DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration
Grunff
As some of you will remember, I currently host the DIY FAQ and Wiki. The
server they are currently on needs to undergo some maintenance, and as
such I need to migrate both sites to a new server.
The FAQ is easy - it's small, and takes no time at all.
The Wiki is a monster - the database alone is over 400Mb, plus another
few hundred Mb in image files.
I'd like to get the migration done this weekend. To this end, I request
that no changes are made to the sites (including adding/editing Wiki
content) from tonight until Monday night. Any changes made will be lost!
I've emailed Phil about this, and he's ready to repoint the domains as
soon as I'm done.
I hope this doesn't inconvenience anyone, and expect normal service to
be resumed shortly. No site downtime is anticipated. I will post a
notice on this thread once the migration is complete.
--
Grunff
meow...@care2.com
> Hi all,
>
> As some of you will remember, I currently host the DIY FAQ and Wiki. The
> server they are currently on needs to undergo some maintenance, and as
> such I need to migrate both sites to a new server.
>
> The FAQ is easy - it's small, and takes no time at all.
>
> The Wiki is a monster - the database alone is over 400Mb, plus another
> few hundred Mb in image files.
>
> I'd like to get the migration done this weekend. To this end, I request
> that no changes are made to the sites (including adding/editing Wiki
> content) from tonight until Monday night.
Maybe I'll get some sleep then :)
NT
Grunff
> I hope this doesn't inconvenience anyone, and expect normal service to
> be resumed shortly. No site downtime is anticipated. I will post a
> notice on this thread once the migration is complete.
Ok, this is now done.
I've deleted a handful of records which were just enormous, and
contained almost nothing but spam.
If anyone notices anything important missing, or anything not working
correctly, do let me know. As always, the email address is valid.
--
Grunff
Phil Addison
wrote:
> Subject: DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration
[Was: DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration]
I haven't been around for a while to do anything to the FAQ due to
family commitments, and wonder if its time for the FAQ to be integrated
into the Wiki somehow? Is that practical and does anyone feel like doing
it? - I can't see me being able to do it in the near future. In fact is
there anyone willing to take on the FAQ editing/maintenance task too?
The Wiki has got some good stuff in it now, but I see a problem in that
although one can find articles by searching, there is no mechanism for
browsing it in a structured way. To answer the question "What is in the
Wiki?" one has to visit every article in the contents list (actually
just an index) which itself is well hidden under "See Also" at the very
bottom of the Main Page. I know non-structuredness is inherent in Wikis,
but wouldn't it be possible to construct a structured Main Page
consisting of a hierarchical list containing links pointing to the
existing articles?
This would make the Wiki more accessible to those that don't have an
immediate DIY task to search for, but want to browse for inspiration.
There is an old suggestion for a structure at
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.doc
Phil
(sometime) FAQ Editor
Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me
Andrew Gabriel
Phil Addison <edi...@diyfaq.org.uk> writes:
>
> [Was: DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration]
>
> I haven't been around for a while to do anything to the FAQ due to
> family commitments, and wonder if its time for the FAQ to be integrated
> into the Wiki somehow? Is that practical and does anyone feel like doing
You can't just fold it in - only the copyright owners can do that
as only they can change their copyright assignments to be suitable
for Wiki use.
> it? - I can't see me being able to do it in the near future. In fact is
> there anyone willing to take on the FAQ editing/maintenance task too?
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Phil Addison
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
> In article <24a4a411eav3pbsub...@4ax.com>,
> Phil Addison <edi...@diyfaq.org.uk> writes:
> >
> > [Was: DIY FAQ & Wiki - hosting migration]
> >
> > I haven't been around for a while to do anything to the FAQ due to
> > family commitments, and wonder if its time for the FAQ to be integrated
> > into the Wiki somehow? Is that practical and does anyone feel like doing
>
> You can't just fold it in - only the copyright owners can do that
> as only they can change their copyright assignments to be suitable
> for Wiki use.
The Wiki is held within the FAQ domain (diyfaq.org.uk), and the authors
have given over control to whoever maintains the FAQ - and in this case
there would be multiple maintainers, or you could consider it
self-maintaining (c.f. Faq-O-matic).
The FAQ has already changed from its original format of a linear
newsgroup posting to a re-edited website format. Is moving it to the
Wiki so different? It's certainly worth asking the original authors if
they have any objections though.
But first we need someone able to take on the task.
> > it? - I can't see me being able to do it in the near future. In fact is
> > there anyone willing to take on the FAQ editing/maintenance task too?
Phil
George (dicegeorge)
but the wiki could have links to individual pages in the faq without
violating copyright...
(please (maybe after the weekend maintenance)
remind us all of where the faq and wiki and google newsgroup archives are!)
[george]
Owain
> The Wiki has got some good stuff in it now, but I see a problem in that
> although one can find articles by searching, there is no mechanism for
> browsing it in a structured way. To answer the question "What is in the
> Wiki?" one has to visit every article in the contents list (actually
> just an index) which itself is well hidden under "See Also" at the very
> bottom of the Main Page. I know non-structuredness is inherent in Wikis,
> but wouldn't it be possible to construct a structured Main Page
> consisting of a hierarchical list containing links pointing to the
> existing articles?
There is a Categories page at
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Special:Categories
it might be made more prominent on the entry page though.
Owain
Phil Addison
Its not structured though
> it might be made more prominent on the entry page though.
Yes
Phil
Phil Addison
<diceg...@xxxhotmail.com> wrote:
> (please (maybe after the weekend maintenance)
> remind us all of where the faq and wiki and google newsgroup archives are!)
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.d-i-y/topics
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search
Phil
Grunff
> Its not structured though
As I've said before, I agree with Phil about this - I don't like the
lack of hierarchy in wikis. However, since the whole world seems to
disagree with me on this, and everyone seems to love wikis despite their
complete lack of structure, who am I to argue ;-)
--
Grunff
Dave Liquorice
>> Its not structured though
>
> As I've said before, I agree with Phil about this - I don't like the
> lack of hierarchy in wikis.
That is up to the people who manage the wiki, it's quite possible to have
a decent hierarchy with the use of categories and sub categories.
Take a look at http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Main_Page for
one with some semblance of order. (I do try an maintain that one).
--
Cheers
Dave.
Phil Addison
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:12:40 +0100, Grunff wrote:
>
> Phil Addison wrote:
>
> >> Its not structured though
> >
> > As I've said before, I agree with Phil about this - I don't like the
> > lack of hierarchy in wikis.
>
> That is up to the people who manage the wiki, it's quite possible to have
> a decent hierarchy with the use of categories and sub categories.
>
> Take a look at http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Main_Page for
> one with some semblance of order. (I do try an maintain that one).
That's encouraging; and it does seem to give an approximation to a
structured look, though as far as I can tell your Wiki only has
sub-categories in the equipment section. Do you know if its possible to
make a sub-category list appear nested inside the parent category list,
and on the same page' as opposed to a separate page as both yours and
'ours' do?
(BTW Dave, it took me a while to realize your Wiki has nothing to do
with Irritable Bowel Syndrome!!)
To the actual authors of the DIY Wiki, do you have an opinion on this?
Phil
Dave Liquorice
> That's encouraging; and it does seem to give an approximation to a
> structured look, though as far as I can tell your Wiki only has
> sub-categories in the equipment section.
Yes that is correct, but illustrates what can be done. Looking at the
great long "Technical" category that could do with some sub-categories.
> Do you know if its possible to make a sub-category list appear nested
> inside the parent category list, and on the same page' as opposed to a
> separate page as both yours and 'ours' do?
Not quite sure I follow what you are asking. The category list that is
displayed at the top each category page in the IBSFaq wiki and on the main
page comes from a template and is hard coded. I could hard code the
sub-categories into that list.
I don't know of an automagic way of generating the category list for
display in a page. The special page "Categories" just lists them all
without paying attention to any arbitary parent/child relationships.
> (BTW Dave, it took me a while to realize your Wiki has nothing to do
> with Irritable Bowel Syndrome!!)
It's not my wiki but that of the Institute of Broadcast Sound, I just help
maintain it. If you forget the .uk you end up with the International Bible
Society...
--
Cheers
Dave.
Grunff
> That is up to the people who manage the wiki, it's quite possible to have
> a decent hierarchy with the use of categories and sub categories.
>
> Take a look at http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Main_Page for
> one with some semblance of order. (I do try an maintain that one).
While you've made a good navigational structure for the data within your
wiki (well done!), the fact remains that the way the data is stored is
inherently non-hirerarchical. There are no fixed relationships between
categories and articles other than those you have created in the
navigation system.
This goes against everything I know about data management, which is why
I dislike wikis.
--
Grunff
Dave Liquorice
> While you've made a good navigational structure for the data within your
> wiki (well done!), the fact remains that the way the data is stored is
> inherently non-hirerarchical. There are no fixed relationships between
> categories and articles other than those you have created in the
> navigation system.
Thank you and yes I agree there is nothing in the actual, under the hood,
wiki database that links anything to anything else except when it is
included in the navigation. This makes a wiki rather powerful and as
always with power comes responsibilty to use that power wisely.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Grunff
> Thank you and yes I agree there is nothing in the actual, under the hood,
> wiki database that links anything to anything else except when it is
> included in the navigation. This makes a wiki rather powerful and as
> always with power comes responsibilty to use that power wisely.
It certainly makes a wiki flexible, but it also creates a huge amount of
extra work, required to achieve any semblance of a hierarchy.
Wikis offer the most flexible type of index, which is why people love
them. I just like my information to have a built-in level of
organisation, even if it means imposing some limitations :-)
--
Grunff
Phil Addison
wrote:
> Dave Liquorice wrote:
Hmmm... sounds as if there could be a parallel scheme, with a nice neat
hierarchical structure, and drawing its content from the Wiki articles,
either by snapshot imports or by simply linking to them. It could be
called The uk.d-i-y FAQ. Just needs a volunteer! ;)
Phil <G>
meow...@care2.com
Lack of volunteers is the prime point imho. We could come up with a
scheme, but so far no-one has volunteered to do it. IIRC we only have
2 multiple article contributors so far.
Putting a traditional heirarchical structure on the wiki is I think so
fraught with issues its hardly worth considering, but I do agree that
some means to make it easier to find articles would be a big step
forward.
I also think there's a very simple solution. Its one I was going to
propose earlier, but there's just one detail I hadnt yet figured out.
The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it
something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents
page, this one:
http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Special:Allpages
So when someone clicks on or links to 'Main page', that contents page
shows up.
Now I'm certainly not going to pretend this is the perfect answer -
there's no heirarchy or organisation, but it does seem to answer every
other requirement.
* Its easily implemented
* The page automatically updates itself as new articles appear, no
ongoing maintennace work is needed
* People have a single introductory point that shows them all the
articles on the wiki, and which they can search for keywords if they
wish
* People tend to click on 'main page,' so its the perfect place to put
this introduction to the wiki.
And finally bear in mind that altho some would like more structure,
reality is there is no such structure to be found anywhere on the
wiki, and I'm doubtful that someone will come along and
a) create it
b) maintain it indefinitely
With so few contriobutors I think any solution would have to be easy
to implement and maintenance free. This idea is, and it does the job,
albeit not as neatly as some might like.
The one q I didnt figure out was what article name to call the current
content of 'Main page'
Regards, NT
Phil Addison
wrote:
Someone taking the trouble to come up with a parallel mechanism as
suggested above, or any other hierarchical access scheme, is IMHO vital
for the long term success of the project. Without it, the wiki can be in
danger of becoming swamped by a mish-mash of random short articles.
Nobody has to publicly 'volunteer', but is welcome to try out ideas
behind the scenes in the beta area of the FAQ - just contact me; address
is valid.
> I also think there's a very simple solution. Its one I was going to
> propose earlier, but there's just one detail I hadnt yet figured out.
> The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it
> something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents
> page, this one:
> http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Special:Allpages
> So when someone clicks on or links to 'Main page', that contents page
> shows up.
That's not what I understand as a Contents Page; it is an alphabetical
index, and perversly sorted by rows instead of columns. Nevertheless,
just doing that would make the wiki content a lot more accesible to
first time visitors, many of whom must be frightened away by the
existing entry page. As I said before, the wiki is fine for those
searching for a keyword but hopeless for the curious just wondering what
sort of stuff is in it.
> Now I'm certainly not going to pretend this is the perfect answer -
> there's no heirarchy or organisation,
... which is its key problem!
> but it does seem to answer every
> other requirement.
> * Its easily implemented
> * The page automatically updates itself as new articles appear, no
> ongoing maintennace work is needed
> * People have a single introductory point that shows them all the
> articles on the wiki, and which they can search for keywords if they
> wish
> * People tend to click on 'main page,' so its the perfect place to put
> this introduction to the wiki.
Yes, yes, and yes. Go for it!!
> And finally bear in mind that altho some would like more structure,
> reality is there is no such structure to be found anywhere on the
> wiki, and
> I'm doubtful that someone will come along
You never can tell.
> and
> a) create it
> b) maintain it indefinitely
These are two separately do-able tasks. Lets try to be positive, not put
off any potential helpers.
> With so few contriobutors I think any solution would have to be easy
> to implement and maintenance free. This idea is, and it does the job,
> albeit not as neatly as some might like.
Go for it!! Any improvement in accessibiliity will lead to more readers;
Some will turn into contributors, and maybe one of them will tackle a
parallel hierarchical access scheme.
> The one q I didnt figure out was what article name to call the current
> content of 'Main page'
"About this Wiki", or even "Obsolete"? :)
Thanks for your thoughtfull respose.
Phil
Dave Liquorice
> Putting a traditional heirarchical structure on the wiki is I think so
> fraught with issues its hardly worth considering, but I do agree that
> some means to make it easier to find articles would be a big step
> forward.
It's not that difficult to add [[Category:Tools]] to the bottom of an
article about SDS Drills for example or [[Category:Electrical]] to one
about wiring a plug.
Then construct a template with all the top level categories in it for
display on the "main page" and at the top of each category listing page
(these are built automagically and include sub-category listings).
Most of the automatic pages aren't really much use like the Allpages or
Categories one, the latter because it treats all categories as being at
the same level.
> The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it
> something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents
> page, this one:
> http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Special:Allpages
No the default "main page" needs to tell the user what the wiki is about
and then lead them to indexes and/or search methods.
> * People tend to click on 'main page,' so its the perfect place to put
> this introduction to the wiki.
But it's not an "introduction" it's just a list of articles. Nothing about
why or where those articals have come from.
>I'm doubtful that someone will come along and
> a) create it
> b) maintain it indefinitely
The basics appears to be there already, it just needs some sorting out.
The 50 odd categories just need something (a template?) to bring them into
a more manageable/structred list form for display. The main categories
Plumbing, Heating, Electrics, Lighting, Building etc already exist.
--
Cheers
Dave.
meow...@care2.com
wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:57:22 -0700 (PDT), meow2...@care2.com wrote:
> > Putting a traditional heirarchical structure on the wiki is I think so
> > fraught with issues its hardly worth considering, but I do agree that
> > some means to make it easier to find articles would be a big step
> > forward.
>
> It's not that difficult to add [[Category:Tools]] to the bottom of an
> article about SDS Drills for example or [[Category:Electrical]] to one
> about wiring a plug.
>
> Then construct a template with all the top level categories in it for
> display on the "main page" and at the top of each category listing page
> (these are built automagically and include sub-category listings).
>
> Most of the automatic pages aren't really much use like the Allpages or
> Categories one, the latter because it treats all categories as being at
> the same level.
>
> > The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it
> > something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents
> > page, this one:
> >http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Special:Allpages
>
> No the default "main page" needs to tell the user what the wiki is about
> and then lead them to indexes and/or search methods.
I think the contents page gets that message across more or less
instantly.
> > * People tend to click on 'main page,' so its the perfect place to put
> > this introduction to the wiki.
>
> But it's not an "introduction" it's just a list of articles. Nothing about
> why or where those articals have come from.
I'm unsure why you think that imoprtant to a first time visitor. Task
number 1 is always for them to be able to read whatever article they
want - a list of all the articles does that - as would your list of
categories.
If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a
wiki article, I want to read the article. Anything else is just waffle
to me at that point - certainly it has its place, but its not what I
want to read first, and if an article listed on the front page
addresses what the wiki's about I can read it when I want to -
probably after I've got the diy job done that I'm halfway through.
> >I'm doubtful that someone will come along and
> > a) create it
> > b) maintain it indefinitely
>
> The basics appears to be there already, it just needs some sorting out.
> The 50 odd categories just need something (a template?) to bring them into
> a more manageable/structred list form for display. The main categories
> Plumbing, Heating, Electrics, Lighting, Building etc already exist.
No-one is currently doing what you two want, but I daresay it will
happen. Hence I propose to make the main page article redirect to the
contents page as an improvement-for-now move, and we can await the
appearance of a more structured option.
NT
Phil Addison
wrote:
> On Aug 15, 12:18 pm, "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsnotthis...@howhill.com>
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:57:22 -0700 (PDT), meow2...@care2.com wrote:
> > > The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it
> > > something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents
> > > page, this one:
> > >http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Special:Allpages
> >
> > No the default "main page" needs to tell the user what the wiki is about
> > and then lead them to indexes and/or search methods.
> > But it's not an "introduction" it's just a list of articles. Nothing about
> > why or where those articals have come from.
>
> I'm unsure why you think that imoprtant to a first time visitor. Task
> number 1 is always for them to be able to read whatever article they
> want - a list of all the articles does that - as would your list of
> categories.
*some* people go to an information source to look something up; many
others go there to learn about the whole subject, or to find out what
the subject encompasses. E.g. "I've just bought a house, I want to look
into this DIY lark I've heard about".
> If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a
> wiki article, I want to read the article.
Obviously!!
> Anything else is just waffle
> to me at that point - certainly it has its place, but its not what I
> want to read first, and if an article listed on the front page
> addresses what the wiki's about I can read it when I want to -
> probably after I've got the diy job done that I'm halfway through.
As a specialist contributor, you appear to be seeing it from that POV;
step back and think about the needs of the wider readership.
> > The basics appears to be there already, it just needs some sorting out.
> > The 50 odd categories just need something (a template?) to bring them into
> > a more manageable/structred list form for display. The main categories
> > Plumbing, Heating, Electrics, Lighting, Building etc already exist.
>
> No-one is currently doing what you two want, but I daresay it will
> happen. Hence I propose to make the main page article redirect to the
> contents page as an improvement-for-now move, and we can await the
> appearance of a more structured option.
No, the main page needs to remain as an introduction as Dave L
describes, but it needs a much clearer link to the meat. At the moment,
the location of the meat is concealed in the last point "5 See Also".
To correct this is simple:
"Wiki Subject Categories" at the very bottom of the page, needs renaming
to read "Contents" and moving near the top of the page, and ""Wiki
Contents" needs renaming to read "Index" and putting just beneath
Contents.
Phil
meow...@care2.com
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:30:46 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y meow2...@care2.com
Sounds good, just done that.
> > > > The idea was to move the content in 'Main page' out, renaming it
> > > > something else, and make the 'Main page' redirect to the contents
> > > > page, this one:
> > > >http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Special:Allpages
>
> > > No the default "main page" needs to tell the user what the wiki is about
> > > and then lead them to indexes and/or search methods.
> > > But it's not an "introduction" it's just a list of articles. Nothing about
> > > why or where those articals have come from.
>
> > I'm unsure why you think that imoprtant to a first time visitor. Task
> > number 1 is always for them to be able to read whatever article they
> > want - a list of all the articles does that - as would your list of
> > categories.
>
> *some* people go to an information source to look something up; many
> others go there to learn about the whole subject, or to find out what
> the subject encompasses. E.g. "I've just bought a house, I want to look
> into this DIY lark I've heard about".
of course. And a list of all articles is ideal for that. If its
presented as a list of categories people will read some but die of
boredom fairly soon.
> > If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a
> > wiki article, I want to read the article.
>
> Obviously!!
>
> > Anything else is just waffle
> > to me at that point - certainly it has its place, but its not what I
> > want to read first, and if an article listed on the front page
> > addresses what the wiki's about I can read it when I want to -
> > probably after I've got the diy job done that I'm halfway through.
>
> As a specialist contributor, you appear to be seeing it from that POV;
> step back and think about the needs of the wider readership.
I cant agree. Unless I'm mistaken, most people find the wiki by a link
in a ukdiy thread, and at that point what they want to read is just
that article. Then maybe they get curious, and want to see what else
is there. Allpages immediately shows the wide range of stuff the wiki
covers, and the amount of info there is.
Then there are those that find it by other means, and want a general
read up on diy. Again the same applies for allpages.
A person can get into the wiki from any page, whether its the present
main page, allpages, categories, anywhere. It seems from this thread
that diferent approaches suit different learner styles, so lets offer
them all, and give them a choice of all of them on the Main Page. Lets
point them to all of allpages, categories, and a structured page yet
to be written.
> > > The basics appears to be there already, it just needs some sorting out.
> > > The 50 odd categories just need something (a template?) to bring them into
> > > a more manageable/structred list form for display. The main categories
> > > Plumbing, Heating, Electrics, Lighting, Building etc already exist.
>
> > No-one is currently doing what you two want, but I daresay it will
> > happen. Hence I propose to make the main page article redirect to the
> > contents page as an improvement-for-now move, and we can await the
> > appearance of a more structured option.
>
> No, the main page needs to remain as an introduction as Dave L
> describes, but it needs a much clearer link to the meat. At the moment,
> the location of the meat is concealed in the last point "5 See Also".
fixed hopefully
NT
Phil Addison
wrote:
> On Aug 15, 11:07 pm, Phil Addison <edi...@diyfaq.org.uk> wrote:
> > To correct this is simple:
> > "Wiki Subject Categories" at the very bottom of the page, needs renaming
> > to read "Contents" and moving near the top of the page, and ""Wiki
> > Contents" needs renaming to read "Index" and putting just beneath
> > Contents.
> >
> > Phil
>
> Sounds good, just done that.
Hasn't appeared as yet
> > As a specialist contributor, you appear to be seeing it from that POV;
> > step back and think about the needs of the wider readership.
>
> I cant agree. Unless I'm mistaken, most people find the wiki by a link
> in a ukdiy thread,
I think you're mistaken; grunff has said there is a large amount of
traffic on it, so I assume that indicates significant hits from search
engines.
> and at that point what they want to read is just
> that article. Then maybe they get curious, and want to see what else
> is there. Allpages immediately shows the wide range of stuff the wiki
> covers, and the amount of info there is.
and on the 'against' side, it shows a disorganised mish-mash of titles.
Personally it would put me off exploring further, in fact it did - I
visited the allpages and categories page several times before I deciding
I better take the time to see what is really in there, and still find it
painfull navigating it.
> Then there are those that find it by other means, and want a general
> read up on diy. Again the same applies for allpages.
>
> A person can get into the wiki from any page, whether its the present
> main page, allpages, categories, anywhere. It seems from this thread
> that diferent approaches suit different learner styles, so lets offer
> them all, and give them a choice of all of them on the Main Page. Lets
> point them to all of allpages, categories, and a structured page yet
> to be written.
Agreed, but please use conventional book terms, Contents and Index, not
the obscure wiki terms Allpages/Categories. And retain the intro
material on the page.
When in a bookshop choosing a book (non-fiction) from amongst several,
what order do you look at these - the back cover, the Contents List, the
Index? Why do publishers put the index near the back? Is the contents
list hierarchical? why?
> > No, the main page needs to remain as an introduction as Dave L
> > describes, but it needs a much clearer link to the meat. At the moment,
> > the location of the meat is concealed in the last point "5 See Also".
>
> fixed hopefully
not seen a change yet :)
Phil
Dave Liquorice
>> If I'm new to the wiki, and I've been given a link from uk.diy to a
>> wiki article, I want to read the article.
>
> Obviously!!
And if the link doesn't take them to that article it is the fault of the
person providing the link not the wiki.
> No, the main page needs to remain as an introduction as Dave L
> describes, but it needs a much clearer link to the meat. At the moment,
> the location of the meat is concealed in the last point "5 See Also".
Agreed. I don't know the structure of the categories/sub-categories within
the UK DIY wiki well enough to know which ones would make sensible choices
for the top level ones to be included into a template to display them in a
logical manner, rather than the huge single list of the special page.
Here is some sample code for a wiki template:
<p>'''All Categories available:'''</p>
<p>
{|cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="0"
|-
|[[:Category:Electrical|Electrical]]||Things that bangen and sparken
|-
|[[:Category:Plumbing|Plumbing]]||Splish, splash, splosh!
|-
|[[:Category:Building|Building]]||Crash, bang, wallop
|-
|[[:Category:Tools|Tools]]||Ouch! My fingers
|-
|[[:Category:Heating|Heating]]||Ah, nice and warm...
|}
</p>
This is easy to change and maintain, bear in mind the top level categories
aren't going to change much, if at all. Sub-categories could be entered
under the relevant main category and made to look like sub-categories with
a bit of simple formating, say by using <ul>...</ul> and fontsize
tweaking.
--
Cheers
Dave.
meow...@care2.com
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:49:28 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y meow2...@care2.com
ok, fixed.
What you say just confirms one thing: different people have different
learning styles, and we would be best with all 3 approaches in place.
NT
meow...@care2.com
wrote:
OK, we already have a categories page and an allpages, which I've now
renamed 'contents by category' and 'index'. What shall we call this
heirarchical access page?
NT
Dave Liquorice
> OK, we already have a categories page and an allpages, which I've now
> renamed 'contents by category' and 'index'. What shall we call this
> heirarchical access page?
It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on
the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page.
Like a similar template is used on the IBS wiki:
http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Main_Page
In the right hand box.
http://wiki.ibs.org.uk/faq/index.php?title=Category:Equipment
At the top just below the main title line. Also shows how this fits on a
category page when sub-categores exist.
If you want to change the list you make the edit in the template and the
change is reflected where ever that template is used through out the wiki.
The IBS wiki has a few templates for setting up tables so they all have a
consistent "look and feel" without to remember the details, just include
the relevant template.
To include a template use {{<template_name>}}.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Phil Addison
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
> It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on
> the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page.
That's better than I hoped for, will make it much more user friendly.
Phil
Phil Addison
wrote:
> On Aug 16, 12:44 am, Phil Addison <edi...@diyfaq.org.uk> wrote:
> > On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:49:28 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y meow2...@care2.com
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Aug 15, 11:07 pm, Phil Addison <edi...@diyfaq.org.uk> wrote:
> > > > To correct this is simple:
> > > > "Wiki Subject Categories" at the very bottom of the page, needs renaming
> > > > to read "Contents" and moving near the top of the page, and ""Wiki
> > > > Contents" needs renaming to read "Index" and putting just beneath
> > > > Contents.
> >
> >
> > > fixed hopefully
> >
> > not seen a change yet :)
>
> ok, fixed.
>
> What you say just confirms one thing: different people have different
> learning styles, and we would be best with all 3 approaches in place.
Seems so. You've fixed 2 of them, and DL's template idea will enable the
3rd.
Phil
meow...@care2.com
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:01 +0100 (BST), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice"
>
> > It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on
> > the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page.
>
> That's better than I hoped for, will make it much more user friendly.
>
> Phil
It sounds great, but for 1 big but. Having looked at the categories we
have on the wiki I dont see any way they can be shoehorned into a
heirarchical system without a great deal of duplication and including
things of questionable relevance.
So that leaves 2 options for this heirarchical approach:
1. Keep it simple, but it then leaves half of the articles and
(sub)cats out
2. Make it comprehensive, and you get a thing too big to be on
anything but its own page.
The other option of course is to do both. No reason why not.
Maybe you 2 could help with heiraching the present categories, as I
looked and couldnt see how to do it. Here's what we have on the wiki
today:
Access (3 links)
Adhesives (10 links)
Appliances (21 links)
Bad Ideas (13 links)
Basics (16 links)
Bathrooms (14 links)
Batteries (9 links)
Building (24 links)
Car (1 links)
Cleaning (12 links)
Clothing (1 links)
Computing (7 links)
Construction (18 links)
Cooling (6 links)
Damp (6 links)
Decorating (7 links)
Domestic Hot Water (18 links)
Doors (5 links)
Electrical (73 links)
Energy Efficiency (26 links)
Fault Finding (18 links)
Fire (9 links)
Fixings (16 links)
Floors (15 links)
Furniture (8 links)
Garbage (3 links)
Glazing (8 links)
Glossary (3 links)
Hard Surfacing (5 links)
Heating (34 links)
Humour (7 links)
Insulation (4 links)
Kitchens (10 links)
Laundry (4 links)
Legal (8 links)
Lighting (24 links)
Links Pages (53 links)
Masonry (1 links)
Materials (15 links)
Metal (16 links)
Mortar (12 links)
Noise (10 links)
Paint (12 links)
Paths (1 links)
Period Property (13 links)
Pests (3 links)
Plastering (4 links)
Plastics (16 links)
Plumbing (39 links)
Projects (13 links)
Public domain images (128 links)
Repair (7 links)
Review (5 links)
Roofing (5 links)
Safety (12 links)
Save Money (12 links)
Security (5 links)
Sheds (2 links)
Shelving Units (2 links)
Software (2 links)
Solar (5 links)
Stone (1 links)
Storage (9 links)
Substandard (1 links)
Supplies (4 links)
TV (8 links)
Tiling (1 links)
Tools (44 links)
Wiki (4 links)
Windows (8 links)
Wood (51 lin
Now I can spot some immediate high level ones, such as:
Construction or building
Wood
Decorating
Supplies
Tools
Electrical
Storage
Roofing
Projects
Plumbing
Heating
Glazing
Fault finding or repair
Electrical
Hot water
Damp
Cleaning
Appliances
But how would you distribute the other cats as children of the above
parent groups? And what would you do with the cats that dont really
clearly fit anywhere in particular on a heirarchy?
NT
Phil Addison
wrote:
> On Aug 17, 1:05 am, Phil Addison <edi...@diyfaq.org.uk> wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:01 +0100 (BST), in uk.d-i-y "Dave Liquorice"
> >
> > <allsortsnotthis...@howhill.com> wrote:
> > > It's not a page but a template to be included in any page. I'd suggest on
> > > the somewhere on "main page" and at the top of each main category page.
> >
> > That's better than I hoped for, will make it much more user friendly.
> >
> > Phil
>
> It sounds great, but for 1 big but. Having looked at the categories we
> have on the wiki I dont see any way they can be shoehorned into a
> heirarchical system without a great deal of duplication and including
> things of questionable relevance.
I just looked too, and its a mess!! 380 odd articles. A good number have
been allocated to categories, but hardly in a hierarchical way. There
are also a number of redundant/empty or near duplicate pages, eg Thermal
Store, Thermal Stores, Thermal store. Also DHW and Domestic Hot Water. I
suppose it IS possible to delete the surplus ones?
> So that leaves 2 options for this heirarchical approach:
> 1. Keep it simple, but it then leaves half of the articles and
> (sub)cats out
> 2. Make it comprehensive, and you get a thing too big to be on
> anything but its own page.
Doesn't matter if the contents list is big. I envisage it will need
scrolling down to see it all. I'm hoping sub-sub-categories can be
implemented somehow.
Dave L, can we nest your templates inside each other?
> The other option of course is to do both. No reason why not.
>
>
> Maybe you 2 could help with heiraching the present categories, as I
> looked and couldnt see how to do it.
OK, I have spent a couple of hours looking at it. If you look at the doc
I referenced previously, and you are MS Word compatible, you can view it
in Outline Mode (sorry I should have mentioned that earlier - it makes
more sense when you set it to view just the top 2-3 levels).
I have copied the all cats list into one doc, and it easy (but tedious)
to drag each from there into the correct place in the outline doc, and
easy to re-organise the hierarchy as you go.
IF nested templates are possible its then a trivial (but tedious) job to
convert the word doc hierarchy to a wiki page. If not, I'm not sure what
to do, maybe resort to html?
My doc starts at an even higher level :)
> But how would you distribute the other cats as children of the above
> parent groups?
Hopefully sub-sub-categories.
> And what would you do with the cats that dont really
> clearly fit anywhere in particular on a heirarchy?
That means your top level hierarchy is inadequate.
See my doc
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.doc. I'll
spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something
to show tonight, if not in a couple of days.
Phil
meow...@care2.com
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:55:37 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y meow2...@care2.com
> spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something
> to show tonight, if not in a couple of days.
>
> Phil
Unfortunately I cant view the .doc for some reason. I think we may be
talking at cross purposes here though. I dont see too much difficulty
in creating a heirarchical page structure, where I see the problem is
in deciding what subcats go where. If you think its easy, go right
ahead :)
NT
Phil Addison
wrote:
> On Aug 17, 3:55 pm, Phil Addison <edi...@diyfaq.org.uk> wrote:
> Unfortunately I cant view the .doc for some reason. I think we may be
> talking at cross purposes here though. I dont see too much difficulty
> in creating a heirarchical page structure, where I see the problem is
> in deciding what subcats go where. If you think its easy, go right
> ahead :)
There is also a pdf on the site at
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.pdf but it
is fixed at the fully expanded hierarchy so not so convenient.
I'll email you a copy of the Word doc, and also the one I'm working on
if you give me a valid address - send it to the addy above. I'm using
Word 2003 but it should open in earlier ones, in fact I think the one on
the site was Word 97.
Phil
Dave Liquorice
> There is also a pdf on the site at
> http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.pdf but it
> is fixed at the fully expanded hierarchy so not so convenient.
Does the fully expanded one actually include real article titles? It looks
as if it does. I can't really imagine that there are a dozen or so pages
relating to Central Heating > Design, Installation, Setting up > Pipework
> Copper > Small Bore (15, 22, 28mm).
I should think the category levels can stop at Pipework.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
> I just looked too, and its a mess!! 380 odd articles. A good number have
> been allocated to categories, but hardly in a hierarchical way. There
> are also a number of redundant/empty or near duplicate pages, eg Thermal
> Store, Thermal Stores, Thermal store. Also DHW and Domestic Hot Water.
Yerk I haven't looked that closely, those pages need merging and the
redundant ones deleting, yes pages can be deleted but perhaps not a normal
user access level.
> Dave L, can we nest your templates inside each other?
I think a template can call another, I've not tried. However I'd sort of
try an avoid that as it could easily make maintenance difficult. Lets
start with just the top level categories and if it's felt that
sub-categories would be useful they can be added later. Remember any
category pages shows the sub-categories of that page.
> Hopefully sub-sub-categories.
I'm also wary of getting to deep with levels. A sort of rule of thumb of
when a sub-category might be required would be if the article list section
of a category page could not be shown completely. People don't scroll
pages unless they really have to.
> See my doc
> http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.doc. I'll
> spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something
> to show tonight, if not in a couple of days.
I'm happy to take a hierachy and produce a wiki template from it. Let me
know when it has stabilised. B-)
--
Cheers
Dave.
meow...@care2.com
wrote:
Nice one.
Phil's pdf looks like a great start. Personally I'd like to limit the
depth of the levels, and probably not list any individual articles but
end up directing the user to the applicable wiki category. More or
less everything on that list has a wiki category, and new cats can
always be created.
Phil I can dl your doc file no prob, but opening it things go wrong.
If you wanted to post it in plain text I'd be happy to work on it, see
if we can move toward the finished article.
NT
Dave Liquorice
> Phil's pdf looks like a great start. Personally I'd like to limit the
> depth of the levels, and probably not list any individual articles but
> end up directing the user to the applicable wiki category.
That is the idea, it's just an index to the categories and possibly
sub-categories.
My view at this stage is no more than 3 levels deep, any deeper to my mind
indicates to much refinement. The idea is to build a trail for people to
follow down to get to a category with up to a dozen or so articles on that
topic. If a category only has 2 or 3 articles in it then that category may
not be required or could be combined with another.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Phil Addison
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:55:11 GMT, Phil Addison wrote:
>
> > I just looked too, and its a mess!! 380 odd articles. A good number have
> > been allocated to categories, but hardly in a hierarchical way. There
> > are also a number of redundant/empty or near duplicate pages, eg Thermal
> > Store, Thermal Stores, Thermal store. Also DHW and Domestic Hot Water.
>
> Yerk I haven't looked that closely, those pages need merging and the
> redundant ones deleting, yes pages can be deleted but perhaps not a normal
> user access level.
For now, i'll just mark those as needing to be sorted out.
> > Dave L, can we nest your templates inside each other?
>
> I think a template can call another, I've not tried. However I'd sort of
> try an avoid that as it could easily make maintenance difficult. Lets
> start with just the top level categories and if it's felt that
> sub-categories would be useful they can be added later. Remember any
> category pages shows the sub-categories of that page.
I don't quite see what your getting at, the whole idea of making it a
hierarchical structure is to have things nested. I can't see how putting
one template call inside another will create a huge problem, but if it
does the same thing can be done in html, in fact that may be easier with
an html savvy editor to make it clear whats within what.
> > Hopefully sub-sub-categories.
>
> I'm also wary of getting to deep with levels. A sort of rule of thumb of
> when a sub-category might be required would be if the article list section
> of a category page could not be shown completely. People don't scroll
> pages unless they really have to.
See response to your other post. I agree we don't want text for any
level sprawling over several screens. OTOH we don't want to artificially
sub-diivide a chapter to limit its content to 1 screen. A good hierarchy
would balance those points.
> > See my doc
> > http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.doc. I'll
> > spend some more time on the 'shoehorning' process - may have something
> > to show tonight, if not in a couple of days.
>
> I'm happy to take a hierachy and produce a wiki template from it. Let me
> know when it has stabilised. B-)
Great, thanks, will do.
Phil
Phil Addison
wrote:
> Phil's pdf looks like a great start. Personally I'd like to limit the
> depth of the levels, and probably not list any individual articles but
> end up directing the user to the applicable wiki category. More or
> less everything on that list has a wiki category, and new cats can
> always be created.
See my comments to DL's post.
> Phil I can dl your doc file no prob, but opening it things go wrong.
> If you wanted to post it in plain text I'd be happy to work on it, see
> if we can move toward the finished article.
The pdf content is identical to a plain text dump, but I have done a
fair bit of work on it since that outline which is a few years old. I'll
hopefully complete a new version over the next couple of days and see
what you think of it.
Rather than downloading the doc, I just dbl-click on the url and it
opens in word; you might get better luck with that, otherwise I can mail
you the current in-work version. If d/l-ing it you have to treat it as a
binary file not txt, maybe thats the prob. I prolly have my puter setup
for firefox to open docs in word rather than wordpad.
Phil
Phil Addison
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:44:16 GMT, Phil Addison wrote:
>
> > There is also a pdf on the site at
> > http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/beta/FAQ_Prospective_Contents_List.pdf but it
> > is fixed at the fully expanded hierarchy so not so convenient.
>
> Does the fully expanded one actually include real article titles? It looks
> as if it does.
By 'fully expanded' I simply meant that is showing everything that is in
the document, i.e. nothing folded as can be done in the MS doc version.
Its basically the same as a txt version.
> I can't really imagine that there are a dozen or so pages
> relating to Central Heating > Design, Installation, Setting up > Pipework
> > Copper > Small Bore (15, 22, 28mm).
I'm not claiming the hierarchy in it is either complete or the best one,
it was just given as a proposal for others to comment on - no one did!!
:( This was some time ago.
I just started at the top level and drilled down through the tasks
subdividing as seemed appropriate. I figure the best hierarchy is one
where you minimize the number of tasks that could fit into more than one
place.
> I should think the category levels can stop at Pipework.
Best to postpone that decision. A good hierarchy will have the branches
more or less equal sized, so if you find one section drilling down a lot
deeper than others its probably time to re-think if the higher levels
could be done better.
If you don't go deep enough you have a category spilling over several
screens, e.g. with only 1 category (the diy wiki) you would have 384
linear items.
Phil
meow...@care2.com
> On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 13:40:57 -0700 (PDT), in uk.d-i-y meow2...@care2.com
Alright, let me keep it short: if you post it in plain text, which is
a file with .txt ending, I'll see what I can do.
NT