Ilias, please read
Gary Stark
It would appear that you believe that there has been some interference
with your access to the this newsgroup and your postings in here.
Let me state that, because of your history within this newsgroup, I
believe that you will get little sympathy from the members here.
Perhaps, Ilias, now would be a good time for you to consider your future
within this group.
It would appear to be quite clear that the majority of participants here
wnat nothing at all to do with you. When there are so many people here
all relatively happily dealing with one another, you should take a
moment or two and ask yourself why does no one want to speak with, or
have anything to do with you.
If you can examine this from an honest perspective, you will see that
the answer does not lie within the business or doings of the others. It
lies purely within the manner within which you have conducted yourself
within this group.
You have been asked by many to listen. You have refused.
You have been asked by many to tone down your attitude. You have
refused.
You have been asked to research your points better, and to change your
style of postings to one that is more in keeping with the standards that
are in general use on the internet. You have refused.
You have been asked to apologies to those whom you have upset through
your unreasonable expectations and demands. You have refused.
You have effectively been asked to ensure your postings comply with the
charter for this newsgroup, but you have refused.
Now you are complaining that your right to free speech is being
"violated". I can only say that you, in refusing to acknowledge the
rights of all the other users of this facility, have brought whatever
has now happened, upon yourself.
Your clear failure to respect others here has led to this current
situation.
May I make a suggestion?
You need to now consider your position. You are disatisfied with the
current situation, and that is perfectly understandable. I believe that
there are two ways that you can deal with it.
1: You need to now consider that you, with your attiitude so far, have
been infringing upon the rights of everyone else here, and you need to
seriously review your behaviour. I am not for a moment suggesting that
others have rights superior to yours; nothing could be further from the
truth. But just as their rights cannot and should not override yours,
neither can nor should your rights override their's. The problem arises
though that you are but one lone voice out there, and almost everyone
else here is united in their feelings against you. So, your right cannot
and will not subvert anyone else's rights in here, and I believe that
the term "majority rules" will apply.
2: You can move on.
I believe that I speak for most people here in that we would like to see
you progress with VO, but we do not wish to be abused and insulted by
you in the process of offering to you our assistance.
You need to learn, understand and accept that the rules for providing
that help are set by the individuals providing such help. If you are not
prepared to accept and live by those rules, please move on; you will not
be welcome here.
Let me assure you that if you choose to persist with your current
attitude we have the means available to move this forum into a closed
and private venue. This is a relatively easy task - I can have a closed
forum operational in five minutes, should I so desire. If that occurs, I
doubt you will be permitted to participate, and there will be nothing
you can do about it.
The choice, Ilias, is yours and yours alone.
You either get with the program, or you move along.
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
ilias
I'm not interested in discussing further about my person.
Everyone of this Newsgroup is free to ignore my messages.
But *no one* of this Newsgroup is free to Forged Cancel my messages.
-
Erik Visser
You do not have to discus your person, and as you can see many members of
this newsgroup do not want to discus you.
We want to discus VO in general.
I am the one who cancelled your messages.
It was my intention of giving you the message you can not continue the way
you did.
I understand you got the message clear.
I am not sorry for what i was after, but the way i did it, was not the right
and civil one. Herefor i apologize. To you, but also and perhaps even more
to the ones here that see this as 'the end of free speach' .
Erik Visser
Ginny Caughey
I think it's important for Ilias to understand that some of us recognize that he
does have good ideas from time to time. Unfortunately, by hiding behind an alias
and by often expressing himself in a hostile manner, his good ideas are ignored.
Most of the people on this newsgroup use their real names and are generally
polite. If Ilias's posts were like that too, he would find himself much more
welcome. If he does not, he will continue to be kill-filed by most of us. I
would encourage everyone else here to just not reply to any inappropriate posts
that Ilias makes, and I would encourage Ilias to change his identity to his real
name and start over with us in the spirit of this newsgroup.
--
Ginny
"Gary Stark" <nom3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3F572D7B...@RedbacksWeb.com...
Turan Fettahoglu
inappropriate posts
> that Ilias makes, and I would encourage Ilias to change his identity to
his real
> name and start over with us in the spirit of this newsgroup.
Dear Ginny:
do you remember the trolls that keep on asking about the "jdbgmgr.exe"
virus? Even if someone answers "Hoax" or "Don't feed the Troll" another
unknown person will answer and play the innocent newbie.
More likely than not, the innocent newbie is the same troll under a
different alias.
Give Ilias the chance for one (not two) reasonable, polite posts. If he
fails, lock him out for good and don't confound the right to free speech
with an obligation to listen.
Kind regards
Turan
Ginny Caughey
> Give Ilias the chance for one (not two) reasonable, polite posts. If he
> fails, lock him out for good and don't confound the right to free speech
> with an obligation to listen.
This sounds reasonable to me, and it's a choice that each person can choose to
make with his kill-file. I think it would be a shame for people not to at least
give Ilias (or his new identity) one more chance though, since our community
needs all the good ideas it can get.
Ginny
Luigi De Palma
I am of I come to an agreement with you, I must be tolerant, available,
loyal, patients.
Fortunately, we are In many and much various: Language, Race, Traditions,
etcc....
Personally, I read to every day, all the day, this newsgroup why it is
source ( perhaps the only one ) of support for the VO, but do not reply a
lot because of the English language: IN PAST, SOME OF YOU, HAVE ANSWERED To
MY QUESTIONS OF AID IN BADLY WAY Because of the language := < remember :SHE
AND NOT HE>.
Ilias รจ uno di noi := "VO DEVELOPPER"
bye From Naples.
Luigi De Palma
"Ginny Caughey" <ginny....@wasteworks.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:bj7ir8$ffp5e$1...@ID-144704.news.uni-berlin.de...
Gary Stark
I suspect that you're missing - or avoiding - the point.
ilias wrote:
> I've lost very much time with those Forged Cancels.
We have only your word that these cancels are "forged".
Consider that I sent a message about your abuse to your provider. Your
provider responded saying that they weren't convinced that you were
abusing the system. I then sent them further details, referring them to
the charter for the newsgroup, and pointed out that a major proportion
of your messages fell outside the bounds of the charter.
And then your messages started to be cancelled.
I would suggest that it is well within the scope of your provider's
authority to take such action if they feel it is warranted. Do you have
any evidence that says they have not started to do this?
> I'm not interested in discussing further about my person.
This seems to remain your problem, in that you continue to refuse to
accept that you may be at fault. This false belief in your own
infallibility will be your downfall.
> Everyone of this Newsgroup is free to ignore my messages.
Everyone pretty well has been.
Now it's even easier because they're getting through. Please take
careful note that there are not too many here complaining of their and
your - absence.
====================
From the tone of your message, particularly where you dismiss our olive
branch by saying "I'm not interested in discussing further about my
person." it would seem to me that you remain unrepentant in this matter.
We have tried. We have tried very hard.
You are, truly, welcome here only when you are prepared to behave in a
civil manner and respect the rights of the others who may use this
facility. As it would seem that this is probably not likely to hapen,
you should consider moving on.
We will ignore you. And whilstever you persist in your poor behaviour,
we will continue to provide whatever evidence of your bad behavior to
any provider who provides you with service in order that your service
gets termniated
Gary Stark
Ginny Caughey wrote:
> Gary,
>
> I think it's important for Ilias to understand that some of us recognize that he
> does have good ideas from time to time. Unfortunately, by hiding behind an alias
> and by often expressing himself in a hostile manner, his good ideas are ignored.
Absolutely correct.
And as Erik pointed out, we have less than no interest in discussing Ilias, Erik,
you, me, or Geoff. This community is about Visual Objects.
Questions can be asked, Answers may be given. or they might not. That's the luck of
the draw. If somebody only gives you half of the answer that you felt you wanted ...
too bad. That's how it is.
It is not acceptable to belittle, berate and offend those who are attempting to help
simply because they didn't go far enough for your liking. If you're not happy with
the outcome ... move on.
> Most of the people on this newsgroup use their real names and are generally
> polite. If Ilias's posts were like that too, he would find himself much more
> welcome. If he does not, he will continue to be kill-filed by most of us. I
> would encourage everyone else here to just not reply to any inappropriate posts
> that Ilias makes, and I would encourage Ilias to change his identity to his real
> name and start over with us in the spirit of this newsgroup.
The ball is truly in Ilias's court.
Michael Zech
didn't you read Erik's message:
Michael
"Gary Stark" <nom3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3F576412...@RedbacksWeb.com...
Gary Stark
Michael Zech wrote:
> Gary,
>
> didn't you read Erik's message:
I read the messages in chronologcal order. Ilias's was posted before Erik's,
and thus I saw it before I saw Erik's.
So, no, and then yes.
I would say that this means that the cancellations - clearly forged - will now
stop.
The significant question now is, will Ilias's abuse of the newsgroup also stop?
I hope so.
Greg Garza
> Now you are complaining that your right to free speech is being
> "violated". I can only say that you, in refusing to acknowledge the
> rights of all the other users of this facility, have brought whatever
> has now happened, upon yourself.
I've been trying to find anywhere that states that a person has the
"right" to post anything they want to a Newsgroup. Where is this right
defended? Is it a right?
As far as I'm concerned, I consider it a privilege and a great benefit
to be able to post to this Newsgroup. I've never known it to be my
"God-given" right to have access to it and be able to post whatever I
want to it.
Also, where are the penalties for cancelling someone else's posts
listed? (BTW...I'll also chip in for Erik's defense fund).
> Let me assure you that if you choose to persist with your current
> attitude we have the means available to move this forum into a closed
> and private venue. This is a relatively easy task - I can have a
closed
> forum operational in five minutes, should I so desire. If that occurs,
I
> doubt you will be permitted to participate, and there will be nothing
> you can do about it.
Let me be the first one to throw in my vote for this (in case you're
wanting to start a moderated group). I'm not looking to start a debate
about Freedom of Speech/Expression/etc., etc., etc., so please don't go
there. What I would look forward to is On-Topic Discussions. For the
most part, I feel that the VO community is mature enough to adhere to
generally accepted netiquette and would feel comfortable allowing just
about anyone in here to be the moderator.
Regarding the very valid point about Ilias posting some good (I use the
term loosely) thought-provoking discussion about certain things. I
agree that all -- even he -- should be allowed certain latitudes to
express likes and dislikes. But when one starts to flagrantly abuse
volunteered help, my sympathy stops.
To summarize my point, I'm not arguing the Freedom of Speech thing, I
just want control over obvious abuse. This is a technical support
newsgroup with a charter, NOT the local city hall where discussions are
protected by the Bill of Rights. From what we've seen the past few
months I don't consider the definition of abuse a grey area. It's been
pretty well defined.
Greg Garza
ilias
wrote:
>Ilias
>You do not have to discus your person,
That's right.
But circumstances can force one.
>and as you can see many members of this newsgroup do not want to discus you.
One member is enough to let the silence die.
>We want to discus VO in general.
So please do that - and remind others to do that, too.
I want to discuss VO, too.
With my way, which everyone is free to ignore.
>I am the one who cancelled your messages.
I know that, due to the cancel-logs.
Additionally you've made 2 mistakes:
postet by "use...@abeon.com", signed by "Erik"
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bj21vr%244ek%241%40reader08.wxs.nl
and here surprisingly i'm able to write in Dutch
(could you provide a translation of what 'I' have written there?)
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bj3v6b%249no%241%40reader10.wxs.nl
[For the wellness of the climatic conditions in this group, i am
writing a little 'light' about those two messages. However, please
notice that the domain "abeon.com" is a personal domain which is
registred with my personal data. This makes this issue very serious.]
>It was my intention of giving you the message you can not continue the way
>you did.
You are wrong.
I can continue 'the way' i did.
And i will.
>I understand you got the message clear.
You understand wrong.
I understand the VO-community got the message clear.
At least partly.
And hopefully everyone will realize the first step for a better VO.
>I am not sorry for what i was after, but the way i did it, was not the right
>and civil one. Herefor i apologize.
Apology granted.
I could say that you 'owe' me 3 working day's now.
But i won't, as I've learned very much in the 'lost' 3 days.
>To you, but also and perhaps even more
>to the ones here that see this as 'the end of free speach' .
...and perhaps a little to yourself?
...
-
I'd like to apologize honestly if the reactions i had to take resulted
in any personal problems for you.
And finally, to avoid any missunderstandings:
This 'file' is closed for me.
>Erik Visser
ILIAS LAZARIDIS
-
Dave Francis
I think you've got to stop wasting your breath on this fellow. I flared at
him once and immediately regretted it - it's like being angry with a
sponge - it takes all you throw at it, then spits it all back out mixed up
and out of context.
He thrives on this attention - your only hope is to starve his ego by
ignoring his postings. If you want to do something positive, then go
entertain and amuse those people around you that you value. [That's
something I doubt he can do at all well].
Lastly, consider how fortunate we are - it could be Attila the Hun. There'd
be missing limbs as well as hurt feelings then, and it would be getting
mushy under foot.
That's all I've got to say on this. I'm not going to post on anything
related to him again - waste of bandwidth <g>.
Dave Francis
"Gary Stark" <nom3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3F57663F...@RedbacksWeb.com...
ilias
<gga...@ruddwisdom.com> wrote:
>Regarding the very valid point about Ilias posting some good (I use the
>term loosely) thought-provoking discussion about certain things. I
>agree that all -- even he -- should be allowed certain latitudes to
>express likes and dislikes. But when one starts to flagrantly abuse
>volunteered help, my sympathy stops.
I assume you meant my person.
Please provide a link, where i "flagrantly abused volunteered help".
[thus anyone, including me, can evaluate your statement.]
ilias
<ginny....@wasteworks.com> wrote:
>Gary,
>
>I think it's important for Ilias to understand that some of us recognize that he
>does have good ideas from time to time.
I know about this.
As I know about the inability of the majority to admit that.
The Power Of Egoism.
>Unfortunately, by hiding behind an alias
>and by often expressing himself in a hostile manner, his good ideas are ignored.
i do not hide behind an alias.
it is my first name, as anounced.
and a private domain.
>Most of the people on this newsgroup use their real names and are generally
>polite. If Ilias's posts were like that too, he would find himself much more
>welcome. If he does not, he will continue to be kill-filed by most of us.
Did you ever think about that this could be my kind of filtering?
Polite people, with real names, with disrespect to individuality.
>I would encourage everyone else here to just not reply to any inappropriate posts
>that Ilias makes,
there are no inappropriate posts.
only inappropriate interpretations.
(if you can: point me to an inapropriate post, whilst applying the
same rules for each in this group)
>and I would encourage Ilias to change his identity to his real
>name
seriously.
the "real name" was the problem?
thus you sayed:
"Looks like a global gift then"
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bj4t6v%24f5pnp%241%40ID-144704.news.uni-berlin.de
>and start over with us in the spirit of this newsgroup.
of course not.
-
The spirit of this Newsgroup...
... is killing VO!
Troll Watcher
ilias is well-known on this, and other, newsgroups as an unreliable
source of information. The purpose of his postings is usually to
mis-represent some personal hang-up he has as a valid topic for this newsgroup.
Please ensure you check the veracity of any information he posts. We also strongly
recommend that you do not reply to him. Apart from the encouragement it may provide
him,invariably you will receive some bad-mannered, illogical and spiteful responses
for your efforts.
Troll Watcher
Markus Feser
that he
> does have good ideas from time to time. Unfortunately, by hiding behind an
alias
> and by often expressing himself in a hostile manner, his good ideas are
ignored.
> Most of the people on this newsgroup use their real names and are
generally
> polite. If Ilias's posts were like that too, he would find himself much
more
> welcome. If he does not, he will continue to be kill-filed by most of us.
I
> would encourage everyone else here to just not reply to any inappropriate
posts
> that Ilias makes, and I would encourage Ilias to change his identity to
his real
> name and start over with us in the spirit of this newsgroup.
>
> --
> Ginny
Ginny,
he is only a troll!
Only one sample:
in comp.lang.lisp
http://groups.google.de/groups?dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&rnum=1&thl
=0,1168245393,1168239381,1168235078,1168213597,1166547012,1168211581,1168194
147,1168105786,1168095636,1168090013,1168089775&seekm=amq2c0%241i8%241%40use
net.otenet.gr#link7
please all ignore him!
(pontos.net is the same adress like abeon.com)
Markus Feser