Language for proposal for Standing Seconds

[Secretary LNC]

Once again, I am submitting for comment prior to formal proposal

RULE 2: VOTING PROCEDURE AND MOTIONS

1.     On all matters, except the retention of platform planks, the election of Judicial Committee members, Party officers and at-large members of the National Committee, and the nomination of Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates, voting will be by either voice vote or rising vote.  If any delegate objects to the Chair's ruling on the outcome of a voice vote, a rising vote shall be conducted. If 20 or more delegates object to the Chair's ruling on the outcome of a rising vote, a counted vote will be held.

2. The Chair may require any motion offered from the convention floor to be in writing, signed by the mover and submitted to the Secretary.
3. All original main motions and adhering amendments originating from the floor must receive a standing second in which 20 delegates rise and stand as seconds to the motion.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Ken Moellman]

I've always thought this should be a mathematical formula as a percentage of the body.  When some of the number in bylaws and rules were set, it was prior to 2016 when we didn't have fully packed convention delegations.  I was at the 2006 convention which had super-low attendance.  Why not 5% or 10% of the delegates?  If 10% don't even want to consider the amendment, does it have a snowball's chance in Hades of passing?

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Ken C. Moellman, Jr.

Executive Director

Libertarian Party of Kentucky

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Committee members, download the Proposal Form here: https://tinyurl.com/2024Bylaws-SubmissionForm
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[Secretary LNC]

That's not a time saver.  A definite easily discernible number is a time saver.

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[Ken Moellman]

If the percentage is set just like quorum, etc., it's not hard.  Just an update to the credential report.  10% is X, majority is Y, 2/3rds is Z.... 

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Ken C. Moellman, Jr.

Executive Director

Libertarian Party of Kentucky

[Secretary LNC]

It requires counting and will not save time.  

[Secretary LNC]

And I will note that our credentials report is not correct.  The inclusion of numbers like 2/3 has no place there because 2/3 of all delegates is a meaningless number.   A 2/3 vote is not of all registered delegates but of those present and voting which will be less than that number.  It just confuses people to report that.  And 10% of registered delegates then turns out to be MORE than 10% of those present.  And will require frequent counts and would be a nightmare.

The only numbers that should be included in the credentials report is a majority of the entire membership (not just saying "a majority") and 7/8 because those are the ONLY ones that would be based on registered delegates.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Sylvia Arrowwood]

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From: "Ken Moellman" <ken.mo...@lpky.org>
To: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
Cc: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 7:22:31 PM
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Language for proposal for Standing Seconds

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/307b9141b70b87b28d1ae7a1740eb24e%40lpky.org.

[Secretary LNC]

Ms. Arrowwood there is no text in your email.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/457984769.6433931.1673671803091.JavaMail.zimbra%40homesc.com.

[Tom Rowlette]

I personally prefer a solid number for simplicity (I liked 25), but my guess is that the delegates will want it to be a set percentage.  I also think that we can use a percentage of the same numbers that are used to determine a quorum at the beginning of the day, like Ken suggested.

But I think it should be a fairly low percentage.  If what we're looking for is about 20 or 25 people, and the average convention has about 1000 delegates, we should say maybe 2%.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9Wnuiqr5W166Sr8Aa8riQ1sm-Nid3g-rViH7XzFc545n5w%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

Here is the proposal form 

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CA%2B6WXgV4Ctc0-n6Up-6Hgv6WQbOY0DYYctATsNb6inivGckJFA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dean Rodgers]

I support a set number for a rising second.  If we really want to limit frivolity, make it 50—or at least some amount larger than the largest single delegation.

 

There has been confusion at conventions sorting out the exact delegate count and shifting counts through the week.  A percentage of that will also, therefore, be a shifting number.

A set number for a rising second allows certainty for the chair, the body and certainty for the person making the motion if they want to properly organize the seconding of their motion in advance.

 

From: Secretary LNC
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2023 11:23 PM
To: bylaws-com...@lp.org
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Language for proposal for Standing Seconds

 

Here is the proposal form 

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

 

On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 1:57 PM Tom Rowlette <trow...@gmail.com> wrote:

I personally prefer a solid number for simplicity (I liked 25), but my guess is that the delegates will want it to be a set percentage.  I also think that we can use a percentage of the same numbers that are used to determine a quorum at the beginning of the day, like Ken suggested.

 

But I think it should be a fairly low percentage.  If what we're looking for is about 20 or 25 people, and the average convention has about 1000 delegates, we should say maybe 2%.

 

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 10:56 PM Secretary LNC <secr...@lp.org> wrote:

Ms. Arrowwood there is no text in your email.

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:50 PM Sylvia Arrowwood <sarro...@homesc.com> wrote:

 

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WkdJvY4ZvFj8Hj7GJKCB_VC4r4FPLKpjAoiNxHVufX6Ag%40mail.gmail.com.

 

[Secretary LNC]

I am moving at 25 as I think that more likely to pass and future conventions can amend if it doesn't seem to do what it was intended, but of course my proposal can be amended when we consider it.  I agree with you Mr. Rodgers on the need for a set number.  Pragmatically, I don't think a percentage would pass either.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/IA1PR10MB605230BEC6E0BB62B184795BD8C69%40IA1PR10MB6052.namprd10.prod.outlook.com.

[Sylvia Arrowwood]

Some states have much more than 50 Delegates such as

CA. TX.  Can't remember for sure but most likely our Chair

would know.

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From: "Dean Rodgers" <deancr...@hotmail.com>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:24:47 AM
Subject: RE: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Language for proposal for Standing Seconds

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/IA1PR10MB605230BEC6E0BB62B184795BD8C69%40IA1PR10MB6052.namprd10.prod.outlook.com.

[Secretary LNC]

Florida and Texas do as well.

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[Dean Rodgers]

With a standing second at 25, the large delegations will get their motions much more easily (working in-house among friends) seconded than will the smaller delegations, which will have to team up with individuals outside their affiliation.

 

Can it be argued that the ability to achieve a second should be just as easy/difficult for all?

 

From: Sylvia Arrowwood
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:37 AM
To: bylaws-committee-2024
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Language for proposal for Standing Seconds

 

 

Some states have much more than 50 Delegates such as

CA. TX.  Can't remember for sure but most likely our Chair

would know.

 

1.       The Chair may require any motion offered from the convention floor to be in writing, signed by the mover and submitted to the Secretary.

2.       All original main motions and adhering amendments originating from the floor must receive a standing second in which 20 delegates rise and stand as seconds to the motion.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/1363226070.12645362.1673973416780.JavaMail.zimbra%40homesc.com.

 

[Secretary LNC]

Delegations just don't work together in tandem like that.  Going from 1 to 50 is not likely to pass.  We are looking for better than now, it may not be the perfect, the key is better.

If I were a delegate I would not vote for 50.  I'd want to ease in a new procedure.  

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[Mike Seebeck]

I've been quietly observing the discussion on this.

I have concerns that requiring any number more than a single second would violate member rights to have something heard, at least in the pure sense. 

But the practical application on the convention floor is that usually most motions either get enough seconds or die from lack of a second.

Getting back to the original proposal, 20 is consistent with the other part of the rule. I could live with that as a compromise. A percentage is unworkable as has been discussed, and the number of seconds exceeding the 100+ delegation size of CA is impractical.

However, as worded, it would not apply to main motions to amend something previously adopted from the Credentials, Bylaws or Platform reports, or to their adhering amendments, just to main motions and amendments to them made from the floor.

Is that the intention?

If not, then the wording needs to reflect that the 20 seconds would apply to the reports motions as well.

That being said, I would also remind the committee that our job is not to develop proposals based on what would pass or not, but first and foremost what solves the problem presented. The delegates will sort it put from there.

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[Secretary LNC]

The intent is not to include reports sections.  Committee reports have been workshopped and are scheduled.  Their adhering amendments are sufficiently limited by the standing rules.

I disagree it is not our job to factor in what will pass.  That will always be part of my argument in Committee deliberations and was part of the argument I made in asking for my appointment from the LNC.

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[Mike Seebeck]

It's an argument that places politics over practicality.

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