EU != Europe

[Dirk Wetter]

Hi,

I mentioned this over Slack already but maybe this slipped through…

Personally I found the term „AppSec EU conference“ sounds rather excluding and every time I read it I think What?


It may sound rather hair-splitting for Americans (sorry for my sarcasm) but Europe is the geographical thing and the EU is the ecomomic union. It excludes the Brits (sorry to saw you guys leaving), it doesn’t include the Swiss folks (sorry Christian F. You can’t come ;-) ), the Norwegians. And most of the Balkan countries are also not included.

If OWASP takes inclusion seriously , we should better name it AppSec Europe. Or maybe rename the AppSec USA to AppSec USMCA. (Hint: that was sarcasm, too).


Cheers, Dirk



PS: Not that people get this the wrong way: I have no general problem with the EU.



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[Guled Abdilahi]

Hey Dirk,

I would say many of us saw your comment and didn’t feel like it warranted a discussion. It appears to be a minor issue. 

Unless the EU/Europe leaders feel otherwise? 

/G

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[Dirk]

Hi Guled,

did you read my arguments or why didn't you argue st least ? Are you from Europe (hint: No). But why did you answer ?

Thanks, Dirk

[Christian Folini]

Hi there,

On Sun, Dec 29, 2024 at 10:37:56PM +0100, Dirk Wetter wrote:
> Personally I found the term „AppSec EU conference“ sounds rather excluding
> and every time I read it I think What?
>
> It may sound rather hair-splitting for Americans (sorry for my sarcasm) but
> Europe is the geographical thing and the EU is the ecomomic union. It
> excludes the Brits (sorry to saw you guys leaving), it doesn’t include the
> Swiss folks (sorry Christian F. You can’t come ;-) ), the Norwegians. And
> most of the Balkan countries are also not included.

I was never of the impression that the AppSec EU was for EU citizens
only and having attended the conference countless times, I always felt
welcome, despite my Swiss passport. On top, it rarely happens outside
the European Union anyways.

Honestly, this is a non-issue from my perspective. I do not even associate
the two letters EU strictly with the European Union.

Just my 2 cents.

Christian F. who still plans to come


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mistakes, are the most dangerous people to have in charge.
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[Dave Wichers]

That makes sense. I don't think it was ever intended to be exclusionary. Maybe just rename it AppSec Europe, which I believe was the intent of the meaning anyway? Just a few more letters and easily addresses their concerns.

-Dave

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[Erlend Oftedal]

It used to be called AppSec Europe for this reason (see attached screenshots).

Erlend

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[Dirk Wetter]

Hi Christian,

> Am 30.12.2024 um 14:28 schrieb Christian Folini <christia...@netnea.com>:
>
> Hi there,
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2024 at 10:37:56PM +0100, Dirk Wetter wrote:
>> Personally I found the term „AppSec EU conference“ sounds rather excluding
>> and every time I read it I think What?
>>
>> It may sound rather hair-splitting for Americans (sorry for my sarcasm) but
>> Europe is the geographical thing and the EU is the ecomomic union. It
>> excludes the Brits (sorry to saw you guys leaving), it doesn’t include the
>> Swiss folks (sorry Christian F. You can’t come ;-) ), the Norwegians. And
>> most of the Balkan countries are also not included.
>
> I was never of the impression that the AppSec EU was for EU citizens
> only and having attended the conference countless times, I always felt
> welcome, despite my Swiss passport. On top, it rarely happens outside
> the European Union anyways.

Sure, I had the same impression that everybody was welcome. But that perspective might become different for citizens of countries which want to get into the EU for 20 years and haven’t succeeded yet. Some of those countries are not even partipating in Schengen Agreement as Switzerland or Norway. Literally telling them in the name „hey, you need a visa“ isn’t fine.

Naming that EU might not come across the way intended. You might have noticed AppSec US(A) became AppSec Global (only) after 2021.


Cheers!


Dirk (cu in Spain)

>
>
> --
> Those who think that they know, but are mistaken, and act upon their
> mistakes, are the most dangerous people to have in charge.
> -- Margret Thatcher

[Bil Corry - Treasurer]

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but will point out that the location in the Global AppSec name is meant to designate WHERE the conference is being held, not WHO can attend it.  All of our conferences are open to everyone everywhere.

- Bil

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[kingt...@gmail.com]

Well said Bill!

[Erlend Oftedal]

So we cannot have it in Norway or UK then? ;P

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[Harold Blankenship]

Cheers. Love the snark, Dirk. Bil is spot on. There were a few years where the conference was simply called Global AppSec - City Name. This eliminated the whole EU/USA issue and was fairly clean. But sometimes going backwards is going forwards or...is that vice versa? :) In any case, I also do not have any strong opinion about it either way.

- Harold (this time from my owasp.org email address) :P

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[ti...@owasp.org]

In case we opened this issue, then let it be 

AppSec Europa

following the correct thinking of British gentlemen at IT Europa (see iteuropa.com).

Why should we join the cult of using the English version of the name? (Actually French) While the majority of the involved countries/languages use the proper Latin word or a version clearly ending in 'a'! (Not to mention Japanese.))

Also:

!== 

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[johan sydseter]

I feel Erlend has a point (both of us are Norwegians btw.), but I don’t have any strong feeelings about it. I just hope you will be open for doing AppSec EU in London some time in the future. I guess it will be called AppSec Europe if London, Glasgow or Edinburgh becomes a future location for the conference.

Happy new year to you all!

1. jan. 2025 kl. 00:42 skrev ti...@owasp.org:



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[Dirk Wetter]

Hi Bill,

you didn't get my point. EU is not a location, it's an economic union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_union . I would vote then to call the AppSec Global 2025 in Washington "AppSec USMCA". That is spot on!1! :-P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Mexico%E2%80%93Canada_Agreement .


Cheers

Dirk

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[Bil Corry]

Oh, sorry, I missed your point.

To be fair, it’s more than an economic union:

Again, I am indifferent to changing the name.

Not sure who makes that decision, but the Board can take a vote on it.  I suggest reaching out to Andrew, ask him to put this as a discussion item at the next board meeting, and attend to give your reasoning for the name change.  If the Board agrees, they can call a motion to change the name and it’s done.

- Bil

On Jan 5, 2025, at 9:27 AM, Dirk Wetter <di...@owasp.org> wrote:

Hi Bill,

[John DiLeo]

I could have sworn there was a 'policy' pronouncement a few years back, which "mandated" the naming convention:

• OWASP Global AppSec-<City Name> for global events; and
• OWASP AppSec Days-<City Name> for local/regional events.

Naturally, there were lots of immediate exceptions demanded for existing conferences with long-established brands (LASCON, OWASP New Zealand Day, etc.), but it was my understanding the decision was made by the Board specifically to eliminate the issue being discussed in this thread.

Of course, I can't find anything about conference naming in the current Events Policy, so maybe this was quietly dropped?

--John D.

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[Grant Ongers (OWASP)]

I recall that being a choice made too, but it must have been operational rather than a Board decision: there is no record of a vote here 

https://owasp.org/www-board/#div-voting

Grant Ongers Co-Lead | OWASP Cornucopia Project Co-Lead | OWASP OWASP PSCF OWASP Compliance Officer F164 738F 16BF FDBF F0B6 5720 C986 8AF7 5F41 97BE

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[Dirk Wetter]

Hi Andrew,

see thread.

If there's no policy or a board decision, can we have one and stick best what we had in the past few years (see John's + Grant's remark <-- thx guys!).

Cheers, Dirk

PS: Hope you're doing fine in down under now.

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [leaders] EU != Europe
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2025 00:30:30 +0000
From: Grant Ongers (OWASP) <grant....@owasp.org>
To: John DiLeo <john....@owasp.org>
CC: Bil Corry <bil....@owasp.org>, Dirk Wetter <di...@owasp.org>, Christian Folini <christia...@netnea.com>, Leaders <lea...@owasp.org>, Andrew van der Stock <andrew.va...@owasp.com>



I recall that being a choice made too, but it must have been operational rather than a Board decision: there is no record of a vote here

https://owasp.org/www-board/#div-voting <https://owasp.org/www-board/#div-voting>


Grant Ongers
Co-Lead | OWASP Cornucopia Project <https://owasp.org/www-project-cornucopia/>
Co-Lead | OWASP OWASP PSCF <https://owasp.org/www-project-product-security-capabilities-framework/>

OWASP Compliance Officer
F164 738F 16BF FDBF F0B6 5720 C986 8AF7 5F41 97BE

On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 at 21:20, John DiLeo <john....@owasp.org <mailto:john....@owasp.org>> wrote:

I could have sworn there was a 'policy' pronouncement a few years back, which "mandated" the naming convention:

* OWASP Global AppSec-<City Name> for global events; and
* OWASP AppSec Days-<City Name> for local/regional events.

Naturally, there were lots of immediate exceptions demanded for existing conferences with long-established brands (LASCON, OWASP New Zealand Day, etc.), but it was my understanding the decision was made by the Board /specifically /to eliminate the issue being discussed in this thread.

Of course, I can't find anything about conference naming in the current Events Policy, so maybe this was quietly dropped?

--John D.

On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 5:45 AM Bil Corry <bil....@owasp.org <mailto:bil....@owasp.org>> wrote:

Oh, sorry, I missed your point.

To be fair, it’s more than an economic union:

eu-socialmedia-fallback.png
Easy to read – about the EU | European Union <https://european-union.europa.eu/easy-read_en>
european-union.europa.eu <https://european-union.europa.eu/easy-read_en>

<https://european-union.europa.eu/easy-read_en>

Again, I am indifferent to changing the name.

Not sure who makes that decision, but the Board can take a vote on it.  I suggest reaching out to Andrew, ask him to put this as a discussion item at the next board meeting, and attend to give your reasoning for the name change.  If the Board agrees, they can call a motion to change the name and it’s done.

- Bil

> On Jan 5, 2025, at 9:27 AM, Dirk Wetter <di...@owasp.org <mailto:di...@owasp.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>

> you didn't get my point. EU is not a location, it's an economic union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_union <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_union> . I would vote then to call the AppSec Global 2025 in Washington "AppSec USMCA". That is spot on!1! :-P
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Mexico%E2%80%93Canada_Agreement <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Mexico%E2%80%93Canada_Agreement> .

>
>
> Cheers
>
> Dirk
>
>
> On 30.12.24 23:16, Bil Corry - Treasurer wrote:
>> I don't have a strong opinion on this, but will point out that the location in the Global AppSec name is meant to designate WHERE the conference is being held, not WHO can attend it.  All of our conferences are open to everyone everywhere.
>> - Bil

>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 12:26 PM Dirk Wetter <di...@owasp.org <mailto:di...@owasp.org> <mailto:di...@owasp.org <mailto:di...@owasp.org>>> wrote:
>>    Hi Christian,

>>    To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leaders+u...@owasp.org <mailto:leaders%2Bunsu...@owasp.org> <mailto:leaders%2Bunsu...@owasp.org <mailto:leaders%252Buns...@owasp.org>>.
>>    To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/a/owasp.org/d/msgid/leaders/903E8609-BE44-436F-A027-DE30BD6668DA%40owasp.org <https://groups.google.com/a/owasp.org/d/msgid/leaders/903E8609-BE44-436F-A027-DE30BD6668DA%40owasp.org> <https://groups.google.com/a/owasp.org/d/msgid/leaders/903E8609-BE44-436F-A027-DE30BD6668DA%40owasp.org <https://groups.google.com/a/owasp.org/d/msgid/leaders/903E8609-BE44-436F-A027-DE30BD6668DA%40owasp.org>>.

>
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