New Purchase

[Ohio Race Day]

Hey all.  My mat antennas arrived today.  I'll try to test them this week before our race on Saturday.  They took just six days from when my email was answered by the seller in Australia until delivery on my front porch.  Cost was ~ $1,600 (US) including shipping for two mats and hardware and cables.  See prior posts for info on these.  Just sharing.  :)

[Brian Agee]

Is each section about 3 feet long? If so, was it $1,600 for a total of 6 feet?

I'm sure you're going to test it every way possible, but here is a few things I'm interested to see:

When you test it, please let us know how it works when that's the only antenna on the finish line and when bib tags are used vs other types of tags. Hopefully you can get some friends, family, and neighborhood kids to try and flood the finish line and you can test different antennas and tag placements. Thanks as always for sharing with others. Looking forward to the review! :)

[Run Roanoke]

Speaking of purchases, what is the price for a FX9500 and what is the antenna range on them?  Might be interested in an offseason purchase, thinking it over.

[Ohio Race Day]

$1560 (US) or $1870 (AUD) for everything pictured and including shipping.  2 mats (1200 mm or 47.2" each) and hardware to attach them together and four cables.  I truthfully opened the box on my lunch break, took the picture and returned to work.  I'll need to check it all out later.  I didn't plan on testing bib tags because I bought the mat antennas for a more definitive finish line using the shoe tags.  I don't even have any wet inlays to use for bib tags.   I especially wanted them for those people that put the shoe tags on incorrectly (ie tucked into laces).  Here are the specs ...

http://store.rfdesign.com.au/rfid-mat-antenna-fcc-915mhz-vert-pol/

Here's the sell sheet ..

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4iwKZf81RxxbTNZSUhkZ2gtNS1FdGdFSFFQQ245dGZlMWtJ/view?usp=sharing

I'll try to give a better review later.  If they work fine in a quick test both alone and with companion side panel antennas then I'll use them at our 5K 10K this weekend.  I also have a chance to use them for a 10K in a couple of weeks for some friends freebie run after Christmas at no charge.  I already told them of my plans.

[Brian Agee]

Hmm, it says it's "Linear", which means that the tags orientation will effect performance. I think most mat antennas are Linear.

I'll mail you a couple hundred inlays, and probably some bibs, if you're willing to test them out for us. I'd like for you to try a single tag vertically, a single tag horizontally, and then try two tags per bib (both vertical, both horizontal, one of each, etc.) and let us know what happens.

[Brian Agee]

I can have Jamie send you a quote so that you can see our prices. These are brand new straight from Motorola with warranties of course. You can search the word "Ebay" in the thread and see a few of the problems that people have reported when buying online. If you'll email AgeeRac...@Gmail.com and ask for a quote she can get it to you promptly.

[Ohio Race Day]

@ Brian,
Yes.  I believe the seller said bib RFID tags should be oriented vertically.

I'd like to test them all sorts of ways.  I'm also curious about how they work with the Hu-Tags.  If anybody else out there has some different tags (dog bone, squiggle, foam backed) then feel free to send me some samples.  I wish the weather was better, it would be fun to play with the system outdoors with runner friends.

[Crystal McCullough]

Hi, Ohio, congratulations on your new purchase. I was surprised to hear you were buying these for shoe tags. I’m not one of the RFID experts here, but from what I have learned from all of you is that it would seem that if runners have tags tucked into their laces that they would be even harder to read with a mat, considering it would have to potentially read through the sole of their shoe, then their sock (possibly sweaty, which causes issues), then their foot, and then the shoe's tongue again before it got to the tag, unless it's the top of their foot that crosses the mat. Curious to hear more about your tests.

[rtspt.usa]

i can save you a bunch of time in that the US distributor, RM Timing's timing division SVE Timing solely uses these mats and vertical dogbones.

i supplied a video board for them at a half marathon a few weeks ago.

they timed over 9,000 participants with 2 rows of these mats and 2 vertical dogbones on the back of the bib without foam. no misses at all.

this included multiple wave starts as well.

as i have stated numerous times as well i use these same mats with the same success.

[Peak Performance Timing]

I am thinking they just might read tags that are tucked under the laces....The linear radiation is like a plane perpendicular to the roadway and will not have to read "through the shoe, foot, and sock, etc" it will surrounded the shoe/tag and activate it from the top side....the only things that might stop the tag from activating when tucked under the laces will be no space between tag and top of foot, but the shoe tongue should act like a foam spacer and it should read through laces, and possibly the disruption of the linear plane if a body part leads the foot....but I would guess the radio waves are emitted so quickly this shouldn't be a factor. I am anxious to hear the results!

[rtspt.usa]

yes.. i am thinking it will read as well..being that the foot and tag will be potentially much closer to the antenna..

also, if the foot is at its highest point during a stride it will actually be cocked back so that the tag might be directly exposed to the antenna better.

this part of the testing will be interesting for sure.

[Ohio Race Day]

@ rtspt,
Thanks for the heads up on these mat antennas.  I wouldn't have known about them had you not mentioned them and posted photos of your finish line set up.  RM Timing is the US reseller of these mat antennas and I contacted them first and they told me I could return them "if they don't pan out."  I ended up finding the manufacturer and figured I'd order them direct at a lower cost and take my chances that way.  Here they are:

http://www.rmtimingsystems.com/Shop/Detail/RM-Timing-Performance-Mat-Antenna

[Ohio Race Day]

I hooked them up today.  They worked in my dining room on three different RFID tag types in a four different positions.  I'll try to test them more thoroughly outside and give a better review.  But I don't have much time before my race on Saturday to really mess with them.  The laminated tags safety pinned to my chest (to sort of simulate a bib tag) also worked but were picked up about 5' away.  The shoe tags were picked up ~ 1' away when walking or directly over top of the mat when running.  I sprinted past the dog and hurdled the cat to simulate race conditions.  :)

[Peak Performance Timing]

When it read 5 feet away, were you crossing the mat as a racer would (across long side), or across the the short edge?

[Ohio Race Day]

As a racer would, across the long side.  But slowly approaching as a walker does.  With the tag pinned and hanging vertically from my chest.  Remember this is indoors so who knows what the radio waves are doing.

[Peak Performance Timing]

I was thinking the same thing about the bouncing indoor waves.....

[Ohio Race Day]

We timed a 5K 10K race today with the new mat antennas.  122 total finishers.  It was ~ 30 degrees (F) and damp at the start.  See the photos below of our finish line set up.  I used a Motorola FX9500 and two side panel antennas and two mat antennas at the finish line.  Further back I placed our TR290 wireless reader/antenna and the TR200 reader with single antenna as back up.  We didn't need the back up as the mat antennas and two side antennas picked up the shoe tags.  We did not specify on which shoe to place the shoe tag but I did make an announcement at the start to not tuck the tags beneath the laces.  Despite that I saw at least two runners who had tags under laces and we still got a read at the finish.  We had a 100% read rate today!  It even picked up the 10K runner that ran the 5K distance and the two people with swapped bib numbers.  LOL.  Of course!

Here is a little more info about the mats.  They are not light.  They weigh ~ 26 pounds each and can be moved one at a time but 52 pounds when stacked on top of one another is kind of heavy to be lifting out of back of a vehicle.  The mat is made of a non-slip, textured rubber and the decal has a slight texture to it as well. They did get damp today and but were not slippery.  They also have channels under a rubber flap to run cables.  The antenna connections are small brass things that I haven't seen before.  They snap together and seem a little flimsy.  The stainless steel hardware that hooks the two mats together was a PIA this morning in the dark and cold and on my knees.  It takes 8 phillips screws to hold two mats together completely.

I may have been still getting reads a foot  from the finish line for the walkers.  I'll have to watch more closely next race.  My back up timer and the primary system had the same times on spot checks.  The mats came with four different length antenna cables.  I used the two shortest and that gave me a pig tail of about 3' off the end of the one mat.  The longest two cables are probably 16' and 20'.  That seems too long for the cable size/thickness (LMR195??? not sure) so I might not use those two.  I did a second test of the mat antennas in the house yesterday.  They caught laminated tags tied on shoe laces, under shoe laces, on my chest, on my thigh and Hu-Tags on my ankle and upper arm.   I have a few 2x2" GAO tags that only read half the time.  Those will be tossed in the trash. The higher up the placement of the tag the earlier the read.  I was getting a read ~4' away from the finish line when the tags were placed above the waist.  This may have been due to being indoors.  The mats DEFINITELY work.  I can test tag orientation on bib numbers (outside) some other time.  I hooked up the two side panel antennas inside the house with the mat antennas and got a read on a couple tags that were INSIDE my shoes and under my foot.






Here is Michelle working the back up laptop.  We didn't use the two antennas on the cross bar tripod.  Those antennas are not hooked up.  I was going to capture a split at the 10K turn around just for kicks but opted not to.

[Chris Hubbard]

Great write up. Michelle looks cold. Will be looking more into the mats. I'd love to see one mat connected to a TR-200 and laptop, nothing else, and see how it would work for splits.

[rtspt.usa]

a few rid bit about those mats:

1) lift and move one at a time.. they aren't real bad but one at a time is better.

i put mine in my cargo coffin on top of my van so they are liftable overhead.

2) you do not need to use the connector hardware. i have not used it at all and that has been on the road, dirt, and uneven grass.

3) the ones from RM have a connector dongle (not sure if the ones from the manufacturer do) but it does make connecting very easy and lessens the chance of someone else breaking anything when tearing down.

4) not slippery at all.. used them in a rain, mud and slop xc meet and slippage or movement was not an issue.

5) if you plan on timing a xc meet where spikes could be used though. spikes would tear them up.

if i were to use them for a collegiate xc meet (with spikes) i would cover them with some sort of industrial floor mats. etc that you can get at Home Dept.

[SR Aaron]

@Ohio

This is great information! I have a TRI later in the year and was debating investing in mats for the transition zones this looks very promising.

Thanks for Posting
Aaron

[Chris Hubbard]

rtspt.us- That answered my other question, spikes! Thanks

[Ohio Race Day]

@rtspt,
Thanks for the heads up regarding XC spikes.  I have a long commercial floor mat runner to go over it. That will probably affect performance but it would be better than no mat antenna.

@SR Aaron,
They would work for transition zones, I'd think.  But so would the side antennas on tripods and those Hu-Tags.

@Chris,
The cable end is different and would need changed for the TR200.  Here are some photos of the connections.

[rtspt.usa]

Ohio,

do you think you matting would affect performance?  as long as it doesn't have any thing metallic or liquid in it i would think that it wouldn't but who knows.

[Ohio Race Day]

I don't think it will improve performance to put another layer of rubber over top of the antenna.  Let's say that.

[Tim Irvine]

Ohio, did the mat have a special adapter to make it fit to the existing cables? You can use an adapter to get it to fit the TR-200 I am pretty sure, I actually think I have one.

[rtspt.usa]

you definitely do not want to use adapters.  there is a significant amount of signal loss.  best to get a cable made up with the correct matching connectors.

there are many companies out there that make custom cables.

i want to get one myself so i will let you know what i come up with.

[Ohio Race Day]

@Tim and rtspt,

No adapters for cable connections were provided.  I could cut the 20' cable and have one made to connect to the TR200, I suppose.  But I really have no plans to hook them to the TR200 because I have two other readers (FX7400 model) that I would use for splits or transition areas.  That is a thought ... TR200 and a newer little netbook computer or maybe even a Windows 8 tablet with a USB adapter and one mat antenna ... in a small bin for the split or transition area.  Hmm ... something to think about while I go for a run.  Have a good day, all!

[Chris Hubbard]

That's what I mentioned above. It'd be a great set up for doing splits with.

[Ohio Race Day]

A couple running friends are putting together a free 10K after Christmas.  I'll time it and test some bib tags just for kicks.  No side panel antennas.  Mat antennas only.  I purchased a couple sample packs of RFID tags.  If you have some you'd like me to include in the test then send an email to ohior...@gmail.com for my home address.  I expect about 40 runners.  Here is the sample pack on Ebay.  I purchased 20 total tags and will orient them different ways on the bib.  I would like a couple foam backed tags if anybody has a few to spare.  I'll program them to my bib numbers.  No guarantees of good results.  I'll try to create a post-test spreadsheet with notes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151032799452?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

• UPM Ralflatac Rafsec G2 Short Dipole "Memorystick"
• Alien 9662 Adhesive Inlays
• UPM Belt Inlay
• Alien 9640 Adhesive Inlays
• UPM NXP Tag code 209_6 Adhesive Inlay

[Tim Irvine]

Can't wait to see how your test goes!

[Bruce B]

Thanks for sharing the test!
Will hutag(ankle) And the dogbone(BIB) be in the mix?

[Ohio Race Day]

@Bruce B,
Sure!  I have the Hu-Tags and somebody has agreed to donate some dogbones.

[Brian Agee]

Awesome! I can't wait to hear the results...

I haven't mailed the inlays out to you yet, I will try to get those out this weekend. 

Again, I've received multiple reports from people that have used other mats (most cheap ones from China though) over the last few years and they claimed they were junk. Even those that had tested brand name mats said they were only getting 60% when using ONLY a floor antenna in their tests - which makes sense if the tag is on the bib because it's coming across at a horrible angle to the antenna (not to mention close to the skin, sweaty bib, etc.). So I'm especially looking forward to hearing if these mats somehow do a decent job with bib tags. Of course the panel antennas on the side, with shoe or hip tags, will still be my recommended setup since that provides excellent results for the lowest price, but if these do work well then at least I'll have a solution to offer those that do want mat antennas. Thanks again!

[Chris Hubbard]

If you don't get dogbones with foam backers I can send some.

[Ohio Race Day]

@Brian Agee,
Thanks!  I think I'll run this as two races at the same time similar to a 5K / 10K.  The first race will be with our regular laminated shoe tags for the actual participants (they'll use Christmas / Winter funny names) and the second race will be for the test.  So, each runner will have two timing devices on them.  That will increase the numbers and fake the system into thinking double the number are crossing the line.  I'm more interested in the performance of the laminated shoe tags with mats only ... and I guess the Hu-Tags, too.  I really don't have plans for a bib tag but will test that mainly for everyone else.  I am interested in accurate results and will name the test race "participants" based on the tag (ie Dogbone Vertical, Squiggle Horizontal) or something to clarify the product and placement.  I'll make sure all bibs and tags are collected in a bucket far from the finish so I don't get a late read.  They get one chance!

The two runner friends are happy that I'm timing it for free and I'm happy to play with my new mat antennas.  LOL.

[Ohio Race Day]

@ Chris,
Yes.  I'm getting foam backers, too.

[Ohio Race Day]

Welp.  I tested the mat antennas this morning all by themselves. No side panel antennas or Thinkify readers as back up.  I used the Motorola FX9500.  A friend was holding a day-after-Christmas training 10k so I created two races in the system and started them at the same time.  The first race was the 10k with runners wearing the normal laminated shoe tag.  The runners used funny Christmas names.  You'll see that in the attached results.  The second race was the test with different RFID tags on the backs of tyvek bibs.  The bibs were worn by the same 10k runners in the normal fashion on the chest with four safety pins.  Although 15 people "signed up" for the race only 11 actually ran.  I was slightly disappointed in the low turn out.  But it was free and it was early and the day after Christmas and they were willing to be guinea pigs so ... we'll take it.  The RFID tags were oriented differently on the bib.  See the attached results with description of the tags and how oriented.  I used some from a sample pack that I ordered on Ebay (although I wasn't entirely sure of all the brand and models) and I got the DogBone type tags from a user in the group.  Some DogBones were mounted without foam backers some with foam backers.  Two Hu-Tags were worn.  Again see the Excel spreadsheet results.

The results I ended up with were less than satisfactory.  Of the 11 finishers with shoe tags, I missed four runners.  Those same runners had tags affixed to their bibs.  A few runners went back out with the other spare bibs and ran through so I could get a read on all of them.  Of the 25 bibs with RFID tags on them I missed 7 of those.  In looking at the results 6 of the 7 missed bib tags were horizontal.  I guess that tells us that orienting tags properly (in this case vertically) is important on linear polarized mat antennas.  I believe I would have had a lower number of misses if all were placed vertically on the bibs.  The Hu-Tags and DogBones did better than others.  The spot of the reads were from a range of 1.5' before the mat to 1.5' after the mat and that affected times by about 1 second on some runners. 


My photos are posted at the link below:
https://plus.google.com/photos/114364840817731264465/albums/6097298130251106017?authkey=CJSznYvh1si2pQE

Upon return to the house, I created a race on RunSignUp and uploaded the results using a csv file.  I then uploaded my video to YouTube and synced that up with the results.  It was a learning curve but not too complicated.  I shared the results link with the participants via Facebook.  Everybody likes a video or photograph.

RunSignUp results with video links are here:
https://runsignup.com/race/results/?raceId=14770#resultSetId-5141

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Chris Hubbard]

Nice work, I appreciate the data. This confirms what we've found as well with regards to bib chips- dogbone placed vertically works.

[Brian Agee]

Thanks for the detailed feedback! 

This mirrors the results that I've recieved from others that have used only mat antennas on the finish line. It looks like placing the tags vertically helps, but even if all were placed vertically I highly doubt a UHF RFID system using only mat antennas would reliably achieve 100% read rates. Tags coming across at a 90 degree angle to the antenna are easily missed. It would be a support nightmare for me if new customers ignored my advice and went with all mat antennas. So I'm glad you tested this setup and shared the results.

Last night another customer sent me something that I found interesting. Here is what Jaguar says about mat antennas: 

http://innovativetimingsystems.com/why-jaguar/#.VKBUoBoGQ

Of course I wouldn't recommend setting your antennas up like Jaguar does either, but I like their assessment on mat antennas.

[Ohio Race Day]

I got everything back from the few runners that we had.  So I intend to re-use the bibs with vertically oriented DogBone or Alien Squiggle RFID inlays and test them again with both mat and side antennas.  Our next race is not until late February, 'though.  Those brand tags performed best and I'd expect an improvement with side antennas included.  I'll run that test along side the regular laminated shoe tags that will be used for every runner.  Regarding the ankle worn Hu-Tags ... I think they'd work in a Nuclear War 5K & Mud Run with any antenna array.

Overall I'm not disappointed in the mat antennas.  Although pricey, I think they'll help us with the laminated shoe tags tucked under the laces and they definitely help tighten up the finish line area a little more.  I purposely tucked one runner's tag under her shoe laces when she asked me to affix the tag so she didn't have to remove her mittens (my white knight complex was kicking in).  The mat antennas picked up her tag.  I like the mat's color and low profile and clean look. I'd trade the Thinkify TR290 reader/antenna for another mat antenna, if I could.

Lastly, we just landed a 700 person 5K for late 2015 so all this testing becomes even more important as we plan to widen our finish line some and try to accommodate a greater bulk of finishers.

[Crystal McCullough]

Hi, Ohio Race Day, thank you for posting your thorough results. Since you are planning a wider finish line, does that mean you're buying another pair of mats?

[Ohio Race Day]

@ Crystal,
Yes.  I could buy one more mat and make it a 12' finish line (with side antennas).  Then I'd need my other reader and side antennas for the back up computer.  We would not use manual back up timing for this size of race.  Or ... I could buy three more mat antennas and have three across the finish line (12 feet) and two used for back up (8 feet) further back in the chute.  Those would have side panel antennas to supplement.  I'll decide in a few months after we use the mat antennas some more.  At this point, I've only used them for one actual race a few weeks ago.  I'll let folks here know if/when I make another purchase in case others want to jump in and try for a large order discount or something.  What are your thoughts?

[Ohio Race Day]

I got this email and got approval to share it ...

I'm just curious,

If mat antennas are very expensive and the read rates are poor why even bother?  Why not just use the side antennas which have much better read reliability?

Here was my reply ...

You didn't post your reply to the group so I'm assuming you don't want the answer there either.  I'll reply direct.

I don't consider the read rate of the mat antennas to be "poor."  At least not at this point in the testing.  Since the only missed vertical bib tag was a single Alien 9660, the mats might be doing their job.  They did not miss any vertical DogBone tags. 

I'm not happy that they missed so many shoe tags but they did catch the tag tucked into the laces which is the primary reason that I wanted to purchase them.  I'll eventually list out my own Pros and Cons privately and make a decision about the purchase of more mats.  Right now I'm leaning towards buying more of them since the Pros outweigh the Cons for me.  Here is my rough list ...

Pros

- allows for a wider finish line

- picks up tags under laces

- may give option for accurate bib tag reads, more testing needed

- clean appearance, less cable mess

- need a mat across finish anyway to protect cables stretching to other side

- finish line read area is tighter with linear polarization and not spread back into the chute with antennas lined up

- first race 100% read rate when used with side antennas

Cons

- price

- price again

- set up is a PIA

- not perfect 100% read rate when used alone in test

[Tim Irvine]

Ohio,

  I am curious about something with your test. When you tested the mat alone, did you disable the un-used ports? Meaning if you hooked it up to 2 of your 4 ports on your reader or 2 of 8, did you turn off the ports not being used so the reader would not try to use them? My Imping can turn them off and I wasn't sure if you were missing a read or two while the un-used ports were being looked at by the reader. Just checking, Tim

[rtspt.usa]

the mat set up shouldn't be a pain at all.. don't use those connector brackets.

i haven't used them once and they've been set up on grass, dirt, mud and asphalt.

these mats have excellent read rates. like alot of this stuff it depends on the type of tags, placement and orientation.

with these mats it has been solidly proven that dogbone tags vertically on the bib, etc.perform the best.

[Ohio Race Day]

@Tim Irvine,
Nope.  I don't know how to disable un-used ports on the Motorola FX9500.  Sorry.

[Ohio Race Day]

@rtspt.usa,

Thanks.  I might make some type of quick pin connector for them instead of the screw and plate thingy.

[Russ Zornick]

I just bought 3 mat antennas from ATLASRFID (TIMES-7 RFID RACE TIMING ANTENNA SYSTEM) .  I bought them 2 months ago but had to return them because they were defective.   My reader would not detect them because they did not have the 10 Ohm built in resister.  I just got my replacement antennas  and used them for the first time this weekend.    I use the Dogbone chips which were attached to the runners hip with a safety pin.  I had 2 readers setup.   One with just the mat antenna.   And the other with the 4 side antenna.  The mat antenna performed extremely poorly.   Out of 361 finishers, it missed 90 chips (25%).   The side antenna only missed 6 finishers.  And I am pretty sure the chips were not worn properly in those 6 cases.   At the mass start,  the mat antenna only missed 54   compared to 21 from the side antenna.  The mat antenna did pick up 4 reads that the side antenna missed.    One of the main reason I bought the mat antennas was to improve the read rate especially at the start.

The one thing that might have affected the performance was rain.  It was a constant mist or shower during the race.   And I could see the mat antennas performing more poorly as the race went on.   I am sorry that I bought these antennas and I will try to take them back.  If they do work in rain (and I time all my races in Oregon and Washington),  they are useless to me.

[rtspt.usa]

not sure about the times 7 mats (although they are designed for sports timing applications) but if they are linear then the dogbones need to be placed vertically.

i am assuming that they were worn on the hip with a single pin??  thus the dogbone's could have been flapping around --thus more than likely not always vertical??

any pics of your set up?

[Russ Zornick]

The chips were suppose to be worn on the hip with a single pin.   And from my experience, when the chips flaps around, it has better chance of being read.    When the chip is tight against the body, it does read as well.

Unfortunately I do not have any pictures.  I usually take pictures but because of the rain, I stayed under the canopy as much as possible.

[rtspt.usa]

unfortunately when they are flapping around chances are they are not vertical. they really need to be vertical (and controlled).

i stick mine on the front of the bib to give some separation. foam spacers also work very well.

my last xc meet was in the rain, mud, and slop.. no misses.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Russ,

Sorry to hear this....I too am looking for a more reliable way to pick up mass starts. My last race, I had 392 starters, two overhead circularly antennas and two circularly side antennas at the start, single horizontal dogbone with foam spacer on bib. I had 59 missed reads at the start. I was also thinking about mat antennas, but maybe this isn't the answer. At the same race I had 1 miss at the finishline on the main RFID reader, but had a backup RFID reader that caught that one. I want to believe, at least in my case that some of the misses at the start were due to people putting bibs on their thighs and under clothing, but I know all weren't. Also it was raining at start. Keep us updated if you do more experimenting and have any luck.

[Russ Zornick]

Below is a picture from the start of the 10K.  It read everyone at the start except for the far left guy (bib 111).   It missed bib 131 and 111 at the finish.   My side antenna picked them all up nicely.   There was a photographer at the finish who got everyone's finish.  After looking at the photos and comparing the read rate  to the position of the chip, it was hard to see a pattern.  But it seems that when the tag was vertical and on the front side, it read best.  I found numerous examples where the chip was vertical but on the side and they did not read.   I also found several examples where they were horizontal and they read fine.  And I saw numerous examples where the chip was flopping around, and it would read sometimes.   In the case of  the 6 missed reads from the side antenna, the chip was not visible in any of pictures.   

I am timing another large race next Saturday.  I am going to an experiment where I will attach at least 50 chips to the bibs in a vertical position and see what my read rate is.  I will report back.  And thanks to everyone who responded.

[Crystal McCullough]

Russ, 

I noticed that your side antennas seem low on the tripods, are pointed slightly downward, and aren't perpendicular to the line (or at least appear that way in this photo). All of these factors are those that people here have found can influence misreads or odd patterns of reads (reading someone well before the finish; reading a runner ahead of another runner who is actually in back of them, etc).

Also, are your tags covered with a sticker or something that would absorb water? I ask because someone else in the group -- Doug of Blue Ridge Timing -- found that paper labels on his tags would absorb water and often made the tags unreadable. See https://groups.google.com/d/msg/agee-race-timing/BD8fNFgeJ8U/zPJifXPrxKkJ

Crystal

[Russ Zornick]

Crystal,

You are right.  I probably have them down too low and they are pointing down slightly.   I will correct that.  But I purposely did not have them perpendicular for a couple reasons.  First, I have heard that if you have 2 readers, they can interfere with each other.   So I wanted to make sure the backup readers were not pointing in the same directions as the primary reader.  Secondly,  I have found that if you have the antennas at different angles, it can pick up reads when 2 or more runners finish side by side.   I found that a body will block a read.     Thirdly, I only put my the antenna from the backup reader at weird angles and I usually put them behind the finish line.  My software only uses the backup readers if the primary reader does not pick up the chip.   Also, my options were very limited  since I started using the new mats.  My cables are only 20 feet long and I only have 4 feet of slack at the end of the mat.

And thanks for the advise about the paper labels.  For this race, I did not do that.   But I have done that in the past.

Russ

[rtspt.usa]

yep, Crystal makes some good points.

the downward angle can't be helping things.

i would also spread out your antennas a little more. everything looks too concentrated on one area.

[Tim Irvine]

If I may also chime in. I thought I read earlier that everyone wore the tag on their hip. I would have raised the side antennas slightly and did you have a side antenna on the far side?

[Russ Zornick]

Tim, Yes.  All chips were suppose to be worn on the hip.  And I agree, I should have had the antennas higher.   And I did have 3 other antennas on the far side that were set farther a part since I had a lot more slack on the cables that were on the reader side.

[izzyesteron]

Hi Russ,

In my opinion mat antennas are the still the most practical way to time a race so give those mats a chance.  I don't have  the same mats as yours but like most floor antennas they will be Linear in polarity.  However,

-if you need a backup system to read chips that are placed on the hips then you should have another antenna setup like your primary which uses the side mounted antennas.  If you are using Brian's setup then you should get an excellent read rate at the FINISH. Side mounted antennas read poorly during mass starts when capturing Chip Times and you should not attempt to gather CHIP Start Times at the start.

-mat antennas will enable you to capture Chip Times and Finishes only when :

                              -the tags are oriented vertically on the bib (near the edges and with foam backings) and the bib placed in front of the runner

                              -the tags placed on shoe like disposable shoe tags or Brian Agee's tags placed on the laces. Due to the tags proximity to the                                      antenna, expect excellent read rate.

Therefore:  If you need to backup your side mounted antennas with the mat antennas then using Brian Agee's lace tags (or similar) would be the best way to go in your next race.

Hope this helps.  Thanks

[Peak Performance Timing]

Izzyesteron,

When you say

"the tags are oriented vertically on the bib (near the edges and with foam backings) and the bib placed in front of the runner"

Are you implying 2 tags near the outside edges (left and right)?

[izzyesteron]

Hi PPT, yes the tag should be oriented vertically near the edges with foam backing.  You may use 2 for good measure (or if practical) therefore left and right.  My photo shows the back of a race bib with only one tag under the foam. By placing the tags on the sides of the race bib the antenna will be able to read it better because it is further away from the body as opposed to it being in the middle and center of the chest or stomach.   This is if you are using a mat antenna which is usually linear.  I have no experience with overhead antennas but they are usually circular just like side mounted ones and tags may be oriented horizontally. I think lots of timers are omitting the foam especially when the tags are placed in front of the bib.  When it's dry and over short distances like 10k or less then they may work fine.  But when it rains, or with longer distances and especially trail runs then foam works to separate the wet clothing and body from the chip.  Sorry about the pic...I can't find a nice race bib to photo! Hope this helps. 

[Peak Performance Timing]

Since this thread is focused on mat antennas, I am curious to know if anyone has used Impinj Threshold antennas with antenna ramps with the ART system.

[Chris Hubbard]

That's what Chronotrack uses with much success. We've been looking at them; only mounted overhead, facing down. I'd also be interested to hear if anyone is using them with ART.

[Tim Irvine]

I have two Imping Threshold Antennas and ramps, but I have not used them since I bought ART. I could test them with Bib chips vertical and let you know if it works well.

[Russ Zornick]

Well I did my experiment with my mats at a 10K/Half Marathon on Saturday in Forest Grove, Oregon.  There were 599 finishers.

I was happy with the results but I am embarrassed at what I did.  For 50 half marathoners, I double chipped them.  I place one chip vertically on their bib with no foam and the other one on their hip.  I had my highest read rate ever for a race that size.   I only missed 4 finish line reads (99.5% read rate)     and I got a feeling that the 4 missed reads were due to runners not wearing the bibs properly.  The one woman I chased down had her chip in her fanny pack along with her other belongings (phone, keys etc..).  The other 3 missed reads were all for runners with times at over 1 hour for a 10K.  So I assume they were inexperienced runners and did not follow instructions.   I had a perfect read rate for the half marathon.

Here is the embarrassing thing that I did.   I was really rushed setting up the mats because there was a one hour early start for the half marathon that I did not know about. There were numerous early starters waiting to start.  So in my haste, I did not hook up the cables correctly.  I hooked up one mat antenna cable to another side antenna.  And the cable that was supposed to be hooked up to the  side antenna, was hooked up to another port on the reader.   So I was only using  2 mats on my primary reader.  Fortunately, I had my backup reader running with all 4 antennas hooked up properly.  I also had one other problem.  During the finish, my network cable came loose.  So I did not pick up any reads for an 8 minute period.

Here are the encouraging results for the mats.   The mat antennas had 6 more  chips reads from the vertically place chip on the bib than it  did from the  chip on the hip. This is for the start out of 40 total reads.  I assume the other 10 did not cross the working mat.   For the Finish, I had 10 more bib reads than hip reads.  However, there were a total of 3 chips that were not picked up by any of the mat antennas.  I hope I can assume that they crossed the mat that was not hooked up.   In addition, I had about 4 reads from my mat antennas that my side antennas did not read.  So the combination of mat and side antennas worked very well.

 So I can say without any doubt,  that vertically placed chip on the bib is the only way to go with mat antennas.  Thanks to everyone who gave me some great advise.  I am thrilled with my 99.5% read rate with my system.

[Peak Performance Timing]

What were the results for the chip reads for the 10k start? Was your vertically placed chip close to bib edge? Front or back of bib?

[Russ Zornick]

PPT,  I only put chips on bibs 1 through 50 which were all for the Half Marathon.  None of the 10Kers had chips on the bib.  On the first 25 bibs, I placed the chip on the front  left edge.  For the next 25, I placed the chip on the back on the same edge.   

At the start,  the side antennas missed 4 reads from the chips on the bib.   The mat antenna picked up all 4 of those missed reads.   2 of those chips were on the front and the other 2 were on the back of the bib.   For the finish reads, the side antennas picked up 100% of the chips on the bib.

In 2 weeks I have another half marathon with over 500 registered.  I am going 100% with chips on the bib since I had such a high success rate.  I will report back

BTW:  Here is a link to a cool video of the race taken by a drone.  You can see my setup very well from the video.

Video Link

[Peak Performance Timing]

Cannot wait to hear the results!

[Tim Irvine]

I love the drone video. I have kicked around about getting one myself. My biggest fear is if something were to malfunction in a race and crash into a participant like this one Drone Story. At the TV station I work at we were going to get one for crowd shots but our corporate office put the brakes on it for the same reason. I would still do it if I had one, but would likely only use it for perimeter shots. 

[Ohio Race Day]

Another test of the mat antennas today.  We had 211 finishers.  One runner (in the photo) did not have his shoe tag but I captured his time manually.  We missed one other runner but I didn't see if he had a shoe tag or not.  Two mat antennas and two side antennas.  I also tested 10 Dogbone tags on the back of bibs, placed vertically, off to the side of the bib with no foam spacer.  We got all 10 of those.  The times were all slightly early (.5 to 1.5 seconds) on the test bib tags compared to the shoe tags.  See the finish line photo.  I even angled back the side antennas ever so slightly to compensate for the early read and it did tighten up the times a little bit to correspond to the actual finish line crossing.  This makes me think the side antennas are still doing the bulk of the work despite a sideways look at the bib RFID tag.  Maybe I'll run the "Store RFID" activity some time to see which antennas are capturing more tags.

[Tim Irvine]

Ohio, Just a thought on this. It could be the side antennas are doing the bulk of the work simply because they are the first to receive the signal. If you moved the side antennas down the chute about 3 feet - 5 feet, I am curious if perhaps the mats would get the chip first that way. Just a thought. Nice finish chute!

[Ohio Race Day]

Another small race today.  I used one mat antenna with the Motorola FX7400 on a POE injector device.  The FX7400 works great that way and connects quickly.  I also used Dogbone tags on the back of bibs (vertically oriented) and a couple side antennas, too.  We missed one guy who had his bib up high and only two safety pins on it so the bib tag was flipped up on his neck when he crossed the finish line.  See the photos.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4iwKZf81RxxTk1MX1pxVlBUejN3TDZaVUVmSlk4VUNqUC1V/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4iwKZf81RxxZ1d1anFuQ3JRRkdMak1qMjhpbGdCRzYtTGFv/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4iwKZf81RxxS0RaNnVCUGZ2YkFDNVFBWGR2MUROclNyLVFB/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4iwKZf81RxxZTQ5SmlReC1naVEzZ05LM2QzdmVDekxWNklZ/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4iwKZf81RxxY3M3YjBfWG9KeFY5OTd5clM4bmZrS2xsRC1r/view?usp=sharing

[Matthew Johnson]

Hello,

I recently had a horrible experience where I missed 2/3 of the tags during an event. Admittedly, it was my first "real" event solo. After contacting Brian Agee to essentially  to "blame" the software I learned that even my backup strategy of manually timing the race gleaned inaccurate results.  I manually timed the race wrong because I did not have enough help and the backup computer was not employed. This was an embarrassing and costly mistake, and despite my many days of planning I neglected some very minor yet important details about RFID and Event management in general.  You could possibly learn from my mistakes too, that is why  I am being so candid here.

Brian was not only helpful in his software support, but he also offered suggestions out of the scope of his "creation." 

My setup - Two 4' wide Times-7 mat antennas "mat.jpg" . These are linearly poled and attached via the standard antenna cable to an Impinj speedway revolution 420 "reader.png". Alien squiggle (higgs-4) tags

The foot traffic was tightly controlled through a standard archway so a runner getting out of range did not seem likely. The operational "float test" came out good. Admittedly the "float" test is biased and there are too many independent variables that it do not prove useful. Float test is what the "Times -7 Engineers suggested and is employed by simply "floating" a tag over the mat.

BLAH!!!

I heard that placing the tag on the bib could cause issues and possibly fail when using linear mat antennas.

To test completely and rule out the antennas and software, I scraped up the remaining dignity I had, and tested 17 tag locations on my body. The locations were chest, torso, thigh, and shin. I also placed a rudimentary shoe tag on my left foot "laces area." Each location had a vertical and horizontally oriented tag placement in the tyvek bibs, except for the shoe.

I ran the same test a dozen times, and every result was the exactly the same:

100% read for shoe tags

100% read for shins

50% read for thigh (vertical tag only)

50% read for lower (Vertical tag only)

0% read for chest placement.

Conclusion: When using mat antennas then shoe tags are a must.

Moving forward I have only made changes to my tagging method, which will be tested extensively over the coming weeks.

I opted out of adding a second system, because I wanted to get the primary fully functional first.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Here are the pictures, if they show:

 

[Run Roanoke]

I can relate to the bad experience, the first time I used the software I made a couple bad mistakes and screwed up some things.  But I did have a back up plan and pulled things together and was able to send everyone home happy.  A little later than expected.  But the most important thing I learned was that always have a back up plan and  learn from your mistakes. 

[SR Aaron]

Hi Matthew,

Readers and cables make a big difference in your signal strength, if you're getting 0% reads on the chest then I would think your reader is not powerful enough. We use Motorola and there's a noticeable power difference (read distance) between the FX7400 and FX9500, you might want to research and compare your unit with other readers. Using the wrong cable type/lengths can also make your signal weak.

The body position of a runner/walker also plays a factor, runners lean forward while walkers stand straight up. The mat antenna signal for runners is better for a chest location as they are exposing their chest, the opposite is true with walkers as their bodies block the mat antenna signal from the chest area.

So far this year, 8 races with 99%-100% reads each. The software works great and Brian has always helped in a time of need. Email me if you have any questions. -Aaron

[blueridgetiming]

Good things come with practice and time. I started using this system with NO success. I wanted to blame everything on the system right away. However, my issues arose through an unforseen problem (labels placed on outside of tag, collected water and resulted in terrible read rates) While I thought I was doing athletes a favor, I ended up prohibiting the system from working.

On the other hand, I went into my first 5 races with ART as a backup, with finishlynx being my main system. It was double the work with data being in two systems, but when ART didn't work as planned, no one noticed (besides me).

Since then, discussions here, and talking to Brian, I'm getting 100% reads, although I still have a 2nd computer as a backup with someone else recording all bibs as they come across.

Give it time and you'll never look back.

[Tim Irvine]

I also use the same reader you use, but I do not use the Times 7 antennas. However, there are some folks in the group who could advise you on that. I am sure you will trial and error test this as we all do. I still learn something new to avoid almost every race. Just get comfortable with the software. Use this group. A lot of great folks on here more than willing to answer questions. Best of luck! Tim

[rickcummins05]

Ohio,

Forgive me if this is not the most intelligent question.

Would you suggest using mats in addition to antennas at all finish lines to add another level of "sensing" in an attempt at 100% read rates?

I'm using 8 antennas and have decent success with those that are worn correctly - I'm wondering if the mats would give some more margin for error with those that don't wear correctly??

I know Brian always says that it is near flawless if the chip is worn correctly - and as much as I agree - the folks that don't follow instructions seem to complain the most.....

Thanks

[Ohio Race Day]

rick,

We use both mats and side panel antennas.  The mats are linear polarized.  The side antennas are circular polarized.  Our race last Saturday had 125 runners; we set up two mats and two side panel antennas and missed only one runner.  I just never liked the messy look of a bunch of panel antennas lining the chute like a gauntlet.  But initially, I was trying to avoid missing the tags that were tucked into shoe laces.  We now mostly use one dogbone style rfid inlay on the back of a bib number.  There is less instruction given to runners ("wear your bib number on your front outer garment, on your shorts is ok, just not on your back") so less chance of runner error.  See my pros and cons in the comments above.

[Jon Beverley]

I am not using the Agee software as it is not compatible with my readers but I keep an eye on this group to learn about people's experiences with RFID in general.

I decided to "borrow" Brian's great reusable tag design but modify it slightly and use DogBone tags. See picture below.

These give greater range than the alien tags and I've had a few races now with 100% read rates. One of the races was pouring with rain too so I was more than happy with the performance.

I am using 3 CS203 readers ( http://ww1.convergence.com.hk/products_details.php?id=56 ) 1 either side of the finish line and then one about 5m past and funneling the runners so they have to go very close to it. 

Heres a link to the results and photos of last weekends race - http://www.totalracetiming.co.uk/raceresults/3

I'm running two cameras on the finish line, one fired by tag reads and the other but an infrared beam (which I'd highly recommend BTW - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008X0VPVW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00 it can be wired directly to the remote port on Canon (and probably other) cameras)

The DogBones I am using are the R6's which are new ones from Smartrac they have an even better range that the previous M4D's. I had to buy 5000 of them so if any one wants to buy some off me let me know. I'm in the UK by the way.

[Chris Hubbard]

We achieve 100% read rates using a Motorola FX9500 connected to two sided mounted antennas (Motorola AN-400, left&right hand circular polarization) and three or four (depending on finish line size) overhead antennas (Impinj Threshold, linear polarization). We use two Smartrac Dogbone Inlay on the front of each bib number mounted vertically with no foam spacer. The other item people miss, we only use Times LMR-240 or LMR-400 cables. We use the 400's for cables over 25 feet long.

We buy Dogbones 5000 at a time so it cost us 35 cents per bib. In the last two months we've had one missed read out of thousands. 

Someone asked about rain. We have a cover for the top of the finish line that covers the Impinj antennas that we normally use. However, we are moving into a new warehouse and that cover was misplaced for this event.

[Tim Irvine]

I like your logo Jon

[tiberiu.gindu]

Jon,

you say it's easy to wire the output of the infrared detector to the remote port of Canon.

Do you have a circuit description and/or pinout diagram?  Thanks!

[Jon Beverley]

The infra red sensor just acts as a switch so you just need to wire it to the tip and the ground of a 2.5mm jack.

The infra red can either open the switch when the beam is broken or close a switch depending on witch terminal you use so you need to check the correct terminal.

See http://www.doc-diy.net/photo/remote_pinout/#canon for a description of the jack.

[bmatt]

Where can I purchase the white shoe tags?