[DbS] Brokedown Palace by Steven Brust [LONG!]
Thomas Yan
{see my recent post, "[DBS] Intro to Distracted by Shadows", for an
explanation of goals and formatting conventions.}
1986 Ace mass market paperback edition.
ppI-III. -"Teaser"-, "Ace Fantasy Books by Steven Brust", -"Title page"-
ppIV-VII. -"Credits"-, -"Dedication"-, -"blank page"-, "Acknowledgments"
ppIX-X. "A Note on Fenarian Pronunciation"
** pIX ** -"Fenarian = Hungarian"-
pXI. "Author's Note"
** pXI ** "The names Devera, Alfredo, and # Fenario, are *not* Fenarian"
{see also _The Phoenix Guards_, ch30, pp365-366}
ppXII-XIII. -"Map of Fenario"-
pp1-3. "Prologue: The Legend of Fenarr"
** {RASFW: Fenarr = Crionofenarr in _The Phoenix Guards_, ch30, pp365-366.}
** p1 ** "sun" {not "Furnace", as in the Vlad books -- due to translation?}
** {Easterners are *east* (`to the right') not *west* (`to the left')!}
** p2 ** "*taltos*" {?} ** {Fenarr's white horse is not explicitly named}
** pp2-3 ** "Sword # filled with the power of Faerie itself"
{actually, Morganti = Serioli/Elder/pre-Empire sorcery, not Orb-magic}
** p3 ** {Spoiler for _The Phoenix Guards_, ch30: Kav = Khaavren}
** {horse addresses Fenarr as "Master"}
** {horse talking does not match story in _The Phoenix Guards_, ch30}
** {that's one weird horse} {"Wyld Stallions" in "Bill and Ted" movies}
pp4-18. ch1: "The Horse"
** {faintly reminiscent of Zelazny's "Permafrost":
enumeration of items for consideration, with touches of present tense}
** p4 ** [hi River] ** [hi Miklos] -"at 11 (past) and 21 (present) years old"-
** p5 ** [hi Palace] ** [hi idol to Demon Goddess]
** {"Demon Goddess" -- never named as "Verra" in the book?}
** -"Palace in same place as <foo> <x> years ago:
hut 1000, fort 950, Old Palace 700, current 400"-
** -"Miklos' body is broken"- {yup, he is dying (p4)}
** pp5-6 ** [hi Palace interior]
** [hi tunnels] -"from Northmen invasion 300 years ago, now wine cellars
-- hence quality of Fenarian wine"-
** p6 ** -"brother Laszlo is 10 years older than Miklos"-
** {Brokedown Palace != any Dragaeran Palace}
** p7 ** [hi city Fenario] -"population = 5000+"- {reasonable?}
** -"Palace has 6 towers"-
** p8 ** -"brothers Andor & Vilmos are resp. 6 & 3 years older than Miklos"-
** "Overcast [in Vlad books]" = "The Hand of Faerie"
** {Overcast: related to mist = energy-conduit in _500 Years After_?}
** "Dark Times" {?} ** -"West wing collapses when Miklos is 6"-
** pp9-10 ** [horse breeds] "*lovasag*", "*munkas*", "*repulo*"
** p10 ** "a {*a*, not *the*} *taltos* horse", "Bolcseseg" aka "Bolk"
** {Hungarian: "bolcses(s)eg" = "wisdom", so why tricky for a Fenarian?}
** p11 ** "Laszlo did it" [freaked out at criticism of the Palace's state]
** p12 ** -"Bolk had `no part' in healing Miklos and mending his clothes"-
** [who found whom?] {mutual find?}
** {Bolk mysterious/cryptic but polite; addresses Miklos as "master";
fond of saying "who can say" and later (soon?) also
"you will (understand/know)" and "pay no mind"}
** pp12-13 ** -"not Demon Goddess, but the River"-
** p13 ** -"Bolk must reject"- {*can* not or *will* not accept?}
** "I [Bolk] am old [,] from another age.
Once I was stronger than the power of Faerie {does he mean Verra?}.
Now it is stronger than I. Perhaps someday #"
** {Bolk = horse in Legend of Fenarr?} [memories != legends, all things change]
{Did Bolk die? If so, how survive -- simultaneous manifestation?
What god-like powers to Bolk use in this book and where does he use them?}
** p14 ** "what will you do with what you have learned?" {?}
** "no hurry" {?} **{[Overcast = "Hand" again}
** p15 ** "checkered pattern on # bacon"{[why? better fire access?}
** p16 ** "I [Bolk] am fed by # use [and] cannot lie"{[true?}
** p17 ** [hi Devera!] "[I am s]ort of [from Faerie.] #
I have a...friend{[Vlad?},
who said I should go to # Fenario # to learn #
well, I'm not supposed to say. # I'm probably early #"
** -"Miklos thinks Devera talks like Bolk"-
** -"Devera does or pretends to not recognize `*taltos*' and `Bolk'"-
** -"Miklos sees a palace in Devera's eyes"- {?}
p19. "Interlude" [in Miklos' old chamber]
** p19 ** -"Laszlo dream: Demon Goddess {?} warns him of Miklos"-
pp20-34. ch2: "The King"
** p20 ** {apparently something reminded me of Zelazny's _Isle of the Dead_,
but my notes didn't say what and now I don't remember}
** -"2 years have passed"-
** -"anatomical analogy for Palace; Miklos' room = womb"-
** p21 ** -"descriptions of 3 brothers; Laszlo fears Vilmos{[rightly so!}"-
** p22 ** -"distant forebear: King Gellert I"- ** [hi sword Allam!]
** [bullrider sculpture] -"Laszlo has 1 POV"-
{who is rider? "*taltos*" *bull*?}
** {typo?} "mentally saluted it. {"." --> ","?} then continued through"
** pp22-23 ** [hi advisor Rezso!]
** p23 ** {walking = "waddle" euphemism? heh, wash feet more often}
** [Count Eszakimezo and his crop] {parallels between Tortaalik & Laszlo?}
** "father mentions" {present tense --> therefore, still alive} ** "reavers"?
** p24 ** -"Rezso recognizes filler/snow words"-
** -"Rezso's expressive throat-clears"- {shrugs, etc. in _The Phoenix Guards_}
** -"Northmen threats 150, and 150+75=225 years ago"-
** p25 ** {dragon = Devera?}
** -"Laszlo is 33. Many die at 40? Rezso is 60?."- {?}
** p26 ** [Count Mordfal, galena mines, and daughter mentioned]
** pp26-27 ** [hi 23 year old Viktor, captain of Palace Guards!]
** p28 ** -"Viktor sets up Laszlo on date with his current lover's friend"-
** p29 ** [Sandor mentioned] -"Andor planting flowers"-
** pp30-31 ** [hi old King Janos VI and his Queen Terez!]
** {is "Janos" related to "Janus"?
if so, which are the 2 directions that he looks -- past and future?}
** p31 ** -"why thoughts turn to Miklos?"- {yes, why?} -"Laszlo regrets"-
** [hi long-lived wizard {meaning what?} Sandor!]
"fixture # since before Laszo's grandfather's time"
** p32 ** -"Sandor's long life and power is from power of Faerie;
might have a spell to defeat a dragon"-
** [Andor "flits" and] "heard only what he wanted to hear"
** p33 ** -"Vilmos distrusts Sandor and appears a bit stupid"-
** -"Laszlo meets Brigitta, the date set up by Viktor"-
pp35-37. "Interlude"
** pp35-37
** -"Mozes {Moses?} wins King's daughter Rozsa {Rocza?} with 3 {?} feats"-
** -"helped by a mother cow {?} (with horns in those days {?})"-
** -"helped by Rozsa herself, who invokes Demon Goddess"-
** -"Goddess: 3 different guises {?}, 3 kinds of bird flocks {?}"-
** "if they haven't since died, they are still alive to this day"
** {each of *3* things = each of *3* surviving or non-Miklos Princes?}
pp38-51. ch3: "The Dragon"
** p39 ** "Pathway in his mind [to the Power of Faerie]"
** "yellow jerkin, green tunic, brown leggings" {colors mean what?}
** -"still has boots"-
** p40 ** -"big leaps"- {recall dude with wrong boots in _Issola_, ch8, p120}
** p42 ** {master in Faerie?} -"safe from, probably not even consider pursuit"-
** p43 ** -"Baron owned 10 times as much land as Laszlo; could teleport!"-
** p41, p43 ** {dream from Bolk or other god(s)?}
** p44 ** -"dragon tentacles = sense organs"-
{Oankali tentacles in Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy, _Lilith's Brood_}
** p45
** -"athyra pyschics: for hunt-&hiding; silly to use against dragons"-
{metaphor/foreshadowing of events in the book?}
** p46
** -"dzur: black, (death) wail {panther?}"- {why not use Power against?}
** p47 ** [to use Power] "rigid paths and strict logic"
{similar to programming? biofeedback?}
** p48 ** [hi Vilmos!]
** pp50-51
** [bye dragon!] {probably not Devera} [apparently no norska eating corpse]
p52. "Interlude"
** p52 ** -"blood = catalyst"- ** "like a seed" {implies, not quite a seed}
** "a thing in the Palace, built into its very structure from the beginning"
{which beginning? new Palace 400 years ago, not hut 1000 years ago?}
** "carried on a log # from Wandering Forest" ** "River"
** "very nature of the Palace itself"
** {if planned, more impressive than the Jenoine plans
we've been allowed to see in _Issola_!}
pp53-66. ch4: "The Splinter"
** p53 ** {chapter title/imagery: "Splinter" means or refers to what?}
** {heh, at least unlike Miles (in ACC or K),
Andor did not uncover flowers to see how much they had grown}
** p54
** [Andor] -"search for surrogate-Nurse, think bullrider sculpture is silly"-
{sees what he wants to see? sees reflection of himself?}
** p56
** "[The Demon Goddess] is the living embodiment of the Power of Faerie.
That is why we worship her."
** -"Andor hears what he wants to hear: worship Goddess = new Purpose"-
{poor, well-meaning but misguided idiot!}
** {"intrados" = interior curve of an arch}
** p59 ** -"spell failed since near water"- {RASFW: or near *River*?}
** {I agree with Laszlo} "Sandor, you are a fool"
** "Sandor [looked] at the king; his expression" {presumably his=Sandor!=King}
** -"Laszlo flushes!"-
** pp59-61 ** [Andor -- dream from Goddess, gets another splinter] {uh oh!}
"aid and protect Laszlo", "Trust your heart"
** p63 ** [Marshal Henrik mentioned]
** -"Andor {not totally clueless, but a jerk}
knows not to use position to get Juliska but did such things in the past"-
** p64 ** [horse breeds, again]
** -"Countess/Mariska resembles Viktor"- {how/why? young, power-hungry? kin?}
** p65 ** "rose from her curtsy" {why not "courtesy"?}
pp67-69. "Interlude"
** pp67-69
** -"1st son too cowardly becomes a cock"- {cock -- cowardly or rash?}
** -"2nd too rash becomes a teckla"- {teckla -- rash or cowardly?}
** -"3rd just right kills old hag = beautiful lady = Goddess, who rewards him"-
** -"he takes only as much riches as needed"- {right balance, again}
** "if they have not {no "since"!} died, they are still alive to this day"
** {each of these *3* brother = each of *3* surviving or non-Miklos Princes?}
pp70-83. ch5: "The Coachman"
** p72 ** [hi coachman Miska!]
** "*garaboncias*" {?} [Miklos:] -"well, yes, traveled far away and returned"-
** "strange {why?} *garaboncias* [to] speak of the Demon Goddess"
** p73 ** "*palinka*" {?} ** "irony" ** [definition of] "coachman's tale"
** "norska in a chreotha's net" {?}
** p74 ** "one of the Goddess's demons" {?}
** -"Goddess speaks to royal Fenarian family by dreams"-
{anyone in family, not just youngest son}
** [backtrack] pp73-74 ** {tale -- point?}
** -"Northerner kills a jeweler while wooing a Fenarian beauty"-
** [Fenarian Prince] -"take Allam from King's bedchamber, ride *taltos* bull"-
{Prince = rider, Bolk = bull in sculpture?}
** [Prince] -"kill Northerner, betrayed by beauty, fights way home, executed:
Allam only for the King"-
** -"The beauty marries a demon"- {Brigitta's parents?}
** p75 ** {when did Miklos lose his boots?}
** p76 ** {(of staircase) "curve" versus "wind"?}
** p77 ** -"palace in Brigitta's eyes"- {why? as in Devera's!}
** -"Brigitta is from marshes, county of Nagylab, mother died last winter"-
** "by the demons" {new-to-me curse}
** p78 ** -"Demon Goddess woke up Laszlo in a dream"-
** p79 ** -"Laszlo again flips out; Viktor shows up"-
** p80 ** -"Andor, following Goddess, betrays Miklos"-
** p81 ** -"Laszlo retains grip on Allam-" {no Vlad-style-Morganti-reaction?}
** p83 ** -"Sandor paralyzes Miklos, who is wounded by Laszlo/Allam"-
{RASFW: Allam is not Morganti!} {Viktor is not around, misses unsheathing!}
** -"River, again"-
pp84-85. "Interlude"
** pp84-85 ** -"weed grows"- {weed in Tepper's _The Family Tree_}
pp86-89. ch6: "The Giant"
** pp86-99 ** -"Vilmos is very fond of his norska"-
** -"norska like/need a bit of fresh meat in their diet, including dragon"-
** -"Vilmos watches Laszlo eat like his norska Batya"-
** p88 ** -"Laszlo is the only one who asks, Miklos the only one who cares"-
** p91 ** -"Mariska looks in on norska"-
** p92 ** [Mariska of Laszlo] "strange"
** p93 ** [Mariska] "Perhaps Brigitta would understand"
** -"norska mostly eat dragons in the wild!"- ** "*lant*" {lyre? lute?}
** p4 ** {Brigitta vs Mariska} "solid" vs "frail", "weakness" vs "strength"
** pp94-95 ** -"mushrooms flourish among decay, including a dead tree {!}"-
** pp95-97 ** -"Laszlo almost flips out over Vilmos"-
** p97 ** "your -- your norska" {what was he about to say instead?}
** -"Laszlo falsely accuses Mariska of threatening the norska"-
** {significance of Mariska's fan?}
pp100-102. "Interlude"
** pp100-102 ** "I" {random story-teller? someone important?}
** -"tree with silver as a lure to allow witches to suck souls"-
** [backtrack] p100 ** "Peter" {?} ** "mines of Bajfold" {?}
** "*palinka*" [again] ** "stephenite" {?}
** p101 ** "demon" {sounds like standard *Earth*/Christian-style demon}
pp103-115. ch7: "The Meeting"
** p103 ** -"songbirds instead of jhereg"-
{like different birds in tale of Demon Goddess hag and Mozses and Rozsa?}
** "Things repeat # but # are never the same."
** p104 ** [hi Bolk!] "not how you could hurt me" ** [Bolk] "was a bull"
** [anatomical analogy to Palace again] "deadly insult" "no rational reason"
** p106 ** [hi Brigitta!] {one "meeting"}
** p107 ** "curtsy" {hm, does verb form have an e: "courtesy"?}
** -"we see that not everyone hears the same thing from Bolk"-
** p108 ** [hi Andor and Sandor!] {another "meeting"}
** "no shame # says a great deal to me [Sandor] # "
** p109 ** "no shame in being the King's whore #
It says a great deal about you [Sandor] #"
** p110 ** -"Bolk spins and kicks"- {Nessus in Niven's _Ringworld_}
** p111 ** "no two people # are the same # not everyone listens to me"
** p112 ** [Bolk and Power of Faerie are {alien} powers]
"it is rare that [they] can hurt each other"
** -"the Power is not a manifestation of the Demon Goddess, but"-
"The Demon Goddess is a {"a", not "the"? is there more than one?}
manifestation of the power {why not *P*ower?} of Faerie."
** p113 ** -"who/how fight against whom? must drop old before pick new"- {!}
** {really, "whore"?}
** p115
** "I [Bolk] cannot conceive of what it [Tree] might be,
but I am certain it is important."
** {unlikely: perhaps Bolk does have a good idea of what it is (capable of)
and yet is still ignorant of its essense (its inner workings)}
** [Miklos thinks] "next time the River sends me this way, I will be dead."
p116. "Interlude"
** p116 ** -"Tree continues to grow; now recognizable as a tree"-
pp117-134. ch8: "The Captain"
** p117
** "He [Viktor] had only seen it [Allam] drawn 3 {?} times in his life"
** p118 ** [hi Karoly!]
** pp118-119 ** -"Viktor is afraid of the Tree"-
** [Viktor strikes Tree] "dull thud" with a "metallic" "overtone"
** p120 ** -"guard would gladly die for King,"-
"but the captain was their own personal god"
** [hi Tobias!]
** {thought: Vilmos is strong and reliable, but somewhat slow in thought}
{he is Gerard in Zelazny's original _Amber_ series, AICMFP}
** p121 ** [hi Laszlo and Rezso!]
** p122-123 ** -"Allam (4th time for Viktor): weak blow, 2 leaves fall"-
{from the shaking? cut off?}
"same dull sound, with the same faint, metallic overtone"
** p123 ** [hi Vilmos!] -"Viktor hides reaction"-
** p124 ** -"Sandor and Andor return without Miklos"-
** -"Viktor thinks about changing boots to change the sound of his tread"-
** -"Viktor ironically {!} thinks of Vilmos"-
"Odd, [o]ne might also believe he's been thinking."
** [Vilmos] -"unwilling to try to uproot the Tree, feels something for it"-
** p125 ** -"Viktor's world is coming apart"- ** [hi Brigitta!]
** p126 ** --"Mariska thought Brigitta might be seeking her"-
** [Mariska of the Tree] "it serves no purpose" ** [hi Sandor and Laszlo!]
** p127 ** [Brigitta of the Tree] "beautiful"
** p128 ** [Tree] -"River nourishes. Burn? Allam?"-
** p129 ** "What do you know of the sword?"
** "wish to consult with the Demon Goddess"
** pp129-130
** [coachman Miska tells Viktor another tale]
** "100 years ago # giants # every 4 or 5 generations #"
** -"strong enough to break, smart enough not to"-
** -"Viktor unable to see the point"- {also cannot comprehend the Tree}
** p130
** [hi Sandor!] "Too hot for Rezso # still trying to impress the Countess"
** p131 ** {Allam not Morganti, but makes Laszlo}
"fear his own blood lust" {Kin-slayer in Hodgell's Jaime books?}
** -"Viktor suggests to Sandor that he, Viktor, wield Allam"-
** p132 ** -"Sandor assumes a neutral position"-
** [Viktor thinks Laszlo unaware of Viktor's lineage]
"eldest son of King Vendel's daughter [, who]
was older than Gellert, Janos's father #" [and is] "Monika's son"
** [hi Mariska and Laszlo!]
** -"Goddess states opposition to the Tree"-
"She also said it wasn't a tree, but wouldn't say what it was"
{so what is it? maybe a god or demon?}
** p133 ** "Mariska's face turned red"
{Laszlo is an idiot! RASFW: Laszlo and Goddess mutually blind each other,
hence their mutual bizarre short-sightedness}
** {Allam is "silvery-gray" = shiny != dull gray of Morganti weapons}
** -"folklore says Allam was traded for Fenarr's body upon his death"-
** -"Allam, 5th time unsheath for Viktor"-
** -Fenarr's son ruled as King Joszef {?} I"-
** -"Joszef has a beserker fit upon drawing Allam"-
** "all kings of Fenario are granted a death-boon by the Goddess"
** -"Joszef asked for Allam to endure as long as the Goddess"-
"We are told {!} [she] replied, `It cannot be done.
The sword is destined to live longer than I."
** {In what sense does it live longer? literally *live*? merely *last*?
Both she and Bolk "die", so why can he but not her manifest in Fenario?}
** {did that use up Joszef's death-boon, or did he get another chance?}
** [backtracking] pp132-133
** [Sandor] "Have a care" -"dealing with Allam, etc.; but talking to Laszlo,"-
"Viktor knew that he ought to consider carefully before risking an answer,
yet the words came out of him before he could check them",
"[yes, he was] certain [he was] wise [in asking that Allam be used]"
** p134 ** -"Sandor is uncertain Allam should be applied to the Tree"-
** -"Laszlo flushes and apologies to Mariska"-
** -"Mariska perceptively observes that Miklos will return home"-
** -"Miklos's return is immediately announced"-
pp135-136. "Interlude"
{Butler's _Adulthood Rites_ has a sympathetic character named Margit(a)
--I.3, III.3-- and a city called Phoenix; apparently _Fool's Run_ was
still in print in 1988, sigh.}
** p135 ** "in the day's of your grandfather's grandfather's grandfather"
{figure of speech? if not, who is narrator? listener?}
** "Tividar the Renewer" {?} ** "Jani" {?} ** "Margit" {?}
** p136 ** "Pista" {?} ** "If you don't believe me, ask old Pista over there"
** [backtracking] pp135-136
** -"Margit dares Jani, who meets it, then leaves her"-
pp137-150. ch9: "The Homecoming"
** p137 ** -"blue sky"- {no orange overcast!}
** [Bolk to Miklos] -"stealth didn't work too well last time"-
** p139 ** -"old Queen good at painlessly removing splinters"- {"splinters"=?}
** pp140-141 ** [hi Miklos and Laszlo & Mariska -- well met!]
** p143 ** -"Andor speaks like an idiot again"-
** p144 ** [hi Juliska, and your assistant Mate (M'at'e)!]
** -"Sandwine {?} from near Mordfal {?}"-
** p145 ** [hi chef Ambrus the Fat!]
{cat's name, like Indiana Jones named himself after his dog?}
** -"Laszlo sees Vilmos watching Laszlo eat"-
** "Rozsanemes apple" {?} "eastern River Valley" {?} ** "honeycakes" {?}
** pp146-147 ** -"Miklos thinks of trying to see the Tree as beautiful"-
** -"Brigitta is beautiful"-
** p148 ** [hi Miska!]
** p149 ** -"Vilmos and Miklos pay a visit to Bolk"-
** -"Miklos thinks Bolk might disapprove of making up with Laszlo"-
** -"Miklos asks Bolk how to see the Tree as beautiful"-
** -"Vilmos says he can almost understand Bolk"- [Miklos] "Me, too" {heh}
** p150 ** -"Vilmos says Tree is determined, not beautiful"-
p151. "Interlude"
p151 ** -"Tree continues to grow"-
pp152-164. ch10: "The Wizard"
** p152 ** -"way back, Sandor went to Faerie"-
** p153 ** -"Sandor's {first? personal? original?} name is `Alfredo'"-
** {"Alfred" is not Fenarian, so...?} ** [Sandor: "Tree" ="Sign"] {?}
** [Sandor of Mariska] "foreign" -"ally?"- "[has] the seeds of understanding"
** [hi Miklos!]
** p154 ** -"Sandor hears capital P in `Power' and `almost smiled'"-
** pp154-155
** [Sandor of Miklos] -"shows promise, and offers to train as his successor"-
** p155 ** "mind to mind" {psychic communication} -"Miklos denies, but"-
"Something like a memory flickered behind [his] eyes"
{remembering his master/Baron? Bolk? Devera?}
** pp156-157
** -"Laszlo & Sandor pay Vilmos a visit; he's sorry for being inarticulate"-
{hinting?: he has intuition and/or is capable of slowly thinking things out
but has trouble explaining his reasoning}
** "# I felt something #, that I belonged. That I was safe.
But that isn't right either {i.e. is not quite how he felt}. #"
** p157 ** "The wizard tried to fit this into his {!} scheme of things
[important] But it was like nothing he had experienced before."
{again: blindness to what is really there and (mutual?) incompatibility}
** pp157-158
** -"cost Sandor paid for fully taking the Power of Faerie into his life,"-
"even those [aspects] that made no direct use of it"
{general cost to advanced practitioners? specific to people like Sandor?}
** p158
** -"Sandor sees the Hand and Laszlo looking at the bullrider sculpture,
{both of?} which Sandor compares to"- "a stagnant pond[.]"
-"violence/action appeals to the Laszlos and Viktors,"- "But there is
more power in the stagnant pool than Laszlo could ever imagine."
{? Dragaeran empire stagnates under the Hand and thereby gets its power?}
** p158 ** [Sandor to Laszlo] "There is more at work here than I had thought."
-"preventing Sandor from using Power of Faerie, sapping Vilmos' will."-
** p159 ** -"not witches -- merely an example"-
** pp159-160 ** -"River power != Power of Faerie"-
** pp160-161 ** -"Sandor does not know why he so hates the River"-
** p161 ** "*taltos* horse"
** p162 ** -"Sandor and Laszlo visit Bolk; they perceive him as threatening.
Sandor is pleased to feel fear."-
** p163 ** "Poor judgement # is the mark of a poor ruler" {like Tortaalik}
** -"Bolk is tied up with ropes"-
** -"Laszlo refuses to use Allam on Bolk without first talking to Miklos"-
** p164 ** -"Goddess = personification of Sandor's powers"-
"it is hard to know when she has helped,
and when it would have worked out anyway.
I believe that is how she wants it.
I can say that I have never failed when it mattered."
** -"Sandor regrets"- "Or did he?" {unclear, like Goddess?}
pp165-167. "Interlude"
** p165 ** "So, you" {narrator? listener?}
** p167
** "If you don't believe me, ask my father. # we saw the whole thing"
** [backtracking] pp165-167
** -"16 year old Prince Janos goes fiddling around, finding lost farm animals"-
** -"crosses into Faerie and finds lost 14 year old Terez asleep amid roses,
whom he wakes up by fiddling for 100 days without stopping to eat"-
{echoes of *taltos* legend?}
pp168-180. ch11: "The Stable"
** p168 ** -"Miklos visits Bolk"-
** p169 ** -"imagery for Power: spider's web --> string --> cord --> rope"
** pp169-170 ** -"Bolk frees himself"- {Miklos will free himself?}
** p171 ** -"Bolk affirms Brigitta's vision of Tree as beautiful, and yet"-
"It is important, somehow, but it escapes me. I mislike this."
{again, blindness, incompability}
** "I wouldn't fit through the door # yet." {but will, as a staff}
** p173 ** -"with Power, Miklos sees lines around the Tree"-
** p174 ** -"Brigitta looks at him oddly"-
"I trust you, Miklos, # and it scares me.
I don't want to love you. It scares me more."
** pp175-176
** -"Brigitta and Miklos talk about what the Palace should-vs-does represent"-
** p177 ** -"Brigitta and Miklos have a small argument"-
** pp177-178
** [Brigitta] -"Tree will be their salvation, but does not know how; invokes"-
"all the ancient gods of our ancestors" {who are...?}
** p178 ** -"Brigitta has nightmares, apparently of the Goddess"-
** -"most Fenarians do not believe in the Goddess"-
** p179
** [Brigitta to Miklos] -"must refuse Sandor's offer, but doesn't know why]
** p180
** "brain fever"? {Easterners only? _Orca_: nothing Dragaeran by that name?}
** -"Miklos brings Brigitta to a secret sanctuary; they make love"-
"he taught her an innocence she had never known"
p181. "Interlude"
** p181 ** -"Tree waits expectantly, almost in frustration"-
** "strength that is left unused can turn on itself,
and the urge for growth that is confined can become cancerous,
and stagnant air breeds rot and decay."
{sounds like the Tree could have turned on them}
pp182-196. ch12: "The Cellar"
** p182 ** "I will be queen!"
{Herbert's _Dune_: -"They have tried to take the life of my son!"-}
** "melancholy" {?} ** "They [spells] {?} were becoming less frequent"
** "Forget him. You saw him die, at your very feet." {who?}
** "She had received the last smile from his lips and the fan from his hand."
** "I was a child! # I didn't know what I was doing!"
{? magic gone wrong? unintentionally imitating Margit story? duel?}
** p183 ** [hi brothers, Sandor, Viktor, Mate!]
** "Something [deep] in Mariska wanted her to encourage [their] conflict" {?}
** -"Vilmos grinning"-
** pp184-185 ** -"Andor again exhibits blind devotion to Goddess, storms off"-
** [backtrack] p185 ** -"Mariska tells Vilmos she never objected to norska"-
{I tend to believe her, but...}
** -"Vilmos thoughtfully agrees Mariska wouldn't apologize to Andor."-
{? What does he mean?} -"Laszlo gives Vilmos and unreadable look."-
** pp185-186
** -"Juliska brings out Ambrus's famous soup; secret ingredient: sheep's head"-
** [chef Hanna mentioned] ** "*palacsintak*" {?} ** [converse] "artificiality"
** -"Mariska hates being called by her mother's title, `Countess'"-
** p187 ** -"Mariska avoids explaining"- "it serves no purpose [of mine]"
** -"Mariska openly warns of Viktor and Henrik"-
** p188 ** -"partial palatial collapse"-
** pp189-190 ** -"Vilmos, then Mariska, head towards norska"-
** pp191-192 ** -"Batya died; Vilmos and Mariska tend the others"-
** p193 ** -"Sandor is an idiot"- "Goddess, what is wrong with these people?"
** p194
** -"Mariska sees a naked Laszlo talking to Goddess = face in a glowing ball"-
"she suddenly knew {how?} she must not look at that face." {why not?}
** "bath" {presumably no showers} ** -"Sandor bored, Andor excited"-
** p195 ** -"Viktor tells Mariska not to blame the Palace"-
** ["Laszlo's whore" to "trembling" {!} Mariska] -"visit Vilmos"-
** -"Vilmos's room; Vilmos moves decisively!"-
** p196 ** -"Vilmos needs someone to blame, but does not know who"-
pp197-198. "Interlude"
** pp197-198 ** {narrator? listener?}
** "north part of Bajfold [again], near the village of Keszpenz" {?}
** -"north, salt lake"- ** "I was strong in those days" ** "Ask anyone"
** [backtracking] -"kick willow, willow kicks back, both cry,
I sing dragon to sleep, use to plow River, give dragon to the Goddess"-
{huh?}
pp199-213. ch13: "The Goddess"
** pp199-200 ** -"Brigitta had left, Miklos visits Vilmos, they go eat,
Vilmos runs off after watching Laszlo eat"-
** p201 ** -"Brigitta laughs at Miklos's odd timing"-
** [Brigitta to Miklos] "mover", not "being acted upon"
{Merlin in Zelazny's 2nd Amber series; Vlad, e.g. in _Issola_}
** pp201-206 ** -"Miklos decides to act, talks to Bolk."-
** [Bolk] -"Palace --> Tree as their shelter; they must oppose the Goddess"-
** pp206-207 ** [Bolk: what to do after she appears] "mysterious", "evasive"
** p207 ** -"Miklos finally notices extra joint in each of idol's fingers"-
{is idol bare-foot? extra joint in each toe, too?}
** "In Faerie, gods were thought of as--but never mind that now."
{huh? guests, or what?}
** "If he couldn't trust Bolk, there was no point in doing anything."
** pp207-209 ** -"Bolk destroys the idol"-
** "never before had Bolk shown any signs of exhaustion"
** p209 ** -"Goddess apears amid sparkles {as in _Issola_};
9 feet tall, pointed ears, extra joint in each finger"-
"She reminded Miklos of someone, but he couldn't remember who."
{presumably, who=Devera}
** p210 ** -"Goddess disbelieves Brigitta's claim she did it,
laughs sadly after referring to Brigitta's "*lineage*"-
"Her voice was thin and airy, yet deep. It seemed to come from miles away."
** -"She recognizes Bolk, remarks he has changed,
and wonders if that is why he thinks he can destroy her"-
** p211 ** "She's so human" ** -"Kindness; she paralyzes Laszlo"-
** {Legend of Fenarr repeats itself}
-"Flash of blue, Bolk intercepts bolt and tells his "master" what to do"-
** p212 ** -"Kindness; she puts Brigitta into a sleep"-
** "I have no wish to further harm his body."
** p213 ** -"Miklos flings Bolk's heart at Goddess"-
"Her eyes lit up in rage, then widened in surprise."
"Her lips were moving, but Miklos heard no sound." {what's up?}
** [bye-bye Goddess!] -"both Andor and Miklos have lost a god."-
p214. "Interlude"
** p214 ** -"scream of Goddess frees the Tree"-
pp215-227. ch14: "The Wake"
** p215 ** -"although able to read Bolk, Brigitta cannot read Miklos"-
** p216 ** "Why wasn't she afraid of him? # he had slain the Goddess.
She ought to be afraid to touch him. Strange."
** p217 ** -"interestingly, Laszlo does not want to kill Miklos"-
{freed from the Goddess, the beginning of understanding?}
** [Brigitta of Miklos] "What had he seen, when he took the power into himself?
That was certainly what he was doing;
nothing else made one look or act that way,
though it was funny how different it looked from the inside and the outside.
But had he seen the same things she always saw when -- "
** p218
** "*No. Don't think about it. It is behind you; part of another life.*
But the memories, the visions, returned anyway.
# her father, assuming his natural shape {?!} to torment her mother,
or bringing his `friends', to her.
`Here, Brigitta. Here is what you will do ....' #
The horrid, horrid smile. `Lineage', the Goddess had said.
She had recognized her." {what lineage? Goddess = one of the "friends"?}
** p219 ** -"Mariska passes by"- [Miklos's lips] "compressed tightly together"
** p220 ** -"Miklos sees the Tree as beautiful"-
** [backtracking] pp218-221
** -"Brigitta and Miklos talk about what to do next, e.g. burn Palace or not"-
** p221 ** [hi Laszlo and Viktor!]
** "once again {when before?}" -"Brigitta sees shocking hate in Viktor's eyes"-
** p221-222 ** [Brigitta of Miklos] -"does not want Laszlo again as an enemy"-
** p223 ** -"Miklos explicitly turns down Sandor's offer"-
** [hi Vilmos!] ** -"Mariska walks away"-
** p225 ** -"Miklos and Brigitta try to reach Andor, give him a useful goal"-
** p226 ** -"Vilmos frames his choice as deciding between his brothers"-
{why is it such a binary choice?}
pp228-230. "Interlude"
** p228 ** {not told in first person until end}
** "Jancsi" {name related to "Janos"?}
** p230
** "uncle told me [so] It must be true, # he is as honest as me."
{narrator? listener?}
** [backtracking] pp228-230
** -"boy, born with all his teeth, his mother dies when he is 7"-
** -"he thinks he sees her riding a turtle, but she laughs when reaches her"-
** -"he sees she has an extra joint on each finger"-
** -"so she must be the Goddess, and the turtle one of her demons."-
{one of her demons? turtle means what?}
** -"she disappears"-
** -"the constellation Fenarr's shield makes a tunnel in the sea"-
** -"he defeats and eats the turtle, acquiring understanding of animal speech"-
** -"he punishes an unhelpful bull: ring through the nose, beast of burden"-
{bull means what?}
** -"he punishes an unhelpful bat: blindness"- {bat means what?}
** -"he befriends a friendly horse, calls the land Fenario, himself Fenarr"-
{presumably, horse = Bolk}
pp231-243. ch15: "The Staff"
** p231 ** -"Brigitta and Miklos wake up in the stable"-
** p232-233 ** -"they meet up with Vilmos. come upon almost everyone else"-
** -"Viktor walks off"- ** p233 ** -"lines are drawn"-
** p234 ** -"Laszlo is not angry, but sorrowful. Guard shows up.
He offers Miklos and Brigitta their lives if they leave forever."-
** p235 ** -"Mariska again warns of Viktor, who glances at Sandor,
but Reszo has already informed Laszlo of Viktor's lineage"-
** "story of the Baron and the Runaway Coach" {?}
{Laszlo told us salient points?} [won't leave without a fight]
** p236 ** -"Mariska does not have her fan and leaves"- {unpleasant echoes?}
** p237 ** -"Vilmos commits himself; Laszlo's self-confidence wavers!"-
** p238 ** -"Brigitta defeats Sandor"-
** -"Miklos recognizes the Tree as a weapon"-
** pp238-239 ** -"Andor commits himself! Vilmos saves him from Viktor."-
** p239
** {Allam definitely not Morganti (long live Andor!)}
-"pommel to Miklos's head, flat to Brigitta's head, cuts off Andor's hand"-
** -"Laszlo looks in horror at Allam"-
** p240 ** -"Laszlo looks helpless, cuts Vilmos's side, chest, cheek, face"-
** [Bolk's new incarnation as a staff speaks] "Miki"
{Miklos diminutive, not "Master"!}
** p241 ** -"Vilmos has more wounds, stomach open, but wields the staff"-
"Steel met wood in a flash of white light {like lightning?} #
and with a clap of thunder"
** p242
** [blade of Allam is] "now only a broken piece of burnt and twisted metal"
[smell of smoke] {?}
** p243 ** -"as Palace starts to fall apart, Bolk speaks"-
pp244-245. "Interlude"
** pp244-245 ** -"Tree bursts free, turns into a new Palace"-
pp46-259. ch16: "The Tree"
** p246 ** -"Bolk's 38th incarnation; heart lost = emotion lost"-
** p247 ** -"Laszlo kills himself"-
** p248 ** -"some `sapphires' are missing from the hilt of Allam"-
{David Silberstein on RASFW: blue-purple amorphia stones,
perhaps used by Bolk -- before and/or after his staff incarnation?}
** pp248-249
** [Andor] -"finds meaning in life, despairs, follows Laszlo, saved by Miklos"-
** p250 ** -"Vilmos feels good, and goes to his norska"-
** p252 ** -"Vilmos hands Mariska her fan before running"-
{she receives it from his hand -- form of absolution?}
** p253 ** -"Viktor can't understand how Allam was broken"-
** -"Vilmos shows up. Viktor's blade bounces off his neck"-
{like it did off the Tree's roots!}
** p254 ** [bye-bye Viktor!]
** [Sandor] -"watches through half-closed eyes,
literally doesn't see what's going on, bored of life despite youth"-
{young compared to Dragaerans, especially Sethra}
** p255 ** -"Sandor falls and drowns; River blocks his access to the Power"-
** -"Andor can understand Bolk now!"-
{color-changing epiphanies in "Pleasantville"!}
** p256 ** -"Mariska mistakes (what looks like) smoke, leaves, is homesick,
is resigned to "Countess", and is surprised by a different face in the fan"-
{different face?}
{comparing her and Brigitta, who was strong or weak after all?}
** {Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy: interesting political struggles}
** "We both hear the same things now"
** p257 ** -"Brigitta is pleased she can now read Miklos"-
** -"Bolk informs Brigitta she is pregnant with Miklos's child"-
"meanings and associations and repercussions" {namely?}
** p258 ** "She was crying."
** "The old King and Queen had died quietly,
unnoticed by themselves or the Palace"
** [norska] "vibrissae" ** "invisible hand" {?}
** -"Mariska does not look back, for fear of returning"-
** p259 ** -"Miklos sees the new Palace in Brigitta's eyes"- {meaning?}
pp260-261. "Interlude"
** p260 ** "demons, demons, demons # everywhere # {3-fold repetition...?}
part of life in Fenario, though not everyone knows this."
"Pretty, pretty Margit, who lost her lover in the in where the dzur stand.
Will you never learn {what?}?
Your daughter will learn, won't she {Brigitta?}? But only too late.
Perhaps your daughter's daughter {Cawti?} will fare better
{better? not ask too much of Vlad?},
and some say that will justify everything."
"But in this land, # we don't ask to justify.
We watch, and we wait, and we learn." {learn what?}
** {another *3*: Margit, daughter, grand-daughter}
** p261
** -"mother cat and dead kitten, lad jumping backwards into River"- {?}
** "She {who?} sleeps amid the roes, or she lies on a bier,
but she will awake in time to see pretty Margit wed the demon
while Jancsi rides the turtle through the River,
plowed with the head of a dragon by
the greatest liar {who?} Fenario has ever known."
** "miracle" {?}
** "Northman # built the River, rode the turtle,
and fell in the inn where the pair of dzur guard the door.
Or was it Jani?" {?}
** "worth it for the glimpse of Margit" {?}
** "The horses are all *taltos* and the coachman awaits." {?}
pp262-266. ch17: "The Palace"
** p262 ** [Brigitta] "There is no place for me here."
** p263 ** "must leave" ** -"cried for child, for"- "him" {"gya"?}
** -"Brigitta was in Faerie for a year and learned the Power"-
** p264 ** {Brigitta paid cost for power? What cost, precisely?}
** "I have allowed the power to flow through me #
until to live without it would snap my mind. #
*I'm not human. I'm not helf. My father was {*was*, not *is*?} --"
** "blackened blade"
** 265 ** [to Vilmos] -"Countess will return"-
pp268-269. "Epilogue"
** p267
** -"Devera visits Miklos by the River; she has seen what she came to see"-
** p268
** -"Devera giggles, catches herself, says yes, she will live a long time"-
** -"Devera tries not to say much about Brigitta,
but her eyes fill with tears and
she says although Brigitta will arrive safely,
she cannot watch over Brigitta when she (Devera) is older."-
** [Devera says of Brigitta's daughter]
"I won't have to watch *over* her;
everyone else will have to watch *out* for her."
{If Cawti: both as assassin *and* as revolutionary?}
p270. [quote after Epilogue]
** p270 ** {huh?}
"... es meg ma is elnek [és még ma is élnek]
ha meg nem haltak"
--
Thomas Yan (ty...@cs.cornell.edu) I don't speak for Cornell University
Be pro-active. Fight sucky software and learned helplessness.
Apologies for any lack of capitalization; typing hurts my hands.
David Eppstein
ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu (Thomas Yan) wrote:
> ** -"Miklos thinks Devera talks like Bolk"-
Interesting foreshadowing, I hadn't realized we'd seen more of her
abilities than curiosity and ubiquity before _Issola_.
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Thomas Yan
Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
Spoilers for _Brokedown Palace_
>
>{see my recent post, "[DBS] Intro to Distracted by Shadows", for an
>explanation of goals and formatting conventions.}
Below is a selection of what I hope are the more interesting
observations from my original post, with some typos fixed (argh!)...
pp1-3. "Prologue: The Legend of Fenarr"
** p1 ** "sun" {not "Furnace", as in the Vlad books -- due to translation?}
** pp2-3 ** "Sword # filled with the power of Faerie itself"
{actually, Morganti = Serioli/Elder/pre-Empire sorcery, not Orb-magic}
pp4-18. ch1: "The Horse"
** {"Demon Goddess" -- never named as "Verra" in the book?}
** p8 ** "Dark Times" {?}
** p13 ** -"Bolk must reject"- {*can* not or *will* not accept?}
** "Once I [Bolk]was stronger than the power of Faerie" {does he mean Verra?}
** {Bolk = horse in Legend died? How survive -- simultaneous manifestation?
What god-like powers to Bolk use in this book and where does he use them?}
** p17 ** -"Miklos thinks Devera talks like Bolk"-
** -"Devera does or pretends to not recognize `*taltos*' and `Bolk'"-
** -"Miklos sees a palace in Devera's eyes"- {?}
pp20-34. ch2: "The King"
** p22 ** [bullrider sculpture] {who is rider? "*taltos*" *bull*?}
** p23 ** [crop] {parallels between Tortaalik & Laszlo?} ** "reavers" {?}
** p25 ** {dragon = Devera?}
** pp30-31 ** [hi old King Janos VI and his Queen Terez!]
** {is "Janos" related to "Janus"?
if so, which are the 2 directions that he looks -- past and future?}
pp35-37. "Interlude"
** pp35-37
** -"Mozes {Moses?} wins King's daughter Rozsa {Rocza?} with 3 {?} feats"-
** -"helped by a mother cow {?} (with horns in those days {?})"-
** -"Goddess: 3 different guises {?}, 3 kinds of bird flocks {?}"-
** {each of *3* things = each of *3* surviving or non-Miklos Princes?}
pp38-51. ch3: "The Dragon"
** p39 ** "yellow jerkin, green tunic, brown leggings" {colors mean what?}
** p41, p43 ** {dream from Bolk or other god(s)?}
** p45 ** -"athyra pyschics: for hunt & hiding; silly to use against dragons"-
{metaphor/foreshadowing of events in the book?}
** pp50-51 ** [bye dragon!] {not Devera?}
{but perhaps Devera could survive death of 1 of her manifestations!}
p52. "Interlude"
** {if Tree is planned by someone: more impressive than the Jenoine plans
we've been allowed to see in _Issola_!}
{weed in Tepper's _The Family Tree_}
pp53-66. ch4: "The Splinter"
** p53 ** {chapter title/imagery: "Splinter" means or refers to what?}
** p56 ** "[Goddess] is the living embodiment of the Power of Faerie.
That is why we worship her."
** pp59-61 ** [Andor -- dream from Goddess, gets another splinter] {uh oh!}
** p64 ** -"Mariska resembles Viktor"- {how/why? young, power-hungry? kin?}
pp67-69. "Interlude"
** pp67-69
** -"1st son too cowardly becomes a cock"- {cock -- cowardly or rash?}
** -"2nd too rash becomes a teckla"- {teckla -- rash or cowardly?}
** -"3rd just right kills old hag = beautiful lady = Goddess, who rewards him"-
** -"he takes only as much riches as needed"- {right balance, again}
** {each of these *3* brother = each of *3* surviving or non-Miklos Princes?}
pp70-83. ch5: "The Coachman"
** "*garaboncias*" {?} [Miklos:] -"well, yes, traveled far away and returned"-
** "strange {why?} *garaboncias* [to] speak of the Demon Goddess"
** p74 ** "one of the Goddess's demons" {?}
** [backtrack] pp73-74 ** {tale -- point?}
** -"Northerner kills a jeweler while wooing a Fenarian beauty"-
** [Fenarian Prince] -"take Allam from King's bedchamber, ride *taltos* bull"-
{Prince = rider, Bolk = bull in sculpture?}
** [Prince] -"kill Northerner, betrayed by beauty, fights way home, executed:
Allam only for the King"-
** -"The beauty marries a demon"- {Brigitta's parents?}
** p75 ** {when did Miklos lose his boots?}
** p77 ** -"palace in Brigitta's eyes"- {why? as in Devera's!}
pp86-89. ch6: "The Giant"
** p93 ** "*lant*" {lyre? lute?}
** p4 ** {Brigitta vs Mariska} "solid" vs "frail", "weakness" vs "strength"
** pp94-95 ** -"mushrooms flourish among decay, including a dead tree {!}"-
** p97 ** {significance of Mariska's fan?}
pp100-102. "Interlude"
** {point of the tale?}
** [backtrack] p100 ** "Peter" {?} ** "stephenite" {?}
** p101 ** "demon" {sounds like standard *Earth*/Christian-style demon}
pp103-115. ch7: "The Meeting"
** p103 ** -"songbirds instead of jhereg"-
{like different birds in tale of Demon Goddess hag and Mozses and Rozsa?}
** p104 ** [Bolk] "was a bull"
** p112 ** [Bolk and Power of Faerie are {alien} powers]
"it is rare that [they] can hurt each other"
** "The Demon Goddess is a {"a", not "the"? is there more than one?}
manifestation of the power {why not *P*ower?} of Faerie."
** p115 ** "I [Bolk] cannot conceive of what it [Tree] might be,
but I am certain it is important."
** {unlikely: perhaps Bolk does have a good idea of what it is (capable of)
and yet is still ignorant of its essense (its inner workings)}
pp117-134. ch8: "The Captain"
** p122-123 ** -"Allam (4th time for Viktor): weak blow, 2 leaves fall"-
{from the shaking? cut off?}
** p132 ** [Goddess] "said it wasn't a tree, but wouldn't say what it was"
{so what is it? maybe a god or demon?}
** -"Joszef asked for Allam to endure as long as the Goddess"-
"We are told {!} [she] replied, `It cannot be done.
The sword is destined to live longer than I."
** {In what sense does it live longer? literally *live*? merely *last*?
Both she and Bolk "die", so why can he but not her manifest in Fenario?}
** {did that use up Joszef's death-boon, or did he get another chance?}
pp135-136. "Interlude"
** p135 ** "Tividar the Renewer" {?} ** "Jani" {?} ** "Margit" {?}
** p136 ** "Pista" {?} **
** [backtracking] pp135-136
** -"Margit dares Jani, who meets it, then leaves her"-
pp152-164. ch10: "The Wizard"
** p155 ** "mind to mind" {psychic communication} -"Miklos denies, but"-
"Something like a memory flickered behind [his] eyes"
{remembering his master/Baron? Bolk? Devera?}
** pp156-157
** -"Laszlo & Sandor pay Vilmos a visit; he's sorry for being inarticulate"-
{hinting?: he has intuition and/or is capable of slowly thinking things out
but has trouble explaining his reasoning}
** p157 ** "The wizard tried to fit this into his {!} scheme of things
[important] But it was like nothing he had experienced before."
{again: blindness to what is really there and (mutual?) incompatibility}
** pp157-158
** -"cost Sandor paid for fully taking the Power of Faerie into his life,"-
"even those [aspects] that made no direct use of it"
{general cost to advanced practitioners? specific to people like Sandor?}
** p158
** -"Sandor sees the Hand and Laszlo looking at the bullrider sculpture,
{both of?} which Sandor compares to"- "a stagnant pond[.]"
-"violence/action appeals to the Laszlos and Viktors,"- "But there is
more power in the stagnant pool than Laszlo could ever imagine."
{? Dragaeran empire stagnates under the Hand and thereby gets its power?}
** p163 ** "Poor judgement # is the mark of a poor ruler" {like Tortaalik}
** -"Sandor regrets"- "Or did he?" {unclear, like Goddess?}
pp168-180. ch11: "The Stable"
** p171 ** -"Bolk affirms Brigitta's vision of Tree as beautiful, and yet"-
"It is important, somehow, but it escapes me. I mislike this."
{again, blindness, incompability}
** pp177-178
** [Brigitta] "all the ancient gods of our ancestors" {who are...?}
** p178 ** -"Brigitta has nightmares, apparently of the Goddess"-
** p180
** "brain fever"? {Easterners only? _Orca_: nothing Dragaeran by that name?}
p181. "Interlude"
** p181 ** "strength that is left unused can turn on itself,
and the urge for growth that is confined can become cancerous,
and stagnant air breeds rot and decay."
{sounds like the Tree could have turned on them}
pp182-196. ch12: "The Cellar"
** "melancholy" {?} ** "They [spells] {?} were becoming less frequent"
** "Forget him. You saw him die, at your very feet." {who?}
** "She had received the last smile from his lips and the fan from his hand."
** "I was a child! # I didn't know what I was doing!"
{? magic gone wrong? unintentionally imitating Margit story? duel?}
pp197-198. "Interlude"
** pp197-198 ** -"kick willow, willow kicks back, both cry,
I sing dragon to sleep, use to plow River, give dragon to the Goddess"-
{huh?}
pp199-213. ch13: "The Goddess"
** p207 ** "In Faerie, gods were thought of as--but never mind that now."
{huh? guests, or what?}
** p213 ** -"Miklos flings Bolk's heart at Goddess"-
"Her eyes lit up in rage, then widened in surprise."
"Her lips were moving, but Miklos heard no sound." {what's up?}
pp215-227. ch14: "The Wake"
** p218 ** "Don't think about it. It is behind you; part of another life.*
# her father, assuming his natural shape {?!} to torment her mother,
or bringing his `friends', to her.
`Here, Brigitta. Here is what you will do ....' #
The horrid, horrid smile. `Lineage', the Goddess had said.
She had recognized her." {what lineage? Goddess = one of the "friends"?}
** p221 ** {when before?} -"Brigitta sees shocking hate in Viktor's eyes"-
pp228-230. "Interlude"
** "Jancsi" {name related to "Janos"?}
** {*one* of her demons? turtle means what?}
{bull means what?} {bat means what?}
pp231-243. ch15: "The Staff"
** p236 ** -"Mariska does not have her fan and leaves"- {unpleasant echoes?}
** [Bolk's new incarnation speaks] "Miki" {Miklos diminutive, not "Master"!}
pp46-259. ch16: "The Tree"
** p252 ** -"Vilmos hands Mariska her fan before running"-
{she receives it from his hand -- form of absolution?}
** p253 ** -"Viktor's blade bounces off Vilmos's neck"-
{like it did off the Tree's roots!}
** p256 ** [Mariska] -"is surprised by a different face {?}in the fan"-
** {comparing her and Brigitta, who was strong or weak after all?}
** p258 ** "invisible hand" {?}
** p259 ** -"Miklos sees the new Palace in Brigitta's eyes"- {meaning?}
pp260-261. "Interlude"
** p260 ** "demons, demons, demons" {3-fold repetition...?}
"Pretty, pretty Margit, who lost her lover in the inn where the dzur stand.
Will you never learn {what?}?
Your daughter will learn, won't she {Brigitta?}? But only too late.
Perhaps your daughter's daughter {Cawti?} will fare better
{better? not ask too much of Vlad?},
and some say that will justify everything."
"But in this land, # we don't ask to justify.
We watch, and we wait, and we learn." {learn what?}
** {another *3*: Margit, daughter, grand-daughter}
** p261
** -"mother cat and dead kitten, lad jumping backwards into River"- {?}
** "She {who?} sleeps amid the roes, or she lies on a bier,
but she will awake in time to see pretty Margit wed the demon
while Jancsi rides the turtle through the River,
plowed with the head of a dragon by
the greatest liar {who?} Fenario has ever known."
** "miracle" {?}
** "Northman # built the River, rode the turtle,
and fell in the inn where the pair of dzur guard the door.
Or was it Jani?" {?}
** "worth it for the glimpse of Margit" {?}
** "The horses are all *taltos* and the coachman awaits." {?}
pp262-266. ch17: "The Palace"
** p263 ** [Brigitta] -"cried for child, for"- "him" {"gya"?}
** p264 ** {Brigitta paid cost for power? What cost, precisely?}
pp268-269. "Epilogue"
** [Devera says of Brigitta's daughter] "I won't have to watch *over* her;
everyone else will have to watch *out* for her."
{If Cawti: both as assassin *and* as revolutionary?}
p270. [quote after Epilogue]
** "... es meg ma is elnek [és még ma is élnek]
ha meg nem haltak" {huh?}
David Eppstein
ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu (Thomas Yan) wrote:
> ** "She had received the last smile from his lips and the fan from his hand."
This (and probably a lot of other mysterious parts of _BP_) is a Grateful
Dead reference. Specifically "Lady with a fan" from Terrapin Station.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mleone/gdead/dead-lyrics/Terrapin_Station_-_Lady_With
_a_Fan.txt
Michael S. Schiffer
<9lvdtc$qb4$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>:
>...
>pp38-51. ch3: "The Dragon"
>** p39 ** "yellow jerkin, green tunic, brown leggings" {colors mean
>what?}
These are the Teckla house colors.
>...
>pp70-83. ch5: "The Coachman"
>
>** "*garaboncias*" {?} [Miklos:] -"well, yes, traveled far away and
>returned"-
According to <http://home.swipnet.se/~w-
48250/mythology/g/garaboncias.html>
"Derived from the Latin "necromancia."
"Also called a Wandering Scholar, a Garaboncias is similar in power
to a Taltos, except that he learns his magic in school. Upon
graduation, thirteen of the graduates take a position at the big
wheel. As it is revolved, one graduate will lose hold and met a sorry
end. The remaining twelve become Garaboncias.
"In addition to the Taltos changling and weather powers, a Garaboncias
can call a dragon from his den and ride him bareback. They do not
fight with other Garaboncias as the Taltos do, however, they are also
nourished by milk." [As are the Taltos, according to the relevant
entry. --Mike]
"They conduct their magic by a book. Anyone who comes across this book
by accident will soar up the clouds."
>...
>** "... es meg ma is elnek [és még ma is élnek]
> ha meg nem haltak" {huh?}
I wonder if it's "And if they have not died, then they are living there
still," which Brust has given as a stock phrase for ending Hungarian
folk tales. It's probably something similar-- an online Hungarian
dictionary gives "boldogan éltek mig meg nem haltak" as "they lived
happily ever after."
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
ms...@mediaone.net
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
David Silberstein
the correct ones, but there you go.
In article <9lvdtc$qb4$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>** {Bolk = horse in Legend died? How survive -- simultaneous manifestation?
He has succesive incarnations, as he says at the end.
>** -"Devera does or pretends to not recognize `*taltos*' and `Bolk'"-
Well, she would only recognize "taltos" in the context of "Uncle Vlad". :-)
And "Bolk" is an abbreviation of a Fenarian word, which she might
not know.
>
>pp38-51. ch3: "The Dragon"
>
>** p39 ** "yellow jerkin, green tunic, brown leggings" {colors mean what?}
I thought this one was fairly obvious - they're the colors of House
Teckla, which Miklos had joined when he got his Orb link.
I think it is perhaps plausible that Miklos could turn a tree into a
raft, while Vlad might not be able - Teckla would presumably have spells
for more useful activities, as compared to flashy stuff like
teleportation.
>** pp50-51 ** [bye dragon!] {not Devera?}
> {but perhaps Devera could survive death of 1 of her manifestations!}
Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon...
>
>pp53-66. ch4: "The Splinter"
>
>** p53 ** {chapter title/imagery: "Splinter" means or refers to what?}
I suspect it might be more political allegory...
>** p64 ** -"Mariska resembles Viktor"- {how/why? young, power-hungry? kin?}
There may be branches of the Royal family all over the place.
Aristocracy does tend to intermarry, after all.
>pp70-83. ch5: "The Coachman"
>
>** p75 ** {when did Miklos lose his boots?}
I think during the business with the dragon (which interrupted him
while he was working on the raft).
>
>pp86-89. ch6: "The Giant"
>
>** p93 ** "*lant*" {lyre? lute?}
Probably lute (it's in the dictionary as both). Cawti also has one.
>pp168-180. ch11: "The Stable"
>
>** p180
>** "brain fever"? {Easterners only? _Orca_: nothing Dragaeran
> by that name?}
Neither Vlad not Miklos is a physicker. Do you say "rhinoviral
infection" or "cold"?
>
>pp199-213. ch13: "The Goddess"
>
>** p207 ** "In Faerie, gods were thought of as--but never mind that now."
> {huh? guests, or what?}
As beings that have learned the trick of manifesting in more than one
place at one time. Talented individuals, but not held in quite as
much awe as Easterners do.
By the way, you don't mention it, but her voice on pg 210 matches
Vlads perceptions elsewhere.
>pp215-227. ch14: "The Wake"
>
> The horrid, horrid smile. `Lineage', the Goddess had said.
> She had recognized her." {what lineage? Goddess = one of
> the "friends"?}
I think that just means Verra recognized her demon parentage,
whether that means Dragaeran or whatever.
Although if Dragaeran, perhaps she was referring to a particular
House - Yendi, if she just means the deception, or Dragon or Dzur
if she means the bravery in standing up to a god.
>
>pp231-243. ch15: "The Staff"
>
>** [Bolk's new incarnation speaks] "Miki" {Miklos diminutive, not "Master"!}
No, only Vilmos (and later Andor & Brigitta) calls him "Miki".
Bolk still says "master".
> "But in this land, # we don't ask to justify.
> We watch, and we wait, and we learn." {learn what?}
Marxist philosophy. :-D
>
>pp262-266. ch17: "The Palace"
>
>** p263 ** [Brigitta] -"cried for child, for"- "him" {"gya"?}
She's just assuming that it's male. Bolk didn't specify the gender.
>** p264 ** {Brigitta paid cost for power? What cost, precisely?}
The price for getting what you want...
... is having to deal with what you thought you wanted.
She's hooked in deep to the Orb, and depends on it.
David Silberstein
In article <GIGM9...@kithrup.com>,
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>Answers to some of the questions raised. The answers might not be
>the correct ones, but there you go.
>
>In article <9lvdtc$qb4$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
>Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>
>
>
>>pp215-227. ch14: "The Wake"
>>
>> The horrid, horrid smile. `Lineage', the Goddess had said.
>> She had recognized her." {what lineage? Goddess = one of
>> the "friends"?}
>
>I think that just means Verra recognized her demon parentage,
>whether that means Dragaeran or whatever.
>
>Although if Dragaeran, perhaps she was referring to a particular
>House - Yendi, if she just means the deception, or Dragon or Dzur
>if she means the bravery in standing up to a god.
>
Or maybe even House Jhereg (I wonder if the Demon took that moniker
because he'd spent some time in the East...)
>> "But in this land, # we don't ask to justify.
>> We watch, and we wait, and we learn." {learn what?}
Actually, I had a more serious take on this regarding Brigitta and
Margit and their power seeking: Margit was looking for a powerful
boyfriend to protect her, and she got a demon. Brigitta chose
instead to become independantly powerful, but now she is utterly
dependant on the Orb. Only Cawti is looking to empower herself
by helping others, by looking outside of herself and her own needs.
Which actually leads back to the same answer, come to think of it:
>Marxist philosophy. :-D
And we also learn: It is not for short-lived humans to hold on to
old things - old physical structures or old political structures -
when it is time to renew them.
>>** p264 ** {Brigitta paid cost for power? What cost, precisely?}
>
>The price for getting what you want...
>... is having to deal with what you thought you wanted.
>
>She's hooked in deep to the Orb, and depends on it.
>
Also, remember that the most effective use of the Orb requires you
to change the way you perceive the world around you. Brigitta is
perhaps somewhat alienated by her need to use it.
This alienation may be something that a sorceror can move beyond
(Kiera/Sethra), but perhaps it takes a long, long time...
Thomas Yan
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>Some afterthoughts...
>
>In article <GIGM9...@kithrup.com>,
>David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>
>>In article <9lvdtc$qb4$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
>>Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
Spoilers
-snip-
>>>** p264 ** {Brigitta paid cost for power? What cost, precisely?}
>>
>> The price for getting what you want...
>> ... is having to deal with what you thought you wanted.
>>
>> She's hooked in deep to the Orb, and depends on it.
>
> Also, remember that the most effective use of the Orb requires you
> to change the way you perceive the world around you. Brigitta is
> perhaps somewhat alienated by her need to use it.
>
> This alienation may be something that a sorceror can move beyond
> (Kiera/Sethra), but perhaps it takes a long, long time...
Aliera and Morrolan are relatively young, and I'll bet they are at
least Sandor's and Brigitta's equal, but they don't seem all that
alienated. Thus, I wonder:
** pp157-158
** -"cost Sandor paid for fully taking the Power of Faerie into his life,"-
"even those [aspects] that made no direct use of it"
{general cost to advanced practitioners? specific to people like Sandor?}
In particular, although the text says "[for one to master the Power,]
there is no better way to look at the world" (p158), Aliera, Morrolan,
and Sethra make me wonder if that statement is too strong. Perhaps,
it is the best/only way for people like *Sandor* but not *everyone*.
Thomas Yan
>the correct ones, but there you go.
Thanks! But you've provided so many answers, that I'm just going to
silently delete them, rather than pepper the text below with ellipses
or "snip"'s.
>In article <9lvdtc$qb4$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
>Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>>** {Bolk = horse in Legend died? How survive -- simultaneous manifestation?
>
>He has succesive incarnations, as he says at the end.
I was going to say that still doesn't answer the question, but I now
realize that it might partly do so: *re*incarnations? Awfully fast
growth cycle (this time at least) if so!
>>** pp50-51 ** [bye dragon!] {not Devera?}
>> {but perhaps Devera could survive death of 1 of her manifestations!}
>
>Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon...
Heh. Hm, Devera arrived "too early" -- so, did she stick around and
wait it out, or did she jump forward in time? If she stuck around
(possible, but unlikely?), perhaps she turned into a dragon to amuse
herself while waiting (unlikely, but possible).
>>pp168-180. ch11: "The Stable"
>>
>>** p180
>>** "brain fever"? {Easterners only? _Orca_: nothing Dragaeran
>> by that name?}
>
>Neither Vlad not Miklos is a physicker. Do you say "rhinoviral
>infection" or "cold"?
However, I think "brain fever" is pretty descriptive. I find it
significant that Hwdf'rjaanci didn't respond with something like
"brain fever, what's that? do you mean scarlet fever or meningitis?"
or "don't be silly, only Easterners get scarlet fever and those kinds
of ills".
>>pp199-213. ch13: "The Goddess"
>>
>>** p207 ** "In Faerie, gods were thought of as--but never mind that now."
>> {huh? guests, or what?}
>
>As beings that have learned the trick of manifesting in more than one
>place at one time. Talented individuals, but not held in quite as
>much awe as Easterners do.
Or, maybe as demons, only not subject to control. It's not clear what
Miklos had in mind.
>By the way, you don't mention it, but her voice on pg 210 matches
>Vlads perceptions elsewhere.
Ah, I had wondered about that, but somehow didn't think to mark it
down as a question.
>>pp215-227. ch14: "The Wake"
>>
>> The horrid, horrid smile. `Lineage', the Goddess had said.
>> She had recognized her." {what lineage? Goddess = one of
>> the "friends"?}
>
>I think that just means Verra recognized her demon parentage,
>whether that means Dragaeran or whatever.
I wonder if demon means "god subject to control" -- that might be why
both Brigitta and Devera reflect Palaces in their eyes. Hm.
>>pp231-243. ch15: "The Staff"
>>
>>** [Bolk's new incarnation speaks] "Miki" {Miklos diminutive, not "Master"!}
>
>No, only Vilmos (and later Andor & Brigitta) calls him "Miki".
>Bolk still says "master".
Oops, I got my directions confused: Miklos hears "Miki" behind him and
reaches for the Bolk staff on the Tree. It didn't register on me that
he was already facing the Tree.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu (Thomas Yan) wrote in
> <9lvdtc$qb4$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>:
>
> >
> >** "*garaboncias*" {?} [Miklos:] -"well, yes, traveled far away and
> >returned"-
>
> According to <http://home.swipnet.se/~w-
> 48250/mythology/g/garaboncias.html>
>
> "Derived from the Latin "necromancia."
>
> "Also called a Wandering Scholar, a Garaboncias is similar in power
> to a Taltos, except that he learns his magic in school. Upon
> graduation, thirteen of the graduates take a position at the big
> wheel. As it is revolved, one graduate will lose hold and met a sorry
> end. The remaining twelve become Garaboncias.
>
> "In addition to the Taltos changling and weather powers, a Garaboncias
> can call a dragon from his den and ride him bareback. They do not
> fight with other Garaboncias as the Taltos do, however, they are also
> nourished by milk." [As are the Taltos, according to the relevant
> entry. --Mike]
>
> "They conduct their magic by a book. Anyone who comes across this book
> by accident will soar up the clouds."
Contrast with:
`` A specially Magyar character of the tale is the "Taltos", a person
(or a horse) possessing magic powers. He reminds us of the "shaman",
the medicine-man priest of the ancient Asian religions. The "Taltos"
may have been born with his special talents, in which case he is a
"Garaboncias", but more often he acquires these gifts by performing
certain difficult tasks. The (good) hero may also receive help from a
"Taltos horse" which gives him sound advice or practical help, when
needed. ''
<http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/timeless/chapter15.htm>
I found this during a recent (and rather futile) web search to figure
out just what the @#$%^& a 'taltos' was. This entry was interesting
because it's the only thing I've found online that shows a taltos as
a non-human mystic mentor, instead of a shape-shifting shaman (as in
the Encyclopaedia Mythica entry, which can be accessed through the
site Mike quoted).
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Spoilers for _Brokedown Palace_ and also _The Phoenix Guards_
Lots of snippage throughout.
Also, I need a new newsreader; Netscape could only quote up to about
Chapter 13.
> ** p43 ** -"Baron owned 10 times as much land as Laszlo; could teleport!"-
See my post on Eastmenswatch.
> ** [Andor] -"search for surrogate-Nurse, think bullrider sculpture is silly"-
> {sees what he wants to see? sees reflection of himself?}
That's interesting; IIRC, it matches eveyone's impressions of it (do we
see Miklos' comments?).
> ** p97 ** "your -- your norska" {what was he about to say instead?}
I'd guess 'rodents' or something similar.
> ** p135 ** "in the day's of your grandfather's grandfather's grandfather"
> {figure of speech? if not, who is narrator? listener?}
> ** p136 ** "Pista" {?} ** "If you don't believe me, ask old Pista over there"
I've been looking up books on Hungarian/gypsy folklore, and both of
these comments are standard practice (ie. "I saw it with my own eyes.").
> ** p155 ** "mind to mind" {psychic communication} -"Miklos denies, but"-
> "Something like a memory flickered behind [his] eyes"
> {remembering his master/Baron? Bolk? Devera?}
I assume Devera.
> ** "I wouldn't fit through the door # yet." {but will, as a staff}
I thought that referred to 'enlarging' the doors at the end.
> ** p182 ** "I will be queen!"
> ** "melancholy" {?} ** "They [spells] {?} were becoming less frequent"
> ** "Forget him. You saw him die, at your very feet." {who?}
> ** "She had received the last smile from his lips and the fan from his hand."
> ** "I was a child! # I didn't know what I was doing!"
> {? magic gone wrong? unintentionally imitating Margit story? duel?}
I thought it was a brother or lover, and that she was somehow
responsible. Riding accident maybe?
> ** p193 ** -"Sandor is an idiot"- "Goddess, what is wrong with these people?"
Heh, asking the wrong person :)
> {is idol bare-foot? extra joint in each toe, too?}
Interesting; I don't think we've ever seen her feet.
> ** "In Faerie, gods were thought of as--but never mind that now."
> {huh? guests, or what?}
Somewhere in _Taltos_, Verra talks about how Easterners and Dragaerans
view gods, and how both are wrong. Hmm.. I just remembered that she
said the important point was having ichor, so how did she get that?
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <9lvapu$nej$2...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
> Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>
> Spoilers for _Brokedown Palace_
> >
I couldn't respond to this in the original post, because Netscape
couldn't quote that much.
>
> ** p256 ** [Mariska] -"is surprised by a different face {?}in the fan"-
I'd guess Vilmos.
--KG
David Eppstein
Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > ** "She had received the last smile from his lips and the fan from his
> > hand."
> > ** "I was a child! # I didn't know what I was doing!"
> > {? magic gone wrong? unintentionally imitating Margit story? duel?}
>
> I thought it was a brother or lover, and that she was somehow
> responsible. Riding accident maybe?
I haven't looked at _BP_ for a while, but isn't this the part referring to
"The Lady with the Fan" from the Grateful Dead's Terrapin Station?
She throws her fan into a lion's den and dares her lover to retrieve it as
a test. In the GD version, he does and they live happily ever after...
Michael S. Schiffer
<3B84055B...@worldnet.att.net>:
>...
>> ** "In Faerie, gods were thought of as--but never mind that now."
>> {huh? guests, or what?}
>Somewhere in _Taltos_, Verra talks about how Easterners and
>Dragaerans view gods, and how both are wrong. Hmm.. I just
>remembered that she said the important point was having ichor, so
>how did she get that?
Though there's also the question of how much she was conveying general
information and how much she was trying to sneak clues to Vlad. If we
assume she was aware of what Kiera had given him, then the subtext may
not have been "this is the absolute most important thing about being a
god" so much as "this is the most important difference for your
purposes, between being a god (who can leave the Paths of the Dead) and
being a Dragaeran (who can't)". With Verra hoping that the other Lords
of Judgment wouldn't catch the message hidden in the general hauteur
till too late.
Thomas Yan
Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>Thomas Yan wrote:
>>
Details from the start of _Issola_.
Spoilers for _Brokedown Palace_ and maybe _Taltos_.
>
>
>Lots of snippage throughout.
Ditto.
>
>Also, I need a new newsreader; Netscape could only quote up to about
>Chapter 13.
Heh. I expect my other offerings in this series to be shorter, but
maybe if they get this long, I'll post them in smaller pieces.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> ** p97 ** "your -- your norska" {what was he about to say instead?}
>
>I'd guess 'rodents' or something similar.
Heh, maybe "vermin" (Pournelle/Niven's _Mote_ books) or an -"adverse
quantifier"- (dang, I forget from where: Dean's _Tam Lin_ or _Juniper,
Gentian, and Rosemary_ or one of L'Engle's books, I believe).
>> ** p135 ** "in the day's of your grandfather's grandfather's grandfather"
>> ** p136 ** "If you don't believe me, ask old Pista over there"
>
>I've been looking up books on Hungarian/gypsy folklore, and both of
>these comments are standard practice (ie. "I saw it with my own eyes.").
That's why I figured, but it would be awfully interesting if the
narrator or listener were someone we knew, e.g. Vlad.
>> ** p155 ** "mind to mind" {psychic communication} -"Miklos denies, but"-
>> "Something like a memory flickered behind [his] eyes"
>> {remembering his master/Baron? Bolk? Devera?}
>
>I assume Devera.
You mean you think Devera communicated psychically when she "talked"
with Miklos?
>> ** "In Faerie, gods were thought of as--but never mind that now."
>> {huh? guests, or what?}
>
>Somewhere in _Taltos_,
ch15 (p162 in my mmpb copy).
>Verra talks about how Easterners and Dragaerans
>view gods, and how both are wrong. Hmm.. I just remembered that she
>said the important point was having ichor, so how did she get that?
Trade secret, which apparently they are willing to reveal to a select
few: Sethra says she was offered godhood (_Issola_, ch2, p35).
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <3B84055B...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Thomas Yan wrote:
> >>
> Details from the start of _Issola_.
> Spoilers for _Brokedown Palace_ and maybe _Taltos_.
> >
> >Lots of snippage throughout.
> Ditto.
> >
> >Also, I need a new newsreader; Netscape could only quote up to about
> >Chapter 13.
>
> Heh. I expect my other offerings in this series to be shorter, but
> maybe if they get this long, I'll post them in smaller pieces.
It seems that Netscape handled about 75%, so that would be around 500
lines. Splitting at 400 should be safe.
> >
> >> ** p155 ** "mind to mind" {psychic communication} -"Miklos denies, but"-
> >> "Something like a memory flickered behind [his] eyes"
> >> {remembering his master/Baron? Bolk? Devera?}
> >
> >I assume Devera.
>
> You mean you think Devera communicated psychically when she "talked"
> with Miklos?
No, she asked Miklos if Bolk talks psychically, and he asked what she
meant by that.
> >> ** "In Faerie, gods were thought of as--but never mind that now."
> >> {huh? guests, or what?}
> >
> >Somewhere in _Taltos_,
> ch15 (p162 in my mmpb copy).
Thanks.
>
> >Verra talks about how Easterners and Dragaerans
> >view gods, and how both are wrong. Hmm.. I just remembered that she
> >said the important point was having ichor, so how did she get that?
>
> Trade secret, which apparently they are willing to reveal to a select
> few: Sethra says she was offered godhood (_Issola_, ch2, p35).
Still, I didn't think we had any evidence of gods before Verra's
sabotage. And she was at least trying to give the impression that she
was never mortal. Hmm... I'm reminded of what Kragar said of the
Demon: "he made it somewhere, and declared that to be the top."
Another possibility: Verra was somehow involved in creating/adapting
the Paths/Halls, and so _her_ blood lets people leave. The arguement
over who created the Paths is due to the fact that "created" doesn't
really apply in this situation, and the gods have difficulty
explaining this to mortals (I've already given my opinion of "god-like
intellectual abilities").
You know, I really should have my books handy when making these posts.
--KG
Michael S. Schiffer
>...
>Still, I didn't think we had any evidence of gods before Verra's
>sabotage.
I don't know if it counts as "evidence", but IIRC, Vlad reports
Aliera's description of the creation of the Great Sea of Chaos as
something to the effect of "the Jenoine were gone, we got a few new
gods", etc. This implies to me that there were gods before the Great
Sea was created. On the other hand, it's not explicit, and Aliera's
overall reliability has been called into question in any case.
Especially when she's talking about family matters-- if she's got
problems with accurately recounting the circumstances of Adron's
Disaster, then Mom's early activities may also be a trouble spot.
Hmm... it only now occurs to me that Aliera is the daughter of the only
two individuals directly responsible for the creation of Seas of Chaos.
If I were Zerika, I'd be tempted to have her killed just on general
principle. (At least if I could cover my tracks-- it probably wouldn't
be good for the Empire to have Verra mad at it. And, of course, if
Paarfi's at all correct, the Emperor trying to kill Aliera is
exactly what precipitated Adron's Disaster.)
Thomas Yan
Michael S. Schiffer <ms...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
><3B841C79...@worldnet.att.net>:
>>...
>>Still, I didn't think we had any evidence of gods before Verra's
>>sabotage.
>
>I don't know if it counts as "evidence", but IIRC, Vlad reports
>Aliera's description of the creation of the Great Sea of Chaos as
>something to the effect of "the Jenoine were gone, we got a few new
>gods", etc. This implies to me that there were gods before the Great
>Sea was created. On the other hand, it's not explicit, and Aliera's
>overall reliability has been called into question in any case.
Yup, I noticed the same thing in _Jhereg_, but Sethra says there were
not in _Issola_, p35, pp36-37.
>Especially when she's talking about family matters-- if she's got
>problems with accurately recounting the circumstances of Adron's
>Disaster, then Mom's early activities may also be a trouble spot.
-snip-
Plus, VerraMom has her own spin about the Jenoine and related events,
which Sethra is careful to warn Vlad of. I cannot remember if Aliera
has or has not made a similar warning.
Plus, besides Aliera's unreliability regarding her unreliable Mom, I
trust Sethra more.
Plus, _Issola_ was written much later than _Jhereg_, giving Brust more
time to figure things out. :)
cave deum
>> ha meg nem haltak" {huh?}
>I wonder if it's "And if they have not died, then they are living there
>still," which Brust has given as a stock phrase for ending Hungarian
>folk tales. It's probably something similar-- an online Hungarian
>dictionary gives "boldogan éltek mig meg nem haltak" as "they lived
>happily ever after."
I found "Es boldogan eltek, amig meg nem haltak" translated as "they
lived happily, until they died", so i believe you are correct.
rone
--
Looking for God's underpants since 1985. <ro...@ennui.org>
David Silberstein
Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <GIGM9...@kithrup.com>,
>David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>Answers to some of the questions raised. The answers might not be
>>the correct ones, but there you go.
>
>Thanks! But you've provided so many answers, that I'm just going to
>silently delete them, rather than pepper the text below with ellipses
>or "snip"'s.
>
>>In article <9lvdtc$qb4$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
>>Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>** {Bolk = horse in Legend died? How survive -- simultaneous
>>> manifestation?
>>
>>He has succesive incarnations, as he says at the end.
>
>I was going to say that still doesn't answer the question, but I now
>realize that it might partly do so: *re*incarnations? Awfully fast
>growth cycle (this time at least) if so!
>
Not exactly, I think. I guess this is why I see him as being some
sort of God (or demon): his manifestations are *not* natural, and
are therefore not bound by any rules other than those of the Gods
(or demons).
>
>>>** pp50-51 ** [bye dragon!] {not Devera?}
>>> {but perhaps Devera could survive death of 1 of her manifestations!}
>>
>>Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon...
>
>Heh. Hm, Devera arrived "too early" -- so, did she stick around and
>wait it out, or did she jump forward in time? If she stuck around
>(possible, but unlikely?), perhaps she turned into a dragon to amuse
>herself while waiting (unlikely, but possible).
I can't see it that way. She amuses herself by bopping around space
and time, (and between universes, assuming her appearances in other
Brust works are canonical). She turns into a dragon when facing
a threat that scares the Gods spitless.
The dragon in _BP_ acted like an wild animal, not an intelligent
entity. It certainly didn't act like Devera.
>>>pp168-180. ch11: "The Stable"
>>>
>>>** p180
>>>** "brain fever"? {Easterners only? _Orca_: nothing Dragaeran
>>> by that name?}
>>
>>Neither Vlad not Miklos is a physicker. Do you say "rhinoviral
>>infection" or "cold"?
>
>However, I think "brain fever" is pretty descriptive. I find it
>significant that Hwdf'rjaanci didn't respond with something like
>"brain fever, what's that? do you mean scarlet fever or meningitis?"
>or "don't be silly, only Easterners get scarlet fever and those kinds
>of ills".
>
I don't think is was significant. She's a grouchy old physicker,
and I think she was just using "There's no such thing as brain
fever" as another way of saying "'Brain fever' is a uselessly
vague term". IOW, she can't possibly diagnose or treat someone
with just that information.
Damien Raphael Sullivan
>>** {Bolk = horse in Legend died? How survive -- simultaneous manifestation?
May as well ask how Verra survived being killed.
>>** p39 ** "yellow jerkin, green tunic, brown leggings" {colors mean what?}
>I thought this one was fairly obvious - they're the colors of House
Indeed.
>I think it is perhaps plausible that Miklos could turn a tree into a
>raft, while Vlad might not be able - Teckla would presumably have spells
>for more useful activities, as compared to flashy stuff like
>teleportation.
Hmm, good point. (We might still note he knows more than Savn.) But there's
also the point I've made, which is that Vlad in Athyra uses magic a lot more
than he tells us about in his own stories.
>>** pp50-51 ** [bye dragon!] {not Devera?}
>> {but perhaps Devera could survive death of 1 of her manifestations!}
>Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon...
Indeed.
>>pp53-66. ch4: "The Splinter"
>>** p53 ** {chapter title/imagery: "Splinter" means or refers to what?}
>I suspect it might be more political allegory...
Andor the bourgeois is subject to minor problems, and runs to the priesthood
or the intellectual for solutions.
>I think that just means Verra recognized her demon parentage,
>whether that means Dragaeran or whatever.
It means demon. "I'm not human. I'm not elf. My father was--" And earlier
she remembers her father assuming his true shape to torment her mother.
And Aliera says humans and Dragaerans can't interbreed, and I'll trust her on
that until otherwise indicated.
>She's hooked in deep to the Orb, and depends on it.
So why did she have to leave? Is the Orb blocked from Fenario, or just from
the New Palace?
I noted that the statue description supports your idea about Fenario being a
place of power for Verra, or something. Well-preserved (although it _is_
granite and marble, not sandstone) and Miklos feels power in it. And it
crumbles when Verra is banished.
-xx- Damien X-)
Thomas Yan
In article <GII9F...@kithrup.com>,
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <9m0srr$kg6$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
>Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>>In article <GIGM9...@kithrup.com>,
>>David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>** pp50-51 ** [bye dragon!] {not Devera?}
>>>> {but perhaps Devera could survive death of 1 of her manifestations!}
>>>
>>>Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon...
>>
>>Heh. Hm, Devera arrived "too early" -- so, did she stick around and
>>wait it out, or did she jump forward in time? If she stuck around
>>(possible, but unlikely?), perhaps she turned into a dragon to amuse
>>herself while waiting (unlikely, but possible).
>
>I can't see it that way. She amuses herself by bopping around space
>and time, (and between universes, assuming her appearances in other
>Brust works are canonical). She turns into a dragon when facing
>a threat that scares the Gods spitless.
Hm. If she didn't stick around, then her bopping raises the question:
Why didn't she just bop out, instead of waiting to see Miklos before
leaving? I guess it's because, having met him and seen the events,
she wants to say good-bye and offer what reassurances she can about
Brigitta and her daughter.
Devera comes across to me as fairly truthful (yeah, she omits some
data, but notice when she first meets Miklos, she says things like
"sort of", rather than lie and say "yes"). Otherwise, I would wonder
if perhaps she *had* arrived on time, and then decided to backtrack to
meet Miklos. (Uh oh, time paradoxes, ....)
>The dragon in _BP_ acted like an wild animal, not an intelligent
>entity. It certainly didn't act like Devera.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Devera, but (maybe you should avert
your eyes now :) her apparent truthfulness notwithstanding, perhaps
she was having fun pretending to be a wild animal.
>>>>pp168-180. ch11: "The Stable"
>>>>
>>>>** p180
>>>>** "brain fever"? {Easterners only? _Orca_: nothing Dragaeran
>>>> by that name?}
>>>
>>>Neither Vlad not Miklos is a physicker. Do you say "rhinoviral
>>>infection" or "cold"?
>>
>>However, I think "brain fever" is pretty descriptive. I find it
>>significant that Hwdf'rjaanci didn't respond with something like
>>"brain fever, what's that? do you mean scarlet fever or meningitis?"
>>or "don't be silly, only Easterners get scarlet fever and those kinds
>>of ills".
>
>I don't think is was significant. She's a grouchy old physicker,
>and I think she was just using "There's no such thing as brain
>fever" as another way of saying "'Brain fever' is a uselessly
>vague term". IOW, she can't possibly diagnose or treat someone
>with just that information.
I'll give you grouchy, but although I currently can't agree with that
shorthand/alternative interpretation, I can elaborate on it.
Perhaps, as you suggest, even more than the real-word contemporary
inclination to confuse "flu" with other ailments, Dragaerans *do* use
the term "brain fever" as a catch-all term for many conditions. The
physicker then might be annoyed at the frequent popular (mis)use of
such a term, so "no such thing" is not only shorthand for "uselessly
vague", but rather "damagingly misleading nonsense".
Justin Fang
Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>So why did she have to leave? Is the Orb blocked from Fenario, or just from
>the New Palace?
I would guess Fenario, same as Verra (who is, after all, the goddess of
magic).
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <9m0srr$kg6$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
> Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
> >In article <GIGM9...@kithrup.com>,
> >David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
_Brokedown Palace_ and _Issola_ spoilers
[Devera as a dragon]
> >>
> >>Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon...
> >
> >Heh. Hm, Devera arrived "too early" -- so, did she stick around and
> >wait it out, or did she jump forward in time? If she stuck around
> >(possible, but unlikely?), perhaps she turned into a dragon to amuse
> >herself while waiting (unlikely, but possible).
>
> I can't see it that way. She amuses herself by bopping around space
> and time, (and between universes, assuming her appearances in other
> Brust works are canonical). She turns into a dragon when facing
> a threat that scares the Gods spitless.
>
> The dragon in _BP_ acted like an wild animal, not an intelligent
> entity. It certainly didn't act like Devera.
Well, I didn't think the dragon in _Issola_ acted like her either,
but then, I'm still in denial about sweet little Devera messily
devouring* someone.
* Though I love the fact I now have an excuse to use that phase :)
--KG
Louann Miller
<kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_Brokedown Palace_ and _Issola_ spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Devera as a dragon]
>Well, I didn't think the dragon in _Issola_ acted like her either,
>but then, I'm still in denial about sweet little Devera messily
>devouring* someone.
>
>* Though I love the fact I now have an excuse to use that phase :)
I thought the dragon was Adron?
Kate Nepveu
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:13:22 GMT, Konrad Gaertner
> <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
_Issola_ spoilers.
> >[Devera as a dragon]
> >Well, I didn't think the dragon in _Issola_ acted like her either,
> >but then, I'm still in denial about sweet little Devera messily
> >devouring* someone.
> >* Though I love the fact I now have an excuse to use that phase :)
> I thought the dragon was Adron?
Wasn't Adron _in_ the Sea? And it was a "her."
Me, I don't know when it was established that Devera was the dragon,
but whatever.
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"The most courageous act is still to think for yourself. Aloud."
--Coco Chanel
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Louann Miller (loua...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:13:22 GMT, Konrad Gaertner
> > <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> _Issola_ spoilers.
>
> > >[Devera as a dragon]
> > >Well, I didn't think the dragon in _Issola_ acted like her either,
> > >but then, I'm still in denial about sweet little Devera messily
> > >devouring* someone.
>
> > >* Though I love the fact I now have an excuse to use that phase :)
>
> > I thought the dragon was Adron?
>
> Wasn't Adron _in_ the Sea? And it was a "her."
>
> Me, I don't know when it was established that Devera was the dragon,
> but whatever.
Brust said so:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=3B565028.844182AD%40dreamcafe.com
BTW, the Damien/Monty Devera FAQ needs some cleaning up: for _Issola_,
it describes the darkness instead of the dragon, and all the later
books' appearances are italicized (looks like someone forgot a <\I>
after 'Phoenix Guards').
--KG
Kate Nepveu
> Kate Nepveu wrote:
> > _Issola_ spoilers.
> > Me, I don't know when it was established that Devera was the dragon,
> > but whatever.
Oh.
That would count as being established, yes...
Thomas Yan
Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>David Silberstein wrote:
_Orca_, _Brokedown Palace_, _Issola_, and ex cathedra [*] spoilers
[*] are all of these collected in a single place somewhere?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Devera as a dragon]
>> The dragon in _BP_ acted like an wild animal, not an intelligent
>> entity. It certainly didn't act like Devera.
>
>Well, I didn't think the dragon in _Issola_ acted like her either,
>but then, I'm still in denial about sweet little Devera messily
>devouring* someone.
>
>* Though I love the fact I now have an excuse to use that phase :)
(Hee, there you go: She was practicing in BP for I! :)
(In one of Zelazny's 2nd Amber series, Merlin muses to himself how it
takes a human-formed person who shapeshifts into an animal a lot of
practice to get good at using all of that animal's capabilities.)
Hm. Devera shape-shifting (or re-manifesting, or whatever the process
is) as a dragon is rather more impressive than the shape-shifting
abilities we've seen of Sethra. Not only is the shape rather
different, but I'm also assuming there is a huge difference in mass --
which comes from where, another universe, and/or some arcane form of
magic we haven't heard about yet?
David Silberstein
>
>pp53-66. ch4: "The Splinter"
>** p53 ** {chapter title/imagery: "Splinter" means or refers to what?}
>
dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>
>I suspect it might be more political allegory...
>
In article <9m28ub$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>Andor the bourgeois is subject to minor problems, and runs
>to the priesthood or the intellectual for solutions.
>
Indeed. And note that the splinter is from the palace itself -
the "small problem" is in the political structure.
Laszlo doesn't go to anyone for help with splinters (the
aristocracy looks after itself). Vilmos goes to Andor from
time to time (the proletariats will sometimes go to the
bourgeoisie for assitance). And immediately after that it
says that some who have splinters don't need to go to
anyone else (the proletariat doesn't need the help of the
bourgeoisie, if only they would realize their own power)
(and the notion of huge, powerful Vilmos going to poor,
feckless Andor does seem a little... silly).
David Silberstein
Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>I think that just means Verra recognized her demon parentage,
>>whether that means Dragaeran or whatever.
>
>It means demon. "I'm not human. I'm not elf. My father was--"
>And earlier she remembers her father assuming his true shape to
>torment her mother.
>
>And Aliera says humans and Dragaerans can't interbreed, and I'll
>trust her on that until otherwise indicated.
>
Well, OK. I'll admit that my notion has no other basis than me
drawing lines between what may be unconnected dots.
But Aliera's reliability, especially on biological sciences, has
been called into question by Sethra's lecture on where Dragaerans
came from (which contradicts some of Aliera's statements), and by
Steve Brust saying that she was being sloppy about events surrounding
Adron's Disaster.
I get the feeling that she's really, really hasty, quick to say
things or jump to conclusions. Morrolan is more stable and
reliable, and aware of his own flaws, despite being slightly
younger (or a lot younger, if you count her time in Limbo, which
I don't).
Anyway, we'll find out when Vlad Norathar gets genescanned to
confirm his paternity. :)
>>She's hooked in deep to the Orb, and depends on it.
>
>So why did she have to leave? Is the Orb blocked from Fenario,
>or just from the New Palace?
>
I'm still not sure about this one (as you can probably tell from
my wildly changing theories).
Here's a notion: it would have been... inappropriate to continue
to rely on sorcery (power from afar), when part of what was
driving the revolution was the desire for self-reliance and
independance.
Here's another notion: Sorcery would have been a way for Verra to
return to Fenario - either its use would be an implicit invitation,
or she might have used Brigitta's Orb link to influence her until
Brigitta actually invited her. Remember how sneaky she can be
sometimes - frex, how she got Vlad in _Phoenix_?
>
>I noted that the statue description supports your idea about Fenario
>being a place of power for Verra, or something. Well-preserved
>(although it _is_ granite and marble, not sandstone) and Miklos
>feels power in it. And it crumbles when Verra is banished.
>
Indeed...
David Silberstein
Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <3B8564BC...@worldnet.att.net>,
>Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>>David Silberstein wrote:
>
>_Orca_, _Brokedown Palace_, _Issola_, and ex cathedra [*] spoilers
>
>[*] are all of these collected in a single place somewhere?
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[Devera as a dragon]
>
>>> The dragon in _BP_ acted like an wild animal, not an intelligent
>>> entity. It certainly didn't act like Devera.
>>
>>Well, I didn't think the dragon in _Issola_ acted like her either,
>>but then, I'm still in denial about sweet little Devera messily
>>devouring* someone.
>>
>>* Though I love the fact I now have an excuse to use that phase :)
>
>(Hee, there you go: She was practicing in BP for I! :)
No, no, no! Oh, and another counterargument: why would she let
her body be eaten by jhereg, hmmm?
>(In one of Zelazny's 2nd Amber series, Merlin muses to himself how it
>takes a human-formed person who shapeshifts into an animal a lot of
>practice to get good at using all of that animal's capabilities.)
>
>Hm. Devera shape-shifting (or re-manifesting, or whatever the process
>is) as a dragon is rather more impressive than the shape-shifting
>abilities we've seen of Sethra. Not only is the shape rather
>different, but I'm also assuming there is a huge difference in mass --
>which comes from where, another universe, and/or some arcane form of
>magic we haven't heard about yet?
What if it was possesion rather than shape-shifting?
Although I can't help but wonder if it was a little more than
*just* a dragon (in _Issola_, not the one in BP). A very strong
human (Vilmos) could beat a an ordinary dragon - does that mean
that he could have beaten a Jenoine? Of course, Devera is, after
all, Devera, which probably means she could be a lot more powerful
than an ordinary dragon.
David Silberstein
Good point. I like this notion; it "feels" like the way Verra would
operate.
I was wondering to myself why Verra didn't just offer to do a blood
transfusion herself, but as you point out, there's peer pressure from
the other Lords of Judgement. It probably Just Isn't Done.
This way, she can disclaim involvment ("Hey, I had no idea he would
do *that*!"), and still get what she wants.
Damien Raphael Sullivan
I blame Monty for the darkness, and have clarified that; also added the
head-shaking. I forgot the </i>, yeah. Fixed. Also added the url above.
-xx- Damien X-)
Fred Galvin
> In article <Xns9105CCFB956...@209.155.56.81>,
> Michael S. Schiffer <ms...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu (Thomas Yan) wrote in
> ><9lvdtc$qb4$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>:
> >>** "... es meg ma is elnek [és még ma is élnek]
> >> ha meg nem haltak" {huh?}
> >I wonder if it's "And if they have not died, then they are living there
> >still," which Brust has given as a stock phrase for ending Hungarian
> >folk tales.
Right. Word for word: "and still today too live-they if have not
died-they". Well, "meg" (the one with the short e) is not exactly
"have", it's a separable prefix and not exactly translatable.
Damien Raphael Sullivan
>In article <9m28ub$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think that just means Verra recognized her demon parentage,
>>>whether that means Dragaeran or whatever.
>>
>>It means demon. "I'm not human. I'm not elf. My father was--"
>>And earlier she remembers her father assuming his true shape to
>>torment her mother.
It occurs to me that Brigitta's demon might not be the same as Sethra's
demons. A shapeshifting magical entity is 'demon' to Fenarians, but possibly
different than the controllable bilocatables of _Issola_.
>>And Aliera says humans and Dragaerans can't interbreed, and I'll
>>trust her on that until otherwise indicated.
>But Aliera's reliability, especially on biological sciences, has
>been called into question by Sethra's lecture on where Dragaerans
>I get the feeling that she's really, really hasty, quick to say
>things or jump to conclusions. Morrolan is more stable and
True. OTOH, interbreeding may be something she's actively researched, vs. a
historical question she can be wilfully blind on.
And, of course, plausibility is with her on this one (as it was against her on
Dragaerans and humans not being related at all -- and frankly I wonder about
Verra.) Consider the different development and lifecycles and biology of
humans and elfs. Now imagine trying to get them to match after a random
chromosome mix. I think the Jenoine would have had to work carefully to make
that work, and that seems inconsistent with setting up different strains of
animal-crossbreeds.
>Anyway, we'll find out when Vlad Norathar gets genescanned to
>confirm his paternity. :)
You think the kid might be half-elf? I thought you were talking about
Brigitta.
>Here's a notion: it would have been... inappropriate to continue
>to rely on sorcery (power from afar), when part of what was
Right, I can see that.
-xx- Damien X-)
David Silberstein
I'm reiterating my scenario from here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=GI00Fw.IAH%40kithrup.com
Namely, since "demon" *might* be what the Easterners call a
Dragaeran who lives in the East (from _Jhereg_, when Vlad is
objecting to the Demon's suggestion that Mellar fled to the East),
Brigitta *might* therefore be half-elf.
Since Cawti is Brigitta's daughter (per Steve Brust), she would
be quarter-elf, and therefore Vlad Norathar might have sufficient
Dragaeran heritage to show up in a genescan.
But like I said, it's a theory derived from the interpretation of
one word, which, like "God", has very different meanings depending
on who is saying it, and who they're saying it about.
Damien Raphael Sullivan
>In article <9m6dd0$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>>>In article <9m28ub$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>>>Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>>>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I think that just means Verra recognized her demon parentage,
>>>>>whether that means Dragaeran or whatever.
>>>>
>>>>It means demon. "I'm not human. I'm not elf. My father was--"
>I'm reiterating my scenario from here:
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=GI00Fw.IAH%40kithrup.com
Ahah. You take my line, which I thought was decisive, and turn it around as
"if she's half-elf, she won't be human or elf."
And even argue that Brigitta is Margit's daughter... oh, the last Interlude
pretty much says that flat out. Although I'm not sure what she learned, too
late.
>Namely, since "demon" *might* be what the Easterners call a
>Dragaeran who lives in the East (from _Jhereg_, when Vlad is
I'm still skeptical. The Fenarians seem to be able to tell the difference
between a demon and an elf. When the last Interlude talks about "demons
everywhere, they gibber and they squeak" I have trouble believing it means
elfs.
From google:
> set during a 5 year period *300* years prior to _BP_, when
> the Northmen besieged Fenario.
Was it that specified? I caught "in your grandfather's grandfather's
grandfather's time, which would be as little as 120 years ago, on the low end.
(40 years per grandfather). Do we believe Sandor lived long enough to make
Margit being 320 plausible?
The line about "it's worth it for a glimpse of Margit, or so Miska tells us"
is bloody odd. The Miska Miklos meets probably shouldn't live another 25
years... naturally. Well, not that that need stop Devera if she's doing
temporal detective work.
Miska tells Devera to go look up Margit? And who is Devera interested in,
anyway? Cawti's origins? Vlad Norathar's family? Her grandmother's
banishment?
-xx- Damien X-)
David Silberstein
In article <9mf41o$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
[snippage]
>>I'm reiterating my scenario from here:
>>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=GI00Fw.IAH%40kithrup.com
>
>Ahah. You take my line, which I thought was decisive, and turn
>it around as "if she's half-elf, she won't be human or elf."
>
>And even argue that Brigitta is Margit's daughter... oh, the
>last Interlude pretty much says that flat out. Although I'm
>not sure what she learned, too late.
>
>>Namely, since "demon" *might* be what the Easterners call a
>>Dragaeran who lives in the East (from _Jhereg_, when Vlad is
>
>I'm still skeptical. The Fenarians seem to be able to tell
>the difference between a demon and an elf.
>
Then why would Vlad suggest otherwise?
>When the last Interlude talks about "demons everywhere, they
>gibber and they squeak" I have trouble believing it means elfs.
And you have every right to be skeptical, since it isn't stated
anywhere specifically, and I'm not 100% certain myself. I can't
fit in the gibbering and squeaking with a "god who is controllable"
either, so I don't know what to make of that part. But "demons
everywhere" might just mean that there are more Dragaerans around
than most Fenarians realise.
>From google:
>> set during a 5 year period *300* years prior to _BP_, when
>> the Northmen besieged Fenario.
>
>Was it that specified? I caught "in your grandfather's grandfather's
>grandfather's time, which would be as little as 120 years ago, on the
>low end. (40 years per grandfather).
Miska's tale to Miklós (about the unnamed girl who had the Northman
for a boyfriend, and who married the demon at the end) is set during
the time when the Northmen besieged the castle, which is 300 years
before (BP, pg 5, and elsewhere). The tale in the interlude (about
Margit who threw a glove) takes place during the time of "Tividar
the Renewer", which *might* mean that he renewed the place after the
Northmen were expelled.
>
>Do we believe Sandor lived long enough to make Margit being 320
>plausible?
>
I don't know. Perhaps the answer is that there's more than one
girl (and one demon) being talked about, so that the unnamed
girl is not Margit herself, but one of her ancestors, perhaps
even her mother? So this girl marries one demon (Dragaeran),
and produces Margit, and Margit marries another Dragaeran, and
gives birth to Brigitta?
Incidentally, one of the things that I've been wondering about
ever since finding out that Morrolan was raised as an Easterner
was whether *he* might perhaps be one of the "demons" in the
above scenario.
But really, part of the problem is that Fenarians seem to just
love taking events and making stories out of them, which may
be less than accurate. One of the stories is about how the
former King, János VI, found his wife Teréz, kidnapped (?)
by elfs. Now, I can see how a taltos bull might be involved,
especially since Bölk says that that is what his previous
shape had been, and there might even have been some fiddling
involved, but the rest just sounds apocryphal. It's too bad
we couldn't get that story in *his* terms while he was alive.
It would be interesting to hear how Bölk would describe it.
[snip stuff about Devera I can't even begin to speculate about]
[*] Unaccented characters: Miklos, Janos, Terez, Bolk
Damien Raphael Sullivan
>Spoilers for BROKEDOWN PALACE (and also ISSOLA)
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>In article <9mf41o$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>>>Namely, since "demon" *might* be what the Easterners call a
>>>Dragaeran who lives in the East (from _Jhereg_, when Vlad is
>>
>>I'm still skeptical. The Fenarians seem to be able to tell
>>the difference between a demon and an elf.
>>
>Then why would Vlad suggest otherwise?
Extending the idea of "unreliable narrators", just how much do you want to
lean on Vlad's knowledge of Fenarians in _Jhereg_?
I trust the third-person narrator of _BP_ to have accurately rendered Fenarian
stories, in which 'demon' and 'elf' seem to be used distinctly. Although it's
definitely not at all clear what 'demon' is.
-xx- Damien X-)
Chris Farmer
(Damien Raphael Sullivan) wrote:
> dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
> >Spoilers for BROKEDOWN PALACE (and also ISSOLA)
> >
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> >In article <9mf41o$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
> >Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>
> >>>Namely, since "demon" *might* be what the Easterners call a
> >>>Dragaeran who lives in the East (from _Jhereg_, when Vlad is
> >>
> >>I'm still skeptical. The Fenarians seem to be able to tell
> >>the difference between a demon and an elf.
> >>
> >Then why would Vlad suggest otherwise?
>
> Extending the idea of "unreliable narrators", just how much do you want
> to
> lean on Vlad's knowledge of Fenarians in _Jhereg_?
and to throw another datapoint in - at one point Kragar mentions
checking out Vlad and surprises Vlad by stating that there are different
tribes of Easterners. I suspect Vlad does not really know Easterners
from the East, but rather mostly those who live in the Empire.
Chris
--
note spam blockers in effect, and i work @home!
David Silberstein
Chris Farmer <chrisfarmer_S_P_A_M@A_W_A_Y_work.com.invalid> wrote:
>
Spoilers for DRAGON
>
>and to throw another datapoint in - at one point Kragar mentions
>checking out Vlad and surprises Vlad by stating that there are different
>tribes of Easterners. I suspect Vlad does not really know Easterners
>from the East, but rather mostly those who live in the Empire.
>
I thought Vlad was suprised Kragar knew that much about Vlad's past
without Vlad having told Kragar anything about it.
David Silberstein
In article <9n8rhs$i...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>>
>>In article <9mf41o$n...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>>Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>
>>>>Namely, since "demon" *might* be what the Easterners call a
>>>>Dragaeran who lives in the East (from _Jhereg_, when Vlad is
>>>
>>>I'm still skeptical. The Fenarians seem to be able to tell
>>>the difference between a demon and an elf.
>>>
>>Then why would Vlad suggest otherwise?
>
>Extending the idea of "unreliable narrators", just how much do
>you want to lean on Vlad's knowledge of Fenarians in _Jhereg_?
>
Well, besides the obvious "It's just a notion", I do have
a certain chain of logic, in about this. You may not agree
with it, but here it is:
[0] BROKEDOWN PALACE was published 3 years after JHEREG.
I think it likely that Mr. S. K. Z. Brust had a sort
of continuity of concept in mind when he had Vlad use
the term "demon" in JHEREG, and then used it again in
BROKEDOWN PALACE.
[1] Fenarian "demons" are cross-fertile with Humans (Easterners).
A Fenarian "demon" (henceforth referred to as F-demons)
mated with Fenarian female and produced fertile offspring
(Brigitta).
[from BROKEDOWN PALACE, and authorial exposition on
Cawti being Brigitta's daughter]
[1a] Dragaerans are derived from Humans (Easterners)
[from Sethra, in ISSOLA - contradicting Aliera in JHEREG]
Hypothesis: Dragaerans may be cross-fertile with Humans.
[2] F-demons can change their appearance. We don't know whether
it's illusion or shape-change.
[from BROKEDOWN PALACE]
[2a] Some Dragaerans can change their appearance (at least one
alleged shape-changer (Sethra), and several references to
sorcerous illusion casting).
[illusion casting: JHEREG - Vlad takes the place of
one of Mellar's bodyguards; YENDI - an assassin seems
to be someone Vlad knows, but still trips Melestav's
suspicions]
[shape-changing: ORCA - Kiera (maybe; I'm still not
100% sure about this) ]
I realize that *none* of the above constitutes proof, or even
good evidence, but let's look at some more possibilites, in
decreasing order of likeliness:
[A] Hypothesis: An F-demon is the same as the Dragaeran theological
entity (controllable God). Yet this doesn't disprove the thesis -
the only known Demon at this point is the Necromancer, who as it
happens is also a Dragaeran. Of course, a Demon might also be
able to spawn children without being actually cross-fertile; that
is, using sorcery. Uncertain probability.
[B] Hypothesis: An F-demon is something unique to Fenario, which we
have not seen in the Vlad/Khaavren books, and which is cross-
fertile with Humans. Unknown probability, but I think only a
little less probable than [A].
[C] Hypothesis: An F-demon is a Serioli. Possible, but only if
Serioli are also (modified?) H. Sapiens (which they might be,
if they are a colony that was on Dragaera so long that they
forgot their origins by the time the next batch came along
(some of whom were modified by the Jenoine). But I note
that there is no data of Serioli using sorcery to change
their appearance. Unlikely at best.
[D] Hypothesis: An F-demon is a cat-centaur. While I suspect that
cat-centaurs are also modified H. Sapiens (much more so than
the Dragaerans), there's also no proof of sorcerous use, and
much less basis for assuming cross-fertility. Highly
improbable.
Anyway, this is going to go on my list of "things to bug Steve
Brust about", but I'll wait for VISCOUNT to come out before
doing so.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Spoilers for, um, _Phoenix_, a little _Issola_ and anything else
> dealing with Aliera's family.
>
>
> [A] Hypothesis: An F-demon is the same as the Dragaeran theological
> entity (controllable God). Yet this doesn't disprove the thesis -
> the only known Demon at this point is the Necromancer, who as it
> happens is also a Dragaeran. Of course, a Demon might also be
> able to spawn children without being actually cross-fertile; that
> is, using sorcery. Uncertain probability.
Nitpick: The Necromancer _seems_ Dragaeran. We have no evidence she
is/was truly Dragaeran. Note that Aliera is also 'obviously'
Dragaeran (except for height), dispite being half divine-non-Dragaeran
(Verra may not even have been Homo Sapiens derived).
--KG
Chris Farmer
Silberstein) wrote:
I thought it was both - that Kragar would check up on him, and that the
Easterners were not one, monolithic entity like Dragaera.
However, if he had thought a bit more, it might not have been so
surprising - Elde Island and Greenacre (?? - the two islands that are
occasionally at war w/the Empire) are not part of the Empire, and their
residents have no house.
Chris Farmer
Although speculation on the genetics and heiritability of various traits
in a fictitious world is probably totally unresolvable, I can't help but
wonder how the Verra-Adron cross worked. Verra has at least two
non-trivial "mutations/adaptations" - the extra joint on each finger,
and her eyes being to high on her face (not even counting the numerous
"god" adaptations ;-) . Aliera has neither, as shown by her being a
completely gorgeous Dragaeran.
(which leads into a completely unrelated tangent -- in 500YA lust for
Aliera was a mjr part of the story, and also Paarfi mentions all the
poetry about her. Has this lessoned by Vlad's time? or does it just
not intrude upon his pt of view?)
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <3B991D88...@worldnet.att.net>, gae...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > David Silberstein wrote:
> > >
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> (which leads into a completely unrelated tangent -- in 500YA lust for
> Aliera was a mjr part of the story, and also Paarfi mentions all the
> poetry about her. Has this lessoned by Vlad's time? or does it just
> not intrude upon his pt of view?)
Maybe most people haven't heard yet that she's back. And, Vlad
tells us that she uses the private rooms (in Castle Black) often.
--KG
David Silberstein
Chris Farmer <chrisfarmer_S_P_A_M@A_W_A_Y_work.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> David Silberstein wrote:
>> >
>> > Spoilers for, um, _Phoenix_, a little _Issola_ and anything else
>> > dealing with Aliera's family.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> >
>> > [A] Hypothesis: An F-demon is the same as the Dragaeran theological
>> > entity (controllable God). Yet this doesn't disprove the thesis -
>> > the only known Demon at this point is the Necromancer, who as it
>> > happens is also a Dragaeran. Of course, a Demon might also be
>> > able to spawn children without being actually cross-fertile; that
>> > is, using sorcery. Uncertain probability.
>>
>> Nitpick: The Necromancer _seems_ Dragaeran. We have no evidence she
>> is/was truly Dragaeran. Note that Aliera is also 'obviously'
>> Dragaeran (except for height), dispite being half divine-non-Dragaeran
>> (Verra may not even have been Homo Sapiens derived).
>
>
>Although speculation on the genetics and heiritability of various traits
>in a fictitious world is probably totally unresolvable, I can't help but
>wonder how the Verra-Adron cross worked. Verra has at least two
>non-trivial "mutations/adaptations" - the extra joint on each finger,
>and her eyes being to high on her face (not even counting the numerous
>"god" adaptations ;-) . Aliera has neither, as shown by her being a
>completely gorgeous Dragaeran.
>
Speaking of Aliera's parentage, I spotted something in ISSOLA which
may or may not hint at something:
[ISSOLA, pg 235] "The dragon [...] stopped as if it had struck
a wall, rolled over [...] and then came to its feet once more,
and shook its head in a very human gesture."
[ISSOLA, pg 236] "Then Aliera went flying backward [...], landing
next to the dragon. [...] she put her hand on the dragon's head,
and, using it like a handhold, rose to her feet at once, shook
her head in a gesture terribly reminiscent of the dragon's [...]."
Now, it seems fairly clear to me that this head-shaking business,
juxtaposed so quickly while they were standing next to each other,
was an obvious hint in the direction of their relationship (as
revealed per S Brust). OK, fine. But then later on I noticed this:
[ISSOLA , pg 247] "Sethra knelt next to the Necromancer, who stirred
and shook her head as if to clear it -- positively the most human
thing I had ever seen her do."
Was SKZB trying to put in a subtle hint with this additional
headshake that the Necromancer is related to Aliera? Perhaps
even (assuming she *is* Dragaeran, and Verra is not) her true
(genetic) mother? I can see Verra wanting to create a product
of a powerful sorceress and a powerful sorceror, maybe asking
the Necromancer to donate an egg.
I note that Devera is very dissimilar in character to any of
her relatives that we've seen so far (Adron, Aliera, Kieron,
supposedly Verra). Perhaps she gets her good nature from
somewhere else?
And while I'm on the topic, I found myself wondering how
Aliera was accepted as a legitimate heir to Adron. Wouldn't
the question of where the mother is come up? But then again,
I could just see Verra herself showing up before the Dragon
Council, just *daring* them to try and rule Aliera illegitimate.
Council: "Uh... this council finds Aliera e'Kieron, fathered
by Adron e'Kieron and borne by, uh, Verra the Demon Goddess,
with e'Kieron dominant, to be a full member of the House of
the Dragon and heir to Lord Adron."
Verra: "Damn straight."
Infant Aliera: *smirk*
Just some thoughts. :-)