Importing Trinity KDE3

[Kristopher Gamrat]

If there are no objections, I will work on importing the Qt4 based
Trinity KDE3. This will take quite some time considering my home
Internet situation and lack of experience building Qt based packages.
Given that, this is both a personal learning experience and bringing
in KDE3-only fans to build more branches.

--
Kris
"Piki"
Ark Linux Webmaster
Wannabe Unity Linux packager

[Jeremiah Summers]

Wannabe Unity Linux packages

Yes the fact it's not Qt4 based at all... Still Qt3 based. I've been watching it in KDE SVN.

[Kristopher Gamrat]

Hm for some reason I remember seeing somewhere that they'd be Qt4
based. Well, I guess I can import Qt3 if there isn't any objection.

--
Kris
"Piki"
Ark Linux Webmaster

Wannabe Unity Linux packager

[Matthew Dawkins]

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I honestly thought taking the old pclos rpms and seeing if they can be re-done with the new tarballs. That would be my best idea.

If I can get done with all these rebuilds, I would help out with it.

@Piki, we already have qt3.

[Kristopher Gamrat]

If we have Qt3, I must have missed it (though I haven't done much
searching). But at any rate, I'd still like to see KDE3 in our repos.

--
Kris
"Piki"
Ark Linux Webmaster

Wannabe Unity Linux packager

[Matthew Dawkins]

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Yes we have qt3. It's impossible to retire without loosing a ton of good apps.

But yes to having the trinity kde3.5 pkgs.

[Jeremiah Summers]

Good luck from what I've read you're going to need their version of qt3 also I'm going to have to go through all the KDE 4 Packages and make sure I conflict with your packages. If you want them to install side by side you're going to have to place them in opt and build the who base dir there. I'm not really keen on supporting any of that. In my mind you're basically bringing back a very Hackish version of windows 3.1 (look at the code in KDE WebSVN) all because people can't deal with change. No one has ever given me a good reason as to why KDE 3 is still needed even the author Mr. Person's list of reasons are riddled with false claims and mis information about KDE 4. If there's something you need or want to know about KDE 4 ask, maybe Pearson should have taken some time getting to know the KDE 4 code base and contributing in different areas than basically starting over. Two men are going to have to maintain and basically rewrite Qt3 (support ended in 2007) and all the kdecore packages.

Good luck, you're going to need it. It's a task I don't want to touch and I deal with KDE and Qt4 on a day to day basis. It's also a task a vast majority of the Major dsitros aren't supporting, so you're going to have a hard time as you may have to start from scratch yourself in packaging.

Here's an interesting read:
http://vizzzion.org/blog/2010/05/trinity-and-the-challenges-of-continuing-kde-3/

Kind Regards

Jeremiah

[Matthew Dawkins]

You make a good point Jman, all the duplicate old pkgs are going to have to be named with their respective versions to no cause any conflicts nor ocupy the same space as kde4. In my mind kde4 should be always first, but I think options are always good.

[Kristopher Gamrat]

Some people just don't like how KDE4 looks and feels. Also, some
aspects of KDE4 still need stabilized (I have been trying KDE4 on both
Synergy and Ark in their own respective VMs and I still have Nepomuk
crashing out on every boot into the installed version - and yes, I
have tried doing a full upgrade to make sure this wasn't the problem).

--
Kris
"Piki"
Ark Linux Webmaster

Wannabe Unity Linux packager

[Jeremiah Summers]

Crap, yeah options are good, I just feel there's a lot of other options out their other than reviving something they may announce it's demise tomorrow. I could see if there was a HUGE community following, but there's not and with maybe one or two commits on average a day to SVN I don't see much more than bug fixes. Plus you get into how well other applications non qt3 or kde are going to work in the environment. DBus has been adopted as the application communication technology for a vast majority of applications this is now a standard for gtk apps and qt4 apps a like. KDE 3 still uses dcop calls and has no support for DBus for instance in their SystemTray, there is now a new desktop standard for the System Tray for both gtk and kde apps work nicely. I don't think people really realize what they have with Qt4 and KDE 4. If someone wants to build trinity to remind us that the grass is spray painted green on the "other side" in our memories. Then I'm all for it, but I'm not for doing the work myself for something I don't think is going to last more than a year.

[Jeremiah Summers]

You can Make KDE 4 look like KDE 3, also you can disable nepomuk. If nepomuk is crashing for you with the Synergy RPMS you need to file a bug report so it can be fixed. I don't see your bug report.... Communicate to me your issues and we'll see if we can work out something, but trying to go back in time doesn't work. Work to make here and now better. You will have a lot more support and more than two people who can fix your bugs.

Jeremiah

[Richard]

On Friday 13 Aug 2010 22:24:16 Kristopher Gamrat wrote:

> Some people just don't like how KDE4 looks and feels. Also, some

> aspects of KDE4 still need stabilized (I have been trying KDE4 on both

> Synergy and Ark in their own respective VMs and I still have Nepomuk

> crashing out on every boot into the installed version - and yes, I

> have tried doing a full upgrade to make sure this wasn't the problem).

I would have thought that the effort that would be needed to revive KDE 3.5 and QT 3 would be better spent in solving the perceived (or real) shortcomings of KDE 4.

By the way I'm keeping up with all JMiahMan's updates and apart from the odd niggle, it's working well 99.9% for me. I would rather the effort was spent on addressing some of the issues on the issue tracker.

--

Richard.

[Jeremiah Summers]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Jeremiah Summers <jmia...@gmail.com> wrote:

  

You will have a lot more support and more than two people who can fix your bugs.

Jeremiah

That's the issue I have with Mr. Pearson and OpenSource in general. Instead of working with people to make things better, everyone has to go off and do things themselves. The larger projects are the most successful because more people are working together for common goals. The goal should be to not stay in the past but move forward. Qt4 is very impressive, UnetBootin is an example of a C Posix application using Qt4 and truly being cross platform. I have built and edit source for it on both Windows and Linux and the process in building was basically the same. The mobile aspect of Qt4 is awesome also the way KDE 3 was written, it was attached (and still is) to Qt3 that has no future, even now limitations can be seen with handling graphics etc.. (Why Oxygen handling SVGs properly is now possible). So I would think anyone with a clear mind and good reasoning would invest in something with a future instead of hanging onto something dead from the past. I really have to question motives as being emotional and not logical in cases like this.

If you want to build trinity it will be a major learning experience for you. Also it will offer another option, which isn't too terrible. Personally I'm not for it, as you may have noticed. Let me know though when you have something working and packaged and I will look into the work that I may have to do to make sure we can run in parallel. That much I will support. Sorry if I'm being harsh.

Jeremiah
 

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I am not trying to hang on to the past. I could careless whether I am
using KDE 3 or 4 as long as it works properly and does what I need. I
am simply trying to provide an option for others. In regards to
nepomuk, I had always thought this was a KDE issue and not just
Synergy because this happens on two unrelated distros. As per making
KDE4 looking like KDE3, I have yet to find a way to get that silvery
gray coloring. Another complaint I have heard is that it is that its
Control Center is overly simplified. Some people just like a one stop
place to configure everything possible.

[Douglas Wilson]

May I .. I like KDE 3 maybe I'm a dinosaur and strange :)  I have tried every DE Variant and even went back to windows (shudder :) ) ever since KDE 4 came out and I never really cottoned to any of them even though I tried hard to like one. Then one day I heard about trinity and I liked my computer again.

I can't point to one single thing, but KDE4 just doesn't feel right. Well maybe one thing I can point to is Amarok and I wish they did what K3B did and just port it because they still haven't added back some things. Went off on a tangent there, sorry :) So that's what a non developer thinks :)

Doug

[Jeremiah Summers]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Douglas Wilson <hist...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can't point to one single thing, but KDE4 just doesn't feel right. Well maybe one thing I can point to is Amarok and I wish they did what K3B did and just port it because they still haven't added back some things. Went off on a tangent there, sorry :) So that's what a non developer thinks :)

Doug

That's why Clementine exists it's a Port of Amarok 1 to Qt4 and it's in the repos.

Jeremiah 

[Jeremiah Summers]

Not sure what doesn't feel right, you can make KDE 4 look just like KDE 3 with the exception of bugs in kicker and fake transparency in konsole (I'm glad they left that out of KDE 4). You can still use konqueror and not Dolphin even, you can disable nepomuk and strigi. If people would be more willing to tell me a logical argument on what they like and don't like other than their feelings then I think we can get some place. However I must say feel few software projects are created from "feelings" there has to be a logical use for them. The few projects and forks that were created because of "feelings" never survived. It's when they find an actual niche in the market place that people support then so they can survive. KDE 4 is being supported by a logical niche. Feelings are so fleeting but function and use are not. If you can tell me how KDE 3 was more functional for you and helped your work flow in a much more positive fashion I would be interested too see us implement those in our version of KDE 4. However if you're going to tell me the same things everyone else does, what KDE 4 can't do when really it can do it maybe just in a different way than you're used to, I'm just going to chalk it up as you're too lazy to learn and move with progress and too afraid of change to get over your laziness. I'm sick and tired of people be ing arm chair developers and project managers, and then complaining about their feelings, but giving no actual viable feedback. It makes my job pointless.

[OnlyHuman]

On Aug 13, 9:51 pm, Matthew Dawkins <matty...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Jeremiah Summers <jmiah...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Kristopher Gamrat <pikida...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> If there are no objections, I will work on importing the Qt4 based
> >> Trinity KDE3. This will take quite some time considering my home
> >> Internet situation and lack of experience building Qt based packages.
> >> Given that, this is both a personal learning experience and bringing
> >> in KDE3-only fans to build more branches.
>
> >> --
> >> Kris
> >> "Piki"
> >> Ark Linux Webmaster
> >> Wannabe Unity Linux packages
>
> > Yes the fact it's not Qt4 based at all... Still Qt3 based. I've been
> > watching it in KDE SVN.
>
> > --
> > PLEASE REMOVE THIS FOOTER WHEN REPLYING & REPLY BENEATH IT!

> > Unsubscribe: ul-developer...@googlegroups.com<ul-developers%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > More options:http://groups.google.com/group/ul-developers
>
> I honestly thought taking the old pclos rpms and seeing if they can be
> re-done with the new tarballs. That would be my best idea.
>
> If I can get done with all these rebuilds, I would help out with it.
>
> @Piki, we already have qt3.

I believe PCLinuxOS have an unofficial repo of 2009 version with
kde3.5, hosted by someone on there forum, is that of any use to
someone?

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I agree that we shouldn't base our development on emotion, which is
why we shouldn't get angry over KDE 3 vs 4. What KDE4 hasn't done is
debug itself. Nepomuk isn't the only bug, a KDE4 packager should know
that. Also, does KDE4 Control Center do as much as in KDE3? If so,
show me. This simplification reminds people of the GNOME that some
people don't like. And I still don't know how to give it that
authentic KDE3 look that I have grown so accustomed to. Also, I am
familiar with KDE3 system requirements, but what of KDE4? Prove me
wrong and I will seriously consider KDE4. I am not trying to sound
stupid, just stating the facts as I see them. So I must ask that you
leave out your emotions like you are telling us and state facts that
will actually sway us. Getting mad will just offend people and push
people away from your distro because you are encouraging them to be
emotional. You have certainly offended me with your anger and
harshness.

--
Kris
"Piki"
Ark Linux Webmaster

Wannabe Unity Linux packager

[Douglas Wilson]

Clementine still needs work, but I am sure it will get there.

Doug

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[Douglas Wilson]

The problem is we are not vulcans, humans don't work on logic alone. There is something about KDE3 that I couldn't even put into words. I like KDE3 and frankly could care less if you think I'm lazy which I am not. I guess I'll just have to say some are so caught in change that they became stuck up, sorry if it makes you mad but I ain't jumping for joy at the insults hurled here.

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[Kristopher Gamrat]

I do not consider myself lazy. Think of this: if I am lazy, would I
likely be volunteering myself to packaging something that I know many
people probably want, especially considering I barely can do basic
packaging let alone handle a large number of complex packages? Think
before you speak.

[Jeremiah Summers]

Doug,
        First of all you have to understand how incredibly insluting it is to a packager to hear something needs work but it's getting there. How does it need work, what are your issues with it and why haven't you done any work to fix those issues? I have seen no bug reports or feature request on google code from you or any issue on our bug tracking system, have have you contributed? If it's snobbish for me to think instead of complain that people play an active role in developement and feedback and call people who don't but would rather complain and with things were the way they were however many years ago than than yes I am VERY snobbish and I have no issue with being that way sorry if you do. No we are not Vulcan but last I knew there wasn't a program to fix your feelings, however logically if there's features and things that are missing here in the physical world than I have no issue trying to find a way to work with you to add those and maybe then improve your feelings.

Kris,
     lazy doesn't mean you're doing nothing. However it can mean you are more willing to take the "easy road" or a way you feel you can control more decisively. Once again I question you, instead of packaging have you started out reporting bugs, maybe finding fixes for bugs that are currently in development. Have you become part of commuinty and worked to improve a project? If there are issues you currently have with KDE 4 what have you done to fix them? It's easy to take packages from PCLinuxOS, thinking everything was fine before so it will be peachy if these packages are just imported and we stay with technology that was out of date 4 years ago and is no longer properly supported.


It's fine if you want to throw KDE 3 is the repository. What's not fine or fair in any sense of the work is going off on your own to resurrect the dead to stay in the past at the expense of hard work being done now to better the future. That chokes the open source philosophy. It encourages true fragmentation and stifles development and a lot of times these attempts get weeded out quickly because the feed off of peoples sense of fear, fear of change. However there's only one thing constant in this world and that's change. You can fight it but it only hurts worse when it gets ripped from your hands. Which is going to happen with Trinity.

With Trinity you have a few people doing the development of litterally thousands. If that's not worse enough it's trash code. Code that the developers of the applications themselves threw away because it wasn't good enough, it was subpar. So now you have a few people digging through the trash and trying to build a city from it with limited time and tools at the expense of future development of a new city that could use the help to improve. That's the reason the old builders trashed it, because there was no future, it was debilitated code. That's why they basically started from scratch. Yes there are going to be people who have a hard time with the change, who may not feel right. However if they were to just get involved, to be part of the community they could benefit all, but instead they're stuck in their trash city, in the ruins of what once was. Trying to hold up the old walls of dcop and of a bygone technology that has long been extinct but still is a ghost in the hearts of those who just can't let it go.

Lazy was really a understatement and I thought before I typed it I was being nice. I didn't really consider it a insult to you but more of a dumb down version of how a really feel. I grapple with the same issues it's why I haven't released 4.5.0 yet, I am grappling with wether to be lazy and take the easy way out, staying the in past and doing what I normally would or actually pressing for an issue to get fixed. So I am not telling you this lightly. I know there's issues, I liked 3.5 also but to turn back now for me would be lazy. To disable a service because it's broke and I can't figure it out is too.

Kind Regards

Jeremiah

[Douglas Wilson]

You have seen many on the bug page about the stupid neoupuk (sp) problem, so don't sit on your high horse and tell me you seen nothing. Just because I like something doesn't mean you have to all defensive either. I thought Linux meant choice, reckon not.

Honestly everyone does not have to follow how you think or what you like

[Kristopher Gamrat]

All the bugs I have noticed in KDE4 have been filed for quite some
time, bugs which have not been fixed contrary to what people have come
to expect from the FOSS community. I have no programming skills
outside of Java, and I barely can do anything. Instead, I want to
package something that actual effort went into on my own limited time
with some serious issues I am having in the real world. Why? Because
until the KDE4 community can pull together and get bugs fixed and
missing features added back in, people are going to want to step back
until KDE4 can take us forward with actual benefit. Progress for the
sake of progress gets us nowhere, it is only progress for the benefit
of others that brings good, which is why I think KDE4 has so much
opposition from the KDE3 community. It looks fancy, but what can it do
that people want and can already do with KDE3? What can it do better?
You package it, but where is that old silvery look or expanded
KControl that I asked for on behalf of otherr? What have YOU done?

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I won't use a distro headed by a guy who has a narrow-minded one way
viewpoint. Linux comes with many different ways to do things and many
debates as such. Therefor we must approach things with an open mind
rather than all out rejecting things that other people are saying. We
must face facts without getting all angered, defensive, and emotional.
I would like to point out that I have not intentionally flamed our
closed-minded packager friend. Instead, I have stated the facts as I
see them. It is our closed-minded friend who has not practiced self
control and has flamed everyone who has tried defending KDE3. Flaming
is childish and trademark of teens. I had thought we were all adults?
So why not handle our emotions and this "debate" as such? Instead of
avoiding questions we don't know because we don't want to admit we're
wrong, let's settle on importing KDE3 and let users decide which to
use. I will continue to defend my views. It is up to our closed-minded
friend to choose whether or not to continue flaming.

[Jeremiah Summers]

I have seen nothing in our issue tracker about Clementine, I still see no issues posted about nepomuk. Any issues you've posted I have worked out with you and closed. Can you please point me to your filed bug report that I haven't? What's interesting is nepomuk has long been disabled by default in my packages (at least I thought, if I've missed something let me know by filing a bug report especially if this is something you've known about), it's located in the branding package. Strigi (which is disabled too) is mainly the issue though as it takes quite a lot of system resources to index the entire file system. It is a little crazy I get that, but it can be easily turned off in SystemSettings I apologize if that hasn't been evident if I need to improve documentation I have no issue doing that. Linux is still a choice but with every choice comes consequences good or bad. It's easy or even lazy for someone to want something for personal reasons without realizing the affect it may have on the community as a whole. Linux itself isn't truly about choice though, that's really the BSD license, so if you want to talk kernels and choice let's talk FreeBSD. The GPL really gives no choice and forces community interaction as with GPL code I have to re-release it to the community, so I guess it all depends on what choice you mean. Truly freedom comes at a cost there's not so many developers that want to code for free, those developers we need to support through the community (the whole reason Stallman pushed, actually forces community interaction) through testing there (current) code and giving feed back. That's my point, these developers in the KDE community have moved on, however instead of supporting their future efforts people have stuck themselves in the past. That doesn't seem to go over too well with some of them. Also it pulls support from current efforts to support something that has long passed. That's going to have consequences and from my view, negative consequences.

Now I said I would support KDE 3 the best I could even though I said I didn't think it was a good idea. I am indeed helping with a choice however as someone who is going to have to deal with the consquences of it being added to our repositories and the current maintaner and packager of KDE 4 I think I have every right to express my opinion, just as you have expressed yours. I can call the idea dumb and quite frankly I can call you all lazy bastards till the cows come home, you decide how you're going to take that. Obviously I stand behind opensource obviously I have quite a huge investment in all of this and obviously I have some mild intelligence about the issue. I don't care if you like me, it's not my prerogative for anyone here to like me, none of you are eating over at my house tonight to meet my lovely wife and kids. So call me every name in the book, I am most likely all those and above.

I am telling you with all I have invested in all this why I think it's not a good idea, why I am very much opposed to trinity, and why I think you should be too. If you're not you're not, but at least I am real enough to back up how I feel with actual logical arguments. In no way is that too insult you or put you down, you are who you are and I am who I am. Sorry if that doesn't mix well. However I still wish you the best.

Kind Regards

Jeremiah

[Jeremiah Summers]

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Kristopher Gamrat <piki...@gmail.com> wrote:

All the bugs I have noticed in KDE4 have been filed for quite some
time, bugs which have not been fixed contrary to what people have come
to expect from the FOSS community.

Please from the Synergy/ Unity Linux persepctive tell me what bugs (with links) you are personally experiencing. You have too realize (and you will as you package KDE 3) there are various resources out there "other than" kde main that have patches etc.. to fix bugs. However I don't not know what you're experiencing or how to make things better unless you tell me. I have gotten feedback about our version of KDE 4 from at most 5 people so really, maybe it's wrong but I just assume all is well, or hope all is well.
 

I have no programming skills
outside of Java, and I barely can do anything. Instead, I want to
package something that actual effort went into on my own limited time
with some serious issues I am having in the real world. Why? Because
until the KDE4 community can pull together and get bugs fixed and
missing features added back in, people are going to want to step back
until KDE4 can take us forward with actual benefit. Progress for the
sake of progress gets us nowhere, it is only progress for the benefit
of others that brings good, which is why I think KDE4 has so much
opposition from the KDE3 community. It looks fancy, but what can it do
that people want and can already do with KDE3? What can it do better?

DBus interaction for one, better blutooth support through bluedevil, better power support through powerdevil with suspend etc.. PulseAudio support through kmix (some don't like that, but it's there) built in compositing, true compositing. Network and hardware interaction through Solid, Semantic desktop integration, updated opengl support, better sound backend with more codecs supported through gstreamer, xine and vlc backends. Multi window tab support, it actually helps me with my work flow and on smaller devices makes windows more manageable. A Netbook Interface. The option to have a desktop without a panel, much better multiple desktop support and detection through the GUI.. etc.. etc.. etc..

You package it, but where is that old silvery look or expanded
KControl that I asked for on behalf of otherr? What have YOU done?

I personally like the only Silvery look, that's my prefernce, it's a theme. The Unity Packages actually don't offer that theme and go with a more Oxygen default looking theme. Most likely my theme will change in the near future. You may like it, you may not. Sorry. You can change it though in System Settings, like you can change any default theme in almost any DE. You can also download a ton of themes by using KHotNewStuff2 it's pretty neat. I like the default System Settings view too, you can change that also in SystemSettings. If you need a how too for any of this I will be more than willing to write one. There's a lot of good information about KDE 4 though already on the net. I have found some good stuff for people on the Arch wiki.

What have I done with KDE 4? You can check out the SVN repository. For that and if you have any questions free feel to ask.
 

[Kristopher Gamrat]

You argue logic and laziness. Is it lazy to want something that works
until KDE4 actually works? Is it logical to say that people are stupid
just because they don't like something? The reason you don't see these
issues in your bug tracker is because everyone has them, not just
Synergy. Look at the KDE4 bug tracker. You will see lots of unresolved
stuff there. This is why we want KDE3, because KDE4 isn't making REAL
progress, we can't force them to do so, and we have not the knowledge
or skills to help. We aren't hanging in the past. If it's not broke,
don't fix it. If you don't want to see that, don't bother us. We are
just blundering idiots. Flames don't teach idiots or make progress. If
you want progress, fix what's in the KDE bugtracker, add missing
features, and add something useful. But don't bother us with your
anger. If you argue logic, use logic. You are using emotion, not
logic.

[Kristopher Gamrat]

With all the problems KDE4 has, that is more patches than I should
have to apply. I can link to some of these bugs when I have actual
Internet access, but you can just as easily look at their bug tracker.
Tell me how improved bluetooth affects me when I can't afford
bluetooth? What makes PulseAudio easier to troubleshoot? I would pull
more examples if my phone allowed more text. My point is that it has
all these buggy features that would need massive amounts of patches
when KDE3 does more than what I need without the needed bug spray. And
I still don't know where these extra options in kcontrol are that KDE3
users want.

[Vaughan]

What bugs does kde4 currently have then? I am using it on a daily basis
without any problems whatsoever (I don't use nepomuk, so I can't comment
on this feature). If you find nepomuk is buggy, then just turn it off in
the control centre.... too easy..... you won't miss it at all since it
didn't even exist in kd3.

Frankly, why you guys want to bother with Trinity is beyond me. I
consider it a waste of time and resources and people should be helping
to improve KDE4 instead of raising the kde3 zombie for the grave. KDE4
is now a mature, fully functional DE and feature wise, it puts kde3 to
shame. I always found kde3 full of bugs and annoyances, so I'm happy its
been shelved. Yes, KDE4, 4.1 and 4.2 releases were not good releases and
should really have been labelled betas releases, but KDE has moved far
beyond those releases.

Look ever forward

Vaughan

[Kristopher Gamrat]

Like I said, there are plenty of bugs in the KDE bug tracker. I'm not
denying that KDE3 has bugs, but they are barely noticeable compared to
4. Also, I have already learned how to make a quick fix without the
need to look at the KDE3 source code when a problem does occur. KDE4
limits this ability. Claiming that something is better than it is also
pushes people away. I am not claiming false superiority, simply
stating that KDE4 needs work to become satisfactory for quite a few
people.

[Stumpy842]

There is an old expression "you don't beat a dead horse". IMHO KDE3.x
is dead, I would much rather spend my time and efforts working on
something with a future, and the future (right now) is KDE4.

Steve

[Kristopher Gamrat]

There is also the saying "if it's not broke don't fix it." I am not
trying to revive the dead. I am trying to give another option to
people who don't have the technical skills nor the influence to make
the KDE devs do their jobs. I came to Unity to help promote, package,
and expand the options, but apparently my services (however limited)
aren't wanted here. Again I will continue to defend my views, but
Unity ane it's branches have lost me. This isn't fair to those who
have nothing to do with this arguement, but there is nothing else I
can say.

[Stumpy842]

OK let me explain something to you, this didn't start as an argument,
you guys seem to have turned it into one though. Don't try to talk to
me about what is or is not fair, I have every right to express my
opinion on this matter, as I have above. If you don't like my opinion
that is your prerogative but trying to make up excuses to exclude
other opinions because they come from "those who have nothing to do
with this arguement" is BS. As one of the founding members of the
Unity project I have everything to do with what is done here, directly
or indirectly, and I don't appreciate your talking to me in that way,
and further to that I suggest all those who are part of this
discussion try to take the "flame" level down a bit, there is no need
to be insulting here... we're all adults aren't we?

Steve

[Jeremiah Summers]

The truth is it works for me, works great for me and work flow wise better than KDE 3.5. I understand people's objections and maybe some aren't lazy. I don't remember calling anyone really stupid though, the smartest people on the world have all be lazy at one point when it came to change. I don't think that questions anyone's intelligence however it may bias it and everyone has a bias so it's kinda a circular argument. I know for a fact though that there are bugs in Fedora that Chakra (KDE Arch) does not have, that Suse doesn't have, that Kubuntu doesn't have. You can look at their patches here:

http://chakra-project.org/svn/packages/core/

and Fedora's here:

http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/devel/

Suse is a hard one. They actually do a lot of little patches that I have used, for like wacom support or suspend support in KDM, however some of them I have had to rewrite, Back before the disk space usage warning was upstream I basically created the kde version that had no references to Suse that was a lot of changes to the cpp and .h files along with generating new files all from one patch. Also one of the hardest things about Suse is I haven't been able to find a Git, SVN or CVS repo to pull from. So basically I have to extract the spec file using cpio to ever determine if there's anything I want, then I have to make sure they're using it in a current version, if not I have to back port it it at all possible to our own. If you check the kdebase-workspace package you will see a lot of patches from Suse and in fact our whole branding scheme was base from Suse though at this point the patches and scheme has been heavily modified and rewritten. I am currently in the midst of creating a tool to help me out a bit with such cases.

I'm actually getting more involved in C++ and Qt4 programming to the point where I am able (with a lot of time) to do some pretty neat modifications to the source. I don't yet feel comfortable signing up for a reviewboard account as I think I am still pretty sloppy however I have no issues taking a stab at bugs here in our local community, having the community test and then maybe seeing what upstream thinks. This is mainly the work flow of the larger distributions. If you've read enough spec files you see patches with notes saying tested and sent upstream, than maybe in a few months that patch will go away in the the comments you may see something like Patch 100 accepted upstream dropped.

This is what I hope to become, not just a Unity Linux community developer, but a Linux community developer. My little way of giving back, this was a huge pet peave of mine when using PCLinuxOS, at least with KDE there seemed to be a lot of taking but little giving back. However with one man calling the shots I could see how there may not have been time to do to work on pushing a lot up stream. However I feel that's the part of maturing as a packager is eventually give back. So far I have push a few features, and dropped a few ideas upstream that have already been mentioned in previous emails to put the Unity Linux community on the map. Notice not the Synergy Linux Community, but Unity Linux.

So for me being very familiar with the way packaging and packages work, along with work flow with bug tracking. I can logically (I'm not seeing how it's emotion based) say you need to post your (issues YOU are having) issues to the issue tracker. At that point I as the packager will determine if it's a packaging bug or a KDE 4 bug. At which point I will determine if I can fix it. I will search first all the other distributions too see if they have a patch, most of the time they do. If they do not I will check the KDE bug tracker to see if a ticket already exists and if there's a patch to test. Than I will check the KDE commits mailing list too see if upstream has fixed the issue and back port it if so. If not I will than check the KDE 4 review board to see if it's currently being addressed, maybe even the KDE forums too see if there was a simple fix posted. IF I get nothing from any of my community resources I will track the bug down to the source myself and at that point see if I can understand what the issue is. If it's something I can fix with a simple patch, a simple C++ change, than I will. If not I will file a bug report myself if it's something I can duplicate and tack it from that point updating it's status and pushing on the kde, plasma etc.. ML for it's fix.

I don't mean to be a huge poop head here, but I really don't think you understand enough about the process to say whether or not progress is being made. As I have said before there are a lot of arm chair developers and project managers that don't seem to visit the KDE ML's, ReviewBoard, Planet KDE, or see what the latest reported bugs are and see if there's anything they can fix in JJ. It's easy to demand your issue too be fixed, too see everything from our little tiny world views. However how does your issue effect the rest of the code, is your issue really even a KDE issue or a Qt4 issue? Now it could even be a Xorg or a Cairo issue. Who knows? Do you? Have you really taken the time to find out? Maybe you have but most people don't, most people just say it's broken and then move on and judge for there on out from their tiny little world, the rest of the world. The truth of the matter is I still have a machine running KDE 2 and KDE 3, KDE is the whole reason I used Mandriva because I hated gnome in Redhat 6 and Mandrake had a awesome installer. So am I biased towards KDE.. yup very much so I will be the first to tell you GTK is ugly and the worst decision Mandrake made was to use PerlGTK, I'll get all but hurt and emotional about it too. A tear comes to my eye the time I remember the first spinning gear I saw in konqueror. However, I realize those are my bias, but for some new Linux user to come and tell me that PerlGtk blows away PyQt4 and that I should devote my time to make sure they both play well because they're going to HAVE too.. He's going to get hammered by me. However if Steve was to say (which he has) Perl is decent (ick) than I'm going to respect his point of view (but agree to disagree) with very little conversation and do what needs to be done. Kinda the same thing here, for people to come to me and basically say KDE 4 sucks, however I have not seem theme play much of an active role in troubleshooting and what I have troubleshot for them was fixed (so they don't have any excuse, because I spent hours finding patches and testing) and then they come and say the whole thing is flawed and they want to go back (kinda reminds me of some Hebrews, where's Egypt?) and going back is going to cause from my little world view more harm then good (and time wise I can prove this as it's my time that will be going in it too) than I'm obviously going to take some issue with that.

Call it emotional, call it logical, call it crazy.

I apologize to those for my craziness, I honestly try to change from time to time, I think if you really plan on doing Trinity for the long hall and you want too support it and deal with the consequences if the fork fails of working to migrate those who have come to depend on it to KDE 4 or another viable DE than go for it. From a Packager to a future packager though and because I am emotional I almost say this with tears.. It's a VERY hard task when people depend on you, especially when they decide not to speak up if they're having issues. It will be even more hard when you don't have the community support that the current KDE project has. Worst of all you'll be new at it, it's a huge pill too swallow. Can't you just package some KDE 4 packages first.. I have no issues with that. Maybe even just some wallpapers or icons, something.. You haven't even started and you're heading for volunteer burn out.

Kind regards

Jeremiah

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I have not been flaming, simply stating facts. I am the one who has
been flamed. I am not shooting down opinions. I am being attacked.
When I am being ganged up on, I have every right to talk about
fairness. I don't care even if you are Linus Torvalds, I'll just
switch back to the big bad Microsoft if I have to. The fact still
remains that KDE4 just isn't cutting it for some people and I wanted
to do something nice for them. I guess nice guys really do finish
last. Don't get the door, I'll let myself out.

[Jeremiah Summers]

Sorry you feel that way and sorry you're leaving. You can package Trinity, that's fine I'm sorry this become heated but it's a HUGE task. I really wanted you too realize how big of a task you were taking on. My heart hurts that you're leaving and quite personally I take the blame for it. Next time I will try and communicate my objections through people here who can communicate it better. I should have let Matt or someone speak for me. This is one reason I let Richard do a lot of the forum work at Synergy I am just not good expressing concerns when it comes to something I am so close too. Good luch in your future endeavors I hope to see you as a successful packager in distribution xyz, if you stay with Linux.

Kind Regards

Jeremiah

[Kristopher Gamrat]

Words don't heal my wounds. I am staying with Linux. I was using
Microsoft as an example. I am simply leaving Unity because of the
attacks. Had I known this arguement would ensue just because people
here can't have a civilized coversation over something so trivial, I'd
have not bothered with Unity. Good luck to Unity, you guys need it.

[Jeremiah Summers]

Thank you, if you decide to calm down or something changes your point of view in the near future, don't fear coming back. If you still want to package Trinity I am still willing to help and make sure from the KDE 4 perspective you'll have no issues. Don't think you'll come back, but if you do just keep that in mind. Also I don't hink you were being attacked persue. I was the harshest to you other where just voicing there opinions and I'm sure knowing your situation with the internet etc.. you have and being a new packager, the current state of KDE 3, most likely knew it was a big task and wanted to make sure you knew what you were getting into. Everyone one that express their opinion against unfortunatly have packaged some mighty large packages and weren't just talking from emotion or out their butts but from experience. Just keep that in mind with future distributions. Things can get very heated in the OpenSource world and it's even hard for me too learn to have a thick skin, but you have too if you want to continue to make a difference, that's really what it's about.

Kind Regards

Jeremiah

[Kaleb]

Kris, please don't leave, especially on the opinions of one man. I think most of us are willing to work with you when it comes to KDE3 and would like to see another DE as an option.

In all honesty, I think you only have one obstacle and that is our toolchain. I'm not sure that KDE3 will build under our toolchain.

[Stumpy842]

@Kris, OK perhaps I misconstrued what you meant when you said
"...Unity ane it's branches have lost me. This isn't fair to those who
have nothing to do with this arguement...", perhaps what you meant by
that is that your departure would not be fair to others who were not
involved in the thread. If that was your intent then I sincerely
apologize for my comments. So you see it is fairly easy to read into
something, something which isn't there and wasn't meant to be taken in
that way, I guess we are all guilty of that from time to time. I don't
want to see you leave the project either, I think we all can try to
learn to get along and respect each others' opinions and work
together.

Steve

[Douglas Wilson]

I am sorry if I made anyone mad. Mine liking KDE 3 is nothing more than nostalgia and not bugs, I am sorry. I hate change myself I have a huge OTR collection and just like old things. I been through so much change in the last 3 years after my parents passed that I  just like things that remind me of better times.

I am one of those silly people that wishes life was what it was and not what it is.

Doug

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[Stumpy842]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLsyNBnE5M ;-)

[Kristopher Gamrat]

Originally I wasn't just stating opinion. But in my leaving, you guys
now know my opinion. Telling me I am welcome here won't bring me back.
Honestly, I don't care if I am coming out as a big cry baby. I only
believe in second chances. By staying with the arguement as long as I
did I feel allowed more than that. Try to understand from my point of
view why I feel this way. In doing so keep in mind that I had no
choice in being sent to Catholic schools, the teachers didn't help
with the teasing, the Church tried to force upon me their views, I had
an abusive father, and now I am attacked for wanting to make some
packages for people who don't like KDE4.

[Jeremiah Summers]

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Douglas Wilson <hist...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am sorry if I made anyone mad. Mine liking KDE 3 is nothing more than nostalgia and not bugs, I am sorry. I hate change myself I have a huge OTR collection and just like old things. I been through so much change in the last 3 years after my parents passed that I  just like things that remind me of better times.

I am one of those silly people that wishes life was what it was and not what it is.

Doug

Ouch, I'm sorry Doug I'm sure I step on your feet a lot then. It would be neat too see KDE 3 on the repository for nostalgia reasons. I am really similar and had a hard time with KDE 4.0 4.1 and 4.2 because of that, really I started packaging KDE 4 because I wanted things fixed myself and too better understand where the developers where coming from. Why they would just abandon KDE 3. Looking at it now from a technical perspective I can see why, but you're right. Remembering KDE 2 and 3 brings back days when I had no mortgage, no real responsibilities, but finding money for college or my latest term paper. I apologize that I attacked that aspect of your personality, Trinity is a neat idea from that perspective (just hard to support from a technical one, especially for a new packager). Sorry if I crushed or impeded on that and brought you in the middle :(

Kind Regards

Jeremiah

[Kristopher Gamrat]

This reminds me of a sad but true thing I have been noticing. People
involved with a project will argue and insult people with different
views. It is only when someone says "I'm leaving" that people start
feeling bad. If nobody leaves, they will continue to beat each other
to a pulp over something trivial. I have been beaten down enough
throughout my life, and in leaving I am hoping to ensure that I have a
life.

[Douglas Wilson]

I should have clarified better in m original email. That is one of my biggest problems is I don't clarify enough, I agree it would be hard to support.

Doug

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[Stumpy842]

Kris I'm sure you have had some bad experiences in life so far, but
surely we cannot be held accountable for those... and I really think
your perception that this thread was an attack against you is
overblown, but again that's just my opinion. Perhaps Jeremiah was hard
on you but you're not alone in that, he is hard on everyone from time
to time, it's his nature. But it is also his nature to eventually calm
down and be rational about things, so if you would think over your
decision to leave it would make us all happier. I'm not trying to sway
you further one way or the other after this, I'm just saying take some
time to think about it...

Steve

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I am not holding you guys accountable fo the bad things in my life. I
was pointing out some of the stuff that has influenced my decision. I
do not feel I have "peceived" this as an attack, I truely feel that I
was attacked. I do not accept excuses for other peoples behavior, and
"it's his nature" looks like an excuse. One of my favorite sayings is
"Don't make excuses, make improvements."

[David Smid]

Dne 15.8.2010 23:17, Kristopher Gamrat napsal(a):

> I am not holding you guys accountable fo the bad things in my life. I
> was pointing out some of the stuff that has influenced my decision. I
> do not feel I have "peceived" this as an attack, I truely feel that I
> was attacked. I do not accept excuses for other peoples behavior, and
> "it's his nature" looks like an excuse. One of my favorite sayings is
> "Don't make excuses, make improvements."
>

Maybe I shouldn't pour oil on the fire, nevertheless this smells like emotional
blackmail to me. Very immature, very manipulative.
I'm sorry you're leaving but be prepared that such attitude won't stop others
from 'attacking' you. People just have the right to disagree with you. They can
even be rude sometimes and also remember that different cultures have different
limits for offense. Therefore it's very helpful to talk and talk and talk and to
clarify words and their meanings, to apologize and accept apologies and to seek
reconciliation.
People here come from different backgrounds, have different opinions and
preferences and still they are able to cooperate and create a wonderful OS. I
think occasional disputes are natural part of the process.

David

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I am not trying to manipulate or blackmail. I understand that people
have different opinions, but I will not allow people to force those
opinions onto me, nor will I work with people who attack me for my
opinion. I don't mind friendly debate, but to aim a flame thrower in
my direction is unacceptable. This is why I am leaving. If this is
manipulative blackmail, then I must really be a bad person who should
go to jail because blackmail is illegal here.

[Matthew Dawkins]

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Kris calm down. I haven't followed this thread, b/c I thought it was clear you were gonna work on it. Personally, this distro has always been about who got what done and not what one said. IMHO there's too little time to get upset over words.

Honestly, I think now the trinity project IS a waste of time, but I think if you are dedicated to make it work, then let it be. Also, others seem to be fond of the idea, so I'm always about options.

Anyways, you are always welcome as a member hear.

[Thomas Fröhlich]

2010/8/16 Matthew Dawkins <matt...@gmail.com>

Kris i don't know exact was executed in the past.
But i think i know the feeling of your.
Just to inform you, i also have a plan of a remaster or personal build to a distribution, but i see the works of peoples
such Paul, Steve and Matthew and Gettinther and many others here, so feel me free to stay (let's go) to backstage
my personal ideas to bring my helps (yes i hope i have so it's) into a good company of friendly members they
are more knowing than a single can.
What i will say, if all making a step backward from personal ideas and going to understand the fact's of the others,
then we all can doing more as with a new one of 100x distros.
I hope you will not killing me now, please probing a view of all they problems are posted here before from a other side,
not just from your side.
Hope you can find a other way for your dream, also if this way should be a bit longer than from today up to tomorrow.
Trust me, my situation is not the same by your, but i feel if  frustration are bigger than a cool head.
Regards

[Kristopher Gamrat]

Why are we still beating the dead horse? I am leaving. End of story. I
will be unsubscribing from the ML once I can get access to a computer
with Internet access. Yes, we should be about who did what, but the
fact still remains that when people feel attacked they will leave and
won't calm down just because someone says so. Everywhere I go, people
shoot down my ideas and opinions as a "waste of time" or worse, then I
look like the bad guy when I try to defend. This is no different. The
dead horse suffered enough and deserves a proper burial, so quit
trying to beat the s**t out of it.

[Thomas Fröhlich]

2010/8/16 Kristopher Gamrat <piki...@gmail.com>

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You have a other native language?  German or Vietnames??? just for better understanding the story for me?

[Kristopher Gamrat]

Unfortunately no.

[Thomas Fröhlich]

2010/8/16 Kristopher Gamrat <piki...@gmail.com>

Unfortunately no.

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OK, so i suggest you, sleep one night over this and let it begin in new / other way to suggesting it for here.
Head up
Greetings

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I don't sleep well and often wake up with a heavier head than when I
went to bed with. It takes a few hours to clear my head and think
straight. I rarely go on forums or chat rooms or check email until I
am thinking straight for the day. Everything I have said in this
thread has been on an alert mind.

[Chris Evans]

---

From: Thomas Fröhlich <oh.q...@googlemail.com>
To: ul-dev...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 4:01:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ul-developers] Importing Trinity KDE3

--
And so ends another exciting episode of Days of Our KDE4 Lives. Tune in tomorrow to see if they will make up or break up, will Matt finally unveil that he is in actuality a cross-dressing midgit? And the triumphant return of Gettinther from the Amazon jungle prison of death! Stay tuned!!!!

[Stumpy842]

Um, it's midget, not midgit... Yeah I know, I wasn't gonna do it but I
figured, what's a truly hosed-up thread without a Spelling Cop, lol...
;-)

[Matthew Dawkins]

LMAO, you all found me out. Damn Steve I can spell worth a damn eiver

[Kristopher Gamrat]

Our star, Piki, got hit by a truck this morning while walking to work.
He was killed instantly and will not be appearing on the next episode.
While his spirit will not be haunting here but will continue to
support other F\OSS projects, in a spiritual way of course.

[Matthew Dawkins]

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Is that like when Obi Wan and the others come back as ghosts at the party at the end of the return of the jedi?

If I'm the vertically challenged one, then Yoda I must be. :D

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I don't watch Space Trek or whatever it's called.

[Jeremiah Summers]

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Kristopher Gamrat <piki...@gmail.com> wrote:

I won't use a distro headed by a guy who has a narrow-minded one way
viewpoint.

It's not at all headed by me, don't let my views effect your own position. I just do a very small prt called KDE 4, however that part is going to be greatly affected by the integration of KDE 3 in our repository. So I want to make sure this is more than just a learning project and that the consequences of trinity alone being support is seen at the community level as well as the Unity level. That it's well thought out despite how anyone may feel.
 

Linux comes with many different ways to do things and many
debates as such. Therefor we must approach things with an open mind
rather than all out rejecting things that other people are saying.

Yeah don't give me the open mind argument. Do you have an open mind when it comes to murder? There are some things to some people, especially with a heavy investment that are black and white. This is a black and white issue for me. I am most likely the one here who is going to be most affected. I have already expressed once you get going and this become something more than just a heated conversation that I will support your effort and see what I can do despite how I feel. For me that's huge and it's going to be a lot of work for me, not just you. I am scared that this will just add more packages to watch and maintain that we don't have the resources to do if people become dependent on it. Obviously some have expressed they would. It's a HUGE project to take on for someone who doesn't know packaging. I would like too encourage you though to package, to learn and to grow that's really the only reason once you get something going I would try my best to make sure I'm looking out for you in my packages placing in the proper conflicts and testing parallel installs to give you the feedback you need as well.
 

We must face facts without getting all angered, defensive, and emotional.

That's impossible as we are human. If I'm not getting defensive about something I have put a lot of time and energy into when I feel it might be getting threatened to even a small degree than I would truly be as referenced before a vulcan.

I would like to point out that I have not intentionally flamed our
closed-minded packager friend.

I am just as close minded as you are. We're just fighting for opposite areas. Really we have a lot in common when it comes to close mindness. You want to hold on to your ideas and I want to hold on too mine. However I have a lot invested in mine, you do not ... yet. I'm kinda hoping you will. Then you'll understand. Maybe still not agree, but at least understand.
 

Instead, I have stated the facts as I
see them. It is our closed-minded friend who has not practiced self
control and has flamed everyone who has tried defending KDE3. Flaming
is childish and trademark of teens. I had thought we were all adults?

Nope I am still a teen, married with kids. I'm not all that mature and I have never claimed to be. I am quite emotional and defensive too, on a good day. I suffer from foot in mouth syndrome which I have found now cure for as even with a foot in my mouth I can use sign language. The issue is, I could careless. Like others who are in denial about there maturity, I will be the first to say I am not. I will flame you if I think you have no clue what you're talking about and there's a pretty high chance you're going to make my life harder. Call it tough love or just call it being a jerk, or immature, or whatever you want I really don't care.
 

So why not handle our emotions and this "debate" as such? Instead of
avoiding questions we don't know because we don't want to admit we're
wrong, let's settle on importing KDE3 and let users decide which to
use.

What Questions don't I know. I knew Trinity was based on Qt3 you opened the conversation saying it was based on Qt4 and that you were going to package it. It would seem you would have done a little bit more research before posting to the ML that you were going to support thousands of packages what they were based on. I don't mean to be a jerk ( I am naturally ) but uh, that was kinda a red flag for me. Especially since once again that's going to effect how I package KDE 4 and what conflicts I put in my spec files. So if there's something you want me to admit I was wrong about than by all means prove your point with resources and blow me out of the water here, but your opening wasn't impressive and still isn't. Just kinda a close minded friend to another suggestion.

I will continue to defend my views. It is up to our closed-minded
friend to choose whether or not to continue flaming.

Yep I will. I have actually referenced my points for my view pretty much in one link from someone who actually coded KDE 3 I am still waiting on yours. Let me give you some advice though, take it or not. I would go outside of Pearson 

--
Kris
"Piki"
Ark Linux Webmaster
Wannabe Unity Linux packager

Kris we can go at this a few ways,

1. You can be happy with my reply (or not) and decide to package Trinity, Yay! Good luck. At that point you can let me know in a few days, weeks, months, years, when I will start seeing conflicts with your packages. I will then do the proper steps to make sure I update my spec files and test for you.

2. You can get offended and leave, at which I will think it was just an excuse because you noticed the overwhelming work you're going to have to do and maybe suddenly remembered how crappy KDE 3.5 was. I will then blame myself a little bit for being a jerk, but sleep well knowing I won't have to do any extra work updating KDE 4 packages.

3. You can try and be nice to me, at which point I will help you out the best I can, maybe providing a few scripts I have if you need them or want them. However you have to remember I am immature and will be a little grouchy on the day I have to test rebuild all my packages. You will also have to remember I am prideful a jerk, a know it all and pretty much everything else you most likely don't like in a person. However I have no issue agreeing to disagree and moving on do you?

4. Enter your way here... no guarantee I will take the time to read it though.

Kind Regards

Jeremiah

[Vaughan]

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Jeremiah Summers <jmia...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kris we can go at this a few ways,

1. You can be happy with my reply (or not) and decide to package Trinity, Yay! Good luck. At that point you can let me know in a few days, weeks, months, years, when I will start seeing conflicts with your packages. I will then do the proper steps to make sure I update my spec files and test for you.

2. You can get offended and leave, at which I will think it was just an excuse because you noticed the overwhelming work you're going to have to do and maybe suddenly remembered how crappy KDE 3.5 was. I will then blame myself a little bit for being a jerk, but sleep well knowing I won't have to do any extra work updating KDE 4 packages.

3. You can try and be nice to me, at which point I will help you out the best I can, maybe providing a few scripts I have if you need them or want them. However you have to remember I am immature and will be a little grouchy on the day I have to test rebuild all my packages. You will also have to remember I am prideful a jerk, a know it all and pretty much everything else you most likely don't like in a person. However I have no issue agreeing to disagree and moving on do you?

4. Enter your way here... no guarantee I will take the time to read it though.

Kind Regards

Jeremiah

Hi Jeremiah

Please don't waste time with anything Trinity related, as you have enough on your plate already with kde4 (which is a huge project to maintain as it is). If someone else wants to package it and deal with all the headaches, so be it, but I think it should be done in such a way that it won't interfere (ie no conflicts) with kde4 in any way, shape or form (if thats at all possible).

I don't want to see another one of us suffer burn out as many of us have done in the past. Thanks for all your hard work at providing me with KDE4 goodness :-)

Cheers!
Vaughan

[Jeremiah Summers]

On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 6:03 AM, Vaughan <vau...@unity-linux.org> wrote:

Hi Jeremiah

Please don't waste time with anything Trinity related, as you have enough on your plate already with kde4 (which is a huge project to maintain as it is). If someone else wants to package it and deal with all the headaches, so be it, but I think it should be done in such a way that it won't interfere (ie no conflicts) with kde4 in any way, shape or form (if thats at all possible).

I don't want to see another one of us suffer burn out as many of us have done in the past. Thanks for all your hard work at providing me with KDE4 goodness :-)

Cheers!
Vaughan

Unless you know of a way to do it, I'm not sure there is a way KDE 3 can be packaged to not conflict. It's something that (if) whoever decides to package Trinity we'll have to look into. I know for a fact that I  took the time to remove the older KDE 3 conflicts from the specs when I had originally imported the 4.3.7x packages when I first start working on it as I thought KDE 3 was dead and gone. I think Mandriva has started to do the same, so I don't know if there's any going back other than just sitting down and testing them myself and making sure. If someone does decide to package it and take the time to maintain it then it's going to be a pretty large project I think a lot of help will be needed, more than what I can just offer. As it is I don't keep up on packages (Clemetine, Thanks Again, I love seeing your name in the changelog) like I should and despite the previous opinions about KDE 4 and bug patches there's maybe a total of 10 patches that fix bugs in the kdebase packages, the rest is all added features and branding. For me it's obvious why because every 4.5.x release is a bug fix release and those appear every month or so. So unless something is reported to me than I lately I've been getting preoccupied with Synergy, even more lately with the current demise of my build server. So you're right I have a lot on my plate, but I would still support someone's efforts despite my own personal issues with Trinity, I may do it a little begrudgingly, which I'm sure by now is obvious ;)

Jeremiah

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I don't see the relation between murder and Linux. Do you think I'd be
using Linux if I didn't have an open mind or would I still be staring
blankly at a BSOD on a 2003 Dell laptop? And who is the one who
insisted he was using logic and not emotion in the first place? It
took ages to get you to answer the theming question, and as per the
kcontrol issue all you said was how to change the view, not get the
extra options. As per the being based Qt4 thing, I haven't pushed
that. I do remember hearing that they'd be rewriting for Qt4 though. I
have referenced the whole bug issue, look in their bug tracker. And
don't think I missed your trick: I stay and package KDE3 and feel bad
for your extra work or I leave in shame. I choose to leave in pride to
contribute to a project that cares. If no such distro exists I'll
start my own and (hopefully) release in a few months/yearr/whatever it
takes. I have already did the horses burial rites, why can't you?

[Matthew Dawkins]

--
PLEASE REMOVE THIS FOOTER WHEN REPLYING & REPLY BENEATH IT!
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You can be Hans Solo Piki. B/c you just don't give up. I like that, but i'm also jealous b/c that means you get princess leia.... I really wanted to be R2D2, damn you zerokool!!!!

[Jeremiah Summers]

Beings I wasn't even talking to you, I was addressing Vaughn, You were leaving right? Didn't you say that two days ago. Either get over it and move on or move onto some place else. You have removed yourself form the distribution and therefore the conversation. If you would like to change that please address that. This conversation is over, unless you plan on actually doing what you said in the beginning or leaving. Have a nice life. Would you like me to remove you from the list or will you be kind enough to do it yourself. At the very least stand behind what you say and make a choice. Thanks

Jeremiah

[Kristopher Gamrat]

You sure did a good job at fooling me. I said I'd be leaving. I also
said that I would stand up for my views and that I'd remove myself
when I gained access to a computer with Internet (which hasn't
happened yet). You just don't want me to prove you wrong. Get over
yourself. Your attitude is what pushed me to leave in the first place.

[Kaleb]

Kristopher, Jmiahman, stop it or I'll silence you both. [Gets out wet noodle.] This conversation has degenerated well past the point of no purpose.

[Kristopher Gamrat]

I agree, which is why I've been trying to end it. However, I will
continue defending my views in case of reply.

[Kaleb]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Kristopher Gamrat <piki...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree, which is why I've been trying to end it. However, I will
continue defending my views in case of reply.

How about I take you off this list and we agree that this thread comes to an end?

[Jeremiah Summers]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Kaleb <djj...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kristopher, Jmiahman, stop it or I'll silence you both. [Gets out wet noodle.] This conversation has degenerated well past the point of no purpose.

Kaleb,
          Okay sorry.. I have wetnoodifobia, just keep that thing away from me ;)

Jeremiah

[spiralofhope]

One small very late comment to Piki.

While you have felt attacked in this thread, keep in mind a few things:

1) Others will always have different perspective than you, with
different preferences and different logic. (both "right" and "wrong",
whatever those mean)

2) They feel strongly enough about their own perspective that they're
trying to persuade you to change yours. (not always done diplomatically)

3) Most importantly, they feel you have abilities and potential which
they think are better spent on the things they want in the world.
(unintentionally selfish)

If you take away one thing from this experience, take away #3. There
is heat in the discussion because your ability and potential is
understood.

Some people get really worked up when (they feel) they've found yet
another potential Rembrandt finger painting. It's natural.

- spiral

PS, aloha!

[Stumpy842]

SOH good to see ya, how have you been?

[spiralofhope]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:14:17 -0400
Stumpy842 <stum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> SOH good to see ya, how have you been?

Good and bad. About to move yet again, so hopefully after that I can
take a look at life and get some stuff done again.

Grats on the release.. I've been using it through the release
candidates.. looking good!