why not remove www? Currently http://vim.org/ doesn't work
realfun
sup...@lists.sourceforge.net get no response)
Twitter/Facebook/Google/Flickr/Yahoo/Microsoft, all these websites
works well without www. in the url.
But type vim.org in the url of google chrome simply opens nothing -
it's required to input www.vim.org instead. I will be good if we could
redirect vim.org to www.vim.org, an apache rewrite rule should make
the work.
--
Zhongfang Ren
http://fayaa.com/
Linda W
> But type vim.org in the url of google chrome simply opens nothing -
> it's required to input www.vim.org instead.
I 2nd the motion...
It's a pain to have vim.org be non-standard, as I never type in 'www.'
in front of sitenames (RSI, less typing...)
How did such a situation arise and go unfixed for so long?
Tony Mechelynck
Maybe because Chrome doesn't act like most other browsers? When
SeaMonkey doesn't find a URL, it will try www. before and/or .com after;
this behaviour is configurable but this is the default. Firefox does the
same and so does Konqueror. I think IE does too but I could be mistaken;
Opera doesn't.
Best regards,
Tony.
--
Buzz off, Banana Nose; Relieve mine eyes
Of hateful soreness, purge mine ears of corn;
Less dear than army ants in apple pies
Art thou, old prune-face, with thy chestnuts worn,
Dropt from thy peeling lips like lousy fruit;
Like honeybees upon the perfum'd rose
They suck, and like the double-breasted suit
Are out of date; therefore, Banana Nose,
Go fly a kite, thy welcome's overstayed;
And stem the produce of thy waspish wits:
Thy logick, like thy locks, is disarrayed;
Thy cheer, like thy complexion, is the pits.
Be off, I say; go bug somebody new,
Scram, beat it, get thee hence, and nuts to you.
John Beckett
> But type vim.org in the url of google chrome simply opens
> nothing - it's required to input www.vim.org instead. I will
> be good if we could redirect vim.org to www.vim.org, an
> apache rewrite rule should make the work.
This was discussed in August 2010:
http://groups.google.com/group/vim_dev/browse_thread/thread/36b81acf60548c20
The person who manages the DNS for vim.org disagrees with the
proposal that vim.org should resolve as does www.vim.org so
whatever the merits, this is one of those situations where it
is not worth debating about some theoretical benefit of being
able to use vim.org without your browser deciding that it
doesn't work, so it should try www.vim.org instead.
John
donothing successfully
[…]
> whatever the merits, this is one of those situations where it
> is not worth debating about some theoretical benefit of being
> able to use vim.org without your browser deciding that it
> doesn't work, so it should try www.vim.org instead.
If you're averse to the theoretical, what about the
practical?
elinks 'http://vim.org/' — fails.
lynx 'http://vim.org/' — fails.
links2 'http://vim.org/' — fails.
w3m 'http://vim.org/' — fails.
wget 'http://vim.org/' — fails.
vim 'http://vim.org/' — fails!
A user may well assume the site is down if the url doesn't
resolve.
H.
Linda W
> Maybe because Chrome doesn't act like most other browsers? When
> SeaMonkey doesn't find a URL, it will try www. before and/or .com after;
> this behaviour is configurable but this is the default. Firefox does the
> same and so does Konqueror. I think IE does too but I could be mistaken;
> Opera doesn't.
>
> Best regards,
> Tony.
Um....I've seen this error 'forever', and I only run Firefox.
Perhaps you should add another non-working browser to your list...?
Tony Mechelynck
To make it work, there may or may not be something in Firefox's
"Preferences" (or, on Windows, "Options") but you can make it work in
any case as follows:
1. Browse to about:config
2. If you see a warning "This could void your warranty", answer that
you'll be prudent, and proceed.
3. type "fixup" (without the quotes) in the Filter box.
4. Set the following preferences (e.g. by double-clicking them):
Name New value
browser.fixup.alternate.enabled true
browser.fixup.alternate.prefix www.
browser.fixup.alternate.suffix .com
I'm not sure whether these preferences take effect immediately, only in
new tabs, in new windows, or only after a restart.
Best regards,
Tony.
--
"It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it."
-- Steven Wright
Linda W
> To make it work, there may or may not be something in Firefox's
> "Preferences" (or, on Windows, "Options") but you can make it work in
> any case as follows:
---
I wish there was a way to post a screen shot.
I typed in 'about:config', and typed in 'browser.fixup',
The options I have:
browser.fixup.alternate.enabled, status=default, type=boolean, value=true
browser.fixup.alternate.prefix, status=default, type=boolean, value=true
browser.fixup.alternate.suffix, status=default, type=boolean, value=true
browser.fixup.alternate.hide_user_pass, status=default, type=boolean, value=true
From the above, I have those options enabled.
But it doesn't work.
That's why it stands out from other sites.
I notice a query for 'vim.org' via 'dig' doesn't return immediately
with a "not found" from my local name server as happens when a name
doesn't exist, but instead, I get a response back from a server in
the netherlands that it has a null address.
Then there's the fact that www.vim.org is served by another DNS server
so the browser may notice the different authorities and assume that
since they are not the same, then vim.org shouldn't be auto-prefixed to
.www, since they aren't under the same administrative control.
But that's just a guess.
Any domain where the site is named after the company, product or
a project -- the 'www', is optional because it's not part
of the company, product or project name
"www" was useful at the dawning of the 'web' when
domains and servers commonly didn't support the web: the 'www'
prefix was a 'flag' that the company provided a web page.
Now, it's the very uncommon exception -- if a company has any
internet presence, at all, it will have a web page when you
type in the company name (with no 'www').
But besides, that, it seems that 'vim's DNS setup breaks normal
browser roll-over mechanisms, which makes it stick out like a
sore thumb. :-(
Tony Mechelynck
> Tony Mechelynck wrote:
>> To make it work, there may or may not be something in Firefox's
>> "Preferences" (or, on Windows, "Options") but you can make it work in
>> any case as follows:
> ... instructions follow...
> ---
>
> I wish there was a way to post a screen shot.
>
> I typed in 'about:config', and typed in 'browser.fixup',
>
> The options I have:
> browser.fixup.alternate.enabled, status=default, type=boolean, value=true
> browser.fixup.alternate.prefix, status=default, type=boolean, value=true
> browser.fixup.alternate.suffix, status=default, type=boolean, value=true
.prefix and .suffix ought to be type=String, with values set
respectively to www. (small-double-you-for-whiskey
small-double-you-for-whiskey small-double-you-for-whiskey full-stop) and
.com (full-stop small-see-for-Charlie small-oh-for-Oscar
small-em-for-Mike). Normally you can't change the type, except if the
pref is undefined by default, so what happens if you "Reset" these two?
> browser.fixup.alternate.hide_user_pass, status=default, type=boolean,
> value=true
>
>> From the above, I have those options enabled.
>
> But it doesn't work.
>
> That's why it stands out from other sites.
>
> I notice a query for 'vim.org' via 'dig' doesn't return immediately
> with a "not found" from my local name server as happens when a name
> doesn't exist, but instead, I get a response back from a server in
> the netherlands that it has a null address.
I guess it is because other *.vim.org domains do exist: ftp.vim.org is
an alias of ftp.nluug.nl and www.vim.org is (perhaps indirectly) an
alias of vhost.sourceforge.net. From here (Brussels, Belgium) a
traceroute to www.vim.org proceeds via London, Amsterdam,
Frankfort-on-the-Main, Chicago, and a place named Elk Grove, in that
order, which seems rather roundabout to me.
>
> Then there's the fact that www.vim.org is served by another DNS server
> so the browser may notice the different authorities and assume that
> since they are not the same, then vim.org shouldn't be auto-prefixed to
> .www, since they aren't under the same administrative control.
>
> But that's just a guess.
>
> Any domain where the site is named after the company, product or
> a project -- the 'www', is optional because it's not part
> of the company, product or project name
>
> "www" was useful at the dawning of the 'web' when
> domains and servers commonly didn't support the web: the 'www'
> prefix was a 'flag' that the company provided a web page.
>
> Now, it's the very uncommon exception -- if a company has any
> internet presence, at all, it will have a web page when you
> type in the company name (with no 'www').
>
> But besides, that, it seems that 'vim's DNS setup breaks normal
> browser roll-over mechanisms, which makes it stick out like a sore
> thumb. :-(
>
Breaks rollover mechanisms? I'd say it only breaks them for browsers
which don't have one. For browsers which have a rollover mechanism (at
least SeaMonkey and Konqueror), nothing is broken.
Best regards,
Tony.
--
Due to circumstances beyond your control, you are master of your fate
and captain of your soul.
John Beckett
It's a little subtle but correct. I think that what happened is
that someone mailed the DNS manager directly, then quoted their
reply in a message to vim_dev.
Search for "This is by design" at:
http://groups.google.com/group/vim_dev/browse_thread/thread/36b81acf60548c20
John
realfun
wrote:
> I guess it is because other *.vim.org domains do exist: ftp.vim.org is
> order, which seems rather roundabout to me.
1. redirect vim.org to www.vim.org is bad, for blablabla reasons
2. ...and, your browser should redirect vim.org to www.vim.org
The fact is: vim.org can't open in many tools/browsers, the browsers
who can open it redirect it to www.vim.org
So, any PRACTICAL reason to not redirect?
About the quoted answer below, I would take it as squeamish.
You could keep typing www. on your own browser until end of the world
anyway, but please don't force this rule to other people as well. Oh,
don't forgot to type "http://" as it's http, not https.
> Yes. This is by design. Its a bad habit to omit the "www." part if you
> intend to talk to a webserver. Maybe call me an old fart, but you are
> connecting to a webserver, not a domain, and the URL you use should
> reflect that.
Tom
make at least the plugin section a git/svn/hg repo host or tie in to
github and other services and include user feedback (comments maybe,
tickets would be better). Time to step into 2011 and leave 1999
behind?
> --
> You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
> Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
> For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
>
Christian Brabandt
Seconded. This had bugged me many many times with various browsers.
regards,
Christian
Erik Christiansen
"Thirded". Particularly, if after trying all those http applications,
the user decides to have a casual look at DNS:
$ dig vim.org
...
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0
^^^^^^^^^
and sure enough, there's no "ANSWER SECTION:"
Compare the result for google.com, where there are five entries in the
ANSWER SECTION.
It seems decidedly dufus for vim.org not to resolve. This:
$ whois vim.org
gives telephone and email contacts to ask for proper nameserver set up
for vim.org. It's a registered domain (at least until 14th september),
so it's only crappy nameserver config which prevents it resolving.
Erik
--
Meskimen's Law:
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.
Benjamin R. Haskell
> On Sat, Apr 09, 2011 at 02:24:23PM +0200, Christian Brabandt wrote:
>> On Fr, 08 Apr 2011, donothing successfully wrote:
>>>
>>> A user may well assume the site is down if the url doesn't resolve.
>>
>> Seconded. This had bugged me many many times with various browsers.
>
> "Thirded".
"Fourthed".
In response to the domain manager's list-quoted response from the DNS
adminstrator in the thread referenced by John:
> Yes. This is by design. Its a bad habit to omit the "www." part if you
> intend to talk to a webserver. Maybe call me an old fart, but you are
> connecting to a webserver, not a domain, and the URL you use should
> reflect that.
You're an old fart.
Kidding aside, both the 'http://' and 'www.' in 'http://www.vim.org/'
are redundant when typed for the intent of navigating to a website. It
initially made me really mad when Chrome started hiding the
'http://'[1], but times change, and now I appreciate the less visual
clutter. Redundant is redundant. Let the user save a few keystrokes.
> Particularly, if after trying all those http applications, the user
> decides to have a casual look at DNS:
>
> $ dig vim.org
> ...
> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0
> ^^^^^^^^^
> and sure enough, there's no "ANSWER SECTION:"
You're ignoring the other problem, though: what should the A record for
vim.org. be?
www.vim.org. is a CNAME to vhost.sourceforge.net.
The bare domain *can't* be a CNAME[2]. And there's no canonical IP
address returned for vhost.sourceforge.net. As a large site, they
geotarget their DNS responses, the way a CDN does. And they also use IP
lists for load balancing.
> Compare the result for google.com, where there are five entries in the
> ANSWER SECTION.
As an even larger site with an even more complex delivery
infrastructure, google.com. resolves in an even more complicated way
than vhost.sourceforge.net. The six IP address responses from my home
PC (all under 74.125.113.0/24) don't even match the six returned from my
neighbor's wireless router (all under 74.125.93.0/24) less than 20 feet
from my house. Nor do they match the six returned to my web hosting
provider (all under 209.85.225.0/24) located less than a few miles from
my house.
> It seems decidedly dufus for vim.org not to resolve.
Agreed, but it's still not clear what the correct alternative is. The
simplest setup would probably be an Apache box somewhere with
mod_rewrite set up to redirect every http://vim.org(rest-of-url) to
http://www.vim.org(rest-of-url):
RewriteEngine On
RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} =vim.org
RewriteRule - http://www.vim.org${REQUEST_URI} [L,R=permanent]
> This:
>
> $ whois vim.org
>
> gives telephone and email contacts to ask for proper nameserver set up
> for vim.org.
Those contacts don't match "Stefan `Sec` Zehl", whose off-list response
in the role of DNS administrator was quoted in the other thread. Sven
Guckes, listed in the WHOIS info is a regular here, so I won't put words
in his mouth. But pushing for telephone/email contact for this seems
excessive.
> It's a registered domain (at least until 14th september)
(at which point it will undoubtedly auto-renew)
> , so it's only crappy nameserver config which prevents it resolving.
[See above] I agree that vim.org should work, too. But, it's not clear
the easiest setup to allow that.
--
Best,
Ben
[1] http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=41467
[2] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1034#section-3.6.2 RFC 1034 §3.6.2 ¶3:
If a CNAME RR is present at a node, no other data should be present
[and vim.org. *must* have other data, e.g. SOA and NS records.]
sal migondis
it just works. I don't remember changing these settings manually (under Edit->Preferences->Location Bar)
but you can specify adding www and/or com when a web page is 'not found',
so I would assume they are the default.
I tested under Firefox 3.6.13 and was also presented with the vim.org home page. I read recently
that like myself T. Mechelynck scrapped Microsoft Windows. Would this explain why neither
of us has this problem? In any case, I haven't checked IE's behavior.
I do not use Konqueror but I verified that ELinks does fails the test. On the other hand, there
are so many things in Elinks that are customizable, that it would surprise me greatly if this
could not be achieved via some tweak or other.
I can also confirm that Google Chrome 10.6.648.151, which I think is the latest version, failed
the test and I did not see where this could be customized. Maybe getting this to work requires
installing yet another 'extension'.
As an aside, the formulation on the Location Bar settings in Seamonkey suggests that the
browser waits for the resolver to fail and detect a 'not found' condition, and then retries
the query. So maybe, especially on a slow network connection, the DNS solutions discussed
elsewhere are preferable from this angle. But then, since I generally find it quicker (and less
overhead) to just blindly type www.vim.org (as I hear/see it) than having to mentally parse it
into 'vim.org' (or other) than the fraction of a second it takes me to type 'www.', I find that it
does not interfere with my working habits.
Sal
Tony Mechelynck
> I don't mind typing the extra www. but I tried this in seamonkey 2.0.13
> (linux) and
> it just works. I don't remember changing these settings manually (under
> Edit->Preferences->Location Bar)
> but you can specify adding www and/or com when a web page is 'not found',
> so I would assume they are the default.
>
> I tested under Firefox 3.6.13 and was also presented with the vim.org
> home page. I read recently
> that like myself T. Mechelynck scrapped Microsoft Windows. Would this
> explain why neither
> of us has this problem? In any case, I haven't checked IE's behavior.
No, it's just that trying www. if the bare URL doesn't resolve is indeed
SeaMonkey's factory default. The OP used Google Chrome which is not as
clever. ;-)
>
> I do not use Konqueror but I verified that ELinks does fails the test.
> On the other hand, there
> are so many things in Elinks that are customizable, that it would
> surprise me greatly if this
> could not be achieved via some tweak or other.
>
> I can also confirm that Google Chrome 10.6.648.151, which I think is the
> latest version, failed
> the test and I did not see where this could be customized. Maybe getting
> this to work requires
> installing yet another 'extension'.
>
> As an aside, the formulation on the Location Bar settings in Seamonkey
> suggests that the
> browser waits for the resolver to fail and detect a 'not found'
> condition, and then retries
> the query.
This goes quite fast, since the DNS server gives an error "Unknown host"
instead of answering with the IP address. No timeout needed. The added
time comes only from trying a second DNS query with the www. added.
> So maybe, especially on a slow network connection, the DNS
> solutions discussed
> elsewhere are preferable from this angle. But then, since I generally
> find it quicker (and less
> overhead) to just blindly type www.vim.org (as I hear/see it) than
> having to mentally parse it
> into 'vim.org' (or other) than the fraction of a second it takes me to
> type 'www.', I find that it
> does not interfere with my working habits.
>
> Sal
Best regards,
Tony.
--
There was a young lady named Hall,
Wore a newspaper dress to a ball.
The dress caught on fire
And burned her entire
Front page, sporting section, and all.
Adam Monsen
> I wish there was a way to post a screen shot.
There are places online which host images for free. Seems like they
are called "image pastebins" or "photo pastbins". You can upload an
image to one of these sites, then link to it in your post.
* http://inky.ws
* http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net
* http://imageshack.us
* http://tinypic.com
If you want a more permanent home for an image, here are a couple of
free options:
* http://flickr.com
* http://picasaweb.google.com
More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photo_sharing_websites
Text is nice because it's very indexable. But yeah, images are
handy, too. :)