_Brokedown Palace_ and Verra
David Silberstein
What follows is some extrapolation and interpolation of the
history of _Brokedown Palace_, by Steven K. Z. Brust.
There will of course be spoilers for the entire book,
especially the ending.
Warning: This is all speculation and moonshine and non-canonical
musings. But hey, I hear Mr. Brust gets a kick out of this sort
of thing, so I'm going to write it all up anyway. Mr. Brust, enjoy.
The rest of humanity - Caveat Lector, and all that.
So. Spoiler Space for _Brokedown Palace_ begins here.
Accented character word equvalencies:
Miklós=Miklos
László=Laszlo
Sándor=Sandor
Bölk=Bolk
táltos=taltos
The real stuff begins here.
This deep rumination began with the Usenet discussion at this location:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=3B5E0672...@worldnet.att.net
In summary, Konrad originally wondered what Verra was _really_ doing
in Brokedown Palace. I was suggested that Verra was somehow tied to
the Palace, and that László was in a sense her high priest, defending
her abode religiously. Konrad wondered:
"Hmmm... but the palace wasn't the first palace, it was the fourth
(counting the hut and fort, see page 5). So what made the Broken
Palace more special than the hut, fort, and Old Palace?"
I suggested that Verra had gradually somehow infused the Palace with
her presence, starting with the original hut, saying "As the rulers
built up the castle, slowly but surely, they dedicated each part of
it to Verra, her essence somehow combining with the foundations and
walls.", and suggesting that she was sending sorcerous roots through
the building as it grew.
Konrad countered that: "[...] the Broken Palace didn't just grow
out of the hut; there was an Old Palace that was torn down to make
room for it. ", and his general contention seemed to be that Verra
was simply supporting the King, whose devotion to the Palace was
completely irrational, but not directly related to Verra's influence.
At the time, I wanted to re-read the book more carefully before
responding, but the article expired, and besides, I wanted to
speculate on more of the story besides addressing just that issue.
So firstly, responding directly to the issue of the Palace, I got
the impression (from pg 5 of BP) that the Old Palace had never
been pulled down (or at least not wholly), but rather, that the
current Palace had been built around it.
But even if it was torn down completely, I note that the current
Palace - the newest part, which is definitely decaying in the "now"
of the story - is 400 years old. I think that number may be very
significant. What *else* happened 400 years previously? Well, if
my guesstimates are correct (and they seem to be corroborated in
this timeline: http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt ), Adron's
Disaster occurred, and the Interregnum began.
Is seems like a plausible scenario that Verra, in a panic following
that upset, sought desperately for new places to invest herself in,
and at least one of them was in the East. Is there anything in the
text itself to support this interpretation? In Andor's dream of
Verra (BP pp. 59-60), she says that she has sanctified his home. I
think this summarizes her attitude towards the Palace - and I also
think she is too practical to consider something "sanctified"
unless she gets something (mana?) out of it.
And speaking of mana, the more I think about it, the more it seems
to me that something very unusual is going on in the Palace. 400
years is an awfully short time for a well-constructed building to
exist. There are many real-world castles and buildings that have
stood for as long or longer. Even the decrepit or destroyed
structures fell more to war or natural disasters, or were taken
apart by locals for building materials, rather than just falling
apart from the passing of time. Yet the Fenarian Castle's
foundations are crumbling - and why were they made of sandstone
in the first place?
So here's an extended speculative backstory to Brokedown Palace,
and the history of Fenario:
About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
and by extension, with the Empire. This treaty coincided with Verra
allying herself with a God (or Gods, or possibly Demon(s)) who looked
out for humans' (Easterners) interests. One of these Gods incarnated
in the form of a Horse, and this incarnation died during the exchange
of hostilities prior to the treaty (but I feel sure that he did continue
to exist). As part of the treaty and alliance, the location where Fenarr
lived was dedicated to Verra. Her statue was raised there, and every
structure built there took part in that dedication. Dedication to the
Goddess was not that difficult, and worshipping her was not an onerous
task, at first (and it was probably only the royal family that
worshipped her). She is not malign or cruel out of spite.
And all was well for five hundred years, until the catastrophe.
Adron's Disaster weakened Verra. Great effort had to be made to
*contain* the Lesser Sea of Chaos and prevent it from destroying the
Empire and the world. And what can she do if the Jenoine, perceiving
her weakness (and the weakening of the other Gods as well) try to
attack?
But there in the East, far away from the Empire, not knowing of the
disaster yet protected from it, there is a place of power dedicated
to *her*. A Palace is about to be built there... I am not sure if
she interferes at this point, yet it seems likely - perhaps she sends
dreams to the King, urging him to rush through the construction, even
if it means using shoddy materials (and who knows, maybe sandstone is
more appropriate for what *she* needs), and then she takes badly
needed power from the newly-built Palace.
I am not sure if the above is correct. Perhaps it isn't, or perhaps
there's something going on in addition to the above. There are
hints that the Palace has decayed more in the *recent* centuries
after the recovery of the Orb and the end of the Interregnum. As an
another scenario, consider this: Fenario was isolated from the
Empire during the Interregnum (you'll note that there is no mention
of trade with Faerie going on anymore, except far in the South), and
now that the Interregnum is over, Verra is trying to incorporate it
into the Empire, leeching the power to do so from the Castle, using
the above method. I got this notion from BP pg 8, which mentions the
Hand of Faerie (the Overcast), extending to cover all of Fenario
sometimes. Perhaps if Verra were to succeed, it would cover the
land permanently. It does tie in neatly with the my other notion,
that the táltos' role is to bring back the Sun, the Moon and the
Stars - in BP, the táltos prevents them from being taken away in the
first place.
I don't know what it is she takes from the Palace. Call it mana, call
it sorcerous energy derived from accelerated entropy. But take it
she does, and the Palace breaks down much faster than would have been
the case without her interference. (Note that sheer desperation may
have also been what drove her request/demand for human (or were those
Dragaeran?) sacrifices.)
At any rate the damage is already *done*. The Palace is decaying,
falling apart, and Verra is not helping nor relinquishing her hold
on Fenario. Perhaps she can't?
So some other Powers, who seem to have the interests of humans
(Easterners) at heart, oppose Verra. Note that this opposition
may be mutual, and may have been going on for a long time - Sándor,
who is in many ways Verra's representative, has always hated the
River (BP pg 160).
I just want to take a few paragraphs to point out how appropriate
these Powers seem to be:
- Verra is a God of the long-lived Dragaerans, and of their stable,
long-lived Empire, and she seems to be a reactionary, highly
static force in BP.
In complete contrast, the Gods (or whatever they are) of the
short-lived humans are very changable:
- the River flows and changes every moment. It seems to have a
personality and powers all its own, befriending those who
live along its shores, and healing Miklós (and maybe others?)
- the Horse named Wisdom changes physically, sometimes even into a
Bull (BP pg 104), and also dies and reincarnates (his 38th, as
noted on BP pg 246, being very different from his previous ones).
Also, I note that the Horse calls himself "Death" when speaking
to László and Sándor (BP pg 162), which reminded me of the Tarot
symbolism of the Death card, which is change, not necessarily
Death, although for those two, as well as for Verra herself, he
*was* Death, which is interesting - and there's also the
Apocalyptic symbolism in that he's a *pale* horse),
- the Tree is obviously the personification (arborification?) of
directed growth and transforming strength.
These entities may have other forms and other names - I can't help
but wonder if one of them is supposed to be Barlen, Verra's lover
and foe.
So this coalition of Powers - River, Horse, and Tree - decides to Do
Something about the situation. I don't know if any single one of them
would have been enough, yet working together (and including Miklós),
they break Verra's power *and* repair/replace the palace. Note that
even though this action ends Verra's ability to manifest in Fenario, it
seems to be percieved as a Good Thing (or at least, as regrettable but
Necessary) by Verra's own grand-daughter, and at the end, it seems
that Fenario is cut off completely from Verra's influence and the Power
of Faerie itself (although this last is extrapolating from Sándor being
blocked, which may have been an individual or one-time thing - perhaps
whatever was transforming the Palace at the time needed all available
energy, and Sándor was like a userspace app trying to run while root is
running a CPU hogging application).
Whoof. This took a long time to write, and I haven't even gotten
into Brigitta's backstory, or the political allegory I realized
was hidden in there, or the comparison I wanted to do with _The
Gypsy_...
Oh, well. Maybe another time, if anyone is interested.
Timothy A. McDaniel
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>What follows is some extrapolation and interpolation of the
>history of _Brokedown Palace_, by Steven K. Z. Brust.
>There will of course be spoilers for the entire book,
>especially the ending.
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> directed growth and transforming strength.
>Whoof. This took a long time to write, and I haven't even gotten
>into Brigitta's backstory, or the political allegory I realized
>was hidden in there
I recall reading once that _Brokedown Palace_ is an complete Marxist
allegory: the downfall of increasingly tottering and violent
capitalism and the revolution that establishes the communist state.
--
Tim McDaniel is tm...@jump.net; if that fail,
tm...@us.ibm.com is my work account.
"To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything
up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka....@hut.fi (Jukka Korpela)
Konrad Gaertner
>
> What follows is some extrapolation and interpolation of the
> history of _Brokedown Palace_, by Steven K. Z. Brust.
> There will of course be spoilers for the entire book,
> especially the ending.
>
> Warning: This is all speculation and moonshine and non-canonical
> musings. But hey, I hear Mr. Brust gets a kick out of this sort
> of thing, so I'm going to write it all up anyway. Mr. Brust, enjoy.
> The rest of humanity - Caveat Lector, and all that.
And if you are reading this, Mr. Brust, could you officially confirm
or deny that rumor about Miklos' daughter? Or at least give us an
official "No Comment"? This does affect the timing discussed below.
> So. Spoiler Space for _Brokedown Palace_ begins here.
>
> Accented character word equvalencies:
>
> Miklós=Miklos
>
> László=Laszlo
>
> Sándor=Sandor
>
> Bölk=Bolk
>
> táltos=taltos
My newsreader shows the accents correctly, but I haven't taken the
time to figure out how to insert them in my own text, so I'll just
use the unaccented versions. (Sorry, pedantic linguists)
There was something else (can't remember where, Bolk and Miklos
talking about how the palace was replaced last time) that I assumed
meant that _everything_ was replaced except maybe the furniture and,
of course, Verra's idol.
> But even if it was torn down completely, I note that the current
> Palace - the newest part, which is definitely decaying in the "now"
> of the story - is 400 years old. I think that number may be very
> significant. What *else* happened 400 years previously? Well, if
> my guesstimates are correct (and they seem to be corroborated in
> this timeline: http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt ), Adron's
> Disaster occurred, and the Interregnum began.
Alternative (in case the above rumor is true): there is mention in
I think _Teckla_ of a park memorial to some Fenarian event known as
the Exodus which I believe happened during the Interregnum.
> Is seems like a plausible scenario that Verra, in a panic following
> that upset, sought desperately for new places to invest herself in,
> and at least one of them was in the East. Is there anything in the
> text itself to support this interpretation? In Andor's dream of
> Verra (BP pp. 59-60), she says that she has sanctified his home. I
> think this summarizes her attitude towards the Palace - and I also
> think she is too practical to consider something "sanctified"
> unless she gets something (mana?) out of it.
Possibly, but we really don't know anything about where Verra gets
her power from, or even if she needs a continuous supply.
> And speaking of mana, the more I think about it, the more it seems
> to me that something very unusual is going on in the Palace. 400
> years is an awfully short time for a well-constructed building to
> exist. There are many real-world castles and buildings that have
> stood for as long or longer. Even the decrepit or destroyed
> structures fell more to war or natural disasters, or were taken
> apart by locals for building materials, rather than just falling
> apart from the passing of time. Yet the Fenarian Castle's
> foundations are crumbling - and why were they made of sandstone
> in the first place?
There are also many modern homes with significant structural damage
after only a decade.
> So here's an extended speculative backstory to Brokedown Palace,
> and the history of Fenario:
>
> About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
> local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
> and by extension, with the Empire.
This was supposedly a place where it was easy to cross the mountains,
at least at that time. Something must have changed since then since
the path Miklos used to leave couldn't have been used for raiding
horses.
And is this the pass the Bengloarafurd smugglers used? Or were there
two passes close together?
And just where _is_ Sandyhome and how was Fenarr able to give it away?
> This treaty coincided with Verra
> allying herself with a God (or Gods, or possibly Demon(s)) who looked
> out for humans' (Easterners) interests. One of these Gods incarnated
> in the form of a Horse, and this incarnation died during the exchange
> of hostilities prior to the treaty (but I feel sure that he did continue
> to exist).
It's fairly certain he was (and is) Bolk. Bolk's name means wisdom,
which is what Crionofenarr (sp?) named him in PG.
> As part of the treaty and alliance, the location where Fenarr
> lived was dedicated to Verra. Her statue was raised there, and every
> structure built there took part in that dedication. Dedication to the
> Goddess was not that difficult, and worshipping her was not an onerous
> task, at first (and it was probably only the royal family that
> worshipped her). She is not malign or cruel out of spite.
>
> And all was well for five hundred years, until the catastrophe.
>
> Adron's Disaster weakened Verra. Great effort had to be made to
> *contain* the Lesser Sea of Chaos and prevent it from destroying the
> Empire and the world. And what can she do if the Jenoine, perceiving
> her weakness (and the weakening of the other Gods as well) try to
> attack?
It's implied in _Issola_ that they did try.
Hmm... power from destroying the castle... but what if the royal
family was killed? I can't see that being good for Verra.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There's a word you don't see often; Google only found 14 sites (two
apparantly in French, most of the rest about black holes(!)).
> directed growth and transforming strength.
>
> These entities may have other forms and other names - I can't help
> but wonder if one of them is supposed to be Barlen, Verra's lover
> and foe.
I'd guess Bolk maybe. Hmmm... or maybe not...
> So this coalition of Powers - River, Horse, and Tree - decides to Do
> Something about the situation. I don't know if any single one of them
> would have been enough, yet working together (and including Miklós),
> they break Verra's power *and* repair/replace the palace. Note that
> even though this action ends Verra's ability to manifest in Fenario, it
> seems to be percieved as a Good Thing (or at least, as regrettable but
> Necessary) by Verra's own grand-daughter, and at the end, it seems
> that Fenario is cut off completely from Verra's influence and the Power
> of Faerie itself (although this last is extrapolating from Sándor being
> blocked, which may have been an individual or one-time thing - perhaps
> whatever was transforming the Palace at the time needed all available
> energy, and Sándor was like a userspace app trying to run while root is
> running a CPU hogging application).
Verra <==> Magic, and is specifically referred to as a personification
of the Power, and also the loss of magic is the reason Brigitta has to
leave (she seems to be addicted).
> Whoof. This took a long time to write, and I haven't even gotten
> into Brigitta's backstory, or the political allegory I realized
> was hidden in there, or the comparison I wanted to do with _The
> Gypsy_...
>
> Oh, well. Maybe another time, if anyone is interested.
I'm interested at least.
And besides, it's signal instead of noise, which is good enough for
this newsgroup.
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
>
> David Silberstein wrote:
> >
Spoilers for _Brokedown Palace_
[these couple of lines are from an old post by me (Konrad)]
Okay, found the lines I mentioned above (page 203):
"What has been done before?" [to replace the palace]
"The King has ordered materials taken from the Riverbed, and sent in
from east and west. And salvaged material from the building he was
replacing."
Okay, so I was wrong, and some material was saved, possibly even dating
back to the hut. But it still doesn't explain why Verra didn't try
talking Laszlo into replacing the palace. I can't help thinking that
Verra might be only able to see through his eyes, and so doesn't
really know how bad it is now. Of course, she should know that part
of it fell already, crippling the previous king.
[snip]
> > I don't know what it is she takes from the Palace. Call it mana, call
> > it sorcerous energy derived from accelerated entropy. But take it
> > she does, and the Palace breaks down much faster than would have been
> > the case without her interference. (Note that sheer desperation may
> > have also been what drove her request/demand for human (or were those
> > Dragaeran?) sacrifices.)
>
> Hmm... power from destroying the castle... but what if the royal
> family was killed? I can't see that being good for Verra.
You know, very few people in Fenario believe in Verra these days. In
fact, I think Sandor and Laszlo are the only ones who _truly_ believe,
and Sandor doesn't really worship her.
I wonder if her inability to manifest there anymore is actually due to
the deaths of the last two people to really believe in her.
--KG
Damien Raphael Sullivan
>
>What follows is some extrapolation and interpolation of the
>history of _Brokedown Palace_, by Steven K. Z. Brust.
Cool thoughts!
>
>So. Spoiler Space for _Brokedown Palace_ begins here.
>
>Accented character word equvalencies:
>
>Miklós=Miklos
>
>László=Laszlo
>
>Sándor=Sandor
>
>Bölk=Bolk
>
>táltos=taltos
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>to me that something very unusual is going on in the Palace. 400
>years is an awfully short time for a well-constructed building to
"Silly Easterners, can't even build a castle."
But yeah.
>About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
>local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
>and by extension, with the Empire. This treaty coincided with Verra
>allying herself with a God (or Gods, or possibly Demon(s)) who looked
>to exist). As part of the treaty and alliance, the location where Fenarr
>lived was dedicated to Verra. Her statue was raised there, and every
Also note that Verra was allied rather intimately with Adron, providing him
with a daughter at about this time. And Adron's land is near all this.
Related? Dunno. But it might partly explain Verra getting involved with
Fenario.
>out for humans' (Easterners) interests. One of these Gods incarnated
>in the form of a Horse, and this incarnation died during the exchange
>of hostilities prior to the treaty (but I feel sure that he did continue
I'd like Khaavren's version of what happened, not Khaavren-through-Paarfi.
>to *her*. A Palace is about to be built there... I am not sure if
>she interferes at this point, yet it seems likely - perhaps she sends
>dreams to the King, urging him to rush through the construction, even
Note that the timeline places the palace at about 75 years into the
Interregnum, which I think is about correct. Vlad is Adron+500, and BP+25,
and BP is Palace Construction+400.
On the flip side, the timeline also mentions Bolk mentioning having been
allied with Verra at one point.
>that the táltos' role is to bring back the Sun, the Moon and the
>Stars - in BP, the táltos prevents them from being taken away in the
>first place.
I do kind of like this.
> - Verra is a God of the long-lived Dragaerans, and of their stable,
> long-lived Empire, and she seems to be a reactionary, highly
> static force in BP.
Not exactly politically progressive in _Phoenix_, either.
> - the River flows and changes every moment. It seems to have a
I'm still amused that it's called the River out of Faerie, when it seems to
have nothing to do with Faerie...
> *was* Death, which is interesting - and there's also the
> Apocalyptic symbolism in that he's a *pale* horse),
Hrm. Might be coincidence.
>seems to be percieved as a Good Thing (or at least, as regrettable but
>Necessary) by Verra's own grand-daughter, and at the end, it seems
Does Devera indicate that?
>that Fenario is cut off completely from Verra's influence and the Power
>of Faerie itself (although this last is extrapolating from Sándor being
>blocked, which may have been an individual or one-time thing - perhaps
And Brigitta feeling she had to leave.
I wonder if Sandor's dragon spell didn't work because it was near running
water or because it was near the River.
>into Brigitta's backstory, or the political allegory I realized
>was hidden in there, or the comparison I wanted to do with _The
>Gypsy_...
Is it significant that the daughter of Brigitta and Miklos is fighting against
the Empire?
BTW, Vlad Norathar would seem to be Taltos (assuming the patronymic means
something), of the royal blood of Fenario (and possibly the heir, depending on
whether the surviving princes managed to breed in the last 25 years. I could
see Vilmos and Andor not doing so, and VN would be firstborn of Miklos's
brood) and part demon. Of course being part demon hasn't obviously surfaced
in Cawti.
But things skip a generation. Aliera is Verra's daughter, and pretty and
short and doesn't age, but her daughter is the really weird one, bouncing
around spacetime and munching on a Jenoine for lunch. Noish-pa is a good
with, Vlad's just weird, but his dad sounds relatively dull. Mmm, but
Brigitta would be the skipped generation, from the demon.
-xx- Damien X-)
David Silberstein
Timothy A. McDaniel <tm...@jump.net> wrote:
Spoiler space for _Brokedown Palace_
>I recall reading once that _Brokedown Palace_ is an complete Marxist
>allegory: the downfall of increasingly tottering and violent
>capitalism and the revolution that establishes the communist state.
A quick Google shows that there was even a bit of a flamewar
about it a while back.
SKZB appears to be on record as saying: (The quote is from:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=falh.82...@maroon.tc.umn.edu )
"The first draft of BROKEDOWN PALACE was a Marxist allegory,
written to prove to myself that I ought not to write allegories.
In the re-write, I backed away from the allegory. Elements of
it are still there, but I had to let the story go it's own way."
Which I can quite understand, and accords with my perceptions.
What follows is an extended analysis of _Brokedown Palace_ by
Steven K. Z. Brust, as a political allegory. There will of
course be spoilers for the entire book, especially the ending.
Warning: I am not an expert in Marxism or Hegelian philosophy.
Note also that I am not a professional literary critic, and
I'm probably going to do something wrong. What the hell, anyway.
Viewing the story as an allegory, by necessity, means reducing
the characters to caricatures, simplified sketches of themselves.
Which is what I'm going to do here; this means ignoring the
larger complexity of the tale. This isn't the only way to view
the story, but I think it is worthwhile to examine those elements
which support the allegory.
So let's start with the Palace itself: it represents the old
regime, the tottering, decadent power structure. It cannot
sustain nor repair itself. Efforts by those within to repair
it are doomed to failure; the rot is too far advanced; they
can only stave off its inevitable collapse.
László represents the aristocratic class. He is the obvious
archetypical reactionary, who identifies with the Palace,
with the system itself. He refuses to see its decay, refuses
to admit it has failed. He holds the power of the State
(== Állam, in Hungarian), and is served by Sándor, who
represents the clergy, the religion which supports the current
state, and Viktor, who represents the entire military (but who
is also a rival aristocrat, seeking to place himself at the
head of the system without otherwise changing it).
Andor represents the bourgeois, the middle-class. Weak-willed,
flighty, incompetent and unhappy, but driven by good intentions,
he seeks desperately for something to put his faith in. His
attempt at flower-growing might be seen as a metaphor for
mercantile investment (Tulip Mania, anyone?), and when this
fails, he turns to the Goddess, which is of course that opium
of the masses, religion.
Vilmos represents the proletariat, largest and mightiest of the
classes, and the one that is most often called upon to defend
the realm against danger and to provides the labor which props
and supports the regime when parts of it fail.
Miklós represents the nascent revolutionary - at first, he is
merely a social critic, calling attention to the failure of the
system, and persecuted because of this.
The Tree represents the nascent new order, fed by the River
(which might represent Time itself), growing right inside
the old system, with the ultimate destiny of replacing it.
It will become the Revolution itself.
Brigitta represents the artist-visionary, who must serve the
aristocracy's pleasure ("the King's whore") in the old order,
but who sees the Tree, the new order, as a thing of beauty.
I think the norska represent the impoverished lumpenproletariat,
living at the bottom of the current social hierarchy, subsisting
on the leavings of the classes above them. Incidentally, I found,
somewhat amusingly, that their names are just Hungarian terms
for family members: Atya == "father", Anya == "mother", Bátya ==
(some form of "brother" (báty)), Húga == (some form of "sister"
(húg)), Csecsemő == baby.
Mariska represents the benevolent, philanthropic aristocracy -
she is sympathetic towards the proletariat (Vilmos) and the
lumpenproletariat (norska), and is also determined at first
to institute repairs (reforms) to the old system.
So. Let's now look at the events: Miklós, in the heat of anger at
having his small portion in the regime taken from him (his room),
states that the system (Palace) will collapse anyway. László sees
all criticism as treason, and lashes out at him with the full power
of the state (Állam), seeking to suppress his words. From Miklós'
blood, the new order begins to grow.
Miklós then must use Wisdom (== Bölcsesség, in Hungarian) to
determine his proper course of action, which is essentially to
grow and become a genuine revolutionary. Before he reaches this
stage, he goes into exile and returns, which I am not sure has
any allegorical meaning, but once he does return, he is betrayed
by the bourgeoisie (Andor), acting in the name of religion. The
proletariat (Vilmos) is indecisive, unsure at this point whether
to support the existing state or the critic.
Now the fact of the Revolution's existence comes to the attention
of the reactionary forces. The clergy (Sándor) and the military
(Viktor) cannot harm it. The proletariat (Vilmos) is unwilling
to use his strength to uproot it - while it may be in his power to
do so, he has too much sympathy for it. The aristocracy (László)
is unwilling to unleash the power of the State (Állam) against it,
fearing that he might destroy the current regime if he does.
And the visionary artist (Brigitta) sees its inherent beauty, and
goes to join the social critic (Miklós), to convince him of this
beauty as well.
Miklós finally decides that he must destroy the God who upholds
the current system (and as a digression, I note that it is an
interesting effect of political psychology that nearly every
state in existence claims that God supports them), using the
heart and blood of his horse. It occurs to me that the Heart
and Blood of Wisdom might be Reason, which is what is usually
used against the repressive excesses of religion.
Finally, he must convince the other classes (Andor, Vilmos) to
support him against the repressive reactionaries (László, Sándor,
and Viktor), allowing the completion of the revolutionary process.
Note that after it is all over, all of the reactionary forces are
dead, and power passes not to the bourgeoisie (Andor), but to the
proletariat (Vilmos). The benevolent aristocrat (Mariska) flees,
but it is suggested that she may return and join the proletariat
in the new order.
Some of the above analogies may be a little strained, but I think
I covered most of the important ones. Feel free to continue the
game...
Phil Fraering
> But things skip a generation. Aliera is Verra's daughter, and pretty and
> short and doesn't age, but her daughter is the really weird one, bouncing
> around spacetime and munching on a Jenoine for lunch. Noish-pa is a good
> with, Vlad's just weird, but his dad sounds relatively dull. Mmm, but
> Brigitta would be the skipped generation, from the demon.
My reading of the Vlad books has been rather scattered... but do
we know anything whatsoever about what Vlad's mother was like?
--
Phil Fraering "Do you like country music? So do I, and I
p...@globalreach.net sure do miss it..." -KBON radio announcer
Konrad Gaertner
>
> pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Raphael Sullivan) writes:
>
> > But things skip a generation. Aliera is Verra's daughter, and pretty and
> > short and doesn't age, but her daughter is the really weird one, bouncing
> > around spacetime and munching on a Jenoine for lunch. Noish-pa is a good
> > with, Vlad's just weird, but his dad sounds relatively dull. Mmm, but
> > Brigitta would be the skipped generation, from the demon.
>
> My reading of the Vlad books has been rather scattered... but do
> we know anything whatsoever about what Vlad's mother was like?
Not really. Vlad has a few really vague memories that might be of her,
mentioned in the early flashbacks in _Taltos_.
Notice that Vlad is starting to wish he knew his father better.
--KG
Phil Fraering
Did anything ever come of the theory that Verra is his mother?
David Silberstein
Phil Fraering <p...@globalreach.net> wrote:
>Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>> Phil Fraering wrote:
>> >
>> > My reading of the Vlad books has been rather scattered... but do
>> > we know anything whatsoever about what Vlad's mother was like?
>>
>> Not really. Vlad has a few really vague memories that might be of her,
>> mentioned in the early flashbacks in _Taltos_.
>>
>> Notice that Vlad is starting to wish he knew his father better.
>
>Did anything ever come of the theory that Verra is his mother?
>
I think that's very unlikely. I can understand why she might want to
get involved with a hotshot Dragonlord, but why would she feel
compelled to shack up with an Easterner restauranteur? Unless maybe
she lost a God-level bet... ;-)
Vald received conflicting information from his father about his
mother, and doesn't even know whether she's dead, or left his
father, or he left her, or what.
One of the epithets his father used about her was "witch". This
might have been just a generic insult, but ever since we've learned
in _Issola_ that Morrolan has a coven of witches on his staff that
Vlad has never met, I found myself wondering if perhaps it will
turn out she is among them.
David Silberstein
Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>>
>>What follows is some extrapolation and interpolation of the
>>history of _Brokedown Palace_, by Steven K. Z. Brust.
>
>Cool thoughts!
>
>>
>>So. Spoiler Space for _Brokedown Palace_ begins here.
>>
>>Accented character word equvalencies:
>>
>>Miklós=Miklos
>>
>>László=Laszlo
>>
>>Sándor=Sandor
>>
>>Bölk=Bolk
>>
>>táltos=taltos
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
>>and by extension, with the Empire. This treaty coincided with Verra
>>allying herself with a God (or Gods, or possibly Demon(s)) who looked
>
>>to exist). As part of the treaty and alliance, the location where Fenarr
>>lived was dedicated to Verra. Her statue was raised there, and every
>
>Also note that Verra was allied rather intimately with Adron, providing him
>with a daughter at about this time. And Adron's land is near all this.
>Related? Dunno. But it might partly explain Verra getting involved with
>Fenario.
>
Interesting thought. Maybe something along the lines of "As a present
for my lover and my daughter, I'll make sure that the Easterners keep
to the treaty they signed by establishing my presence in their royal
family"?
>
>On the flip side, the timeline also mentions Bolk mentioning
>having been allied with Verra at one point.
>
I'm not sure if the Fenario-Empire treaty was a direct outcome of
their alliance or the cause of it, but I feel very sure that is what
Verra is referring to (in BP, pg 212).
>> - the River flows and changes every moment. It seems to have a
>
>I'm still amused that it's called the River out of Faerie,
>when it seems to have nothing to do with Faerie...
I noticed, when re-reading _Taltos_, that one of Verra's
maybe-sisters has "hair and skin that flowed like water"
(Taltos, pg 138). Not sure if that's significant or not...
>
>>seems to be percieved as a Good Thing (or at least, as regrettable but
>>Necessary) by Verra's own grand-daughter, and at the end, it seems
>
>Does Devera indicate that?
>
Well, I was going on the assumption that she knows exactly what has
happened, and yet still speaks politely and kindly to Miklós, both
before he leaves for Faerie, and after everything has taken place.
If she thought it had been wrong, I'd think she'd either have tried
to prevent it, or would have at least sounded angry when speaking
to him.
("My name is Devera e'Kieron. You removed an aspect of my
Grandmother's divinity, prepare to die!")
>
>>into Brigitta's backstory, or the political allegory I realized
>>was hidden in there, or the comparison I wanted to do with _The
>>Gypsy_...
>
>Is it significant that the daughter of Brigitta and Miklos is
>fighting against the Empire?
It may be sadly ironic. See below...
>BTW, Vlad Norathar would seem to be Taltos (assuming the
>patronymic means something), of the royal blood of Fenario
>(and possibly the heir, depending on whether the surviving
>princes managed to breed in the last 25 years. I could
>see Vilmos and Andor not doing so, and VN would be
>firstborn of Miklos's brood)
>
But Miklós' union with Brigitta wasn't formalized. Bastards
don't usually inherit - the line of succession would probably
swing over to Viktor's family, or some other branch.
> [Vlad Norathar is] part demon. Of course
>being part demon hasn't obviously surfaced in Cawti.
[snip]
>Brigitta would be the skipped generation, from the demon.
>
Well, this is as good a place as any to expand on what I noticed
about Brigitta.
One of the things that was puzzling me was "What do they mean by
'demon'"? It's pretty obvious that "demon" can mean different
things, due to linguistic overloading.
But I was just re-reading _Jhereg_, and the following bit
leapt out at me (they're talking about a renegade Jhereg,
who the Demon (interesting nickname) thinks has gone out
East. Vlad responds: "That doesn't make sense. Dragaerans
out East are treated about the same as Easterners are
treated here -- worse, if anything. He'd be considered,
if you'll pardon the expression, a demon." (Jhereg, pg 35).
Ah-ha.
What if a demon, in this case at least, is simply a Dragaeran
who has chosen to live in the East, perhaps having shapeshifting
abilities, perhaps using his skill at sorcery to harrass and
terrify the poor Easterners? Of course, this contradicts
Aliera's assertion that Easterners and Dragaerans can't
interbreed, but she says other stuff in _Jhereg_ that is later
shown to be wrong or incomplete.
The time line at http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt
seems to use Brigetta's alleged age of 17 to date Margit
shacking up with a demon, but this completely ignores the
fact that the story where she married the demon is definitely
set during a 5 year period *300* years prior to _BP_, when
the Northmen besieged Fenario.
Brigitta also cries out that she is not human and not elf.
Again, the implication is that she's half of both. She
also says that her mother died "last winter", which may
seem odd if her mother was human, but perhaps her mother
also had a link to the Orb, and drew on it for its life-
extending powers[1]. Of course, Brigitta can do the same.
When I first read the interlude story on pg 135, I thought
that the man who was "bigger than a house and fiercer than
a dzur, [...] carrying a great sword" was a relative of
Prince Jani - perhaps even the giant from the coachman's
tale to Viktor. Yet now I wonder if perhaps it was
Margit's demon lover...
This makes it a lot clearer why Brigitta had to leave - not
only does she depend on her link to the Orb for power (and
youth), her physiology will keep her young and healthy for
a long, long time (barring misadventure, which Devera
suggests does occur), while her lover/husband Miklós grows
old and dies.
So that would be ironic - Cawti is a quarter Dragearan, and
may have an expected lifetime of much longer than most
Easterners, and that's not even considering her link to
the Orb (and there's also the fact that she's tough enough
to resist one of Aliera's sorcerous attacks in _Yendi_, which
ruptures her insides). Vlad N. is an eighth Dragearan.
Not that it would matter to the Empire - but it might to Vlad.
[1] Given that humans can extend their lifespans 2 or 3 times
the normal length using the orb (Sándor/Alfredo), I wonder if
perhaps Dragaerans would only live around 1000-1500 years if
they did not have access to the Orb? The Interregnum didn't
last long enough to prove or disprove this thesis, but then
again, there's the Dragaerans living outside of the Empire
(Elde Island, Greenaere) - how old do they live?
Once again, I've been working on this for too long. Must sleep
now.
Phil Fraering
> >Did anything ever come of the theory that Verra is his mother?
> I think that's very unlikely. I can understand why she might want to
> get involved with a hotshot Dragonlord, but why would she feel
> compelled to shack up with an Easterner restauranteur? Unless maybe
> she lost a God-level bet... ;-)
You seem to be assuming that Verra shares the same sorts of
prejudices concerning Easterners as the average Dragaerean.
I suspect this not to be the case.
And part of the theory was that Vlad's dad became a restauranteur
to corrupt Vlad and steer him away from the life Verra wanted for
him, because if he ever stops eating or sleeping for long enough,
he'll become a demon.
David Silberstein
In article <3B748D75...@worldnet.att.net>,
Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>David Silberstein wrote:
[snippage]
>
>> So. Spoiler Space for _Brokedown Palace_ begins here.
>>
>> Accented character word equvalencies:
>>
>> Miklós=Miklos
>>
>> László=Laszlo
>>
>> Sándor=Sandor
>>
>> Bölk=Bolk
>>
>> táltos=taltos
>
>My newsreader shows the accents correctly, but I haven't taken the
>time to figure out how to insert them in my own text, so I'll just
>use the unaccented versions. (Sorry, pedantic linguists)
>
Cut 'n' paste is your friend. ;-)
>> The real stuff begins here.
[more snippage]
>> But even if it was torn down completely, I note that the current
>> Palace - the newest part, which is definitely decaying in the "now"
>> of the story - is 400 years old. I think that number may be very
>> significant. What *else* happened 400 years previously? Well, if
>> my guesstimates are correct (and they seem to be corroborated in
>> this timeline: http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt ), Adron's
>> Disaster occurred, and the Interregnum began.
>
>Alternative (in case the above rumor is true): there is mention in
>I think _Teckla_ of a park memorial to some Fenarian event known as
>the Exodus which I believe happened during the Interregnum.
>
It might have been Adron's Disaster, but I wonder if it might instead
have been because of the marauding Northmen? (300 yrs before _BP_)
>> And speaking of mana, the more I think about it, the more it seems
>> to me that something very unusual is going on in the Palace. 400
>> years is an awfully short time for a well-constructed building to
>> exist. There are many real-world castles and buildings that have
>> stood for as long or longer. Even the decrepit or destroyed
>> structures fell more to war or natural disasters, or were taken
>> apart by locals for building materials, rather than just falling
>> apart from the passing of time. Yet the Fenarian Castle's
>> foundations are crumbling - and why were they made of sandstone
>> in the first place?
>
>There are also many modern homes with significant structural damage
>after only a decade.
Yes, they're usually called "low income housing".
If you're going to be piling tonnes and tonnes of stone on
top of each other, what even vaguely competent architect is
going to suggest *sandstone* in the foundations?
I guess I'm harping on this because I've seen sandstone cliffs.
As the name suggests, sandstone is a sedimentary rock, formed of
compacted layers of sand. The cliffs were pretty damn crumbly,
and I can't imagine anyone sane thinking, "Hmm. Crumbly, weak,
compacted sand. Hey, let's use *that* as the foundation for our
castle." Especially since there are whole mountains of granite
just a few days journey west.
Unless the sandstone was of a particularly strong and solid type,
which brings us back to the question of why it weakened so much,
and so quickly...
>> So here's an extended speculative backstory to Brokedown Palace,
>> and the history of Fenario:
>>
>> About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
>> local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
>> and by extension, with the Empire.
>
>This was supposedly a place where it was easy to cross the mountains,
>at least at that time. Something must have changed since then since
>the path Miklos used to leave couldn't have been used for raiding
>horses.
>
I had a thought that perhaps the Marquis of Pepperfields used sorcery
to slice through a portion of the mountain next to the pass, and
then used more sorcery to prevent it from actually falling. It
probably made sense at the time - if the Easterners ever got uppity,
all he'd need to do would be to release the spell holding it up, and
*BOOM*, no more pass. Of course, when Adron's Disaster hit...
But then how would the Easterners have had their Exodus? Well, perhaps
the same way trade between Fenario and Dragaera appears to be going
on: by ship, around the south.
>
>And is this the pass the Bengloarafurd smugglers used? Or were there
>two passes close together?
>
>And just where _is_ Sandyhome and how was Fenarr able to give it away?
>
I do vaguely remember reading something about the diamonds mined in the
(North-?)Western Mountains, which are of course in the East of Dragaera.
[snippage]
>> I don't know what it is she takes from the Palace. Call it mana, call
>> it sorcerous energy derived from accelerated entropy. But take it
>> she does, and the Palace breaks down much faster than would have been
>> the case without her interference. (Note that sheer desperation may
>> have also been what drove her request/demand for human (or were those
>> Dragaeran?) sacrifices.)
>
>Hmm... power from destroying the castle... but what if the royal
>family was killed? I can't see that being good for Verra.
She might have been planning to return the power "soon" - which could
mean another few hundred years down the line, after it's too late.
>> These entities may have other forms and other names - I can't help
>> but wonder if one of them is supposed to be Barlen, Verra's lover
>> and foe.
>
>I'd guess Bolk maybe. Hmmm... or maybe not...
>
Well, the Tree is large and green, and Barlan is large and green...
Hell, *I* don't know.
>
>Verra <==> Magic, and is specifically referred to as a personification
>of the Power, and also the loss of magic is the reason Brigitta has to
>leave (she seems to be addicted).
>
I'm not sure how that ties in with the more "scientific" notion that
sorcery is simply the use of the trellanstone Orb to draw power from
the Great Sea of Chaos.
Regarding Brigitta, see my suggestion elsewhere about how she may
be a Dragaeran half-breed who is using sorcery to keep herself
young and healthy...
David Silberstein
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <9l22a8$5ps$1...@news.jump.net>,
>Timothy A. McDaniel <tm...@jump.net> wrote:
>
>Spoiler space for _Brokedown Palace_
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>I recall reading once that _Brokedown Palace_ is an complete Marxist
>>allegory: the downfall of increasingly tottering and violent
>>capitalism and the revolution that establishes the communist state.
>
>A quick Google shows that there was even a bit of a flamewar
>about it a while back.
>
>SKZB appears to be on record as saying: (The quote is from:
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=falh.82...@maroon.tc.umn.edu )
>
>"The first draft of BROKEDOWN PALACE was a Marxist allegory,
>written to prove to myself that I ought not to write allegories.
>In the re-write, I backed away from the allegory. Elements of
>it are still there, but I had to let the story go it's own way."
>
>Which I can quite understand, and accords with my perceptions.
>
[snippage]
>
>László represents the aristocratic class. He is the obvious
>archetypical reactionary, who identifies with the Palace,
>with the system itself. He refuses to see its decay, refuses
>to admit it has failed. He holds the power of the State
>(== Állam, in Hungarian), and is served by Sándor, who
>represents the clergy, the religion which supports the current
>state, and Viktor, who represents the entire military (but who
>is also a rival aristocrat, seeking to place himself at the
>head of the system without otherwise changing it).
>
I forgot to mention Rezső, who pretty obviously represents the
civil service, the entire bureaucracy supporting the aristocrats'
rule.
I couldn't figure out the role of the former king and his queen -
János VI and Teréz, injured by the collapse of a wing of the
palace, quietly living out their years in one of the towers.
Yet they seem to represent *something*. Any guesses as to what?
David Silberstein
I had a couple more ideas about this....
Maybe Adron's Disaster affected Fenario as well, in that trade
with the Dragaeran Empire ended (causing financial collapse?).
Lets also assume that the Exodus was the result of humans wanting
to grab suddenly depopulated or poorly defended Dragaeran lands.
Perhaps building the castle was part of the King's program to build
up confidence in Fenario, trying to convince people that staying
was a good idea. Unfortunately, when he started building, he
didn't have the resources - either finances or population - to
build it properly, and that's how we got the Brokedown Palace a
mere 400 years later. And of course, he may have been desperate
to build *some* defensible structure given the military threats
he faced from the Northmen and the southern marauders.
>
>Okay, so I was wrong, and some material was saved, possibly even dating
>back to the hut. But it still doesn't explain why Verra didn't try
>talking Laszlo into replacing the palace. I can't help thinking that
>Verra might be only able to see through his eyes, and so doesn't
>really know how bad it is now. Of course, she should know that part
>of it fell already, crippling the previous king.
>
I was thinking about this idea of Verra seeing the palace through
the King's eyes, and I had a creepy notion that perhaps she is in a
sense driving him insane because *she* is in denial about the
palace's decrepitude, which he then echos. And of course, her denial
makes sense to *her*, since it's along the lines of "The palace
cannot *possibly* be collapsing, it's only 400 years young!"
What mortal man could withstand the denial of a God?
David Eppstein
dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
> >> These entities may have other forms and other names - I can't help
> >> but wonder if one of them is supposed to be Barlen, Verra's lover
> >> and foe.
> >
> >I'd guess Bolk maybe. Hmmm... or maybe not...
> >
>
> Well, the Tree is large and green, and Barlan is large and green...
So was Deverra last time we saw her...
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <GI0z8...@kithrup.com>,
> dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>
> > >> These entities may have other forms and other names - I can't help
> > >> but wonder if one of them is supposed to be Barlen, Verra's lover
> > >> and foe.
> > >
> > >I'd guess Bolk maybe. Hmmm... or maybe not...
> > >
> >
> > Well, the Tree is large and green, and Barlan is large and green...
>
> So was Deverra last time we saw her...
Was her color specified?
Anyway, Barlan doesn't have enough personality to be the Tree...
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
>
[Vlad as Verra's son]
> And part of the theory was that Vlad's dad became a restauranteur
> to corrupt Vlad and steer him away from the life Verra wanted for
> him, because if he ever stops eating or sleeping for long enough,
> he'll become a demon.
Actually, a taltos, which may be something completely different...
(If your reading this, Mr. Brust, could you recommend some good books
on Hungarian folklore? Specifically about taltoses(?))
I always thought it was just Brust's normal irony in having a Taltos
master chef.
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <9l4q2c$r...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
> Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
> >>
> >>So. Spoiler Space for _Brokedown Palace_ begins here.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'm still amused that it's called the River out of Faerie,
> >when it seems to have nothing to do with Faerie...
It's source is Lake Fenarr, which is also the source of the Eastern
River in Faerie. Great Divide and all that...
> I noticed, when re-reading _Taltos_, that one of Verra's
> maybe-sisters has "hair and skin that flowed like water"
> (Taltos, pg 138). Not sure if that's significant or not...
So the River is Night or Pain? (Is, 117)
> >
> >>seems to be percieved as a Good Thing (or at least, as regrettable but
> >>Necessary) by Verra's own grand-daughter, and at the end, it seems
> >
> >Does Devera indicate that?
> >
>
> Well, I was going on the assumption that she knows exactly what has
> happened, and yet still speaks politely and kindly to Miklós, both
> before he leaves for Faerie, and after everything has taken place.
> If she thought it had been wrong, I'd think she'd either have tried
> to prevent it, or would have at least sounded angry when speaking
> to him.
She even thanks him.
> ("My name is Devera e'Kieron. You removed an aspect of my
> Grandmother's divinity, prepare to die!")
>
hehehe
--KG
David Silberstein
Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>David Silberstein wrote:
>>
>> In article <9l4q2c$r...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>> Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>> >dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>So. Spoiler Space for _Brokedown Palace_ begins here.
>And maybe _Issola_ and _Taltos_ too.
>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>
>> >I'm still amused that it's called the River out of Faerie,
>> >when it seems to have nothing to do with Faerie...
>
>It's source is Lake Fenarr, which is also the source of the Eastern
>River in Faerie. Great Divide and all that...
>
>> I noticed, when re-reading _Taltos_, that one of Verra's
>> maybe-sisters has "hair and skin that flowed like water"
>> (Taltos, pg 138). Not sure if that's significant or not...
>
>So the River is Night or Pain? (Is, 117)
Well, the other sister is "small, and always in shadow", which
sounds more like Night to me. I don't know how the liquid
features might indicate Pain (and does she cause it or feel it?),
nor am I at all certain her liquidity means she is the River.
But I take that little fable with a whole minefull of salt.
Both the labels and the events described seem ridiculously
simplified, and quite possibly flat-out wrong. (Chaos?
Evil? Magic? It's all just too vague.)
Damien Raphael Sullivan
>Did anything ever come of the theory that Verra is his mother?
In my mailbox:
Message-ID: <72du5o$dnq$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>
Subject: Re: Question about Brust's _Dragon_ (spoilers!)
Date: 12 Nov 1998 01:11:04 -0500
From: gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon)
>Which begs the question, was Vlad's mother anyone unusual? You
>remember he couldn't get a straight answer from his father, or
>Noiosh-pa, as to what his mother was like...
She was a witch, and it's really unclear whether or not she died.
>I am forced to jump to the unfounded and irrational conclusion that
>Vlad's mother is Verra.
Brust says not.
===
I also found this, from Our Author:
Message-ID: <fRNj3.3854$U5.7...@ptah.visi.com>
c...@lightlink.com (Courtenay Footman) wrote:
>In _Jherig_, Aliera tells Vlad that a Pheonix attempted to take the Orb from
>Tortaalik, and this was the final trigger of Adron's actions.
Aliera got her stories tangled, is all. She's referring to the
incident of the Goblets, which happened well before Adron's move, and
only indirectly had anything to do with it. Aliera doesn't know as
much history as she thinks she does, and tends toward tunnelvision.
And, besides, Daddy couldn't have done anything really wrong.
===
I really need to smush all these old posts onto my web page somehow. There's
lots of neat stuff.
-xx- Damien X-)
David Silberstein
Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>Phil Fraering wrote:
>>
>[Vlad as Verra's son]
>> And part of the theory was that Vlad's dad became a restauranteur
>> to corrupt Vlad and steer him away from the life Verra wanted for
>> him, because if he ever stops eating or sleeping for long enough,
>> he'll become a demon.
>
>Actually, a taltos, which may be something completely different...
>
>(If your reading this, Mr. Brust, could you recommend some good books
>on Hungarian folklore? Specifically about taltoses(?))
IANSKZB,PJF, but I notice there is an afterword by W. Z. Brust in
"The Sun, the Moon and the Stars" which references "Foktales of
Hungary" edited by Linda Dégh, and "Folktales of the World" ed.
by Richard M. Dorson. He also mentions an ethnologist, Tekla [1]
Domotor. The afterword itself is quite scholarly, and of course,
there is a long folktale which is interwoven through "The Sun, the
Moon and the Stars" itself.
[1] Yes, spelled like that.
cave deum
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>I couldn't figure out the role of the former king and his queen -
>palace, quietly living out their years in one of the towers.
>Yet they seem to represent *something*. Any guesses as to what?
Ancient tradition, perhaps, which is followed by rote, having
forgotten what it once stood for.
rone
--
Looking for God's underpants since 1985. <ro...@ennui.org>
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <3B786491...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Phil Fraering wrote:
> >>
> >[Vlad as Verra's son]
> >> And part of the theory was that Vlad's dad became a restauranteur
> >> to corrupt Vlad and steer him away from the life Verra wanted for
> >> him, because if he ever stops eating or sleeping for long enough,
> >> he'll become a demon.
> >
> >Actually, a taltos, which may be something completely different...
> >
> >(If your reading this, Mr. Brust, could you recommend some good books
> >on Hungarian folklore? Specifically about taltoses(?))
>
> IANSKZB,PJF,
You know, I'm not sure the 'PJF' is appropiate in this context, though
it helped me figure out what you meant. I can't help wondering if the
general IANTA might be more useful, though. It can even be used for a
few other media.
> but I notice there is an afterword by W. Z. Brust in
> "The Sun, the Moon and the Stars" which references "Foktales of
> Hungary" edited by Linda Dégh, and "Folktales of the World" ed.
> by Richard M. Dorson. He also mentions an ethnologist, Tekla [1]
> Domotor. The afterword itself is quite scholarly, and of course,
> there is a long folktale which is interwoven through "The Sun, the
> Moon and the Stars" itself.
>
> [1] Yes, spelled like that.
Hmm... I really should read that afterword one of these days. Since
I own the book, I may as well do so tonight (I kept skipping it when
reading the story).
Thanks for pointing it out.
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
According to Damien, Brust said:
> c...@lightlink.com (Courtenay Footman) wrote:
>
> >In _Jherig_, Aliera tells Vlad that a Pheonix attempted to take the Orb from
> >Tortaalik, and this was the final trigger of Adron's actions.
>
> Aliera got her stories tangled, is all. She's referring to the
> incident of the Goblets, which happened well before Adron's move, and
> only indirectly had anything to do with it. Aliera doesn't know as
> much history as she thinks she does, and tends toward tunnelvision.
> And, besides, Daddy couldn't have done anything really wrong.
Aliera got something wrong that Paarfi got right? That is very, very
frightening...
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
Watch for my upcoming thread: Deities vs. Personifications in SF.
--KG
Damien Raphael Sullivan
>In article <3B786491...@worldnet.att.net>,
>Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Phil Fraering wrote:
>>>
>>[Vlad as Verra's son]
>>> And part of the theory was that Vlad's dad became a restauranteur
>>> to corrupt Vlad and steer him away from the life Verra wanted for
>>> him, because if he ever stops eating or sleeping for long enough,
>>> he'll become a demon.
>>
>>Actually, a taltos, which may be something completely different...
I don't remember the theory being that well developed... buy Graydon
speculated that Vlad is a Taltos, and Interesting Things will happen if anyone
tries to starve him. Plus he fell asleep in the Paths. (I just blame that on
Devera weirdness.) Someone said Vlad valued food too much to give it up just
for vast mystical power, and the counter was "Why do you think his family
taught him how to cook?"
-xx- Damien X-)
Thomas Yan
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
> What follows is some extrapolation and interpolation of the
> history of _Brokedown Palace_, by Steven K. Z. Brust.
Why isn't BP listed as one of the "The Dragaeran Novels", e.g. in the
front cover of _The Phoenix Guards_?
[Spoilers for all books up through (publication order)
Issola, Brokedown Palace, and 500 Years After]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This deep rumination began with the Usenet discussion at this location:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=3B5E0672...@worldnet.att.net
>
> In summary, Konrad originally wondered what Verra was _really_ doing
> in Brokedown Palace. [...]
Before the big confrontation at the end, I wondered if Verra and Bolk
were really allied, but pretending to be in opposition to further a
shared goal.
> [tky paraphrase: maybe Verra's power (in Fenario) is closely tied to
> the old palace and maybe Verra and Laszlo are mutually blinding each
> other's perception of events and circumstances.]
I like those suggestions! They explain why Verra seemed unconcerned
with the palace falling apart and killing everyone. I also appreciate
your speculative timeline.
(Before I read BP, I thought it referred to the old Dragaeran palace,
*despite* my having already read FHYA, where the palace and the rest
of the Dragaeran capital was disintegrated. Oops.)
> So here's an extended speculative backstory to Brokedown Palace,
> and the history of Fenario:
>
> About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
> local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
> [...]
The character I remember in TPG was called Crionofenarr. Was that, in
fact, Fennar? If so, is "Criono" his first name or a title?
(I avoided looking at the casts of characters for TPG, FHYA, and BP
before finishing each book because I thought they might contain
spoilers. Come to think of it, I still haven't really looked at
them....)
> [...]
> now that the Interregnum is over, Verra is trying to incorporate [Fenario]
> into the Empire, leeching the power to do so from the Castle, using
> the above method. I got this notion from BP pg 8, which mentions the
> Hand of Faerie (the Overcast), extending to cover all of Fenario
> sometimes. [...]
Hm. I wonder if the Overcast is related to the mist that Mario uses
in FHYA: Air by itself is too insubstantial to carry the energies
required to provide sorcerous power to all those with Orb-links. The
lack of the Overcast in other parts does not mean the Orb does not
work elsewhere, just that without the population density of those with
links is too low to require a medium elsewhere.
Hm. Did the Overcast go (partly) away during the Interregnum?
> [...] (Note that sheer desperation may
> have also been what drove her request/demand for human (or were those
> Dragaeran?) sacrifices.)
Tangent 1: How did Bolk and Miklos prevail at the end? Was Bolk's ichor
sufficient, perhaps in part because Verra could not help reacting to
it as if it were a sacrifice to her? Or did Bolk invoke some
additional magic, using himself as part of the spell?
Tangent 2: In _Issola_, Verra says she cannot manifest among the
Jenoine and that it is the fault of some Easterners, but not any of
Vlad's ancestors, as it was a blood prince and he is of peasant stock.
Huh? Verra *does* show up in Jenoinesburg in _Issola_, and Miklos
seems to be an Easterner blood prince who barred her from *Fenario*.
So, is Verra referring to stuff we don't know much/anything about, or
what?
-snip-
> In complete contrast, the Gods (or whatever they are) of the
> short-lived humans are very changable:
>
> - the River flows and changes every moment. It seems to have a
> personality and powers all its own, befriending those who
> live along its shores, and healing Miklós (and maybe others?)
Yeah, what is the River? Is it in some sense sentient, perhaps even a
god or demon, or merely the "tentacles" of something sentient?
-snip-
> Also, I note that the Horse calls himself "Death" when speaking
> to László and Sándor (BP pg 162), which reminded me of the Tarot
-snip-
(Non sequitor: The fable in McKillip's Riddlemaster trilogy/novel where
some mistakes "Deth" for "Death".)
> - the Tree is obviously the personification (arborification?) of
> directed growth and transforming strength.
-snip-
I think Bolk or Verra says something like -"the Tree is not a tree"-
rather than -"... is not *just* a tree"-, so as you ask, what is it?
> These entities may have other forms and other names - I can't help
> but wonder if one of them is supposed to be Barlen, Verra's lover
> and foe.
I wondered, too, but in the end somehow thought that probably none
were aspects/manifestations of Barlen. However, I couldn't really
defend it one way or the other (unless I missed something we could
associate with "featherbreath").
-snip-
> Whoof. This took a long time to write,
(
Heh. Here and on other venues, sometimes there has been stuff I
wanted to write about, and pondered whether I should post a unified
but humongous article or a bunch of shorter articles. The advantage
of a unified article is that more relationships would probably become
apparent to me as I tried to tie it all together, but a disadvantage
is that a huge article can be hard both to write and to respond to.
The advantage of writing a bunch of articles is that each might be
easier both to write and to respond to, but the disadvantage is that
there might be a fair amount of overlap and perhaps some would want to
post a unified reply to a number of them.
)
> and I haven't even gotten
> into Brigitta's backstory, or the political allegory I realized
> was hidden in there, or the comparison I wanted to do with _The
> Gypsy_...
Is _The Gypsy_ in the same universe, or just an interesting point of
comparison? (What I'm really asking is, am I still one book short of
having read all the books in that universe?)
> Oh, well. Maybe another time, if anyone is interested.
Yes!
--
Thomas Yan (ty...@cs.cornell.edu) I don't speak for Cornell University
Be pro-active. Fight sucky software and learned helplessness.
Apologies for any lack of capitalization; typing hurts my hands.
Thomas Yan
Damien Raphael Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>dav...@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) wrote:
>>
>>So. Spoiler Space for _Brokedown Palace_ begins here.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
-snip-
> Also note that Verra was allied rather intimately with Adron, providing him
> with a daughter at about this time. [...]
Recall that Adron is -"astonished and awed"- to learn of his daughter.
Clearly, Verra providing him with a daughter is, on top of their
having been intimate, strongly suggests she holds him highly in her
regard. That she would be *capable* of producing a daughter with him
I believe accounts for some of his awe.
-snip-
> On the flip side, the timeline also mentions Bolk mentioning having been
> allied with Verra at one point.
Verra explicitly says in BP that they were allies once, and is
reluctant to further damage his body as she prepares to kill Miklos.
-snip-
> I'm still amused that it's called the River out of Faerie, when it seems to
> have nothing to do with Faerie...
Hm, maybe "out" as in "escape route out"?
>> [Verra's defeat, etc.]
>> seems to be percieved as a Good Thing (or at least, as regrettable but
>> Necessary) by Verra's own grand-daughter, and at the end, it seems
>
> Does Devera indicate that?
As already has been said, Devera seems rather friendly and sympathetic
towards Miklos, even offering happy tidings (term?) regarding his
daughter and regretfully declining to watch over Brigita.
Tangent: Both Sandor and Andor were kind of stupid, but Andor finally
acquired some measure of wisdom, or at least purpose. Is any of that
somehow reflected in their names, which are rather similar? (Or am I
getting distracted by shadows? :)
-snip-
> I wonder if Sandor's dragon spell didn't work because it was near running
> water or because it was near the River.
Nice; I like the idea of -"near water"- being shorthand for -"near the
River, which is the only known body of water large enough to make a
difference"-.
-snip-
Ross Presser
> Why isn't BP listed as one of the "The Dragaeran Novels", e.g. in the
> front cover of _The Phoenix Guards_?
>
Because it doesn't take place in Dragaera, or feature any Dragaerans as
characters?
--
Ross Presser * ross_p...@imtek.com
"Back stabbing is a sport best played by those that can't stand face
to face with their opponent." - Danny Taddei
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <GHvns...@kithrup.com>,
> David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Why isn't BP listed as one of the "The Dragaeran Novels", e.g. in the
> front cover of _The Phoenix Guards_?
BP tends to get forgotten a lot, since it's not part of either series.
I'm not sure if any of the blurbs even connect Khaavren and Vlad.
> [Spoilers for all books up through (publication order)
> Issola, Brokedown Palace, and 500 Years After]
Does this mean you're not going to spoil the unwritten books? :)
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
> > local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
> > [...]
>
> The character I remember in TPG was called Crionofenarr. Was that, in
> fact, Fennar? If so, is "Criono" his first name or a title?
Crionofenarr specifically says he's using a name altered to Dragaeran
standards. The Legend of Fenarr makes it pretty clear they're the same
person.
> > [...]
> > now that the Interregnum is over, Verra is trying to incorporate [Fenario]
> > into the Empire, leeching the power to do so from the Castle, using
> > the above method. I got this notion from BP pg 8, which mentions the
> > Hand of Faerie (the Overcast), extending to cover all of Fenario
> > sometimes. [...]
>
> Hm. I wonder if the Overcast is related to the mist that Mario uses
> in FHYA: Air by itself is too insubstantial to carry the energies
> required to provide sorcerous power to all those with Orb-links. The
> lack of the Overcast in other parts does not mean the Orb does not
> work elsewhere, just that without the population density of those with
> links is too low to require a medium elsewhere.
>
> Hm. Did the Overcast go (partly) away during the Interregnum?
Good question; no idea idea when (or even if) we'll get an answer.
> Tangent 2: In _Issola_, Verra says she cannot manifest among the
> Jenoine and that it is the fault of some Easterners, but not any of
> Vlad's ancestors, as it was a blood prince and he is of peasant stock.
> Huh? Verra *does* show up in Jenoinesburg in _Issola_, and Miklos
> seems to be an Easterner blood prince who barred her from *Fenario*.
> So, is Verra referring to stuff we don't know much/anything about, or
> what?
No, you misremember it; she was referring to Fenario.
> > These entities may have other forms and other names - I can't help
> > but wonder if one of them is supposed to be Barlen, Verra's lover
> > and foe.
>
> I wondered, too, but in the end somehow thought that probably none
> were aspects/manifestations of Barlen. However, I couldn't really
> defend it one way or the other (unless I missed something we could
> associate with "featherbreath").
Heh. I don't know what that would look like.
> Is _The Gypsy_ in the same universe, or just an interesting point of
> comparison? (What I'm really asking is, am I still one book short of
> having read all the books in that universe?)
_Gypsy_ isn't in the same universe (as far as we can tell at least).
It's an urban police novel crossed with Hungarian folklore.
Have you read "A Dream of Passion" yet? You can find it at:
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/dream.html
Note that it's canonicity (that probably isn't a real word) is still
being debated.
--KG
Justin Fang
Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
Spoilers for Issola, Brokedown Palace
>Tangent 2: In _Issola_, Verra says she cannot manifest among the
>Jenoine and that it is the fault of some Easterners, but not any of
>Vlad's ancestors, as it was a blood prince and he is of peasant stock.
>Huh? Verra *does* show up in Jenoinesburg in _Issola_, and Miklos
>seems to be an Easterner blood prince who barred her from *Fenario*.
>So, is Verra referring to stuff we don't know much/anything about, or
>what?
Er, actually she says, "But there is one place I cannot be, and your
countrymen are responsible for that." Then the bit about it not being
one of Vlad's ancestors, then, "I cannot appear among the Jenonine".
[_Issola, p. 78]
Note the distinction between "cannot be" and "cannot appear". She can't
travel to Jenoinesburg on her own, but can be summoned there.
Damien Raphael Sullivan
>In article <GHvns...@kithrup.com>,
>David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>
>> What follows is some extrapolation and interpolation of the
>> history of _Brokedown Palace_, by Steven K. Z. Brust.
>
>Why isn't BP listed as one of the "The Dragaeran Novels", e.g. in the
>front cover of _The Phoenix Guards_?
*shrug* It doesn't have the word "Dragaeran" in the text? Blame the editors.
Some questions aren't important.
But at least you've finally read it.
>[Spoilers for all books up through (publication order)
>Issola, Brokedown Palace, and 500 Years After]
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
>> local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
>> [...]
>
>The character I remember in TPG was called Crionofenarr. Was that, in
>fact, Fennar? If so, is "Criono" his first name or a title?
Or his full name, as given, which has been shortend in the 1000 years since
then.
I hadn't thought of your possibilities, actually. Not that I'd never
thought about it at all.
>Tangent 2: In _Issola_, Verra says she cannot manifest among the
>Jenoine and that it is the fault of some Easterners, but not any of
She's talking about Fenario, not the Jenoine.
>Yeah, what is the River? Is it in some sense sentient, perhaps even a
>god or demon, or merely the "tentacles" of something sentient?
I've always thought _Brokedown Palace_ wasn't meant to be analyzsed so
closely. The Dragaera proper books are fantasy which feels a bit like science
fiction; BP is fantasy which feels like fantasy. Or a faerie tale. Weird
shit happens. The Empire has magic as science, as means to understand the
universe; the East has magic as magic, a narrative flow to the universe.
I could, of course, be wrong. And in _Issola_ they talk about witchcraft as
something fairly rational (understanding and changing the universe). Then
again, they're used to thinking that way.
I suspect the River is the River, frustrating though that may be.
>Is _The Gypsy_ in the same universe, or just an interesting point of
>comparison? (What I'm really asking is, am I still one book short of
>having read all the books in that universe?)
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/books.html
I believe your reading is complete.
-xx- Damien X-)
Thomas Yan
Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
> Thomas Yan wrote:
>>
>> In article <GHvns...@kithrup.com>,
>> David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>
>> [Spoilers for all books up through (publication order)
>> Issola, Brokedown Palace, and 500 Years After]
>
> Does this mean you're not going to spoil the unwritten books? :)
:) But seriously, I was trying to be friendly to anyone who came
across this thread many years from now. Myself, when DejaGoogling,
have often been stumped by the annoyingly vague warning "spoilers",
since I usually had no idea what books had been published up to that
point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
>>> local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
>>> [...]
>>
>> The character I remember in TPG was called Crionofenarr. Was that, in
>> fact, Fennar? If so, is "Criono" his first name or a title?
>
> Crionofenarr specifically says he's using a name altered to Dragaeran
> standards.
Oops, oh yeah, he chose a Dragaeran name because "[...] my own name
should be very difficult for you [... but Crinofenar ...] inspires me
in my task." (TPG, ch30, p366).
> The Legend of Fenarr makes it pretty clear they're the same person.
Ah, I am an idiot. My first brief attempt to make the legend fit the
account in TPG failed. I guess the bit about the horse talking
distracted me from the significant bit about the horse being destroyed
and Fenarr being distraught about that. Hm, I wonder if Bolk actually
was around, or if indeed that was Bolk. "I remember Fenarr, [...] but
my memory differs from the legends [...]" (BP, ch1, p13).
-snip-
>> Tangent 2: In _Issola_, Verra says she cannot manifest among the
>> Jenoine and that it is the fault of some Easterners, but not any of
>> Vlad's ancestors, as it was a blood prince and he is of peasant stock.
>> Huh? Verra *does* show up in Jenoinesburg in _Issola_, and Miklos
>> seems to be an Easterner blood prince who barred her from *Fenario*.
>> So, is Verra referring to stuff we don't know much/anything about, or
>> what?
>
> No, you misremember it; she was referring to Fenario.
Oops again, but to be precise, as others have pointed out, I mis*read*
it. I thought her "cannot appear" remark was a clarification of her
"cannot be" remark (_Issola_, ch5, p78), not a separate and additional
remark.
-snip-
> Have you read "A Dream of Passion" yet? [...]
> Note that it's canonicity (that probably isn't a real word) is still
> being debated.
Yup, and I was one who argued that if it was to take place, it would
have to do so fairly far in the future.
David Silberstein
Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <3B7AEFBB...@worldnet.att.net>,
>Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Thomas Yan wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <GHvns...@kithrup.com>,
>>> David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>
>>> [Spoilers for all books up through (publication order)
>>> Issola, Brokedown Palace, and 500 Years After]
>>
>> Does this mean you're not going to spoil the unwritten books? :)
>
>:) But seriously, I was trying to be friendly to anyone who came
>across this thread many years from now. Myself, when DejaGoogling,
>have often been stumped by the annoyingly vague warning "spoilers",
>since I usually had no idea what books had been published up to that
>point.
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> About one thousand years earlier, Fenarr, seeking to end raids on the
>>>> local peoples by the Faerie (Dragaerans), made a treaty with Khaavren,
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>> The character I remember in TPG was called Crionofenarr. Was that, in
>>> fact, Fennar? If so, is "Criono" his first name or a title?
>>
>> Crionofenarr specifically says he's using a name altered to Dragaeran
>> standards.
>
>Oops, oh yeah, he chose a Dragaeran name because "[...] my own name
>should be very difficult for you [... but Crinofenar ...] inspires me
>in my task." (TPG, ch30, p366).
And I was wondering if perhaps the prefix "Criono" means something
subservient, perhaps in the old language of the Iorich (the Viscount
Fenarr had served under). No proof, just a feeling - a rebel or
outlaw might take as a name the insult most often flung at him, in
order to inspire him in his veangance against those who slighted him.
>> The Legend of Fenarr makes it pretty clear they're the same person.
>
>Ah, I am an idiot. My first brief attempt to make the legend fit the
>account in TPG failed. I guess the bit about the horse talking
>distracted me from the significant bit about the horse being destroyed
>and Fenarr being distraught about that. Hm, I wonder if Bolk actually
>was around, or if indeed that was Bolk. "I remember Fenarr, [...] but
>my memory differs from the legends [...]" (BP, ch1, p13).
>
I thought it was overwhelmingly obvious - only one táltos horse is
mentioned in the story of Fenarr, helping him in his quest, so a
helpful táltos horse that remembers him must be the same horse,
even if it is 1000 years later.
Of course, if you note that Crionofenarr says the horse's name was
Wisdom (TPG, pg 374), and learn that "Bölcsesség" (BP, pg 10) means
"Wisdom" in Hungarian, I think the matter may be considered proven.
Incidentally, the Hungarian/English dictionary I've been using is at
this site:
http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary
I've found it very useful in analyzing _Brokedown Palace_.
Chris Byler
She's a Dragon, not a Lyorn. Don't expect historical accuracy.
(OTOH, Paarfi isn't a Lyorn either - he's a Hawk. The only other Hawk
to have ever appeared in a Dragaera work, IIRC, is Daymar. Draw from
this what conclusions you can.)
--
Chris Byler cby...@vt.edu
Kubera: "It occurred to me that Sam would be the number one suspect,
except for the fact that he was dead."
Sam: "I had assumed that to be sufficient defense against detection."
-- Roger Zelazny, _Lord of Light_
Thomas Yan
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <9lfbm7$n1a$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
> Thomas Yan <ty...@twinkie.cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>> In article <3B7AEFBB...@worldnet.att.net>,
>> Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
Spoilers for Brokedown Palace and The Phoenix Guards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
[re: Fenarr = Crionofenarr?]
-snip-
>>> The Legend of Fenarr makes it pretty clear they're the same person.
>>
>> Ah, I am an idiot. My first brief attempt to make the legend fit the
>> account in TPG failed. I guess the bit about the horse talking
>> distracted me from the significant bit about the horse being destroyed
>> and Fenarr being distraught about that. Hm, I wonder if Bolk actually
>> was around, or if indeed that was Bolk. "I remember Fenarr, [...] but
>> my memory differs from the legends [...]" (BP, ch1, p13).
>
> I thought it was overwhelmingly obvious - only one táltos horse is
> mentioned in the story of Fenarr, helping him in his quest, so a
> helpful táltos horse that remembers him must be the same horse,
> even if it is 1000 years later.
>
> Of course, if you note that Crionofenarr says the horse's name was
> Wisdom (TPG, pg 374), and learn that "Bölcsesség" (BP, pg 10) means
> "Wisdom" in Hungarian, I think the matter may be considered proven.
I guess you're right (e.g., if I had to place a bet, I'd bet so), but
I remain distracted by discrepancies. Let's distinguish among:
(0) What actually happened,
(1) Paarfi's account in TPG,
(2) the Legend in BP, and
(3) what Bolk remembers.
If we assume that when (1) and (2) agree on elements, they are true,
then I believe we have [please view in a monospaced font!]:
(0) (1) (2) (3)
--- --- --- ---
yes yes yes yes? Fenarr loves his horse; they shared many hardships
yes yes yes yes? Fenarr's horse is white
? no yes ? Fenarr's horse talks at the encounter
? yes no! yes? Fenarr's horse is explicitly named Bolk/Wisdom
yes yes yes yes? Kav/Khaavren is there
yes yes yes yes? Fenarr has a Morganti sword
? ? ? ? Fenarr's horse *is* the god Bolk
I find it potentially significant that:
+ Fenarr's horse does not talk in (1), and possibly not in (3).
+ Bolk says (2) and (3) do not match.
+ Bolk/Wisdom is not mentioned in (2), and furthermore, Miklos does
not recognize Bolk's name. (Hm. Doesn't Miklos speak Fenarian? If
so, what is "wisdom" in Fenarian, and why would Miklos have trouble
pronouncing Bolk's full name, which is Hungarian/Fenarian in
pronunciation?)
> Incidentally, the Hungarian/English dictionary I've been using is at
> this site:
> http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary
> I've found it very useful in analyzing _Brokedown Palace_.
Thanks!
David Silberstein
I have no real argument for the above, other than to say that
Fenarians seem to have this habit of turning their history into
stories. Bölk may think this to be appropriate, and therefore
Wise. :-)
Of course, there is also the possibility that any speaking was
for Fenarr's (or Fenarians') ears alone (c.f., different people
hearing different things).
>+ Bolk/Wisdom is not mentioned in (2), and furthermore, Miklos does
> not recognize Bolk's name. (Hm. Doesn't Miklos speak Fenarian? If
> so, what is "wisdom" in Fenarian, and why would Miklos have trouble
> pronouncing Bolk's full name, which is Hungarian/Fenarian in
> pronunciation?)
>
Again, I have no good answer for this, other than to point at this
web page:
http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#Eastern
Which says:
---------
[Wisdom] "Bölcseség" means "wisdom". Miklós finds it hard to
pronounce, and the táltos offers "Bölk" as an alternative.
If Fenarian is Hungarian, why would a Fenarian find a Hungarian
word hard to pronounce? Because we're pretending that everyone
is speaking English, and the average American reader would stumble
over "Bölcseség" every time, or else skip over it.
---------
Which is not really a good answer (I think the text could have
been written so that Miklós would not have had trouble with his
own language).
Chad R. Orzel
Sullivan) wrote:
>I don't remember the theory being that well developed... buy Graydon
>speculated that Vlad is a Taltos, and Interesting Things will happen if anyone
>tries to starve him. Plus he fell asleep in the Paths. (I just blame that on
>Devera weirdness.) Someone said Vlad valued food too much to give it up just
>for vast mystical power, and the counter was "Why do you think his family
>taught him how to cook?"
Of course, the more important follow-up to that was Brust himself
saying "Thank you. That's the best ecidence yet that I've managed to
convey the true essence of the character" or some such...
Later,
OilCan
Thomas Yan
David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
-snip-
> http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#Eastern
[says]
> mam: [Wisdom] "Bölcseség" means "wisdom". Miklós finds it hard to
> mam: pronounce, and the táltos offers "Bölk" as an alternative.
> mam: If Fenarian is Hungarian, why would a Fenarian find a Hungarian
> mam: word hard to pronounce? Because we're pretending that everyone
> mam: is speaking English, and the average American reader would stumble
> mam: over "Bölcseség" every time, or else skip over it.
-snip-
Hm. I wonder if Vlad's problem with "Jen-o-ine" (_Jhereg_, ch9, p80
in _The Book of Jhereg_) makes sense from a Dragaeran or Fenarian
perspective, but written/translated as an English-perspective problem.