Looking for feedback on PDFs, Windows 10 , Telemetry, Maintenance Service

[Mike Kaply]

We've had a few things come up internally, and since y'all are my goto for getting enterprise feedback, I'd appreciate any input you have on these three questions that are completely unrelated to each other. Feel free to just respond to one or two if that's all you have feedback on.

1. Right now, if a page has PDFs embedded (example), and you have a default PDF reader set other than Firefox, we launch your PDF reader. This makes for kind of a clunky experience because you now have a page with blank areas on it. We're considering using the built-in Firefox PDF viewer in those cases, even if you have a default viewer set for when you download PDFs. I'm wondering what folks think about that? How common is the embedded PDF case in enterprises?

2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up. Is Windows 10 still being used in your enterprises? If so, are people just planning to pay for support from Microsoft?

3. Are most folks on this list choosing to disable telemetry? We're wondering how skewed our enterprise numbers are.

4. Do most folks install and use the maintenance service to update Firefox or just simply not install it? We're considering removing the policy to disable the maintenance service since if you don't want to use it, you would probably just not install it.

Anyway, appreciate a discussion on any or all of these topics.

--

Mike Kaply

Technical Partner Lead

Mozilla Corporation

[Andrew J. Buehler]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2025-02-28 at 11:05, 'Mike Kaply' via enter...@mozilla.org wrote:

> We've had a few things come up internally, and since y'all are my
> goto for getting enterprise feedback, I'd appreciate any input you
> have on these three questions that are completely unrelated to
> each other. Feel free to just respond to one or two if that's all
> you have feedback on.
>
> 1. Right now, if a page has PDFs embedded (example

> <https://pdfobject.com/examples/embed-multiple-PDFs.html>), and

> you have a default PDF reader set other than Firefox, we launch
> your PDF reader. This makes for kind of a clunky experience because
> you now have a page with blank areas on it. We're considering using
> the built-in Firefox PDF viewer in those cases, even if you have a
> default viewer set for when you download PDFs. I'm wondering what
> folks think about that? How common is the embedded PDF case in
> enterprises?

I am not intimately familiar with all use cases even just within my
enterprise, but just offhand I am not thinking of any cases where an
embedded PDF would be presented, except perhaps on public-facing
Websites which we are accessing as any other member of the public would.

> 2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up. Is Windows 10 still being used in
> your enterprises? If so, are people just planning to pay for
> support from Microsoft?

My enterprise is, indeed, still using Windows 10 (for between 30% and
50% of all computers).

We are planning to migrate away from it, to Windows 11, in the near
future. We haven't yet done so partly because of upgrade-timing
disruption-of-work concerns, and partly because of roadblocks
encountered in arranging the upgrade process to run automatically and
smoothly.

We certainly are not planning to pay for extended support, at least not
that I've heard anything about.

> 3. Are most folks on this list choosing to disable telemetry?
> We're wondering how skewed our enterprise numbers are.

I honestly do not remember what we have set on this front. I will plan
to check when I am next in a position to do so.

> 4. Do most folks install and use the maintenance service to update
> Firefox or just simply not install it? We're considering removing
> the policy to disable the maintenance service since if you don't
> want to use it, you would probably just not install it.

We install with the maintenance service disabled, because we do not want
certain types of upgrade to happen without our having tested and
approved them first, we don't know of a way to limit the service to
doing *only* the upgrades that we have approved (or at least not one
that we could really make use of), and if it's not going to be doing
anything then having it present would just be taking up resources.

The upgrade behavior we actually *want* (insofar as I'm aware) is to:

* Automatically upgrade to the next release within an ESR, without the
user being prompted or necessarily even notified, but

* Not automatically upgrade from one ESR to another until we approve
that upgrade to happen, and

* When we do approve that upgrade to happen, have it go through in the
same seamless no-prompt maybe-even-no-notification manner as the other
upgrades.

(Even upgrading automatically within an ESR is a bit iffy, because of
the risk of regression bugs being introduced by such an upgrade, but in
practice they're rare enough - and, IIRC, quickly-enough fixed - that it
would not be expected to be an issue.)

- From what I understand, the only way provided that would let us achieve
that would require us to run an internal Web server and host update
files (and possibly other things) there. We could host such things on an
internal file server, but not (or at least not readily and without much
overhead) on a Web server, so I haven't even pursued that angle.

What we end up doing in practice is deploying one ESR point release,
then not upgrading Firefox until sometime in the next ESR major release,
unless a specific fix in a newer point release of the ESR we already
deploy turns out to be something we need. That's not optimal, but it
seems to be where we've landed.

> Anyway, appreciate a discussion on any or all of these topics.

I'm glad to see this sort of thing solicited!

- --
Andrew J. Buehler
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[Julien Cristau]

Do you know about https://mozilla.github.io/policy-templates/#appupdatepin?  I believe that would achieve what you describe (at least as far as version selection, I don't know about the prompts/notifications). I.e. setting AppUpdatePin to `128.` now, and updating it to the next branch when you're ready to roll that out.

Cheers,

Julien

[Marco Gaiarin]

Mandi! 'Mike Kaply' via enter...@mozilla.org
In chel di` si favelave...

> 1. Right now, if a page has PDFs embedded (example), and you have a default PDF
> reader set other than Firefox, we launch your PDF reader. This makes for kind
> of a clunky experience because you now have a page with blank areas on it.
> We're considering using the built-in Firefox PDF viewer in those cases, even if
> you have a default viewer set for when you download PDFs. I'm wondering what
> folks think about that? How common is the embedded PDF case in enterprises?

...because Microsoft have leaved totally to user the 'file association'
things, i've totally stopped to (try to) manage file association and file
open priority.

It happens to have users that use FF and have Edge as PDF application. ;(

> 2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up. Is Windows 10 still being used in your
> enterprises? If so, are people just planning to pay for support from Microsoft?

No, we will not pay; still trying to migrate out from some residual Win7
box, so...

> 3. Are most folks on this list choosing to disable telemetry? We're wondering
> how skewed our enterprise numbers are.

Do you mean:

pref("toolkit.telemetry.enabled", false);
pref("toolkit.telemetry.prompted", 2);
pref("toolkit.telemetry.rejected", true);
pref("toolkit.telemetry.reportingpolicy.firstRun", false);

?! In corporate environment i try to disable telemetry whenever i can,
anyway, as a paranoyd measure.

> 4. Do most folks install and use the maintenance service to update Firefox or
> just simply not install it? We're considering removing the policy to disable
> the maintenance service since if you don't want to use it, you would probably
> just not install it.

I don't install it. I don't want user os 'things under the hood' to be able
to update the box. I do update. ;-)

--
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Associazione ``La Nostra Famiglia'' http://www.lanostrafamiglia.it/
Polo FVG - Via della Bontà, 7 - 33078 - San Vito al Tagliamento (PN)
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Dona il 5 PER MILLE a LA NOSTRA FAMIGLIA!
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(cf 00307430132, categoria ONLUS oppure RICERCA SANITARIA)

[Streich Colomeda, Dimas]

Hi Mike,

1. We have some internal wiki pages with embed PDF, but is not a common practice. I think it's better to use Firefox PDF viewer in these cases.

2. Our ~3000 PCs have Windows 10 installed yet, but we're planning the future update to Windows 11.

3. We're not disabling telemetry.

4. We install updates manually, using AppUpdateURL to provide a custom XML. I want to try the AppUpdatePin directive, it can be a good and easier solution.

Thx

Dimas Streich Colomeda
Unitat de Tecnologies de la Informació i Comunicació

Departament de Salut | Generalitat de Catalunya
Av.França s/n | 17007 Girona 
dstreich....@gencat.cat | http://www.hospitaltrueta.cat
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Aquest missatge s'adreça exclusivament a la persona destinatària i pot contenir informació privilegiada o confidencial. Si no sou la persona destinatària indicada, us recordem que la utilització, divulgació i/o còpia sense autorització està prohibida en virtut de la legislació vigent. Si heu rebut aquest missatge per error, us demanem que ens ho feu saber immediatament per aquesta via i que el destruïu.

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[Teemu Pölkki]

> 1. PDF

Embedded PDFs are quite common in our case. Edge is our default reader so the PDFs stay within Firefox. Thats the preferred workflow.

> 2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up. Is Windows 10 still being used in your enterprises? If so, are people just planning to pay for support from Microsoft?

Upgrading thousands of machines to Win 11 near the EOL.

> 3. Are most folks on this list choosing to disable telemetry? We're wondering how skewed our enterprise numbers are.

DisableAppUpdate = true, DisableTelemetry = true, DisableFirefoxStudies = true, DisableFirefoxAccounts = true, DisableFeedbackCommands = true

> 4. Do most folks install and use the maintenance service to update Firefox or just simply not install it? We're considering removing the policy to disable the maintenance service since if you don't want to use it, you would probably just not install it.

Haven't set the policy, its not installed and we manage updates via SCCM.

[Streich Colomeda, Dimas]

Hi Julien,

Do you know about https://mozilla.github.io/policy-templates/#appupdatepin?  I believe that would achieve what you describe (at least as far as version selection, I don't know about the prompts/notifications). I.e. setting AppUpdatePin to `128.` now, and updating it to the next branch when you're ready to roll that out.

And how Firefox knows that we only want ESR updates? I mean, if I set AppUpdatePin to "128.", it won't update to the 135 release version?

Thx

Dimas Streich Colomeda
Unitat de Tecnologies de la Informació i Comunicació

Departament de Salut | Generalitat de Catalunya
Av.França s/n | 17007 Girona 
dstreich....@gencat.cat | http://www.hospitaltrueta.cat
Instagram | Twitter | YouTube | LinkedIn

Aquest missatge s'adreça exclusivament a la persona destinatària i pot contenir informació privilegiada o confidencial. Si no sou la persona destinatària indicada, us recordem que la utilització, divulgació i/o còpia sense autorització està prohibida en virtut de la legislació vigent. Si heu rebut aquest missatge per error, us demanem que ens ho feu saber immediatament per aquesta via i que el destruïu.

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[Thane K. Sherrington]

Hi Mike,
    Thanks for the opportunity to comment.  I support a wide range of clients - from residential users up to 50 person organizations. 

Embedded PDFs - I haven't seen that, but I can see your point.  I'm in the process of testing Firefox as the PDF reader and moving away from Adobe anyway, so I can't see an issue with doing embedded in Firefox viewer.

Windows 10 EOL - It's going to be a mixed bag for me - I suspect a lot of smaller clients will stick with 10 until computers are replaced (and to be honest, with a good security solution and using Firefox, I don't think the security is a massive deal).  Some will switch.  I hope Firefox keeps supporting 10 like they did with 7 (which was about 4 years passed the MS EOL).

We leave telemetry on unless the client asks us to disable it.  Most people are disabling.

Maintenance service to update Firefox - depends on the situation.  On managed clients, we handle the updates manually and disable the service.  Non-managed is left on. 

Thane K. Sherrington

Computer Connection, Ltd. ...taking the mystery out of computers since 1982.
Winner of the 2012 Ian Spencer - Excellence in Business Award
Thanks for making us the Reader's Choice Best Computer Store in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019!
95 College St.
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[Andrew C Aitchison]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2025, 'Mike Kaply' via enter...@mozilla.org wrote:

> We've had a few things come up internally, and since y'all are my goto for
> getting enterprise feedback, I'd appreciate any input you have on these
> three questions that are completely unrelated to each other. Feel free to
> just respond to one or two if that's all you have feedback on.
>
> 1. Right now, if a page has PDFs embedded (example

> <https://pdfobject.com/examples/embed-multiple-PDFs.html>), and you have a

> default PDF reader set other than Firefox, we launch your PDF reader. This
> makes for kind of a clunky experience because you now have a page with
> blank areas on it. We're considering using the built-in Firefox PDF viewer
> in those cases, even if you have a default viewer set for when you download
> PDFs. I'm wondering what folks think about that? How common is the embedded
> PDF case in enterprises?

I've not come across web-embedded PDFs before.
I see that Chrome and Edge also shows these.

I don't have a PDF with embedded javascript to test with,
but the idea of nested embeddings worries me.
It would be easy to miscode a bug allowing a vulnerability to slip in
and very difficult to determine whether the embeddings are correctly
disabled to be sure that any such bugs are not exposed when the feature
is not needed. I'm tempted to ask that the PDF settings menus
could be accessed before the PDF(s) is/are displayed
- I may want different security settings for embedded PDFs from
my default for stand-alone PDF documents.

The example you give makes an interesting impression, but with two large
multi-page documents, I would want to be able to re-size the embedding
windows, so that I can meaningfully see and compare the documents.
Yes it is cool to be able to compare two PDFs in a single web page,
but I think I would be more likely to use stand-alone tool such as
diffpdf.

Bottom line: if my default is an external PDF viewer,
I want to have to click something, part of the page, not a pop-up,
to say "yes, use the builtin pdf viewer".

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk

[Osdoba, Sascha]

Hi Mike,

1. we dont use embedded PDF but if we would I would expect that it should be shown in the browser
2. we use Windows 10 LTSC on about 3500 Windows clients so we will get security updates until 2029 - I hope that Firefox will still run on Win 10 until 2029
3. yes we disable telemetry
4. we use maintenance service to get Firefox and Thunderbird minor updates (Thunderbird updates are not that reliable as Firefox updates)
we use Firefox ESR and I am too lazy to package every new FF & TB version to deploy it via SCCM
major updates will be tested before deploying via SCCM

Regards,

Sascha

Von: 'Mike Kaply' via enter...@mozilla.org <enter...@mozilla.org>
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Februar 2025 17:05
An: Mozilla.org <enter...@mozilla.org>
Betreff: [Mozilla Enterprise] Looking for feedback on PDFs, Windows 10 , Telemetry, Maintenance Service

We've had a few things come up internally, and since y'all are my goto for getting enterprise feedback, I'd appreciate any input you have on these three questions that are completely unrelated to each other. Feel free to just respond to one or two if that's all you have feedback on.

1. Right now, if a page has PDFs embedded (https://pdfobject.com/examples/embed-multiple-PDFs.html), and you have a default PDF reader set other than Firefox, we launch your PDF reader. This makes for kind of a clunky experience because you now have a page with blank areas on it. We're considering using the built-in Firefox PDF viewer in those cases, even if you have a default viewer set for when you download PDFs. I'm wondering what folks think about that? How common is the embedded PDF case in enterprises?

2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up. Is Windows 10 still being used in your enterprises? If so, are people just planning to pay for support from Microsoft?

3. Are most folks on this list choosing to disable telemetry? We're wondering how skewed our enterprise numbers are.

4. Do most folks install and use the maintenance service to update Firefox or just simply not install it? We're considering removing the policy to disable the maintenance service since if you don't want to use it, you would probably just not install it.

Anyway, appreciate a discussion on any or all of these topics.

--
Mike Kaply
Technical Partner Lead
Mozilla Corporation

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[Kahle, Markus]

Hi Mike,

We've had a few things come up internally, and since y'all are my goto for getting enterprise feedback, I'd appreciate any input you have on these three questions that are completely unrelated to each other. Feel free to just respond to one or two if that's all you have feedback on.

1. Right now, if a page has PDFs embedded (example), and you have a default PDF reader set other than Firefox, we launch your PDF reader. This makes for kind of a clunky experience because you now have a page with blank areas on it. We're considering using the built-in Firefox PDF viewer in those cases, even if you have a default viewer set for when you download PDFs. I'm wondering what folks think about that? How common is the embedded PDF case in enterprises?

We currently have disabled internal PDF reader, because of concerns and some rare individual cases where those internal PDF viewers didn't render the entire PDF right.

There were missing parts, which lead to some upset and anger and the decision to only use the "offical" Adobe PDF reader for all PDF documents.

I can't speak especially about those inline PDF documents, because I really can't remember came across thoses documents (maybe because we have disabled internal reader).

2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up. Is Windows 10 still being used in your enterprises? If so, are people just planning to pay for support from Microsoft?

We are currently in full transition to Windows 11 and try to not snatch target end-of-support date 14th October 2025.

So we are not planning or willing to pay for extended support from Microsoft.

3. Are most folks on this list choosing to disable telemetry? We're wondering how skewed our enterprise numbers are.

We are disabling all telemetry settings on all products as far as we are able to.

In case of Windows we additionally tried to help with some external hints and products ;)

4. Do most folks install and use the maintenance service to update Firefox or just simply not install it? We're considering removing the policy to disable the maintenance service since if you don't want to use it, you would probably just not install it.

We have disabled installing maintenance service via .mst file since using ESR version, because we got our own central software deployment service and Firefox gets updated via this service too.

Nevertheless should there be always the option to not install the maintenance service, no matter if installing ESR version or the standard version of firefox.

Regards,

Markus

[Tiago Marques Delboni]

Hi!

1. Very uncommon, but we would expect them to be displayed on the web page.

2. 92% of our workstations run W10, we're slowly transitioning to W11 and will not pay for W10's extended support.

3. Yes, it is disabled.

4. We do not install the Maintenance Service.

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[Jiri Eischmann]

'Mike Kaply' via enter...@mozilla.org píše v pá 28. 02. 2025 v 11:05
-0500:

> We've had a few things come up internally, and since y'all are my
> goto for getting enterprise feedback, I'd appreciate any input you
> have on these three questions that are completely unrelated to each
> other. Feel free to just respond to one or two if that's all you have
> feedback on.
>
> 1. Right now, if a page has PDFs embedded (example), and you have a
> default PDF reader set other than Firefox, we launch your PDF reader.
> This makes for kind of a clunky experience because you now have a
> page with blank areas on it. We're considering using the built-in
> Firefox PDF viewer in those cases, even if you have a default viewer
> set for when you download PDFs. I'm wondering what folks think about
> that? How common is the embedded PDF case in enterprises?
>
> 2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up. Is Windows 10 still being used in
> your enterprises? If so, are people just planning to pay for support
> from Microsoft?
>
> 3. Are most folks on this list choosing to disable telemetry? We're
> wondering how skewed our enterprise numbers are.

We do disable telemetry for Firefox in Red Hat Enterprise Linux. I
suppose it's also disabled in all RHEL clones.

Jiri

> 4. Do most folks install and use the maintenance service to update
> Firefox or just simply not install it? We're considering removing the
> policy to disable the maintenance service since if you don't want to
> use it, you would probably just not install it.
>
> Anyway, appreciate a discussion on any or all of these topics.
>
> --
> Mike Kaply
> Technical Partner Lead
> Mozilla Corporation

[Robert Marcano]

On 2/28/25 12:05 PM, 'Mike Kaply' via enter...@mozilla.org wrote:
> We've had a few things come up internally, and since y'all are my goto
> for getting enterprise feedback, I'd appreciate any input you have on
> these three questions that are completely unrelated to each other. Feel
> free to just respond to one or two if that's all you have feedback on.
>

> 1. Right now, if a page has PDFs embedded (example <https://
> pdfobject.com/examples/embed-multiple-PDFs.html>), and you have a

> default PDF reader set other than Firefox, we launch your PDF reader.
> This makes for kind of a clunky experience because you now have a page
> with blank areas on it. We're considering using the built-in Firefox PDF
> viewer in those cases, even if you have a default viewer set for when
> you download PDFs. I'm wondering what folks think about that? How common
> is the embedded PDF case in enterprises?

As a business application developer, we usually use that kind of iframe
PDF embedding in situations when you want to get notified when the user
finishes using up the PDF, in order to guide the business process to the
next step, There is no way to be notified of a tab with a PDF being
closed. When the PDF to display is and end result with no additional
tasks to do, we open a new tab.

We use the pdfViewerEnabled API [1] to detect when businesses force some
external PDF viewer in order to avoid having these blank areas.

[1]
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/pdfViewerEnabled

>
> 2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up. Is Windows 10 still being used in your
> enterprises? If so, are people just planning to pay for support from
> Microsoft?

This is an important topic because no matter how you ask your customers
to use supported OSs, they end up always having workstations that for
some reason need to stay on older versions, and not surprising, without
extended support.

Recently Rust removed Windows 7 from Tier 1, and we ere forced to use
some old versions of the compiler for a few more months because there
were some of our customers using Windows 7, even when we explicitly told
them years ago that we ended support to, but weren't intentionally
blocking it, only saying if it breaks, don't call us.

>
> 3. Are most folks on this list choosing to disable telemetry? We're
> wondering how skewed our enterprise numbers are.
>
> 4. Do most folks install and use the maintenance service to update
> Firefox or just simply not install it? We're considering removing the
> policy to disable the maintenance service since if you don't want to use
> it, you would probably just not install it.
>
> Anyway, appreciate a discussion on any or all of these topics.
>
> --
> Mike Kaply
> Technical Partner Lead
> Mozilla Corporation
>

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[Olaf Menkens]

Hi Mike,

we use Firefox ESR in a german research institute (approx. 400 users) as recommended browser.

1.

until yesterday I have never seen the embedded PDF feature. But then I had to use SAP / concur for our business trip expense report.

Here, the uploaded PDF is shown embedded to help filling in more information.

It was extremely annoying that my firefox opened a new Acrobat Reader each time, I changed anything in the form. So I finally switched back to Firefox PDF viewer to solve this problem. But with that, I cannot fill in / sign some forms appropriately, so I would really appreciate, if the Firefox PDF viewer could always be used for embedded PDFs.

2.

We plan to migrate to Windows 11, but I'm not sure, if this process will be finished in time.

3.

telemetry is disabled here by default.

4.

currently, we are using the maintenance service for automatic updates, as we have no time to implement other alternatives :-)

O.M.

[Klaus Hartnegg]

Am 28.02.2025 um 17:05 schrieb 'Mike Kaply' via enter...@mozilla.org:
> 2. Windows 10 EOL is coming up.

Windows 10 LTSC has support until January 2029.
Is nobody using that?

[Osdoba, Sascha]

we do but
only Windows 10 1809 LTSC has support until Jan 2029
Windows 10 2109 aka 21H2 LTSC has support until Jan 2027



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: enter...@mozilla.org <enter...@mozilla.org> Im Auftrag von Klaus Hartnegg
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. April 2025 13:47
An: Mozilla.org <enter...@mozilla.org>
Betreff: Re: [Mozilla Enterprise] Win10 LTSC support until 2029

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