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The Tomlinson Bullet

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Robert Harris

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Nov 8, 2016, 10:34:25 AM11/8/16
to
It was at 11:50 PM on 11/22/63 that the FBI lab in Washington
received the first bullet fragments from Dealey Plaza that
were large enough to be matched up with the bullet that Daryl
Tomlinson found, which they had received earlier that evening.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/fraziernotes.jpg

Of course, they would have been eager to analyze them to
determine whether they came all from the same rifle.

Obviously, they did not.

This is from the recorded 1967 interview of Tomlinson by Ray
Marcus. The interview is also documented in the HSCA records.

Tomlinson: On Friday morning about 12:30 to 1 o'clock - uh,
excuse me, that's Saturday morning - after the assassination,
the FBI woke me up on the phone and told me to to keep my
mouth shut.

Marcus: About the circumstances of your finding the bullet?

Tomlinson: That is (one short word, unintelligible) what I found…

Marcus: I understand exactly what you mean, when they call
you, it's pretty authoritative. But the thing is this, did
they say - was there any particular thing about what they
said or they just didn't want you to talk about it period?

Tomlinson: Just don't talk about it period.







Robert Harris




OHLeeRedux

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Nov 9, 2016, 12:21:25 PM11/9/16
to
Originally Posted by Robert Harris

I'm sorry but I no longer respond to ad
hominem attacks.


You pretty much haven't responded to anything. You argue expecting your
critics to play the role you've written out for them, and you get
frustrated (and subsequently moderated) when they won't. You can't seem to
deal with what your critics actually do and say.

Your arguments, however lengthily or repeatedly embellished, continue to
boil down to assumptions, begged questions, and subjectivity. Those flaws
will not continue to go away no matter how many words you pile around
them.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10740773&postcount=1897

David Von Pein

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Nov 9, 2016, 12:32:04 PM11/9/16
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Robert Harris

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Nov 10, 2016, 5:39:04 PM11/10/16
to
The only remotely relevant statemen in those blogs, among all
those ugly ad hominem attacks on your adversaries, was the
one in which you pointed out that in 1967, Tomlinson said
that the bullet he found, did come off of Connally's stretcher.

But that was NOT his original, earliest recollection, which
is all any honest researcher should care about. He originally
told both the Secret Service and the FBI that it came off a
different stretcher.

After being worked over by Spector, he then said he wasn't
certain.

So, why would he have changed his story, 4 years later?

Well, put yourself in his shoes. How many times do you
suppose this conversation took place between Tomlinson and
Spector or other govt. advocates?

T: That bullet didn't come off of Connally's stretcher.

G: But Daryl, the FBI examined it and concluded that it came
from Oswald's rifle! You don't think the FBI would lie do
you? Haw, haw, haw.


How does he reply, David? At some point, he has to conclude
that his memory must be faulty. If only he knew what we know
now:-)





Robert Harris

mainframetech

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Nov 10, 2016, 5:44:39 PM11/10/16
to
What's this? More excuses to hop over to your website? Why don't you
post some info here to save the time? Or do you need your hit count to be
increased?

Chris

Robert Harris

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Nov 10, 2016, 5:46:52 PM11/10/16
to
What specifically, did I fail to respond to?


> You argue expecting your
> critics to play the role you've written out for them,

That is true. I expect them to play the "role" of adversaries
who are willing to defend their beliefs honestly and support
their arguments with evidence and reason.


> and you get
> frustrated (and subsequently moderated) when they won't.

That is untrue. There is NOTHING I like better than when
nutters evade my arguments and have to resort to insults and
vague generalizations, as you are doing now.

Because when you do that, you corroborate me. You prove that
it is impossible to support the LN theory honestly.


> You can't seem to
> deal with what your critics actually do and say.

What arguments have a failed to "deal with"?

Please be specific.

>
> Your arguments, however lengthily or repeatedly embellished, continue to
> boil down to assumptions,

Please be specific.

Was the near unanimous perception of the DP witnesses, that
they only heard one early shot and then closely bunched shots
at the end, my assumption:-)

Were the analyses of Drs. Alvarez and Stroscio, my "assumption"?

Are these simultaneous reactions, which occurred in perfect
unison with Zapruder's reaction, my assumption?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GH5pGQy6yI


> begged questions,

What questions did I "beg"?

Please be specific.

> and subjectivity.

There is actually some truth in that statement.

Among all the other evidence, is my subjective conclusion
that the reason all of those simultaneous reactions occurred,
was that they were startled by exactly the same noise they
said they were hearing then.

It is also my subjective opinion that this guy was startled
by a loud noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BHUDBIlHwo

And it is my subjective opinion that this is a cow.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Hato_la_Chiquinquira_-_Vaca_lechera.jpg

You see Mr. Redux - subjective opinion has gotten a bit of an
unnecessarily, bad reputation. Subjective opinion is only
questionable when it is not ridiculously obvious.

And isn't it ironic that YOU corroborated my subjective
opinion that the limo passengers reacted then, in
contradiction to your friends who claimed they couldn't see
any reactions.

The only difference was that you believed they were thrown
around by Greer hitting the brakes. You were wrong of course,
but the fact remains that we BOTH saw them simultaneously
reacting.

Didn't we, Mr. Redux:-)


> Those flaws
> will not continue to go away no matter how many words you pile around
> them.

I have my share of flaws, amigo, but not the ones you mentioned.

And if you really believed your accusations, why is that you
are NEVER specific about them?

>
>
> http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10740773&postcount=1897

What exactly do you see at that link, that supports any of
your accusations?

Please be specific.




Robert Harris


OHLeeRedux

unread,
Nov 11, 2016, 12:14:35 PM11/11/16
to
> > http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10740773&postcount=1897
>
> What exactly do you see at that link, that supports any of
> your accusations?
>
> Please be specific.
>
>
>
>
> Robert Harris


Certainly Robert!

I have an idea. Why don't we let the lurkers decide for themselves if you
have supported your silly theory?

Lurkers please click the below link, scroll down to June 29, 2015 and
follow the discussion. I promise you that it is very entertaining to watch
intelligent critical thinkers make mincemeat out of a ridiculous
conspiracy theory, one so silly that even Harris's fellow conspiracy nuts
don't believe it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279669&page=42

:-)



David Von Pein

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Nov 11, 2016, 12:14:57 PM11/11/16
to
You think it would "save the time" if I typed out all that stuff yet again
in a fresh post (vs. linking to the exact same thing via links)?

How would that activity save me (or anybody) any time? Please enlighten
me.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 11, 2016, 12:16:14 PM11/11/16
to
On 11/10/2016 5:46 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> OHLeeRedux wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 8, 2016 at 7:34:25 AM UTC-8, Robert Harris wrote:
>>> It was at 11:50 PM on 11/22/63 that the FBI lab in Washington
>>> received the first bullet fragments from Dealey Plaza that
>>> were large enough to be matched up with the bullet that Daryl
>>> Tomlinson found, which they had received earlier that evening.
>>>
>>> http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/fraziernotes.jpg
>>>
>>> Of course, they would have been eager to analyze them to
>>> determine whether they came all from the same rifle.
>>>
>>> Obviously, they did not.
>>>
>>> This is from the recorded 1967 interview of Tomlinson by Ray
>>> Marcus. The interview is also documented in the HSCA records.
>>>
>>> Tomlinson: On Friday morning about 12:30 to 1 o'clock - uh,
>>> excuse me, that's Saturday morning - after the assassination,
>>> the FBI woke me up on the phone and told me to to keep my
>>> mouth shut.
>>>
>>> Marcus: About the circumstances of your finding the bullet?
>>>
>>> Tomlinson: That is (one short word, unintelligible) what I found???
If you really believe your kooky theories, why is IT that YOU are never
specific about them?

The proof that you don't know what you are talking about is that you
always refuse to answer questions and get specific about your kooky
theories.

Anthony Marsh

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Nov 11, 2016, 4:42:52 PM11/11/16
to
McAdams won't let him.

> Chris
>


Jean Davison

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Nov 11, 2016, 4:53:21 PM11/11/16
to
On 11/10/2016 4:39 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> David Von Pein wrote:
>> DARRELL C. TOMLINSON (PARTS 1, 2, and 3):
>>
>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-74.html
>>
>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-76.html
>>
>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-829.html
>>
>>
>
> The only remotely relevant statemen in those blogs, among all those ugly
> ad hominem attacks on your adversaries, was the one in which you pointed
> out that in 1967, Tomlinson said that the bullet he found, did come off
> of Connally's stretcher.
>
> But that was NOT his original, earliest recollection, which is all any
> honest researcher should care about. He originally told both the Secret
> Service and the FBI that it came off a different stretcher.
>
> After being worked over by Spector, he then said he wasn't certain.

Pat Speer found the Secret Service's Dec. 4, 1963 interview of
Tomlinson and that's not what it says. First page here says he found the
bullet on the elevator stretcher:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fa%2Fpatspeer.com%2Fwww2%2Ftomlinson_darrell_c.pdf%3Fattredirects%3D0%26d%3D1&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFCebgYcQG916DGmFuZpT-C1mnIGQ

I can't find the FBI interview of Tomlinson. Do you have a link or
are you relying on memory?

Specter apparently had these documents in front of him when he
questioned Tomlinson and was surprised when the witness contradicted
himself. No wonder Specter seemed to "work him over." In later interviews
Tomlinson continued to switch between which stretcher he thought the
bullet was on.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tomlinso.htm

Jean

mainframetech

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Nov 11, 2016, 7:50:08 PM11/11/16
to
The bullet that later was declared to be from the MC rifle was indeed
from that rifle, but it was not fired from the TSBD, it was fired as part
of test firing the MC rifle by the bullet custodian. That was done the
very next day after the murder. They fired over 60 bullets into various
materials and so the bullet custodian had many samples of MC rifle bullets
available to him. The bullet found at Parkland hospital on the WRONG
gurney was pointy nosed, according to one of the 4 men who handled it that
day. Later when they were asked to identify that bullet, they all
refused, and one of them said that it was the wrong shape, that the bullet
shown was 'round nosed' which was not the original bullet. Those were the
indications that it was NOT the ORIGINAL bullet found on the WRONG gurney.

Chris

Anthony Marsh

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Nov 11, 2016, 8:24:15 PM11/11/16
to
How would you know what the lurkers think? By definition the lurkers do
not post here.



Robert Harris

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Nov 12, 2016, 2:35:35 PM11/12/16
to
David, you know very well that there is NOTHING in those blog
articles that address what matters on this issue. Posting
links to totally irrelevant articles, is just a pathetic
attempt to evade the evidence.

Talk about Wade, Nolan, Bell and how they corroborated John
Connally.

Talk about the absence of the initials of agents Johnsen and
Todd on CE399.

Talk about how the FBI tried to silence Daryl Tomlinson after
they discovered that the bullet he found, didn't match large
fragments found in the limo.

Talk about why, within one week after receiving those
bullets. Hoover was telling LBJ that Connally came between a
sniper and LBJ.

CE399 was NOT the bullet that wounded Connally. It wasn't
even involved in the assassination. That was PROVEN by hard
evidence.





Robert Harris


Robert Harris

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Nov 12, 2016, 2:36:02 PM11/12/16
to
OHLeeRedux wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 2:46:52 PM UTC-8, Robert Harris wrote:
>> OHLeeRedux wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 8, 2016 at 7:34:25 AM UTC-8, Robert Harris wrote:
>>>> It was at 11:50 PM on 11/22/63 that the FBI lab in Washington
>>>> received the first bullet fragments from Dealey Plaza that
>>>> were large enough to be matched up with the bullet that Daryl
>>>> Tomlinson found, which they had received earlier that evening.
>>>>
>>>> http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/fraziernotes.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Of course, they would have been eager to analyze them to
>>>> determine whether they came all from the same rifle.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, they did not.
>>>>
>>>> This is from the recorded 1967 interview of Tomlinson by Ray
>>>> Marcus. The interview is also documented in the HSCA records.
>>>>
>>>> Tomlinson: On Friday morning about 12:30 to 1 o'clock - uh,
>>>> excuse me, that's Saturday morning - after the assassination,
>>>> the FBI woke me up on the phone and told me to to keep my
>>>> mouth shut.
>>>>
>>>> Marcus: About the circumstances of your finding the bullet?
>>>>
>>>> Tomlinson: That is (one short word, unintelligible) what I found???
>>>>
>>>> Marcus: I understand exactly what you mean, when they call
>>>> you, it's pretty authoritative. But the thing is this, did
>>>> they say - was there any particular thing about what they
>>>> said or they just didn't want you to talk about it period?
>>>>
>>>> Tomlinson: Just don't talk about it period.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert Harris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>> http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10740773&postcount=1897
>>
>> What exactly do you see at that link, that supports any of
>> your accusations?
>>
>> Please be specific.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Harris
>
>
> Certainly Robert!
>
> I have an idea.

I have a BETTER idea.

Answer the question and stop running:-)

Do you have any idea how pathetic it is that you cannot point
out even ONE good argument against my analysis?


Robert Harris

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 12, 2016, 2:40:00 PM11/12/16
to
On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 4:53:21 PM UTC-5, Jean Davison wrote:
> On 11/10/2016 4:39 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> > David Von Pein wrote:
> >> DARRELL C. TOMLINSON (PARTS 1, 2, and 3):
> >>
> >> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-74.html
> >>
> >> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-76.html
> >>
> >> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-829.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> > The only remotely relevant statemen in those blogs, among all those ugly
> > ad hominem attacks on your adversaries, was the one in which you pointed
> > out that in 1967, Tomlinson said that the bullet he found, did come off
> > of Connally's stretcher.
> >
> > But that was NOT his original, earliest recollection, which is all any
> > honest researcher should care about. He originally told both the Secret
> > Service and the FBI that it came off a different stretcher.
> >
> > After being worked over by Spector, he then said he wasn't certain.
>



I must agree with Jean. It had been a long time since I tracked it all
down through all the iterations, but I got the same answer that the first
choice and explanation for the 'A' and 'B' gurneys from Tomlinson was the
WRONG gurney. It is even more entertaining to compare the CE399 bullet to
a test bullet pictured together by the WC:

http://www.jfk-info.com/Exf294.gif

The test bullet is CE572 just to the right of the CE399 bullet, which
is first to the left. They both have slightly flattened and bent middles
and they both have lost a bit of material from the tail end. This
surprising comparison result is even more surprising when one learns that
both were in the possession of the bullet custodian. It would be an easy
move to replace the CE399 gurney bullet with a test bullet from the over
60 they had available from the testing of the MC rifle the very next day
after the murder.

That would explain the somewhat 'pristine' look of the bullet after
supposedly hitting 2 men 7 times with 2 bone strikes.

It may seem a bit far out to consider such a replacement, but when you
find also that 4 men who had handled the CE399 bullet on the day of the
murder later were asked to identify it and they all refused. One of them
stated that the new bullet was not shaped like the original bullet! It
was round nosed (like the MC ammo) when the original gurney bullet was
pointed nosed. Oddly enough the same problem surfaced with the Walker
bullet where the original bullet was STEEL jacketed and the one shown to
the public was COPPER jacketed. The person that had seen the original
bullet stated that the newer bullet was NOT the original and it should be
withdrawn. He was ignored. That was Walker himself!

Chris

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 12, 2016, 2:40:17 PM11/12/16
to
It takes critical thinking. As you know, we have the ability with
computers to cut and paste information, so that by copying a page there
over to here, it would take almost no time.

Chris

Bud

unread,
Nov 12, 2016, 11:33:53 PM11/12/16
to
I suppose it would be a waste of time correcting you on all these points
again.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 12, 2016, 11:41:48 PM11/12/16
to
Are you suggesting time travel. Frazier did not even have the rifle on
Friday night.

bigdog

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 12:24:47 AM11/13/16
to
On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 7:50:08 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
Tell us which of these 4 men who "refused" to identify CE399 said it
WASN'T the bullet they handled. Please use their words, not your spin on
what they said.

OHLeeRedux

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 12:28:16 AM11/13/16
to
Anthony Marsh
- show quoted text -
How would you know what the lurkers think? By definition the lurkers do
not post here.


You are confused again, Anthony. Try reading for comprehension instead of
just picking out a word or two and then firing off one of your irrelevant
comments.

OHLeeRedux

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 12:34:49 AM11/13/16
to
Robert Harris
Let the lurkers decide for themselves? I couldn't agree more!

Click the below link, scroll down to June 29, 2015, follow the debate and
see Robert Harris's ridiculous theories exposed for the vapid nonsense
that they are.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279669&page=42

:-)

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 7:59:48 AM11/13/16
to
But McAdams won't let him do that.

> Chris
>


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 8:00:11 AM11/13/16
to
On 11/12/2016 2:39 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 4:53:21 PM UTC-5, Jean Davison wrote:
>> On 11/10/2016 4:39 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
>>> David Von Pein wrote:
>>>> DARRELL C. TOMLINSON (PARTS 1, 2, and 3):
>>>>
>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-74.html
>>>>
>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-76.html
>>>>
>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-829.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The only remotely relevant statemen in those blogs, among all those ugly
>>> ad hominem attacks on your adversaries, was the one in which you pointed
>>> out that in 1967, Tomlinson said that the bullet he found, did come off
>>> of Connally's stretcher.
>>>
>>> But that was NOT his original, earliest recollection, which is all any
>>> honest researcher should care about. He originally told both the Secret
>>> Service and the FBI that it came off a different stretcher.
>>>
>>> After being worked over by Spector, he then said he wasn't certain.
>>
>
>
>
> I must agree with Jean. It had been a long time since I tracked it all
> down through all the iterations, but I got the same answer that the first
> choice and explanation for the 'A' and 'B' gurneys from Tomlinson was the
> WRONG gurney. It is even more entertaining to compare the CE399 bullet to

Don't you remember my joke that it was little Ronnie Fuller's gurney?
That's where the wild miss went.

David Von Pein

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 8:03:44 AM11/13/16
to
~yawn~

And maybe you should learn how to properly spell Mr. Tomlinson's first
name, Bob. Among many other things, you never get that right either.

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 4:07:07 PM11/13/16
to
Jean Davison wrote:
> On 11/10/2016 4:39 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
>> David Von Pein wrote:
>>> DARRELL C. TOMLINSON (PARTS 1, 2, and 3):
>>>
>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-74.html
>>>
>>>
>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-76.html
>>>
>>>
>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-829.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The only remotely relevant statemen in those blogs, among
>> all those ugly
>> ad hominem attacks on your adversaries, was the one in
>> which you pointed
>> out that in 1967, Tomlinson said that the bullet he found,
>> did come off
>> of Connally's stretcher.
>>
>> But that was NOT his original, earliest recollection, which
>> is all any
>> honest researcher should care about. He originally told
>> both the Secret
>> Service and the FBI that it came off a different stretcher.
>>
>> After being worked over by Spector, he then said he wasn't
>> certain.
>
> Pat Speer found the Secret Service's Dec. 4, 1963
> interview of Tomlinson and that's not what it says. First
> page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher:

Yes, but HE didn't say that and the Secret Service didn't
claim he did. That was their conclusion, not his.

>
> https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fa%2Fpatspeer.com%2Fwww2%2Ftomlinson_darrell_c.pdf%3Fattredirects%3D0%26d%3D1&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFCebgYcQG916DGmFuZpT-C1mnIGQ

This is the only thing they claimed that Tomlinson said,

"Mr. Tomlinson stated that he removed the stretcher from the
elevator and placed it in a foyer which is separated from the
Emergency Room proper by two sets of swinging doors."

This is from his WC testimony. The diagram that is discussed
is here:

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark with a "B" the stretcher which was
present at the time you pushed stretcher "A" off of the elevator?

Specter also asked him to label the rest room in the diagram
as "C" and explain how he acquired the bullet,

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the men's room located on this diagram?

Mr. TOMLINSON. It would be right there (indicating) beside
the "B" stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw in ink there the outline of that
room in a general way?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, I really don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark that with the letter "C"?

Mr. SPECTER. That's fine. What happened when that gentleman
came to use the men's room?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the
wall to get in, and then when he came out he just walked off
and didn't push the stretcher back up against the wall, so I
pushed it out of the way where we would have clear area in
front of the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or
bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the
edge of the mat.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".

Clearly, Tomlinson said that the stretcher which held that
bullet, was already there when he brought Connally's
stretcher down.

He also said he was uncertain, but consider WHY he was uncertain.

"Now, I don't know how many people went through that---I
don't know how many people hit them--I don't know anything
about what could have happened to them in between the time I
was gone, and I made several trips before I discovered the
bullet on the end of it there."

IOW, he did not doubt that the "B" stretcher was already
there when he brought Connally's down, or that he recovered
the bullet from a stretcher in that location.

He just didn't know whether they had been rearranged while he
was gone.

>
>
> I can't find the FBI interview of Tomlinson. Do you have
> a link or are you relying on memory?

I'm relying on Tomlinson's statements that he discussed the
same things with them that he did with Spector.

Undoubtedly, he got a lot of heat from these guys who
hammered him with the "fact" that the FBI confirmed that
CE399 was from Oswald's rifle.

Of course, you have read my CE399 article and know as well as
I do, that CE399 was not fired during the assassination.


>
> Specter apparently had these documents in front of him
> when he questioned Tomlinson and was surprised when the
> witness contradicted himself.

Nonsense.

Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the
information which you have testified about, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it
was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off
of stretcher A, was it not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. B.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A
that you took off of the elevator.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.


> No wonder Specter seemed to
> "work him over." In later interviews Tomlinson continued to
> switch between which stretcher he thought the bullet was on.

Yes, but imagine how many times that govt. people insisted
that the bullet MUST have come off of Connally's stretcher,
since the FBI confirmed that CE399 was from Oswald's rifle.

How does he answer that, other than to just give up and think
that maybe he is getting early Alzheimers.

Tomlinson could not have known that the FBI replaced his
bullet and the one that actually wounded the two victims,
with one they fired in their labs.

How else can you explain the absence of the initials of
agents Johnsen and Todd on CE399? ALL of the initials by lab
personnel are present. But no others.

And the FACT that the bullet that wounded them was recovered
by a nurse, who told DA Wade and Officer Nolan that it was a
whole bullet from Connally's gurney - the same thing that
Connally himself said.

You have a nasty habit of isolating evidence and ignoring
facts which corroborate and tell us the whole story.

Honest investigators put the pieces together and when they
all fit, they know they have resolved the issue.




Robert Harris

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 10:03:08 PM11/13/16
to
ROFLMAO!!

You can't point to even ONE valid argument, can you.



Robert Harris



mainframetech

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 10:09:33 PM11/13/16
to
The story was verified to me through John McAdams. Please see him.
Not that you need his exact words, even if someone recorded them. It was
clear enough, and oddly was the same situation as with the Walker bullet.
Where the person that handled it originally knew that what was shown later
was NOT the original bullet.

Chris

John McAdams

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 10:12:51 PM11/13/16
to
On 13 Nov 2016 22:09:32 -0500, mainframetech <mainfr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>>
>> Tell us which of these 4 men who "refused" to identify CE399 said it
>> WASN'T the bullet they handled. Please use their words, not your spin on
>> what they said.
>
>
>
> The story was verified to me through John McAdams. Please see him.
>Not that you need his exact words, even if someone recorded them. It was
>clear enough, and oddly was the same situation as with the Walker bullet.
>Where the person that handled it originally knew that what was shown later
>was NOT the original bullet.
>
>

Nonsense!

Nobody said it wasn't the bullet they handled. The all said they
could not confirm that it was the precise bullet they handled, but
nobody in 1963/64 said it could not have been the bullet they handled.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 13, 2016, 10:55:15 PM11/13/16
to
Cruel thing to do to innocent lurkers. ;]>


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 9:59:37 AM11/14/16
to
Again, you confirm that you can't think through the implications of your
little scheme. How would you know what lurkers think?


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 1:38:56 PM11/14/16
to
There's not enough time in the day. Remember, we lost an hour.


Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 10:34:07 PM11/14/16
to
David Von Pein wrote:
> On Saturday, November 12, 2016 at 2:35:35 PM UTC-5, Robert Harris wrote:
>> David Von Pein wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 5:44:39 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, November 9, 2016 at 12:32:04 PM UTC-5, David Von Pein wrote:
>>>>> DARRELL C. TOMLINSON (PARTS 1, 2, and 3):
>>>>>
>>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-74.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-76.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-829.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's this? More excuses to hop over to your website? Why don't you
>>>> post some info here to save the time? Or do you need your hit count to be
>>>> increased?
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>
>>> You think it would "save the time" if I typed out all that stuff yet again
>>> in a fresh post (vs. linking to the exact same thing via links)?
>>>
>>> How would that activity save me (or anybody) any time? Please enlighten
>>> me.
>>
>> David, you know very well that there is NOTHING in those blog
>> articles that address what matters on this issue. Posting
>> links to totally irrelevant articles, is just a pathetic
>> attempt to evade the evidence.
>>
>> Talk about Wade, Nolan, Bell and how they corroborated John
>> Connally.

Yoohoo!! David!

Anybody home?

>>
>> Talk about the absence of the initials of agents Johnsen and
>> Todd on CE399.

Hello David?

You're gonna wear out those Nikes, ya know:-)

>>
>> Talk about how the FBI tried to silence Daryl Tomlinson after
>> they discovered that the bullet he found, didn't match large
>> fragments found in the limo.

Again, no argument?

And why do you suppose that on Saturday, 11/23, the FBI didn't hold a
press conference, gleefully announcing that they had PROOF that Oswald
fired the bullet that Tomlinson found?

After all, they had received fragments the night before that they could
use to confirm that Tomlinson's bullet was a match.

Why did they wait until months later, to present it to the WC,
immediately after Tomlinson testified?

>>
>> Talk about why, within one week after receiving those
>> bullets. Hoover was telling LBJ that Connally came between a
>> sniper and LBJ.

C'mon David.

By that time, Hoover had received all of the Parkland bullets and had
been able to test them against Oswald's rifle. How could he believe that
Connally was hit because he came between a sniper and JFK?

Do you suppose he thought Connally was sitting on the trunk?

>>
>> CE399 was NOT the bullet that wounded Connally. It wasn't
>> even involved in the assassination. That was PROVEN by hard
>> evidence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Harris
>
> ~yawn~

I'm sorry you find verifiable evidence so boring.

But is it possible that your evasion is not caused by boredom?

It is possible that you evade the evidence because you realize it proves
that Oswald did not act alone and that the FBI fabricated evidence?

>
> And maybe you should learn how to properly spell Mr. Tomlinson's first
> name, Bob.

You got me David!!

I spelled it wrong.

Now you have a victory under your belt!

But when will you be ready to discuss what matters?




Robert Harris



Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 10:34:55 PM11/14/16
to
And speaking of corroborations, the shot at 223, which wounded Connally
and probably JFK, was heard by virtually NO ONE. That includes ALL of
the surviving limo passengers, and "most" of the witnesses throughout
Dealey that day, as confirmed by the Warren Commission.

It is easy to prove that they heard a shot prior to 223, based on
matching up testimonies with visible reactions, but the 223 shot was
inaudible.

Had Oswald fired that shot, there would have been a 130 decibel, ear
shattering explosion that was 16 TIMES LOUDER than the level at which
involuntary startle reactions would appear.

Tell me Jean, where in your opinion, do you see reactions to an early
shot that were even remotely similar to these?

http://jfkhistory.com/285again.gif

People did react, but there was no ducking, spinning around at enormous
speed, shielding their ears, etc. etc.

And if Oswald had fired the shots, the early one would have seemed
louder to the passengers than the ones at the end, since they were
closer to the alleged sniper's nest then.

How do you explain that, Jean?

All of the pieces fit, from Dealey to Parkland, with only the exception
of obvious lies by the FBI.

Robert Harris

OHLeeRedux

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 10:36:27 PM11/14/16
to
> Robert Harris


Lurkers who really want to roll on the floor and laugh their asses off
should click the below link and scroll down to June 29, 2015. Follow the
debate from there to see Mr. Harris's theories raked over the coals by
people with more critical thinking ability in their left middle toenail
than he has in his whole body.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279669&page=42

:-)



bigdog

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 10:47:27 PM11/14/16
to
So you can't quote any of the four men saying CE399 was not the bullet
they handled. That's kind of what I thought.

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 10:56:32 PM11/14/16
to
One moment. You told me that the one fellow said that the shape was
different from the original bullet that he handled. Isn't that true?

As to the 4 men saying the bullet wasn't the one they handled, I said
'they refused to identify it'.

Chris

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 11:27:15 PM11/14/16
to
Where are the initials of Johnsen and Todd, John?

Besides the fact that they said they marked the Tomlinson
bullet, they were required to, to confirm the chain of custody.

The absence of those initials constitutes hard evidence that
CE399 was not the bullet they marked.

And why have you NEVER discussed the relevant statements of
Connally, Wade, Nolan and Audrey Bell?

Or the fact that after receiving and testing the Parkland
bullets, Hoover told his old friend LBJ, that Connally may
have come between a sniper and JFK??

That's a fascinating subject, don't you think?

We must also wonder why LBJ did not question Hoover's
statement. He was there and certainly knew that Connally was
sitting in front of the President.

Frankly, I don't think Hoover believed what he said. It was
just his way to let LBJ know there were accomplices in a way
that would not force him to lie when he denied conspiracy.

And in fact, over the years, LBJ made it clear that he knew
others were involved.



Robert Harris

OHLeeRedux

unread,
Nov 14, 2016, 11:34:37 PM11/14/16
to
As anyone with a reading comprehension level above that of a third grader
can see, I never claimed to "know what lurkers think," Anthony.

Again, you skim through the posts, pick out a word here and there, fire
off some inane, irrelevant comment, and then later, when someone points
out how ridiculous it is, claim you never said it.

Sad.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 15, 2016, 10:18:25 AM11/15/16
to
Something like that. What they called the limited hangout route in
Watergate. So, it doesn't matter to you if CE 399 is the exact bullet that
was found as long as it's an Oswald bullet. Lots of those floating around.
Pick one at random.

> .John
> -----------------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>


OHLeeRedux

unread,
Nov 15, 2016, 3:45:38 PM11/15/16
to
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 6:59:37 AM UTC-8, Anthony Marsh wrote:
In another thread you claimed to know what lurkers think because they hit
the LIKE button on a YouTube video. But of course you'll deny saying that.

Pitiful.

David Von Pein

unread,
Nov 15, 2016, 4:07:55 PM11/15/16
to
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:

And why do you suppose that on Saturday, 11/23, the FBI didn't hold a
press conference, gleefully announcing that they had PROOF that Oswald
fired the bullet that Tomlinson found?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You must be joking. The FBI would not want to reveal to the public and the
potential jury pool any specific details concerning the physical evidence
at that point in time on November 23, which was a time *before* Oswald was
shot and his trial was pending.

Even the talkative members of the DPD and the D.A.'s office (Curry, Wade,
and Fritz) wouldn't reveal any details to the press concerning the bullet
evidence on November 23rd. But you think the FBI would (or should) have
done such a thing? I kinda doubt it.

bigdog

unread,
Nov 15, 2016, 8:22:43 PM11/15/16
to
Bob's talking to himself again. At least this way he won't get any smart
answers.

bigdog

unread,
Nov 15, 2016, 8:23:18 PM11/15/16
to
Yes, we are well aware of that. It is the standard way conspiracy
hobbyists describe what those men said to try to create the impression
they were denying that CE399 was the bullet they saw. The real truth is
that they said it looked like the bullet they handled but had no way of
knowing for certain it was the same bullet since one bullet is going to
look much like another. This is the reason I asked you to quote what those
men actually said and the reason you refused to do so.

Jean Davison

unread,
Nov 15, 2016, 8:42:38 PM11/15/16
to
No. The conclusion was based on what Tomlinson told them. The document
continued:

"At the time he arrived at the elevator, a stretcher was on the elevator.
The stretcher contained some bloody sheets rolled in a ball, some medical
tools, two bandage pads, and a glove. Mr. Tomlinson stated that he removed
the stretcher from the elevator and placed it in a foyer ...."

Also interviewed were witnesses who saw Connally's stretcher upstairs.
Nurse Jane Wester, who helped move Connally to the OR table, said she
"rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered
with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end of
the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot identify, on
the other end of the stretcher" and asked orderly Jimison to take it to
the elevator. Jimison said he saw the nurse roll up the bloody sheets and
put them on the stretcher.

There were no bloody rolled-up sheets on the other stretcher.

Tomlinson repeatedly told Specter he wasn't sure which of the two stretchers
came off the elevator. Understandable, since he had no reason to pay
attention to either one until he found the bullet. But he did remember what
else was on that particular stretcher:

Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out
that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".
Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I
didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east end
of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end and a
sterile pack or so.

It follows that the one with the bullet had to be Connally's stretcher,
since this was the only one with rolled-up bloody sheets and various
medical items. It was the one Tomlinson took off the elevator, whether he
remembered it or not.

[snip]

>> I can't find the FBI interview of Tomlinson. Do you have
>> a link or are you relying on memory?
>
> I'm relying on Tomlinson's statements that he discussed the same things
> with them that he did with Spector.
>

So you don't actually know what Tomlinson told the FBI. You assumed
you knew, and stated it as fact. Shouldn't do that, Robert.

[snip]

> And the FACT that the bullet that wounded them was recovered by a
> nurse....

I hope you noticed that in the same Secret Service document an OR
nurse named Standridge "stated she did not see or hear any bullet fall
from the Governor's clothes at the time she was undressing him..."

Robert, I've snipped because I'm not going over all this old ground
again. I only wanted to know what you were referring to when you wrote,
"[Tomlinson] originally told both the Secret Service and the FBI it came
off a different stretcher." BTW, if that were true, why would Specter even
bring up these earlier interviews? That doesn't fit your theory that he
was trying to hide the truth. It fits my theory that Specter was trying to
jog Tomlinson's memory.

Jean

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 15, 2016, 8:57:45 PM11/15/16
to
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 10:56:32 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
JOHN......I asked you a question above. Could you answer it please?

> Chris


John McAdams

unread,
Nov 15, 2016, 9:01:45 PM11/15/16
to
On 15 Nov 2016 20:57:44 -0500, mainframetech <mainfr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Tomlinson told Tink Thompson a few years later that the bullet he
handled had a pointy nose.

That's not what he said in 1964.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/399doc.jpg

Read what I wrote above: "1963/64."

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Bud

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 1:24:30 AM11/16/16
to
By all means, tell us what they said about a bullet falling from
Connally`s bed and a nurse picking it up.

> >>
> >> Talk about the absence of the initials of agents Johnsen and
> >> Todd on CE399.
>
> Hello David?
>
> You're gonna wear out those Nikes, ya know:-)

How many times does he need to address this?

> >>
> >> Talk about how the FBI tried to silence Daryl Tomlinson after
> >> they discovered that the bullet he found, didn't match large
> >> fragments found in the limo.
>
> Again, no argument?
>
> And why do you suppose that on Saturday, 11/23, the FBI didn't hold a
> press conference, gleefully announcing that they had PROOF that Oswald
> fired the bullet that Tomlinson found?
>
> After all, they had received fragments the night before that they could
> use to confirm that Tomlinson's bullet was a match.
>
> Why did they wait until months later, to present it to the WC,
> immediately after Tomlinson testified?

Why are you always trying to shift the burden?

> >>
> >> Talk about why, within one week after receiving those
> >> bullets. Hoover was telling LBJ that Connally came between a
> >> sniper and LBJ.
>
> C'mon David.
>
> By that time, Hoover had received all of the Parkland bullets and had
> been able to test them against Oswald's rifle. How could he believe that
> Connally was hit because he came between a sniper and JFK?
>
> Do you suppose he thought Connally was sitting on the trunk?

He obviously had a poor understanding of the facts of the case.

> >>
> >> CE399 was NOT the bullet that wounded Connally. It wasn't
> >> even involved in the assassination. That was PROVEN by hard
> >> evidence.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Robert Harris
> >
> > ~yawn~
>
> I'm sorry you find verifiable evidence so boring.
>
> But is it possible that your evasion is not caused by boredom?
>
> It is possible that you evade the evidence because you realize it proves
> that Oswald did not act alone and that the FBI fabricated evidence?

What prevents you from making compelling arguments that this is the
case?

> >
> > And maybe you should learn how to properly spell Mr. Tomlinson's first
> > name, Bob.
>
> You got me David!!
>
> I spelled it wrong.
>
> Now you have a victory under your belt!
>
> But when will you be ready to discuss what matters?

Certainly not your ideas. It seems that for the most part people have
looked at them and found them to be uncompelling. Do you expect this to
change if you keep repeating the same things?

>
>
>
> Robert Harris


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 1:28:40 AM11/16/16
to
You know, you'd save some time if you just put your attacks on a function
key and use that function key any time you see a message from me.



Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 11:30:10 AM11/16/16
to
On 11/14/2016 11:27 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> John McAdams wrote:
>> On 13 Nov 2016 22:09:32 -0500, mainframetech <mainfr...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Tell us which of these 4 men who "refused" to identify CE399 said it
>>>> WASN'T the bullet they handled. Please use their words, not your
>>>> spin on
>>>> what they said.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The story was verified to me through John McAdams. Please see him.
>>> Not that you need his exact words, even if someone recorded them. It
>>> was
>>> clear enough, and oddly was the same situation as with the Walker
>>> bullet.
>>> Where the person that handled it originally knew that what was shown
>>> later
>>> was NOT the original bullet.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Nonsense!
>>
>> Nobody said it wasn't the bullet they handled. The all said they
>> could not confirm that it was the precise bullet they handled, but
>> nobody in 1963/64 said it could not have been the bullet they handled.
>
> Where are the initials of Johnsen and Todd, John?
>
> Besides the fact that they said they marked the Tomlinson bullet, they
> were required to, to confirm the chain of custody.
>

So you think John Hunt was lying?

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 11:40:47 AM11/16/16
to
On 11/15/2016 4:07 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>
> And why do you suppose that on Saturday, 11/23, the FBI didn't hold a
> press conference, gleefully announcing that they had PROOF that Oswald
> fired the bullet that Tomlinson found?
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> You must be joking. The FBI would not want to reveal to the public and the
> potential jury pool any specific details concerning the physical evidence
> at that point in time on November 23, which was a time *before* Oswald was
> shot and his trial was pending.
>

Ah, it wasn't their case.

> Even the talkative members of the DPD and the D.A.'s office (Curry, Wade,
> and Fritz) wouldn't reveal any details to the press concerning the bullet
> evidence on November 23rd. But you think the FBI would (or should) have
> done such a thing? I kinda doubt it.
>


Was there even time for the FBI lab to tell Dallas everything they had
determined?


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 11:45:00 AM11/16/16
to
No, they are not LURKERS there. They are viewers.

> Pitiful.
>


Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 2:38:05 PM11/16/16
to
Jean, you seem to have lost track of the conversation. Your original
assertion was:

"First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher"

I replied:

"Yes, but HE didn't say that and the Secret Service didn't claim he did.
That was their conclusion, not his."

You then cited the SS report in which they said the stretcher bore:

"some medical tools, two bandage pads, and a glove"

And nothing else.

You were supposed to site them claiming that Tomlinson said the bullet was
on that particular stretcher. But you did not; you only misrepresented
your own citation by claiming it did.

>
> Also interviewed were witnesses who saw Connally's stretcher upstairs.
> Nurse Jane Wester, who helped move Connally to the OR table, said she
> "rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered
> with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end
> of the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot identify,
> on the other end of the stretcher" and asked orderly Jimison to take it
> to the elevator. Jimison said he saw the nurse roll up the bloody sheets
> and put them on the stretcher.

There is no doubt that Tomlinson brought Connally's stretcher down on
the elevator. But there was no bullet on it.

As you know all too well, the bullet from that "gurney", was recovered on
the second floor by a nurse, who showed it to DA Wade and gave it to
officer Nolan, who delivered it to the DPD that evening.

Connally confirmed that fact himself, and nurse Audrey Bell put the lie
to the FBI's claim that she gave tiny wrist fragments to Nolan.

>
> There were no bloody rolled-up sheets on the other stretcher.

Really?

When you accidentally emailed me your post a few hours ago, you made
that same assertion and I asked you for a citation and source.

I'm still waiting.

>
> Tomlinson repeatedly told Specter he wasn't sure which of the two
> stretchers came off the elevator. Understandable, since he had no reason
> to pay attention to either one until he found the bullet. But he did
> remember what else was on that particular stretcher:
>
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
> out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
> Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".
> Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I
> didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east
> end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end
> and a sterile pack or so.

This is a poor argument, Jean. Any stretcher with a bullet on it is
probably going to be accompanied by bloody sheets, for obvious reasons.

>
> It follows that the one with the bullet

The *one* with the bullet?

You haven't proven that, Jean.

You haven't even tried.


> had to be Connally's stretcher,
> since this was the only one with rolled-up bloody sheets and various
> medical items.

That's the third time you have made this unsupported assertion. I just
reread all of this man's testimony and he NEVER said that.

> It was the one Tomlinson took off the elevator, whether
> he remembered it or not.

You will always come to false conclusions when you base them on false
evidence.

Where did you hear this blurtation that there were no bloody sheets on
the "A" stretcher?

>
> [snip]
>
>>> I can't find the FBI interview of Tomlinson. Do you have
>>> a link or are you relying on memory?
>>
>> I'm relying on Tomlinson's statements that he discussed the same things
>> with them that he did with Spector.
>>
>
> So you don't actually know what Tomlinson told the FBI. You assumed
> you knew, and stated it as fact. Shouldn't do that, Robert.

Of course I do. Those interviews were discussed in his testimony. He
told them essentially the same thing that he told Spector.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the
same thing as you have told me today?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

and..

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about
the same thing we've gone over here.

Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If Tomlinson
had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A" stretcher, he
would have been shouting that to the rooftops and asking Tomlinson why he
changed his story.

He couldn't do that because Tomlinson did not tell either the FBI or the
SS that. They never claimed he did.

That's why the citation you've presented on behalf of your theory, does
not claim that he said the bullet was on the "A" stretcher. And unless
I've overlooked something, neither did anything else the Secret Service
said.

>
> [snip]
>
>> And the FACT that the bullet that wounded them was recovered by a
>> nurse....
>
> I hope you noticed that in the same Secret Service document an OR
> nurse named Standridge "stated she did not see or hear any bullet fall
> from the Governor's clothes at the time she was undressing him..."

Of course she didn't. Connally was very specific that the bullet fell as
he was being transferred from his stretcher to an operating table on the
second floor. His clothing was removed on the first floor.


>
> Robert, I've snipped because I'm not going over all this old ground
> again.

I don't think so, Jean. I think you snipped because you have no
plausible rebuttal to this evidence.

It is critical to understand that Tomlinson couldn't have found a bullet
on Connally's stretcher, since it was already recovered by that nurse.
It is predictable that he would deny that he did.

And why did you snip the part when I pointed out that you misrepresented
Spector, claiming he was surprised that Tomlinson selected the "B"
stretcher?

He already knew that, based on their previous conversation(s). This is
what you snipped:

Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you
have testified about, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your
recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was
it not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. B.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you
took off of the elevator.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.


Why would you choose to delete that citation rather than simply admit
that you were wrong?

> I only wanted to know what you were referring to when you wrote,
> "[Tomlinson] originally told both the Secret Service and the FBI it came
> off a different stretcher." BTW, if that were true, why would Specter
> even bring up these earlier interviews? That doesn't fit your theory
> that he was trying to hide the truth.

When did I claim he was "trying to hide the truth"?

Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If Tomlinson
had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A" stretcher, he
would have been shouting that to the rooftops, just as the FBI would have
made the Tomlinson FD-302 public, if he had chosen the PC stretcher:-)

> It fits my theory that Specter was
> trying to jog Tomlinson's memory.

I do not try to read the minds of the dead, Jean. And Spector's
motivations are irrelevant. All that matters is what Tomlinson did and saw.

Perhaps, the most important part of his testimony was when he pointed
out that the bullet fell when he was pushing the stretcher, which had
been moved by someone using the rest room, back in place.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly, but
an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's room there
in the elevator lobby...

Mr. SPECTER. ..What happened when that gentleman came to use the men's
room?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get in,
and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the stretcher
back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where we would
have clear area in front of the elevator.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat. (unquote)

Let's take another look at that diagram, shall we?

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg

ONLY THE B STRETCHER WAS BLOCKING THE RESTROOM.

ONLY THE B STRETCHER.

That was the stretcher which held the bullet that Tomlinson found.
That's why he said that the only way he could be wrong was if someone
rearranged them, but why would anyone do that?

I will look forward your efforts to spin that one:-)




Robert Harris

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 4:31:23 PM11/16/16
to
To add to the record we're making, here are comments elicited from
Wright in 2002 By Thompson and Aguilar:

"Thompson and his colleague Gary Aguilar sought out the memo’s
author, FBI agent Bardwell Odum, and interviewed him about this
contradictory evidence in 2002. Incredibly, Odum said that he never had
possession of the magic bullet. Odum added that even though it was highly
unlikely that he forgot such a significant event, the established
procedure was to write up a report about something that important. No such
memo has been found in the National Archives, despite numerous searches.
The use of Odum’s identity is another astonishing piece of
fabricated evidence."

From: http://jfkfacts.org/csi-jfk-the-chain-of-custody-for-the-magic-bullet/

That basically invalidates that memo shown talking about Bardwell Odum
as speaking with various witnesses and showing them the CE399 bullet. I
suggest that since there has been so many false statements by the FBI into
their private 302 reports (proven), that this memo may be yet another for
the purposes of supporting the 'lone nut' theory which they often did.

Unfortunately, the memo didn't mention whether it was an FBI report or
what it was, and page 2 is missing.

Chris

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 4:33:50 PM11/16/16
to
Jean,

We can argue that the right or wrong gurney was the source of the
CE399 bullet, however, the problem continues into the realm of the
physical bullet compared to a test bullet. First, here's a WC photo of
the CE399 (far left) and a test bullet (CE572, 2nd and 3rd image from
left):

http://www.jfk-info.com/Exf294.gif

Both of the 2 bullets have a slight bend and flattening in the middle,
and they both also are missing a tiny bit of material at the tail end.
Other than that, they are both undamaged. Here is a photo of the end of
the CE399 bullet:

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/bhdocs/ce399_2.jpg

Note that there is a bit of material missing from the base of the
bullet. The FBI lab took a sample from the lead at the tail end, and the
copper from the nose of the bullet, which explains the scooped out bit.
There is not enough material missing to have been the bullet that hit
Connally. First, there is the plastic box with the 4 fragments that
Audrey Bell handed over (see above), then there's the fragments left in
the wrist, and the one in the thigh.

My suggestion that the CE399 is a test bullet is supported by the fact
that the CE399 bullet was in the care of the FBI bullet custodian the same
day it was found. The very next day after the murder the same bullet
custodian fired 60 or more rounds into various materials from the MC rifle
of Oswald's, giving a large supply of bullets fired from the MC rifle.
It would be an easy thing to replace the original pointed nose bullet from
the gurney, with a test bullet from Saturday's testing. No one ever
counted the remaining test bullets.

Further support for the replacement of the CE399 bullet is that the
exact same situation happened with the Walker bullet! That bullet was
reported by 2 detectives in their official Report that it was STEEL
jacketed and mangled beyond using for matching and determining caliber.
After Dec. 4th, the Sealed box of Walker evidence was opened and it was
reported that the bullet now had a COPPER jacket! As well, the image
shown to the public showed there was enough material to determine caliber
and to match to a rifle. Walker himself was a witness to the original
bullet fired at him, and when he saw the bullet the authorities showed to
the public, he demanded they withdraw it, since it was NOT the original
bullet! He had his lawyer send letter to that effect also. They ignored
him.

So 2 bullets in 2 separate cases could not be identified by those that
had seen them originally. Both were in the hands of the FBI bullet
custodian, and could have easily been replaced from the stock of test
bullets from the MC rifle. Those replacements explain the lack of
identification and the incorrect appearance of the bullets as well. If
those problems could be explained another way, let me know.

Chris

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 8:01:10 PM11/16/16
to
Of course you ask such silly questions, since you know that there isn't
anyplace that their responses are recorded. And when I don't come up with
the actual quoted words, you then run around crowing that it was false
information. A typical hobbyist gimmick. However, there is this:

" A private researcher, Josiah Thompson, tracked down Wright in November
1966 and asked him about the bullet. In the presence of two witnesses,
Wright replied that the bullet he had seen possessed a pointed tip rather
than the rounded tip of the CE 399 bullet; see Josiah Thompson, Six
Seconds in Dallas: a Micro–Study of the Kennedy Assassination, New
York: Bernard Geis Associates for Random House, 1967, p.175."

From: http://22november1963.org.uk/ce-399-magic-bullet-planted-or-genuine

Chris

OHLeeRedux

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 8:09:05 PM11/16/16
to
A non-response. Well, I guess that's better than your denying having said
what is still right there on the screen. Keep up the good work!

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 8:21:31 PM11/16/16
to
Bed? WTF are you babbling about now? No one said bed.

bigdog

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 10:59:40 PM11/16/16
to
I've always said that your way of dealing with evidence is to invent
excuses to dismiss it. Thank you for once again giving us a fine example
of that.

David Von Pein

unread,
Nov 16, 2016, 11:05:02 PM11/16/16
to
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:

This is a poor argument, Jean [Davison]. Any stretcher with a bullet on it
is probably going to be accompanied by bloody sheets, for obvious reasons.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

When Darrell Tomlinson was interviewed by Ray Marcus in July of 1966,
Tomlinson said that the stretcher he took off the elevator had "some
surgical instruments" and "sheets rolled up" on it. But he told Marcus he
didn't remember if the sheets were bloody or not (Page 1)....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html

Do some conspiracy theorists now contend that BOTH of the stretchers
Tomlinson saw in the Parkland corridor on 11/22/63 had bloody sheets AND
surgical instruments on them? I suppose that is, indeed, a possibility,
but I don't recall any CTer ever making that claim in the past. ~shrug~

Jean Davison

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 5:08:38 PM11/17/16
to
Didn't you read it? Only one stretcher is ever mentioned -- "THE
stretcher" that "Tomlinson stated" he removed from the elevator.

".... This area was secured by the Secret Service and only hospital
personnel and officers were allowed inside. Mr. Tomlinson stated *the
stretcher* was left unattended for about an hour, then he walked to *the
stretcher* and moved it by shoving *the stretcher* against a wall. At that
point he noticed the bullet come rolling out from under the pad on *the
stretcher*...." [my emphasis]

>
>>
>> Also interviewed were witnesses who saw Connally's stretcher upstairs.
>> Nurse Jane Wester, who helped move Connally to the OR table, said she
>> "rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered
>> with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end
>> of the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot identify,
>> on the other end of the stretcher" and asked orderly Jimison to take it
>> to the elevator. Jimison said he saw the nurse roll up the bloody sheets
>> and put them on the stretcher.
>
> There is no doubt that Tomlinson brought Connally's stretcher down on
> the elevator. But there was no bullet on it.

Then how do you explain the stretcher with rolled-up sheets and
medical instruments that OR witnesses said Connally was on? It was put on
the elevator and sent downstairs, so what happened to that one, Robert?

>
> As you know all too well, the bullet from that "gurney", was recovered
> on the second floor by a nurse, who showed it to DA Wade and gave it to
> officer Nolan, who delivered it to the DPD that evening.
>
> Connally confirmed that fact himself, and nurse Audrey Bell put the lie
> to the FBI's claim that she gave tiny wrist fragments to Nolan.
>

No.

>>
>> There were no bloody rolled-up sheets on the other stretcher.
>
> Really?
>
> When you accidentally emailed me your post a few hours ago, you made
> that same assertion and I asked you for a citation and source.
>
> I'm still waiting.

I asked you to reply to me here, now you have.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?
Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will,
please.
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white
covering on the pad.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but
I don't believe there was.

>
>>
>> Tomlinson repeatedly told Specter he wasn't sure which of the two
>> stretchers came off the elevator. Understandable, since he had no reason
>> to pay attention to either one until he found the bullet. But he did
>> remember what else was on that particular stretcher:
>>
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
>> out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
>> Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".
>> Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I
>> didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east
>> end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end
>> and a sterile pack or so.
>
> This is a poor argument, Jean. Any stretcher with a bullet on it is
> probably going to be accompanied by bloody sheets, for obvious reasons.
>

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying there. My argument is that
memories change over time, which is a proven fact. By the time he
testified Tomlinson mis-remembered which stretcher came off the elevator,
but he could still describe the articles on it.

[snip]

>>>> I can't find the FBI interview of Tomlinson. Do you have
>>>> a link or are you relying on memory?
>>>
>>> I'm relying on Tomlinson's statements that he discussed the same things
>>> with them that he did with Spector.
>>>
>>
>> So you don't actually know what Tomlinson told the FBI. You assumed
>> you knew, and stated it as fact. Shouldn't do that, Robert.
>
> Of course I do. Those interviews were discussed in his testimony. He
> told them essentially the same thing that he told Spector.
>
> Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the
> same thing as you have told me today?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Classic quote out of context that distorts the original:

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret
Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. What do you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. You say you can't really take an oath today to be sure
whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, today or any other day, I'm just not sure of it,
whether it was A or B that I took off.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the
situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service man
and when you talked to the FBI man?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; I told him that I wasn't sure.
Mr. SPECTER. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the
same thing as you have told me today?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

This was about four months after the Secret Service and FBI
interviews. Memories change, that's a fact.

>
> and..
>
> Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
> Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about
> the same thing we've gone over here.

Yes, the FBI asked him about the stretchers, same thing Specter
asked him about.


> Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If
> Tomlinson had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A"
> stretcher, he would have been shouting that to the rooftops and asking
> Tomlinson why he changed his story.

Your assumption.
>
> He couldn't do that because Tomlinson did not tell either the FBI or the
> SS that. They never claimed he did.
>
> That's why the citation you've presented on behalf of your theory, does
> not claim that he said the bullet was on the "A" stretcher. And unless
> I've overlooked something, neither did anything else the Secret Service
> said.

Read it again.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fa%2Fpatspeer.com%2Fwww2%2Ftomlinson_darrell_c.pdf%3Fattredirects%3D0%26d%3D1&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFCebgYcQG916DGmFuZpT-C1mnIGQ

>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> And the FACT that the bullet that wounded them was recovered by a
>>> nurse....
>>
>> I hope you noticed that in the same Secret Service document an OR
>> nurse named Standridge "stated she did not see or hear any bullet fall
>> from the Governor's clothes at the time she was undressing him..."
>
> Of course she didn't. Connally was very specific that the bullet fell as
> he was being transferred from his stretcher to an operating table on the
> second floor. His clothing was removed on the first floor.
>

Sorry, I should've said "ER nurse," not "OR." Standridge testified
that she helped remove his clothing in Emergency Room #2 on the first
floor and:

Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?
Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
Miss STANDRIDGE - No.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
Miss STANDRIDGE - I didn't.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/standridge.htm


>
>>
>> Robert, I've snipped because I'm not going over all this old ground
>> again.
>
> I don't think so, Jean. I think you snipped because you have no
> plausible rebuttal to this evidence.
>
> It is critical to understand that Tomlinson couldn't have found a bullet
> on Connally's stretcher, since it was already recovered by that nurse.
> It is predictable that he would deny that he did.

He denied he found a bullet???

>
> And why did you snip the part when I pointed out that you misrepresented
> Spector, claiming he was surprised that Tomlinson selected the "B"
> stretcher?
>
> He already knew that, based on their previous conversation(s). This is
> what you snipped:
>
> Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you
> have testified about, did we not?
>
> Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
>
> Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your
> recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was
> it not?
>
> Mr. TOMLINSON. B.
>
> Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you
> took off of the elevator.
>
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.
>
>
> Why would you choose to delete that citation rather than simply admit
> that you were wrong?

In my view Specter read the FBI and SS reports and probably
wasn't expecting Tomlinson to tell a different story, whether during
their initial discussion or in his testimony.

>
>> I only wanted to know what you were referring to when you wrote,
>> "[Tomlinson] originally told both the Secret Service and the FBI it came
>> off a different stretcher." BTW, if that were true, why would Specter
>> even bring up these earlier interviews? That doesn't fit your theory
>> that he was trying to hide the truth.
>
> When did I claim he was "trying to hide the truth"?
>
> Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If
> Tomlinson had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A"
> stretcher, he would have been shouting that to the rooftops, just as the
> FBI would have made the Tomlinson FD-302 public, if he had chosen the PC
> stretcher:-)

This is reasoning based on suspicion, which isn't a reliable
source. You are *assuming* this is what they "would have" done.

>
>> It fits my theory that Specter was
>> trying to jog Tomlinson's memory.
>
> I do not try to read the minds of the dead, Jean.

Of course you do. You just did!

[snip]
> Let's take another look at that diagram, shall we?
>
> http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg
>
> ONLY THE B STRETCHER WAS BLOCKING THE RESTROOM.
>
> ONLY THE B STRETCHER.
>
> That was the stretcher which held the bullet that Tomlinson found.
> That's why he said that the only way he could be wrong was if someone
> rearranged them, but why would anyone do that?

Please cut and paste Tomlinson saying the only way he could be
wrong was if someone rearranged them:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tomlinso.htm

Good luck with that, you're gonna need it.
Jean

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 5:13:19 PM11/17/16
to
Silly girl. Why would he bring up Jean Hill's earlier comments?
To discredit the witness.
Have you even read Six Seconds in Dallas?


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 5:21:12 PM11/17/16
to
Now, that's not fair, Robert. You are asking a WC defender to actually
CITE [SIC] the WC. How cruel can you get? Have you no empathy at long
last?

>>
>> Also interviewed were witnesses who saw Connally's stretcher upstairs.
>> Nurse Jane Wester, who helped move Connally to the OR table, said she
>> "rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered
>> with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end
>> of the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot identify,
>> on the other end of the stretcher" and asked orderly Jimison to take it
>> to the elevator. Jimison said he saw the nurse roll up the bloody sheets
>> and put them on the stretcher.
>
> There is no doubt that Tomlinson brought Connally's stretcher down on
> the elevator. But there was no bullet on it.
>
> As you know all too well, the bullet from that "gurney", was recovered
> on the second floor by a nurse, who showed it to DA Wade and gave it to
> officer Nolan, who delivered it to the DPD that evening.
>

You're ASSuMING. You haven't proved.

> Connally confirmed that fact himself, and nurse Audrey Bell put the lie
> to the FBI's claim that she gave tiny wrist fragments to Nolan.
>

Where did he confirm any fact?

>>
>> There were no bloody rolled-up sheets on the other stretcher.
>
> Really?
>
> When you accidentally emailed me your post a few hours ago, you made
> that same assertion and I asked you for a citation and source.
>
> I'm still waiting.
>

We thought you ran away again.

>>
>> Tomlinson repeatedly told Specter he wasn't sure which of the two
>> stretchers came off the elevator. Understandable, since he had no reason
>> to pay attention to either one until he found the bullet. But he did
>> remember what else was on that particular stretcher:
>>
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
>> out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
>> Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".
>> Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I
>> didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east
>> end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end
>> and a sterile pack or so.
>
> This is a poor argument, Jean. Any stretcher with a bullet on it is
> probably going to be accompanied by bloody sheets, for obvious reasons.
>

False logic. How about if it came from little Ronnie Fuller's cart which
had bloody sheets on it?

>>
>> It follows that the one with the bullet
>
> The *one* with the bullet?
>
> You haven't proven that, Jean.
>
> You haven't even tried.
>

She doesn't have to. She's a WC defender.
She doesn't have to prove anything.

>
>> had to be Connally's stretcher,
>> since this was the only one with rolled-up bloody sheets and various
>> medical items.
>
> That's the third time you have made this unsupported assertion. I just
> reread all of this man's testimony and he NEVER said that.
>
>> It was the one Tomlinson took off the elevator, whether
>> he remembered it or not.
>
> You will always come to false conclusions when you base them on false
> evidence.
>
> Where did you hear this blurtation that there were no bloody sheets on
> the "A" stretcher?
>

Where did you hear this blurtation that Connally heard a bullet fall to
the floor?
Where did Connally say that? He didn't.
Doesn't mean he knew them by heart the way you do.

> Tomlinson had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A"
> stretcher, he would have been shouting that to the rooftops, just as the
> FBI would have made the Tomlinson FD-302 public, if he had chosen the PC
> stretcher:-)
>
>> It fits my theory that Specter was
>> trying to jog Tomlinson's memory.
>
> I do not try to read the minds of the dead, Jean. And Spector's
> motivations are irrelevant. All that matters is what Tomlinson did and saw.
>

I like it when you intentionally misspell names. It makes me think that
you are trying to pretend that you are one of the kids who just heard
about the assassination and thought up a cute theory. But I wish you would
try making the names more sinister. Maybe you could say Spectre, like in
the James Bond movies!

> Perhaps, the most important part of his testimony was when he pointed
> out that the bullet fell when he was pushing the stretcher, which had
> been moved by someone using the rest room, back in place.
>
> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, sir; I don't recall how long it had been exactly,
> but an intern or doctor, I didn't know which, came to use the men's room
> there in the elevator lobby...
>
> Mr. SPECTER. ..What happened when that gentleman came to use the men's
> room?
>
> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get
> in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the
> stretcher back up against the wall, so I pushed it out of the way where
> we would have clear area in front of the elevator.
>

Was that gentleman rather heavy-set and wearing an incredibly ugly
Fedora? Did they show him any pictures?

> Mr. SPECTER. And where did you push it to?
>
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I pushed it back up against the wall.
>
> Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?
>
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
> out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat. (unquote)
>

Apparently? And that's definitive proof of what exactly?

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 7:37:24 PM11/17/16
to
911 Research? And you think that makes it credible?
You're in the wrong newsgroup.

> Note that there is a bit of material missing from the base of the
> bullet. The FBI lab took a sample from the lead at the tail end, and the
> copper from the nose of the bullet, which explains the scooped out bit.
> There is not enough material missing to have been the bullet that hit
> Connally. First, there is the plastic box with the 4 fragments that

We don't know that.
And you don't know that the only material missing is what the FBI and
Guinn drilled out for testing.

> Audrey Bell handed over (see above), then there's the fragments left in
> the wrist, and the one in the thigh.
>
> My suggestion that the CE399 is a test bullet is supported by the fact
> that the CE399 bullet was in the care of the FBI bullet custodian the same
> day it was found. The very next day after the murder the same bullet
> custodian fired 60 or more rounds into various materials from the MC rifle
> of Oswald's, giving a large supply of bullets fired from the MC rifle.
> It would be an easy thing to replace the original pointed nose bullet from
> the gurney, with a test bullet from Saturday's testing. No one ever
> counted the remaining test bullets.
>
> Further support for the replacement of the CE399 bullet is that the
> exact same situation happened with the Walker bullet! That bullet was
> reported by 2 detectives in their official Report that it was STEEL
> jacketed and mangled beyond using for matching and determining caliber.
> After Dec. 4th, the Sealed box of Walker evidence was opened and it was
> reported that the bullet now had a COPPER jacket! As well, the image
> shown to the public showed there was enough material to determine caliber
> and to match to a rifle. Walker himself was a witness to the original
> bullet fired at him, and when he saw the bullet the authorities showed to
> the public, he demanded they withdraw it, since it was NOT the original
> bullet! He had his lawyer send letter to that effect also. They ignored
> him.
>

More nonsense. You've been corrected thousands of times yet you still
keep repeating this nonsense.

> So 2 bullets in 2 separate cases could not be identified by those that
> had seen them originally. Both were in the hands of the FBI bullet
> custodian, and could have easily been replaced from the stock of test
> bullets from the MC rifle. Those replacements explain the lack of
> identification and the incorrect appearance of the bullets as well. If
> those problems could be explained another way, let me know.
>

Jeez, you're not trying hard enough. I bet you could find a lot more
screw-ups by the FBI if you dug deeper. Incompetence is not always
conspiracy.

> Chris
>


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 7:37:34 PM11/17/16
to
Talk to John Hunt.

> Chris
>


mainframetech

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 10:26:50 PM11/17/16
to
It wouldn't matter, since the CE399 bullet wasn't a normal bullet.
It was shown to be a test bullet using a WC photo allowing a comparison of
the CE399 to a test bullet. See my response to Jean.

Chris

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 10:27:33 PM11/17/16
to
WRONG! Don't be ridiculous! I never do like you and dismiss
evidence. It all has use one way or another. I've made a comment about a
bit of evidence, and hopefully, the rest of the memo will magically appear
from whence the first page came from.

I note that you didn't dare jump in on the Bardwell Odum comment I
copied in for you. You know where he was asked about showing the bullet
to people, and him saying that he had never seen the bullet and never
showed anything to the people in question. another lie from the FBI.
Yep, there were problems with the chain of custody of the CE399 bullet.

Chris

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 10:55:00 PM11/17/16
to
David Von Pein wrote:
> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>
> This is a poor argument, Jean [Davison]. Any stretcher with a bullet on it
> is probably going to be accompanied by bloody sheets, for obvious reasons.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> When Darrell Tomlinson was interviewed by Ray Marcus in July of 1966,
> Tomlinson said that the stretcher he took off the elevator had "some
> surgical instruments" and "sheets rolled up" on it. But he told Marcus he
> didn't remember if the sheets were bloody or not (Page 1)....

I don't get your point. Are you saying the stretcher he
brought down was not Connally's?

>
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html
>
> Do some conspiracy theorists now contend that BOTH of the stretchers
> Tomlinson saw in the Parkland corridor on 11/22/63 had bloody sheets AND
> surgical instruments on them?

David, this is a hospital for god's sake, in a city that's
full of rednecks who ride around with rifles mounted in the
cabs of the pickups:-)

Of course, Connally's stretcher had bloody sheets on it. But
so did the one that held the bullet that Tomlinson found, as
he testified.

>I suppose that is, indeed, a possibility,
> but I don't recall any CTer ever making that claim in the past. ~shrug~

Parkland treats an average of 2-3 gunshot victims per day.
There are probably days when they treat none and other days
when they treat half a dozen or more.

And that elevator was right next to the ER on the second
floor, so it's not at all surprising that there was another
stretcher that held a gunshot victim.


Robert Harris

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 10:55:36 PM11/17/16
to
bigdog wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2016 at 7:50:08 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 5:39:04 PM UTC-5, Robert Harris wrote:
>>> David Von Pein wrote:
>>>> DARRELL C. TOMLINSON (PARTS 1, 2, and 3):
>>>>
>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-74.html
>>>>
>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-76.html
>>>>
>>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-829.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> The only remotely relevant statemen in those blogs, among all
>>> those ugly ad hominem attacks on your adversaries, was the
>>> one in which you pointed out that in 1967, Tomlinson said
>>> that the bullet he found, did come off of Connally's stretcher.
>>>
>>> But that was NOT his original, earliest recollection, which
>>> is all any honest researcher should care about. He originally
>>> told both the Secret Service and the FBI that it came off a
>>> different stretcher.
>>>
>>> After being worked over by Spector, he then said he wasn't
>>> certain.
>>>
>>> So, why would he have changed his story, 4 years later?
>>>
>>> Well, put yourself in his shoes. How many times do you
>>> suppose this conversation took place between Tomlinson and
>>> Spector or other govt. advocates?
>>>
>>> T: That bullet didn't come off of Connally's stretcher.
>>>
>>> G: But Daryl, the FBI examined it and concluded that it came
>>> from Oswald's rifle! You don't think the FBI would lie do
>>> you? Haw, haw, haw.
>>>
>>>
>>> How does he reply, David? At some point, he has to conclude
>>> that his memory must be faulty. If only he knew what we know
>>> now:-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> The bullet that later was declared to be from the MC rifle was indeed
>> from that rifle, but it was not fired from the TSBD, it was fired as part
>> of test firing the MC rifle by the bullet custodian. That was done the
>> very next day after the murder. They fired over 60 bullets into various
>> materials and so the bullet custodian had many samples of MC rifle bullets
>> available to him. The bullet found at Parkland hospital on the WRONG
>> gurney was pointy nosed, according to one of the 4 men who handled it that
>> day. Later when they were asked to identify that bullet, they all
>> refused, and one of them said that it was the wrong shape, that the bullet
>> shown was 'round nosed' which was not the original bullet. Those were the
>> indications that it was NOT the ORIGINAL bullet found on the WRONG gurney.
>>
>
> Tell us which of these 4 men who "refused" to identify CE399 said it
> WASN'T the bullet they handled. Please use their words, not your spin on
> what they said.

Consider SA Johnsen. He told Clint Hill that he initialed the
Parkland bullet, which of course, he was required to do.

If he saw his initial on CE399, he would have confirmed it,
don't you think?

So, why do you suppose he refused to do that, John?




Robert Harris



Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 10:56:06 PM11/17/16
to
John McAdams wrote:
> On 13 Nov 2016 22:09:32 -0500, mainframetech <mainfr...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Tell us which of these 4 men who "refused" to identify CE399 said it
>>> WASN'T the bullet they handled. Please use their words, not your spin on
>>> what they said.
>>
>>
>>
>> The story was verified to me through John McAdams. Please see him.
>> Not that you need his exact words, even if someone recorded them. It was
>> clear enough, and oddly was the same situation as with the Walker bullet.
>> Where the person that handled it originally knew that what was shown later
>> was NOT the original bullet.
>>
>>
>
> Nonsense!
>
> Nobody said it wasn't the bullet they handled. The all said they
> could not confirm that it was the precise bullet they handled, but
> nobody in 1963/64 said it could not have been the bullet they handled.

SA Johnsen told Clint Hill that he initialed the Tomlinson
bullet, which he was required to do.

There is only ONE WAY he would have refused to confirm CE399.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/initials.png


Robert Harris

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 10:56:32 PM11/17/16
to
What a pile of crap!!

WE KNOW THE FBI LIED ABOUT THAT. Odum himself, denied ever
showing CE399 to anybody.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/odum.jpg

You seem to have a terrible aversion to facts and evidence,
John.




Robert Harris



Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 10:56:51 PM11/17/16
to
Stop snipping and running, David.

Talk about Wade, Nolan, Bell and how they corroborated John
Connally.

Talk about the absence of the initials of agents Johnsen and
Todd on CE399.

Talk about how the FBI tried to silence Daryl Tomlinson after
they discovered that the bullet he found, didn't match large
fragments found in the limo.

Talk about why, within one week after receiving those
bullets. Hoover was telling LBJ that Connally came between a
sniper and LBJ.

CE399 was NOT the bullet that wounded Connally. It wasn't
even involved in the assassination. That was PROVEN by hard
evidence.



Robert Harris






David Von Pein wrote:
> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>
> And why do you suppose that on Saturday, 11/23, the FBI didn't hold a
> press conference, gleefully announcing that they had PROOF that Oswald
> fired the bullet that Tomlinson found?
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> You must be joking. The FBI would not want to reveal to the public and the
> potential jury pool any specific details concerning the physical evidence
> at that point in time on November 23, which was a time *before* Oswald was
> shot and his trial was pending.
>

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 17, 2016, 10:59:47 PM11/17/16
to
No, Mr. Straw Man. I've never heard that.
I guess you think you have to argue your way out of some untennable
position. But things are not really that dire that you need to dig out
of the bottom of your barrel of dirty tricks yet.
Why don't you just call him a liar or a Communist or something?
Use your favorite tricks first.

> but I don't recall any CTer ever making that claim in the past. ~shrug~
>

Maybe we can turn this back and you and point out that only YOU were the
first person to bring up the idea.
Please be more careful with your straw man arguments. Some day one of
them may turn out to be true.


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 18, 2016, 11:50:22 AM11/18/16
to
Just trying to help you streamline your insults.



bigdog

unread,
Nov 18, 2016, 5:37:42 PM11/18/16
to
You were asked to quote the men who handled CE399 and instead you cited
what someone else said one of them said. That is no better than you
paraphrasing the witnesses. Can you QUOTE any of the four men saying CE399
was not the bullet they handled? A rhetorical question because we all know
you can't do that because none of them ever said that.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 18, 2016, 5:48:49 PM11/18/16
to
Ronnie Fuller?

bigdog

unread,
Nov 18, 2016, 5:51:46 PM11/18/16
to
So you also can't quote any of the four men saying CE399 was not the
bullet they handled.

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 18, 2016, 6:47:06 PM11/18/16
to
Of course I did and there was nothing that supported your claim that,

"First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher"


> Only one stretcher is ever mentioned -- "THE
> stretcher" that "Tomlinson stated" he removed from the elevator.

Are you actually going to argue that the "B" stretcher never existed???

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other stretcher in that area at that time?

Mr. TOMLINSON. There was a stretcher about 2 feet from the wall already
there. (Indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.)

Do you really think the Secret Service's failure to mention that
stretcher trumps Tomlinson's sworn statement that it was already there
when he brought Connally's down?

And I'm still waiting for that citation which supports your claim.

"First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher"

He said no such thing, Jean. Neither did the Secret Service. When do you
intend to admit your error?

>
> ".... This area was secured by the Secret Service and only hospital
> personnel and officers were allowed inside. Mr. Tomlinson stated *the
> stretcher* was left unattended for about an hour, then he walked to *the
> stretcher* and moved it by shoving *the stretcher* against a wall. At
> that point he noticed the bullet come rolling out from under the pad on
> *the stretcher*...." [my emphasis]

Yes Jean, when people are transferred on a stretcher, they put a pad
under them:-)

You can do better than this.

>
>>
>>>
>>> Also interviewed were witnesses who saw Connally's stretcher upstairs.
>>> Nurse Jane Wester, who helped move Connally to the OR table, said she
>>> "rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered
>>> with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end
>>> of the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot identify,
>>> on the other end of the stretcher" and asked orderly Jimison to take it
>>> to the elevator. Jimison said he saw the nurse roll up the bloody sheets
>>> and put them on the stretcher.
>>
>> There is no doubt that Tomlinson brought Connally's stretcher down on
>> the elevator. But there was no bullet on it.
>
> Then how do you explain the stretcher with rolled-up sheets and
> medical instruments that OR witnesses said Connally was on? It was put
> on the elevator and sent downstairs, so what happened to that one, Robert?

Exactly what Tomlinson told us. He put Connally's stretcher next to the
one that was already there, by the rest room. Did you bother to look at
Tomlinson's drawing?

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg

Big hospitals like Parkland treat thousands of patients, and they
standardize their procedures. The odds are high that the stretchers from
two gunshot victims will have the same items on them, including the
bloody sheets.

>
>>
>> As you know all too well, the bullet from that "gurney", was recovered
>> on the second floor by a nurse, who showed it to DA Wade and gave it to
>> officer Nolan, who delivered it to the DPD that evening.
>>
>> Connally confirmed that fact himself, and nurse Audrey Bell put the lie
>> to the FBI's claim that she gave tiny wrist fragments to Nolan.
>>
>
> No.

Hmm.. that's a pretty lame reply, Jean:-)

Have you listened to Bell's recorded interview with the ARRB, or read
her testimony to the HSCA, 20 years earlier?

This is from her MD184, from the ARRB:

"When shown an FBI FD-302 dated November 23,1963 (Agency File Number
000919, Record# 180-l 0090-10270), she felt it was inaccurate in two
respects: it quotes her as turning over ???the metal fragment
(singular),??? whereas she is positive it was multiple fragments - it says
she turned over the fragment to a Texas State Trooper, whereas she recalls
turning it over to plainclothes Federal agents who were either FBI or
Secret Service."

And from her HSCA testimony, 20 years earlier,

G: All right, and after you placed them into the foreign body envelope
and sealed that envelope, what did you do with it?

B: I delivered them to the FBI, and he signed for them, this was a
deviation from our procedure, he signed, ah, there was a, took an
inter-office memorandum and wrote on there about my delivering those to
the FBI. I believe Mr. Sorrels, and signed it, this. . . . . . .

G: Now, you believe that it was Mr. Sorrels?

B: I believe so, I recall this name. I recall this name. (she met with
Sorrels after Oswald was brought in on Sunday)

G: You recall the name but you're not positive at this point that it
was Sorrels?

B: No, No [sic]. I'm not sure.

G: But it was someone from the FBI who showed you identification. . .

B: The FBI or Secret Service, that I gave it to. And I think it was
the FBI.


Bell was always consistent that she never gave her tiny fragments to
officer Nolan or anyone else in uniform. She gave them to plain clothed
agents, almost certainly, from the FBI.

That's why the memo that she sent to Price, signed by her and one of the
agents has disappeared. Even the ARRB couldn't locate it. Guess who was
the last agency to have it:-)

The FBI lied, Jean, not only about Bell saying she gave anything to
Nolan, but that she gave only a single fragment. They had to lie about
that too, because they had already acknowledged that Nolan's envelope
only contained ONE ITEM.


>
>>>
>>> There were no bloody rolled-up sheets on the other stretcher.
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> When you accidentally emailed me your post a few hours ago, you made
>> that same assertion and I asked you for a citation and source.
>>
>> I'm still waiting.
>
> I asked you to reply to me here, now you have.

Reply to what?

You still haven't provided a citation which even comes close to
supporting that blurtation.

"First page here says he found the bullet on the elevator stretcher"

The first page says nothing of the kind, Jean. Nor does any other.

>
> Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher.
> Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will,
> please.
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white
> covering on the pad.
> Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.
> Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that?
> Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but
> I don't believe there was.

I have no idea what your point is.

Are you suggesting that the stretcher on the elevator that he was
describing, was not Connally's??


>
>>
>>>
>>> Tomlinson repeatedly told Specter he wasn't sure which of the two
>>> stretchers came off the elevator.
>>>> Understandable, since he had no reason
>>> to pay attention to either one until he found the bullet. But he did
>>> remember what else was on that particular stretcher:
>>>
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
>>> out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
>>> Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".
>>> Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I
>>> didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east
>>> end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end
>>> and a sterile pack or so.
>>
>> This is a poor argument, Jean. Any stretcher with a bullet on it is
>> probably going to be accompanied by bloody sheets, for obvious reasons.
>>
>
> Huh? I don't understand what you're saying there. My argument is
> that memories change over time,

No, your argument was exactly the opposite of that. You said, "..he did
remember what else was on that particular stretcher"

You seemed to be very trusting of his memory before I pointed out that
all stretchers which bore gunshot victims probably had the same stuff on
them:-)

> which is a proven fact. By the time he
> testified Tomlinson mis-remembered which stretcher came off the
> elevator, but he could still describe the articles on it.

"by the time he testified"??

You seem to be implying that before he testified, he had it right, and
then just forgot what he used to believe:-)

But he NEVER said the stretcher on the elevator was the one the bullet
came from. That's why you cannot support your bogus assertion that the
Secret Service said he did.

And that's why the FBI won't let us see his FD-302:-)
Tomlinson ALSO told Specter that he wasn't sure and he explained
precisely WHY he wasn't sure. You continue to ignore that.

He wasn't sure because he didn't know if the stretchers had been
rearranged while he was gone, or whether somehow the bullet was knocked
off one stretcher onto the other. I'm sure you will agree that both
possibilities are improbable.

And you did not prove your ugly accusation that I cited them out of
context. Tomlinson told Specter that he told the SS and FBI, the same
things he told him, and Specter who was privy to those reports, NEVER
disputed that.

And finally, neither the FBI or the Secret Service ever CLAIMED that
Tomlinson told him that the bullet came from Connally's stretcher.

So, it is obvious that Tomlinson was truthful, that he did tell those
agencies the same things he told Specter, which is what I have been
saying all along.


>
>>
>> and..
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
>> Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask you about these stretchers?
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about
>> the same thing we've gone over here.
>
> Yes, the FBI asked him about the stretchers, same thing Specter
> asked him about.
>
>
>> Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If
>> Tomlinson had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A"
>> stretcher, he would have been shouting that to the rooftops and asking
>> Tomlinson why he changed his story.
>
> Your assumption.


Ahh.. so you think that if Tomlinson had contradicted what he told the
FBI and/or SS, Specter would not have mentioned that??

Good luck peddling that one:-)


>>
>> He couldn't do that because Tomlinson did not tell either the FBI or the
>> SS that. They never claimed he did.

No argument Jean?


>>
>> That's why the citation you've presented on behalf of your theory, does
>> not claim that he said the bullet was on the "A" stretcher. And unless
>> I've overlooked something, neither did anything else the Secret Service
>> said.
>
> Read it again.
>
> https://www.google.com/url?q=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fa%2Fpatspeer.com%2Fwww2%2Ftomlinson_darrell_c.pdf%3Fattredirects%3D0%26d%3D1&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFCebgYcQG916DGmFuZpT-C1mnIGQ

I read every word of it Jean. They NEVER claimed that Tomlinson said the
bullet came off the elevator stretcher - NEVER!

But if you think otherwise, post your citation - verbatim please.


>
>
>>
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> And the FACT that the bullet that wounded them was recovered by a
>>>> nurse....
>>>
>>> I hope you noticed that in the same Secret Service document an OR
>>> nurse named Standridge "stated she did not see or hear any bullet fall
>>> from the Governor's clothes at the time she was undressing him..."
>>
>> Of course she didn't. Connally was very specific that the bullet fell as
>> he was being transferred from his stretcher to an operating table on the
>> second floor. His clothing was removed on the first floor.
>>
>
> Sorry, I should've said "ER nurse," not "OR." Standridge
> testified that she helped remove his clothing in Emergency Room #2 on
> the first floor and:
>
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's clothing?
> Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual.
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
> Miss STANDRIDGE - No.
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
> Miss STANDRIDGE - I didn't.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/standridge.htm

Standridge was nowhere near Connally when he was being transferred to
the operating table and the bullet fell.

Did you read her testimony?

She started to help push him to the elevator but others took over, so
she stopped.

Mr. SPECTER - Are you sure that was Governor Connally?
Miss STANDRIDGE - No, that's what I said---I. Just saw his feet, which I
assumed it was--it was the same doctors.
Mr. SPECTER - About how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing
the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his feet?
Miss STANDRIDGE - Just a second, I mean, just a few seconds.
Mr. SPECTER - You went back and got his clothes?
Miss STANDRIDGE - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - What did you do with those clothes?
Miss STANDRIDGE - I asked the administrator who should I give them to,
and they told me to give them to Governor Connally's party and they were
in the minor medicine section and I went out there and there were two
gentlemen out there and I asked them who I wanted to see---I wanted to
see somebody in Governor Connally's party, and they opened the door and
they asked for somebody, and he said he was---he identified himself as
Cliff Carter.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you give him the clothing?
Miss STANDRIDGE - Yes.

Any argument?


>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Robert, I've snipped because I'm not going over all this old ground
>>> again.
>>
>> I don't think so, Jean. I think you snipped because you have no
>> plausible rebuttal to this evidence.
>>
>> It is critical to understand that Tomlinson couldn't have found a bullet
>> on Connally's stretcher, since it was already recovered by that nurse.
>> It is predictable that he would deny that he did.
>
> He denied he found a bullet???

I know your reading comprhension is better than that, Jean:-)

"ON CONNALLY'S STRETCHER". It is predictable that he would deny having
found a bullet on Connally's stretcher, with emphasis on "Connally's".


>
> >
>> And why did you snip the part when I pointed out that you misrepresented
>> Spector, claiming he was surprised that Tomlinson selected the "B"
>> stretcher?
>>
>> He already knew that, based on their previous conversation(s). This is
>> what you snipped:
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you
>> have testified about, did we not?
>>
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your
>> recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was
>> it not?
>>
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. B.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you
>> took off of the elevator.
>>
>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.
>>
>>
>> Why would you choose to delete that citation rather than simply admit
>> that you were wrong?
>
> In my view Specter read the FBI and SS reports and probably
> wasn't expecting Tomlinson to tell a different story, whether during
> their initial discussion or in his testimony.

Strange that you constantly have these guys believing things they never
mentioned.

Have you noticed Jean, that I talk only about things that they really said?

Spector could not have been surprised, because he said (he really did)
that Tomlinson had already told him, prior to testifying, that the
bullet was on the "B" stretcher and not Connally's.

Why can't you ever just admit that you were wrong?

>
>>
>>> I only wanted to know what you were referring to when you wrote,
>>> "[Tomlinson] originally told both the Secret Service and the FBI it came
>>> off a different stretcher." BTW, if that were true, why would Specter
>>> even bring up these earlier interviews? That doesn't fit your theory
>>> that he was trying to hide the truth.
>>
>> When did I claim he was "trying to hide the truth"?

Jean?

>>
>> Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If
>> Tomlinson had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A"
>> stretcher, he would have been shouting that to the rooftops, just as the
>> FBI would have made the Tomlinson FD-302 public, if he had chosen the PC
>> stretcher:-)
>
> This is reasoning based on suspicion, which isn't a reliable
> source. You are *assuming* this is what they "would have" done.

Yes I am, because we both know that is exactly what he would have done.

Listen to yourself, Jean. You have no citations to support your
argument, so you have to fabricate beliefs that were never stated.

Specter had already acknowledged that Tomlinson had previously told him
the bullet came off the "B" stretcher.

And neither he, nor the FBI, nor the Secret Service, EVER cited him
claiming otherwise.

Or perhaps you would like to bring up SA Odum's report:-)

>
>>
>>> It fits my theory that Specter was
>>> trying to jog Tomlinson's memory.
>>
>> I do not try to read the minds of the dead, Jean.
>
> Of course you do. You just did!

No, I didn't Jean. Specter TOLD us what Tomlinson had previously said to
him:

Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you
have testified about, did we not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your
recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was
it not?

Mr. TOMLINSON. B.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you
took off of the elevator.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.

You see Jean, I rely on what these guys actually said, not what I wish
they had said:-)



>
> [snip]
>> Let's take another look at that diagram, shall we?
>>
>> http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg
>>
>> ONLY THE B STRETCHER WAS BLOCKING THE RESTROOM.
>>
>> ONLY THE B STRETCHER.
>>
>> That was the stretcher which held the bullet that Tomlinson found.
>> That's why he said that the only way he could be wrong was if someone
>> rearranged them, but why would anyone do that?
>
> Please cut and paste Tomlinson saying the only way he could be
> wrong was if someone rearranged them:

Cut the crap, Jean.

You need to address the fact that ONLY the "B" stretcher had been in
front of the rest room. That is the stretcher that was moved out of the
way by a doctor, causing Tomlinson to push it back against the wall,
when the bullet fell.





Robert Harris



Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 18, 2016, 6:47:43 PM11/18/16
to
Robert Harris wrote:
> Stop snipping and running, David.
>
> Talk about Wade, Nolan, Bell and how they corroborated John Connally.
>
> Talk about the absence of the initials of agents Johnsen and Todd on CE399.
>
> Talk about how the FBI tried to silence Daryl Tomlinson after they
> discovered that the bullet he found, didn't match large fragments found
> in the limo.
>
> Talk about why, within one week after receiving those bullets. Hoover
> was telling LBJ that Connally came between a sniper and LBJ.

JFK that is.. duh.





RH

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 18, 2016, 10:41:10 PM11/18/16
to
Don't be accusing anyone of 'spinning' until you see it happen. The
person that recognized that the bullet that was shown for identification
was the wrong shape was O.P. Wright. His exact words were not recorded,
but an interview wit him was noted and written down:

"The mystery deepened two years later when a one-time Yale and Haverford
philosophy professor, Josiah Thompson (then working for Time/Life),
interviewed O.P. Wright. As Thompson described it in his classic book, Six
Seconds in Dallas, "I then showed him photographs of CE 399 ... and he
rejected all of these as resembling the bullet Tomlinson found on the
stretcher. Half an hour later in the presence of two witnesses, he once
again rejected the picture of # 399 as resembling the bullet found on the
stretcher. ... As a professional law enforcement officer, Wright has an
educated eye for bullet shapes." [38] [editor's note: Wright further
stated that the bullet had a pointed tip and produced from his desk such a
bullet for emphasis]."

From: http://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Review_of_Reclaiming_History.html


> Consider SA Johnsen. He told Clint Hill that he initialed the
> Parkland bullet, which of course, he was required to do.
>
> If he saw his initial on CE399, he would have confirmed it,
> don't you think?
>
> So, why do you suppose he refused to do that, John?
>


An important addition to the story of CE399 is an interview held with
Bardwell Odum, who was the FBI agent that supposedly showed the CE399
bullet to Tomlinson and Wright at a later date. The FBI report said that
both had told Odum that, although #399 "appears to be the same one" that
had been on the stretcher, neither could "positively identify" it, meaning
that they had not carved their initials on the bullet found on the
stretcher as positive proof.

However, here's an interview in 1967 with Bardwell Odum reported by
Gary Aguilar:

"With Josiah Thompson’s help, I tracked Odum down in 2002 and sent
him the original July 7th FBI report and the June 20, 1964 FBI Airtel from
Dallas. In a recorded call we had the following exchange:


GA: “[F]rom what I could gather from the records after the
assassination, you went into Parkland and showed (#399 to) a couple of
employees there.”

BO: “Oh, I never went into Parkland Hospital at all. I
don’t know where you got that. ... I didn’t show it to
anybody at Parkland. I didn’t have any bullet. I don’t
know where you got that but it is wrong.”

GA: “Oh, so you never took a bullet. You were never given a bullet
... .”

BO: “You are talking about the bullet they found at
Parkland?”

GA: “Right.”

BO: “I don’t think I ever saw it even.”

From: http://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Review_of_Reclaiming_History.html


So the FBI was dong their thing here too. Faking evidence to support
the 'lone nut' scenario. It's not the first time they were shown to be
affecting evidence.

Chris

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 18, 2016, 11:07:47 PM11/18/16
to
On 11/17/2016 10:56 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> Stop snipping and running, David.
>
> Talk about Wade, Nolan, Bell and how they corroborated John Connally.
>

No, they don't.

> Talk about the absence of the initials of agents Johnsen and Todd on CE399.
>

Talk to John Hunt.

> Talk about how the FBI tried to silence Daryl Tomlinson after they
> discovered that the bullet he found, didn't match large fragments found
> in the limo.
>

What do you think you mean by that? Explain.

> Talk about why, within one week after receiving those bullets. Hoover
> was telling LBJ that Connally came between a sniper and LBJ.
>

We've already pointed out hundreds of times that Hoover didn't know what
he was talking about.

> CE399 was NOT the bullet that wounded Connally. It wasn't even involved
> in the assassination. That was PROVEN by hard evidence.
>
>

Maybe, but YOU haven't proven anything.

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 19, 2016, 11:32:14 AM11/19/16
to
I repeat...YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE FOR OTHERS WHAT IS VALID EVIDENCE
AND WHAT IS NOT. During the detecting phase of an investigation, almost
anything including rumors are valid evidence, as long as it leads to the
killer(s).

You know damn well that many times a witness is asked by someone about
an incident and the interviewer tells of the interview and not the
witness. You've been given the story and don't pull that crap that the
exact quote is missing, it's just one of your many gimmicks to try and
cover up evidence.

Chris



bigdog

unread,
Nov 19, 2016, 9:23:16 PM11/19/16
to
And still you haven't quote Tomlinson saying CE399 was not the bullet he
saw. You cited an article by Gary Aguilar which also doesn't quote
Tomlinson. He cited a book by Josiah Thompson. This is one of those
somebody said that somebody said that somebody said... deals. Why is it
you guys can never provide a direct quote from the people whom you claim
support your theory?
Still no quotes from any of the men who handled the bullet at Parkland
stating that CE399 was NOT the bullet they handled. Thanks for playing.

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 19, 2016, 9:26:25 PM11/19/16
to
Stop your childish games. Often we get testimony or statements that
were heard and not recorded. YOU'RE NOT IN COURT! Any information,
including rumors are valid detection tools. When a case goes to court is
the time to be sure of your quotes and etc.

Chris

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 19, 2016, 9:27:30 PM11/19/16
to
Answer the question.

Johnsen told Clint Hill that he initialed the Parkland
bullet, which he was required to do.

If he saw his initial on CE399, he would have confirmed it,
don't you think?

So, why do you suppose he refused to do that, John?

It is not relevant that I cannot cite what Johnsen told the
FBI, because they buried his FD-302 as they did many others.

Now, you answer my question.




Robert Harris



Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 19, 2016, 9:40:37 PM11/19/16
to
How did the FBI know at 7:30 that it was a lone nut? Hoover assumed it
was a conspiracy.


Jean Davison

unread,
Nov 20, 2016, 5:46:50 PM11/20/16
to
That's what it says and I've quoted it. Sorry if you don't see that.

>
>> Only one stretcher is ever mentioned -- "THE
>> stretcher" that "Tomlinson stated" he removed from the elevator.
>
> Are you actually going to argue that the "B" stretcher never existed???

No. You don't get it. There was no reason to mention the other
stretcher if he found the bullet on the one he took off the elevator.

This is the important point: Tomlinson told Specter that the
stretcher with the bullet had rolled-up sheets at one end and medical
tools at the other, like the one nurse Wester sent downstairs:

"Miss Wester then rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was
lying which was covered with blood, along with several pieces of paper
and placed it on one end of the stretcher. She then placed some tools,
which she cannot identify, on the other end of the stretcher" and asked
orderly Jimison to take it to the elevator."

Here's Tomlinson's 3/1964 description again:

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, happened then?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat.
Mr. SPECTER. And that was from which stretcher?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that it was "B".
Mr. SPECTER. And what was on "B", if you recall; if anything?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; I
didn't examine them. They were bloody. They were rolled up on the east
end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on, the opposite end
and a sterile pack or so.

What an amazing coincidence -- a stretcher that sounds just like
Connally's.

The stretcher he *thought* he'd taken off the elevator didn't have
the same items on it:

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the elevator at that time?
Mr. TOMLINSON. There was one stretcher.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will,
please.
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white
covering on the pad.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there anything else on that?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I don't believe there was on that one, I'm not sure, but
I don't believe there was.

The simplest and best explanation is that he got the two mixed up
when he testified. Otherwise how do you explain that the items he told
Specter were on opposite ends of the bullet stretcher were the same
items Wester had said were on Connally's when the SS interviewed her
four months earlier?

If you're about to say there was a third stretcher from another
victim, please read on....


>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also interviewed were witnesses who saw Connally's stretcher upstairs.
>>>> Nurse Jane Wester, who helped move Connally to the OR table, said she
>>>> "rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was lying which was covered
>>>> with blood, along with several pieces of paper and placed it on one end
>>>> of the stretcher. She then placed some tools, which she cannot
>>>> identify,
>>>> on the other end of the stretcher" and asked orderly Jimison to take it
>>>> to the elevator. Jimison said he saw the nurse roll up the bloody
>>>> sheets
>>>> and put them on the stretcher.
>>>
>>> There is no doubt that Tomlinson brought Connally's stretcher down on
>>> the elevator. But there was no bullet on it.
>>
>> Then how do you explain the stretcher with rolled-up sheets and
>> medical instruments that OR witnesses said Connally was on? It was put
>> on the elevator and sent downstairs, so what happened to that one,
>> Robert?
>
> Exactly what Tomlinson told us. He put Connally's stretcher next to the
> one that was already there, by the rest room. Did you bother to look at
> Tomlinson's drawing?
>
> http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg
>
> Big hospitals like Parkland treat thousands of patients, and they
> standardize their procedures. The odds are high that the stretchers from
> two gunshot victims will have the same items on them, including the
> bloody sheets.

There were only two stretchers in that small room, according to
Tomlinson's drawing. Only two in every account he gave, including some
on YouTube.

Plus, Jimison testified that no other stretcher was placed on the
elevator later than day (he got off at 3:30).

Also, Connally and JFK were the only two GSW (gunshot wound)
patients admitted to the ER that afternoon:

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1138#relPageId=180&tab=page
Sorry, I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. You're relying
on the weakest possible evidence: hearsay and years-old memory, plus
suspicion, which isn't evidence at all.

>>
>>>>
>>>> There were no bloody rolled-up sheets on the other stretcher.
>>>
>>> Really?
>>>
>>> When you accidentally emailed me your post a few hours ago, you made
>>> that same assertion and I asked you for a citation and source.
>>>
>>> I'm still waiting.
>>
>> I asked you to reply to me here, now you have.
>
> Reply to what?
>
> You still haven't provided a citation which even comes close to
> supporting that blurtation.

I've quoted Tomlinson's description already above. There were no
bloody sheets in his description.


>
> Tomlinson ALSO told Specter that he wasn't sure and he explained
> precisely WHY he wasn't sure. You continue to ignore that.
>
> He wasn't sure because he didn't know if the stretchers had been
> rearranged while he was gone, or whether somehow the bullet was knocked
> off one stretcher onto the other. I'm sure you will agree that both
> possibilities are improbable.
>
> And you did not prove your ugly accusation that I cited them out of
> context. Tomlinson told Specter that he told the SS and FBI, the same
> things he told him, and Specter who was privy to those reports, NEVER
> disputed that.
>
> And finally, neither the FBI or the Secret Service ever CLAIMED that
> Tomlinson told him that the bullet came from Connally's stretcher.

The SS document clearly says that, and you've never seen what the
FBI claimed (that document may exist somewhere too, like the SS one that
went missing until Pat Speer found it).

[snip]

> Standridge was nowhere near Connally when he was being transferred to
> the operating table and the bullet fell.

Standridge wasn't in the OR area but many other people were.

In April 1964 Dr. Gregory testified, "I first saw Governor Connally
after Dr. Shaw had prepared him and draped him for the surgical
procedures which he carried out on the Governor's chest...."

"....I would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding
a missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds,
and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them,
and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other
areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather."


http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34&relPageId=126&search="draped_him"
gregory shaw

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34&relPageId=133&search=disconcerted


>>
>> >
>>> And why did you snip the part when I pointed out that you misrepresented
>>> Spector, claiming he was surprised that Tomlinson selected the "B"
>>> stretcher?
>>>
>>> He already knew that, based on their previous conversation(s). This is
>>> what you snipped:
>>>
>>> Mr. SPECTER. And we discussed in a general way the information which you
>>> have testified about, did we not?
>>>
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir.
>>>
>>> Mr. SPECTER. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your
>>> recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was
>>> it not?
>>>
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. B.
>>>
>>> Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you
>>> took off of the elevator.
>>>
>>> Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe that's right.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why would you choose to delete that citation rather than simply admit
>>> that you were wrong?
>>
>> In my view Specter read the FBI and SS reports and probably
>> wasn't expecting Tomlinson to tell a different story, whether during
>> their initial discussion or in his testimony.
>
> Strange that you constantly have these guys believing things they never
> mentioned.
>
> Have you noticed Jean, that I talk only about things that they really said?

That's funny.

>
> Spector could not have been surprised, because he said (he really did)
> that Tomlinson had already told him, prior to testifying, that the
> bullet was on the "B" stretcher and not Connally's.
>
> Why can't you ever just admit that you were wrong?

I was wrong when I said Standridge was in the OR. I acknowledged that.

My statement about Specter was stated as an opinion, not a fact. I
said "in my view" he "apparently" had the documents and "was surprised."
The acknowledgement that I could be wrong is right there already, in
what I said.

>>
>>>
>>>> I only wanted to know what you were referring to when you wrote,
>>>> "[Tomlinson] originally told both the Secret Service and the FBI it
>>>> came
>>>> off a different stretcher." BTW, if that were true, why would Specter
>>>> even bring up these earlier interviews? That doesn't fit your theory
>>>> that he was trying to hide the truth.
>>>
>>> When did I claim he was "trying to hide the truth"?
>
> Jean?
>

In your 11/10 statement in this thread you said:

> He originally told both the Secret
> Service and the FBI that it came off a different stretcher.
>
> After being worked over by Spector, he then said he wasn't certain.

So after Specter worked him over, he changed his testimony,
according to you. Sounds like "trying to hide the truth" to me.


>>>
>>> Spector had the entirety of those interviews at his disposal. If
>>> Tomlinson had told either agency that he found the bullet on the "A"
>>> stretcher, he would have been shouting that to the rooftops, just as the
>>> FBI would have made the Tomlinson FD-302 public, if he had chosen the PC
>>> stretcher:-)
>>
>> This is reasoning based on suspicion, which isn't a reliable
>> source. You are *assuming* this is what they "would have" done.
>
> Yes I am, because we both know that is exactly what he would have done.

False, and based on suspicion, which tells you whatever you want
to hear.

>> [snip]


>>> Let's take another look at that diagram, shall we?
>>>
>>> http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/stretcherdiagram.jpg
>>>
>>> ONLY THE B STRETCHER WAS BLOCKING THE RESTROOM.
>>>
>>> ONLY THE B STRETCHER.
>>>
>>> That was the stretcher which held the bullet that Tomlinson found.
>>> That's why he said that the only way he could be wrong was if someone
>>> rearranged them, but why would anyone do that?
>>
>> Please cut and paste Tomlinson saying the only way he could be
>> wrong was if someone rearranged them:
>
> Cut the crap, Jean.

If he really said that you should be able to quote it, but you
can't, because he didn't.

Jean


bigdog

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 12:37:44 AM11/21/16
to
We moved past "the detecting phase" 53 years ago minus two days. The DPD
got to the solving phase about 12 hours after the shots were fired.

> You know damn well that many times a witness is asked by someone about
> an incident and the interviewer tells of the interview and not the
> witness. You've been given the story and don't pull that crap that the
> exact quote is missing, it's just one of your many gimmicks to try and
> cover up evidence.

So the short answer is there is no record of any of these four men saying
in their own words that CE399 was not the bullet they saw at Parkland.
Thank you for clearing that up.

bigdog

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 12:38:23 AM11/21/16
to
I know we're not in court. You can rely on anything you want to make your
arguments, even a Ouija board or a Magic-8 Ball. However if you want to
make a compelling argument that any of these four men said that CE399 was
not the bullet they saw at Parkland, you really need to find a quote of
one of them saying it, not citing some conspiracy author's spin on what
they said.

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 12:45:48 AM11/21/16
to
The missing initials suggest a replaced bullet, done by the bullet
custodian, who had a wealth of test bullets from the MC rifle available to
him from the tests of the MC rifle done the very next day after the
murder.


>
>
> Robert Harris


mainframetech

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 12:46:26 AM11/21/16
to
WRONG! Looks like you really failed on that one! It was explained to
you, and which most people are aware of, that in cases like this the
person speaking is often not recorded, but the interviewer is. We
automatically take the interviewer's word if there is no reason not to.
You are so bad off and desperate that you are grasping at straws in trying
to prove that the WCR was right, when it failed from the sheer weight of
the errors in it.

Stop the fantasy pretending that you and the wasted WCR are right about
anything.

Chris

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 2:06:26 PM11/21/16
to
Mea Culpa. I guess it's my fault.
I've only quoted Six Seconds in Dallas a few hundred times here, not a
hundred times every day. Call me lazy.
So that's why you never saw it.

>>
>>> Consider SA Johnsen. He told Clint Hill that he initialed the
>>> Parkland bullet, which of course, he was required to do.
>>>
>>> If he saw his initial on CE399, he would have confirmed it,
>>> don't you think?
>>>
>>> So, why do you suppose he refused to do that, John?
>>>
>>
>>
>> An important addition to the story of CE399 is an interview held with
>> Bardwell Odum, who was the FBI agent that supposedly showed the CE399
>> bullet to Tomlinson and Wright at a later date. The FBI report said that
>> both had told Odum that, although #399 "appears to be the same one" that
>> had been on the stretcher, neither could "positively identify" it, meaning
>> that they had not carved their initials on the bullet found on the
>> stretcher as positive proof.
>>
>> However, here's an interview in 1967 with Bardwell Odum reported by
>> Gary Aguilar:
>>
>> "With Josiah Thompson???s help, I tracked Odum down in 2002 and sent
>> him the original July 7th FBI report and the June 20, 1964 FBI Airtel from
>> Dallas. In a recorded call we had the following exchange:
>>
>>
>> GA: ???[F]rom what I could gather from the records after the
>> assassination, you went into Parkland and showed (#399 to) a couple of
>> employees there.???
>>
>> BO: ???Oh, I never went into Parkland Hospital at all. I
>> don???t know where you got that. ... I didn???t show it to
>> anybody at Parkland. I didn???t have any bullet. I don???t
>> know where you got that but it is wrong.???
>>
>> GA: ???Oh, so you never took a bullet. You were never given a bullet
>> ... .???
>>
>> BO: ???You are talking about the bullet they found at
>> Parkland????
>>
>> GA: ???Right.???
>>
>> BO: ???I don???t think I ever saw it even.???
>>
>> From: http://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Review_of_Reclaiming_History.html
>>
>>
>> So the FBI was dong their thing here too. Faking evidence to support
>> the 'lone nut' scenario. It's not the first time they were shown to be
>> affecting evidence.
>>
>
> Still no quotes from any of the men who handled the bullet at Parkland
> stating that CE399 was NOT the bullet they handled. Thanks for playing.
>


They've been provided thousands of times, but you refused to read them.


bigdog

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 6:24:19 PM11/21/16
to
Jean, you continue to be an invaluable source of important information on
this case, just as you were back on the old Prodigy board.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 6:26:57 PM11/21/16
to
He couldn't PROVE which stretcher it came from, but it fell to the floor.

> This is the important point: Tomlinson told Specter that the
> stretcher with the bullet had rolled-up sheets at one end and medical
> tools at the other, like the one nurse Wester sent downstairs:
>

Yes. LIKE.
Like the stretcher they used for Ronnie Fuller.

> "Miss Wester then rolled up the sheet on which the Governor was
> lying which was covered with blood, along with several pieces of paper
> and placed it on one end of the stretcher. She then placed some tools,
> which she cannot identify, on the other end of the stretcher" and asked
> orderly Jimison to take it to the elevator."
>


Like that was the very first and only time that a nurse ever did that?
What was the stethoscope for?
I think most people missed that the first 4,000 times I posted it.
Can you please post it 100 times every day? Some of these guys don't
have access to the WC volumes.

> The simplest and best explanation is that he got the two mixed up
> when he testified. Otherwise how do you explain that the items he told

So, what's wrong with that? Is that a crime?

> Specter were on opposite ends of the bullet stretcher were the same
> items Wester had said were on Connally's when the SS interviewed her
> four months earlier?
>

Common practice.

> If you're about to say there was a third stretcher from another
> victim, please read on....
>

What about poor little Ronnie Fuller? Maybe he was hit by your missed shot.
That they knew about.
So you claim.

>
>>
>> Tomlinson ALSO told Specter that he wasn't sure and he explained
>> precisely WHY he wasn't sure. You continue to ignore that.
>>
>> He wasn't sure because he didn't know if the stretchers had been
>> rearranged while he was gone, or whether somehow the bullet was knocked
>> off one stretcher onto the other. I'm sure you will agree that both
>> possibilities are improbable.
>>
>> And you did not prove your ugly accusation that I cited them out of
>> context. Tomlinson told Specter that he told the SS and FBI, the same
>> things he told him, and Specter who was privy to those reports, NEVER
>> disputed that.
>>
>> And finally, neither the FBI or the Secret Service ever CLAIMED that
>> Tomlinson told him that the bullet came from Connally's stretcher.
>
> The SS document clearly says that, and you've never seen what the
> FBI claimed (that document may exist somewhere too, like the SS one that
> went missing until Pat Speer found it).
>

OMG. You mean it took a conspiracy researcher to find it? How come YOU
couldn't find it? Is this anything like Judyth's letter to JFK?

> [snip]
>
>> Standridge was nowhere near Connally when he was being transferred to
>> the operating table and the bullet fell.
>
> Standridge wasn't in the OR area but many other people were.
>
> In April 1964 Dr. Gregory testified, "I first saw Governor Connally
> after Dr. Shaw had prepared him and draped him for the surgical
> procedures which he carried out on the Governor's chest...."
>
> "....I would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding
> a missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds,
> and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them,
> and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other
> areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather."
>
>

False. Shaw said the bullet was still in Connally's thigh.
How come you never show or quote the TV interviews?
What does Loftus tell us?

David Von Pein

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 6:38:54 PM11/21/16
to
To Jean Davison:

Thank you (once again), Jean, for providing hard, documented facts (and a
whole lot of common sense, to boot) concerning topics associated with the
JFK assassination. Your posts never fail to inform and enlighten.

Discussion archived at my site here (I've indexed it as "Part 4" of my
Darrell Tomlinson series):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/11/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1207.html

FYI....

I've also downloaded the 12/5/63 Secret Service report that Pat Speer
found a few years back, and I then re-uploaded and saved it in an
Internet/URL form for easier access, here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2oJmFGgfM3zV2FsWUwxMXl6MzA/view

The above SS document can also be found in a webpage/URL form at the NARA
site, here:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461223

bigdog

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 8:34:34 PM11/21/16
to
Gullible people do that. Sensible people ask what the interviewer's
motivations are. In addition, when the interviewer paraphrases what the
interviewee said, he is putting his spin on what was said. That's why it
is important to hear what the person in question actually said IN THEIR
OWN WORDS.

Still not a single quote from any of the four men in question stating that
CE399 was not the bullet they saw at Parkland.


> You are so bad off and desperate that you are grasping at straws in trying
> to prove that the WCR was right, when it failed from the sheer weight of
> the errors in it.
>
> Stop the fantasy pretending that you and the wasted WCR are right about
> anything.
>

I'm not pretending. You have never quoted any of the four men denying that
CE399 was the bullet they originally saw. You can't produce any such
quotes. You would if you could but you can't so you shan't.

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 8:35:35 PM11/21/16
to
My job here is NOT to make compelling arguments for YOU. You're a lost
cause with your deep love for the tired old erroneous WCR. I put out
things I find and have come to believe from evidence.

Chris

mainframetech

unread,
Nov 21, 2016, 8:36:07 PM11/21/16
to
WRONG! You actually think the world revolves around YOU! You accepted
the WCR when it was inserted into your brain. I'M still in detecting
mode, because I believe there are still a few things to be detected and
proved.




> > You know damn well that many times a witness is asked by someone about
> > an incident and the interviewer tells of the interview and not the
> > witness. You've been given the story and don't pull that crap that the
> > exact quote is missing, it's just one of your many gimmicks to try and
> > cover up evidence.
>
> So the short answer is there is no record of any of these four men saying
> in their own words that CE399 was not the bullet they saw at Parkland.
> Thank you for clearing that up.



Don't pretend you didn't already know that. You wouldn't have asked
unless you could pretend that not getting some exact quote meant
something. Which it does NOT.

Chris

Robert Harris

unread,
Nov 22, 2016, 2:06:30 PM11/22/16
to
Initially, they said Tomlinson.. ???..was interviewed relative
to his finding a bullet on a stretcher at Parkland..???.

And then "a stretcher" morphed into "the stretcher". It seems
obvious, that they assumed he meant the Connally stretcher
and never asked whether it could have been another one.

Your latest theory suggests that Tomlinson just made up a
second stretcher that was in front of the rest room. If that
is so, he was not just a bad witness; he was in need of
psychiatric help.

What it all boils down to is his sworn testimony, fully
consistent with his refusal to verify CE399, versus a second
hand report in which Secret Service agents assumed that the
stretcher he found the bullet on, was Connally's.

I'll go with the first hand, sworn testimony. If this guy
suffered a delusion like that, then we shouldn't care about
anything he said, and go with other witnesses, like the
Dallas district attorney, the Governor of Texas, a police
officer, etc :-)

>
>>
>>> Only one stretcher is ever mentioned -- "THE
>>> stretcher" that "Tomlinson stated" he removed from the
>>> elevator.
>>
>> Are you actually going to argue that the "B" stretcher
>> never existed???
>
> No. You don't get it. There was no reason to mention
> the other stretcher if he found the bullet on the one he took
> off the elevator.

Unfortunately for you, he swore under oath, that he didn't.

And you still have not addressed the FACT that the Connally
bullet was recovered on the second floor and passed on to
officer Nolan.

Therefore, there was no bullet on Connally's stretcher for
Tomlinson to find.

And Connally was hit at 223. But no one heard that shot, not
"most" of the DP witnesses and not the surviving limo
passengers, including Connally himself, who was very specific
that he heard a shot that preceded the one that hit him. But
he never heard that second one, just like the other witnesses.

And NONE of the early shots provoked visible startle
reactions like we see following 285 and 313. How could that
be, since if Oswald fired them all, the earliest would have
been the loudest to the ears of the limo passengers?

Oswald's rifle generated sounds of 130 decibels at street
level - 16 times greater than the level at which involuntary
startle reactions will be heard. It is impossible that
Connally was hit then by a shot from an unsuppressed, high
powered rifle.

Jean, you do the same thing that many of your buddies do. You
try to isolate issues, ignoring indisputable corroborations.

We can argue all day about Tomlinson. But if all we discuss
is what he said, we will never achieve certainty.

To be certain, we must include the corroborations. In this
case, they settle the issue beyond any conceivable doubt.

And you confirm that Jean, every time you refuse to discuss them.


>
> This is the important point: Tomlinson told Specter
> that the stretcher with the bullet had rolled-up sheets at
> one end and medical tools at the other, like the one nurse
> Wester sent downstairs:

They all have that on them Jean. We already covered this issue.

Let's cut to the chase and talk about what matters. For you
to be correct, you will need to prove that Connally's bullet
*could* have been on that stretcher.

And that Oswald *could* have fired the shot that wounded
Connally.

I've had my share of "debates" over the last couple of
decades. Let's go for solutions. Let's talk about the most
important evidence.




Robert Harris

bigdog

unread,
Nov 22, 2016, 9:02:09 PM11/22/16
to
Nobody cares what you've come to believe.

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