor by a nurse, who showed it to DA Wade and gave it to
>> officer Nolan, who delivered it to the DPD that evening.
>>
>> Connally confirmed that fact himself, and nurse Audrey Bell put the lie
>> to the FBI's claim that she gave tiny wrist fragments to Nolan.
>>
>
> No.
Hmm.. that's a pretty lame reply, Jean:-)
Have you listened to Bell's recorded interview with the ARRB, or read
her testimony to the HSCA, 20 years earlier?
This is from her MD184, from the ARRB:
"When shown an FBI FD-302 dated November 23,1963 (Agency File Number
000919, Record# 180-l 0090-10270), she felt it was inaccurate in two
respects: it quotes her as turning over ???the metal fragment
(singular),??? whereas she is positive it was multiple fragments - it says
she turned over the fragment to a Texas State Trooper, whereas she recalls
turning it over to plainclothes Federal agents who were either FBI or
Secret Service."
And from her HSCA testimony, 20 years earlier,
G: All right, and after you placed them into the foreign body envelope
and sealed that envelope, what did you do with it?
B: I delivered them to the FBI, and he signed for them, this was a
deviation from our procedure, he signed, ah, there was a, took an
inter-office memorandum and wrote on there about my delivering those to
the FBI. I believe Mr. Sorrels, and signed it, this. . . . . . .
G: Now, you believe that it was Mr. Sorrels?
B: I believe so, I recall this name. I recall this name. (she met with
Sorrels after Oswald was brought in on Sunday)
G: You recall the name but you're not positive at this point that it
was Sorrels?
B: No, No [sic]. I'm not sure.
G: But it was someone from the FBI who showed you identification. . .
B: The FBI or Secret Service, that I gave it to. And I think it was
the FBI.
Bell was always consistent that she never gave her tiny fragments to
officer Nolan or anyone else in uniform. She gave them to plain clothed
agents, almost certainly, from the FBI.
That's why the memo that she sent to Price, signed by her and one of the
agents has disappeared. Even the ARRB couldn't locate it. Guess who was
the last agency to have it:-)
The FBI lied, Jean, not only about Bell saying she gave anything to
Nolan, but that she gave only a single fragment. They had to lie about
that too, because they had already acknowledged that Nolan's envelope
only contained ONE ITEM.
>
>>>
>>> There were no bloody rolled-up sheets on the other stretcher.
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> When you accidentally emailed me your post a few hours ago, you made
>> that same assertion and I asked you for a citation and source.
>>
>> I'm still waiting.
>
> I asked you to reply to me here, now you have.
Reply to what?
You still haven't provided a citation which even comes close to
supporting that blurtation.
"First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher"
The first page says nothing of the kind, Jean. Nor does any other.
>
> Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher.
> Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will,
> please.
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white
> covering on the pad.
> Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.
> Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but
> I don't believe there was.
I have no idea what your point is.
Are you suggesting that the stretcher on the elevator that he was
describing, was not Connally's??
>
>>
>>>
>>> Tomlinson repeatedly told Specter he wasn't sure which of the two
>>> stretchers came off the elevator.
>>>> Understandable, since he had no reason
>>> to pay attention to either one until he found the bullet. But he did
>>> remember what else was on that particular stretcher:
>>>
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
>>> out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
>>> Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".
>>> Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I
>>> didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east
>>> end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end
>>> and a sterile pack or so.
>>
>> This is a poor argument, Jean. Any stretcher with a bullet on it is
>> probably going to be accompanied by bloody sheets, for obvious reasons.
>>
>
> Huh? I don't understand what you're saying there. My argument is
> that memories change over time,
No, your argument was exactly the opposite of that. You said, "..he did
remember what else was on that particular stretcher"
You seemed to be very trusting of his memory before I pointed out that
all stretchers which bore gunshot victims probably had the same stuff on
them:-)
> which is a proven fact. By the time he
> testified Tomlinson mis-remembered which stretcher came off the
> elevator, but he could still describe the articles on it.
"by the time he testified"??
You seem to be implying that before he testified, he had it right, and
then just forgot what he used to believe:-)
But he NEVER said the stretcher on the elevator was the one the bullet
came from. That's why you cannot support your bogus assertion that the
Secret Service said he did.
And that's why the FBI won't let us see his FD-302:-)
Tomlinson ALSO told Specter that he wasn't sure and he explained
precisely WHY he wasn't sure. You continue to ignore that.
He wasn't sure because he didn't know if the stretchers had been
rearranged while he was gone, or whether somehow the bullet was knocked
off one stretcher onto the other. I'm sure you will agree that both
possibilities are improbable.
And you did not prove your ugly accusation that I cited them out of
context. Tomlinson told Specter that he told the SS and FBI, the same
things he told him, and Specter who was privy to those reports, NEVER
disputed that.
And finally, neither the FBI or the Secret Service ever CLAIMED that
Tomlinson told him that the bullet came from Connally's stretcher.
So, it is obvious that Tomlinson was truthful, that he did tell those
agencies the same things he told Specter, which is what I have been
saying all along.
>
>>
>> and..
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
>> Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about
>> the same thing we've gone over here.
>
> Yes, the FBI asked him about the stretchers, same thing Specter
> asked him about.
>
>
>> Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If
>> Tomlinson had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A"
>> stretcher, he would have been shouting that to the rooftops and asking
>> Tomlinson why he changed his story.
>
> Your assumption.
Ahh.. so you think that if Tomlinson had contradicted what he told the
FBI and/or SS, Specter would not have mentioned that??
Good luck peddling that one:-)
>>
>> He couldn't do that because Tomlinson did not tell either the FBI or the
>> SS that. They never claimed he did.
No argument Jean?
I read every word of it Jean. They NEVER claimed that Tomlinson said the
bullet came off the elevator stretcher - NEVER!
But if you think otherwise, post your citation - verbatim please.
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> And the FACT that the bullet that wounded them was recovered by a
>>>> nurse....
>>>
>>> I hope you noticed that in the same Secret Service document an OR
>>> nurse named Standridge "stated she did not see or hear any bullet fall
>>> from the Governor's clothes at the time she was undressing him..."
>>
>> Of course she didn't. Connally was very specific that the bullet fell as
>> he was being transferred from his stretcher to an operating table on the
>> second floor. His clothing was removed on the first floor.
>>
>
> Sorry, I should've said "ER nurse," not "OR." Standridge
> testified that she helped remove his clothing in Emergency Room #2 on
> the first floor and:
>
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?
> Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual.
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
> Miss STANDRIDGE - No.
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
> Miss STANDRIDGE - I didn't.
>
>
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/standridge.htm
Standridge was nowhere near Connally when he was being transferred to
the operating table and the bullet fell.
Did you read her testimony?
She started to help push him to the elevator but others took over, so
she stopped.
Mr. SPECTER - Are you sure that was Governor Connally?
Miss STANDRIDGE - No, that's what I said---I. Just saw his feet, which I
assumed it was--it was the same doctors.
Mr. SPECTER - About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing
the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his feet?
Miss STANDRIDGE - Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds.
Mr. SPECTER - You went back and got his clothes?
Miss STANDRIDGE - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you do with those clothes?
Miss STANDRIDGE - I asked the administrator who should I give them to,
and they told me to give them to Governor Connally's party and they were
in the minor medicine section and I went out there and there were two
gentlemen out there and I asked them who I wanted to see---I wanted to
see somebody in Governor Connally's party, and they opened the door and
they asked for somebody, and he said he was---he identified himself as
Cliff Carter.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you give him the clothing?
Miss STANDRIDGE - Yes.
Any argument?
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Robert, I've snipped because I'm not going over all this old ground
>>> again.
>>
>> I don't think so, Jean. I think you snipped because you have no
>> plausible rebuttal to this evidence.
>>
>> It is critical to understand that Tomlinson couldn't have found a bullet
>> on Connally's stretcher, since it was already recovered by that nurse.
>> It is predictable that he would deny that he did.
>
> He denied he found a bullet???
I know your reading comprhension is better than that, Jean:-)
"ON CONNALLY'S STRETCHER". It is predictable that he would deny having
found a bullet on Connally's stretcher, with emphasis on "Connally's".
>
> >
>> And why did you snip the part when I pointed out that you misrepresented
>> Spector, claiming he was surprised that Tomlinson selected the "B"
>> stretcher?
>>
>> He already knew that, based on their previous conversation(s). This is
>> what you snipped:
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you
>> have testified about, did we not?
>>
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your
>> recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was
>> it not?
>>
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. B.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you
>> took off of the elevator.
>>
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.
>>
>>
>> Why would you choose to delete that citation rather than simply admit
>> that you were wrong?
>
> In my view Specter read the FBI and SS reports and probably
> wasn't expecting Tomlinson to tell a different story, whether during
> their initial discussion or in his testimony.
Strange that you constantly have these guys believing things they never
mentioned.
Have you noticed Jean, that I talk only about things that they really said?
Spector could not have been surprised, because he said (he really did)
that Tomlinson had already told him, prior to testifying, that the
bullet was on the "B" stretcher and not Connally's.
Why can't you ever just admit that you were wrong?
>
>>
>>> I only wanted to know what you were referring to when you wrote,
>>> "[Tomlinson] originally told both the Secret Service and the FBI it came
>>> off a different stretcher." BTW, if that were true, why would Specter
>>> even bring up these earlier interviews? That doesn't fit your theory
>>> that he was trying to hide the truth.
>>
>> When did I claim he was "trying to hide the truth"?
Jean?
>>
>> Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If
>> Tomlinson had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A"
>> stretcher, he would have been shouting that to the rooftops, just as the
>> FBI would have made the Tomlinson FD-302 public, if he had chosen the PC
>> stretcher:-)
>
> This is reasoning based on suspicion, which isn't a reliable
> source. You are *assuming* this is what they "would have" done.
Yes I am, because we both know that is exactly what he would have done.
Listen to yourself, Jean. You have no citations to support your
argument, so you have to fabricate beliefs that were never stated.
Specter had already acknowledged that Tomlinson had previously told him
the bullet came off the "B" stretcher.
And neither he, nor the FBI, nor the Secret Service, EVER cited him
claiming otherwise.
Or perhaps you would like to bring up SA Odum's report:-)
>
>>
>>> It fits my theory that Specter was
>>> trying to jog Tomlinson's memory.
>>
>> I do not try to read the minds of the dead, Jean.
>
> Of course you do. You just did!
No, I didn't Jean. Specter TOLD us what Tomlinson had previously said to
him:
Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you
have testified about, did we not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your
recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was
it not?
Mr. TOMLINSON. B.
Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you
took off of the elevator.
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.
You see Jean, I rely on what these guys actually said, not what I wish
they had said:-)
>
> [snip]
>> Let's take another look at that diagram, shall we?
>>
>>
http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg
>>
>> ONLY THE B STRETCHER WAS BLOCKING THE RESTROOM.
>>
>> ONLY THE B STRETCHER.
>>
>> That was the stretcher which held the bullet that Tomlinson found.
>> That's why he said that the only way he could be wrong was if someone
>> rearranged them, but why would anyone do that?
>
> Please cut and paste Tomlinson saying the only way he could be
> wrong was if someone rearranged them:
Cut the crap, Jean.
You need to address the fact that ONLY the "B" stretcher had been in
front of the rest room. That is the stretcher that was moved out of the
way by a doctor, causing Tomlinson to push it back against the wall,
when the bullet fell.
Robert Harris