AS and Asha'man bond
Daniel Giblett
Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
impose on the Warder. For example:
Rand and Alanna - When she tried to use compulsion on him she
described it as like trying to uproot a tree.
Logain and the two AS he has in tow - he seems to be completely in
charge of everything there.
Merise and Jahar - she has taken the sword and dragon pins from him
that mark him as being Asha'man and he seems pretty annoyed about it
to say the least. This isn't something he would have LET her do
surely.
Any thoughts on this?
Daniel.
Mitchell Swan
He's pussy whipped. Really, even though this is Jordan, you can't
really expect every man to act the same. Even though he's an
Asha'man, he might not have the strength of character to resist
Merise's pressure.
Mat, Gareth and Uno are probably the only men who can't channel who
don't fall over backwards at every woman's whim. It would seem
necessary to have at least one man who can channel who *does* fall
over at every woman's whim.
Generalizing, obviously.
--
Mitch
Eric Means
> I had always thought that when an AS and and Asha'man bonded, the
> Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
> impose on the Warder. For example:
ISTR that someone who is holding the Power is immune to Compulsion.
It seems likely that an AS's ability to impose her will on her Warder
is a form of Compulsion (all AS protestations against that particular
Talent aside).
IIRC when Alanna bonded Rand he seized Saidin immediately; when she
tried to Compel him, he was holding the Power and thus immune to it.
Had she tried when he was *not* holding the Power things might have
been different.
It's also possible that Merise convinced Jahar to do it for some other
reason; women have been making men do things they didn't want to for
thousands of years *without* the Power or bonds, after all. ;)
Cyrus Levesque
I think there's two types of Bonding. There's the Warder bond, and the
Asha'Man
heard about it and tried to simulate it and came up with their own
version, which like everything else between male and female
channelers, is similar but not identical.
A male channeller made a Warder - Rand, Jahar - gets the benefits of
it like increased stanima and awareness of his AS, but they can't be
controlled by the bond.
However, a female that is bonded BY an AM is different; not only can
they be controlled but I think it might not even involve channeling.
I'm not sure about this, but think about how Merillile commands Lan
somewhere in LoC (ACoS?). Now compare it to how casually Logain
commands his AS just by telling them what to do. We haven't had a POV
of an AM doing that yet so we don't know, but that's my opinion.
We know that Alanna can't control Rand and that Logain can somehow
control Toveine. What about Merise and Jahar? All I can figure is that
Jahar chooses to obey her. He's spent enough time around AS that he's
taking being a Warder as a mark of honor, and he's trying to do it
right.
BTW, as I was looking through through CoT for the reference to that, I
found yet another problem of the whole Cadsuane mystery: during a POV,
she thought "He moved like a striking blacklance." [Ch. 23,
"Ornaments"] I didn't know AS knew about those things. I guess a brown
might, but Cadsuane? We know she's not BA (some POV in PoD or WH where
she thinks about failing to unmask the BA), and all the female
Forsaken seem to be accounted for, so how would she know what a
blacklance is, let alone think about it casually?
Richard Boye
> Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
> impose on the Warder. For example:
> Rand and Alanna - When she tried to use compulsion on him she
> described it as like trying to uproot a tree.
It seems that way, yes. At least when the Ashaman is actively
channeling, anyway. If you recall, when Alanna dropped her bond on
Rand, he felt woozy and immediately grasped Saidin - once that
happened, Alanna couldn't work her mojo on him.
This seems vaguely analogous to those times that Rahvin held on to
Saidin to avoid getting Compelled when Lanfear and Graendal were near,
and this is corroborated by Sammael keeping Saidin because he's wary
of Graendal and her Compulsive abilities.
> Logain and the two AS he has in tow - he seems to be completely in
> charge of everything there.
Yes, but keep in mind that he dropped his bond on them when they were
shielded, the bond laced with Compulsion as it is, and then gave them
a direct order not to channel unless he gives express permission, so
they seem incapable of embracing Saidar in order to blunt Logain's
commands.
> Merise and Jahar - she has taken the sword and dragon pins from him
> that mark him as being Asha'man and he seems pretty annoyed about it
> to say the least. This isn't something he would have LET her do
> surely.
>
> Any thoughts on this?
Sure:
1) We don't really know how Jahar would react to that - the bonding of
those Asha'warders to Cadsuane's Cadsworn is very mysterious. The
bonds came out left field, and they all seem to have struck up very
distinct relationships with one another. Merise treats Jahar just like
any other gaidin, and Jahar seems to like it that way.
What I do suspect is that the Aes Sedai bond helps ward off the Taint
(irrelvant that its gone now) and that is why the Ashaman were eager
to be bonded. It also strikes as me connected to the fact that it is
Cadsuane's loyal coterie that bonds them, and that Cadsuane has a
history of assisting channeling men, (resist the taint and help
gentled men live longer), so originally Eben, Damer and Jahar were
happy to accept the bond.
2) Secondly, if we assume that Merise *is* Compelling Jahar (which I
don't believe), then perhaps she gave him a direct order that he can't
channel without her say-so, and therefore that's why he seems to
passive to her directives.
--
RMB
wa...@webspan.net
Indigo Wombat
> BTW, as I was looking through through CoT for the reference to that, I
> found yet another problem of the whole Cadsuane mystery: during a POV,
> she thought "He moved like a striking blacklance." [Ch. 23,
> "Ornaments"] I didn't know AS knew about those things. I guess a brown
> might, but Cadsuane? We know she's not BA (some POV in PoD or WH where
> she thinks about failing to unmask the BA), and all the female
> Forsaken seem to be accounted for, so how would she know what a
> blacklance is, let alone think about it casually?
I think you're confusing the word "blacklance" for "shocklance", which was a
weapon in the Age of Legends. I agree that Cadsuane knowing about
shocklances would seem to be a stretch. A blacklance is probably a variety
of snake in Randland, judging by the way RJ creates fictional names for the
local flora and fauna.
HTH.
--
The Indigo Wombat
Marsupial of Might
Vanessa Karam
news:ab6e9530.03020...@posting.google.com...
[snip stuff about Asha'man warders]
> Logain and the two AS he has in tow - he seems to be completely in
> charge of everything there.
While we're on the subject, what exactly is "the extra bit" included in
the Asha'man's wife-bonding??? I have my suspiscions, but it would be
nice to know that I'm not the only sicko out there who thinks that the
women get off on the bonding(on this newsgroup, I KNOW that can't be
possible). Allow me to quote Toveine's bonding:
"She had only a heartbeat to realize his lips were touching hers,
then sight vanished, and warmth flooded through her. More than warmth.
She was melting honey inside, bubbling honey, rushing towards the boil.
She was a harpstring, vibrating faster and faster, vibrating to
invisibility and faster still. She was a thin crystal vase, quivering on
the brink of shattering. The harpstring broke; the vase shattered.
"'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!'"
"...For a moment she could not think coherently. Panting..."
Logain: "I could have done without the extra bit...yet I suppose it's
necessary. You're hardly a wife." (tPoD, The Extra Bit)
I wish my boyfriend could do that with a kiss!!
But, I digress. It seems there is more to the bond than the sign-on
perks...
In WH, Gabrelle tells Toveine what it's like being in bed with Logain:
Gabrelle: "I wonder whether it's like that for ordinary women."..."I
felt...helpless."..."He was...in charge, I suppose, though that isn't
quite right. Just...stronger, and I knew it. It felt...strangely
exhilarating" (WH, Snow)
Ok, so maybe we can just chalk this up to Gabrelle being Aes Sedai and at
the wrong end of the bond, but it seems like there is more she is hinting
at. We definitely see that there is more to it when we get her POV in the
prologue to CoT, but I'm not quite sure what that "more" is exactly:
"Playing the Domani turned out to hide many surprises, and a few
pitfalls. Worst of all, a trap she could never reveal to anyone.
Something she very much feared that Toveine knew, though, at least in
part. But then, any sister who had followed her lead must know, too, and
she thought several had. ... Logain could mask the bond...but sometimes
when they shared a pillow, he let the masking slip. To say the least, the
results were...devastating. There was no calm restraint, then, no cool
study. Not much of reason at all." (CoT, Glimmers of the Pattern)
I initially assumed that the "trap" she fears revealing was that she and
Logain were falling in love, which to an AS would be about like falling
in love with Charles Manson. Or Saddam Hussein. The "devastating" effects
seem to indicate an intimacy that makes Aes Sedai serenity
impossible--maybe Gabrelle and the bonded AS even find themselves willing
to give up being AS in order to be with their Asha'man? Could that be it?
I feel like I have a general understanding of the sexual nature of the
Asha'man "wife-bonding," but it sounds more insidious than I am
imagining. Gabrelle hints at "many" surprises and "a few" pitfalls, plus
the "worst-of-all" trap. Any ideas?
Vanessa
PS- I feel like this must have been discussed before, but I've pretty
much memorized the FAQ and did another search, and still couldn't find
anything. So my apologies if this has already been answered, and a
request for pointers to said answers.
Leigh Butler
>daniel_...@hotmail.com (Daniel Giblett) wrote in message news:<ab6e9530.03020...@posting.google.com>...
>> I had always thought that when an AS and and Asha'man bonded, the
>> Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
>> impose on the Warder. For example:
>> Rand and Alanna - When she tried to use compulsion on him she
>> described it as like trying to uproot a tree.
>
>It seems that way, yes. At least when the Ashaman is actively
>channeling, anyway. If you recall, when Alanna dropped her bond on
>Rand, he felt woozy and immediately grasped Saidin - once that
>happened, Alanna couldn't work her mojo on him.
>
>This seems vaguely analogous to those times that Rahvin held on to
>Saidin to avoid getting Compelled when Lanfear and Graendal were near,
>and this is corroborated by Sammael keeping Saidin because he's wary
>of Graendal and her Compulsive abilities.
Hrm. I'd forgotten about those bits. Interesting.
>> Logain and the two AS he has in tow - he seems to be completely in
>> charge of everything there.
>
>Yes, but keep in mind that he dropped his bond on them when they were
>shielded, the bond laced with Compulsion as it is, and then gave them
>a direct order not to channel unless he gives express permission, so
>they seem incapable of embracing Saidar in order to blunt Logain's
>commands.
Yeah, but.
I think that's different. The "extra bit" was something incorporated
into the bond itself. Maybe he couldn't have bonded them in the first
place had they not been shielded - probably not, actually - but once
the bond was in place, I don't think holding saidar would help them.
The reason I say that is because we know that the bonded AS do get to
channel on occasion - in WH Logain made one of them Heal Toviene after
the others were beating on her. If they could break away from the
Compulsion aspect of the Asha'man bond while holding saidar they
wouldn't be allowed to channel at all.
The Compulsion used in the Asha'man bond, then, is different from
whatever method the AS bond uses to compel Warders to obey. Perhaps
because the AM bond "extra bit" was likely designed to be able to
handle the possibility of a channelling bondee in the first place,
while the AS bond isn't.
>> Merise and Jahar - she has taken the sword and dragon pins from him
>> that mark him as being Asha'man and he seems pretty annoyed about it
>> to say the least. This isn't something he would have LET her do
>> surely.
>>
>> Any thoughts on this?
>
>Sure:
>
>1) We don't really know how Jahar would react to that - the bonding of
>those Asha'warders to Cadsuane's Cadsworn is very mysterious. The
>bonds came out left field, and they all seem to have struck up very
>distinct relationships with one another. Merise treats Jahar just like
>any other gaidin, and Jahar seems to like it that way.
Which completely blows my mind, by the way.
But, hey. Some people are a bottom...
>What I do suspect is that the Aes Sedai bond helps ward off the Taint
>(irrelvant that its gone now) and that is why the Ashaman were eager
>to be bonded. It also strikes as me connected to the fact that it is
>Cadsuane's loyal coterie that bonds them, and that Cadsuane has a
>history of assisting channeling men, (resist the taint and help
>gentled men live longer), so originally Eben, Damer and Jahar were
>happy to accept the bond.
Enh. I think the (backhanded) explanation we got for the whole state
of affairs is that Flinn et al were afraid to go back to the BT, since
Taim had branded them as traitors, and Rand was nowhere to be found at
the time, so Cadsuane took advantage of the situation and basically
said, "What, alone and friendless and hunted? I'll protect you.
There's just one condition..."
I don't really buy the idea that the AS bond gives partial protection
from the Taint, personally. I think that the reason the men gentled at
Cadsuane's hands lived longer was because she was simply better at
handling half-sane male channellers, both before and after gentling.
Whatever else you can say about her, she _does_ show herself to be
astute at pressing the right psychological buttons to get the reaction
she wants out of people.
>2) Secondly, if we assume that Merise *is* Compelling Jahar (which I
>don't believe), then perhaps she gave him a direct order that he can't
>channel without her say-so, and therefore that's why he seems to
>passive to her directives.
I don't believe it either. I think it is a personality thing at work
here.
--
Leigh Butler leigh_...@paramount.com
******************************************************
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those
of Paramount Pictures or its affiliates.
Richard Boye'
>
> On 4 Feb 2003 10:01:19 -0800, wa...@webspan.net (Richard Boye) wrote:
> >daniel_...@hotmail.com (Daniel Giblett) wrote in message news:<ab6e9530.03020...@posting.google.com>...
>
> >> I had always thought that when an AS and and Asha'man bonded, the
> >> Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
> >> impose on the Warder. For example:
> >> Rand and Alanna - When she tried to use compulsion on him she
> >> described it as like trying to uproot a tree.
> >> Logain and the two AS he has in tow - he seems to be completely in
> >> charge of everything there.
> >
> >Yes, but keep in mind that he dropped his bond on them when they were
> >shielded, the bond laced with Compulsion as it is, and then gave them
> >a direct order not to channel unless he gives express permission, so
> >they seem incapable of embracing Saidar in order to blunt Logain's
> >commands.
>
> Yeah, but.
>
> I think that's different. The "extra bit" was something incorporated
> into the bond itself. Maybe he couldn't have bonded them in the first
> place had they not been shielded - probably not, actually - but once
> the bond was in place, I don't think holding saidar would help them.
Correct. The "extra bit," though is the Compulsive aspect. It's "extra"
to the Asha'man-wife bond. It's not extra to the Aes Sedai-warder bond.
But anyway, it's a cause and effect sorta thing. When an Aes Sedai uses
Compulsion to, duh, Compel a warder, it requires active channeling as
seen with Myrelle and Lan. However, what Logain and his cronies did was
to "front-load" their bonds with directions, i.e.,"Don't channel unless
I tell you to."
The subdued Aes Sedai are bound by that directive and whatever the rest
of them were or are (like when Logain gave Toveine instructions not to
rifle through his papers - given much later), regardless of whether he
is actively tweaking the bond or not. Spoken commands have them in
absolute thrall.
Which, in a round-a-bout way, leads me to agree with you. However, if
the Aes Sedai had been able to hold Saidar when Logain tried his mojo on
them, perhaps the bond would have grasped them as firmly as it appears.
Who knows, really.
> >What I do suspect is that the Aes Sedai bond helps ward off the Taint
> >(irrelvant that its gone now) and that is why the Ashaman were eager
> >to be bonded. It also strikes as me connected to the fact that it is
> >Cadsuane's loyal coterie that bonds them, and that Cadsuane has a
> >history of assisting channeling men, (resist the taint and help
> >gentled men live longer), so originally Eben, Damer and Jahar were
> >happy to accept the bond.
>
> Enh. I think the (backhanded) explanation we got for the whole state
> of affairs is that Flinn et al were afraid to go back to the BT, since
> Taim had branded them as traitors, and Rand was nowhere to be found at
> the time, so Cadsuane took advantage of the situation and basically
> said, "What, alone and friendless and hunted? I'll protect you.
> There's just one condition..."
>
> I don't really buy the idea that the AS bond gives partial protection
> from the Taint, personally. I think that the reason the men gentled at
> Cadsuane's hands lived longer was because she was simply better at
> handling half-sane male channellers, both before and after gentling.
>
> Whatever else you can say about her, she _does_ show herself to be
> astute at pressing the right psychological buttons to get the reaction
> she wants out of people.
I guess - I am still waiting though for a fuller explaination.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void:
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
Aleister
I am wondering if it is a question of strength.
Rand is much stronger than Alanna, and she is unable to force him to
do anything.
Logain is much stronger than the Aes Sedai he bonded. I am also
willing to bet that any Ashaman that went hunting the Aes Sedai were
also not weak, and they seem to be able to command their bonded.
I have lent my book out so cannot back this next part with any direct
quotes, but I was left with the feeling that Merise might be stronger
than Jahar. Also that it was unusually difficult for her to get him
to give her the pins. We might assume from Merise and Cadsuanes'
covnersation that Jahar is still growing in strength, one of the
reasons I though Merise was stronger, and if that is the case and it
is tied to strength, Merise may soon be unable to use the warder bond
as she has.
I am also curious to see how Rand will handle an Aes Sedai stipping
one of his Ashamen of rank. I wouldn't imagine he would take it well,
but he might be worried of Cadsuane.
Aleister
Sean-Michael
Daniel Giblett wrote:
>I had always thought that when an AS and and Asha'man bonded, the
>Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
>impose on the Warder. For example:
>
>Rand and Alanna - When she tried to use compulsion on him she
>described it as like trying to uproot a tree.
>
>
I believe Rand figured out what she was doing and cut her off.
>Logain and the two AS he has in tow - he seems to be completely in
>charge of everything there.
>
>
He forced them to swear fealty or die?
>Merise and Jahar - she has taken the sword and dragon pins from him
>that mark him as being Asha'man and he seems pretty annoyed about it
>to say the least. This isn't something he would have LET her do
>surely.
>
>
Doesn't necessarily need compulsion to do this to him. Women can be
bitches regardless of the OP. Maybe he handed them over just to make
her shut up :)
>Any thoughts on this?
>
>Daniel.
>
>
Yes, I'm divorced, and not bitter at all :)
Sean-Michael
Peter Reid
> BTW, as I was looking through through CoT for the reference to that, I
> found yet another problem of the whole Cadsuane mystery: during a POV,
> she thought "He moved like a striking blacklance." [Ch. 23,
> "Ornaments"] I didn't know AS knew about those things. I guess a brown
> might, but Cadsuane? We know she's not BA (some POV in PoD or WH where
> she thinks about failing to unmask the BA), and all the female
> Forsaken seem to be accounted for, so how would she know what a
> blacklance is, let alone think about it casually?
What the hell is a blacklance, and why is it significant?
--
Peter Reid
peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca
Mani Annamalai
"Peter Reid" <peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3E4144AF...@CAPSsympatico.ca...
Cyrus is thinking of _shocklance_, an AoLegends weapon. A blacklanc is
probably a Randlander snake.
--
Mani Annamalai
NULLUS ANXIETAS
Jared Leisner
> Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
> impose on the Warder. For example:
>
> charge of everything there.
>
> Merise and Jahar - she has taken the sword and dragon pins from him
> that mark him as being Asha'man and he seems pretty annoyed about it
> to say the least. This isn't something he would have LET her do
> surely.
Greetings everyone. I just started the Wheel of Time series over the
holiday season (finished CoT last week) and have poking through this
newgroup for about a week now. I've only read through the books once,
so I may (will) miss some nuances. This is my first time posting, but
I just wanted to expand on something up that Cyrus Levesque touched
upon: The difference between saidin and saidar.
If it is appropriate, look at the bracelet-collar sets. When a woman
wears the bracelets and has a male channeler collared (I am making
the assumption that they work on similar compulsion principles), she
loses control and he gains control. As opposed to the control in the
woman-woman set being absolute.
This suggests to me that there is a fundamental difference between
saidar and saidin here (just like saidin takes the heat from a candle
and puts it into stone while saidar cools it down or blows it out).
How do you use channel saidar? You surrender to it and let it take you
where you want to go. How do you channel saidin? You seize control and
force it to do what you want.
Could it be that a male channeler, by just channeling saidin, can not
be controlled in the long term by saidar? Jahar may be under control
now, but he should (if I'm anywhere close to the truth) eventually
break free of her control.
I'm not sure if he will eventually take control of Merise since the
bond does not seem to be enough for her to force him to channel like
the collars allow.
Jess
to the general public. Gaidin are very strict on formalities and on
obeying their AS in public, if not in private. To the general public
- which the Asha'men were just a few short months ago - being a warder
is akin to being a knight: it's like a fairy tale of danger, honor,
valour, and adventure that every young boy dreams about. Perhaps the
Asha'men who were bonded had - and perhaps have - those stories in
mind.
Why did Logain kiss to seal the bond? I think it's because he needed
to distract the AS. Remember when Verin was compulsing the AS
captives she had to get them off balance - what could possibly set a
Red more off balance than a man suddenly kissing her?? The "heat" she
felt was the Compulsion web setting itself onto her.
jess
back from vacation
Kutulu
wrote:
>daniel_...@hotmail.com (Daniel Giblett) wrote in message news:<ab6e9530.03020...@posting.google.com>...
>> I had always thought that when an AS and and Asha'man bonded, the
>> Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
>> impose on the Warder. For example:
>>
>> Rand and Alanna - When she tried to use compulsion on him she
>> described it as like trying to uproot a tree.
>>
>> Logain and the two AS he has in tow - he seems to be completely in
>> charge of everything there.
>>
>> Merise and Jahar - she has taken the sword and dragon pins from him
>> that mark him as being Asha'man and he seems pretty annoyed about it
>> to say the least. This isn't something he would have LET her do
>> surely.
>>
>> Any thoughts on this?
>>
>> Daniel.
>
>I think there's two types of Bonding. There's the Warder bond, and the
>Asha'Man
>heard about it and tried to simulate it and came up with their own
>version, which like everything else between male and female
>channelers, is similar but not identical.
[...]
>We know that Alanna can't control Rand and that Logain can somehow
>control Toveine. What about Merise and Jahar? All I can figure is that
>Jahar chooses to obey her. He's spent enough time around AS that he's
>taking being a Warder as a mark of honor, and he's trying to do it
>right.
Perhaps is has something to do with the relative strength of the
channelers on either end of the bond?
I don't have any citations showing how powerful Logain's two bonded AS
are, but I recall Logain being relatively powerful, and we all know
Rand is as strong as they come. Anyone trying to Compel him would get
the same reaction Alanna got: trying to 'uproot a tree'.
Someone help me out here: have Elayne or Aviendha ever tried to
'compel' Rand, or he them? Aviendha especially may be close to him in
the OP, it would be an interesting experiment.
As far as the bond being a form of Compulsion, there's one key
difference between the bond and "real" Compulsion. People being
Compelled don't seem to realize they are being Compelled, but bonded
Warders always seem well aware of what the bond is making them do.
--K
Alinet2
>I think there's two types of Bonding. There's the Warder bond, and the
>Asha'Man
>heard about it and tried to simulate it and came up with their own
>version, which like everything else
>between male and female
>channelers, is similar but not identical.
I think it's in Lord of Chaos that one of the Ashaman tells Perrin that he can
feel that his wife is all right, that she misses him. It' something one of
them thought up to bond the married couples when they were apart.
William Stewart
> Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
> impose on the Warder. For example:
>
> Rand and Alanna - When she tried to use compulsion on him she
> described it as like trying to uproot a tree.
I think that this may not be an issue of strength in the power, but an
aspect of Rand's being a ta'veren. A ta'veren has a very narrow path
in the pattern, and controls the weaving of other threads around him,
to compel a ta'veren would probably be a very difficult thing to do
with the warder bond alone. It would probably take a full compulsion
weave to do this.
Cyrus Levesque
> Cyrus Levesque wrote:
>
>[snip]
> I think you're confusing the word "blacklance" for "shocklance", which was a
> weapon in the Age of Legends. I agree that Cadsuane knowing about
> shocklances would seem to be a stretch. A blacklance is probably a variety
> of snake in Randland, judging by the way RJ creates fictional names for the
> local flora and fauna.
>
> HTH.
That could be, the only book I have here with me is CoT, so I didn't
have anything to check it against. My mistake.
Daniel Giblett
Ha ha ha ha ha...that made me laugh. :)
Daniel.
Daniel Giblett
Actually this explaination makes the most sense to me.
Daniel.
Richard Boye
For future reference, the perferred style in this group is to leave in
the bit of text that you are replying to, along with the attribution
line. It just makes it easier for everyone to follow the conversation.
Anyway...
JustT...@aol.com (Jess) wrote in message
news:<59a08d73.03020...@posting.google.com>...
> Let's not forget about what "being a Warder" means to the gaidin and
> to the general public. Gaidin are very strict on formalities and on
> obeying their AS in public, if not in private. To the general public
> - which the Asha'men were just a few short months ago - being a warder
> is akin to being a knight: it's like a fairy tale of danger, honor,
> valour, and adventure that every young boy dreams about. Perhaps the
> Asha'men who were bonded had - and perhaps have - those stories in
> mind.
I agree with that, to an extent. To the general public from countries
not hostile to the White Tower and the Aes Sedai. Being a gaidin hold
the same sort of romantic appeal that being an Aes Sedai (and a Green
one at that) apparently holds for young girls - they all start out
with notions of heroism and valor (although some also probably feel
drawn to the Yellows as well), only as they are schooled to they split
off towards to more arcane Ajahs like Brown, Gray or White.
I cannot imagine any young girl dreaming of being a White sister,
frex.
> Why did Logain kiss to seal the bond? I think it's because he needed
> to distract the AS.
Actually, I think it has to do with the way he learned it. Aes Sedai
(or channelers) who learn to do a weave coupled with a physical
gesture need to do the physical gesture to do the weave *every time*
- it's hard to overcome it once you learned it a certain way. The Aiel
sneer at the Aes Sedai for "hand-waving" when the channel, and there
are Aes Sedai who can tell which sister taught by which by the
gestures they use.
Logain even apologizes for the kiss saying that's how he learned it.
The guy who "invented" the wife-bond (Grady?) then passed it on, kiss
and all.
That's why Logain even says "you're hardly a wife" to Toveine.
If a mere physical distraction is needed, a slap or a pinch would do
as well. Linadrin needed a physical distraction to make her crude
Compulsion work, so she'd cause a pin-prick with Air.
> Remember when Verin was compulsing the AS
> captives she had to get them off balance - what could possibly set a
> Red more off balance than a man suddenly kissing her??
Yeah, but not all the Aes Sedai bonded were Reds, after all. Logain's
other is a Brown, and there are many man-hungry Greens in the Black
Tower as well.
Besides, Toveine is a Red rarity - she likes sex with men (she is
Domani), albeit young, passive boys she can control. I don't know if
she would be as repulsed by a kiss.
> The "heat" she
> felt was the Compulsion web setting itself onto her.
This I agree with.
--
RMB
wa...@webspan.net
Frederik Homann
> > >> I had always thought that when an AS and and Asha'man bonded, the
> > >> Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
> > >> impose on the Warder. For example:
> > >> Rand and Alanna - When she tried to use compulsion on him she
> > >> described it as like trying to uproot a tree.
>
> > >
> > >Yes, but keep in mind that he dropped his bond on them when they were
> > >shielded, the bond laced with Compulsion as it is, and then gave them
> > >a direct order not to channel unless he gives express permission, so
> > >they seem incapable of embracing Saidar in order to blunt Logain's
> > >commands.
> > I think that's different. The "extra bit" was something incorporated
> > into the bond itself. Maybe he couldn't have bonded them in the first
> > place had they not been shielded - probably not, actually - but once
> > the bond was in place, I don't think holding saidar would help them.
>
> Correct. The "extra bit," though is the Compulsive aspect. It's "extra"
> to the Asha'man-wife bond. It's not extra to the Aes Sedai-warder bond.
>
> But anyway, it's a cause and effect sorta thing. When an Aes Sedai uses
> Compulsion to, duh, Compel a warder, it requires active channeling as
> seen with Myrelle and Lan. However, what Logain and his cronies did was
> to "front-load" their bonds with directions, i.e.,"Don't channel unless
> I tell you to."
>
> Has anyone thought on the idea that this feat, Logain and other male channelers use, máy be the direct "channelflow" like the Tower's Binding Rod (the Oath Rod)?????
ioanna
> daniel_...@hotmail.com (Daniel Giblett) wrote in message news:<ab6e9530.03020...@posting.google.com>...
> > I had always thought that when an AS and and Asha'man bonded, the
> > Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
> > impose on the Warder. For example:
>
> ISTR that someone who is holding the Power is immune to Compulsion.
> It seems likely that an AS's ability to impose her will on her Warder
> is a form of Compulsion (all AS protestations against that particular
> Talent aside).
>
Why do you think that AS use compulsion on their Warders? That is not
my impression at all. A candidate for a Warder position has to agree
(of his own free will) to take up Warder duties (eg. I think Moiraine
and Lan discuss it and Lan agrees, at the end of NS). That is why you
should never bond someone against their will. It is unethical to force
the warder bond to someone who has not agreed to become a warder. I
think the AS tells the prospective Warder what the deal is "these will
be your duties, and these will be the benefits you get. Do you accept
the position yes or no?" If he agrees she bonds him and he takes up
Warder duties. There is no need to compell him to do anything. He has
agreed to obey/follow the orders/instructions of his AS. If I decide
to join the army (on my own free will) I will obey the orders of my
superior officer, even though I might not like/agree with these
orders. It is my job and my duty and what I have agreed to do. This
deal/agreement has benefits for both parties involved. The AS gets a
personal bodyguard, and the Warder is no longer unemployed.
Additionaly for the Warder it is much better to have an AS to protect
him (with OP), rather than another soldier. So the Warder has added
protection because his superior officer is a channeler and has agreed
to protect him (one of the oaths). As I see it, for someone who has to
live depending on his fighting skills (as opposed to being an
innkeeper, farmer or merchant) a Warder position is the best he could
do (rather than join as a mercenary an army or some royal guard).
Additionaly if he is someone who respects WT and AS (rather than
fear/dislike them) becoming a Warder is a very good deal/opportunity.
I do not know if they seal the AS/Warder agreement in a special manner
(they shake hands on it or exchange oaths eg. AS:" I swear to protect
you", Warder: " I swear to protect you and obey you") Lan in NS: "By
my mother's name I will draw as you say "draw" and sheathe as you say
"sheath". By my mother's name I will come when you say "come" and go
as you say "go". He kissed the blade ... ". Later Moiraine says "There
is a little more." (The bond weave). So first Lan agrees to obey, then
he is bonded. He would obey Moiraine even without the bond, because he
just AGREED (actually swore) to do so. NO COMPULSION anywhere!!
Moiraine did not instruct Lan to say what he said, so other warders
may say something different, if anything at all. But the 2 parties
agree to the partnership (and what it involves) before bonding takes
place. The warder bond is a weave that AS invented and is usefull in
the AS/Warder relationship. So the As use it on those who have agreed
to become Warders. Having a health & location report of the person you
want to protect is very usefull (and is symmetrical/ works both ways).
Additionaly the Warder's stamina is increased (this is an effect of
the bond on the warder only). Also (I think it was mentioned in TEOTW
or TGH) the Warder can sense shadowspawn. I am not sure if AS can also
sense shadowspan (again TEOTW or TGH). If they can, then the bond
makes them share this ability with the Warder. If not it is an extra
ability confered on the warder (like increased stamina). So as I see
it, the warder bond does NOT involve any sort of compulsion
whatsoever. (Compulsion is unethical, plus it is NOT needed. Warders
obey AS of their own free will).
> IIRC when Alanna bonded Rand he seized Saidin immediately; when she
> tried to Compel him, he was holding the Power and thus immune to it.
> Had she tried when he was *not* holding the Power things might have
> been different.
>
Exactly ! Alanna cought Rand by surprise and forced the warder bond on
him without his permission/agreement/approval. That weave IS the
warder bond. (Alana and Rand can sense roughly where the other is, and
whether they are healthy, injured,sick, in distress etc). Immediately
after Alana forced the warder bond on Rand, she tried to do something
extra (NOT DONE to normal warders) compell him, bend him to her will.
She failed. Alana duped Rand by pretending she wanted to heal him
because he looked tired. That is why Rand (unsuspecting) allowed her
to put her hands on his head and channel. Rand felt her checking his
health (so far so good) but then [LOC,ch 10, a saying in the
borderlands] "And suddenly the warmth was heat, one great flash of it,
as if he stood for a heartbeat in the middle of a roaring furnace.
Even after it passed, he felt odd, aware of himself as he never had
been before, aware of Alanna. He swayed, head light, muscles watery.
An echo of confusion and unease rang from Lews Therin. 'What did you
do?' he demanded. In a fury, he seized saidin." So while Rand expects
Alana to check his health and maybe heal him, the 'heat' he feels
warns him that something is not right and Alanna is not healing him
but doing something else. In an instinctive reaction he gets hold of
saidin to defend himself (but it is too late for he is allready bonded
as a warder) but Alana may try to do something more (and she does try.
Her plan is to force a compuslion weave on him, immediately after the
warder bond.But because Rand has in the meantime seized saidin, she
needs first to shield him and then force the compulsion weave on him.
(Either compuslion Weaves do not work if you are holding OP, or Rand
can build a shield around him that the compulsion weave can not
penetrate, or he can use OP for a weave to deflect the compulsion
weave.) However, Alana even joined (linked?) with Verin are not strong
enough to shield Rand, and instead Rand shields both Verin and Alanna
[loc,ch 10]. What saved Rand from the 'compulsion' weave is his quick
reaction (seizing saidin quickly) AND his strength in OP. If he was
weaker in OP than Alana (or Alana and verin combined) he would not be
able to defend himself. They would have shielded him and Alana would
force the 'compulsion' weave on him. Also, even being strong as he is,
if did not realise quickly enough that something is wrong and
immediately seize saidin, Alana would have enough time to force her
second weave (permanent complusion) on him before he could do anything
about it. [loc, ch 49, the mirror of mists] Kiruna: "If you had to
bond a man without asking him, why, by the Light most Holy, have you
not used the bond to bend him to your will?" ...Alanna: "I tried to
compel him moments after I bonded him. .. Have you ever tried to
uproot an oak tree with your bear hands, Kiruna? It was much the
same." So the warder bond and the 'permanent compulsion weave' are 2
different things. ONLY the first (warder bond) is used on Warders,
with their consent (they have agreed to become warders). So why does
Kiruna say "use the bond to bend him to your will" and why did not
Alanna bend Rand to her will (permanent compulsion weave)immediatelly
(when he was not suspecting her intentions) but she bonded him as
warder first (risking alerting Rand that something is not right)? I
think there is a difference between the simple compulsion weave, the
one I think Moghedien uses on Elayne or Nynaeve (I do not remember in
which book) which lasts for a certain amount of time only (and the
subject has to follow the orders that were given while compulsion
weave was aimed at them). Elayne (or was it Nynaeve) are not
permanently bent to Moghedien's will after she left them. The
'permanent compulsion weave' (bend someone to my will permanently -
until they are released from this weave, IF that is possible) needs a
permanent connection to the person that will be complelled/bent, in
order to work. This connection is the warder bond. So the (warder)
bond is needed as a base/scaffolding for the permanent compulsion
weave. That is why Alana first bonded Rand and THEN wanted to place
the 'permanent compulsion weave' on top of the bond. Else, if she
could force the 'permanent compulsion weave'on Rand from scratch that
would be the first thing to do (Alanna's goal is to have the DR under
control. That is the 1st priority. To sense where he is and how
healthy he is, is usefull, but not as important as bending him to her
will. Once she has bent him to her will, she can make him accept the
warder bond as well. The fact that she tried to do it the other way
round means (my interpretation) that the 'permanent compulsion weave'
in order to work needs a warder bond (permanent connection) allready
in place (and then the 'permanent compulsion weave' somehow
changes/manipulates the connection).
Now the weave AM use on AS in Toveine's group, is a 2 in 1 sort of
thing. Warder bond plus 'permanent compulsion' together. When Logain
captured Toveine he did not channel twice. He did it all in one go.
(AM have progressed more than AS in these weaves. Or, it is easier to
do it in one step rather than 2 when using Saidin instead of Saidar).
Note the feeling of warmth/heat by both Rand and Toveine. WH prologue,
Toveine POV :"... and warmth flooded through her. More than warmth.
She was melted honey inside, bubbling honey, rushing toward the boil."
The fact that Rand feels he is in a furnace, compared to Toveine's
boiling honey, means that it is more pleasant when done by (using
saidin rather saidar) a male channeler to a female than vice-versa, or
Logain has mastered this weave to perfection and makes it feel
pleasant, or these pleasant feelings are due to the combined
bond/compulsion weave rather than only bonding weave. And it is
one/off sort of thing with permanet effects (compared to Moghedien's
simple compulsion weave). Logain does not need new compulsion weaves
to refresh his orders or give new ones. TPOD,ch 26, the extra bit]
Logain to Toveine:"Don't try to escape, don't attack anyone in a black
coat, and don't touch the source unless I give you permission." While
he gives these instructions he is not channelling, and neither does he
need to remind Toveine (with a fresh compulsion weave) after a few
hours or days. She only needs to tell her once. In a few days he can
give another order/ instruction (without an accompanying compulsion
weave) and Toveine will have to obey that as well. Toveine has no
desire to do something that Logain will not like/approve. It is a
permanent thing and not what Moghedien did.
> It's also possible that Merise convinced Jahar to do it for some other
> reason; women have been making men do things they didn't want to for
> thousands of years *without* the Power or bonds, after all. ;)
Yes, I think Merise, Corele and Daigian _convinced_ Jahar, Damer and
Eben (I am not sure I have got all the names correct) to become
warders, and they used the normal warder bond on them (NO COMPULSION).
But I think it is a bad bargain/deal for the AM. Why should they let
the AS have the upper hand in their relationship (ie AS give
orders/instructions and AM obey/follow them)? They can channel, so
that puts them on an equal footing with AS. Why should the AS give the
orders in the AS/warder team and not the AM? Since they can both
channel this should be a relationship between equals (rather than the
usual AS/warder relationship). ie do the warder bond thing, but no one
agrees to obey the other. They should decide/agree on what to do
together, as equals. Maybe the AM felt left out, lonely, and thought
what the hell I might as well become a warder. The rest of AS &
Warders will view a AM/warder with more sympathy/friendship rather
than a plain AM. Maybe the AM only agreed to the warder bonding, and
being called 'warders' but have not agreed/ swore to obey the AS.
Since their common goal is to help Rand reach and win the last battle,
they would probably agree on most things, but their might be minor
disagreements/ arguments between AS/AM warder pairs not seen between
AS/usual warders (IF they have not agreed to obey AS). If they have
agreed to let AS order them about, they are fools (they will have much
to gain by observing how sea folk bargain).
Kutulu
>eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means) wrote in message news:<9660c87e.03020...@posting.google.com>...
>> daniel_...@hotmail.com (Daniel Giblett) wrote in message news:<ab6e9530.03020...@posting.google.com>...
>> > I had always thought that when an AS and and Asha'man bonded, the
>> > Asha'man was impervious to the compulsion that the AS could normally
>> > impose on the Warder. For example:
>>
>> ISTR that someone who is holding the Power is immune to Compulsion.
>> It seems likely that an AS's ability to impose her will on her Warder
>> is a form of Compulsion (all AS protestations against that particular
>> Talent aside).
>>
>
>Why do you think that AS use compulsion on their Warders? That is not
>my impression at all. A candidate for a Warder position has to agree
>(of his own free will) to take up Warder duties (eg. I think Moiraine
>and Lan discuss it and Lan agrees, at the end of NS). That is why you
>should never bond someone against their will. It is unethical to force
Part of the agreement between AS & Warder is the understanding that
the AS can compel (lower-case, at least) the Warder to do something he
may not want.
You don't need *any* better evidence than Lan: After Moraine died, you
know the only thing he _wanted_ to do was run off to the Blight and
kill him some Trolloc. What he _actually_ did was go find the other
AS, which he was compelled to do because of the bond. He had no
choice in the matter: he could not make himself act against the bond.
Having said that, it's obvious that malicious Compulsion is seen as
something akin to rape in Randland (rightly so). This is why the
warder bond must be consensual: the Warder needs to know, understand,
and accept that the AS could compel him to behave in a certain way.
[snip]
>whatsoever. (Compulsion is unethical, plus it is NOT needed. Warders
>obey AS of their own free will).
There's a huge difference between the Warders generally obeying their
AS because they choose to, and the Warders _always_ obeying their AS
even when they _dont_ want to.
>> IIRC when Alanna bonded Rand he seized Saidin immediately; when she
>> tried to Compel him, he was holding the Power and thus immune to it.
>> Had she tried when he was *not* holding the Power things might have
>> been different.
>>
>
>Exactly ! Alanna cought Rand by surprise and forced the warder bond on
>him without his permission/agreement/approval. That weave IS the
>warder bond. (Alana and Rand can sense roughly where the other is, and
>whether they are healthy, injured,sick, in distress etc). Immediately
>after Alana forced the warder bond on Rand, she tried to do something
>extra (NOT DONE to normal warders) compell him, bend him to her will.
It was obviously something Alanna has 1) done before and 2) expected
to work. Note that, as far as we know, no one except the Forsaken
know how to do real Compulsion. Verin knows how to do something
roughly approaching Compulsion, and likely other AS have similar
tricks. But we have no reason to suspect Alanna can Compel people.
She clearly expected the Warder bond she dropped on Rand to do that
for her, and from the way the other AS discussed it, they all expected
the same result.
--K
ioanna
>
> Having said that, it's obvious that malicious Compulsion is seen as
> something akin to rape in Randland (rightly so). This is why the
> warder bond must be consensual: the Warder needs to know, understand,
> and accept that the AS could compel him to behave in a certain way.
>
How can compulsion be non-malicious? All compulsion is malicious. Both
moghedien's which works only as long as she is aiming the complusion
weave to Nyn and Elayne (or she channels to begin with and it lasts
for say half hour before it dissipates. Although I believe it is more
probable she was channeling the whole time) and the permanent
compulsion/bending which works by manipulating/changing the permanent
connection (warder bond) with the person to be compelled (Logain
style).
IF the warder understand and ACCEPTS that AS would compel him in a
certain way, ie. undrestands that there may be occasions where the AS
says "do that" and for whatever reason he does not agree with her
order, but ACEEPTS he would do it ANYWAY (because the AS would compel
him) THEN there is no NEED for compulsion. If he AGREES and ACCEPTS
that he may have to act against his personal wishes, judgement, ethics
or whatever if the AS orders him to do so, then when the occasion
arises he would obey (WITHOUT COMPULSION). He will honor the promise
he gave (he has agreed, accepted, given his consent to become a warder
and follow orders even if he does not agree with them).
IF the warders, as you say, AGREE to be COMPELLED if needed, then it
would not be Compulsion. To Compell is to FORCE you to do what I want.
IF you AGREE to be FORCED / COMPELLED, THEN you are NOT
FORCED/COMPELLED. You may not like my orders but you have
AGREED/ACCEPTED that you will follow my orders, even if you do not
like them. It is is part of the deal. If you do not
accept/agree/consent you do not become a warder. If you do, you become
a warder and there is no need to compell you to do anything. To
agree/consent to Compulsion is a contradiction in terms.
>
> >> IIRC when Alanna bonded Rand he seized Saidin immediately; when she
> >> tried to Compel him, he was holding the Power and thus immune to it.
> >> Had she tried when he was *not* holding the Power things might have
> >> been different.
> >>
> >
> >Exactly ! Alanna cought Rand by surprise and forced the warder bond on
> >him without his permission/agreement/approval. That weave IS the
> >warder bond. (Alana and Rand can sense roughly where the other is, and
> >whether they are healthy, injured,sick, in distress etc). Immediately
> >after Alana forced the warder bond on Rand, she tried to do something
> >extra (NOT DONE to normal warders) compell him, bend him to her will.
>
> It was obviously something Alanna has 1) done before and 2) expected
> to work. Note that, as far as we know, no one except the Forsaken
> know how to do real Compulsion. Verin knows how to do something
> roughly approaching Compulsion, and likely other AS have similar
> tricks. But we have no reason to suspect Alanna can Compel people.
> She clearly expected the Warder bond she dropped on Rand to do that
> for her, and from the way the other AS discussed it, they all expected
> the same result.
>
From the way the AS discussed we (I at least) understand exactly the
opposite of what you are saying. She DID NOT expect the Warder bond to
DO that for her (permanent compuslion-bending to her will).
[loc, ch 49, the mirror of mists] Kiruna: "If you had to
bond a man without asking him, why, by the Light most Holy, have you
not used the bond to bend him to your will?" ...Alanna: "I tried to
compel him moments after I bonded him. .. Have you ever tried to
uproot an oak tree with your bear hands, Kiruna? It was much the
same."
She tried to COMPEL him moments AFTER she BONDED him. She DID NOT
expect the warder bond (on its own) to DO that (compulsion) for her.
Vanessa Karam
news:aa41cda3.0302...@posting.google.com...
> [snip]
[snip malicious compulsion]
[snip exact same argument as below]
> IF the warders, as you say, AGREE to be COMPELLED if needed, then it
> would not be Compulsion. To Compell is to FORCE you to do what I want.
> IF you AGREE to be FORCED / COMPELLED, THEN you are NOT
> FORCED/COMPELLED. You may not like my orders but you have
> AGREED/ACCEPTED that you will follow my orders, even if you do not
> like them. It is is part of the deal. If you do not
> accept/agree/consent you do not become a warder. If you do, you become
> a warder and there is no need to compell you to do anything. To
> agree/consent to Compulsion is a contradiction in terms.
Ok, I understand your logic, and yes, even agree with it--"if you agree
to be forced, then you are not actually being forced", it is by your own
agreement--if you take that statement in a vaccuum. But when put into
practice, there are different implications. Remember how the Seanchan
force people to take oaths to serve the Empress? Well, some people swear,
and will hold to their oath. But for people like Mat, "a forced oath is
no oath" in his eyes. (Ugh, citations....this is after he meets Tuon, I
think, and she asks him if he swore the oaths....somebody can correct me
if that's incorrect, but I know he thought it, if not exactly when.) So
even if the Warder initially agrees that he will do whatever his Aes
Sedai says, because he HAS to agree as a condition of his bond, he may
find that when his AS says "stay here, I'm going ahead alone to face
those DF's with pitchforks," he will disobey her and follow for
protection as the other, more important part of the bond, is to ensure
the safety of his AS. There ya go, he went and disobeyed his AS,
agreement or no agreement. Before you say anything, read the rest of this
post.
>
> >
> > >> IIRC when Alanna bonded Rand he seized Saidin immediately; when
she
> > >> tried to Compel him, he was holding the Power and thus immune to
it.
> > >> Had she tried when he was *not* holding the Power things might
have
> > >> been different.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Exactly ! Alanna cought Rand by surprise and forced the warder bond
on
> > >him without his permission/agreement/approval. That weave IS the
> > >warder bond. (Alana and Rand can sense roughly where the other is,
and
> > >whether they are healthy, injured,sick, in distress etc).
Immediately
> > >after Alana forced the warder bond on Rand, she tried to do
something
> > >extra (NOT DONE to normal warders) compell him, bend him to her
will.
<sigh.> The compelling is not USUALLY done, but it is understood to be
relatively normal, a part of the AS-Warder bond--but this has been said
before.
> >
> > It was obviously something Alanna has 1) done before and 2) expected
> > to work. Note that, as far as we know, no one except the Forsaken
> > know how to do real Compulsion. Verin knows how to do something
> > roughly approaching Compulsion, and likely other AS have similar
> > tricks. But we have no reason to suspect Alanna can Compel people.
> > She clearly expected the Warder bond she dropped on Rand to do that
> > for her, and from the way the other AS discussed it, they all
expected
> > the same result.
> >
Yes.
> From the way the AS discussed we (I at least) understand exactly the
> opposite of what you are saying. She DID NOT expect the Warder bond to
> DO that for her (permanent compuslion-bending to her will).
> [loc, ch 49, the mirror of mists] Kiruna: "If you had to
> bond a man without asking him, why, by the Light most Holy, have you
> not used the bond to bend him to your will?" ...Alanna: "I tried to
> compel him moments after I bonded him. .. Have you ever tried to
> uproot an oak tree with your bear hands, Kiruna? It was much the
> same."
> She tried to COMPEL him moments AFTER she BONDED him. She DID NOT
> expect the warder bond (on its own) to DO that (compulsion) for her.
Look, seeing as how we know that no present-day AS really know how to do
the forbidden Compulsion (Forsaken-style, that is), then it is clear that
Alanna did not try to Compel (capital C) Rand moments after she bonded
him. She tried to compel him with a lower-case c, as in make him more
amenable to her will, when he was still disoriented from the unexpected
bonding. It is hinted at throughout the series (and I am missing some
books, so I can not give you exact quotes--can somebody help me out on
this one?) that the bond placed on the warder leaves him "open to
suggestion" by his Aes Sedai. More specifically, there is some part of
his brain contained by the bond that is now accessibly by his Aes Sedai
and his Aes Sedai only, and all she need do is touch that part of the
bond with a bit of Spirit, I think it is, and suddenly her orders are not
up for discussion. He must obey. It is not quite Compulsion, in the AS
Dictionary sense of the word, it is just part of the bond, the fact that
the AS can make her warder do things he would otherwise disagree to.
Alanna did not expect that fact that she had bonded Rand to make him
obey, but she did expect that because of that bond his brain would be
accepting of her ministrations. That it was not, could be for any of the
reasons discussed in this thread--he was holding saidin, he is taveren,
he is Two Rivers-stubborn, he's just strong in the Power, whatever.
Now, you make the argument that if the warder has agreed to be bonded,
then acceptance is inherent to this decision, and compulsion is not
necessary. This is not so. There are situations where, as I illustrated
above, the warder may disobey direct orders if he believes it is
necessary in order to protect his Aes Sedai. In these cases, the AS may
make use of the compulsion aspect of the bond. The warder may or may not
have known before the bonding that this was part of what he agreed to,
and he may not even know that he is being forced when it happens, as he
has most likely agreed to obey his Aes Sedai and would not find it too
odd that in the end, he finds himself doing her bidding, like it or not.
The one piece of evidence that stands out in my mind as proving that AS
use the bond to force the warder to obey is a conversation between
Moiraine and Lan in TGH when they are at Vandene and Adeleas' house. I do
not have the book to quote, but Encylcopedia WOT provides the following
chapter summary: "Moiraine talks to Lan about bonding him nearly twenty
years ago near Chachin. She goads him about having to obey her and he
angrily responds that she never had to compel him. Moiraine tells him
that she passed his bond to Myrelle back in Tar Valon. It will happen
when she dies. Myrelle promised to pass Lan to one who suits him better.
Lan is even angrier. Nonconsensual passing of a bond has not been done in
four hundred years."
From this we learn a number of things:
1. Moiraine never had to compel Lan to do anything, he just chose to
obey. This clearly implies that she COULD HAVE done so, had he chosen not
to obey.
2. Lan is the one who says this. He therefore is aware that this
compulsion is an aspect of the bond.
3. Lan is pissed that his bond will be passed to Myrelle upon Moiraine's
death. This implies that he has no choice in the matter, it will happen,
or else he wouldn't care.
4. This passing of the bond is NONCONSENSUAL. Lan has not agreed to it.
But it will happen anyway, and he will be compelled to find Myrelle when
Moiraine dies (as we saw happen at the end of tFoH--Lan says "she is
gone," says some parting words to Rand, and rides off to find Myrelle.)
I don't know how much more evidence you want, but it's clear that AS can
compel their warders as a part of their bond.
Vanessa
Kutulu
>[snip]
>>
>> Having said that, it's obvious that malicious Compulsion is seen as
>> something akin to rape in Randland (rightly so). This is why the
>> warder bond must be consensual: the Warder needs to know, understand,
>> and accept that the AS could compel him to behave in a certain way.
>>
>How can compulsion be non-malicious? All compulsion is malicious. Both
>moghedien's which works only as long as she is aiming the complusion
>weave to Nyn and Elayne (or she channels to begin with and it lasts
>for say half hour before it dissipates. Although I believe it is more
>probable she was channeling the whole time) and the permanent
>compulsion/bending which works by manipulating/changing the permanent
>connection (warder bond) with the person to be compelled (Logain
>style).
All Comuplsion is not "malicious by definition". Compulsion is a
Talent, a use of the One Power. It, by itself, is neither good nor
evil. It becomes malcious only by the intent of the person using it.
By its nature, Compulsion is the kind of thing that's typically used
in a malicious way, but that's because of the person using it, not the
Talent itself.
e.g., if you tried to convince someone that 10000 Trollocs were about
to swarm all over their inn, they didn't beleive you because they
thought Trollocs were fairy tales, and you Compelled them to run like
a madman until they were safe and sound and alive... is that
malicious?
[snip]
>IF the warders, as you say, AGREE to be COMPELLED if needed, then it
>would not be Compulsion. To Compell is to FORCE you to do what I want.
>IF you AGREE to be FORCED / COMPELLED, THEN you are NOT
>FORCED/COMPELLED. You may not like my orders but you have
>AGREED/ACCEPTED that you will follow my orders, even if you do not
>like them. It is is part of the deal. If you do not
>accept/agree/consent you do not become a warder. If you do, you become
>a warder and there is no need to compell you to do anything. To
>agree/consent to Compulsion is a contradiction in terms.
I totally disagree. Again, Compulsion (capital letter) is a Talent, a
specific targeted activity that certain people can perform on others.
It's not a contradiction at all to say "I consent, here and now, to
allow you, at any time in the future, to use the Talent of Compulsion
on me when you feel it is neccessary."
The differnece is *when* the consent is given. Yes, I agree, if I
agree to do something you ask when you ask it, there's no need for
compel me to do it (though, using the lower-case, standard definition
of the world compel, even a simple reminder of your oath would be
"compelling" you to act a certain way.) The problem occurs when the
consent to act a certain way was 25 years ago, and _right now_ you
don't want me to do something I fully intend to do. To presume that
the Warder, when he gets bonded, can know every single situation that
will ever arise, and how he will deal with it, is unreasonable.
For example, the Warders don't just swear to obey their AS, they also
swear to protect their life at all costs. What happens when those two
things come in direct conflict? Presumably some Warders, like Lan,
would be so well-behaved that Compulsion is not neccessary. Indeed,
we don't usually get any indication that Moraine ever had to use the
bond to Compel Lan to do anything.
Others might not be so amenable to letting their AS run headlong into
a Forsaken, and may need to be Compelled, via the bond, to adhere to
their oaths. As strongly as Randlanders seem to take their oaths,
remember that they're all just people. It is sometimes still
neccessary to _force_ them to adhere to their oaths (for example, the
Oath Rod does just that).
And how do u think she tried to compel him? Note: I'm not saying its
_automatic_. I am saying its _part of the bond_. Obviously the bond
does not automatically turn the Warder into a zombie being controlled
by the whim of the AS. But it does provide the AS the means to compel
their Warder, to at least some degree, when she feels it neccessary.
As far as the except: RJ has always been _very_ consistant with his
use of proper nouns for Talents. Thus, Alanna didn't use Compulsion,
the Talent, by itself, on Rand. (I doubt she even would know how).
She tried to compel him some other way. That other way, in the
context of Kiruna's statement, is quite obviously through the Warder
bond. Both Alanna and Kiruna clearly assume that the bond can be used
for this type of thing, and Kiruna seems to think its not even as
"wrong" as the bonding against his will. You skipped a _lot_ there,
including: "Compared to the other, that is only slapping his wrist".
And Alanna replying "Has no one told you? ... I suppose no one wants
to think of it. I certainly do not." So, the exchange is
essentially:
Kiruna: You bonded him against his will. That's very evil Alanna.
But if you were willing to that, then you should undoubtably be
willing to use the bond to compel him. That's nowhere near as bad as
bonding him against his will.
Alanna: I tried. As soon as I bonded him I tried to use the bond to
compel him. It did not work. I don't even want to think why
something we all expected to work did not, and I don't think any of
the others do either.
Subsqeunt comments from Alanna, re: "No one has ever bonded a man who
can channel", clearly indicates that they are discussion the bond
here, not some post-bonding attempt to use Compulsion.
I assume this is one of the main reasons that bonding someone against
their will is seen as such a horrible thing. Once the bond is there,
the AS has the ability to use it to the same effect as the talent of
Compulsion. If the Warder did not _explicity consent_ to such a bond
being put on him, it's no better than using Compulsion itself. Using
the bond to compel the Warder is seen as more of a "very rarely
neccessary evil", eg, it's not something that _should_ be used, but if
it is, at least the Warder knew what he was getting into when he
bonded.
--K
Kutulu
<Papil...@optonline.net> wrote:
>1. Moiraine never had to compel Lan to do anything, he just chose to
>obey. This clearly implies that she COULD HAVE done so, had he chosen not
>to obey.
>2. Lan is the one who says this. He therefore is aware that this
>compulsion is an aspect of the bond.
>3. Lan is pissed that his bond will be passed to Myrelle upon Moiraine's
>death. This implies that he has no choice in the matter, it will happen,
>or else he wouldn't care.
>4. This passing of the bond is NONCONSENSUAL. Lan has not agreed to it.
>But it will happen anyway, and he will be compelled to find Myrelle when
>Moiraine dies (as we saw happen at the end of tFoH--Lan says "she is
>gone," says some parting words to Rand, and rides off to find Myrelle.)
(piggybacking here cuz I agree with you :) )
Here's the key citation to back up your point:
-----------------------------------------------
_The Great Hunt_, Chapter 22, beginning on page 284.
[Moraine speaking]: "When you feel my death, you will find yoursefl
compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be
surprised by it."
"Compelled" he breathed softly, angrily. "Never once have you used my
bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that."
"Had I left this thing undone, you would be free of the bond at my
death, and not even my strongest command to you would hold. I will
not allow you to die in a useless attempt to avenge me. And I will
not allow you to return to your equally useless private way in the
Blight."
------------------------------------------------
Note, first, that Moraine and Lan both explicitly use the word
'compel', and that Moraine expects this compulsion to override Lan's
two strongest personal desires: to avenge Moraine's death and to
avenge his family's death. She also notes that, without the bond,
there's no way she could keep Lan from disobeying her commands if he
wanted to do so badly enough
.
And, ever importantly is just how outraged Lan is at this passing of
his bond. Moraine tells him flat out that the bond was passed to
Myrelle to prevent Lan from running off into the Blight. He didn't
even know about it, and certainly _never swore an oath_ to obey
Myrelle. But he will obey her (and he does, we see later). The bond
gives Myrelle that ability: to make Lan obey her despite everything
else.
--K
Jared Parsons
> And, ever importantly is just how outraged Lan is at this passing of
> his bond. Moraine tells him flat out that the bond was passed to
> Myrelle to prevent Lan from running off into the Blight. He didn't
> even know about it, and certainly _never swore an oath_ to obey
> Myrelle. But he will obey her (and he does, we see later). The bond
> gives Myrelle that ability: to make Lan obey her despite everything
> else.
However this "compelling" only goes so far. Myrelle, for instance,
cannot order Lan to stop grieving (or whatever you call it) over the
death of Moiraine. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a big deal with a
Warder's AS died.
--
Jared Parsons
CS2130 STA
(jpar...@jparsons.org)
Eric Means
> "ioanna" <ioa...@wotmania.com> wrote in message
> news:aa41cda3.0302...@posting.google.com...
> > [snip]
>
To summarize:
The bond *does* allow the AS to force her will on the Warder; his
"prior assent" is completely irrelevant to this. Lan may have
consented to serve Moi in all ways as her Warder, but he most
obviously did not consent to having his bond passed. Nonetheless he
was forced -- very obviously against his will -- to go to Myrelle
immediately. He could not even tarry long enough to say proper
goodbyes or to accompany Rand to Caemlyn -- he *had* to go, and he had
to go *immediately*. Neither of these would be true if there were not
some sort of Power-induced compulsion (big OR little C).
Actually (semi-loony), I think it *is* Compulsion, or at least very
closely related. I'm not sure if we've "seen" exactly what goes into
a Compulsion weave, but I expect it's primarily (or even entirely)
Spirit. The fact that the AS don't "think" of it as Compulsion has
little or no bearing on whether it actually is. They don't know what
the actual Compulsion weave is, so how could they possibly make any
real determination of how close their little Spirit trick is to the
real thing? Also note the AS' oft-noted extraordinary skill at
ignoring inconvenient realities and moral difficulties.
If the weaves for the bond-compulsion and Compulsion are similar or
identical, then I would expect defenses to also be similar. Holding
the Power defeats the latter, so I see no reason it would not also
defeat the former.
Jess
More specifically, there is some part of
> > his brain contained by the bond that is now accessibly by his Aes Sedai
> > and his Aes Sedai only, and all she need do is touch that part of the
> > bond with a bit of Spirit, I think it is, and suddenly her orders are not
> > up for discussion. He must obey. It is not quite Compulsion, in the AS
> > Dictionary sense of the word, it is just part of the bond,
i remember a mention of this, but it was simple suggestion and again,
discourages. It was to be used in only very serious circumstances,
which bonding the DR certainly is.
jess
Cyrus Levesque
> Actually (semi-loony), I think it *is* Compulsion, or at least very
> closely related. I'm not sure if we've "seen" exactly what goes into
> a Compulsion weave, but I expect it's primarily (or even entirely)
> Spirit. The fact that the AS don't "think" of it as Compulsion has
> little or no bearing on whether it actually is. They don't know what
> the actual Compulsion weave is, so how could they possibly make any
> real determination of how close their little Spirit trick is to the
> real thing? Also note the AS' oft-noted extraordinary skill at
> ignoring inconvenient realities and moral difficulties.
>
> If the weaves for the bond-compulsion and Compulsion are similar or
> identical, then I would expect defenses to also be similar. Holding
> the Power defeats the latter, so I see no reason it would not also
> defeat the former.
Well, the weaves for the compulsion through the bond and Compulsion
(capital C) might be similar, but they definitely are not the same. If
they were, then Verin wouldn't worked so hard studying novice tricks
and researching old books to figure out her feeble, halfway version of
Compulsion (Intro to tPoD). If the way AS controlled Warders was too
much like the Compulsion weave, it would never have been forgotten,
since everyone would use it on their Warders.
Also, earlier in this thread someone quoted Lan as complaining about
Moiraine "compelling" him. (I'd be more specific and cite it myself,
but my books aren't here.) But just because a Warder used the word
"compel", doesn't mean that what AS do to Warders is the same as the
forbidden weave the Forsaken use. Something Lan called "compelling"
doesn't necessarily mean "Compelling". When Rand and Mat travelled
from the Two Rivers to Caemlyn in tEotW, they didn't Travel.
Eric Means
> eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means) wrote in message
> > [snip]
> > Actually (semi-loony), I think it *is* Compulsion, or at least very
> > closely related. I'm not sure if we've "seen" exactly what goes into
> > a Compulsion weave, but I expect it's primarily (or even entirely)
> > Spirit. The fact that the AS don't "think" of it as Compulsion has
> > little or no bearing on whether it actually is. They don't know what
> > the actual Compulsion weave is, so how could they possibly make any
> > real determination of how close their little Spirit trick is to the
> > real thing? Also note the AS' oft-noted extraordinary skill at
> > ignoring inconvenient realities and moral difficulties.
> >
> > If the weaves for the bond-compulsion and Compulsion are similar or
> > identical, then I would expect defenses to also be similar. Holding
> > the Power defeats the latter, so I see no reason it would not also
> > defeat the former.
>
> Well, the weaves for the compulsion through the bond and Compulsion
> (capital C) might be similar, but they definitely are not the same. If
> they were, then Verin wouldn't worked so hard studying novice tricks
> and researching old books to figure out her feeble, halfway version of
> Compulsion (Intro to tPoD). If the way AS controlled Warders was too
> much like the Compulsion weave, it would never have been forgotten,
> since everyone would use it on their Warders.
Except that the weaves for Compulsion and the weaves for bonding a
Warder were never known at the same time. The AS may have forgotten
how to Compulse (because they banned it), then discovered how to bond
warders, and with that rediscovered Compulsion. Because noone knew
what Compulsion looked like, they didn't realize that they had
rediscovered it; they assumed that it was different, because Of Course
no AS would do something as reprehensible as rediscover Compulsion.
There is no AS in any position to make a real comparison; the only AS
with any first-hand experience of Compulsion (Nyn and maybe some of
the other Wundergirls) don't, to the best of my knowledge, know
anything about bond-compulsion.
> Also, earlier in this thread someone quoted Lan as complaining about
> Moiraine "compelling" him. (I'd be more specific and cite it myself,
> but my books aren't here.) But just because a Warder used the word
> "compel", doesn't mean that what AS do to Warders is the same as the
> forbidden weave the Forsaken use. Something Lan called "compelling"
> doesn't necessarily mean "Compelling". When Rand and Mat travelled
> from the Two Rivers to Caemlyn in tEotW, they didn't Travel.
The fact that the words used are the same is, I agree, not really
supporting evidence. On the other hand, it's hardly contradictory
evidence either. I don't recall relying on Lan's word choice as a
major point, however; the interest was in his description of his
actions as completely forced.
To put it quite simply, here are the major arguments for:
1. bond-compelling uses Spirit. Compulsion is (probably; citations
for/against welcome) largely or entirely Spirit.
2. Holding the Power is considered -- by an AoL-trained channeler who
should know -- to be protective against Compulsion. Rand cannot be
bond-compelled; the only time it was tried (that we know of) he was
holding the Power.
3. bond-compulsion is clearly capable of forcing someone to do
something they *very strongly* do not want to do, in such a way that
they may not even be aware of being forced (see prev. messages in the
thread). Obviously Compulsion can have the same effect.
Anyone who wants to argue that Compulsion and bond-compulsion are
different needs to show some text-supported qualitative difference,
not just "they definitely are not the same". Simply "taking the AS'
word for it" that bond-compulsion is not the real thing is rather
unconvincing given their extreme ignorance and arrogance.
Also, in regards to a previous message noting that Myrelle cannot
bond-compel Lan to forget his grief/anger over Moi's death. Actually,
she probably can. She never considers it because it smacks too much
of "real" Compulsion, not because it's not possible.
Kutulu
wrote:
>"Vanessa Karam" <Papil...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<pHe1a.187171$HG.31...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
>> "ioanna" <ioa...@wotmania.com> wrote in message
>> news:aa41cda3.0302...@posting.google.com...
>> > [snip]
>>
>
>To summarize:
>The bond *does* allow the AS to force her will on the Warder; his
>"prior assent" is completely irrelevant to this. Lan may have
True. Not relevant to the function of the bond. It is, however,
quite important to the _morality_ of the bond. And that's mostly
because of the compulsion facet: it's immoral to bond someone w/out
their content because it gives you this compulsive power over them.
Of course, as you note below, AS are pretty handy at ignoring morality
when it becomes convenient :)
[snip]
>Actually (semi-loony), I think it *is* Compulsion, or at least very
>closely related. I'm not sure if we've "seen" exactly what goes into
>a Compulsion weave, but I expect it's primarily (or even entirely)
>Spirit. The fact that the AS don't "think" of it as Compulsion has
>little or no bearing on whether it actually is. They don't know what
>the actual Compulsion weave is, so how could they possibly make any
>real determination of how close their little Spirit trick is to the
>real thing? Also note the AS' oft-noted extraordinary skill at
>ignoring inconvenient realities and moral difficulties.
>
>If the weaves for the bond-compulsion and Compulsion are similar or
>identical, then I would expect defenses to also be similar. Holding
>the Power defeats the latter, so I see no reason it would not also
>defeat the former.
I don't think it qualifies as what we see as Compulsion from the likes
of Liandrin or the Forsaken. (Aside: Is Liandrin's compulsion the
real thing? We know that Verin's isn't quite potent enough to be
Compulsion, just "a trick not unlike Compulsion", but I don't remember
enough of Liandrins' version...)
The major factor here seems to be the Warders awareness of being
compelled. At least, I never saw any evidence of the Warders looking
around going "how the f@#$ did I get here?" or "what the hell was I
doing?" This effect seems prevelant whenever people under real
Compulsion snap out of it, eg. Morgases after Rhavin dies, Juilian
when Liandrin Compels him, etc. However, I agree that its, in the
very least, some watered down version. Perhaps in the same way
Healing can be watered down into that "nice refreshing nap" effect.
--K
Kutulu
wrote:
>cybis...@hotmail.com (Cyrus Levesque) wrote in message news:<f6f6a77b.03020...@posting.google.com>...
>
>> Also, earlier in this thread someone quoted Lan as complaining about
>> Moiraine "compelling" him. (I'd be more specific and cite it myself,
>> but my books aren't here.) But just because a Warder used the word
>> "compel", doesn't mean that what AS do to Warders is the same as the
>> forbidden weave the Forsaken use. Something Lan called "compelling"
>> doesn't necessarily mean "Compelling". When Rand and Mat travelled
>> from the Two Rivers to Caemlyn in tEotW, they didn't Travel.
(I made that argument, btw... see below).
>The fact that the words used are the same is, I agree, not really
>supporting evidence. On the other hand, it's hardly contradictory
>evidence either. I don't recall relying on Lan's word choice as a
>major point, however; the interest was in his description of his
>actions as completely forced.
The argument I made was not attempting to prove that "compel me" =
"use Compulsion." The previous poster was arguing that being a Warder
meant to did everything your AS ask becase _you wanted to_. Thus, the
argument was being made that there was NO Compulsion-like tinge to the
Warder bond because the Warders did everything voluntarily, so
Compulsion wasn't ever needed. However, Lan's use of the word
"compel" clearly means "making me do something I don't want to do", so
there's _something_ in the bond that has that effect. I think the
rest of the stuff you've listed is good evidence that it's akin to
Compulsion, but whatever it is, it's certainly there.
--K
Eric Means
> On 10 Feb 2003 08:26:51 -0800, eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means)
> wrote:
>
> >cybis...@hotmail.com (Cyrus Levesque) wrote in message news:<f6f6a77b.03020...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> >supporting evidence. On the other hand, it's hardly contradictory
> >evidence either. I don't recall relying on Lan's word choice as a
> >major point, however; the interest was in his description of his
> >actions as completely forced.
>
> The argument I made was not attempting to prove that "compel me" =
> "use Compulsion." The previous poster was arguing that being a Warder
> meant to did everything your AS ask becase _you wanted to_. Thus, the
> argument was being made that there was NO Compulsion-like tinge to the
> Warder bond because the Warders did everything voluntarily, so
> Compulsion wasn't ever needed. However, Lan's use of the word
> "compel" clearly means "making me do something I don't want to do", so
> there's _something_ in the bond that has that effect. I think the
> rest of the stuff you've listed is good evidence that it's akin to
> Compulsion, but whatever it is, it's certainly there.
Which is what I was trying to get at in what you've quoted above. ;)
Eric Means
> On 9 Feb 2003 14:27:43 -0800, eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means)
> wrote:
>
> >"Vanessa Karam" <Papil...@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<pHe1a.187171$HG.31...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> >> "ioanna" <ioa...@wotmania.com> wrote in message
> >> news:aa41cda3.0302...@posting.google.com...
> >closely related. I'm not sure if we've "seen" exactly what goes into
> >a Compulsion weave, but I expect it's primarily (or even entirely)
> >Spirit. The fact that the AS don't "think" of it as Compulsion has
> >little or no bearing on whether it actually is. They don't know what
> >the actual Compulsion weave is, so how could they possibly make any
> >real determination of how close their little Spirit trick is to the
> >real thing? Also note the AS' oft-noted extraordinary skill at
> >ignoring inconvenient realities and moral difficulties.
>
> real thing? We know that Verin's isn't quite potent enough to be
> Compulsion, just "a trick not unlike Compulsion", but I don't remember
> enough of Liandrins' version...)
Yeah, I can't recall that clearly either. A cite would be great here;
maybe I'll look it up tonight if I remember.
> I don't think it qualifies as what we see as Compulsion from the likes
> of Liandrin or the Forsaken.
> The major factor here seems to be the Warders awareness of being
> compelled. At least, I never saw any evidence of the Warders looking
> around going "how the f@#$ did I get here?" or "what the hell was I
> doing?" This effect seems prevelant whenever people under real
> Compulsion snap out of it, eg. Morgases after Rhavin dies, Juilian
> when Liandrin Compels him, etc.
I don't think that's a real difference in the weaves, though. If a
Warder is aware he's being compelled, what is he going to do? He
swore to obey his AS anyway. OTOH if you're Compelling someone like
Morgase into being your love-slave and giving you all her hard-won
power, it's a hell of a lot easier and safer for you if she thinks
she's doing it under her own will. Compelling her to *believe*
certain things is more efficient than controlling what she *does*
every second of every day -- if you only control her actions, if you
don't pay close enough attention she may slip your control long enough
to say something to someone or do something about it. OTOH if she has
to contend with the belief that it was all her own idea she's much
less likely to (say) rally the Guards and have your head chopped off,
even if your control slips for a bit. (Recall, for instance, what
happened when Morgase "woke up" and confronted Rahvin -- she didn't
immediately send for trusted guards, or an AS circle of 13... but she
would have if she'd known exactly what was going on and was only being
physically controlled.)
Like I said, I think Myrelle *could* compel Lan to forget his grief
(at least for a while; there's that whole stubborn thing), but never
considers it because AS think they know everything about the bond and
because that would be too obviously forbidden Compulsion.
> However, I agree that its, in the
> very least, some watered down version. Perhaps in the same way
> Healing can be watered down into that "nice refreshing nap" effect.
Definitely related. Cruder, definitely, but probably (IMO) the same
thing. It would not surprise me that no sister had ever thought to
try the same weaves on a non-Warder because "things don't work that
way". I bet if they did try the same weaves they would work (or work
with a very little tweaking).
Mitchell Swan
> > real thing? We know that Verin's isn't quite potent enough to be
> > Compulsion, just "a trick not unlike Compulsion", but I don't remember
> > enough of Liandrins' version...)
>
> Yeah, I can't recall that clearly either. A cite would be great here;
> maybe I'll look it up tonight if I remember.
>
Th Great Hunt, Chap 5, "The Shadow in Sheinar"
"No!" As if some invisible support had vanished, Amalisa fell to her
knees, and her head dropped. "Please, Liandrin Sedai, say you do not
mean Agelmar. It cannot be him."
In that moment of doubt and confusion, Liandrin struck. She did not
move, but lashed out with the One Power. Amalisa gasped and gave a
jerk, as if she had been pricked with a needle, and Liandrin's
petulant mouth perked in a smile.
This was her own special trick from childhood, the first learned of
her abilities. It had been forbidden to her as soon as the Mistress of
Novices discovered it, but to Liandrin that only meant one more thing
she needed to conceal from those who were jealous of her.
...
It was not a perfect ability; Liandrin could not force anyone to do
what she wanted-though she had tried; oh, how she had tried. But she
could open them wide to her arguments, make them want to believe her,
want more than anything to be convinced of her rightness.
and...
The Shadow Rising, Chap. 38 "Hidden Faces"
Liandrin ghosted through the halls, easily avoiding servants and
Whitecloaks. When she stepped out of a small back door into a narrow
alley behind the palace, the tall young guard there stared at her with
a blend of relief and unease. Her little trick of opening someone to
her suggestions-just a whip-crack trickle of the Power-had not been
needed with Carridin, but it had easily convinced this fool that she
should be allowed in.
I couldn't find the instance where I thought she talked about making
her father buy her things or make guys want to kiss her. Maybe I'm
mistaken about those.
--
Mitch
Jared Parsons
> Like I said, I think Myrelle *could* compel Lan to forget his grief
> (at least for a while; there's that whole stubborn thing), but never
> considers it because AS think they know everything about the bond and
> because that would be too obviously forbidden Compulsion.
If a Warder's grief could be ended as easily as compelling them to stop
thinking about it, then why does almost every single warder die when
their AS dies?
Dpoc Vyper
JustT...@aol.com (Jess) writes:
>Why did Logain kiss to seal the bond? I think it's because he needed
>to distract the AS. Remember when Verin was compulsing the AS
>captives she had to get them off balance - what could possibly set a
>Red more off balance than a man suddenly kissing her?? The "heat" she
>felt was the Compulsion web setting itself onto her.
>
>jess
>back from vacation
Alana compelled Rand in much the same way.. just kind of snuck up on him and
laid the smack down with the bonding...
Someone mentioned in COT that the Form of bonding that the Asha'man use is much
closer to actual compulsion than the Warder bond. .
And yes, Cumpulsed and Compulsing bothers me too... Compulsion being a tense
of compel, compelling, compelled.. but it's not that big a deal.
Indigo Wombat
> Definitely related. Cruder, definitely, but probably (IMO) the same
> thing. It would not surprise me that no sister had ever thought to
> try the same weaves on a non-Warder because "things don't work that
> way". I bet if they did try the same weaves they would work (or work
> with a very little tweaking).
I don't think that a sister's ability to compel her Warder is a seperate
weave; I think it's just a property of the bond, that they can use to
control them. It's not usually done, but the ability to control actions
(not thoughts or feelings) is inherent in the bond. I think whenever a
sister wants to (which is rarely), she can issue a command through the bond
that doesn't require a separate weave, or even holding the One Power, any
more than sisters need a weave to know where their Warder is or what he's
feeling. It's just a built-in ability of the bond. Which is not to say
that the Warder is always under the Aes Sedai's control by that bond, but he
could be, whenever the whim struck her. It's just not something that's done
by most sisters these days, except under extreme circumstances, because it's
seen as inhumane.
--
The Indigo Wombat
Marsupial of Might
Marian Try Slaughter
<jpar...@gehennom.net> wrote:
>Eric Means <eric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Like I said, I think Myrelle *could* compel Lan to forget his grief
>> (at least for a while; there's that whole stubborn thing), but never
>> considers it because AS think they know everything about the bond and
>> because that would be too obviously forbidden Compulsion.
>
>If a Warder's grief could be ended as easily as compelling them to stop
>thinking about it, then why does almost every single warder die when
>their AS dies?
A few reasons:
First and foremost, because most warders (ie all, really) don't have their
bonds passed on to another Aes Sedai after death. Recall how shocked Lan is
when Moirane tells him about this. Therefore, there is no Aes Sedai to
actually compel the warder to forget the grief.
Secondly, Part of this discussion is that the Aes Sedai may just never have
thought of something so simple that could solve the problem.
"cultures that can identify taupe are just pretentious."
Simon - mhm27x5
Peter Reid
>
> If the weaves for the bond-compulsion and Compulsion are similar or
> identical, then I would expect defenses to also be similar. Holding
> the Power defeats the latter, so I see no reason it would not also
> defeat the former.
The defense against Compulsion also appears to be holding the Power.
That is, during one of Sammael's meetings with Graendal, he specifically
thinks to himself that she can't Compel him because he is holding the
Power. I don't have a cite handy, but I can look it up if you like.
This may or may not link the warder-bond compulsion with big-C
Compulsion; all we know is that they both compel a person to do
something, and both appear to be defended by the target holding the
Power. But correlation is not proof.
--
Peter Reid
peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca
Deflection
> Logain were falling in love, which to an AS would be about like falling
> in love with Charles Manson. Or Saddam Hussein. The "devastating" effects
> seem to indicate an intimacy that makes Aes Sedai serenity
> impossible--maybe Gabrelle and the bonded AS even find themselves willing
> to give up being AS in order to be with their Asha'man? Could that be it?
> I feel like I have a general understanding of the sexual nature of the
> Asha'man "wife-bonding," but it sounds more insidious than I am
> imagining. Gabrelle hints at "many" surprises and "a few" pitfalls, plus
> the "worst-of-all" trap. Any ideas?
I pretty much agree with your assessment about the "trap". I think it
only only sounds more insidious because it is written from the POV of
a character that does not particularly respect people, let alone men
who can channel. Caring about a man who can channel may well be a
worst-of-all trap to her. Escaping her captivity is still a possiblity
but can she escape her heart? Having a persons feelings in your head
all the time could well bring you closer. We see that Rand talks about
missing Alanna despite being forcibly bonded(bound?) and unable to be
compelled.
Kutulu
<peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca> wrote:
>Eric Means wrote:
>>
>> If the weaves for the bond-compulsion and Compulsion are similar or
>> identical, then I would expect defenses to also be similar. Holding
>> the Power defeats the latter, so I see no reason it would not also
>> defeat the former.
>
>The defense against Compulsion also appears to be holding the Power.
>That is, during one of Sammael's meetings with Graendal, he specifically
>thinks to himself that she can't Compel him because he is holding the
>Power. I don't have a cite handy, but I can look it up if you like.
Up until this morning I agreed wholly with you. Then I read something
I'd forgotten about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
_The Shadow Rising_, Chapter 46, "Veils", Page 524:
"Elayne embraced the True Source before she thought of it, and felt
a shudder of releif that she could, that she had not been shielded
unaware.
[...]
The woman who stepped into the Chamber of Falling Blossoms, in a
shimmering black silk down of unfamiliar cut, was no one Elayne had
ever seen before, and surely not on the list of the women who had gone
with Liandrin. Dark hair spilling loose to her shoulders framed a
sturdily handsome face with large, dark eyes and smooth cheeks, but
not with Aes Sedai agelessness. Smiling, she closed the door behind
her. "Forgive me, but I thought you were--" The glow of _saidir_
surrounded her, and she . . . .
Elayne released the True Source. There was something very
commanding in those dark eyes, in the halo around her, the pale
radiance of the One Power.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is Moggy checking up on the girls in Tanchio. Note that Elayne
does grab the True Source and hold it. It does not appear to have any
effect on Moggy's Compulsion (she later names it: "A pity compulsion
is so limited", though it's not a Proper Noun here if that's
significant). In fact, there's a strong implication that Moggy
actuall Compelled Elayne to release the True Source.
Which leads me back to something I mentioned earlier. I don't think
it's simply the act of holding the Source that immunizes one from
Compulsion. Rather, it appears to be a matter of strength. Note
that, as strong as Elayne is, she's nowhere near as strong as Nynaeve
(Nyn is like a "bonfire to Elayne's candle), and Nyn is usually
decribed as being a best even with the Forsaken women. We can then
assume Moggy is much stronger than Elayne. Nyn was *not* holding the
Source at the time, which is explicitly pointed out, so we don't know
what would have happened there.
Rand, on the other hand, is stronger than any living human being, and
obviously *far* stronger than Alanna. Thus, trying to Compel him
while he was holding _saidin_ would be like, well, trying to uproot a
tree.
I don't know the relative strength of Logain or any of the Asha'man
offhand, but I suspect Logain, at least, is pretty strong himself.
Which leads me to another question: Is the bond bi-directional? Does
it matter which person laid the bond on which other person, or could
Rand (if he knew) Bond-Compel Alanna?
--K
Marian Try Slaughter
>I don't know the relative strength of Logain or any of the Asha'man
>offhand, but I suspect Logain, at least, is pretty strong himself.
I'm under the impression that Logain is a strong (or very nearly) as Rand;
Maybe stronger.
In LoC, Logain is shielded by 6 Aes Sedai, and they say that when he
realizes that they know he can channel again, he tries to break free - they
say that if only 5 had been holding it, he may have.
Rand, on the other hand, is being shielded by 6 Aes Sedai on the road north
from Cairhien - and he can no where near break free each time he tries.
Now, it could be just that those Aes Sedai were much stronger than those
sheilding Logain - but I don't think the difference would be that great.
Eric Means
> Eric Means wrote:
>
> > Definitely related. Cruder, definitely, but probably (IMO) the same
> > thing. It would not surprise me that no sister had ever thought to
> > try the same weaves on a non-Warder because "things don't work that
> > way". I bet if they did try the same weaves they would work (or work
> > with a very little tweaking).
>
> I don't think that a sister's ability to compel her Warder is a seperate
> weave; I think it's just a property of the bond, that they can use to
> control them.
LOC, Chapter 52 (page 652 in my hardback copy):
"'Be quiet,' Myrelle hissed. In a louder voice, she called, 'Come to
me.' The horse did not move. A wolfhound mourning his dead mistress
did not come to a new mistress willingly. Delicately she wove Spirit
and touched the part of him that contained her bond; it had to be
delicate, or he would be aware of it, and only the Creator knew what
sort of explosion might result. 'Come to me.'
This time the horse came forward."
This is the scene where Lan arrives at Myrelle. Obviously she does
have to channel to compel Lan to come closer.
As far as I can tell from ideal seek, Compulsion is never described in
terms of the flows it comprises (at least not by name). If someone
knows of/can find a cite for specific flow descriptions during
Compulsion I'd appreciate it.
Eric Means
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:00:02 -0500, Peter Reid
> <peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >Eric Means wrote:
> >>
> >> If the weaves for the bond-compulsion and Compulsion are similar or
> >> identical, then I would expect defenses to also be similar. Holding
> >> the Power defeats the latter, so I see no reason it would not also
> >> defeat the former.
> >
> >The defense against Compulsion also appears to be holding the Power.
> >That is, during one of Sammael's meetings with Graendal, he specifically
> >thinks to himself that she can't Compel him because he is holding the
> >Power. I don't have a cite handy, but I can look it up if you like.
>
> Up until this morning I agreed wholly with you. Then I read something
> I'd forgotten about.
[snip excellent cite where Elayne appears to be Compelled to release
the Source, obviously while holding it.]
That does present a wrinkle. However, that scene (AFAIK) takes place
before either Rand's bonding or this scene:
(LOC, Chapter 6, page 132 in my hardback):
"She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that
she could wield the weaker forms of it with a great delicacy, twisting
a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss
every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who
ever lived.
[Sammael] let the gateway vanish but held on to saidin; those tricks
did not work on someone wrapped in the Source."
It's unclear what "those tricks" refers to -- all of Compulsion, or
only "the weaker forms of it". This leads us to a couple of
possibilities.
1. Holding the Source is proof only against the more subtle forms of
Compulsion. Obviously what was done to Elayne was very unsubtle.
However, this forces us to assume that whatever Alanna was going to
force Rand to do would have been subtle (which, given her temperament,
is unlikely) -- unless we also assume that bond-compulsion is enough
cruder that merely holding the Power is sufficient defense against it
as well.
2. Holding the Source is proof against all forms of Compulsion, and
Elayne was not (initially) Compelled. Perhaps Moghedien was using
another trick (some form of Illusion) to overawe Elayne to the point
where she released Saidin, then struck with Compulsion.
3. Your idea of strength in the Power being involved. This gives lots
of wiggle room, but doesn't really seem supported by the text IMO.
Sammael says "tricks *did* *not* *work*", not "didn't work if you were
strong enough".
4. Author error. Jordan came up with the defense against Compulsion
after that first (Elayne) incident, and didn't realize he'd already
torpedoed himself. He does that on occasion. :)
5. Some combination of the above. For instance, RJ may have *meant*
for Elayne to have been Shielded, *then* Compelled rather than just
Compelled, and forgotten to put it in. Or some such.
Personally I'm leaning towards 1 at this point. I'm kind of in the
position of imagining bond-compulsion as a cruder, primitive
Compulsion; not so powerful, and you need to have a prior hold on the
person for it to work. Thus merely holding the Power defeats both
that and some subtle Compulsion tricks. However, a full-on hammerblow
Compulsion attack would need to be fought by other means (much like a
shielding attempt).
It's entirely possible that a channeler's strength changes what is
considered "subtle" or "primitive" for them by degrees, etc.
> Which leads me to another question: Is the bond bi-directional? Does
> it matter which person laid the bond on which other person, or could
> Rand (if he knew) Bond-Compel Alanna?
Myrelle just has to touch the part of her warder containing her bond
with Spirit. If there is a corresponding part of her, then I would
assume bond-compulsion works in both ways; otherwise, Rand would have
to bond Alanna first.
Indigo Wombat
Thanks for the cite! Learn something new every day....
Indigo Wombat
6. Holding saidin protects against Compulsion, but holding saidar does not.
I thought this was the commonly accepted interpretation around these
parts...?
Mitchell Swan
> > >
> > As far as I can tell from ideal seek, Compulsion is never described in
> > terms of the flows it comprises (at least not by name). If someone
> > knows of/can find a cite for specific flow descriptions during
> > Compulsion I'd appreciate it.
>
I really thought there was one. Something tells me that a female
channeler glimpsed the flows nanoseconds before losing all willpower,
I just can't pinpoint it.
I know it is *not*:
(1) when Moggy Compells Elayne and Nynaeve
(2) when Moggy Compells Liandrin after Liandrin tried to Compel her.
Only thing is, I can't for the life of me think of another instance
where we get a POV from a Compelled channeler. Morgase doesn't count.
Oh well.
--
Mitch
Kutulu
wrote:
>"Indigo Wombat" <indigo...@indigowombat.com> wrote in message news:<Lwc2a.3827$377....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
When Moggy tries to Compel Nynaeve in the Panarch's Palace, in The
Shadow Rising, it is described.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Chapter 54, "Into the Palace", page 628)
She staggered under the whiplash recoil, like a physical blow, and the
Forsaken struck with a complex weave of Spirit streaked by Water and
Air. Nynaeve have no idea what it meant to do; frantically she tried
to cut it as she had seen the other woman do, with a keen-edged weave
of Spirit. For a heartbeat she felt love, devotion, worship for the
magnificent woman who would deign to allow her to . . .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is exactly the same effect (the undying devotion part) that is
described the first time Moggy meets them in Tanchio, in their rooms,
and she refers to what she used as "compulsion" (lower-case), but I
think it's clearly intended to be Compulsion the Talent.
--K
Kutulu
wrote:
>Kutulu <kut...@spamtulu.org> wrote in message news:<c58j4vsjgurneud2l...@4ax.com>...
I think this one makes the most sense after all I've read. Moggy's
compulsion that is used on Elayne/Nynaeve appears to be some sort of
"undying devotion to me" Compulsion (anyone else get images of
Kahlan's Confessor power here? ;) ) Other times we see varying
effects, from outright "puppet" control, to very subtle "you really
outta reconsider doing what I asked" control.
I would make sense that a stronger, more blunt and direct form of
Compulsion might work in cases that something subtler did not.
>2. Holding the Source is proof against all forms of Compulsion, and
>Elayne was not (initially) Compelled. Perhaps Moghedien was using
>another trick (some form of Illusion) to overawe Elayne to the point
>where she released Saidin, then struck with Compulsion.
This alternative keeps nagging me for a very stupid and nit-picky
reason: when Moggy complains about the limitations of "compulsion"
it's not capitalized. I know that's a really stupid thing to base an
argument on, but given the other somewhat contradictory information,
perhaps it's significant?
>5. Some combination of the above. For instance, RJ may have *meant*
>for Elayne to have been Shielded, *then* Compelled rather than just
>Compelled, and forgotten to put it in. Or some such.
I don't think this specific one works, only because he did write that
she "let go" of the Source. Were she Shielded she would just find
herself suddenly without the Source. But as you say, it still could
be a combination of factors, just not this specific combination :)
>> Which leads me to another question: Is the bond bi-directional? Does
>> it matter which person laid the bond on which other person, or could
>> Rand (if he knew) Bond-Compel Alanna?
>
>Myrelle just has to touch the part of her warder containing her bond
>with Spirit. If there is a corresponding part of her, then I would
>assume bond-compulsion works in both ways; otherwise, Rand would have
>to bond Alanna first.
Rand claims to be able to sense Alanna in his head, a "knot" I think
it's called where he can sense her emotions, but that's inside _him_.
I don't know if this is the same as what Alanna gets.
--K
Mitchell Swan
> When Moggy tries to Compel Nynaeve in the Panarch's Palace, in The
> Shadow Rising, it is described.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> (Chapter 54, "Into the Palace", page 628)
>
> She staggered under the whiplash recoil, like a physical blow, and the
> Forsaken struck with a complex weave of Spirit streaked by Water and
> Air. Nynaeve have no idea what it meant to do; frantically she tried
> to cut it as she had seen the other woman do, with a keen-edged weave
> of Spirit. For a heartbeat she felt love, devotion, worship for the
> magnificent woman who would deign to allow her to . . .
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is exactly the same effect (the undying devotion part) that is
> described the first time Moggy meets them in Tanchio, in their rooms,
> and she refers to what she used as "compulsion" (lower-case), but I
> think it's clearly intended to be Compulsion the Talent.
>
Thank you! This is exactly what I was referring to when I replied to
Indigo yesterday. Somehow I had parsed this an an example of when the
Compulsion was successful. If I had remembered that the weaves
vanished, not because she lost willpower, but because she fought it, I
would have looked for this cite earlier.
Whew, I'm not insane after all.
--
Mitch
Eric Means
> Eric Means wrote:
> > Kutulu <kut...@spamtulu.org> wrote in message
> > news:<c58j4vsjgurneud2l...@4ax.com>...
> >> On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:00:02 -0500, Peter Reid
> >> <peter.j.r...@CAPSsympatico.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Eric Means wrote:
> >>>>
> > That does present a wrinkle. However, that scene (AFAIK) takes place
> > before either Rand's bonding or this scene:
> > (LOC, Chapter 6, page 132 in my hardback):
> > "She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that
> > she could wield the weaker forms of it with a great delicacy, twisting
> > a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss
> > every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who
> > ever lived.
> > [Sammael] let the gateway vanish but held on to saidin; those tricks
> > did not work on someone wrapped in the Source."
> >
>
> I thought this was the commonly accepted interpretation around these
> parts...?
Read the quote again. It says "those tricks did not work on someone
wrapped in the Source." It doesn't say "...did not work on someone
*holding* *saidin*." It says "the Source". Both saidin and saidar
access the same source.
Eric Means
> On 11 Feb 2003 23:11:21 -0800, eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means)
> wrote:
>
> >"Indigo Wombat" <indigo...@indigowombat.com> wrote in message news:<Lwc2a.3827$377....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
> >> Eric Means wrote:
> >>
> When Moggy tries to Compel Nynaeve in the Panarch's Palace, in The
> Shadow Rising, it is described.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> (Chapter 54, "Into the Palace", page 628)
>
> She staggered under the whiplash recoil, like a physical blow, and the
> Forsaken struck with a complex weave of Spirit streaked by Water and
> Air. Nynaeve have no idea what it meant to do; frantically she tried
> to cut it as she had seen the other woman do, with a keen-edged weave
> of Spirit. For a heartbeat she felt love, devotion, worship for the
> magnificent woman who would deign to allow her to . . .
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, there we go. Spirit, with Water and Air. Now if the
bond-compulsion weave is Spirit only, we have a pretty solid
conjecture: bond-compulsion is to Compulsion as normal AS Healing is
to Nyn's all-five-powers Healing. That is, similar effects, but uses
fewer elements and is probably not as versatile/subtle.
Thanks for the cite.
Zdenek Dvorak
Eric Means <eric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Kutulu <kut...@spamtulu.org> wrote in message news:<gorl4v8si891llag1...@4ax.com>...
>> On 11 Feb 2003 23:11:21 -0800, eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Indigo Wombat" <indigo...@indigowombat.com> wrote in message news:<Lwc2a.3827$377....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
>> >> Eric Means wrote:
>> >>
>> When Moggy tries to Compel Nynaeve in the Panarch's Palace, in The
>> Shadow Rising, it is described.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> (Chapter 54, "Into the Palace", page 628)
>>
>> She staggered under the whiplash recoil, like a physical blow, and the
>> Forsaken struck with a complex weave of Spirit streaked by Water and
>> Air. Nynaeve have no idea what it meant to do; frantically she tried
>> to cut it as she had seen the other woman do, with a keen-edged weave
>> of Spirit. For a heartbeat she felt love, devotion, worship for the
>> magnificent woman who would deign to allow her to . . .
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Well, there we go. Spirit, with Water and Air. Now if the
> bond-compulsion weave is Spirit only,
I don't think it is; I don't have a book to cite right now, but if I
remember well, Bonding weave was described when Elayne bonded Birgitte,
and it was quite complicated weave (could someone look it up please?).
Also, Bonding provides with other side effects (faster healing, ...)
that normal Compulsion surely does not. So probably there is some common
core, but it is quite unlikely that Bonding would be just weaker form of
Compulsion.
> we have a pretty solid
> conjecture: bond-compulsion is to Compulsion as normal AS Healing is
> to Nyn's all-five-powers Healing. That is, similar effects, but uses
> fewer elements and is probably not as versatile/subtle.
Quite relevant to this subject seems to be discussion of Egwene with
Maigan in CoT, What the Oath Rod Can Do. It basically confirms that you
can compel (small c) your warder if you need to and that it requieres
your attention; Maigan proposes modifying bond so that it is
unnecessary, thus effectively turning it to permanent form of
c(C?)ompulsion. This may or may not support your claim -- Egwene knows
both Compulsion (from Moggy) and Bonding (at least from observing
Elayne doing it), but AFAIR she does not compare the weaves anywhere.
Zdenek
Kutulu
wrote:
To follow up to myself: when Rhavin, early in _The Fires of Heaven_
(can you tell how much progress I'm making on rereading the series? ;)
uses Compulsion on the Tower's spy in Caemlyn, he is described as:
"adjusting the weaves of Spirit he has woven around the woman."
(paraphrasing, I'm at work.)
This seems to indicate that the Water/Air are used when setting the
Compulsion weave, but after that, are manipulated by mucking with just
the Spirit part. (Of course, it may just as easily be chalked up to a
_saidin_ vs _saidir_ isue.) When I get home I plan to check for any
description of the bond weave to see if there's a similar complexity
to the initial weave, while only Spirit seems to be involved in the
bond-compelling.
But in that same section it also describes Graendel's use of
Compulsion as being so strong that the Compulsee becomes a mindless
drone. Even what Rhavin is doing seems to have the target immobile
and unable to so much as speak without permission, and he actually
considers his work subtle and minor. So obviously the warder-bond is
a very weak version of Compulsion at best.
My working theory is that the Warder bond and the Compulsion weave
provide two different means to the same end. They wouldn't even
need to be the same process, so long as the end result was the
channeler being given access to the deep recesses of the target's
mind. Once the bond is set, the same weaves used to manipulate the
subject under Compulsion can be used to manipulate the bonded, but
because of the differences in how the initial weaves were set up, the
bond has a much lower potential ooomph than all-out Compulsion. The
Warder bond produces a strong sense of duty and obgliation towards the
AS; Compulsion produces a mindless sense of undying devotion to the
target.
--K
Eric Means
> Hello,
>
> Eric Means <eric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Kutulu <kut...@spamtulu.org> wrote in message news:<gorl4v8si891llag1...@4ax.com>...
> >> On 11 Feb 2003 23:11:21 -0800, eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Indigo Wombat" <indigo...@indigowombat.com> wrote in message news:<Lwc2a.3827$377....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
> >> >> Eric Means wrote:
> >> >>
> >> When Moggy tries to Compel Nynaeve in the Panarch's Palace, in The
> >> Shadow Rising, it is described.
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> (Chapter 54, "Into the Palace", page 628)
> >>
> >> She staggered under the whiplash recoil, like a physical blow, and the
> >> Forsaken struck with a complex weave of Spirit streaked by Water and
> >> Air. Nynaeve have no idea what it meant to do; frantically she tried
> >> to cut it as she had seen the other woman do, with a keen-edged weave
> >> of Spirit. For a heartbeat she felt love, devotion, worship for the
> >> magnificent woman who would deign to allow her to . . .
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Well, there we go. Spirit, with Water and Air. Now if the
> > bond-compulsion weave is Spirit only,
>
> I don't think it is; I don't have a book to cite right now, but if I
> remember well, Bonding weave was described when Elayne bonded Birgitte,
I'm not talking about the bonding weave. I'm talking about the weave
to compel a Warder, which I provided a cite for in another post
showing that *that* weave is pure Spirit.
> and it was quite complicated weave (could someone look it up please?).
> Also, Bonding provides with other side effects (faster healing, ...)
> that normal Compulsion surely does not. So probably there is some common
> core, but it is quite unlikely that Bonding would be just weaker form of
> Compulsion.
Nobody's arguing it is. We're arguing that *compelling* a Warder is a
weaker or cruder form of Compulsion.
> c(C?)ompulsion. This may or may not support your claim -- Egwene knows
> both Compulsion (from Moggy) and Bonding (at least from observing
> Elayne doing it), but AFAIR she does not compare the weaves anywhere.
But we have no reason to think that anyone has taught Eg how to
*compel* a Warder. They (bonding a Warder and compelling a Warder)
are different weaves.
glen
In distinguishing between Compulsion & Warder_Bond, I'm trying to
remember teh scene in [iirc] Intro to PoD, where Moridin is watching
Av Travel from Ebou Dar [perhaps just after she un-ravels teh weave].
As Ishy, he knew about Compel, and he considers different things that
the 'primitives' had created that were unknown in the AoL - iirc, he
mentioned the warder bond as one of them. To me, this would indicate
that, while an AS may very well get a 'compelling' result from some
aspect of the bond, teh bond weave would be different from Compulsion,
not just a weaker/primitive form of it.
From the leverage that Eg had over Myrelle when the compelled
transfer was discovered, whatever Kiruna & Alanna meant by 'use the
bond to bend him' & 'i tried to compel' seems to be a lot less than
what Moraine did to Lan.
>
> My working theory is that the Warder bond and the Compulsion weave
> provide two different means to the same end. They wouldn't even
> need to be the same process, so long as the end result was the
> channeler being given access to the deep recesses of the target's
> mind. Once the bond is set, the same weaves used to manipulate the
> subject under Compulsion can be used to manipulate the bonded, but
> because of the differences in how the initial weaves were set up, the
> bond has a much lower potential ooomph than all-out Compulsion. The
> Warder bond produces a strong sense of duty and obgliation towards the
> AS; Compulsion produces a mindless sense of undying devotion to the
> target.
>
> --K
So, how do you want to fit in the bi-directional aspect of the spirit
contact? Warders sense where their AS is directionally, they share
pain/pleasure nerves with the AS(1). When Semi tortures Cabriana, she
notices that the Warder seemed to feel it, and when she stimulated the
pleasure nerves on the Warder, Cabriana responded to that [& Semi
thought 'Fun!']. Compulsion as practiced my Moggy & Graendal has none
of this bi-directionality.
glen
(1)[LoC.6 Threads of Woven Shadow]
http://photeus.com/~ewot/books/loc/ch6.html
glen
> "Daniel Giblett" <daniel_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ab6e9530.03020...@posting.google.com...
>
> [snip stuff about Asha'man warders]
>
> > Logain and the two AS he has in tow - he seems to be completely in
> > charge of everything there.
>
> While we're on the subject, what exactly is "the extra bit" included in
> the Asha'man's wife-bonding??? I have my suspiscions, but it would be
> nice to know that I'm not the only sicko out there who thinks that the
> women get off on the bonding(on this newsgroup, I KNOW that can't be
> possible). Allow me to quote Toveine's bonding:
>
> "She had only a heartbeat to realize his lips were touching hers,
> then sight vanished, and warmth flooded through her. More than warmth.
> She was melting honey inside, bubbling honey, rushing towards the boil.
> She was a harpstring, vibrating faster and faster, vibrating to
> invisibility and faster still. She was a thin crystal vase, quivering on
> the brink of shattering. The harpstring broke; the vase shattered.
> "'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!'"
> "...For a moment she could not think coherently. Panting..."
> Logain: "I could have done without the extra bit...yet I suppose it's
> necessary. You're hardly a wife." (tPoD, The Extra Bit)
>
> I wish my boyfriend could do that with a kiss!!
>
> But, I digress. It seems there is more to the bond than the sign-on
> perks...
>
what's the extra-bit?... well, if Jur Grady's story to Perrin
[ACoS-27] about AM developing the wife-bond as a simple means of
assurance that the other was ok, that the mind-contact could overcome
the 'horror' of male channeling because the wife was also inside the
head of her husband, having the weave come from a moment of deep
intimacy between the couple is really beautiful.
But, there was nothing in Grady's story of any compulsion. Yet, by
the time Tov & crew arrive, the 'command' aspect is well-developed.
Does anyone else sense Taim's guiding hand here? Rand explicitly
warned Taim away from any AS, but Taim could have developed the 'extra
bit' of compulsion/control on any woman.
It wouldn't necessarily be a part of the weave an AM would place on
his wife, but Logain was capturing a prisoner and included the 'extra
bit' [of control]in the manner it was taught.. ;)
> In WH, Gabrelle tells Toveine what it's like being in bed with Logain:
>
> Gabrelle: "I wonder whether it's like that for ordinary women."..."I
> felt...helpless."..."He was...in charge, I suppose, though that isn't
> quite right. Just...stronger, and I knew it. It felt...strangely
> exhilarating" (WH, Snow)
>
> Ok, so maybe we can just chalk this up to Gabrelle being Aes Sedai and at
> the wrong end of the bond, but it seems like there is more she is hinting
> at. We definitely see that there is more to it when we get her POV in the
> prologue to CoT, but I'm not quite sure what that "more" is exactly:
>
> "Playing the Domani turned out to hide many surprises, and a few
> pitfalls. Worst of all, a trap she could never reveal to anyone.
> Something she very much feared that Toveine knew, though, at least in
> part. But then, any sister who had followed her lead must know, too, and
> she thought several had. ... Logain could mask the bond...but sometimes
> when they shared a pillow, he let the masking slip. To say the least, the
> results were...devastating. There was no calm restraint, then, no cool
> study. Not much of reason at all." (CoT, Glimmers of the Pattern)
>
> I initially assumed that the "trap" she fears revealing was that she and
> Logain were falling in love, which to an AS would be about like falling
> in love with Charles Manson. Or Saddam Hussein. The "devastating" effects
> seem to indicate an intimacy that makes Aes Sedai serenity
> impossible--maybe Gabrelle and the bonded AS even find themselves willing
> to give up being AS in order to be with their Asha'man? Could that be it?
> I feel like I have a general understanding of the sexual nature of the
> Asha'man "wife-bonding," but it sounds more insidious than I am
> imagining. Gabrelle hints at "many" surprises and "a few" pitfalls, plus
> the "worst-of-all" trap. Any ideas?
>
> Vanessa
>
> PS- I feel like this must have been discussed before, but I've pretty
> much memorized the FAQ and did another search, and still couldn't find
> anything. So my apologies if this has already been answered, and a
> request for pointers to said answers.
i agree with your ideas on the love-trap, the AS falling in love with
their 'monsters' as devastating. other authors have imaged very
powerful impact of telepathic love-making & complete sensual feedback.
could that be part of it?
glen
Adam Canning
ioa...@wotmania.com says...
> [snip]
> >
> > Having said that, it's obvious that malicious Compulsion is seen as
> > something akin to rape in Randland (rightly so). This is why the
> > warder bond must be consensual: the Warder needs to know, understand,
> > and accept that the AS could compel him to behave in a certain way.
> >
>
> How can compulsion be non-malicious? All compulsion is malicious.
Using Compulsion to keep a Gaidin from pining away for his dead Aes Sedai
until you can find another reason for him to live? As a more general case
in the treatment of depression or addictions? As a way of preventing
recidivism?
Adam
glen
> Kutulu <kut...@spamtulu.org> wrote in message news:<v0ko4v8sjus1d7al9...@4ax.com>...
> > On 13 Feb 2003 10:16:30 -0800, eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means)
> > wrote:
> > But in that same section it also describes Graendel's use of
> > Compulsion as being so strong that the Compulsee becomes a mindless
> > drone. Even what Rhavin is doing seems to have the target immobile
> > and unable to so much as speak without permission, and he actually
> > considers his work subtle and minor. So obviously the warder-bond is
> > a very weak version of Compulsion at best.
>
> In distinguishing between Compulsion & Warder_Bond, I'm trying to
> remember teh scene in [iirc] Intro to PoD, where Moridin is watching
> Av Travel from Ebou Dar [perhaps just after she un-ravels teh weave].
correcting my own post, Moridin scene in the Intro is a POV on
sha'rah. The scene I wanted is in chap. 2 'Unravelling' after
Elayne's band saddles & leaves.
> >[snips]
> > My working theory is that the Warder bond and the Compulsion weave
> > provide two different means to the same end.
>
Last night tracking down the reference above, I also found in PoD,
chap5, 'Breaking Storm', where Elayne's POV gives a lot of detail
about linking. One of the thoughts she has is the similarity of the
warder bond to linking AS. In that same section, the Windfinders
raise questions about teh link being used to compel others in the link
and one AS went into detailed history of study proving it couldn't be
done. At the end, she just said "try it, you'll see."
so, i argue against your working theory that the warder bond was
developed from what was known about linking AS to creating a
bi-directional spirit-link between AS & others for purposes quite the
opposite of Compulsion.
In this thread's example of Moraine & Lan, i'd argue the wording shows
Mor specifically added some form of Compulsion into the weave of
transferrence to make sure Lan went to Myrelle.* There's nothing in
the warder bond per se that would have forced him to Myrelle. Lan's
pissed "you've never had to compel me", does show that he may be aware
of other situations where warders _were_ forced by AS to certain
actions [more likely, INactions]. i don't think this shows "the same
end" as Compulsion at all.
glen
Eric Means
> gvan...@ccsf.org (glen) wrote in message news:<2002fc2e.03021...@posting.google.com>...
> > Kutulu <kut...@spamtulu.org> wrote in message news:<v0ko4v8sjus1d7al9...@4ax.com>...
> > > On 13 Feb 2003 10:16:30 -0800, eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Means)
> > > wrote:
> [snip]
> > > My working theory is that the Warder bond and the Compulsion weave
> > > provide two different means to the same end.
> >
> Last night tracking down the reference above, I also found in PoD,
> chap5, 'Breaking Storm', where Elayne's POV gives a lot of detail
> about linking. One of the thoughts she has is the similarity of the
> warder bond to linking AS. In that same section, the Windfinders
> raise questions about teh link being used to compel others in the link
> and one AS went into detailed history of study proving it couldn't be
> done. At the end, she just said "try it, you'll see."
>
> so, i argue against your working theory that the warder bond was
> developed from what was known about linking AS to creating a
> bi-directional spirit-link between AS & others for purposes quite the
> opposite of Compulsion.
>
> In this thread's example of Moraine & Lan, i'd argue the wording shows
> Mor specifically added some form of Compulsion into the weave of
> transferrence to make sure Lan went to Myrelle.* There's nothing in
> the warder bond per se that would have forced him to Myrelle. Lan's
> pissed "you've never had to compel me", does show that he may be aware
> of other situations where warders _were_ forced by AS to certain
> actions [more likely, INactions]. i don't think this shows "the same
> end" as Compulsion at all.
See this post: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9660c87e.0302112311.64f8f279%40posting.google.com
(watch wrap)
Myrelle acts as if 1) she's done this before, and 2) it's not out of
the ordinary for a sister to compel her warder. I don't think it's
some "additional form of Compulsion" in the weave of transferrence. I
think it's an intrinsic part of the bond. The bond is quite clearly
different from linking in a number of vital ways:
1. An AS and her Warder have to separately link in order to share
Power (see Cleansing).
2. Both AS and Warder gain physical resources they would not have had
without the bond. This is not present in the channeling link.
There's no reason to believe that other major differences -- such as
the ability for the bond to be used to compel one party -- cannot also
exist.
Also, note that we have clear evidence that at least one kind of
channeling link *can* be used to compel one party: the a'dam. Just
because the AS didn't discover it doesn't mean it is impossible, just
that the AS will *believe* it to be so.